18:57:52 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aapi
18:57:52 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/04/01-aapi-irc
18:57:54 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
18:57:54 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aapi
18:57:56 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
18:57:56 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(AAPI)3:00PM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
18:57:57 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
18:57:57 <trackbot> Date: 01 April 2014
18:58:50 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(AAPI)3:00PM has now started
18:58:57 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
18:59:07 <clown> zakim GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:59:14 <clown> zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:59:14 <Zakim> +Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it
18:59:21 <clown> zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:59:21 <Zakim> ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:59:30 <clown> chair:  Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:59:39 <clown> agenda: this
18:59:58 <clown> agenda+ (All) Update re: relevant aria-* attributes using selectors for referencing other nodes: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Mar/0091.html
19:00:17 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1369 (David): Investigate FF implementation of aria-live removal events (see also ISSUE-481).
19:00:18 <Zakim> +Bryan_Garaventa
19:00:28 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1408 (Joseph): Email Jason Kiss re: AAPI that describes API differences.
19:00:41 <clown> agenda+ ISSUE-583 (Joseph):  Update regarding status.
19:00:50 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1409 (Joanie):  File a bug against ATK re:  adding position, level, and other API.
19:01:00 <clown> agenda+ ISSUE-645 (All): Remove 'checkable' object attribute from aria-pressed mappings.
19:01:01 <Zakim> +Joanie_Diggs
19:01:02 <davidb> davidb has joined #aapi
19:01:09 <bgaraventa1979> bgaraventa1979 has joined #aapi
19:01:12 <clown> agenda+ ISSUE-628 (Cynthia): Forward compatibility for states and properties with respect to browsers.
19:01:24 <clown> agenda+ 1.1 ISSUES and ACTIONS: (All)  Start with ACTION-842, https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/842
19:01:31 <clown> agenda+ be done.
19:01:32 <bgaraventa1979> zakim, aaaa is Bryan_Garaventa
19:01:32 <Zakim> sorry, bgaraventa1979, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
19:01:49 <clown> RRSAgent, make log public
19:01:49 <Zakim> + +1.416.848.aaaa
19:01:58 <bgaraventa1979> zakim, I am Bryan_Garaventa
19:01:58 <Zakim> ok, bgaraventa1979, I now associate you with Bryan_Garaventa
19:02:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/01-aapi-minutes.html clown
19:02:19 <clown> zakim, who's here?
19:02:19 <Zakim> On the phone I see Joseph_Scheuhammer, Bryan_Garaventa, Joanie_Diggs, +1.416.848.aaaa
19:02:22 <Zakim> On IRC I see bgaraventa1979, davidb, Zakim, RRSAgent, clown, MichaelC, joanie, trackbot
19:02:35 <davidb> Zakim, 1.416.848.aaaa is David_Bolter
19:02:35 <Zakim> sorry, davidb, I do not recognize a party named '1.416.848.aaaa'
19:02:46 <davidb> Zakim, aaaa is David_Bolter
19:02:46 <Zakim> +David_Bolter; got it
19:02:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/01-aapi-minutes.html clown
19:03:45 <joanie> ScribeNick: joanie
19:04:14 <joanie> regrets Cynthia Shelly
19:04:24 <clown> zakim, agenda?
