IRC log of dpub on 2014-03-17

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:07:52 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
14:07:54 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
14:07:54 [Zakim]
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14:07:56 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be dpub
14:07:56 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 53 minutes
14:07:57 [trackbot]
Meeting: Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference
14:07:57 [trackbot]
Date: 17 March 2014
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15:00:12 [dauwhe]
Zakim, who is here?
15:00:12 [Zakim]
DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM has not yet started, dauwhe
15:00:14 [Zakim]
On IRC I see tzviya, gcapiel, philm, liza, Vlad, mgylling, tmichel, karen, dshkolnik, Zakim, RRSAgent, ivan, astearns__, dauwhe, richardschwerdtfeger, liam, plinss, trackbot
15:00:18 [Luc]
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15:00:34 [azaroth]
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15:00:42 [azaroth]
zakim, who is here?
15:00:42 [Zakim]
DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM has not yet started, azaroth
15:00:43 [Zakim]
On IRC I see azaroth, Luc, tzviya, gcapiel, philm, liza, Vlad, mgylling, tmichel, karen, dshkolnik, Zakim, RRSAgent, ivan, astearns__, dauwhe, richardschwerdtfeger, liam, plinss,
15:00:43 [Zakim]
... trackbot
15:00:49 [ivan]
zakim, dial ivan-voip
15:00:49 [Zakim]
ok, ivan; the call is being made
15:00:51 [Julie]
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15:01:05 [ivan]
zakim, who is here?
15:01:05 [Zakim]
DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM has not yet started, ivan
15:01:06 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Julie, azaroth, Luc, tzviya, gcapiel, philm, liza, Vlad, mgylling, tmichel, karen, dshkolnik, Zakim, RRSAgent, ivan, astearns__, dauwhe, richardschwerdtfeger, liam,
15:01:06 [Zakim]
... plinss, trackbot
15:01:15 [ivan]
zakim, who is noisy?
15:01:16 [Zakim]
sorry, ivan, I don't know what conference this is
15:01:53 [gcapiel]
Weird it didn't see the phone coming in
15:01:57 [liza]
Zakim has a case of the Mondays
15:02:34 [liza]
Please mute, someone is very loud
15:02:43 [ivan]
zakim, mute me
15:02:43 [Zakim]
sorry, ivan, I don't know what conference this is
15:02:51 [liza]
Quiet now
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15:04:50 [tmichel]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:04:50 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate tmichel
15:06:17 [dauwhe]
scribenick: dauwhe
15:06:22 [Bill_Kasdorf]
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15:06:43 [dauwhe]
mgylling: welcome Paul Belfanti
15:06:47 [liza]
15:07:03 [dauwhe]
... Director of content architecture at Pearson
15:07:13 [dauwhe]
... co-chair of EDUPUB workshop
15:07:48 [dauwhe]
Paul, are you on IRC?
15:08:48 [dauwhe]
mgylling: previous minutes
15:08:54 [dauwhe]
... any objection to approve?
15:08:58 [dauwhe]
... minutes are approved.
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15:09:05 [dauwhe]
... Subject: TPAC
15:09:08 [tzviya] minutes from last week
15:09:39 [dauwhe]
... some back-and-forth; meeting will likely be Thursday-Friday
15:09:46 [dauwhe]
... will not be parallel with CSSWG
15:09:59 [dauwhe]
... which is good and bad
15:10:12 [dauwhe]
... parallel with HTMLWG
15:10:27 [dauwhe]
Ivan: we may need Robin or Mike Smith
15:10:40 [dauwhe]
mygylling: Ivan will fill in form later today
15:10:49 [dauwhe]
... any other housekeeping items?
15:11:33 [dauwhe]
... Organization of task forces
15:11:34 [Luc]
Luc is mute locally
15:11:38 [dauwhe]
... others have been slow
15:11:47 [dauwhe]
... we need organization that fits the resources we have
15:11:47 [tzviya]
is someone on a bus?
