13:30:02 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #eo
13:30:02 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/03/07-eo-irc
13:30:04 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
13:30:04 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #eo
13:30:06 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 3694
13:30:06 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_EOWG()8:30AM scheduled to start now
13:30:07 <trackbot> Meeting: Education and Outreach Working Group Teleconference
13:30:07 <trackbot> Date: 07 March 2014
13:30:30 <shawn> zakim, who is on the phone?
13:30:30 <Zakim> WAI_EOWG()8:30AM has not yet started, shawn
13:30:32 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, shawn, Bim, yatil, trackbot
13:30:54 <shawn> zakim, this is 3694
13:30:54 <Zakim> ok, shawn; that matches WAI_EOWG()8:30AM
13:30:56 <Sylvie> Sylvie has joined #eo
13:30:59 <shawn> zakim, who is on the phone?
13:30:59 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P1, Shawn
13:31:23 <shawn> zakim, P1 is Bim
13:31:23 <Zakim> sorry, shawn, I do not recognize a party named 'P1'
13:31:28 <shawn> zakim, ??P1 is Bim
13:31:28 <Zakim> +Bim; got it
13:32:11 <Zakim> +PaulSchantz
13:32:16 <paulschantz> paulschantz has joined #eo
13:32:24 <yatil> zakim, call EricE-Skype
13:32:25 <Zakim> ok, yatil; the call is being made
13:32:25 <Zakim> +EricE
13:32:28 <Zakim> + +1.512.797.aaaa
13:32:41 <yatil> zakim, nick yatil is EricE
13:32:41 <Zakim> ok, yatil, I now associate you with EricE
13:32:43 <yatil> zakim, mute me
13:32:44 <Zakim> EricE should now be muted
13:33:06 <Zakim> +Sylvie_Duchateau
13:33:19 <Sylvie> zakim, mute me
13:33:19 <Zakim> Sylvie_Duchateau should now be muted
13:34:25 <Zakim> + +44.137.383.aabb
13:34:26 <Bim> zakim, mute me
13:34:26 <Zakim> Bim should now be muted
13:34:33 <shawn> zakim, aaaa is Sharron
13:34:34 <Zakim> +Sharron; got it
13:35:18 <shawn> zakim, aabb is Liam
13:35:18 <Zakim> +Liam; got it
13:35:47 <shawn> zakim, who is on the phone?
13:35:47 <Zakim> On the phone I see Bim (muted), Shawn, PaulSchantz, EricE (muted), Sharron, Sylvie_Duchateau (muted), Liam
13:36:26 <shawn> scribe: Paul
13:36:37 <shawn> scribenick:PaulSchantz
13:36:44 <Zakim> + +1.512.731.aacc
13:36:59 <shawn> zakim, aacc is Jan
13:36:59 <Zakim> +Jan; got it
13:37:10 <Zakim> + +1.562.256.aadd
13:37:23 <Zakim> +Howard
13:37:27 <Bim> zakim, unmute me
13:37:27 <Zakim> Bim should no longer be muted
13:37:35 <shawn> zakim, aadd is Wayne
13:37:35 <Zakim> +Wayne; got it
13:37:51 <shawn> zakim, who is on the phone?
13:37:51 <Zakim> On the phone I see Bim, Shawn, PaulSchantz, EricE (muted), Sharron, Sylvie_Duchateau (muted), Liam, Jan, Wayne, Howard
13:38:17 <yatil> ack me
13:38:26 <paulschantz> Bim:  introduction
13:38:36 <Bim> zakim, mute me
13:38:36 <Zakim> Bim should now be muted
13:38:43 <paulschantz> Eric:  Introduction
13:39:03 <yatil> zakim, mute me
13:39:03 <Zakim> EricE should now be muted
13:39:16 <paulschantz> Jan:  Introduction
13:40:02 <paulschantz> Paul:  Introuction
13:40:09 <paulschantz> Howard:  Introduction
13:40:53 <paulschantz> Liam:  Introduction
13:41:26 <paulschantz> Topic: Images tutorial
13:41:30 <shawn> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/tutorials/images/
13:41:54 <shawn> open issues: https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Tutorials#Feedback_on_4_March_version
13:42:08 <LiamM> LiamM has joined #eo
13:42:08 <yatil> ack me
13:42:29 <LiamM> zakim, who is on the call?
