15:29:16 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #css
15:29:16 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/03/26-css-irc
15:29:21 <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
15:29:21 <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 31 minutes
15:29:26 <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:29:44 <glazou> glazou has changed the topic to: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Mar/0547.html
15:49:15 <lmclister> lmclister has joined #css
15:49:49 <kawabata2> kawabata2 has joined #css
15:51:03 <tkw> tkw has joined #css
15:52:52 <dael> dael has joined #css
15:55:31 <rhauck> rhauck has joined #css
15:56:40 <dbaron> dbaron has joined #css
15:56:44 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:56:52 <Zakim> +??P5
15:56:54 <Zakim> +dael
15:57:34 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
15:57:46 <MaRakow> MaRakow has joined #CSS
15:57:48 <Zakim> +krit
15:58:23 <MaRakow> Zakim: Who is on the call?
15:58:56 <Zakim> +SGalineau
15:59:12 <Zakim> +astearns
15:59:18 <glenn> glenn has joined #css
15:59:22 <krit> Zakim, mute krit
15:59:22 <Zakim> krit should now be muted
15:59:36 <Zakim> +??P33
15:59:41 <MaRakow> Zakim, Microsoft has me
15:59:41 <Zakim> +MaRakow; got it
16:00:17 <Zakim> + +1.720.897.aaaa
16:00:24 <glenn> zakim, aaaa is me
16:00:24 <Zakim> +glenn; got it
16:00:30 <gregwhitworth> gregwhitworth has joined #css
16:00:33 <zcorpan> Zakim: ??P33 is me
16:00:39 <dael> ScribeNick: dael
16:00:41 <BradK> BradK has joined #CSS
16:00:51 <Zakim> +??P4
16:00:54 <antonp> antonp has joined #css
16:00:54 <glazou> Zakim, ??P4 is me
16:00:54 <Zakim> +glazou; got it
16:01:00 <Zakim> +Plh
16:01:01 <Zakim> +fantasai
16:01:09 <Zakim> +plinss
16:01:17 <Zakim> +rhauck
16:01:27 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
16:01:39 <gregwhitworth> Zakim, Microsoft.a has me
16:01:40 <Zakim> +gregwhitworth; got it
16:01:43 <MaRakow> That's pretty much what I look like :)
16:01:55 <Zakim> +hober
16:02:02 <glazou> bwahaha
16:02:07 <fantasai> fantasai has joined #css
16:02:19 <Zakim> +BradK
16:02:25 <zcorpan> Zakim: Who is on the call?
16:02:36 <Zakim> +antonp
16:02:47 <Zakim> +??P20
16:02:47 <glazou> Zakim, who is here?
16:02:48 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P5, dael, [Microsoft], krit (muted), SGalineau, astearns, ??P33, glenn, glazou, fantasai, Plh, plinss, rhauck, [Microsoft.a], hober, BradK, antonp, ??P20
16:02:48 <Zakim> [Microsoft] has MaRakow
16:02:48 <Zakim> [Microsoft.a] has gregwhitworth
16:02:48 <Zakim> On IRC I see fantasai, antonp, BradK, gregwhitworth, glenn, MaRakow, dbaron, rhauck, dael, tkw, kawabata2, lmclister, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, jet, anchnk, Ms2ger, plh, darktears,
16:02:52 <Zakim> ... zcorpan, Hixie, ed, shepazu, hober, heycam|away, liam, achicu___, astearns, slightlyoff_, dfreedm, TabAtkins, krit, cbiesinger, jacobg_, mvujovic_, sylvaing_, Teoli_, abucur,
16:02:53 <Zakim> ... cabanier_, leaverou, sylvaing, projector, alexmog, logbot, paul_irish, birtles, stryx`, lmclister__, plinss, Bert, gsnedders, SimonSapin, amtiskaw__, mihnea__, krijnhoetmer,
16:02:53 <Zakim> ... decadance
16:03:03 <Zakim> +dbaron
16:03:17 <Zakim> +TabAtkins
16:03:27 <zcorpan> Zakim: ??P33 is me
16:03:30 <Zakim> +SteveZ
16:03:46 <Zakim> +??P58
16:03:51 <adenilson> adenilson has joined #css
16:04:13 <TabAtkins> zakim, p33 is zcorpan
16:04:13 <Zakim> sorry, TabAtkins, I do not recognize a party named 'p33'
16:04:17 <SteveZ> SteveZ has joined #css
16:04:18 <TabAtkins> zakim, ??p33 is zcorpan
16:04:18 <Zakim> +zcorpan; got it
16:04:53 <dael> glazou: Let's get started
16:05:06 <tkw> Hello, I'm kawabata.  I'm on the phone, but don't know how to notify Zakim.