15:11:52 [dauwhe]
... we will consolidate
15:12:10 [dauwhe]
... and we will document short-term goals for each task force
15:12:20 [dauwhe]
... not necessarily singular, but that's fine
15:12:28 [gcapiel]
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15:12:33 [dauwhe]
... so we have more tangible and easy-to-address work items
15:12:39 [dauwhe]
... today we'll go through the task forces
15:12:59 [dauwhe]
... the options were discussed by co-chairs, Tzviya,. and Ivan
15:13:20 [dauwhe]
... a task force for content and markup
15:13:34 [dauwhe]
... this "swallows" behavioural adaption and ??
15:13:42 [dauwhe]
... led by Tzviya
15:13:47 [liza]
15:13:53 [mgylling]
15:14:03 [dauwhe]
tzviya: we will not be addressing images aspect of this
15:14:14 [dauwhe]
... some MathML and STEM stuff may have included images
15:14:23 [dauwhe]
mgylling: we talked a lot about overlap
15:14:34 [dauwhe]
... in A11Y there's lots of interest in SVG
15:14:45 [dauwhe]
... it's a crosscutting concern everywhere
15:15:07 [dauwhe]
... need to handle these issues where they arise
15:15:17 [dauwhe]
tzviya: not on wiki yet
15:15:21 [Luc]
15:15:33 [dauwhe]
... we had call on Friday with Rich and Robin about addressing issue of epub:type
15:15:42 [dauwhe]
... and extend the structural semantic vocabulary
15:15:50 [dauwhe]
... how to refine the terms that exist in publishing
15:15:57 [gcapiel]
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15:16:04 [tzviya]
15:16:06 [dauwhe]
... discussions are outlined in [link TK]
15:16:12 [dauwhe]
... will incorporate into ARIA
15:16:21 [dauwhe]
... IDPF will maintain vocab
15:16:26 [dauwhe]
... validated by W3C validator
15:16:45 [dauwhe]
... EDUPUB alliance will help build vocab along with IG
15:17:01 [dauwhe]
mgylling: in terms of wiki link, and this IG producing necessary docs
15:17:19 [dauwhe]
... should 1st deliverable of task force outline use cases for structural semantics and inflection
15:17:22 [Luc]
overlap with metadata TF on content markup?
15:17:25 [dauwhe]
... why do we want to do this?
15:17:32 [dauwhe]
... when HTML5 is so great already
15:17:54 [dauwhe]
... should task force discuss topic at general level? Here's the use cases that underline topic
15:18:06 [dauwhe]
... and also discuss and track primary options, like role attribute
15:18:13 [dauwhe]
tzviya: that makes sense
15:18:23 [dauwhe]
mgylling: i have some sources of documenation
15:18:42 [dauwhe]
... action item for mgylling and tzviya to produce 1st version of doc
15:18:54 [dauwhe]
... changes in ARIA 1.1 and potentially HTML5 and in Validator
15:18:57 [ivan]
15:19:00 [dauwhe]
... lots of issue tracking required
15:19:08 [dauwhe]
... good use of IG time
15:19:09 [mgylling]
ack ivan
15:19:16 [mgylling]
ack Luc
15:19:25 [dauwhe]
Luc: overlap with metadata task force?
15:19:30 [dauwhe]
... due to semantic markup
15:19:45 [dauwhe]
... also interested in content markup
15:20:04 [dauwhe]
... when you speak about ARIA, you are bringing many semantic markup to the deepest level of the content
15:20:15 [dauwhe]
Ivan: yes, there a clear connection here
15:20:24 [dauwhe]
... What we discussed with Rich and others
15:20:49 [dauwhe]
... we would have a mechanism where role attribute could be used for terms or issues that are not necessarily covered by a18y
15:21:12 [dauwhe]
... this mechanism can be used for educational purposes, or for things like indexes or glossaries
15:21:37 [dauwhe]
... find a mechanism that works everywhere, uses attribute based information rather than XML vocab
15:21:49 [dauwhe]
... we need to establish this mechanism
15:21:57 [dauwhe]
bring together ARIA, EPUB, HTML5, etc.
15:22:05 [dauwhe]
15:22:21 [dauwhe]
Ivan: question for Tzviya
15:22:27 [dauwhe]
... did we agree on another call?
15:22:42 [dauwhe]
... there were technical issues about ARIA attribues
15:22:48 [dauwhe]
tzviya: we did not set up another call
15:23:13 [dauwhe]
Ivan: what do we do about that? Do we contact Rich?