19:04:24 <Zakim> I see 9 items remaining on the agenda:
19:04:25 <Zakim> 1. (All) Update re: relevant aria-* attributes using selectors for referencing other nodes: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Mar/0091.html [from clown]
19:04:25 <Zakim> 2. ACTION-1369 (David): Investigate FF implementation of aria-live removal events (see also ISSUE-481). [from clown]
19:04:25 <Zakim> 3. ACTION-1408 (Joseph): Email Jason Kiss re: AAPI that describes API differences. [from clown]
19:04:25 <Zakim> 4. ISSUE-583 (Joseph):  Update regarding status. [from clown]
19:04:28 <Zakim> 5. ACTION-1409 (Joanie):  File a bug against ATK re:  adding position, level, and other API. [from clown]
19:04:28 <Zakim> 6. ISSUE-645 (All): Remove 'checkable' object attribute from aria-pressed mappings. [from clown]
19:04:28 <Zakim> 7. ISSUE-628 (Cynthia): Forward compatibility for states and properties with respect to browsers. [from clown]
19:04:28 <Zakim> 8. 1.1 ISSUES and ACTIONS: (All)  Start with ACTION-842, https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/842 [from clown]
19:04:29 <Zakim> 9. be done. [from clown]
19:04:38 <clown> zakim, take up item 1
19:04:38 <Zakim> agendum 1. "(All) Update re: relevant aria-* attributes using selectors for referencing other nodes: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Mar/0091.html" taken up
19:04:41 <Zakim> ... [from clown]
19:05:02 <joanie> JS: Wanted to bring everyone up to date who wasn't on the call yesterday
19:05:27 <joanie> JS: There was a request from Dominic from Google, not specifically to do with web components
19:05:51 <joanie> JS: but how to provide access to shadow DOMs because you cannot use an ID
19:06:02 <joanie> JS: because the shadow DOM is sandboxed
19:06:19 <joanie> JS: document.querySelector
19:06:36 <joanie> JS: Function from DOM4 (not sure, might be DOM3)
19:07:08 <joanie> JS: There is a discussion to let aria attributes with an ID ref to work with active-descendant
19:07:26 <joanie> JS: Discussion between javascript versus selection syntax run in the browser
19:07:46 <joanie> JS: just like CSS selectors
19:07:49 <joanie> DB: Did Dominic provide examples?
19:08:00 <joanie> JS: My recollection is no, but he's beginning to put that out on the lists now.
19:08:13 <joanie> JS: Today I saw something from an actual project he's working on
19:08:55 <clown> http://www.polymer-project.org/
19:09:01 <joanie> JS: Here's the URL (above)
19:09:21 <joanie> JS: (quotes from the email Dominic sent about polymer and these sorts of examples)
19:09:48 <joanie> JS: And Rich brought up an example in which the relation/reference could go both ways
19:10:07 <joanie> DB: I am happy that Dominic is putting energy toward solving this
19:10:18 <joanie> BG: I like the selector method better than the javascript method
19:10:25 <joanie> BG: because it is more clear
19:10:58 <joanie> DB: My gut reaction is to agree with you Bryan
19:11:11 <joanie> JS: And Rich wants to get this for 1.1, I think
19:11:19 <joanie> DB: When is 1.1's target?
19:11:24 <joanie> JS: April 2016
19:11:34 <joanie> DB: April 1st! :)
19:11:49 <joanie> JS: Realize we started the final ARIA 1.0 push in late October 2013
19:12:03 <joanie> JS: That's almost half a year, just to push the document through the whole process
19:12:25 <joanie> JS: In order to release it by April 2016, it has to be done by November 2015. That's not too bad.
19:12:55 <joanie> BG: They were unclear about selectors referencing one or multiple IDs.
19:13:04 <joanie> BG: It might be important to distinguish
19:13:14 <joanie> DB: It would be important for us all to do the same thing
19:13:26 <joanie> JS: What's the status of shadow DOM in Firefox?
19:13:32 <joanie> DB: I'm not sure
19:13:49 <joanie> JS: Your example was great
19:14:09 <joanie> JS: (describes example of video player where all the controls are in the shadow DOM)
19:14:22 <joanie> JS: So if you actually look at the document, you don't see any buttons to push
19:14:33 <joanie> BG: You don't see that a checkbox is checked
19:14:50 <joanie> JS: The difference is that it looks totally different depending on which browser you use
19:15:02 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 2
19:15:02 <Zakim> agendum 2. "ACTION-1369 (David): Investigate FF implementation of aria-live removal events (see also ISSUE-481)." taken up [from clown]
19:15:14 <clown> action-1369?
19:15:14 <trackbot> action-1369 -- David Bolter to Investigate implementation of aria-live region events in FF -- due 2014-02-25 -- OPEN
19:15:14 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1369
19:15:15 <joanie> DB: I haven't done it yet.
