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16:49:23 <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
16:49:24 <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 11 minutes
16:49:29 <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
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16:56:47 <Zakim> +plinss
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16:57:11 <Zakim> +??P9
16:57:14 <glazou> Zakim, ??P9 is me
16:57:14 <Zakim> +glazou; got it
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16:57:50 <Zakim> +dael
16:58:11 <Zakim> +??P5
16:58:18 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
16:58:20 <abinader> Zakim, ??P5 is me
16:58:20 <Zakim> +abinader; got it
16:58:31 <MaRakow> Zakim, [Microsoft] is me
16:58:31 <Zakim> +MaRakow; got it
16:58:58 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:59:02 <Zakim> +dauwhe
16:59:43 <Zakim> +Oliver_Goldman
17:00:03 <Zakim> +??P21
17:00:06 <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??P21 is me
17:00:06 <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
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17:00:15 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
17:00:20 <sgalineau> Zakim, Oliver_Goldman is me
17:00:20 <Zakim> +sgalineau; got it
17:00:34 <Zakim> +krit
17:01:08 <Zakim> +hober
17:01:15 <dwim> I'm on the phone
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17:02:10 <Zakim> +rhauck
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17:02:19 <Zakim> + +1.425.463.aaaa
17:02:29 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
17:02:37 <Zakim> +smfr
17:02:39 <florian> Zakim, [IPcaller.a] has me
17:02:39 <Zakim> +florian; got it
17:02:43 <Zakim> +Stearns
17:02:53 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
17:03:11 <Zakim> +??P33
17:03:13 <Zakim> +fantasai
17:04:01 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
17:04:10 <gregwhitworth> Zakim, [Microsoft] has me
17:04:10 <Zakim> +gregwhitworth; got it
17:04:28 <dael> ScribeNick: dael
17:04:30 <Zakim> +??P37
17:04:37 <Zakim> + +1.303.674.aabb
17:04:42 <antonp> Zakim, ??P37 is me
17:04:42 <Zakim> +antonp; got it
17:04:44 <glenn> zakim, aabb is me
17:04:44 <Zakim> +glenn; got it
17:05:00 <dael> plinss: Let's get started
17:05:04 <dael> ...: Any additions?
17:05:15 <dael> Topic: Multiple Mask Layers and mask-composite
17:05:32 <dael> krit: In the past we had multi layers for mask as we do for background
17:05:42 <dael> ...: We couldn't agree how to compoite/combine them
17:05:52 <dael> ...: I sent a prop. to add a new prop. mask-composite
17:06:02 <dael> ...: This allows to def. different compositing operators.
17:06:11 <dael> ..: Each effects current and one below, similar to background
17:06:22 <krit> http://dirkschulze.github.io/specs/css-masking-1/#the-mask-composite
17:06:24 <dael> ...: I created a draft, but haven't pub b/c I would like to hear from WG
17:06:45 <dael> ...: Webkit and blink already impl prefixed and there's some examples out there.
17:06:58 <dael> ...: My keywords are the same as HTML and composite operator prop.
17:07:07 <dael> ...: I think it's a good way to combine different layers.
17:07:20 <dael> ???: You said old Webkit had this function?
17:07:23 <dael> ...: I don't remember that
17:07:24 <sylvaing_> sylvaing_ has joined #css
17:07:32 <plinss> s/???/smfr/
17:07:33 <dael> krit: Mask-compisute was impl as I speced this
17:07:51 <dael> ...: I jsut added two more that are in webkit to be more similar to HTML.  HAs the same 13, or it will have.
17:08:13 <dael> krit: Does anyone have concerns adding this to masking lvl 1?
17:08:31 <Zakim> +BradK
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17:08:43 <dael> smfr: To specific concerns.  I'm worried we're doing this before bordered.  I think we could get in trouble with applying things to composite operator
17:08:54 <dael> ...: This is adding comp. operator to masking and we have one to backgrounds.
17:09:15 <dael> krit: We don't have right now.  There's a difference between compositing and blend.  We jsut have bled for background
17:09:27 <dael> smfr: I'm just surprised this is getting hired priority then other things.
17:09:40 <dael> krit: I'd like to have this in other places, but this isn't the topic for right now.
17:09:49 <dael> ???: Why are we putting this in lvl 1?
17:09:56 <Zakim> +Bert
17:09:59 <dael> krit: Without this we can't define different masking layers.
17:10:05 <Zakim> +dbaron
17:10:09 <dael> ...: It makes sense to support this spec and impl wise.
17:10:21 <dael> ...: We see it in webkit already.  It makes a lot of sense to have it.
17:10:49 <dael> ???: So it's basically a nice feature, but we don't have data to make a stronger statement then that.
17:11:03 <dael> krit: You mean it's nice to have multi. layers or jsut compositing?
17:11:05 <plinss> s/???/rossen/
17:11:23 <dael> rossen: I'm just trying to find out why we're adding it back in.  I don't have anotehr agenda.
17:11:44 <dael> krit: I think it makes sense to align with background.  I got comments to my personal e-mail to support multi layers.
17:11:56 <dael> ...: It jsut makes sense since background supports and there's lots of similarity
17:12:07 <dael> rossen: Is it worth persuing alignment
17:12:17 <dael> krit: I think that's helpful to the author to have it similar.