15:23:30 [dauwhe]
tzviya: he's set on sticking with role attribute
15:23:40 [dauwhe]
... other attributes would be much lengthier conversation
15:23:50 [dauwhe]
mgylling: not urgent to have another call
15:23:57 [dauwhe]
... Rich has filed issue in ARIA tracker
15:24:10 [dauwhe]
... next thing is PF needs to sort out in ARIA 1.1
15:24:22 [dauwhe]
... we should particpating in PF calls
15:24:29 [dauwhe]
Ivan: what is next step for us?
15:24:36 [dauwhe]
tzviya: put use cases behind this
15:24:44 [dauwhe]
all: yep
15:24:53 [dauwhe]
mgylling: you'll be updating wiki
15:24:56 [dauwhe]
tzviya: yes
15:25:01 [dauwhe]
Ivan: one liner as well?
15:25:08 [dauwhe]
mgylling: that's what I meant
15:25:13 [dauwhe]
... we'll work jointly on document
15:25:22 [dauwhe]
... anything more on content and markup?
15:25:34 [dauwhe]
... so work on MathML and STEM is dormant at the moment
15:25:40 [mgylling]
15:25:47 [dauwhe]
... moving on to metadata
15:26:08 [dauwhe]
Bill_Kasdorf: last week's call was very helpful
15:26:18 [dauwhe]
... talked to Madi after the meeting
15:26:33 [dauwhe]
... made extensive edit to wiki, but didn't work quite right
15:26:47 [gcapiel]
Except with regards to a11y on STEM and math
15:27:09 [dauwhe]
... let's first just find out what are the urgent issues from pub POV
15:27:20 [dauwhe]
... asking them what the W3C can do about it is harder
15:27:28 [dauwhe]
... just asking what is hard gets all sorts of answers
15:28:10 [dauwhe]
moderator is mucking up the works :)
15:28:28 [dauwhe]
Bill_Kasdorf: having some issues with wiki
15:28:49 [tzviya]
* once it;s on the wiki, you can link
15:29:13 [ivan]
15:29:45 [dauwhe]
Bill_Kasdorf: summary here
15:30:28 [dauwhe]
... hand-pick knowledgeable folks, and interview them
15:30:50 [dauwhe]
... let's see what that blitz of interviewing surfaces
15:30:54 [dauwhe]
... what common threads?
15:30:59 [dauwhe]
... do that in a couple weeks
15:31:05 [dauwhe]
... I have list of people to talk to
15:31:10 [dauwhe]
... I did half last week
15:31:18 [dauwhe]
... Laura Dawson at Bowker
15:31:24 [dauwhe]
... Fran Toolan at Firebrand
15:31:44 [dauwhe]
... co-authors of metadata handbook
15:31:52 [dauwhe]
... all those are book-oriented people
15:32:01 [dauwhe]
... didn't reach Graham Bell of Editeur
15:32:13 [dauwhe]
... ??? and ??? from Crossref, involved with STEM
15:32:37 [dauwhe]
... they have a sucessful metadata service that the scholarly publishing world depends on
15:32:45 [dauwhe]
... Diane Kennedy at IDEAlliance
15:32:54 [dauwhe]
... others for Magazine metadata
15:33:02 [dauwhe]
... Kevin Hawkins library
15:33:11 [dauwhe]
... Julie Morris and Len Vlahos of BISG
15:33:21 [dauwhe]
... BISG has lots of members who are not W3C members
15:33:28 [dauwhe]
... BISG has metadata committee
15:33:40 [dauwhe]
... and committees for BISAC and ONIX
15:34:04 [dauwhe]
... summarized first four interviews in wiki
15:34:19 [dauwhe]
... these were all book people
15:34:29 [dauwhe]
... metadata is complex, rich, enormous subject
15:34:36 [dauwhe]
... have trouble getting their heads around it
15:34:46 [dauwhe]
... the problem isn't the metadata, it's how to use it
15:35:02 [dauwhe]
... common theme... it's all about discovery and selling books
15:35:12 [dauwhe]
... aligns with Madi's point when starting IG
15:35:24 [dauwhe]
... also need more granular metadata, need at lower than title level
15:35:25 [Zakim]
restarting zakim-bot in 2 minutes to recover bridge connection
15:35:39 [dauwhe]
... two issues:
15:35:55 [dauwhe]
... one, expanded use of role attribute
15:36:06 [dauwhe]
... put subject metadata at granular level in content
15:36:23 [dauwhe]
mgylling: are you continuing to do interviews?