13:42:29 <Zakim> On the phone I see Bim (muted), Shawn, PaulSchantz, EricE, Sharron, Sylvie_Duchateau (muted), Liam, Jan, Wayne, Howard
13:42:39 <Howard_> Howard_ has joined #eo
13:42:54 <paulschantz> Eric:  thanks to Bim for great feedback
13:43:10 <Howard_> zakim, mute me
13:43:10 <Zakim> sorry, Howard_, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
13:43:45 <Howard_> zakim, Howard_ is Howard
13:43:45 <Zakim> sorry, Howard_, I do not recognize a party named 'Howard_'
13:43:46 <paulschantz> Eric:  bottlecap image - are there any copyright issues with using this image?
13:43:50 <yatil> -> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/tutorials/images/informative/#image-conveying-succinct-information
13:43:54 <Bim> zakim, mute me
13:43:54 <Zakim> Bim was already muted, Bim
13:44:15 <Howard_> zakim, mute Howard
13:44:15 <Zakim> Howard should now be muted
13:44:37 <Howard_> zakim, Howard is Howard_
13:44:37 <Zakim> +Howard_; got it
13:45:02 <paulschantz> Eric:  we need an image that matches the alt text
13:46:38 <paulschantz> Shawn:  we'll check on the copyright off-line
13:46:49 <LiamM> Google says re photos of trademarked or copyrighted works: http://www.danheller.com/model-release-copyrights.html
13:48:10 <Jan> Jan has joined #eo
13:48:33 <paulschantz> Liam:  the Google article indicates that we're probably fine
13:48:57 <yatil> -> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/tutorials/images/textual/#alternative-approach
13:49:03 <LiamM> q+ to ask about autogenerated complex images when appropriate
13:49:28 <paulschantz> Eric:  I added CSS equivalent to an image (your access to the city)
13:50:32 <paulschantz> Eric:  we don't display vendor prefixes, should we describe those?
13:51:17 <paulschantz> Shawn:  can you say more about this, Eric?
13:53:07 <paulschantz> Eric:  vendor prefixes in CSS transforms are code that indicate which vendor's browser that code works in.  Do we need to have more details about that?
13:54:20 <paulschantz> Shawn:  can we change the example so that the vendor prefix descriptions are not necessary?  We might be able to avoid the whole question...
13:54:51 <paulschantz> Eric:  I think it's important to show that you can use the new tools to make your site more attractive AND accessible
13:55:05 <paulschantz> Shawn:  can we provide a link to additional resources?
13:55:12 <paulschantz> Eric:  yes, we can do that
13:55:39 <paulschantz> Eric:  CSS spec is good for that
13:55:40 <Sharron> Sharron has joined #eo
13:55:45 <paulschantz> Shawn:  let's link to that then
13:55:52 <yatil> -> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/tutorials/images/textual/#code-snippet-for-math-ml
13:56:25 <paulschantz> Eric:  MathML does not seem to work in any browsers at the moment
13:56:40 <paulschantz> Shawn:  we should talk to the MathML experts for their perspective on this
13:57:05 <paulschantz> Wayne:  actually we do
13:57:35 <paulschantz> Shawn:  Eric and Wayne please follow up on this regarding practical examples we can use
13:58:07 <LiamM> Browser support chart: http://caniuse.com/mathml
13:58:15 <paulschantz> Wayne:  I'll know a lot more about this in a month
13:59:23 <LiamM> Also see http://www.mathjax.org/demos/mathml-samples/
13:59:25 <paulschantz> Wayne:  I'll be up-to-speed in about a month, especially after CSUN conference
14:00:36 <Zakim> -Sharron
14:00:45 <Sharron> scribe: Sharron
14:00:45 <shawn> scribe:Jan
14:01:20 <shawn> ack l
14:01:20 <Zakim> LiamM, you wanted to ask about autogenerated complex images when appropriate
14:01:32 <Zakim> +Sharron
14:02:00 <LiamM> http://bl.ocks.org/mbostock/7607999
14:02:04 <shawn> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/tutorials/images/complex/
14:02:26 <Wayne> Wayne has joined #eo
14:02:31 <Jan> Liam: Interactive chart that shows how various dependency fit together
14:03:18 <Jan> ...how do we address these kinds of complicated data?
