13:32:01 RRSAgent has joined #dap 13:32:01 logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/03/27-dap-irc 13:32:03 RRSAgent, make logs world 13:32:03 Zakim has joined #dap 13:32:05 Zakim, this will be DAP 13:32:05 ok, trackbot; I see UW_DAP()10:00AM scheduled to start in 28 minutes 13:32:06 Meeting: Device APIs Working Group Teleconference 13:32:06 Date: 27 March 2014 13:32:29 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2014Mar/0021.html 13:32:43 fjh has changed the topic to: dap 3279 ; agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2014Mar/0021.html 13:33:05 Chair: Frederick_Hirsch 13:33:17 Present+ Frederick_Hirsch 13:33:29 Topic: Welcome, agenda review, announcements 13:58:40 UW_DAP()10:00AM has now started 13:58:41 zakim, ipcaller is me 13:58:41 sorry, fjh, I do not recognize a party named 'ipcaller' 13:58:47 +[IPcaller] 13:58:52 zakim, ipcaller is me 13:58:52 +fjh; got it 13:58:53 anssik has joined #dap 14:01:07 richt has joined #dap 14:01:08 +??P10 14:01:12 Zakim, ??P10 is me 14:01:12 +dom; got it 14:01:49 +??P11 14:02:01 Zakim, ??P11 is mats 14:02:01 +mats; got it 14:02:06 Present+ Mats_Wichmann 14:02:37 gmandyam has joined #dap 14:02:50 +[IPcaller] 14:02:56 Present+ Rich_Tibbett 14:03:05 Present+ Anssi_Kostiainen 14:03:21 zakim, who is here? 14:03:21 On the phone I see fjh, dom, mats, richt 14:03:23 On IRC I see gmandyam, richt, anssik, Zakim, RRSAgent, fjh, mats, dom, slightlyoff_, Josh_Soref, tobie__, mounir, trackbot 14:03:43 +Cathy 14:03:48 cathy has joined #dap 14:03:52 ScribeNick: dom 14:04:09 Zakim, who's on the call? 14:04:09 On the phone I see fjh, dom, mats, richt, Cathy 14:04:16 Topic: Welcome, agenda review, scribe selection, announcements 14:04:30 Vibration API related to WebApps gamepad API, discussion http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2014Mar/0016.html 14:04:33 +gmandyam 14:04:58 Frederick: we might want to think about that at some point, but it's probably OK to leave the current API as is 14:05:11 ... I'll just notify them when we go to CR 14:05:25 that sounds good to me 14:05:28 Topic: Minutes approval 14:05:37 Approve minutes from 20 March 2014 14:05:37 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2014Mar/att-0014/minutes-2014-03-20.html 14:05:46 RESOLVED: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2014Mar/att-0014/minutes-2014-03-20.html are approved as minutes of March 20 call 14:05:59 Topic: Netinfo API 14:06:12 Frederick: we've agreed to shelve it; I'm having trouble reaching Mounir 14:06:19 ... I'm thinking to just go ahead and do it myself 14:07:48 Dom: sounds good to me 14:07:57 Present+ Cathy_Chan 14:07:59 Topic: Testing update 14:08:13 Topic: Cordova priorities 14:08:15 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2014Mar/0022.html 14:08:31 Frederick: we discuss the usefulness of priotirizing work from a Cordova perspective 14:08:36 In CR, two implementations (Blink/webkit), testing progressing (despite pull request not accepted yet), relatively straightforward spec 14:08:38 ... we have tests, implementations 14:08:49 ... for HTML MEdia Capture 14:09:00 ... next put Battery, then Light 14:09:15 q+ on light vs vibration 14:09:23 ack dom 14:09:23 dom, you wanted to comment on light vs vibration 14:09:49 dom: clarify, prioritization of alignment and contributing to tests 14:10:15 dom: ambient light has less traction than vibration which is implemented in firefox and chrome 14:10:54 ambient light implementation is happening in Chromium/Blink 14:10:55 Frederick: I'm conflating alignment and testing 14:12:41 dom: do we know if cordova will contribute to testing 14:12:54 our QA ppl are working on completing Vibration, Battery, HTML Media Capture test suites 14:14:32 dom: cordova is not using webIDL 14:15:28 Frederick: [summarizing] there is quite