IRC log of dpub on 2014-03-24

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:51:00 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
14:51:02 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
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Zakim, this will be dpub
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ok, trackbot; I see DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 9 minutes
14:51:05 [trackbot]
Meeting: Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference
14:51:05 [trackbot]
Date: 24 March 2014
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15:00:19 [ivan]
zakim, dial ivan-voip
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ok, ivan; the call is being made
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DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM has now started
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+ +1.617.453.aaaa
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15:00:54 [Zakim]
15:01:02 [mgylling]
zakim, ??P5 is me
15:01:02 [Zakim]
+mgylling; got it
15:01:04 [ivan]
zakim, aaaa is liza
15:01:04 [Zakim]
+liza; got it
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15:01:17 [Zakim]
15:01:17 [Zakim]
+ +1.201.236.aabb
15:01:22 [Zakim]
+ +1.646.336.aacc
15:01:40 [ivan]
zakim, aabb is pbelfanti
15:01:40 [Zakim]
+pbelfanti; got it
15:01:55 [ivan]
zakim, aacc is Julie_Morris
15:01:55 [Zakim]
+Julie_Morris; got it
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15:02:04 [mgylling]
regrets: Laura Fowler, Luc Audrain, Phil Madans, Tom De Nies, Dave Cramer
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15:02:17 [ivan]
zakim, Julie_Morris is Julie
15:02:17 [Zakim]
+Julie; got it
15:02:34 [ivan]
zakim, who is here?
15:02:34 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Ivan, Stearns, liza, mgylling, duga, pbelfanti, Tzviya, Julie
15:02:36 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Bill_Kasdorf, Julie, liza, pbelfanti, brady_duga, mgylling, tzviya, Zakim, RRSAgent, tmichel, ivan, liam, astearns__, plinss, trackbot
15:02:52 [fjh]
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+ +1.734.904.aadd
15:03:06 [ivan]
zakim, aadd is Bill_Kasdorf
15:03:07 [Zakim]
+Bill_Kasdorf; got it
15:04:12 [Zakim]
15:04:22 [tmichel]
zakim, ??P9 is me
15:04:22 [Zakim]
+tmichel; got it
15:04:34 [mgylling]
zakim, who is here?
15:04:34 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Ivan, Stearns, liza, mgylling, duga, pbelfanti, Tzviya, Julie, Bill_Kasdorf, tmichel
15:04:37 [Zakim]
On IRC I see fjh, Bill_Kasdorf, Julie, liza, pbelfanti, brady_duga, mgylling, tzviya, Zakim, RRSAgent, tmichel, ivan, liam, astearns__, plinss, trackbot
15:04:52 [mgylling]
zakim, pick a victim
15:04:52 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Stearns
15:05:09 [mgylling]
zakim, pick a victim
15:05:09 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose mgylling
15:05:18 [mgylling]
zakim, pick a victim
15:05:18 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Stearns
15:05:30 [mgylling]
zakim, pick a victim
15:05:30 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Stearns
15:05:33 [liza]
Zakim, try harder
15:05:33 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'try harder', liza
15:05:33 [astearns__]
15:05:33 [Bert]
Bert has joined #dpub
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+ +1.585.217.aaee
15:05:38 [mgylling]
zakim, pick a victim
15:05:38 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose pbelfanti
15:05:45 [Zakim]
15:05:46 [mgylling]
zakim, pick a victim
15:05:46 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Bert
15:06:48 [Bert]
ScribeNick: bert
15:07:07 [Zakim]
15:07:09 [Bert]
Topic: Approving minutes
15:07:11 [fjh]
zakim, ipcaller is me
15:07:11 [Zakim]
+fjh; got it
15:07:16 [Bert]
mgylling: Any objections?
15:07:30 [Bert]
RESOLVED: minutes of last week are approved
15:07:31 [ivan]
zakim, 585 is david_stroup
15:07:31 [Zakim]
sorry, ivan, I do not recognize a party named '585'
15:07:41 [ivan]
zakim aaee is david_stroup
15:07:46 [Bert]
Topic: Participation of content & mark-up TF
15:08:14 [Bert]
mgylling: TFs focus on one topic at a time.
15:08:29 [Bert]
... Current for this TF is tructural semantics inflection.
15:08:40 [Bert]
... Recap:
15:09:00 [Bert]
... Try to figure out how to do inflection of domain-specific structural semantics in HTML5.
15:09:14 [Bert]
... EPUB uses epub:type namespaced attribute.
15:09:42 [Bert]
... Want attribute to be serializing-agnostic, i.e., good for both HTML and XML.
15:09:50 [Bert]
... Work with ARIA.
15:10:11 [Bert]
... I think we want to produce use-cases for semantic inflection.
15:10:26 [Bert]
... I haven't had time to start on it.
15:10:46 [Bert]
... We should try to describe our options:
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15:11:17 [Bert]
... Different approaches: epub:type, ITS-inspired attributes (with a hyphen).
15:11:31 [Bert]
... Hyphen instea dof namespace makes a difference in HTML5.
15:11:56 [Bert]
... Industry uses data-* already. Class attrib also.