17:12:33 <dael> rossen: Is there reason to support the similarity between background and masking?
17:12:36 <dael> krit: it's nice.
17:12:53 <dael> rossen: I'd rather have one concept for two features, not similar for two.
17:13:15 <dael> krit: The thing to do would be to support compositing on background.  I'd like to have that conversation, but I think that's seperate from masking
17:13:19 <jrossi> jrossi has joined #css
17:13:31 <dael> rossen: If we can get to a solution with one concept for both features, I think it's worth having the discussion.
17:13:47 <dael> ...: Otherwise, we're just making a masking-only decision and ignoring the compat.
17:14:00 <dael> krit: I'm fine to have that discussion, but I think maybe on ML first.
17:14:08 <dael> krit: Or should we do it on the call?
17:14:17 <dael> rossen: Yeah, ML first would be great
17:14:20 <dael> krit: That's fine.
17:14:23 <dael> rossen: Thanks.
17:14:28 <BradK>  I think for level one, lower layers should just mask upper layers, without any special keywords.
17:14:40 <dael> plinss: One question.  Purpose of multi-image is to composite to one layer for one element.
17:14:51 <dael> krit: Yes.  You combine all mask layers to one and then apply.
17:15:11 <dael> rossen: It's a type of flattening, right?  A similar concept applies to 3D masking too?
17:15:32 <dael> krit: I'll bring this back to the ML and we'll add background and borders as part of the discussion.
17:15:52 <dael> plinss: To clairfy, primary usecase is complex mask using simplier images.
17:15:54 <dael> krit: yes.
17:16:02 <dael> plinss: OK.  We'll take this to ML.
17:16:06 <dael> plinss: ANything else?
17:16:09 <dael> krit: no
17:16:16 <dael> Topic: CSS Shapes to CR
17:16:34 <dael> astearns: When I made the req. there was one LC comment, but in last hour we had comments from howcome.
17:16:42 <BradK> fantasai: Sorry, I'm in and out. I just wanted to stick the comment in there, and it can be discussed on the mailing list.
17:16:42 <Zakim> - +1.425.463.aaaa
17:16:48 <dael> ...: WE can take some time on call to discuss and decide how to address if that's okay
17:16:56 <dael> group: Yes.
17:17:10 <astearns> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Mar/0103.html
17:17:13 <dael> astearns: First is at (url from astearns)
17:17:28 <dael> ...: It's questioning if basic shapes should be defined in CSS
17:17:59 <dael> ...: He said shape in HTML should be defined there.  I disagree.  WE define the basic shape function as a way to define how the shape displays and how it interacts with layouts
17:18:16 <dael> ...: I don't know if I should say this comment is out of scope or rejected, but I don't think we should make a change.
17:18:20 <dael> fantasai: I agree.
17:18:23 <dael> plinss: I do too.
17:18:31 <dael> rossen: I would vote to reject.
17:18:41 <dael> plinss: The shape is the presentation.  I say reject
17:18:50 <dael> astearns: can we get a resolution?
17:19:01 <dael> RESOLVED: Reject the 1st comment.
17:19:08 <dael> astearns: 2nd is about empty div
17:19:26 <dael> ...: My sug. was to use before and after pseudo, but the after doesn't have the right positioning.
17:19:41 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
17:19:50 <dael> astearns: I think we can change ex without empty divs without having to exit LC
17:19:53 <dael> fantasai: I agree
17:20:03 <dael> rossen: Or you can putt he shape inside the div and call it a day.
17:20:18 <dael> astearns: What I was thinking was the ex illistration shows a triangle with isn't in markup or CSS.
17:20:33 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
17:20:42 <dael> ...: It's contrived already and I'm going to to find a simple left/right mirror with triangular characteristic to make it a better ex.
17:20:58 <dael> astearns: That was just informational.  I don't need a res on that
17:21:01 <dwim> Zakim:  [IPcaller] is me
17:21:09 <dael> ...: Last one is about using luminants of an image to def a shape.
17:21:22 <dael> ...: It's a fine thing to add, I've been arguing we should defer to level 2.
17:21:29 <dael> ...: Does anyone think it has to be def. now?
17:21:31 <sylvaing_> zakim, who is noisy
17:21:31 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is noisy', sylvaing_
17:21:35 <sylvaing_> zakim, who is noisy?
17:21:38 <plinss> zakim, who is making noise?
17:21:46 <Zakim> sylvaing_, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: smfr (30%), Stearns (54%), fantasai (24%)
17:21:57 <Zakim> plinss, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: abinader (9%), smfr (66%), Stearns (4%)
17:22:08 <dael> SimonSapin: That sounds similar to luminants for masking and I'm wondering if there should be a more generic way to say this is good for masking and shapes
17:22:18 <sylvaing_> s/SimonSapin/smfr
17:22:19 <dael> astearns: At the moment masking has a luminant switch, right?
17:22:22 <dael> krit: Yes.
17:22:37 <dael> fantasai: It's a sep property.  Perhaps it's a sep. image instead
17:22:52 <dael> astearns: I was thinking a keyword to use luminants from the image instead of alpha-mask
17:22:59 <dael> fantasai: Maybe in the image special prop?
17:23:09 <BradK> s/luminants/luminance?