a bit of work for them to align with our specs 14:17:30 ... their implementations is not matching our specs at this time, but getting that alignment is separate from our Rec-track goals 14:18:16 dom: yeah, reducing fragmentation in the HTML5-apps ecosystem (incl hybrid) is a good goal, but separate from proving implementation at the CR level 14:18:20 fjh: attempting to summarize what dom said - one goal is to achieve adoption and uniform APIs which hasn't happened yet and can be quite a bit of work with code, docs etc. Another goal is to move to REC which requires W3C Process but different activity, possibly differen players 14:18:52 fjh: achieving Cordova compatibilty is a useful direction but may not contribute directly to getting to rec in the short term 14:19:58 Topic: HTML Media Capture testing 14:20:19 Frederick: I've been looking at the pull requests 14:20:43 -> http://www.w3.org/mid/F5C5CDD5-6255-4027-8B9A-B222F1A5C7DC@nokia.com Frederick on HTML Media Capture testing 14:21:13 ... still waiting for review 14:21:32 ... a comment thread in github about testability for privacy and security considerations which has normative statements 14:21:38 ... questioning whether that's appropriate 14:21:47 ... Cathy mentioned geolocation as an example 14:21:51 q+ to comment on geo as example 14:22:03 ... which has normative requirements in privacy / security 14:22:18 ... and they have related tests as well 14:22:44 ... e.g. checking for permission denied 14:23:18 ... my conclusion is that we don't have to gut the security and privacy considerations 14:23:23 ... and that we should go ahead with what we have 14:23:42 q+ to comment on normative considerations, testing of shoulds 14:24:21 ack dom 14:24:21 dom, you wanted to comment on geo as example and to comment on normative considerations, testing of shoulds 14:25:07 dom: not sure geolocation is the best model, despite my involvement 14:25:31 our QA person who wrote the test suite is waiting for +1s from reviewers or feedback on how to improve the suite if there are issues -- please let him know if there's something he can help with still 14:25:45 dom: need to consider two items: security,privacy be normative and whether to create test cases for should cases 14:25:56 q+ 14:26:16 dom: want to avoid security privacy considerations related to UI implementation 14:27:24 dom: would personally prefer non-normative, if we keep them normative then should ask about testing, prefer not to test them due to UI considerations, requiring manual testing 14:27:58 dom: processing should requirements is an issue 14:28:06 ack fjh 14:28:27 q+ re meaningful privacy 14:28:48 Frederick: I'm concerned about taking privacy seriously without having normative text on it 14:29:18 ... if privacy matters, we need to make sure it is actually taken into account in implementations 14:29:36 ... agree that testing privacy doesn't fit as cleanly 14:33:29 dom: normative requirements are for interoperability hence not approriate for privacy/security, and implementers will do what they want in this space 14:33:47 dom: important to document but not as normative requirements, can be informative 14:34:37 dom: key is to be clear on risks and way to mitigate them, cannot force implementation, misguided 14:35:04 dom: geolocation requires URL to be displayed in prompts and that requirement is not followed by any implementations, for good reasons 14:35:39 dom: be careful not to say it is not meaningful if not normative, e.g. if browser ignores threats and then exploited 14:35:48 fjh: you are making competitive implementation argument 14:36:44 +??P20 14:36:48 zakim, ??P20 is me 14:36:48 +anssik; got it 14:38:24 ACTION: dom to react on testing html media capture privacy & security considerations 14:38:25 Created ACTION-686 - React on testing html media capture privacy & security considerations [on Dominique Hazaël-Massieux - due 2014-04-03]. 