12:18:54 RRSAgent has joined #csvw 12:18:54 logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/03/12-csvw-irc 12:18:56 RRSAgent, make logs public 12:18:56 Zakim has joined #csvw 12:18:58 Zakim, this will be CSVW 12:18:58 ok, trackbot; I see DATA_CSVWG()9:00AM scheduled to start in 42 minutes 12:18:59 Meeting: CSV on the Web Working Group Teleconference 12:18:59 Date: 12 March 2014 12:19:29 Chair: Dan 12:19:29 Scribe: Jeremy 12:46:14 AndyS has joined #csvw 12:48:31 did i ever send around my old lqraps experiment? http://danbri.org/words/2008/02/29/287 -> http://svn.foaf-project.org/foaftown/2010/lqraps/lqraps.html 12:55:22 can we get a backup scribe volunteer for when Jeremy's talking about http://w3c.github.io/csvw/use-cases-and-requirements/ ? 12:55:52 AxelPolleres has joined #csvw 12:56:15 ericstephan has joined #csvw 12:56:45 gkellogg has joined #csvw 12:57:15 jtandy has joined #csvw 12:57:16 DATA_CSVWG()9:00AM has now started 12:57:23 + +1.509.554.aaaa 12:57:31 - +1.509.554.aaaa 12:57:32 DATA_CSVWG()9:00AM has ended 12:57:32 Attendees were +1.509.554.aaaa 12:57:54 DATA_CSVWG()9:00AM has now started 12:58:01 + +1.509.554.aaaa 12:58:30 DavideCeolin has joined #csvw 12:58:30 zakim, ericstephan is +1.509.554.aaaa 12:58:31 sorry, ericstephan, I do not recognize a party named 'ericstephan' 12:58:40 +[IPcaller] 12:58:48 zakim, IPcaller is me 12:58:48 +AndyS; got it 12:59:00 zakim, +1.509.554.aaa is ericstephan 12:59:00 +ericstephan; got it 12:59:03 zakim, who is on the phone? 12:59:03 On the phone I see ericstephan, AndyS 12:59:22 +??P12 12:59:35 zakim, ??P12 is me 12:59:35 +DavideCeolin; got it 12:59:54 +??P13 12:59:58 zakim, I am ??P13 12:59:58 +gkellogg; got it 13:00:09 +??P14 13:00:29 Zakim, ??P14 is probably me 13:00:29 +AxelPolleres?; got it 13:00:34 +??P15 13:00:39 +??P17 13:00:57 zakim, ??P17 is me 13:00:57 +jtandy; got it 13:01:04 zakim, code? 13:01:04 the conference code is 2789 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), ivan 13:01:07 scribe: Jeremy Tandy 13:01:16 scribenick: jtandy 13:01:40 +ivan 13:01:48 zakim, who is here? 13:01:48 On the phone I see ericstephan, AndyS, DavideCeolin, gkellogg, AxelPolleres?, danbri, jtandy, ivan 13:01:51 On IRC I see DavideCeolin, jtandy, gkellogg, ericstephan, AxelPolleres, AndyS, Zakim, RRSAgent, danbri, ivan, fresco, trackbot 13:01:55 thanks ivan :) 13:02:03 +[Ugent] 13:02:25 can hear you dan, but with some echo 13:02:50 introductions ... 13:03:21 waiting for any addtitional participants 13:03:23 https://www.w3.org/2013/csvw/wiki/Meeting_Agenda_2014-03-12 13:03:31 mielvds has joined #csvw 13:03:32 zakim, Ugent is Anastasia 13:03:32 +Anastasia; got it 13:03:37 s/addtitional/additional/ 13:03:38 http://www.w3.org/2014/03/05-csvw-minutes.html 13:03:45 seeking approval for minutes? 13:03:50 no objections 13:04:03 minutes approved 13:04:16 zakim, who is noisy? 13:04:17 Zakim, mute me 13:04:17 AxelPolleres? should now be muted 13:04:20 andimou has joined #csvw 13:04:27 ivan, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: danbri (85%) 13:05:06 Spec looks OK to me. 13:05:15 Indeed, too good 13:05:21 topic: Model for Tabular Data and Metadata on the Web 13:05:25 http://w3c.github.io/csvw/syntax/ 13:05:34 http://w3c.github.io/csvw/syntax/ 13:05:46 +[IPcaller] 13:05:58 AndyS: current document is perhaps too polished for FPWD? 13:06:24 Zakim, Ugent is andimou 13:06:24 sorry, mielvds, I do not recognize a party named 'Ugent' 13:06:25 ... need to include some technical requirements to improve potential engagement 13:06:47 danbri: so this looks too finished? 