12:13:11 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #csvw
12:13:11 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/03/05-csvw-irc
12:13:13 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
12:13:13 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #csvw
12:13:15 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be CSVW
12:13:15 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see DATA_CSVWG()8:00AM scheduled to start in 47 minutes
12:13:16 <trackbot> Meeting: CSV on the Web Working Group Teleconference
12:13:16 <trackbot> Date: 05 March 2014
12:13:26 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting agenda: http://www.w3.org/mid/etPan.531645eb.41a7c4c9.f9@jenit.local
12:57:49 <Zakim> DATA_CSVWG()8:00AM has now started
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13:00:00 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
13:00:05 <stasinos> zakim, IPcaller is me
13:00:05 <Zakim> +stasinos; got it
13:00:11 <stasinos> zakim, mute me
13:00:11 <Zakim> stasinos should now be muted
13:00:21 <ivan> zakim, code?
13:00:21 <Zakim> the conference code is 2789 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), ivan
13:00:31 <Zakim> +Annette
13:00:43 <ivan> zakim, Annette is me
13:00:43 <Zakim> +ivan; got it
13:00:48 <Zakim> +??P3
13:00:57 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
13:00:57 <Zakim> On the phone I see fresco_, stasinos (muted), ivan, ??P3
13:00:58 <Zakim> On IRC I see DavideCeolin, stasinos, Zakim, RRSAgent, ivan, trackbot, fresco
13:01:03 <DavideCeolin> zakim, ??P3 is me
13:01:03 <Zakim> +DavideCeolin; got it
13:01:20 <JeniT> JeniT has joined #csvw
13:01:39 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
13:01:41 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be CSVW
13:01:41 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see DATA_CSVWG()8:00AM already started
13:01:42 <trackbot> Meeting: CSV on the Web Working Group Teleconference
13:01:42 <trackbot> Date: 05 March 2014
13:02:03 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
13:03:28 <jumbrich> jumbrich has joined #csvw
13:03:36 <Zakim> +yakovsh
13:04:03 <JeniT> Chair: Jeni
13:04:12 <JeniT> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/2013/csvw/wiki/Meeting_Agenda_2014-03-05
13:04:26 <yakovsh> yakovsh has joined #csvw
13:05:48 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose JeniT
13:06:00 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose ivan
13:06:22 <ivan> scribe: ivan
13:06:26 <ivan> scribenick: ivan
13:06:42 <ivan> JeniT: approve previous meeting minutes?
13:06:43 <ivan> ...
13:06:44 <ivan> ...
13:06:48 <ivan> (no comment...)
13:07:03 <ivan> RESOLVED: previous meeting minutes approved
13:07:50 <Zakim> +??P6
13:07:54 <ivan> DavideCeolin: on the use cases, 5 uc were assigned to me
13:07:59 <jumbrich> zakim, ??P6 is me
13:08:00 <Zakim> +jumbrich; got it
13:08:03 <ivan> ... jeremy already set up the requiremenets
13:08:11 <ivan> ... I am not sure they are really part of the others
13:08:38 <ivan> JeniT: it would be useful to know whether there were any issues to be discussed?
13:08:45 <ivan> DavideCeolin: one was abouve provenance
13:08:50 <ivan> ... but this was discussed
13:09:07 <ivan> ... but it has changed a bit
13:09:16 <ivan> ... everyhthing related to annotation is linked to this
13:09:29 <ivan> ... the possibility to map elements to URIs
13:09:33 <jumbrich> zakim, mute me
13:09:33 <Zakim> jumbrich should now be muted
13:09:42 <ivan> ... in some spreadsheets tehre are codes, and it would be useful to link them to URIs
13:09:52 <ivan> ... I pointed that out as a separate requirements
13:09:58 <ivan> ... not sure whether this is covered by others
13:10:06 <ivan> JeniT: I agree that is a requirement
13:10:14 <ivan> ... probably is not elsewhere noted
13:10:38 <ivan> DavideCeolin: is it covered by the external definition resource?