15:12:19 [Bert]
... But data-* is not really recommended for spec extensions.
15:12:38 [Bert]
... So there are various approaches and we get questions why we don't do this or don't do that.
15:12:46 [ivan]
+1 to the summary
15:12:46 [Bert]
... Need a summary of pros and cons.
15:12:58 [Bert]
... Thus help the publishing industry.
15:13:10 [Bert]
... So: 1) use cases and 2) source mapping.
15:13:20 [Bert]
... Is this too slow?
15:13:44 [Bert]
... Given that we have a liason with PF already, via Richard Schwertfeger.
15:13:47 [ivan]
15:14:17 [Bert]
liza: Some approaches "work" but shouldn't be used.
15:14:31 [mgylling]
ack ivan
15:14:41 [liza]
15:14:45 [Bert]
ivan: The summary mneans to list the issues and discussions.
15:14:52 [liza]
15:14:58 [Bert]
... We should also add RDF/a vs microdata.
15:15:14 [ivan]
15:15:18 [Bert]
mgylling: It's a long list of options...
15:15:40 [ivan]
15:15:46 [Bert]
... Twofold approach: 1st work on ARIA role attribute and make it applicable for us.
15:16:11 [Bert]
... Rich said changes are needed, wrt. treating unknown values.
15:16:22 [Bert]
... pF also intends to work on sub-modules for ARIA roles.
15:16:31 [Bert]
... E.g., for SVG.
15:16:41 [Bert]
... And alsofor book structure sematics.
15:17:12 [Bert]
... Who can work on that?
15:17:18 [mgylling]
15:17:19 [Bert]
... Comments?
15:17:43 [Bert]
... Wrt. wiki activity: we need help.
15:17:56 [Bert]
... I.e., provide use cases and list options.
15:18:06 [Bert]
... Who wants to work with us on that over next 2-3 weeks?
15:18:08 [ivan]
FYI: is the upcoming charter of the PF WG
15:18:21 [Bert]
ivan: For me those weeks are difficult.
15:18:30 [Bert]
... After that I'd be happy to contribute.
15:18:47 [Bert]
... (Travel to workshop and then to Korea.)
15:18:49 [tzviya]
15:19:06 [mgylling]
ack tzviya
15:19:07 [Bert]
... But I want to contribute, or get info from my colleagues.
15:19:28 [Bert]
tzviya: Dave or Paul, since you did some work, are you interested?
15:19:39 [Bert]
dave: Yes.
15:19:47 [liza]
15:20:10 [Bert]
mgylling: So me, tzviya and dave in charge of the TF wiki.
15:20:53 [Bert]
... Comparison table could do with help from Robin.
15:21:14 [Bert]
... We want EPUB to pick the rigjht options.
15:21:50 [Bert]
ivan: The reasons why we think multi-serializing is necessary, we will get questions about that and what's wrong wity epub:type.
15:22:01 [Bert]
mgylling: We can list pros and cons in the comparison table.
15:22:28 [Bert]
ivan: And also: microformats-style, using class attribute, will also be asked about. Controversial issue.
15:22:33 [tzviya]
15:22:53 [Bert]
mgylling: We try to move quickly, because epub:typ[e and clas attr both have issues.
15:23:08 [Bert]
ivan: Documenting that and having a ref for for the future is important.
15:23:10 [ivan]
15:23:26 [mgylling]
ack tzviya
15:23:26 [ivan]
ack tzviya
15:23:49 [Bert]
tzviya: Is the doc going to descruibe why this vocab is necessary at all? Some people would say HTML is perfect...
15:24:17 [Bert]
ivan: Half of it will be a version of th euse cases. The olther half is technical stuff.
15:24:39 [Bert]
mgylling: List of names of people wishing to join PF to work with them.
15:24:47 [ivan]
15:25:06 [Bert]
ivan: They have to be members, because Invited Experts here are only IE in DPUB.
15:25:17 [tzviya]
I'm working on it :)
15:25:22 [Bert]
dave: I can look into it.
15:25:33 [Bert]
ivan: You're a me,ber, so no problem.
15:25:36 [liza]
Thanks Pearson!
15:25:48 [Bert]
mgylling: Anybody else?
15:26:01 [ivan]
15:26:11 [ivan]
acq ivan
15:26:18 [ivan]
ack ivan
15:26:28 [Bert]
ivan: OK to start on wiki. Do we want to publish a doc later?
15:26:37 [Bert]
mgylling: Like a Note? Yes, probably.
15:27:12 [Bert]
ivan: I agree that would be good. At what point do we move the document to github? Don't wait to long, becauseit gets harder to transform.
15:27:25 [Bert]
... Ping me and I'll set it up.
15:27:34 [tmichel]
15:27:45 [Bert]
Topic: deliverable "A comprehensive and prioritized list..."
15:27:47 [mgylling]
A comprehensive and prioritized list of W3C specifications that are important for the Digital Publishing industry but are still in an unstable state at the W3C, as well as their current state in the process. The goal of this deliverable is to help the Digital Publishing industry, as well as the different specification and standardization activities within that community, to be aware of the evolution of the W3C specifications, and to possibly adapt their
15:27:48 [mgylling]
specifications accordingly.