17:23:16 <dael> astearns: That's true.  Or perhaps the image function itself could have an alpha or luminatn switch
17:23:19 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
17:23:32 <fantasai> s/image special prop/shape-image-threshold/
17:23:32 <dael> ...: But then when you use it it will display a luminance mask?
17:23:56 <dael> astearns: In any case, I'd still like to defer this.  I'd like to impl and iterate without waiting for the perfect solution.
17:24:03 <dael> ...: I think we can add this later.
17:24:13 <dael> plinss: I like the idea of diff image functions.
17:24:27 <dael> ...: That way you can do something like set the shape based on level of red
17:24:38 <dael> fantasai: Then you wouldn't use an image function.
17:24:51 <dael> astearns: Unless you decide what pixals you're pulling out.
17:25:00 <dael> fantasai: Unless you use something in background??
17:25:14 <fantasai> fantasai: An image function has to return an image, that you can use in background-image
17:25:18 <dael> ???: Then that's defined in images and this is defered?
17:25:41 <dael> astearns: One thing that's useful is you can take an image and display the different levels differently which would allow more interesting applications
17:25:58 <dael> plinss: We're building a primative so we can use it anywhere.  So it doesn't belong per-say here.
17:26:07 <fantasai> s/per-say/per-se/
17:26:20 <dael> ...: That said there might be use in being able to switch between alpha and luminance, but I think we can get there when we get there.
17:26:24 <dael> ...: Other thoughts?
17:26:33 <dael> ...: So the prop is defer that for a future level?
17:26:42 <dael> fantasai: I think it's interesting that masking has it and shapes doesn't
17:26:51 <dael> ...: We prob. want to use the same approach for both
17:27:01 <BradK> +1 for it being an image function to define what channel/luminance is used for alpha
17:27:03 <dael> krit: The first question is do we want it in lvl one, or defer to 2?
17:27:10 <dael> ...: That's the first thing we should answer
17:27:23 <dael> fantasai: It doesn't matter to me.  I wonder about it being in 1 for masking, but not shapes
17:27:30 <dael> ...: Not that we should necessarily add it to shapes
17:27:46 <dael> astearns: I think we should make sure that what we add in the future to shapes should be sim. to masking now
17:28:02 <dael> ...: If we decide to have a sep switch from the image, I think it's easy to add that to shapes as a keyword
17:28:16 <dael> ...: Masking has a sep prop.  Using hte same keywords is enought o keep similar.
17:28:27 <dael> ...: So masking has a property and shapes uses the same keyword
17:28:39 <dael> plinss: And would the default be alpha, luminance, or auto?
17:28:44 <dael> ...: masking default is auto
17:29:01 <dael> krit: It's just a new keyword.  For masking we needed to use auto for backward compat.
17:29:07 <dael> ...: It's different for shapes.
17:29:31 <dael> krit: I think it's an example that mask ?? has alpha and luminance, not auto
17:29:52 <dael> plinss: In my head, auto useful would be if there isn't an alpha, but I don't know if that makes sense from usage
17:30:06 <dael> ...: Currently if you use an image without alpha, it's just opaque
17:30:19 <dael> krit: These are examples we would need to figure out.
17:30:35 <dael> astearns: To your q. if there isn't an alpha, there's esentially not effect.
17:30:57 <dael> plinss: If we have a luminance threshold, we'll need one for alpha.  You may want the white or black to be ignored.
17:31:00 <smfr> lumunance(invert(url(foo.png))
17:31:13 <smfr> ^luminance()
17:31:15 <dael> astearns: That may be better served later.  It may be too complicated for a simple keyword
17:31:23 <dael> plinss: So the q is do we add this now or later?
17:31:38 <dael> plinss: I don't think I hear anyone saying now except fantasai for consistancy with masking
17:31:56 <dael> smfr: I think it's fine to defer, but I'd like more consistant in the future
17:32:10 <dael> fantasai: I don't feel very strongly, it was just a concern
17:32:13 <dael> astearns: Okay
17:32:26 <dael> plinss: What I'm hearing is defer to level 2, but when we do it keep it consistant
17:32:59 <BradK> image(url(whatever.tif) alpha-from(luminance))
17:33:02 <dael> astearns: I have a note in lvl 2 about lumenance, and I'll add a note saying we want to be consistant with masking and that we want to be able to select various because I like that idea
17:33:13 <dael> RESOLVED: Defer luminance to lvl 2
17:33:18 <dael> plinss: Anything else?
17:33:27 <dael> astearns: That's it exept punctuation.
17:33:44 <dael> ...: So I need to find and fix that example and run it past howcome to make sure the ex works for him
17:33:53 <dael> ...: I'll hopefully ask for CR transition next week
17:33:55 <dael> plinss: Ok
17:34:08 <dael> Topic: Relaxing <custom-ident> restictions
17:34:20 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
17:34:24 <dael> SimonSapin: In the spec we have a custom-ident that's defined with identifiers
17:34:39 <dael> ...: There's a restriction that these itesm cannot have the same name as keywords in same prop.
17:34:49 <dael> ...: In some cases that would cause parsing ambiguity.
17:35:02 <dael> ...: There are other cases where that wouldn't happen, but they're still restricted.
17:35:19 <dael> ...: I'd like to prop that we only restrict keywords on the same level
17:35:34 <dael> fantasai: Can we jsut say that we don't allow ambigous keywords?