16:06:05 <glazou> let me change microphone
16:06:39 <tantek> tantek has joined #css
16:07:32 <tantek> Zakim, who is on the call?
16:07:32 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P5, dael, [Microsoft], krit (muted), SGalineau, astearns, zcorpan, glenn, glazou, fantasai, Plh, plinss, rhauck, [Microsoft.a], hober, BradK, antonp, ??P20,
16:07:35 <Zakim> ... dbaron, TabAtkins, SteveZ, ??P58
16:07:35 <Zakim> [Microsoft] has MaRakow
16:07:35 <Zakim> [Microsoft.a] has gregwhitworth
16:07:46 <tantek> I hear tab echo also
16:07:49 <glazou> Zakim, code?
16:07:49 <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), glazou
16:08:05 <koji> koji has joined #css
16:08:13 <Zakim> +glazou.a
16:08:17 <Zakim> -glazou
16:08:18 <tantek> I'm either ??P20 or ??P5 - I have no idea
16:08:49 <dael> glazou: I have an extra about Seoul
16:08:51 <Zakim> -??P20
16:08:52 <Zakim> -BradK
16:08:59 <dael> ...: The meeting with Korean gov't.
16:09:00 <tantek> so apparently I was ??P20
16:09:12 <dael> ...: They ask us if we can do 3 talks about CSS WG and future of CSS tech
16:09:20 <dael> ...: I'm willing to do the first about how we work.
16:09:34 <dael> ...: I noticed astearns and Dave Kramer said they'd talk if needed.
16:09:41 <dael> ...: Are they still willing?
16:09:44 <dael> astearns: I am
16:09:52 <dael> glazou: Can you mssg me about what you'd talk about?
16:09:57 <dael> astearns: Yes.
16:10:05 <dael> glazou: That goes for Dave, who isn't here.
16:10:05 <Zakim> +BradK
16:10:12 <dael> glazou: That's all from me. Any other extras?
16:10:22 <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Feb/0822.html
16:10:28 <dael> Topic:  Rename extent/measure to block-size/inline-size
16:10:46 <dael> SimonSapin: Just a con't of the previous?
16:10:55 <Zakim> +koji
16:10:56 <dbaron> s/SimonSapin/??/
16:10:59 <dael> SimonSapin: Not much came from thread, but we can go with straw.  I'm fine with any options.
16:11:04 <dael> fantasai: What are the options?
16:11:18 <dael> ??: I think it was length.
16:11:32 <fantasai> block/inline-size, block/inline-extent, block/inline-length
16:11:33 <glazou> s/??/TabAtkins
16:11:38 <dael> fantasai: Does anyone want another options?  So there's size, extent, or length (above)
16:11:48 <fantasai> concerns with size were mostly about size being perceived as 3D
16:11:52 <dael> ...: I think the concerns were mostly about size being preceved as #d
16:12:00 <Zakim> -??P5
16:12:02 <dael> ...: With length it was just we use it everywhere for all kinds of things
16:12:06 <Zakim> -??P58
16:12:11 <fantasai> concerns with length were about <length> and "length" being used al over the place
16:12:17 <dael> TabAtkins: Yes.  We do use size for 1D in several specs.  At least I do.
16:12:27 <dael> TabAtkins: That's all I have to say.  I'm happy to poll
16:12:33 <glazou> Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:12:33 <Zakim> On the phone I see dael, [Microsoft], krit (muted), SGalineau, astearns, zcorpan, glenn, fantasai, Plh, plinss, rhauck, [Microsoft.a], hober, antonp, dbaron, TabAtkins, SteveZ,
16:12:33 <Zakim> ... glazou.a, BradK, koji
16:12:33 <Zakim> [Microsoft] has MaRakow
16:12:33 <Zakim> [Microsoft.a] has gregwhitworth
16:12:37 <dael> fantasai: That's a summary of people's thoughts.  Did I miss anything?
16:12:46 <dael> glazou: We can do a straw poll with these three
16:12:54 <dael> glazou: Let's do that.  Microsoft?
16:13:02 <Zakim> +Lea
16:13:03 <dael> glazou: MaRakow and gregwhitworth
16:13:08 <sylvaing_> what's the question?