13:06:59 stasinos has joined #csvW 13:07:00 s/need/it might be nice/ 13:07:08 AndyS: but then again, let's publish 13:07:12 q+ 13:07:19 Zakim, Anastasia is andimou 13:07:19 +andimou; got it 13:07:26 Zakim, mute me 13:07:26 andimou should now be muted 13:07:37 danbri: does anyone think we are / are not ready to submit this for FPWD 13:08:19 +[IPcaller] 13:08:27 zakim, IPcaller is me 13:08:27 +stasinos; got it 13:08:33 q+ 13:08:38 zakim, mute me 13:08:38 stasinos should now be muted 13:08:40 ack ivan 13:08:45 ivan: missing the proposed "how to find metadata" section as from the email thread http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-csv-wg/2014Mar/0043.html 13:08:54 maybe add a Note making that non-only-csv-scope clear? 13:09:17 fresco: nothing to add; note that the section on Parsing is work in progress ... 13:09:29 danbri: that's fine, it's FPWD 13:09:46 fresco: would like to edit some "wrong" parts in the algorithm 13:09:54 ... should be able to do this this week 13:09:58 q- 13:10:17 danbri: any open issues? 13:10:25 ... lets step through the open issues 13:10:32 looking, http://w3c.github.io/csvw/syntax/ 'It might be useful to define annotated regions as follows" 13:10:35 ... issue 1, annotated regions 13:10:48 ... issue 2, content types for CSV 13:11:10 q? 13:11:16 ... we're not getting far with issue by issue review 13:11:37 see mention of 'mime' in http://www.w3.org/2014/03/05-csvw-minutes.html 13:12:04 ivan: regarding content type, we discussed this last week with Yakov (?) ... the doc needs to be updated to reflect those discussions. 13:12:18 action: danbri make sure syntax doc updated in light of mar 5 mimetype discussion 13:12:18 Created ACTION-1 - Make sure syntax doc updated in light of mar 5 mimetype discussion [on Dan Brickley - due 2014-03-19]. 13:12:31 action: danbri to make sure the syntax doc includes the discussion from the mailing list 13:12:31 Created ACTION-2 - Make sure the syntax doc includes the discussion from the mailing list [on Dan Brickley - due 2014-03-19]. 13:12:46 s/Yakof (?)/Yakov/ 13:12:56 scribe: Dan Brickley 13:12:58 scribe: danbri 13:13:02 scribenick: danbri 13:13:02 scribe-nick: danbri 13:13:15 topic: use cases and requirements 13:13:23 jeremy: excellent progress on use cases doc, http://w3c.github.io/csvw/use-cases-and-requirements/ 13:13:32 in terms of our status we have about 14 use cases already in the doc 13:13:42 eric is still in process of adding a few more usecases in 13:13:53 [eric confirms, 2 more to add.] 13:14:13 eric: those 2, … one is the city trees spreadsheet, city of palo alto, 13:14:30 jeremy: other is displaying carehome locations on a map 13:14:49 … similar to tree one in that it is geospatial, but also has an interesting web widget aspect 13:14:58 jeremy: in terms of use cases that are already in the doc, … 13:15:12 -AxelPolleres? 13:15:13 eric has been getting set up w/ git. 13:15:34 re use cases 7, 12 and 17, they don't currently have any binding to requirements 13:15:47 +??P14 13:15:48 eric: […] were combined, … 13:15:58 Zakim, ??P14 is me 13:15:58 +AxelPolleres; got it 13:16:05 Zakim, mute me 13:16:05 AxelPolleres should now be muted 13:16:08 jeremy: it reads more smoothly now 13:16:21 … but look at uc 7 now, there is no ref to requirements currently within the text 13:16:35 compare for example w/ 8 from davide, which is clearer about its requirements. 13:16:56 we need to put in an explicit rel between the uc and the requirements that motivate it, based on existing examples 13:17:14 jeremy: if we find requirements we haven't covered yet, we can add more requirements 13:17:26 e.g. in 7 we might want to add something for substructure 13:17:29 ivan: e.g. dates? 