15:28:27 [Bert]
mgylling: This is a cross-TF thing.
15:28:41 [Bert]
... Doesn't look so complicated. How do we go about producing this?
15:28:56 [Bert]
... One option is to start with a wiki and let the TF leads add listings.
15:29:17 [Bert]
.. We should be more specifgic than CSS2/CSS3, but list specific modules.
15:29:28 [Bert]
ivan: Not all CSS modules are of interest.
15:29:48 [Bert]
... Add their status, ready for publication, ready to use, etc.
15:30:05 [Bert]
... A numbe rof specs highly relevant but only WD still.
15:30:18 [Bert]
mgylling: OK, so add a status as well.
15:30:26 [Bert]
... Is a wiki the right approach?
15:30:26 [Bill_Kasdorf]
15:30:40 [mgylling]
ack Bill_
15:30:44 [Bert]
Bill_Kasdorf: Yes, right way to start.
15:31:12 [Bert]
... On meta data work: all of these deliverables are directed at W3C WGs. Should we direct also at publishers?
15:31:25 [Bert]
... There's a lack of awareness of what's already there.
15:31:32 [Bert]
ivan: Example?
15:31:50 [Bert]
Bill_Kasdorf: Various widely, based on publisher and how techn they are.
15:32:15 [Bert]
... Not many are aware of ARIA, RDF/a. is easier, but even that they often don't know.
15:32:52 [Bert]
ivan: In the table we'll have what's done and what's under devel.
15:32:55 [Zakim]
15:33:06 [Bert]
... ARIA is in former category.
15:33:34 [Bert]
... For tech. that are already there, we can point at primers annd intro material.
15:33:46 [Bert]
... In a few cases W3C has such documents.
15:34:06 [Bert]
... For many that doesn't exist. And then the q is what documents are useful for that community.
15:34:15 [Bert]
... But we can look at what is useful info.
15:34:36 [Bert]
mgylling: So another extra column in the wiki: primer links
15:34:55 [Bert]
... As soon as we have sufficient content, we'll assign an editor.
15:35:19 [Bert]
ivan: We need to discuss: these documents tend to become outdated quickly.
15:35:43 [Bert]
... I know similar work in mobile area. One of my colleagues worked on a table.
15:36:07 [Bert]
... Mobile is a different world, but he has a mechanism to update it maybe every 6 months.
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15:36:17 [Bert]
... So it is different from a Note.
15:36:46 [Bert]
mgylling: Yes, keeping as a wiki might also be doable. We start with a wiki anyway.
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15:36:53 [ivan]
-> Dominque’s table
15:36:56 [Bert]
... Who can start the wiki page?
15:37:09 [Bert]
ivan: Here [above] is the table I was referring to.
15:37:28 [Bert]
... Different from what we need, e.g., it has APIs.
15:37:58 [Bert]
... A number of things there are related to testing and deployment in browsers, also.
15:38:11 [Bert]
... Reading systems such as Readium are different.
15:38:24 [Bert]
... But still a good example of a table.
15:38:28 [tmichel]
I can setup the wiki page
15:38:35 [Bert]
mgylling: So who can set up the wiki?
15:38:50 [Bert]
... Thierry will. Thanks!
15:38:53 [tmichel]
Ok will add categories
15:39:05 [Bert]
Topic: AOB
15:39:23 [Bert]
mgylling: Q for Bill:
15:39:32 [Bert]
... I punted on your metadata date?
15:39:38 [Bert]
... How about next Monday?
15:39:56 [Bert]
Bill_Kasdorf: Next Monday is too soon, need to discuss with Mady first.
15:40:06 [Bert]
ivan: Not here in two weeks.
15:40:39 [Bert]
Bill_Kasdorf: 7 OK, 14 not...
15:40:53 [Bert]
ivan: 14th I'll be jetlagged.
15:41:05 [Zakim]
15:41:06 [Zakim]
15:41:06 [Zakim]
15:41:07 [Bert]
Bill_Kasdorf: 14th probably doesn't work for me either.
15:41:07 [Zakim]
15:41:07 [Zakim]
15:41:09 [Zakim]
15:41:09 [Zakim]
- +1.585.217.aaee
15:41:10 [Zakim]
15:41:10 [Zakim]
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15:41:44 [Bert]
RRSAgent, make minutes
15:41:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Bert
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15:41:54 [Zakim]
DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM has ended
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Attendees were Ivan, Stearns, +1.617.453.aaaa, mgylling, liza, duga, Tzviya, +1.201.236.aabb, +1.646.336.aacc, pbelfanti, Julie, +1.734.904.aadd, Bill_Kasdorf, tmichel,
15:41:54 [Zakim]
... +1.585.217.aaee, Bert, fjh
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DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM has now started
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15:42:09 [Bert]
RRSAgent, make minutes
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I have made the request to generate Bert
15:42:34 [Bert]
Chair: mgylling
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DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM has ended
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Attendees were Ruben
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