14:03:28 <Jan> Wayne: What about the ARIA grid option?
14:03:42 <Jan> Liam: Can you do multiple arrays & even if you do, is it useful?
14:03:59 <Jan> Eric: That is going to need a lot of testing - such examples are really complicated
14:04:13 <Jan> ... with ARIA, you still have to break them down so that they are not too complicated
14:04:50 <Jan> Liam: this is probably out of scope of this tutorial, but we should still probably speak to someone about this.
14:05:01 <Jan> Wayne: A table is actually a three-dimensional graph
14:05:26 <Jan> ... four dimensions is pretty hard
14:05:38 <Jan> Liam: unless you reduce them down to three
14:07:02 <paulschantz> scribe:  Paul
14:07:08 <paulschantz> scribenick:  Paul
14:07:22 <shawn> scribenick:paulschantz
14:07:23 <Jan> Shawn: We don't really have an answer for this right now, but we might want to put it in later after we have explored this further. Liam - you may want to present this to the WAI interest group and then once there's a solution, we can discuss implementing it in the tutorial.
14:08:55 <paulschantz> Eric:  I'd really like to collect advanced ARIA examples with respect to complex images
14:09:34 <paulschantz> Shawn:  I think it's best to go directly to the ARIA folks or the recent WCAG threads
14:10:00 <paulschantz> Eric:  will do
14:11:03 <paulschantz> Shawn:  I don't think people saw my final comments...I think adding the text adds visual complexity and we probably should not include this info.
14:11:16 <paulschantz> Wayne:  would this tutorial make more sense with a different style sheet?
14:11:21 <paulschantz> Shawn:  try it :-)
14:11:41 <shawn> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Tutorials#Drafts_in_place_and_announcements_March_2014
14:11:50 <paulschantz> Shawn:  next point is putting draft in place and making announcement in March
14:12:37 <paulschantz> Shawn:  we'd like to have tutorials draft ready in time for CSUN (keeping "draft" on it),
14:12:43 <Howard_> +1
14:12:52 <paulschantz> Shawn:  can I get plus ones on that from the group?
14:12:54 <paulschantz> +1
14:13:13 <yatil> zakim, mute me
14:13:13 <Zakim> EricE should now be muted
14:13:16 <paulschantz> Shawn:  do we announce these as early drafts before CSUN?
14:13:57 <paulschantz> Sharron:  no, but fine to talk about it.  Maybe we should think about it as a "soft launch"
14:15:18 <paulschantz> Shawn:  what if we mention this is something that we're working on?  It could generate excitement around the work and help crowdsource some help.
14:15:59 <LiamM> LiamM has joined #eo
14:17:19 <yatil> q+ to note that I’ve added the other tutorials, also that it is a more living document
14:17:22 <paulschantz> Sharron:  that's a good point.  The items we have are solid, but there are still a number of unresolved details we really ought to finish.