17:35:45 <dael> SimonSapin: It depends on how you define ambigous
17:35:53 <dael> fantasai: Parsing-wise ambiguous.
17:36:07 <dael> SimonSapin: We can say that, but I don't know how to tell people to figure that out.
17:36:18 <dael> fantasai: We can make a list for impl so they don't have to figure it out
17:36:31 <dael> SimonSapin: So when there's custom-ident we list exactly what's excluded?
17:36:42 <dael> fantasai: Yes.  It's fairly strightforward, but you have to think about it
17:36:48 <dael> ...: It would be convenient to list them
17:37:12 <dael> ...: Will we run into this again when the custom thing only comes after this keyword, but you can use anything there and no one will parse it wrong.
17:37:23 <dael> ...: It's not just paranthesis that cause issues
17:37:31 <dael> SimonSapin: I'm in favor of removing any restrictions we can
17:37:48 <dael> fantasai: Let's make it ambigous vs not ambigous and suggest that specs make an explicit list
17:37:58 <dael> ...: Some kinds of formulation of what would be excluded.
17:38:25 <dael> ...: So an example would be that they have something really complex and just say all the keywords in the prop are excluded instead of listing one by one
17:38:26 <Rossen_f2f> Rossen_f2f has joined #css
17:38:28 <dael> SimonSapin: That works for me
17:38:32 <dael> plinss: Any other things?
17:38:37 <dael> s/things/thoughs
17:39:25 <dael> RESOLVED: customer-ident is restirced only in cases where actually ambigous parcing-wise.  Specs referencing it should be clear about what is excluded
17:39:44 <SimonSapin> s/parcing/parsing/
17:39:54 <Zakim> -??P33
17:39:56 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.aa]
17:39:57 <dael> dbaron: One concern is there are cases where you have a list and it's only abmigous on the first, but we want itemst o be tab concistant
17:40:00 <hober> s/customer/custom/
17:40:14 <dael> ...: I wouldn't like us to change restirctions so that you have have it as the second value, but not the first
17:40:21 <dbaron> s/have it/have inherit/
17:40:22 <Rossen_> Rossen_ has joined #css
17:40:26 <dbaron> ... in a comma-separated list
17:40:32 <glazou> russian television ?
17:40:33 <Rossen_> zakim, microsoft has me
17:40:33 <Zakim> +Rossen_; got it
17:40:53 <plinss> zakim, who is making noise?
17:40:54 <dael> zakim, who is noisy
17:40:54 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is noisy', dael
17:41:04 <Zakim> plinss, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: abinader (30%), plinss (4%), fantasai (9%)
17:41:23 <dael> plinss: I agree with dbaron, we don't want that behaviour
17:41:27 <Rossen_> zakim, who is noisy
17:41:27 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is noisy', Rossen_
17:41:29 <smfr> Zakim: mute abinader
17:41:49 <glazou> abinader is not a slavic language speaker so can't be him...
17:41:52 <dael> fantasai: I think a way to handle that is the position...I guess if you have a type and it's repeated or movable the repition doesn't effect what's exlucded
17:42:06 <abinader> my voip app is on mute
17:42:16 <dael> plinss: dbaron are you happy with that phrasing?
17:42:25 <dael> dbaron: I guess so.
17:42:27 <dbaron> Zakim, mute [IPcaller.a]
17:42:27 <Zakim> [IPcaller.a] should now be muted
17:42:39 <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
17:42:40 <dbaron> Zakim, unmute [IPcaller.a]
17:42:40 <Zakim> [IPcaller.a] should no longer be muted
17:42:50 <Zakim> glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [Microsoft.aa] (34%), abinader (42%)
17:43:16 <dael> plinss: I think we can move on for now
17:43:28 <dael> Topic: CSS 2 draft
17:43:36 <abinader> glazou: weird indeed
17:43:42 <dael> plinss: I was hoping plh would be here, but do we have replies from everyone?
17:43:53 <dael> plinss: Can we merge now, or do we need to wait?
17:44:12 <dael> florian: The conversion is ready, we need aprroval
17:44:26 <dael> plinss: Every message plh sent, I saw a reply from
17:44:36 <dael> plinss: Except fantasai and I assume you're not obj.
17:44:38 <dael> fantasai: No
17:44:45 <dael> plinss: So we should go ahead and merge it
17:44:52 <dael> florian: So I should do it now?
17:44:56 <dael> plinss: Yes.
17:45:00 <SimonSapin> s/florian/SimonSapin/
17:45:05 <dael> plinss: One thing I forgot to ask
17:45:23 <dael> plinss: The ?? WG wants to check the status on break
17:45:33 <dael> ???: What did they want to check?
17:45:49 <dael> plinss: They have a usecase on TTML? and they want to pub
17:45:58 <dael> ...: The goal is to not block them
17:46:13 <dael> fantasai: We should have frag in CR, but the end of the year.  Rossen_ do you want to chat after the call?
17:46:16 <dael> Rossen_: Yes
17:46:21 <dael> fantasai: We'll figure it out.
17:46:38 <dael> Rossen_: I think we have half a dozen or so on the ML with some editorial requests.
17:46:59 <dael> ...: I don't think we have any technical issues left.  I agree we should be good for CR by the end of the year.
17:47:06 <dael> ...: Maybe LC before the next F2F?