19:15:36 <joanie> DB: We also had agreed that it wasn't high priority.
19:16:02 <joanie> (Group reads over issue above)
19:16:40 <joanie> DB: Let's go with April 15th.
19:16:48 <joanie> JS: (changes the ticket)
19:17:06 <joanie> DB: I might have questions.
19:17:07 <clown> issue-481?
19:17:07 <trackbot> issue-481 -- aria-live removal events should or must happen before object removal -- open
19:17:07 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/481
19:17:33 <joanie> JS: Yeah, it's changing the SHOULD to a MUST.
19:17:50 <joanie> JS: What possible reason would one have to not let an AT know something is going away?
19:18:24 <joanie> JS: All your action is: What does Firefox do now?
19:18:32 <joanie> DB: I'm 99% sure we made the change to make this work.
19:18:42 <joanie> DB: It actually was non-trivial.
19:19:17 <davidb> but code churn may have happened since
19:19:49 <joanie> JS: I will do something when I get some answers from somebody.
19:20:09 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 3
19:20:09 <Zakim> agendum 3. "ACTION-1408 (Joseph): Email Jason Kiss re: AAPI that describes API differences." taken up [from clown]
19:20:41 <joanie> JS: I was going to do it as soon as I did the agenda.
19:20:58 <clown> action-1408?
19:20:58 <trackbot> action-1408 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Send email to jason kiss to ask him if he could write an aapi section that describes api differences. -- due 2014-04-01 -- OPEN
19:20:58 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1408
19:21:19 <joanie> JS: It's due today. I will change it to a week from today.
19:21:32 <joanie> DB: I wonder if we should add a role to ATK and IA2.
19:21:40 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 4
19:21:40 <Zakim> agendum 4. "ISSUE-583 (Joseph):  Update regarding status." taken up [from clown]
19:21:43 <davidb> s/add a role/add a role description/
19:21:52 <clown> issue-583?
19:21:52 <trackbot> issue-583 -- Elements that are descendants of an element having aria-activedescendant should not all be focusable -- open
19:21:52 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/583
19:22:14 <joanie> JS: When we left this off a week ago, I was trying to find the test case.
19:22:25 <joanie> JS: We concluded that this is finished and we could just close this issue.
19:22:36 <joanie> JS: There's enough info in the UAIG
19:22:40 <clown> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/testcases/edit?testsuite_id=1&testcase_id=784
19:22:41 <joanie> JS: But I cannot find the test case
19:22:53 <joanie> JS: The URL in the issue (above) doesn't seem to exist
19:23:09 <joanie> JS: I ended up seeing email to Rich and Michael asking, "Where is this test case?"
19:23:18 <joanie> JS: It's going to stay open until I find this test case.
19:23:23 <joanie> JS: I think it is going to work though
19:24:00 <joanie> DB: I'm trying to read the issue
19:24:06 <joanie> JS: I'll try to summarize the issue
19:24:22 <joanie> JS: Rich brings up that in an active-descendant case there should be some restrictions on what should be focusable
19:24:38 <joanie> JS: Because there can be all sorts of descendants which may be, for example, descriptive
19:24:50 <joanie> JS: But the UAIG says it has to have an ID and a role
19:25:07 <clown> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation-1.1/#keyboard-focus_aria-activedescendant
19:25:11 <joanie> JS: (to David) You and I asked Alex about this and he said, "yes."
19:25:21 <joanie> JS: If you go down to step 4 (in the above)
19:25:28 <joanie> JS: 4a in particular
19:25:37 <joanie> DB: So this is about the focusable state?
19:25:39 <joanie> JS: Yes
19:26:03 <joanie> DB: So it's a heuristic to determine which objects should have state focusable
19:26:27 <clown> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1222
19:26:45 <joanie> JS: (to David) Look at the above issue. And read the note.
19:27:19 <joanie> JS: I want to make sure the test case actually works (i.e. before I close it). Because Rich cites a test case.