13:17:50 jeremy: like a microsyntax, … in this case, the uc we're talking about, list of author names is a comma-deliminated list 13:17:51 q+ 13:18:00 .. we've talked about replicates on prev calls 13:18:09 s/call/queue/ 13:18:15 ack fresco 13:18:40 fresco is talking 13:18:51 fresco: will send another example to the list 13:19:04 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-csv-wg/2014Mar/0063.html 13:19:19 jeremy: also sent an email to public list on substructure <- url 13:19:40 other things before FPWD: we need to renumber the use cases, currently they reflect the numbers in our wiki page rather than seq for the doc 13:19:46 … remove the other usecases section 13:19:56 … there is a proposal from jeni to cluster the requirements 13:20:09 … currently they are all filed as 'proposed' vs 'accepted' 13:20:25 ivan: i think it's ok [to leave as proposed] 13:20:35 … this doc isn't planned as a REC 13:20:54 ivan: socially it's ok if we say 'proposed' as 1st draft 13:21:01 q+ 13:21:02 jeremy: yes, that allows wider engagement 13:21:04 q? 13:21:26 q+ 13:21:28 jeremy: some more work to be done pulling out requirements 13:21:53 eric: one thing i was doing on the journal example, was going to the live web site, … 13:22:06 … as a matter of policy is it better to link to live websearch or a screenshot? 13:22:27 jeremy: what i've done is taken a snippet of the data, ... 13:23:29 danbri: ivan, any advice? 13:23:37 ivan: safer for final doc, for draft i don't mind so much 13:23:53 jeremy: change or ultimately dissapear 13:24:08 ivan: if you think screenshot now is safer, go for it; if around for a year, we can worry later 13:24:42 jeremy: for me, so long as we capture the motivation and we have sufficient info captured, that's enough provenance to justify the spec, no need to completely reconstruct everything 13:25:28 danbri: can also just copy screenshot into wiki or github repo, even if not used ultimately in the doc 13:25:37 ack DavideCeolin 13:25:40 eric: also i found using the live website very useful 13:25:48 davide: just to confirm i am indeed reconstructing use case 20 13:26:06 … as j mentioned it does need some attention, and there may be more requirements found, or mapped, as i do this 13:26:14 … others are ok but open for comments 13:26:22 … working on those last 2 use cases 13:26:33 jeremy: use case no.20, representing entities and facts extracted from text 13:26:39 … reading it now, a typo in title 13:26:48 … but also note that there is potential for substructure in a given field 13:26:52 q? 13:26:56 ack ericstephan 13:27:11 jeremy: other things: any latent requirements coming from csv-ld proposal? 13:27:21 q+ 13:27:22 i've not tried linking into that, or csv2rdf email thread 13:27:25 q+ 13:27:35 ack ivan 13:27:43 ivan: these are slightly two different things 13:28:06 the way i read gregg's mail is jumping ahead to possible solutions 13:28:12 … less on use cases, more on technology 13:28:30 [gregg, can you comment? I was going to say same as Ivan] 13:28:34 q- 13:28:54 ivan: it would be good to have [the rdb2rdf stuff] in the doc somewhere 13:29:05 q+ to briefly discuss CSV-LD 13:29:07 can add a placeholder saying 'here is an area where we need use cases' 13:29:18 jeremy: there are two use cases with a csv 2 rdf conversion 13:29:32 the land registry data, … and digital preservation use case 13:29:48 ivan: i'd still like to see the same type of use cases for json and xml 13:30:03 danbri: maybe nobody cares about those? :) 13:30:19 action: jeremy add an issue into UC doc about lack of json and xml conversion 13:30:19 Created ACTION-3 - Add an issue into uc doc about lack of json and xml conversion [on Jeremy Tandy - due 2014-03-19]. 