17:47:12 <dael> fantasai: That would be great.
17:47:16 <dael> Rossen_: I think they should be okay
17:47:23 <dael> plinss: I'll send that feedback then.
17:47:26 <dael> plinss: Anything else?
17:47:50 <dael> simonsapin: We have a public CSS2 ED, can we link to it on the current work?
17:47:55 <dael> fantasai: Yes, I can do that
17:48:16 <dael> fantasai: On the masking spec there were keywords added during F2F, fill and stroke, to choose what box to reference.
17:48:26 <dael> ...: These two are inconstatance b/c they don't end in box.
17:48:46 <dael> ...: It's not the fill boundry or anything you're selecting, it's actually a bounding box you're selecting.
17:48:59 <dael> ...: I think they should end in box for consitancy and because that's what the reprsent.
17:49:30 <dael> SimonSapin: I just sent on www-style.  we discussed at F2F and people wanted to add new keywords instead of adding box.
17:49:43 <dael> fantasai: I understand the concern, but it's becoming a usability issue
17:50:02 <dael> ...: b/c everything else in the set uses box, it's not helpful to anybody that these don't.
17:50:45 <dael> fantasai: I'd be okay if we wannted to change -box to -somethingelse everywhere if we want to do that.  We'll take the hit on aliasing background-clip.  That's better.
17:51:09 <dael> ...: Doing these and new and we didn't want to use box because we don't like the term box, that's not great in terms of spec wording
17:51:35 <dael> ...: In this case this is a keyword the authors have to use and our arguements about what is/isn't a box doesn't matter to authors and they have to deal with this all the time
17:51:52 <dael> plinss: That makes sense to me.  It makes more sense to see them as object-box and stroke-box
17:52:01 <dael> fantasai: We're not even using fill and stroke as concepts
17:52:16 <dael> ...: We're boxifying this wierd shape and that's not clear for the keyword
17:52:36 <dael> krit: Whatever we come up with I was the discuss with SVG b/c they wanted just fill and stroke
17:52:52 <dael> plinss: We need to have them part of this discussion, but I think fantasai's proposal makes a lot of sense
17:53:03 <dael> plinss: As a follow, why is it no-clip instead of none
17:53:14 <dael> fantasai: The shorthand becomes ambigous with image
17:53:26 <dael> plinss: Ah.  krit can you take this to SVG?
17:53:41 <dael> krit: Can we resolve that CSS wants to have it and action me to do it?\
17:53:47 <dael> plinss: OKay,  Any obj?
17:54:15 <dael> RESOLVED: Change keywords to be fill-box and stroke-box
17:54:30 <dael> ACTION krit Take this resolution to SVG
17:54:30 <trackbot> Created ACTION-620 - Take this resolution to svg [on Dirk Schulze - due 2014-03-12].
17:54:36 <dael> plinss: Anything else?
17:54:50 <dael> fantasai: I was wondering why CSS keywords compute to fill-box
17:55:01 <dael> ...: It seems like borderbox should compute to fill box
17:55:21 <dael> krit: The main reason is they SVG group didn't want to use all the box names b/c stroke isn't the same as border.
17:55:26 <SimonSapin> plinss, http://dev.w3.org/csswg seems stuck in January
17:55:45 <dael> ...: At the F2F we came up with the idea that we have different keywords for HTML and SVG in case the user comes up with a difference
17:56:05 <dael> ...: If that's not clear from the spec we need to rephrase
17:56:19 <dael> fantasai: It's clear.  I'm just curious why we didn't want to come upw ith something more intellengent.
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17:56:34 <dael> krit: It was denyed.  Mostly from SVG WG memebrs, but some CSS
17:56:45 <dael> fantasai: I'd liek to udnerstand the reasoning, but we can do that later.
17:56:50 <Zakim> -hober
17:56:50 <dael> plinss: You can take that offline?
17:56:53 <dael> fantasai: Yes.
17:56:59 <dael> plinss: I think that's it for this week.
17:57:14 <dael> glazou: How many people at the WG will be at SXSW?
17:57:22 <dael> glazou: No one bt plinss?  Wonderful.
17:57:27 <Zakim> -dbaron
17:57:28 <Zakim> -sgalineau
17:57:30 <Zakim> -smfr
17:57:30 <dael> plinss: SOunds like we can have the call next week.
17:57:34 <Zakim> -glazou
17:57:35 <Zakim> -dauwhe
17:57:35 <Zakim> -glenn
17:57:35 <dael> plinss: Thanks everyone.