19:28:52 <joanie> i maybe gone
19:28:54 <joanie> i hear nothing
19:29:02 <davidb> i don't hear you either
19:29:08 <davidb> but 3:30! :)
19:29:11 <joanie> ha
19:29:14 <joanie> calling back in
19:29:15 <clown> likewise, I don't hear joanie, but I do hear davidb.
19:29:15 <joanie> sorry
19:29:18 <davidb> np
19:29:23 <Zakim> -Joanie_Diggs
19:30:00 <Zakim> -David_Bolter
19:30:27 <Zakim> +Joanie_Diggs
19:30:35 <bgaraventa1979> bgaraventa1979 has joined #aapi
19:30:49 <joanie> ScribeNick: Joanie
19:31:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/01-aapi-minutes.html clown
19:31:04 <bgaraventa1979> zakim, aaaa is Bryan_Garaventa
19:31:04 <Zakim> sorry, bgaraventa1979, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
19:31:13 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 5
19:31:13 <Zakim> agendum 5. "ACTION-1409 (Joanie):  File a bug against ATK re:  adding position, level, and other API." taken up [from clown]
19:31:34 <clown> action-1409?
19:31:34 <bgaraventa1979> zakim, I am Bryan_Garaventa
19:31:34 <Zakim> ok, bgaraventa1979, I now associate you with Bryan_Garaventa
19:31:34 <trackbot> action-1409 -- Joanmarie Diggs to File a bug against atk in gnome's bugzilla requesting new position, level, and other api be added. -- due 2014-04-01 -- OPEN
19:31:34 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1409
19:31:40 <joanie> JD: I did my action item. There is a bug filed in GNOME's bugzilla
19:31:44 <clown> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=727453
19:34:41 <joanie> JD: I am not anticipating much discussion, but there may be some.
19:35:19 <joanie> JD: I want to ping the Gtk+ accessibility developer because I think this will solve some issues he pointed out to me.
19:35:27 <joanie> JS: So do we close this issue out?
19:35:49 <joanie> JD: No, I'd like to keep it open in case there is subsequent discussion that requires our input.
19:37:19 <clown> action-1409?
19:37:19 <trackbot> action-1409 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Monitor progress of bug against atk in gnome's bugzilla requesting new position, level, and other api be added (https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=727453) -- due 2014-04-15 -- OPEN
19:37:19 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1409
19:37:35 <joanie> davidb: it's to get rid of 30 crazy things for implementors :)
19:38:08 <davidb> joanie: you don't like object attributes eh? :)
19:38:17 <davidb> we've crammed too much
19:38:21 <clown> davidb, you are correct, sir.
19:38:48 <joanie> JD: The whole point of this new API, as was discussed last week, is not only to simplify things for implementors
19:38:51 <davidb> up oh those ":"'s are gonna look like speakers
19:39:07 <joanie> JD: But also because ATs don't give a _____ where it came from, they just want the answer consistently.
19:39:41 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 6
19:39:41 <Zakim> agendum 6. "ISSUE-645 (All): Remove 'checkable' object attribute from aria-pressed mappings." taken up [from clown]
19:39:50 <clown> issue-645?
19:39:50 <trackbot> issue-645 -- remove 'checkable' object attribute requirement from aria-pressed mapping requirements -- open
19:39:50 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/645
19:39:58 <joanie> JS: I wish more people were here now. :)
19:40:12 <joanie> JS: If you look at the issue, there is an aria-pressed attribute
19:40:51 <joanie> JS: And the current UAIG says that if it has true or false, the checkable object attribute must be present
19:41:01 <clown> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation-1.1/#mapping_state-property_table
19:43:50 <joanie> JS: I can confirm that aria-pressed only applies to toggle buttons
19:44:10 <joanie> JS: So I agree with Alex that checkable is redundant
19:45:00 <joanie> JS: I am willing to take it out of the UAIG for all but Apple (because it's not there for Apple)
19:45:16 <joanie> BG: iOS used to say "checked" for toggle buttons
19:45:33 <joanie> JS: There is no issue with UIA
19:45:48 <joanie> JS: So the action is to remove the "checkable" from ATK and IA2
19:46:31 <joanie> JD: I agree with this decision because it is not only redundant, but it should eliminate extraneous state-changed events that currently have to be filtered out by the AT.