16:13:16 <dael> ??: I'm not sure. I want to discuss with rossen
16:13:32 <fantasai> Straw poll: inline/block- [size|extent|length|abstain]
16:13:37 <dael> glazou: Question is block/inline size, length, or extent
16:13:41 <Zakim> +??P10
16:13:41 <MaRakow> s/??/MaRakow/
16:13:51 <tantek> Zakim, ??P10 is tantek
16:13:51 <Zakim> +tantek; got it
16:13:52 <dael> MaRakow: I'd have to abstain until I hear from rosse
16:13:55 <tantek> Zakim, mute tantek
16:13:55 <Zakim> tantek should now be muted
16:14:00 <astearns> size > extent > length for me
16:14:06 <dael> tantek: I don't have enough info to quantify.  I think we're in Tab's pocket.
16:14:06 <fantasai> extent > size > length for me
16:14:12 <dael> glazou: krit?
16:14:18 <tantek> dael, that wasn't me ;)
16:14:21 <krit> abstain
16:14:30 <Zakim> +??P67
16:14:31 <dael> ??: Abstain
16:14:32 <leaverou> abstain, as I just joined the call
16:14:34 <tantek> who said tab's bucket/pocket?
16:14:35 <dael> astearns: I like size
16:14:39 <gregwhitworth> tantek: I meant that I don't really care
16:14:41 <dael> zcorpan: abstain
16:14:44 <gregwhitworth> LOL
16:14:46 <SteveZ> extent > size > length for me
16:14:48 <dael> glenn: extent
16:14:50 <krit> s/??/sylvaing_ /
16:14:50 <tantek> dael: s/tantek/gregwhitworth
16:14:52 <BradK> I was in the elevator just now. I prefer length
16:14:55 <dael> fantasai: extent
16:15:01 <dael> plinss: abstain
16:15:02 <tkw> Zakim, +??P67 is tkw
16:15:02 <Zakim> sorry, tkw, I do not recognize a party named '+??P67'
16:15:11 <plh> abstain
16:15:13 <rhauck> abstain
16:15:19 <plh> (couldn't find the unmute button fast enough, sorry)
16:15:25 <rhauck> ditto
16:15:28 <tantek> zakim, unmute tantek
16:15:28 <Zakim> tantek should no longer be muted
16:15:39 <antonp> *not* length
16:15:39 <dael> hober: slightly prefer extent, but rather abstain
16:15:42 <dael> antonp: length
16:15:53 <antonp> s/length/NOT length/
16:15:57 <dael> dbaron: prob size, though not strongly
16:16:00 <dael> TabAtkins: size
16:16:07 <dael> SteveZ: extent
16:16:16 <dael> bkardell: length or size
16:16:19 <dael> koji: size
16:16:24 <dael> tantek: abstain
16:16:35 <krit> Zakim, unmute krit
16:16:38 <Zakim> krit should no longer be muted
16:16:40 <dael> glazou: myself, size
16:16:44 <dael> krit: abstain
16:16:49 <krit> Zakim, mute krit
16:16:49 <Zakim> krit should now be muted
16:16:49 <BradK> S/bkardell/bradk
16:16:53 <dael> glazou: Did I miss anyone?
16:16:56 <gregwhitworth> sylvaing: LOL.
16:17:14 <dael> glazou: That's tough.
16:17:38 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.aa]
16:17:41 <dael> fantasai: It occurs to me that we might at some point have prop with these thigns so go with easiest for authors.
16:17:46 <gregwhitworth> sylvaing: it was also bucket (essentially category) not pocket
16:17:49 <Rossen_> Rossen_ has joined #css
16:17:56 <dael> ...: I prefer extent for vocab, but from prop names size is easier
16:18:02 <dael> TabAtkins: That makes sense to me
16:18:02 <antonp> +1 to what fantasai said
16:18:07 <Rossen_> zakim, microsoft has me
16:18:07 <Zakim> +Rossen_; got it
16:18:14 <fantasai> s/thigns/names/
16:18:18 <sylvaing_> actually liking astearns compromise...
16:18:26 <dael> glazou: So a lot of people are saying extent.  Any obj against extent?
16:18:29 <fantasai> s/from prop names size is easier/for property names, size is easier for authors to relate to/
16:18:34 <dael> TabAtkins: fantasai switched to size
16:18:44 <dael> glazou: Sorry, size.  Any obj against size?
16:18:57 <fantasai> s/vocab/vocab within specs, easier to keep things straight/
16:19:01 <dael> RESOLVED: Rename to block-size and inline-size
16:19:09 <dael> Topic: CSS Scoping
16:19:21 <tantek> zakim, mute tantek
16:19:21 <Zakim> tantek should now be muted
16:19:24 <dael> TabAtkins: Fromt he naming convo. Last week fantasai worked with me and demetri.
16:19:32 <dael> ...: We came up with names we're all happy with, right?