17:57:36 <Zakim> -abinader
17:57:36 <Zakim> -rhauck
17:57:37 <Zakim> -krit
17:57:38 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
17:57:39 <Zakim> -Stearns
17:57:39 <Zakim> -koji
17:57:41 <Zakim> -antonp
17:57:42 <Zakim> -plinss
17:57:42 <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
17:57:44 <Zakim> -MaRakow
17:57:45 <Zakim> -Bert
17:57:48 <Zakim> -SimonSapin
17:57:51 <Zakim> -dael
17:57:55 <Zakim> -[IPcaller.a]
17:58:04 <Zakim> -BradK
17:58:12 <BradK> BradK has left #css
18:04:50 <SimonSapin> fantasai, the ED should show up at http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css2/ once dev.w3.org gets unstuck
18:06:23 <Zakim> -[Microsoft.aa]
18:06:24 <Zakim> -fantasai
18:06:26 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
18:06:26 <Zakim> Attendees were plinss, glazou, dael, abinader, MaRakow, [IPcaller], dauwhe, SimonSapin, sgalineau, krit, hober, rhauck, koji, +1.425.463.aaaa, smfr, florian, Stearns, fantasai,
18:06:26 <Zakim> ... gregwhitworth, +1.303.674.aabb, antonp, glenn, BradK, Bert, dbaron, [Microsoft], Rossen_
18:07:28 <smfr> smfr has left #css
18:08:40 <Ms2ger> SimonSapin, hear hear
18:08:52 <Ms2ger> Let's party like it's 2008
18:09:15 <fantasai> SimonSapin: checked in
18:09:21 <fantasai> might take a minute or two to show up
18:14:47 <SimonSapin> fantasai: seems related to dev.w3.org moving to a new host
18:15:38 <SimonSapin> plinss: should we just use http://drafts.csswg.org for EDs? http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20140305#l-713
18:16:18 <plinss> SimonSapin: we can, but it's good to have them in w3.org space
18:16:38 <plinss> I'm working on just getting dev.w3.org/csswg to just proxy drafts.csswg.org
18:18:30 <SimonSapin> plinss: please talk to MikeSmith
18:18:40 <plinss> yep, that's the plan
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18:20:41 <fantasai> SimonSapin: Is that why Writing Modes is showing some really old data?
18:20:51 <SimonSapin> fantasai: yes
18:21:15 <fantasai> um
18:21:20 <fantasai> and how long is this going on for?
18:21:28 <SimonSapin> http://128.30.54.131/csswg/ is the old host
18:21:59 <fantasai> That draft of Writing Modes is more than 3 weeks old
18:22:00 <SimonSapin> right now the synchronisation is still going to the old host, and Mike would rather not deal with it
18:22:27 <fantasai> any ETA on getting this fixed?
18:22:56 <fantasai> because if that's more than "today/tomorrow", I'm going to request sysreq set up a temporary redirect to the old host
18:22:56 <SimonSapin> plinss: apparently you can make the change yourself in http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/csswg/.htaccess?rev=1.21
18:24:32 <plinss> SimonSapin: not sure if I have access to that CVS repo
18:24:33 <SimonSapin> Well, enough of me doing the parrot between two IRC channels. Talk to each other.
18:24:54 <fantasai> plinss: you probably do. If not, I do
18:25:32 <plinss> fantasai: ok, I'll give it a try
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18:36:12 <plinss> fantasai: it's not letting me login
18:36:37 <fantasai> okay
18:36:42 <fantasai> paste me the code
18:36:58 <fantasai> hopefully my computer remembers how to log me in
18:37:00 <plinss> thought maybe I'm not using the right cvsroot?
18:37:42 <plinss> should just need to change:
18:37:43 <plinss> RewriteRule ^(.*)$  http://w3c-test.org:83/csswg/$1 [P,L]
18:37:43 <fantasai> My computer says
18:37:45 <plinss> to:
18:37:45 <fantasai> export CVSROOT=fantasai@dev.w3.org:/sources/public; export CVS_RSH=ssh;
18:38:01 <plinss> RewriteRule ^(.*)$  http://drafts.csswg.org/$1 [P,L]
18:38:56 <TabAtkins> fantasai: What am I getting poked for?
18:39:09 <fantasai> TabAtkins: scheduling
18:39:20 <fantasai> TabAtkins: Did you want me to come down tomorrow
18:39:35 <TabAtkins> Like I said, I've got an interview tomorrow right in the middle of the afternoon.
18:39:38 <TabAtkins> How's Friday for you?
18:40:13 <fantasai> TabAtkins: That doesn't answer the question :) I could still come down, and we'd be interrupted
18:40:34 <fantasai> I think I'm free Friday
18:40:45 <fantasai> but not 100% sure this second
18:40:54 <TabAtkins> Okay.
18:41:04 <fantasai> You have a preference for Friday?
18:41:05 <TabAtkins> I'd lose at least 45 minutes on Thursday, which is frustrating.
18:41:06 <TabAtkins> Yeah.
18:41:20 <fantasai> I could catch an earlier bus :p
18:41:57 <TabAtkins> But then I'd have to get to work earlier. ^_^
18:42:15 <fantasai> heh
18:48:29 <fantasai> plinss: http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/csswg/.htaccess.diff?r1=1.22;r2=1.23
18:48:41 <astearns> hmm - getting the right html file from http://dev.w3.org/csswg now, but none of the images are loading
18:48:52 <fantasai> YAY IT WORKS
18:48:56 <fantasai> ok, mostly
18:49:03 <astearns> or stylesheets
18:50:01 <fantasai> I think plinss needs to figure that one out
18:50:08 <plinss> looking
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18:50:31 <fantasai> Seems to be a problem on drafts.csswg.org
18:50:32 <fantasai> http://drafts.csswg.org/css-writing-modes/
18:50:35 <fantasai> is also broken
18:51:12 <plinss> ah, that's probably a different issue, working on it
18:51:29 <fantasai> TabAtkins: I've a preference for Thursdays, in general, because MV days tend to get me home fairly late. Bbut if it's a problem I can do Friday
18:52:10 <fantasai> TabAtkins: It should be fairly easy to kill 45 minutes by assigning me to do some follow-up editing
18:52:18 <fantasai> TabAtkins: You're still interrupted though
18:56:31 <TabAtkins> I'd really prefer Friday this week.