14:18:09 <paulschantz> Wayne:  I understand what you're all getting at now.  What about a compromise?  This isn't vaporware...getting opinions would be good
14:18:44 <shawn> ack yatil
14:18:51 <shawn> ack e
14:18:51 <LiamM> +1
14:18:52 <Zakim> EricE, you wanted to note that I’ve added the other tutorials, also that it is a more living document
14:18:56 <paulschantz> Wayne:  this is not an empty announcement; even our draft document is really solid
14:19:18 <shawn> in-progress
14:20:14 <paulschantz> Eric:  I think this is more of a "living document" and we should leverage github for developer comments
14:20:23 <yatil> zakim, mute me
14:20:23 <Zakim> EricE should now be muted
14:21:19 <paulschantz> Paul:  having it in github is likely to garner more developer interest
14:21:25 <Sharron> OK with announcing as work in progress
14:21:35 <paulschantz> Shawn:  are we comfortable announcing this as work in progress?
14:21:38 <Bim> +1
14:21:44 <yatil> +1
14:21:45 <Wayne> +1
14:21:47 <paulschantz> +1
14:21:50 <Howard_> +1
14:21:51 <paulschantz> Jan:  +1
14:21:53 <Sylvie> +1
14:22:16 <paulschantz> Shawn:  thanks for that!
14:22:22 <paulschantz> Topic:  Easy Checks
14:22:22 <LiamM> +1
14:22:37 <shawn> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Easy_Checks#Move_updates_to_main_public_page_March_2014
14:22:42 <yatil> ack me
14:23:02 <Howard_> I'm there
14:23:09 <yatil> zakim, mute me
14:23:09 <Zakim> EricE should now be muted
14:23:28 <Howard_> zakim, ack me
14:23:28 <Zakim> unmuting Howard_
14:23:29 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
14:24:48 <paulschantz> Shawn:  are people ok with moving illustrations to main public Easy Checks page?
14:25:52 <paulschantz> Wayne:  is the expand all sections/collapse all sections a part of this?  Contrast isn't great
14:26:01 <paulschantz> Shawn:  no, that's part of the general UI questions
14:26:23 <Howard_> zakim, mute me
14:26:23 <Zakim> Howard_ should now be muted
14:26:30 <yatil> +1
14:26:34 <Howard_> +1
14:26:42 <Sharron> +1
14:26:46 <paulschantz> +1
14:26:47 <Bim> +1 to illustrations to main
14:26:48 <Wayne> +1
14:26:50 <paulschantz> Jan: +1
14:27:36 <Bim> +1 to announcement
14:27:37 <paulschantz> Shawn:  should we make an announcement that we have an updated draft of Easy Checks?
14:27:39 <Howard_> zakim, ack me
14:27:39 <Zakim> unmuting Howard_
14:27:40 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
14:28:33 <paulschantz> Howard:  reads comments from EO member in wiki
14:28:46 <Howard_> zakim, mute me
14:28:46 <Zakim> Howard_ should now be muted
14:29:02 <paulschantz> Shawn:  any other thoughts on making an announcement?
14:29:35 <paulschantz> Topic:  ATAG Promotion
14:29:56 <paulschantz> Shawn:  Sharron, Paul and others have been working on this.
14:30:35 <paulschantz> Sharron:  ATAG promotion page has all the information about promotional ideas we've been working on
14:31:02 <paulschantz> Sharron:  Paul said Wayne's idea of haikus was actually pretty good
14:31:07 <Sharron> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Outreach_for_ATAG_2.0#CSUN_2014
14:31:11 <paulschantz> Sharron:  I've ordered buttons to hand out on the floor
14:31:35 <paulschantz> Sharron:  we have cards too with information about how people can get involved either via testing or implementation
14:32:13 <Jan> Jan has joined #eo
14:33:10 <paulschantz> Sharron:  Judy said we needed something about the date on the cards.  In the future, the cards may have less relevance
14:33:37 <paulschantz> Sharron:  Eric suggested something about shortening the links, are there any official ones that W3C uses?
14:33:56 <paulschantz> Shawn:  I can direct you to the right person...