16:19:44 <dael> fantasai: I think they're better. They're a good starting point.  I'm not 100% sold
16:19:51 <dael> ...: I think it's better than what was before.
16:19:58 <dael> TabAtkins: I didn't want to start and have you hate them.
16:20:13 <dael> TabAtkins: In general, we ended up agreeing the pseudo-elements make sense.
16:20:30 <dael> ...: so shadow combinator is not a pseudo.  Just like adder, it doesn't add boxes, jsut structure
16:20:37 <fantasai> s/adder/attr/
16:20:42 <fantasai> s/attr/::attr/
16:20:44 <dael> ...: So children of shadow-root and treated and childreno f dom
16:21:06 <dael> ...: The content combinator is not a pseduo as well.  Same threatment for children
16:21:34 <dael> ...: We're leaving shadow-deep.  We don't like it as pseduo and it's just a powerful decendant combinator.  However, now there isn't shadow, we're just calling it deep
16:21:38 <dael> ...: We don't love the name
16:22:06 <dael> fantasai: This combinator that they envision isn't just through shadow-tree, it's also a reg. decentant combinator which will grab actual and shadow decendants
16:22:15 <dael> ...: So it makes sense it shouldn't be pseduo in this case.
16:22:29 <dael> ...: So removing shadow from name made it clear it worked for reg. tree children
16:22:42 <dael> ...: TabAtkins suggested that if we do ascii we use triple child
16:22:51 <fantasai> a >>> b
16:23:10 <dael> TabAtkins: The idea is we could do an alias for decendant so you could do a double >> and for deep it would be a >>>
16:23:11 <gregwhitworth> I like combinators
16:23:24 <dael> TabAtkins: It's an issue in the draft, but otherwise we're okay with what we have
16:23:44 <dael> TabAtkins: Ancestor psedo which was identical to host, we changed to host-context.  This makes it tighter and more clear about variation
16:23:59 <dael> ...: Expresses relationship in a more general fashion since this is for themeing purposes
16:24:00 <fantasai> s/Ancestor psedo/:ancestor() pseudo/
16:24:13 <dael> ...: So we not have 2 pseduo, one combinator, and 2 pseduo-classes
16:24:27 <dael> ...: Hopefully this si more harmonious with WG desire, so we're hoping for approval.
16:24:31 <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-scoping/#selectors
16:24:53 <dael> fantasai: I think it's a good starting point and I'd like to talk about draft overall and what concerns people have
16:25:10 <dael> ...: Pull those concerns into the draft and get concensus to work and give us something to work off of
16:25:13 <dael> TabAtkins: um hum
16:25:16 <dael> glazou: Ok
16:25:27 <dael> fantasai: If no one has comments, I'd like to go over what we did to draft
16:25:41 <dael> fantasai: We took the shadow-style mod that TabAtkins drafted and expanded scope
16:26:07 <dael> ... we pulled in regions draft that astearns had removed and added scope styles that didn't have a defined place
16:26:22 <dael> ...: We put it all in the same draft and names it CSS Scoping (working title)
16:26:29 <fantasai> dev.w3.org/csswg/css-scoping/
16:26:35 <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-scoping/
16:26:44 <dael> fantasai: You can scroll to the table of contents to see what's there
16:27:11 <dael> ...: ONly thing new is we define scoping and added @scope and we mostly have an issue on @global vs other ways to handle use-cases
16:27:38 <dael> ...: It links to appropriate areas of specs.  We'll have to add font-face as an issues.  There's shadow-styling, and than there's regions pseudo
16:27:55 <dael> ...: WE want to expand to regions columns, fragments, and hope that'll be def. in the same sections.
16:28:10 <dael> ...: So what does the WG think, are there issues, can we pub officially in the WG?
16:28:22 <fantasai> s/issues/issues we should call out in the draft/
16:28:40 <hober> Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:28:40 <Zakim> On the phone I see dael, [Microsoft], krit (muted), SGalineau, astearns, zcorpan, glenn, fantasai, Plh, plinss, rhauck, [Microsoft.a], hober, antonp, dbaron, TabAtkins, SteveZ,
16:28:43 <Zakim> ... glazou.a, BradK, koji, Lea, tantek (muted), ??P67, [Microsoft.aa]
16:28:43 <Zakim> [Microsoft] has Rossen_
16:28:43 <Zakim> [Microsoft.a] has gregwhitworth
16:28:47 <dael> ???: I think it's great you added regions, but in seattle we said we'd do page-styling as the first frag.  So I'm assuming that this section gets worked into page-styling
16:29:10 <dael> fantasai: yes, we didn't touch technical text, we did an into.  The idea is define page-styling primarily and we'll get the rest almost for free.