18:56:37 <TabAtkins> Alternately: we do early and late next week.
18:57:27 <astearns> plinss: I see a file listing for http://drafts.csswg.org/css-shapes/images/
18:57:45 <astearns> but clicking any of the images gives a not found page
18:57:58 <plinss> working on it, it's an issue in the black magic realm of RewriteRules
19:02:56 <plinss> astearns: on another note, I just saw your change adding the images to the example in shapes, does the transform apply to the shape?
19:10:34 <fantasai> TabAtkins: Ok
19:10:50 <fantasai> TabAtkins: Can't do early next week
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19:18:07 <SimonSapin> fantasai: yay, http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css2/ works
19:20:40 <Ms2ger> krit, you should tell plinss about your issue
19:22:49 <krit> Ms2ger: I think it is still Mike who is taking care of the FXTF repository, plinss is that correct?
19:23:48 <plinss> krit: mostly, what's the issue?
19:24:27 <SimonSapin> fantasai: should we announce it?
19:27:02 <krit> 8:17 PM <krit_> MikeSmith: the link to CSS Compositing is broken http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/compositing-1/
19:27:02 <krit> 8:17 PM <krit_> MikeSmith: gives me {"error": {"message": "", "code": 404}}
19:27:08 <krit> plinss: --^
19:28:14 <plinss> kirt: ok, yeah, the dev.w3.org/fxtf is broken. I'm working on setting up my own at drafts.fxtf.org, then we'll have dev.w3.org/fxtf proxy that
19:28:34 <plinss> like we just did for dev.w3.org/csswg
19:28:45 <krit> plinss: ok, thanks!
20:01:16 <fantasai> SimonSapin: Sure
20:01:26 <fantasai> SimonSapin: once plinss fixes things?
20:01:47 <fantasai> SimonSapin: Make sure images load
20:01:58 <fantasai> SimonSapin: Thanks so much for working on that!!!!!!!!!!!!
20:02:05 <plinss> fantasai: should be working now
20:02:39 <Zakim> Zakim has left #css
20:02:47 <SimonSapin> fantasai: looks fine http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css2/images/pixel1.png
20:03:44 <SimonSapin> yeah, the conversion was a bit crazy: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/bin/css2-cvs2hg
20:03:54 <SimonSapin> manually patching broken CVS files and stuff
20:04:04 <plh> plh has joined #css
20:55:15 <plinss> fantasai: can you set up the proxy for dev.w3.org/fxtf too?
20:55:43 <plinss> you should be able to copy the same .htaccess just change drafts.csswg.org to drafts.fxtf.org
20:56:29 <plinss> (there's probably something for FXTF too, not sure if that's a RewriteRule or another directory)
20:59:09 <SimonSapin> "As Daniel Glazman would have one believe with his stories of confrontation at the table and smoky-backroom negotiations in the hallways back during the Netscape-Microsoft browser wars, [...]"
20:59:28 <SimonSapin> http://fantasai.inkedblade.net/weblog/2007/css-wg-q-and-a/ is a nice (re-)read
21:02:19 <astearns> fantasai: issuegen.pl needs to add a <meta charset=utf-8"> to the output to keep Håkon's name from being mangled
21:02:40 <TabAtkins> astearns: Use Bikeshed's built-in issues-list function.
21:02:48 <TabAtkins> (A port of fantasai's perl script.)
21:03:08 <astearns> ok, I'll look that up the next time I have to :)
21:03:25 <TabAtkins> bikeshed issues-list filenamehere.txt
21:03:33 <TabAtkins> outputs to filenamehere.html
21:03:45 <TabAtkins> Undocumented so far, sorry. :/
21:03:50 <TabAtkins> Let me go work on documentation real quick.
21:05:21 <astearns> would it work with api.csswg.org?
21:07:07 <TabAtkins> Hm, there's no way currently to access it, but bug plinss.
21:08:00 <plinss> TabAtkins, astearns: what's the issue? do you need to submit another file?
21:08:17 <TabAtkins> Need some way to access the issues-list function instead of the spec function.
21:09:09 <TabAtkins> (Unfortunately, the automatic name-mangling wont' work through the API, since you have to specify where to output the file to.)
21:09:17 <plinss> ah, ok, so just a cmd line switch?
21:09:25 <TabAtkins> yeah
21:09:28 <plinss> can do
21:09:40 <TabAtkins> bikeshed issues-list [input] [output]
21:09:55 <TabAtkins> Hm, need to check if I support stdin/stdout for that.
21:10:07 <TabAtkins> Yes, I do.
21:10:27 <plinss> I'll try to add that this afternoon
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22:03:25 <fantasai> astearns: dev.w3.org should be sending UTF-8 charset headers
22:03:41 <fantasai> astearns: do you need it locally?