14:39:00 Topic: Network Service Discovery 14:39:15 Frederick: would like to do 3 things: 14:39:26 ... * go through the issues and see whether and how to resolve them 14:39:53 ... * process around editing 14:39:59 ... * how to move forward in general 14:40:17 ... Rich, could you maybe start by describing where you think we are? 14:40:25 ... and then I could get into our editing process 14:41:03 Rich: sounds good; let's tackle high priority items first 14:41:17 Frederick: in general, does this time work for you on regular basis, rich? 14:41:19 Rich: yes: 14:41:30 Frederick: so, summary of current status and news? 14:41:43 Rich: in terms of the spec, the last major change was adding CORS a while ago 14:42:02 ... I've made some comments on the technical discussions; they can be picked up again 14:42:12 ... The main update is around intents to implement 14:42:32 ... there was one intent in Chromium/Blink which started some of the changes we brought to the spec 14:42:43 ... not clear where we stand in terms of getting implementors buy in 14:43:05 ... Getting feedback from implementors is key in making progress, more than finetuning what we already have 14:43:47 Frederick: my viewpoint on how the WG works: the way I see it is that WG makes decisions, and the editor brings them in in the spec 14:44:10 ... getting WG agreement before getting stuff in the spec is important 14:44:24 -richt 14:44:38 richt has joined #dap 14:44:45 +[IPcaller] 14:45:15 zakim, IPcaller is me 14:45:15 +richt; got it 14:45:28 ... the decision lies within the WG consensus 14:45:48 ... contributions can be made as issues, or specific text proposal, which in some cases can find their way directly in the spec 14:46:00 ... of course, we need some implementors buy-in 14:46:22 ... but I don't think there is a harm to think things through even if we don't have implementors buy-in yet 14:46:55 ... I don't think implementors should decide everything; not sure how that would work with our own timelines and goals 14:47:21 ... I'm not sure how to move forward if we don't have implementors buy-in 14:47:25 q+ 14:47:49 ack dom 14:47:49 dom, you wanted to discuss meaningful privacy and to 14:48:26 -richt 14:48:43 richt_ has joined #dap 14:49:02 +[IPcaller] 14:50:09 Frederick: we have people interested in this spec from the TV space 14:50:25 ... but they got pushed back from Adam?, and went into using something else 14:50:50 Rich: Yeah, I've seen this 14:50:59 ... I would have preferred these discussions to happen in W3C 14:51:25 ... there are alternatives that are emerging which may be put NSD into a difficult position 14:51:34 ... e.g. Chrome is now looking at the Presentation API 14:51:46 ... In terms of next steps, we need to get feedback / buy-in from implementors 14:51:47 q+ 14:52:03 Frederick: I looked at the Presentation API — it seemed complementary rather than in competition 14:52:25 Rich: it's not a replacement API, but it does solve some use cases that NSD also solve 14:52:31 ... e.g. what chromecast enables 14:52:41 jcdufourd has joined #dap 14:52:46 the group where the Presentation API is being worked on: http://www.w3.org/community/webscreens/ 14:52:48 ... display sharing is only a subset, but maybe that's the most useful subset 14:52:57 we have Google, Mozilla, and Apple in the group 14:53:13 Frederick: another worm will be how testable the spec would be given how complex it is 14:53:40 q+ to propose that next steps is to get people that want NSD to work with us on trying to get implementors' attention 14:53:54 Rich: at the network level, I have some ideas 14:54:02 ... the UI stuff is more complicated for automated testing 14:54:20 ... when it comes to service messaging, that's beyond what