13:10:51 <ivan> JeniT: keep it separate for now, and we will be able to come back to this later
13:11:03 <ivan> DavideCeolin: there is also requirement on unit of measure
13:11:14 <ivan> ... partially covered by the semantic requiremements
13:11:24 <ivan> ... but i still kept it separated for now
13:11:55 <ivan> JeniT: you mean that the semantic type might cover some part of the measure unit?
13:12:09 <ivan> DavideCeolin: I am not an expert on that, I am not sure what the best way to cover this
13:12:27 <ivan> JeniT: this may be a choice of the publisher wehther this is something to go into the semantic part
13:12:53 <ivan> JeniT: thanks for that, it is really good
13:12:53 <ivan> ... our UC document is coming together
13:12:53 <ivan> ... anybody have any issues/questions?
13:12:54 <ivan> ...
13:12:55 <ivan> ...
13:12:58 <ivan> (no comments)
13:13:12 <JeniT> http://w3c.github.io/csvw/syntax/
13:13:13 <ivan> Topic: syntax document
13:13:33 <ivan> JeniT: following on last call I have took the tabular data specification into the spec
13:14:09 <ivan> ... in the data model we said every column has a name, now we say every column has an index
13:14:21 <ivan> ... the name of the column is part of the annotation, ie, the annotated data model
13:14:25 <JeniT> http://w3c.github.io/csvw/syntax/#annotated-model
13:14:51 <ivan> JeniT: the annotated model talks about the different types of annotations (tables, column level, etc)
13:14:58 <ivan> ... these are the changes I made
13:15:11 <ivan> JeniT: the first problem is issue 1
13:15:22 <fresco> q+
13:15:22 <ivan> ... is the order of rows significant in a table?
13:15:28 <JeniT> ack fresco
13:15:40 <yakovsh> q+
13:15:48 <stasinos> q+
13:16:17 <ivan> fresco: in the case you are using several table in the same place then it may be a problem
13:16:31 <ivan> JeniT: in our model we have now one table only
13:16:32 <JeniT> ack yakovsh
13:16:49 <ivan> yakovsh: if we follow the spreadsheet model the row order is specifically significant
13:16:56 <JeniT> ack stasinos
13:16:57 <ivan> JeniT: agreed
13:17:16 <fresco> good point that references to individual cells rely on the row and column order being maintained
13:17:24 <ivan> stasinos: one of the ways we are discussing is an ID which then has the properties of a fields in a row
13:17:33 <yakovsh> q+
13:17:41 <ivan> ... we can then make the requirement for that to represent a strict order
13:17:45 <JeniT> ack yakovsh
13:18:05 <ivan> yakovsh: rfc 7111 have a row and a column level reference
13:18:14 <stasinos> zakim, mute me
13:18:14 <Zakim> stasinos should now be muted
13:18:28 <yakovsh> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7111
13:18:38 <ivan> JeniT: any reason not to have it significant?
13:18:44 <ivan> (no reaction...)
13:18:53 <ivan> ... in that case I will add it in
13:19:12 <ivan> JeniT: next issue: in the annotated data model I have annotating table, column, row, cells
13:19:16 <danbri> danbri has joined #csvw
13:19:17 <ivan> ... I also have annotated regions
13:19:45 <ivan> ... I have a suspicion I put it in because it looked like a useful generalization
13:19:54 <ivan> ... do we really need it, or should I take it out?
13:20:03 <ivan> ... any use case around that?