16:29:18 <dael> ???: Right, okay.
16:29:22 <astearns> s/???/astearns/
16:29:29 <fantasai> fantasai^: For right now, it's just a copy-paste of your stuff.
16:29:42 <Zakim> -??P67
16:29:45 <dael> fantasai: Anyone else have anything they want to say?
16:29:46 <tantek> Zakim, mute tantek
16:29:46 <Zakim> tantek was already muted, tantek
16:29:56 <gregwhitworth> So much silence today
16:29:58 <DeblynPrado> DeblynPrado has joined #css
16:30:07 <dael> fantasai: Okay. So I propose we add an issue for handling global rules like font-face to scoping
16:30:23 <dael> ...: I would like to get an opinon from the WG if you like @scope and if we can add officially
16:30:37 <Zakim> +??P19
16:30:43 <dael> TabAtkins: All @scope does is take mechaninism from style-scope and lets you paint it into a style sheet
16:30:59 <glazou> Zakim, mute ??P19
16:30:59 <Zakim> ??P19 should now be muted
16:31:02 <dael> fantasai: I figured it would be good to have syntax so you don't have to scatter style throughout your document
16:31:16 <fantasai> @scope #selector { <stylesheet> }
16:31:20 <dael> fantasai: It looks like above
16:31:47 <dael> dbaron: I'm worried this might change perf. because it would encourage authors to use them at a finer level
16:32:02 <tkw> Zakim, ??P19 is me
16:32:02 <Zakim> +tkw; got it
16:32:03 <dbaron> s/perf./the performance tradeoffs we make when implementing scoped styles/
16:32:17 <dael> TabAtkins: That is true.  The use-case for scoping in style sheet can be solved largly with nesting.  The big differencec is it changed how the cascade works.
16:32:37 <dael> ...: It's useful, but you don't want to apply it all the time.  We can say not in CSS and just focus on the nesting
16:32:57 <dael> fantasai: I think we can add an issue explaining that this makes it easier, but would impact optimization.
16:33:03 <fantasai> s/but/so/
16:33:06 <dael> ...: That may or may not be good, but something to think about
16:33:09 <tantek> interesting, it looks like scoped styles can potentially solve some of the SASS / LESS use-cases
16:33:14 <tantek> can you nest @scope ?
16:33:20 <fantasai> currently, yes
16:33:20 <dael> TabAtkins: Does anyone in the WG object to this becoming an ED?
16:33:25 <tantek> whoa cool
16:33:25 <dael> TabAtkins: and/or FPWD
16:33:35 <dael> ...: Unless fantasai thinks there's something to do
16:33:41 <krit> Zakim, unmute krit
16:33:41 <Zakim> krit should no longer be muted
16:33:48 <dael> fantasai: We need to add issues where there's concerns, but I'm happy to do FPWD
16:33:58 <dael> glazou: TabAtkins you asked two questions, ED or FPWD
16:34:04 <dael> TabAtkins: They're seperate.
16:34:07 <tantek> @scope .container { @scope .subcomponent { img { height:1em; } } }
16:34:12 <dael> glazou: FPWD is more formal than ED.
16:34:18 <dael> ...: Any obj to ED?
16:34:33 <tantek> I am for FPWD
16:34:33 <dael> ??: Is there a way to add the issues and hold before FPWD?
16:34:36 <dael> fantasai: Yes
16:34:44 <dael> ??: I think we can wait a week and it's okay.
16:34:45 <krit> s/??/krit/
16:34:53 <dael> glazou: So you want a week to review?  Is that okay?
16:34:55 <dael> fantasai: Yes.
16:35:00 <tantek> does that mean absent objections, FPWD in one week?
16:35:01 <dael> glazou: So let's review in a week
16:35:18 <dael> fantasai: I'm going to add performance and global rules issues.  Are there others that people want called out?
16:35:18 <krit> Zakim, mute krit
16:35:18 <Zakim> krit should now be muted
16:35:26 <BradK> Will nesting be in the same draft?
16:35:30 <dael> ...: Anything we want people to know we're not sure about XYZ?
16:35:30 <fantasai> no
16:35:34 <tantek> I think if there is anything else people want called out, they have a week to email the list about it and get it noted in the draft.
16:35:39 <dael> glazou: Apperently not.
16:35:41 <tantek> Sound reasonable?
16:35:56 <dael> fantasai: Okay.  We'll aim to pub next thursday and put the issues in the draft.  That gives a week
16:36:09 <dael> RESOLVED: ED for CSS Scoping
16:36:19 <tantek> zakim, unmute tantek
16:36:19 <Zakim> tantek should no longer be muted
16:36:51 <dael> TabAtkins: Given that we have a call the day before, I'm okay waiting for the resolution next week
16:37:05 <dael> ??: I think it's good because people on the list get a chance to know the ball is rolling.