we would need to check 14:54:28 ... but no testing plan since no implementation plan 14:54:47 Frederick: so you would do this by sniffing the network 14:55:00 Rich: possibly; but that only becomes a problem once we have implementation plans 14:55:14 ... You also mentioned that the spec has lots of moving parts, and that's true 14:55:28 ... the API started from a very ambitious approach 14:55:46 ... maybe we can simply it, e.g. getting inspiration from the sockets idea 14:56:49 ... the current stage is a bit frustrating, but I don't think we can move forward without implementations 14:57:13 ack dom 14:57:14 dom, you wanted to propose that next steps is to get people that want NSD to work with us on trying to get implementors' attention 14:57:39 dom: seems right to wait for implementers feedback and interest 14:57:50 dom: need to get right level of abstraction 14:58:26 dom: next step should be to get more feedback from implementers, could ask Web & TV interest group for help 14:58:56 dom: could specifically contact implementers we know to get feedback, if fundamental concerns with overall approach 14:59:21 I already asked multiple times for web&tv ig help, to no avail 14:59:51 dom: yes 15:01:02 action: fjh to make request to Web and TV interest group re network service discovery 15:01:03 Created ACTION-687 - Make request to web and tv interest group re network service discovery [on Frederick Hirsch - due 2014-04-03]. 15:01:16 action: fjh to contact implementers re network service discovery directly 15:01:16 Created ACTION-688 - Contact implementers re network service discovery directly [on Frederick Hirsch - due 2014-04-03]. 15:02:21 Frederick: so, should we look at issues in the meantime of getting implementors feedback? 15:02:35 Rich: I think it is difficult to focus on issues without implementors interest 15:02:44 we are looking into implementing NSD as a Chrome extension 15:02:53 zakim, who is here? 15:02:53 On the phone I see fjh, dom, mats, Cathy, gmandyam, anssik, [IPcaller] 15:02:55 On IRC I see jcdufourd, richt_, cathy, gmandyam, anssik, Zakim, RRSAgent, fjh, mats, dom, slightlyoff_, Josh_Soref, tobie__, mounir, trackbot 15:02:59 ... I agree with dom we should be proactive on contacting implementors 15:03:29 ... I've also been thinking about Web pages as advertising themselves on the network, which was supposed to be the 2nd stage after discovery 15:03:37 ... but it could be a good thing to explore 15:03:47 ... might also raise interest on discovery 15:03:59 Frederick: could you share more about that? 15:04:07 Rich: I've been doing some brainstorming around that 15:04:32 ... you can create channels among some-origin pages 15:04:46 ... but there isn't a generic cross-origin channel 15:05:03 ... enabling this would open very interesting use cases 15:05:26 ... we could look at this either from an NSD perspective (relying on UPNP etc) 15:05:36 ... or using a different sockets approach 15:05:44 ... I have some early design thoughts 15:06:19 Frederick: we would want to be careful in light of NSD 15:06:28 ... I would certainly support the simple approach 15:06:39 Rich: as a reminder, Opera originally implemented NSD 15:06:51 ... but we switched browser engine in the meantime 15:07:22 Frederick: can we coordinate on contacts with implementors? 15:07:31 Rich: probably best if it comes from you as chair 15:07:58 Frederick: OK, based on this, I think we'll stay off issues for now; Rich, might want to look at some of the minor editorial ones 15:08:25 -gmandyam 15:08:37 Topic: Action items review 15:08:49 ACTION-684? 15:08:49 ACTION-684 -- Dominique Hazaël-Massieux to Help close pull request #376 on batter, duplicate so does not need to be incorporate -- due 2014-03-27 -- OPEN 15:08:49 http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/actions/684 15:10:00 ACTION-682? 