13:20:05 <stasinos> q+
13:20:09 <JeniT> ack stasinos
13:20:40 <ivan> stasinos: one thing, i remember we were discussing a situation of a cell being, say, the sum of other cells
13:20:47 <ivan> ... in that case there is the notion of a region
13:21:01 <ivan> ... in that case we may want to talk about general regions
13:21:01 <fresco> q+
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13:21:13 <ivan> JeniT: that is interesting because it brings up referencing
13:21:25 <ivan> ... referencing cells in a random manner, in a way
13:21:39 <ivan> ... this is different from the current spec which talks about subtables
13:21:49 <ivan> ... I think that is a useful thing to say
13:22:04 <ivan> q+
13:22:19 <JeniT> ack fresco
13:22:25 <ivan> stasinos: it is hard to tell, without a really use case
13:22:50 <ivan> fresco: referencing should be better as part of a separate specification
13:22:52 <ivan> stasinos: that is reasonable
13:23:05 <Zakim> -jumbrich
13:23:08 <ivan> JeniT: in rfc 7111 we have that notion
13:23:15 <stasinos> zakim, mute me
13:23:15 <Zakim> stasinos should now be muted
13:23:17 <yakovsh> should RFC 7111 be referenced in our documents? I don't see it
13:23:18 <JeniT> ack ivan
13:23:36 <Zakim> +??P6
13:23:47 <jumbrich> zakim, ??P6 is me
13:23:47 <Zakim> +jumbrich; got it
13:23:48 <stasinos> q+
13:23:55 <JeniT> ack stasinos
13:23:59 <fresco> referencing abstract "table" regions (i.e. data parsed from a CSV file) vs referencing parts of a CSV file
13:24:09 <ivan> ivan: do we really want to represent spreadsheet functionalites
13:24:39 <stasinos> zakim, mute me
13:24:39 <Zakim> stasinos should now be muted
13:24:40 <ivan> stasinos: it is not the reproduction of the functionalities, it is just to characterize the raw data itself
13:24:42 <JeniT> q?
13:25:07 <stasinos> to be able to specify which regions have data, and which have derivtives (of any sort)
13:25:24 <fresco> requirement for row headings as well as column headings, to be able to say that a row is a derivative?
13:25:24 <ivan> JeniT: what I will do is to put in a note that we talked about annotation regions, there may some usage, but we can refer this to more use cases
13:25:32 <ivan> ... is that a reasonable way forward
13:25:34 <ivan> +
13:25:36 <ivan> +1
13:25:38 <stasinos> +1
13:25:39 <yakovsh> +1
13:25:41 <DavideCeolin> +1
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13:26:36 <ivan> fresco: the parser can draw up an index, and you can have headers and rows, ie, you may want to specify the nature of rows and columns
13:26:44 <ivan> JeniT: we so have annotated rows and columns
13:27:41 <JeniT> http://w3c.github.io/csvw/syntax/#syntax
13:27:44 <ivan> JeniT: next issue in section 3
13:28:11 <ivan> ... what I have done is to cut it down, it does not talk about how to input tabular data, but only how to output
13:28:22 <ivan> ... that is the best practice of tabular data
13:28:22 <yakovsh> there is an echo
13:28:45 <ivan> ... we are only looking only at the output for best practice
13:29:16 <ivan> ... issue 4 tries to make it as rfc compatible as possible
13:29:25 <yakovsh> q+
13:29:32 <ivan> ... if we use the mime type, that refers to the default and usual character sets
13:29:51 <ivan> ... this issue is that we would like to say that utf-8 is the default
13:29:54 <fresco> q+
13:29:57 <JeniT> ack yakovsh
13:31:20 <ivan> yakovsh: I have discussed with the area directors and it may be possible to amend the draft
13:31:29 <ivan> ...if there are specific suggestions for character sets
13:31:39 <ivan> ... there is also the issue of cr and lf
13:31:48 <ivan> ... i do not know about the default character set
13:32:10 <ivan> ... it is definitely possible to have a default character set if we get a guidance from W3C
13:32:50 <ivan> ... the issue currently says that the content type header must be used to set the character set
13:33:02 <ivan> ... I know that people do not change content type anyway, let alone changing the character set
13:33:12 <ivan> ... so it would be great if utf-8 would be default
13:34:12 <JeniT> Section 4.1.1 of RFC2046 specifies that "The canonical form of any MIME "text" subtype must always represent a line break as a CRLF sequence. Similarly, any occurrence of CRLF in MIME "text" must represent a line break. Use of CR and LF outside of line break sequences is also forbidden."