16:37:12 <fantasai> s/??/tantek/
16:37:13 <dael> glazou: I can be 5 min at next telecon
16:37:27 <dael> glazou: Everyone has an action to review and we decide.
16:37:33 <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2014JanMar/0260.html
16:37:40 <dael> Topic: Async Decision Making
16:37:43 <tantek> zakim, mute tantek
16:37:44 <Zakim> tantek should now be muted
16:37:49 <dael> glazou: This is about using e-mail for concensus.
16:37:57 <sylvaing_> Zakim, mute tantek a couple more times to be safe
16:37:57 <Zakim> I don't understand you, sylvaing_
16:38:00 <dael> ...: Everyone agrees about it I think.  Is plh on the call?
16:38:21 <tantek> Zakim, it's ok, sometimes I don't understand sylvaing_ either.
16:38:21 <Zakim> I don't understand you, tantek
16:38:32 <dael> ...: My question is should we, is it better in the charter.  The decision policy of current charter says nothing and other groups using async has something in their charter
16:38:40 <dael> ...: It doesn't stop us, it's just cleaner.
16:38:51 <sylvaing_> Zakim, please mute tantek in IRC too
16:38:51 <Zakim> I don't understand 'please mute tantek in IRC too', sylvaing_
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16:39:04 <dael> ...: Other than that, I agree that if you want e-mail based decision, plinss or I will send it.  It's better done by co-chairs.
16:39:09 <tantek> +1
16:39:11 <dael> ...: plinss What do you think?
16:39:13 <dael> plinss: I agree
16:39:39 <dael> glazou: There's only one thing to remind people, we don't live in same time zone and have different schedules.  One day isn't enough, we need to leave a reasonable time
16:39:47 <tantek> zakim, unmute tantek
16:39:48 <Zakim> tantek should no longer be muted
16:39:50 <dael> ...: So we can figure out general opinion of those reading
16:40:06 <dael> TabAtkins: I think plinss had done 2 days, I think 48 hours is fine
16:40:24 <dael> glazou: If it's for something settled, agreed with people in the ML, 2 days is okay
16:40:43 <dael> tantek: I'm going to suggest a week b/c a lot of us travel to meetings and sometimes 48 isn't enough.
16:40:52 <dael> ...: If it's urgent 48 is okay, but elsewise a week
16:40:56 <astearns> +1 to week default, but can be decreased to a minimum of 48 hours
16:41:14 <dael> fantasai: I agree.  There's times I won't check for a few days.  For simple admin 48 is okay to prove since we don'te xpect obj
16:41:25 <dael> ...: If it's technical a week is good
16:41:33 <tantek> thank you glazou
16:41:43 <dael> glazou: It's okay.  It'll be a week by default.  plinss or I could use the twitter account
16:41:46 <krit> Zakim, unmute krit
16:41:46 <Zakim> krit should no longer be muted
16:41:50 <dael> fantasai: I think you can CC the internal list too
16:42:07 <dael> glazou: As tantek said, we travel a lot anf twitter is easy on a mobile deivce
16:42:09 <rhauck1> rhauck1 has joined #css
16:42:15 <tantek> glazou: "sometimes we are all traveling and on a mobile device, where twitter is easy and email is hard"
16:42:17 <dael> fantasai: I think you should still CC in internal list
16:42:37 <dael> glazou: So everyone agrees more call for concuncus on the ML, sent by the chairs, default it one week
16:42:50 <dael> ??: If you use twitter, you should als to both lists.
16:42:53 <dael> glazou: Absolutely
16:42:55 <krit> Zakim, mute krit
16:42:55 <Zakim> krit should now be muted
16:42:55 <tantek> agreed, CfC should be on www-style
16:42:57 <dael> ??: Okay
16:43:02 <tantek> zakim, mute tantek
16:43:02 <Zakim> tantek should now be muted
16:43:03 <krit> s/??/krit/
16:43:09 <dael> glazou: SimonSapin does this address all your concerns/questions?
16:43:20 <dael> glazou: I'm not sure he's here.
16:43:24 <tkw> Zakim, unmute tkw.
16:43:24 <Zakim> tkw should no longer be muted
16:43:31 <tkw> Yes
16:43:34 <dael> Topic: Ruby Anoynmous
16:43:41 <dael> glazou: Can you summerize?
16:43:51 <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Mar/0392.html
16:43:54 <dael> tkw: Summarize my proposal?