13:30:31 The charter has a link to CVS to XML 13:30:39 ivan: we should talk to rufus as he had csv 2 json centrally in their work 13:30:44 q? 13:31:10 -AxelPolleres 13:31:12 gregg: without going into details, csv-ld, itt was a brain dump following jeni's earlier work 13:31:18 … thought it was worth capturing 13:31:20 q+ 13:31:30 ack gkellogg 13:31:30 gkellogg, you wanted to briefly discuss CSV-LD 13:31:36 worth comparing with [?] to see how it maps 13:31:56 technology wise there was also the RML mail, talking about json, xml and csv in an integrated matter: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-csv-wg/2014Feb/0132.html 13:32:12 danbri: any motivations for csv-ld that aren't in our UC doc? 13:32:22 q+ 13:32:33 gregg: there are a couple in the doc 13:32:35 ack danbri 13:32:39 +??P24 13:32:40 ack danbri 13:32:40 ack jtandy 13:32:44 ack jtandy 13:32:58 Zakim, ??P24 is me 13:32:58 +AxelPolleres; got it 13:33:04 jtandy: to confirm, gregg will cross-ref the csv-ld and compare requirements, and identify anything missing 13:33:14 actioN: gregg cross-ref the csv-ld and compare requirements, and identify anything missing 13:33:14 Created ACTION-4 - Cross-ref the csv-ld and compare requirements, and identify anything missing [on Gregg Kellogg - due 2014-03-19]. 13:33:26 q? 13:33:47 jtandy: looking at outstanding issues in UC doc 13:34:13 1st issue: in dig preservation use case, waiting on feedback from original donor (adam ritter(?)) 13:34:16 http://w3c.github.io/csvw/use-cases-and-requirements/#UC-DigitalPreservationOfGovernmentRecords 13:34:25 s/ritter/retter/ 13:34:58 jtandy: issue 2, related to pointing to regions within a csv; haven't seen a req to do this yet, so raised an issue. 13:35:02 ivan: also in syntax doc 13:35:07 jtandy: so we have consensus at least 13:35:20 jtandy: issue 3, the 0-edit compatibility requirement is currently orphaned 13:35:35 when i reorg'd, this was left dangling 13:36:02 issue 4: need def for data schema from jenit contrib'd uc on public roles, salaries 13:36:15 issue no 4, need def for data schema from jenit contrib'd uc on public roles, salaries 13:37:00 action: jenit provide data definition schema for public roles and salaries to jeremy for UC doc 13:37:01 Created ACTION-5 - Provide data definition schema for public roles and salaries to jeremy for uc doc [on Jeni Tennison - due 2014-03-19]. 13:37:23 5th issue, clustering into sections. 13:37:38 6th issue, need correct ref for RDF. Is it 1.1? 13:37:41 danbri, ivan: yes 13:38:05 action: ivan mail jtandy correct reference for rdf1.1 13:38:05 Created ACTION-6 - Mail jtandy correct reference for rdf1.1 [on Ivan Herman - due 2014-03-19]. 13:38:24 q? 13:38:30 q+ 13:38:32 more comments from eric, davide? 