13:34:36 <yakovsh> q+
13:34:40 <JeniT> ack fresco
13:34:40 <fresco> application/csv sounds like a good idea to me
13:34:43 <ivan> JeniT: if we want to say that it is o.k. to use LF, then we have a problem usint text/csv...
13:35:01 <ivan> fresco: the old spec was ascii but all the parser ignored that
13:35:14 <ivan> ... but the newer parsers fall back on utf8
13:35:26 <ivan> ... ie, the specification could get away to use utf8
13:35:32 <ivan> ... most people ignore the original spec
13:36:05 <ivan> JeniT: according to the rfc we should not call that text/csv, only application/csv
13:36:08 <JeniT> ack yakovsh
13:36:12 <ivan> ... the line ending is quite clear
13:36:26 <ivan> yakovsh: rdf 4180 was passed with the old mime guidelines, but those changed
13:36:34 <ivan> ... it is possible to change that
13:36:43 <ivan> ... i will go back and see what is involved
13:36:49 <ivan> ... i think it can be changes
13:37:03 <ivan> ... question: is there a byte mark if the default in utf8?
13:37:18 <ivan> JeniT: bom is usally optional with utf8
13:37:26 <ivan> ... you do not usually have to use it
13:37:42 <ivan> ... in practice, if you use it, you get horrible characters
13:37:47 <ivan> ... I owuld like to avoid that
13:38:11 <ivan> yakovsh: i will talk to the appl. working group, csv is not only the only one that has this issue
13:38:21 <ivan> ... we will discuss that after the ietf meeting
13:38:52 <Zakim> -jumbrich
13:38:59 <ivan> yakovsh: another question, rfc 4180 is an informational doc, if w3c really wants that ietf could push it through as a fast track
13:39:10 <ivan> JeniT: yes, it would be good to have a standard for csv
13:39:24 <Zakim> +??P6
13:39:27 <ivan> ... there has been other cases where the body has been done by w3c
13:39:34 <jumbrich> zakim, ??P6 is me
13:39:34 <Zakim> +jumbrich; got it
13:39:38 <ivan> ... if we can do this that owuld be great
13:39:40 <ivan> q+
13:39:46 <JeniT> ack ivan
13:40:35 <ivan> ivan: any formal step is necessary from W3C?
13:40:51 <ivan> yakovsh: no, it should be o.k without it
13:40:54 <fresco> parser parameters: https://github.com/hubgit/csvw/wiki/CSV-Parser-Parameters
13:41:03 <ivan> Topic: parsing tabular data
13:41:23 <JeniT> https://github.com/hubgit/csvw/wiki/CSV-Parser-Notes
13:41:32 <ivan> fresco: there are also notes and looking at the different parameters parsers use
13:41:41 <ivan> ... some of the things people have to specify
13:41:56 <ivan> ... there are 2-3 different sections
13:42:03 <ivan> ... character set, discussed
13:43:00 <ivan> ... dialects of the csv file (separators, white space should be trimmed or not, how to select particular bits of the file to be used, ie, what is a comment line, etc)
13:43:23 <ivan> ... there is also a separate set on how to transform data, that may be a separate issue
13:43:39 <ivan> ... lot of csv parsers have these transformation fields in them
13:43:55 <ivan> ... one issue is trimming of white space
13:44:09 <ivan> ... one way is the '\', the unix way
13:44:17 <ivan> ... or the quotes, the excel way
13:44:35 <ivan> ... the quoting is in particularly for output
13:44:55 <ivan> ... that is something to specify to put things in quotes only if there is a special character in the field
13:45:07 <ivan> ... that is basically it...
13:45:16 <yakovsh> q+
13:45:25 <ivan> ... I will clean it up
13:45:27 <JeniT> ack yakovsh
13:45:41 <ivan> yakovsh: is there a list of application that you looked at?