15:36:39 [dauwhe]
Bill_Kasdorf: one other issue is profusion of vocabularies
15:36:57 [dauwhe]
... use your own controlled vocabulary like LOC, thema
15:37:07 [dauwhe]
... another case for something vastly simpler, like
15:37:25 [ivan]
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15:37:37 [dauwhe]
... I'm taking a broad approach
15:37:47 [dauwhe]
... Madi is talking to people at Pearson
15:37:51 [dauwhe]
mgylling: thanks bill
15:37:55 [dauwhe]
Ivan: small remark:
15:37:55 [mgylling]
ack ivan
15:38:12 [dauwhe]
... we have close relationshiop with key people in
15:38:33 [dauwhe]
Bill_Kasdorf: not sure where to put interview summaries in wiki
15:38:41 [ivan]
15:38:45 [dauwhe]
mgylling: I love data like this from the real world
15:39:00 [dauwhe]
... first: interviewees need to accept that you're publishing their statements
15:39:14 [dauwhe]
... second: is it correct that there will be a consolidated report?
15:39:19 [ivan]
I would certainly prefer to anonymize the data if we put it on the wiki
15:39:21 [dauwhe]
Bill_Kasdorf: yes, of course.
15:39:29 [dauwhe]
mgylling: that's your first delivierable
15:39:43 [dauwhe]
Bill_Kasdorf: will include some issues that are not in scope of W3C
15:39:56 [dauwhe]
... not all these issues are W3C issues
15:40:16 [dauwhe]
mgylling: I don't know if Ivan has concerns about that, I think it gives us a grip on the big picture
15:40:30 [dauwhe]
Ivan: We can't know what is in scope unless we know what's out of scope
15:40:57 [dauwhe]
Bill_Kasdorf: ONIX is huge, BISAC is huge, lots of inconsistency in ecosystem
15:41:04 [dauwhe]
... W3C can't solve that problem
15:41:17 [dauwhe]
...W3C can help with simple thing on top of rich vocabs
15:41:45 [dauwhe]
mgylling: if long-term goal is digi pub is first-class citizen of web, then all this needs to work
15:42:05 [dauwhe]
Bill_Kasdorf: it's all about discovery, and thus it's all about Google
15:42:39 [dauwhe]
mgylling: we were going to talk about metadata today
15:42:47 [gcapiel]
More reason for
15:42:49 [dauwhe]
... do you want to reschedule dedicated metadata call
15:43:11 [dauwhe]
Bill_Kasdorf: optimal time is when we complete interviews and write up summaries
15:43:15 [dauwhe]
... next week is too soon
15:43:27 [dauwhe]
... good idea, we'll fix a date later
15:43:31 [dauwhe]
mgylling: a11y
15:43:43 [dauwhe]
... Topic: a11y
15:43:53 [dauwhe]
gcapiel: didn't sync up with Suzanne
15:44:05 [dauwhe]
... did add to wiki
15:44:13 [dauwhe]
... some of what I think should be the current goals
15:44:26 [dauwhe]
... I looked at user agent accessiblity guidelines
15:44:38 [dauwhe]
... worth reviewing that, and proposing edits to take into account digital publishing
15:44:40 [ivan]
a11y's one liner on the web: "Review UAAG, EPUB 3 a11y features/guidelines particularly media overlays, CSS Speech, Braille, and SVG"
15:44:56 [ivan]
15:44:56 [dauwhe]
... go through EPUB3 accessibliity document that Matt Garish did
15:45:08 [dauwhe]
... we haven't talked about media overlays much
15:45:20 [dauwhe]
... including an audio file with content is part of it
15:45:28 [dauwhe]
... but there are things like skippability
15:45:37 [dauwhe]
... which are covered in EPUB3 but not in OWP
15:46:06 [dauwhe]
... other areas are CSS speech
15:46:14 [dauwhe]
... where the gaps are with braille support
15:46:20 [dauwhe]
... some work with SVG and aria roles
15:46:32 [dauwhe]
... that's also under current goals, working with rich and shepazau
15:46:49 [dauwhe]
mgylling: that ties in with Tzviya's work on semantic vocab
15:46:54 [ivan]
15:47:01 [dauwhe]
gcapiel: we're thinging from a11y perspective
15:47:12 [Bill_Kasdorf]
re the wiki link to metadata, the updated content is NOT yet appearing there
15:47:30 [dauwhe]
mgylling: reviewing User agent guidelines, looking at EPUB3 feature set and mapping to OWP... what about resources?