14:34:07 <Sharron> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Outreach_for_ATAG_2.0#Help_ATAG2.0_Progress_to_Final_Recommendation
14:34:32 <paulschantz> Sharron:  we want to add a paragraph summarizing our progress
14:36:04 <paulschantz> Sharron:  maybe we should move progress notes to the top of the page to spur interest / involvement?
14:37:50 <paulschantz> Shawn:  does EO have any reactions to this material?  Suggestions?
14:38:18 <paulschantz> Jan:  my division in Pearson is interested in helping with this effort at CSUN
14:38:25 <paulschantz> Sharron:  great!
14:38:30 <shawn> q+ to ask non-at vendors
14:39:27 <Bim> I like the Business Card text
14:39:36 <paulschantz> Shawn:  what would you think if you received this card at the conference?
14:39:36 <shawn> ack me
14:39:36 <Zakim> shawn, you wanted to ask non-at vendors
14:41:22 <paulschantz> Shawn:  would addition of non-at vendor text in these materials be helpful or not?
14:41:38 <paulschantz> Paul:  I think implementation and testing messages are enough
14:41:45 <Sharron> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Outreach_for_ATAG_2.0#Consider_creation_of_new_support_material
14:42:05 <Howard_> zakim, ack me
14:42:05 <Zakim> unmuting Howard_
14:42:06 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
14:42:20 <paulschantz> Wayne:  we'll be handing these out, so we can talk about these other details in-person when we hand them out
14:42:37 <paulschantz> Shawn:  Sharron, Paul, and Wayne can you work on the elevator pitch?
14:43:43 <paulschantz> Sharron:  we can do this during our Wednesday call
14:43:45 <Howard_> zakim, mute me
14:43:45 <Zakim> Howard_ should now be muted
14:43:47 <Sharron> Sharron: Action to send invite for Wednesday afternoon call
14:44:40 <paulschantz> Sharron:  a braille version will be available at the Knowbility table
14:45:26 <paulschantz> Shawn:  when do you need card text finalized?
14:45:54 <paulschantz> Sharron:  we can get the cards done quickly...maybe a week before we leave?  The braille is the harder part.
14:46:57 <paulschantz> Shawn:  it would be helpful if Jean could look at this before going to print...
14:47:42 <paulschantz> Shawn:  thanks for your help Sharron, Paul and Wayne!
14:47:48 <paulschantz> Topic:  CSUN Brunch Location
14:48:50 <paulschantz> Shawn:  we're meeting at the Solimar Hotel.  It's a walk, but a long walk.  Jan may be getting a van and I'll have a car.
14:49:08 <paulschantz> Jan:  I'm getting a van
14:49:44 <paulschantz> Wayne:  I have a friend who knows great places to eat in downtown SD.  Will check on that.
14:50:28 <paulschantz> Shawn:  we will have about 8 people
14:50:33 <paulschantz> Topic:  Action Reminders
14:50:48 <shawn> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Action_Items
14:51:05 <paulschantz> Shawn:  review of how EO is managing / tracking projects and who is doing what
14:51:50 <shawn> Everyone - You need to record done (or abstain) for all "Everyone" actions. You do *not* need to be picky and comment on every point -- you can put something like, "OK either way" or "no opinion" or such.
14:52:17 <paulschantz> Shawn:  if there's something you committed to do, your name is attached to it.  For some things, everyone needs to comment
14:52:45 <shawn> Anyone - You are encouraged to do these, but not required.
14:53:04 <paulschantz> Shawn:  any suggestions on making this work better?
14:53:45 <paulschantz> Shawn:  each week, be sure to search for your name and those items marked "anyone" and "everyone"
14:54:14 <paulschantz> Sharron:  sometimes it's a little confusing with all the links and sections.  It's a bit of a labyrinth at times
14:54:48 <paulschantz> Wayne:  I agree it's a little difficult to wade through at times
14:56:13 <paulschantz> Shawn:  don't let the wiki be a hindrance to commenting!  Send comments by e-mail if that's your preferred mode of communicating.