16:44:23 <dael> tkw: The email I sent you, I'd like to change the section of CSS Ruby 2.2 to be smilar to HTML 5.
16:45:04 <dael> ...: As you know the HTML5 is only for Ruby and frames.  CSS Ruby isn't an interpretation of HTML Ruby so creating an anoyn box is HTML but not CSS
16:45:25 <dael> ...: So HTML and CSS should be consistant, but it's not.  It'd like to prop changing to work with HTML5
16:45:42 <dael> fantasai: I looked at your message and agree with goals.  I haven't looked at exact steps, but I agree we should fix
16:46:02 <Zakim> -tkw
16:46:07 <dael> tkw: This is technical, but in HTML5 Ruby base text should be intp. as Ruby, but anoyn box in Ruby does not.
16:46:11 <glazou> tkw, we lost you
16:46:37 <tkw> Sorry, it seems disconnected.
16:46:39 <glazou> yes
16:46:41 <tkw> I'll try reconnect
16:46:54 <Zakim> +??P19
16:46:55 <dael> fantasai: We're jsut missing text to deal with anoyn content which is an oversight on my part
16:47:08 <tkw> Zakim, P19 is tkw
16:47:08 <Zakim> sorry, tkw, I do not recognize a party named 'P19'
16:47:13 <dael> glazou: I agree with dbaron we need offline review.  We put this on ajenda so everyone was aware.
16:47:16 <glazou> Zakim, ??P19 is tkw
16:47:16 <Zakim> I already had ??P19 as tkw, glazou
16:47:19 <dael> fantasai: I think this is an action on me
16:47:27 <dael> glazou: fantasai can you sum.
16:47:43 <dael> fantasai: We agree this should be fixed, there's an oversight on the spec.  I think I need an action to fix this
16:47:53 <dael> tkw: I think so.  I want to help fix it with fantasai
16:48:02 <dael> fantasai: I'll look at your text and check it's correct.
16:48:09 <dael> fantasai: I'll pull it.
16:48:13 <dael> tkw: Thank you
16:48:15 <dael> glazou: Thank you
16:48:23 <tkw> I muted.
16:48:28 <dael> action fantasai look at the proposal for CSS Ruby
16:48:28 <Zakim> -rhauck
16:48:29 <trackbot> Created ACTION-622 - Look at the proposal for css ruby [on Elika Etemad - due 2014-04-02].
16:48:37 <dael> Topic: Transitions
16:48:39 <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Mar/0530.html
16:48:45 <dael> glazou: First was dbaron
16:49:03 <dael> dbaron: A few months ago we agreed this new model that we thought would work to explain how trans start
16:49:14 <dael> ...: I know some google impl in chrome and found it seems to work
16:49:30 <dael> ...: That says there's an open issue that I don't know how to explain and I'd like some feedback on how to
16:50:00 <dael> TabAtkins: I talked with Shane yesterday, ultimatly we think we're pessamistic about being about to impl trans and animations as a hack over cascade
16:50:14 <dael> ...: We're not sure what it should look like, but we don't think pure cascade would work
16:50:22 <dael> ...: We'd need something like "and than do magic"
16:50:46 <dael> ...: Shane is willing to figure out what needs to be done, not what we're currently doing.  There will be edge cases better addressed by animations anyway
16:50:48 <fantasai> Can we get an example of what doesn't work without magic?
16:51:09 <dael> ...: Shane would like to help figure out trans and animations and how they interact.  We don't think it'll be normal cascade
16:51:15 <dael> ...: But we'll help
16:51:22 <dael> dbaron: I don't htink this is related to cascades
16:51:54 <dael> TabAtkins: b/ you're trying to figure out how to trigger, it still requires running cascade twice or doing dependability trackin,g but that might be a related issues, not this one
16:52:01 <dael> dbaron: It would have been nice to have that sooner
16:52:24 <dael> TabAtkins: I know.  Sorry.  Shane did want to help write and figure out what needs to be done, so I'll get him in contact with you so we can figure out what is reasonable
16:52:29 <dael> dbaron: Okay
16:52:41 <dael> glazou: Anything else on this subject?
16:52:43 <dael> dbaron: Nope.
16:52:46 <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Dec/0317.html
16:52:51 <dael> glazou: Next issue was from krit
16:52:59 <krit> Zakim, unmute krit
16:52:59 <Zakim> krit should no longer be muted
16:53:34 <dael> krit: From amilinglist was a reservation about the transform.  So the computed style..
16:54:08 <dael> TabAtkins: He's prop we define the serialization to always use matrix or matrix3d
16:54:15 <dael> dbaron: We can't do that for spec.