15:47:36 [dauwhe]
gcapiel: that's the biggest challeng
15:47:54 [dauwhe]
... for the next six weeks or so I have some time to work on this!
15:48:07 [dauwhe]
... getting time from other folks might be tight
15:48:20 [dauwhe]
... can catch up with Suzanne next week
15:48:31 [dauwhe]
... might not be able to do a meet-up with all folks involved
15:48:40 [dauwhe]
mgylling: we'll get back to resource question
15:48:52 [mgylling]
15:48:57 [dauwhe]
... more on a11y?
15:49:11 [dauwhe]
Ivan: any reason ??? is not mentioned here?
15:49:20 [dauwhe]
... that's a good question.
15:49:21 [ivan]
15:49:28 [dauwhe]
... it probably should fit into this
15:49:48 [dauwhe]
... in terms of priorities, it's more on the Reading Systems
15:50:28 [dauwhe]
... if I had to pick one, it would be to focus on UA Accessiblity Guidelines, then BISG could help
15:50:41 [dauwhe]
mgylling: UAAG is in last call, which makes it more urgent
15:50:47 [dauwhe]
???: ????
15:51:16 [dauwhe]
mgylling: UUAG review should be prioritized
15:52:26 [dauwhe]
... topic: Latinreq
15:52:30 [mgylling]
15:52:43 [dauwhe]
dauwhe: want to work on footnotes and drop caps for CSS
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15:52:51 [dauwhe]
mgylling: topic: Annotations
15:53:03 [dauwhe]
azaroth: some feedback on Annotations doc
15:53:15 [dauwhe]
... some new issues that should be added
15:53:35 [dauwhe]
... then we can publish an updated WD when feedback has been incorporated
15:53:40 [dauwhe]
mgylling: how long to wait?
15:53:56 [dauwhe]
azaroth: wait until after iAnnotate and W3C conference
15:54:00 [ivan]
15:54:24 [dauwhe]
mgylling: current goal is to collect community feedback, then produce updated version?
15:54:29 [dauwhe]
azaroth: yep.
15:54:40 [dauwhe]
mgylling: we'll clean up wiki front page
15:54:49 [dauwhe]
... maybe a separate table for dormant topics?
15:55:06 [dauwhe]
Ivan: the front page should reflect current work
15:55:15 [dauwhe]
... as it's a reference for people coming to the wiki
15:55:32 [dauwhe]
... we can also say some topics are not currently being worked on
15:55:40 [dauwhe]
... unsure what to do with security item
15:55:45 [dauwhe]
mgylling: will talk to sharad
15:55:51 [dauwhe]
Ivan: who should change table?
15:55:58 [dauwhe]
... won't be before tomorrow
15:56:17 [dauwhe]
mgylling: add 2nd table below for dormant/pending/future task forces, but keep on first page
15:56:34 [dauwhe]
Ivan: i will do that tomorrow
15:56:40 [dauwhe]
mgylling: any final questions?
15:56:55 [dauwhe]
Ivan: we must congratulate our editors, as we have our first publications out!
15:56:58 [tzviya]
15:57:14 [dauwhe]
mgylling: and Liza is working on a blog post.
15:57:15 [Luc]
15:57:24 [tzviya]
15:57:48 [dauwhe]
all: bye
15:57:56 [ivan]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:57:56 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ivan
15:58:00 [mgylling]
dauwhe, thanks for scribing
15:59:40 [tmichel]
rrsagent draft minutes
15:59:51 [tmichel]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:59:51 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate tmichel
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