15:10:00 ACTION-682 -- Frederick Hirsch to Follow up on how to approve pull requests and to identify correct reviewers, remove inappropriate critics etc -- due 2014-03-06 -- OPEN 15:10:00 http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/actions/682 15:12:07 -Cathy 15:12:09 -dom 15:12:09 zakim, who is here? 15:12:11 On the phone I see fjh, mats, anssik, richt_ 15:12:11 On IRC I see jcdufourd, richt_, cathy, gmandyam, anssik, Zakim, RRSAgent, fjh, mats, dom, slightlyoff_, Josh_Soref, tobie__, mounir, trackbot 15:12:12 -anssik 15:12:12 -richt_ 15:12:13 -mats 15:12:16 ACTION-684: see https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/376#issuecomment-38816061 15:12:16 Notes added to ACTION-684 Help close pull request #376 on batter, duplicate so does not need to be incorporate. 15:12:21 trackbot, close ACTION-684 15:12:21 Closed ACTION-684. 15:12:28 rrsagent, generate minutes 15:12:28 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/03/27-dap-minutes.html fjh 15:12:53 action-684? 15:12:53 action-684 -- Dominique Hazaël-Massieux to Help close pull request #376 on batter, duplicate so does not need to be incorporate -- due 2014-03-27 -- CLOSED 15:12:53 http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/actions/684 15:13:13 ACTION-684? 15:13:13 ACTION-684 -- Dominique Hazaël-Massieux to Help close pull request #376 on battery, duplicate so does not need to be incorporate -- due 2014-03-27 -- CLOSED 15:13:13 http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/actions/684 15:13:36 Present- Anssi_Kostiainen 15:13:46 Present+ Anssi_Kostiainen(IRC) 15:14:36 Present+ Dominique_Hazael-Massieux 15:15:16 richt has joined #dap 15:15:35 s/myself/myself (update, Mounir replied on chat with update)/ 15:15:51 s/Topic: Testing Update// 15:16:03 s/MEdia/Media/ 15:16:56 s/this time/this teleconference time/ 15:17:37 Topic: Other Business 15:18:27 fjh: next meeting 10 april, see schedule for upcoming dates, http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/minutes.html#upcoming-teleconferences 15:18:31 Topic: Adjourn 15:18:35 rrsagent, generate minutes 15:18:35 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/03/27-dap-minutes.html fjh 15:19:26 -fjh 15:19:26 UW_DAP()10:00AM has ended 15:19:26 Attendees were fjh, dom, mats, richt, Cathy, gmandyam, anssik, richt_ 15:21:11 Present+ Giri_Mandyam(IRC) 15:21:32 Present+ JeanClaude_Dufourd(IRC) 15:21:37 rrsagent, generate minutes 15:21:37 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/03/27-dap-minutes.html fjh 15:43:24 lgombos has joined #dap 15:54:27 lgombos has joined #dap 16:30:13 marcosc_ has joined #dap 16:30:23 anssik: isn't battery supported in FxOS? 16:31:01 yeah, we support it 16:31:27 and in Gecko too, it seems 16:31:32 At least it's in nightly 17:04:15 marcosc_: Battery has been in Firefox since v16 unprefixed https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Navigator.battery 17:05:45 anssik: I got confused by fjh email 17:05:52 that mentioned it 17:31:23 maybe we need to update the implementation wiki, I got confused by that 17:32:08 lgombos has joined #dap 17:41:03 Zakim has left #dap 18:41:06 lgombos has joined #dap 19:11:48 lgombos has joined #dap 19:13:20 marcosc has joined #dap 20:05:13 mats has joined #dap 20:56:18 fjh has joined #dap 20:57:06 dom has joined #dap 20:59:51 lgombos has joined #dap 21:20:36 lgombos has joined #dap 21:24:39 marcosc_ has joined #dap 21:54:55 lgombos_ has joined #dap 22:00:41 marcosc has joined #dap 23:06:04 lgombos_ has joined #dap 23:43:42 lgombos_ has joined #dap 23:43:42 marcosc has joined #dap 23:43:42 fjh has joined #dap 23:43:42 mats has joined #dap 23:43:42 slightlyoff has joined #dap 23:43:42 Josh_Soref has joined #dap 23:43:42 tobie__ has joined #dap 23:43:42 mounir has joined #dap