22:03:49 <fantasai> plinss: Updated .htaccess
22:04:20 <fantasai> astearns: if it's an fxtf draft, maybe need to copy parts of csswg/.htaccess
22:04:33 <fantasai> astearns: we have AddDefaultCharset UTF-8
22:05:33 <fantasai> astearns: maybe fxtf/.htaccess needs to add it
22:06:41 <plinss> fantasai: Cool. Thanks. Can you take a look at FXTF too? dev.w3.org/FXTF/ is still 404
22:07:21 <plinss> astearns: I think you probably need to add a .htaccess to the root of the fxtf repo
22:32:19 <SimonSapin> all of our specs have a public ED now, right?
22:34:21 <TabAtkins> I think so, yeah.
22:34:32 <TabAtkins> Fonts' source isn't public, but the generated file is.
22:34:57 <SimonSapin> should we fix that?
22:35:17 <SimonSapin> given that John is not actively editing
22:35:38 <TabAtkins> I think so, yeah.
22:36:31 <astearns> fantasai: ah, this was just me looking at the local copy
22:39:17 <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: if we care about the change history I can do another CVS conversion, given the "*,v" files
22:39:33 <TabAtkins> Yes, history would be useful to preserve.
22:47:16 <SimonSapin> fantasai: do you have access to those files?
22:50:31 <fantasai> SimonSapin: which files?
22:50:38 <SimonSapin> css-fonts
22:50:44 <fantasai> where are they?
22:50:49 <SimonSapin> I don’t know :)
22:51:00 <SimonSapin> somewhere in some CVS repo
22:51:03 <fantasai> I think jdaggett told me at one point, but I don't remember the answer :/
22:51:23 <SimonSapin> should I ping him before publishing this?
22:52:49 <fantasai> publishing what?
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22:53:51 <SimonSapin> css-fonts source files
22:55:22 <fantasai> where are they?
22:56:01 <fantasai> I don't think the ones in the CSSWG internal repository would be that interesting
22:56:10 <fantasai> they look old
22:56:46 <fantasai> I think pretty much everything in the draft is new since it was moved public
22:56:59 <fantasai> well, everything intersting
23:09:53 <SimonSapin> fantasai: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/file/tip/css-fonts only has generated files. The source files are… somewhere
23:10:11 <SimonSapin> something about running Bert’s preprocessor locally, without network access
23:10:40 <TabAtkins> Pretty sure John is the only person in the WG to have ever gotten Bert's preprocessor running locally.
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23:37:03 <SimonSapin> fantasai, TabAtkins: how does this look? https://pastebin.mozilla.org/4483660
23:37:52 <TabAtkins> I like it, but drop the "Hi". ^_^
23:38:23 <SimonSapin> habits
23:38:53 <fantasai> SimonSapin: I would drop the statement about other drafts
23:38:57 <fantasai> just keep it focused on CSS2
23:39:11 <SimonSapin> fantasai: both of them?
23:39:31 <fantasai> delete the parenthetical
23:39:51 <fantasai> Add also a sentence about how CSS2.1 will be the *least* up-to-date of all the CSS specs on /TR
23:40:14 <SimonSapin> what do you mean?
23:40:14 <fantasai> because updating it on /TR is exceptionally slow
23:40:25 <fantasai> For most of the other drafts we have, we do try to push updates on a regular basis
23:40:30 <fantasai> as edits are made
23:40:43 <fantasai> they get chunked
23:40:45 <fantasai> but they get up there
23:40:55 <fantasai> if a draft is out of date by a year from the ED
23:40:59 <fantasai> that's unusual and should be fixed
23:41:08 <fantasai> but for CSS2.1, because of all the overhead for updating it
23:41:15 <fantasai> it's going to be years out of date most of the time
23:42:03 <TabAtkins> ...that would be why his parenthetical reccommends looking that the ED.
23:42:16 <fantasai> and that won't be something we'll fix just by somone noticing and saying "oh, hey, shouldn't we publish an updated draft of this next week"
23:42:27 <fantasai> TabAtkins: Yeah, but the comments are pretty general to all drafts. This one is way way way worse
23:42:31 <fantasai> than all other drafts we have
23:42:55 <fantasai> Like, i18nwg can keep up with CSS just by checking over our WD publications
23:43:06 <fantasai> because they're frequent enough to be useful at the frequency that they need to keep up with it
23:43:10 <fantasai> but that's not going to be true for 2.1
23:43:33 <fantasai> (if they're interested in the edits that would go there, probably not, since they'll be mostly box model fixes...)
23:43:38 <SimonSapin> fantasai: wanna suggest some phrasing? :)
23:44:00 <fantasai> uh
23:44:38 <fantasai> "Unlike other CSS drafts, which are published to /TR periodically, CSS2.1 is unlikely to be updated on /TR for a very long time." ?
23:45:37 <fantasai> and then s/this reason/these reasons/ in the next sentence
23:47:00 <SimonSapin> https://pastebin.mozilla.org/4483751
23:48:58 <SimonSapin> fantasai: ^
23:56:40 <fantasai> s/a snapshot/the snapshot/
23:57:01 <fantasai> s/may want to/should/ ?
23:57:14 <fantasai> s/may want to/probably want to/ ?
23:58:09 <fantasai> well, the Process-related part, not the publication-related part
23:58:14 <fantasai> which plh is supposedly solving
23:58:28 <SimonSapin> oops, too late
23:58:35 <SimonSapin> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Mar/0118.html
23:59:22 <fantasai> Ok, now post to the blog!
23:59:27 <fantasai> you can fix those things in the blog post :]