19:46:59 <joanie> JS: I want David's opinion, but he'll probably agree because Alex has already removed this from Firefox (if I read this correctly)
19:47:11 <joanie> JS: Oh, it's not closed yet.
19:47:25 <joanie> JS: There's been activity.
19:47:40 <clown> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=825114
19:47:55 <clown> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=825114#c11
19:50:35 <joanie> (Discussion about the issue and differences in ATK and IA2 w.r.t toggle buttons)
19:51:21 <clown> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=989958
19:53:36 <joanie> JS: Marco is "stealing" the former bug (825114) to fix it in the newer but (989958)
19:53:57 <bgaraventa1979> I like getting rid of checkable within toggle buttons
19:55:49 <joanie> JS: There's no due date on issues, so let's wait until this is definitely closed.
19:56:00 <joanie> BG: (agrees with getting rid of it)
19:56:10 <joanie> JS: Joseph will get rid of it
19:56:45 <clown> action:  Joseph to modify IA2 and ATK/AT-SPI mappings for aria-presssed to remove "expose object attribute checkable:true".
19:56:46 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1418 - Modify ia2 and atk/at-spi mappings for aria-presssed to remove "expose object attribute checkable:true". [on Joseph Scheuhammer - due 2014-04-08].
19:56:52 <clown> action-1418?
19:56:53 <trackbot> action-1418 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Modify ia2 and atk/at-spi mappings for aria-presssed to remove "expose object attribute checkable:true". -- due 2014-04-08 -- OPEN
19:56:53 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1418
19:58:48 <clown> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation-1.1/#mapping_events_state-change
20:00:08 <joanie> JS: The problem was that "checkable:true" was present for toggle buttons
20:00:43 <joanie> JS: But if the state changed on that toggle button, the state-changed event was for the "pressed" state and not the "checked" state.
20:00:59 <joanie> JS: At the moment, aria-pressed is only used on toggle buttons
20:01:17 <joanie> JS: But I can imagine it being applicable to other widgets.
20:01:31 <joanie> JS: I think the worry was that if you put aria-pressed on something that didn't have a clear role
20:01:52 <joanie> JS: You needed a way to know it could be pressed/toggled.
20:02:23 <joanie> JS: Visually... Toggle buttons, you cannot necessarily see that they are toggle-able until they are toggled.
20:02:58 <joanie> BG: JAWS and NVDA have role toggle button.
20:03:55 <clown> scribenick:  clown
20:04:10 <clown> JD:  Actually I think that mixed state on a toggle button is wrong.
20:04:20 <clown> JD:  Toggle buttons are either on or off, not mixed.
20:04:30 <clown> JS:  That's an issue with the spec, not the UAIG.
20:04:31 <bgaraventa1979> I agree, it is confusing
20:05:48 <joanie> ACTION: Joanie to investigate the validity of aria-pressed=mixed
20:05:48 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1419 - Investigate the validity of aria-pressed=mixed [on Joanmarie Diggs - due 2014-04-08].
20:07:19 <joanie> JS: There's definitely aria-checked=mixed because I wrote that section.
20:08:03 <joanie> JS: Reads the docs about the meaning of "mixed"
20:08:20 <joanie> JS: I do not see any examples of mixed-state toggle buttons; I do see them for check boxes
20:08:36 <joanie> JS: But definitely the spec provides for the existence of tri-state toggle buttons
20:08:46 <joanie> JS: So that's where you need to go if you decide to complain
20:08:50 <joanie> JD: I will complian
20:08:54 <joanie> JS: Meeting over
20:09:08 <clown> s/complian/complain/
20:09:54 <joanie> Zakim, part
20:09:54 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were Joseph_Scheuhammer, Bryan_Garaventa, Joanie_Diggs, +1.416.848.aaaa, David_Bolter
20:09:55 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aapi
20:10:26 <joanie> RRSAgent, stop