14:56:35 <shawn> Sharron: we agreed it's OK to send by e-mail
14:57:03 <paulschantz> Topic:  Easy Checks Usability Testing
14:57:52 <shawn> "piblished draft" http://www.w3.org/WAI/eval/preliminary
14:58:10 <shawn> EOWG draft with in-progress updates http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/eval/checks
14:59:10 <shawn> UT https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Easy_Checks#Usability_Testing
14:59:13 <paulschantz> Shawn:  Liam, would be great to have your input on usability.  We plan to do some usability testing at CSUN conference
15:00:10 <paulschantz> Shawn:  need everyone to go back and look through Easy Checks...we're really close to calling this project "done"
15:02:14 <shawn> s/ your input on usability. / your input. /
15:02:26 <paulschantz> Sharron:  we'll be doing some usability testing at the Knowbility table at the CSUN conference and taking notes.  Bring a laptop and go through it with attendees.
15:03:47 <Zakim> -Sharron
15:03:49 <paulschantz> Shawn:  we have some things we want to test:  illustrations, definitions of markup, page titles (less important).  I'll prioritize a list.
15:04:18 <paulschantz> Shawn:  please spend some time with testing Easy Checks prior to CSUN!
15:04:20 <Zakim> +Sharron
15:05:17 <Howard_> zakim, ack me
15:05:17 <Zakim> unmuting Howard_
15:05:18 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
15:06:42 <Sharron> Sharron has joined #eo
15:07:14 <paulschantz> Wayne:  it may be helpful to have a pared-down version of Easy Checks that just shows "how you do it," without all the additional explanations
15:07:58 <paulschantz> Shawn:  please send an e-mail to the EO list.  Making the explanations collapsible is a possible option that's easy to implement
15:09:28 <paulschantz> Howard:  our disabilities department might be able to provide useful feedback
15:09:32 <Howard_> zakim, mute me
15:09:32 <Zakim> Howard_ should now be muted
15:09:59 <paulschantz> Topic:  EOWG meeting times next three weeks
15:10:26 <paulschantz> Shawn:  meeting times will be one hour different starting next week due to US daylight savings time change
15:10:51 <shawn> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Friday%207%20March%20teleconference
15:10:53 <paulschantz> Shawn:  any other topics for now?
15:11:00 <Bim> Regrets from me for next week
15:11:19 <Howard_> zakim, unmute me
15:11:19 <Zakim> Howard_ should no longer be muted
15:11:20 <yatil> ack me
15:11:25 <Zakim> -Howard_
15:11:27 <Zakim> -Liam
15:11:30 <Zakim> -Bim
15:11:32 <Zakim> -Sylvie_Duchateau
15:11:32 <yatil> zakim, drop me
15:11:32 <Zakim> EricE is being disconnected
15:11:33 <Zakim> -EricE
15:11:40 <Zakim> -Wayne
15:12:07 <Zakim> -Sharron
15:12:14 <Sharron> Sharron has left #eo
15:12:55 <paulschantz> Regrets:  Anthony, Andrew, Shadi, Vicki
15:13:02 <shawn> Regrets+ Anna Belle
15:13:14 <shawn> Regrets+ Anna Belle
15:14:08 <shawn> Chair: Shawn
15:14:32 <paulschantz> trackbot, end meeting
15:14:32 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
15:14:32 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Shawn, Bim, PaulSchantz, EricE, +1.512.797.aaaa, Sylvie_Duchateau, +44.137.383.aabb, Sharron, Liam, +1.512.731.aacc, Jan, +1.562.256.aadd,
15:14:35 <Zakim> ... Wayne, Howard_
15:14:40 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:14:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/03/07-eo-minutes.html trackbot
15:14:41 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
15:14:41 <RRSAgent> I see no action items