16:54:18 <dael> TabAtkins: Comuter only
16:54:24 <dael> dbaron: Or the resolved value.
16:54:34 <dael> ...: That the resolved is matrix or matrix3d
16:54:44 <dael> TabAtkins: Right now there's no diff between computed and used.
16:54:54 <dael> ...: Do you think it's valuble to say it's the used value
16:55:01 <dael> krit: Will there be a difference in the future?
16:55:09 <dael> dbaron: I think it's computed vs/ resolved.
16:55:20 <dael> TabAtkins: resolved is either computed or used depending on prop
16:55:35 <dael> dbaron: Ah.  We may want to add better APIs in the future and not want this to apply
16:55:47 <dael> TabAtkins: Wouldn't with just serialization.  Then it wouldn't necc. apply
16:55:57 <dael> dbaron: Yes, but even inc. serialization
16:56:15 <dael> krit: That's what I started on the ML.  There's impl that depend on the matrix already
16:56:39 <dael> TabAtkins: Given that everyone serializes the same way, we should spec it and work around it later if needed
16:57:11 <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
16:57:15 <dael> glazou: I think it would ease the pain in the case of matrix based computed value is we, ofifically as a WG we...we have an algorythm, but no code
16:57:27 <dael> ...: If we do this it'll help web dev relying on matrix
16:57:38 <leaverou> This (matrix decomposition) could be a part of the new CSSOM somehow as well
16:57:46 <dael> krit: Two different issues.  First, there's multi algorythms.  The one in the spec has req. to change.
16:58:02 <dael> ...: Even if we have one for CSS, there's still different use cases for decomposing.
16:58:18 <dael> ...: API isn't great, but exposing the matrix into JS is better which we could do in the future
16:58:24 <dael> glazou: ONly 6 components?
16:58:28 <dael> krit: 6 or 16
16:58:47 <dael> glazou: It doesn't seem like enough.  I understand the multiple decompositions, but it's giving them one algorythm.
16:58:54 <dael> glazou: matrix will be complex
16:59:07 <dael> TabAtkins: There will be a default in DOMmatrix.  It's not defined.
16:59:12 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
16:59:48 <dael> krit: I'm not sure if we should.  Decomposing algorythm is not ideal.  There are different proposals that are new, but if we have API like DOMmatrix, you can create  JS library to do it for you
16:59:53 <dael> glazou: Okay, that solves my issues.
17:00:00 <dael> ...: Do we need aresolution
17:00:04 <dael> krit: Yes on serialization
17:00:10 <dael> glazou: Any obj?  dbaron?
17:00:24 <dael> dbaron: So serialization of the computed value is where it changes to matrix?
17:00:34 <dael> dbaron: I'm okay, but we may need to change it in the future
17:00:38 <dael> glazou: Other comments?
17:00:42 <dbaron> s/it/the mechanism that achieves that result/
17:00:44 <dael> glazou: Obj?
17:01:02 <dael> RESOLVED: Move to matrix for the serialization of the computed value for Transiations
17:01:18 <Zakim> -hober
17:01:19 <Zakim> -dbaron
17:01:19 <dael> glazou: It's the top of the hour, ther remaining items will move to next call
17:01:21 <Zakim> -Plh
17:01:21 <Zakim> -zcorpan
17:01:22 <Zakim> -krit
17:01:22 <Zakim> -SGalineau
17:01:24 <Zakim> -TabAtkins
17:01:24 <Zakim> -BradK
17:01:24 <Zakim> -[Microsoft.aa]
17:01:24 <Zakim> -SteveZ
17:01:25 <BradK> BradK has left #css
17:01:25 <Zakim> -glazou.a
17:01:25 <Zakim> -Lea
17:01:25 <dael> glazou: Thanks and talk to you next week.
17:01:26 <Zakim> -fantasai
17:01:27 <tantek> bye!
17:01:30 <Zakim> -plinss
17:01:31 <Zakim> -antonp
17:01:32 <Zakim> -astearns
17:01:33 <Zakim> -dael
17:01:38 <Zakim> -glenn
17:01:39 <Zakim> -tkw
17:01:45 <Zakim> -tantek
17:01:51 <Zakim> -koji
17:01:52 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:01:52 <Zakim> Attendees were dael, krit, SGalineau, astearns, MaRakow, +1.720.897.aaaa, glenn, glazou, Plh, fantasai, plinss, rhauck, [Microsoft], gregwhitworth, hober, BradK, antonp, dbaron,
17:01:52 <Zakim> ... TabAtkins, SteveZ, zcorpan, koji, Lea, tantek, Rossen_, tkw
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