13:45:42 <fresco> https://github.com/hubgit/csvw/wiki/CSV-Parser-Notes
13:46:19 <fresco> pandas
13:46:25 <ivan> fresco: the big one is a python parser, and pandas in python
13:46:46 <ivan> ... pandas has a lot of transformation, has a multi index with several header columns/rows
13:47:01 <ivan> ... it specifies the decimal and thousands separators
13:47:11 <ivan> ... java has a nice one
13:47:29 <ivan> ... the standard one is the php csv parser, but it uses really with the standard case
13:47:38 <JeniT> https://docs.google.com/a/theodi.org/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AiswT8ko8hb4dEtOR0x1WkJ3LS1LSm1HQm1YQzZuSHc&usp=sharing
13:47:52 <JeniT> https://github.com/theodi/csv-validation-research
13:47:58 <ivan> JeniT: have you looked at this one
13:48:00 <ivan> ?
13:48:23 <ivan> fresco: the data package only specifies only a few parameters
13:48:39 <ivan> fresco: there are a few more paramters in common use
13:48:47 <ivan> ... they might become useful
13:49:01 <ivan> JeniT: how to move that into spec space?
13:49:46 <ivan> ... we could have it a standalone spec
13:49:56 <stasinos> +q
13:49:58 <ivan> ... or roll it into the syntax spec as a separate section
13:49:59 <ivan> q+
13:50:25 <ivan> fresco: on the transforamtion side it is interesting whether we would use these
13:50:43 <Zakim> -JeniT
13:50:47 <JeniT> ack stasinos
13:51:39 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
13:52:27 <ivan> fresco: three different types of information like comment and white space whould be part of the syntax
13:52:31 <danbri> danbri has joined #csvw
13:52:51 <ivan> ... the transforamtion may be a seaprate specification
13:52:51 <ivan> ... it leaves us with the region specification
13:53:07 <ivan> JeniT: the region selection should be part of the specification
13:53:50 <ivan> stasinos: the question is how to describe a region is another thing
13:54:03 <ivan> ... the syntax doc should have a best practice part
13:54:22 <JeniT> q?
13:54:26 <ivan> q-
13:54:40 <Zakim> -jumbrich
13:54:49 <ivan> JeniT: my inclanation to roll it into the syntax spec, with a very separate section
13:55:05 <Zakim> +??P6
13:55:09 <stasinos> ... and a much looser, permissive part describing what can be specified
13:55:20 <jumbrich> zakim, ??P6 is me
13:55:20 <Zakim> +jumbrich; got it
13:55:54 <ivan> JeniT: we need a separate to spec to convert to, say, json, what we need here is how to convert that into an abstract model
13:56:00 <ivan> JeniT: AOB?
13:56:07 <stasinos> +q
13:56:27 <JeniT> ack stasinos
13:56:47 <ivan> stasinos: there is a very interesting discussion on the problem of tables transformed into RDF graphs
13:57:07 <ivan> JeniT: we took the decision with dan _not_ to discuss this until we have the UC document out
13:57:21 <ivan> ... then, yes, we will get to it
13:57:39 <ivan> ... but we have to have the basic things done
13:57:53 <Zakim> -JeniT
13:57:54 <Zakim> -fresco_
13:57:57 <Zakim> -ivan
13:57:58 <Zakim> -DavideCeolin
13:57:58 <Zakim> -stasinos
13:58:04 <Zakim> -jumbrich
13:58:08 <Zakim> -yakovsh
13:58:09 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:58:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/03/05-csvw-minutes.html ivan
13:58:10 <Zakim> DATA_CSVWG()8:00AM has ended
13:58:10 <Zakim> Attendees were fresco_, stasinos, ivan, DavideCeolin, JeniT, yakovsh, jumbrich
13:58:20 <ivan> trackbot, end telcon
13:58:20 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
13:58:20 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
13:58:28 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
13:58:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/03/05-csvw-minutes.html trackbot
13:58:29 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
13:58:29 <RRSAgent> I see no action items