13:38:37 no, no. 13:38:48 scribe: Jeremy Tandy 13:38:48 RDF 1.1 Concepts 13:38:52 -danbri 13:38:55 scribenick: jtandy 13:39:01 crap, i lost audio 13:39:08 please keep discussing UCs, bbiab 13:40:06 ivan: one question ... use cases are structural in terms of the CSV file itself ... should we have use cases about the problems raised by size of CSV files 13:40:08 +??P15 13:40:12 -AxelPolleres 13:40:21 ... these CSVs might be gigabytes long 13:40:24 Nice point Ivan 13:40:42 ... example in the UK, national (?) service 13:40:49 biologists are real "troublemakers" in this area ;-) 13:40:55 in https://www.w3.org/2013/csvw/wiki/Meeting_Agenda_2014-03-12 we have "FPWD decision" 13:40:56 ... data is too big for most applications to manage 13:41:03 q+ 13:41:08 ack ivan 13:41:13 ack jtandy 13:41:19 q+ to ask what a supercomputer is 13:41:36 +??P24 13:41:43 Zakim, ??P24 is me 13:41:43 +AxelPolleres; got it 13:42:09 q? 13:42:19 Zakim, mute me 13:42:19 AxelPolleres should now be muted 13:42:20 jtandy: there are several use cases that already reflect that size is an issue 13:42:25 q- 13:42:56 ericstephan: there are other problems about "size" such as the number of columns 13:43:31 ivan: the problem I see relates to the number of rows 13:43:37 q+ to ask if we have cluster-oriented (map reduce etc) scenarios 13:43:50 ?: look for a requirement to stream arbitrary numbers of rows 13:43:59 and lots of cols and very large cell entries 13:44:12 danbri: XML close tags make streaming difficult 13:44:38 danbri: any use cases dealign with clustered computing / map reduce 13:44:43 jtandy: no 13:44:53 q+ 13:44:57 ack danbri 13:44:57 danbri, you wanted to ask if we have cluster-oriented (map reduce etc) scenarios 13:45:10 danbri: jeremy davide eric, when are we ready for FPWD? 13:45:22 danbri: are we ready for FPWD on use cases? not yet ... how long 13:45:33 DavideCeolin: at most a couple of days for me 13:45:46 ericstephan: hoping to get done by friday 13:46:10 q? 13:46:11 danbri: should have the doc ready to review for release as FPWD net week 13:46:14 ack ivan 13:47:10 ivan: from end of march, I will be unavailable for 2-weeks ... conferences and meetings 13:47:22 [bg noise] 13:47:26 ... suggest that we aim to publish for w/c 24 March ... 13:47:35 zakim, who is making noise? 13:47:42 ... the process means we do this on tuesday or thursday 13:47:45 AndyS, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: danbri (9%), jtandy (24%), ivan (100%) 13:48:07 ... either the 26th or 28th 13:48:22 q+ 13:48:23 ... we need to send the docs to the publishers 13:48:57 ... need formal resolution next week for _BOTH_ documents to allow time for the publishing process 13:49:25 ... need a formal vote on next week's teleconf 13:49:47 danbri: allow 1 or 2 days for participants to review 13:50:02 ... therefore get ready to share on Monday 13:50:04 q+ 13:50:08 ack andys 13:50:36 AndyS: there's no direct reference to CSV+ ... do we need to clarify? 13:51:15 ivan: we do have an item in the charter on the metadata ... this is the core of the recommendation, everything else is non-normative 13:51:33 ... certain work will be given to IETF to standardise CSV 13:52:03 AndyS: tabular data places additional rules on CSV to make it amendable ... 13:52:21 ... if your comfortable that we've got the issues covered then OK 13:52:31 "The titles of the deliverables are not final; the Working Group will have to decide on the final titles as well as the structures of the documents. The Working Group may also decide to merge some deliverables into one document or produce several documents that together constitute one of the deliverables." http://www.w3.org/2013/05/lcsv-charter 13:52:52 danbri: there's enough wiggle room, but we should write down the mapping from doc to the charter 13:53:20 AndyS: lack of explicit naming can lengthen the publishing process (and has done in other WGs) 13:54:05 ivan: if we want to publish w/c 27th so we need a vote next week 13:54:24 danbri: Ivan - please have a chat with Ralf in parallel to group vote 13:54:32 (ralph) 13:54:45 ivan: let's do this with Ivan, Jeni and danbri 13:54:49 danbri: ok 13:55:02 ... between the three of us 13:55:10 action: danbri with jenit, ivan talk to ralph about fpwd doc names w.r.t. charter 13:55:10 Created ACTION-7 - With jenit, ivan talk to ralph about fpwd doc names w.r.t. charter [on Dan Brickley - due 2014-03-19]. 13:55:27 q? 13:55:30 ack jtandy 13:55:40 jtandy: not available for next week's call 13:55:46 will submit a 'postal vote' 13:56:44 regrets for next week as well, but FWIW I (WU) am fine to publish FPWD, if it is allowed to pre-vote. 13:57:09 danbri: scribe volunteer for next week 13:57:13 [silence] 13:57:19 topic: TPAC 13:57:31 danbri: face to face meeting at TPAC 13:57:57 ... TPAC is great 13:58:05 ... any objections to meeting at TPAC? 13:58:08 [silence] 13:58:13 ivan: nothing to add 13:58:20 Santa Barbara? 13:58:29 I believe TPAC is in Santa Clara again this year. 13:58:29 http://www.w3.org/2014/11/TPAC/ 13:58:54 danbri: aim for the monday / tuesday WG slot 13:59:02 27-31 OCTOBER 2014 despite the 2014/11 13:59:14 danbri: aim to fill out form with Jeni later this week 13:59:23 danbri: out of time 13:59:25 -ericstephan 13:59:28 -gkellogg 13:59:29 ... thanks 13:59:29 -ivan 13:59:31 -DavideCeolin 13:59:31 -danbri 13:59:32 -AxelPolleres 13:59:32 -fresco 13:59:35 -AndyS 13:59:35 thanks all! 13:59:41 -jtandy 13:59:49 -stasinos 13:59:55 -andimou 13:59:56 DATA_CSVWG()9:00AM has ended 13:59:56 Attendees were +1.509.554.aaaa, AndyS, ericstephan, DavideCeolin, gkellogg, AxelPolleres?, danbri, jtandy, ivan, fresco, andimou, stasinos, AxelPolleres 14:00:03 TPAC is generally a much more interesting trip than travelling just to one WG meeting 14:00:16 (but it takes a week out of your life) 14:01:55 AndyS has left #csvw 14:02:00 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:02:00 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/03/12-csvw-minutes.html ivan 14:02:12 trackbot, end telcon 14:02:12 Zakim, list attendees 14:02:12 sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is 14:02:20 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 14:02:20 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/03/12-csvw-minutes.html trackbot 14:02:21 RRSAgent, bye 14:02:21 I see 7 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2014/03/12-csvw-actions.rdf : 14:02:21 ACTION: danbri make sure syntax doc updated in light of mar 5 mimetype discussion [1] 14:02:21 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/03/12-csvw-irc#T13-12-18 14:02:21 ACTION: danbri to make sure the syntax doc includes the discussion from the mailing list [2] 14:02:21 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/03/12-csvw-irc#T13-12-31 14:02:21 ACTION: jeremy add an issue into UC doc about lack of json and xml conversion [3] 14:02:21 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/03/12-csvw-irc#T13-30-19 14:02:21 ACTION: gregg cross-ref the csv-ld and compare requirements, and identify anything missing [4] 14:02:21 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/03/12-csvw-irc#T13-33-14 14:02:21 ACTION: jenit provide data definition schema for public roles and salaries to jeremy for UC doc [5] 14:02:21 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/03/12-csvw-irc#T13-37-00 14:02:21 ACTION: ivan mail jtandy correct reference for rdf1.1 [6] 14:02:21 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/03/12-csvw-irc#T13-38-05 14:02:21 ACTION: danbri with jenit, ivan talk to ralph about fpwd doc names w.r.t. charter [7] 14:02:21 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/03/12-csvw-irc#T13-55-10