16:00:01 RRSAgent has joined #pointerevents 16:00:01 logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/03/04-pointerevents-irc 16:00:10 jrossi2 has joined #pointerevents 16:00:13 +rbyers 16:00:29 ScribeNick: ArtB 16:00:29 Scribe: Art 16:00:29 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0138.html 16:00:29 Chair: Art 16:00:29 Meeting: Pointer Events WG Voice Conference 16:00:34 +[Microsoft] 16:00:36 +Patrick 16:00:48 Zakim, who's making noise? 16:00:59 jrossi2, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Art_Barstow (35%), Patrick (14%) 16:01:17 Zakim, Microsoft is jrossi 16:01:17 +jrossi; got it 16:01:23 oh, interesting zakim functionality there 16:01:23 Regrets: Sangwhan_Moon, Olli_Pettay 16:02:09 Present: Art_Barstow, Patrick_Lauke, Rick_Byers, Jacob_Rossi 16:02:58 +[Microsoft] 16:03:10 Present+ Asir_Vedamuthu 16:03:25 asir has joined #pointerevents 16:03:28 Topic: Tweak agenda 16:03:37 AB: I posted a draft agenda yesterday http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0138.html. 16:03:40 AB: since then there has been a lot of bug activity. My inclination is to allocate some time for all of the bugs as a way to get "last chance" feedback. However, Bugs 24706 and 24777 were Resolved/Fixed via patches based on agreements made during our Feb 25 call so I propose we drop those two bug from the call. 16:04:11 AB: any objections to dropping Bug 24706 and Bug 24777? 16:04:18 +Matt_Brubeck 16:04:30 Present+ Matt_Brubeck 16:04:49 AB: yesterday Olli said Anne is still OOO so we won't discuss his comments at this call. 16:05:07 AB: any other change requests? 16:05:24 RB: can we move manipulation topic earlier today 16:05:32 ok with me 16:05:38 AB: that's finewith me 16:05:59 Topic: Add 'manipulation' touch-action property? 16:06:06 AB: this Issue/Q was raised by Rick on Feb 25 and he proposed some new text http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0125.html. There was some followup by Patrick and Jacob. 16:06:20 RB: IE has these additions 16:06:54 … think we need to rethink what we want to spec 16:07:06 … need something about click delay 16:07:16 +Cathy 16:07:19 … I proposed some wording that fits within the scope of the group (charter) 16:07:26 … this would help with compat 16:07:31 Present+ Cathy_Chan 16:07:40 +1 that click delay 300ms is a big pain point, and anything that can help alleviate it in a standardised way is a good thing 16:07:51 RB: extra impl burden I think is smallish 16:07:52 removes special magic that UAs (particularly on mobile) do today 16:07:58 MB: I agree with Rick 16:08:02 … this is a good thing to add 16:08:17 … there are some impl-specific semantics 16:08:46 I like the proposal from Rick's mail that we spec it as "pan-x pan-y" plus (optional) implementation-specifiied behaviors. 16:08:51 JR: I replied to this thread; think this is valuable 16:08:58 … describe continuous zooming 16:09:12 I'm fine with specifying "continuous zooming" too. 16:09:13 … ok provided it doesn't hold up the spec 16:09:18 … well understood property 16:09:39 RB: you'd like some info from Mozilla re impl? 16:09:54 JR: yes, that would be good and what Matt said is sufficient 16:10:00 +Scott_Gonzalez 16:10:16 … think we have enuf support to add this 16:10:32 MB: need to double-check with Olli but we circulated this to Moz people 16:10:40 … I don't think we'll get any objections 16:11:10 scottgonzalez has joined #pointerevents 16:11:18 AV: what do you expect Chrome to support 16:11:32 According to proposed definition of manipulation, it would be valid (and compatible) to implement it identically to 'auto' 16:11:35 … (directed to Rick) 16:11:47 RB: we are near branch point for Chrome 35 16:12:15 … if we get manipulation into ED I can get it in impl in time for Chrome 35 16:12:28 … need to get it into the spec 16:12:33 JR: I can add this today 16:12:36 RB: great 16:13:05 RESOLUTION: we will add manipulation to the touch-action property 16:13:22 ACTION: Jacob add manipulation to the touch-action property 16:13:22 Created ACTION-86 - Add manipulation to the touch-action property [on Jacob Rossi - due 2014-03-11]. 16:13:41 Topic: Bug 21749 : Setting a capture on an offshore element 16:13:49 AB: This was created 2013-Apr-04 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21749 on behalf of Francois Remy. We discussed this during our 2014-Jan-07 call http://www.w3.org/2014/01/07-pointerevents-minutes.html#item02 and Jacob has Action-57 to make a proposal https://www.w3.org/2012/pointerevents/track/actions/57. 16:14:10 AB: Jacob, what's the status of this? 16:14:39 Cathy has joined #pointerevents 16:14:44 JR: I still need to make a proposal; it's in my queue 16:15:03 … will get to it shortly 16:15:19 Topic: Bug 21951: [CR] pointermove dispatching when button state changes 16:15:28 AB: Jacob Resolved/Fixed this bug on Feb 28 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21951 via patch https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/pointerevents/rev/a9862eea23f5 per the resolution on 2014-Jan-07 http://www.w3.org/2014/01/07-pointerevents-minutes.html#item03. 16:15:49 AB: We'll talk about Asir's related e-mail about this bug separately, but first, are there any objections to Jacob's patch? 16:16:28 SG: looks good to me 16:16:31 looks good to me 16:16:31 RB: good to me 16:16:54 Present+ Scott_González 16:17:05 RESOLUTION: Jacob's fix for Bug 21951 is OK. 16:17:10 AB: Asir proposed in https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21951#c2 test assertions 5.4 and 5.5 be deleted since they "cannot be tested using the current test harness and cannot be run manually" https://www.w3.org/wiki/PointerEvents/TestAssertions#Test_Assertions_for_pointermove_events. 16:18:08 AV: as we review assertions and test coverage, we discovered these two cannot be tested 16:18:16 Cathy_ has joined #pointerevents 16:18:27 RB: not sure why 5.4 can't be tested 16:18:42 … can't change button state w/o changing the pointer 16:18:55 JR: yes, I think you are correct Rick 16:19:02 … a manual test here would be hard 16:19:28 … There is a discussion by the WebDriver group about this general problem 16:19:51 RB: yeah even if had a test, there is no API to check 16:20:58 AB: does anyone object to strking 5.4 and 5.5? 16:21:06 SG: we could move them to another section 16:21:28 … so if/when WebDriver can handle these cases, we could consider creating tests 16:21:43 "Awaiting harness improvements (or WebDriver)" 16:21:50 … if we strike them, should add a note 16:21:58 AV: we could add them to v2 list 16:22:13 AB: so do both strike and add to v2 list 16:22:22 no objection 16:22:35 AB: anyone object to striking these plus adding these to v2 list? 16:22:40 [ None ] 16:23:12 JR: would be good for people in this group to provide input for WebDriver 16:23:20 … so they can handle our type of requirements 16:23:44 … we have John Jansen 16:23:49 RB: any one from Google? 16:24:03 https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webdriver/raw-file/default/webdriver-spec.html 16:24:03 JR: this is the Browser Testing WG 16:25:08 CC: what about 5.6 and 5.7? 16:25:22 … does the same reasoning apply to these two assertions? 16:25:53 RB: yes, they are the same 16:26:04 AB: any different thoughts? 16:26:05 SG: no 16:26:23 AB: so we want to strike all 4 assertions? 16:26:27 AV: yes 16:26:34 AB: thanks Cathy 16:26:54 RESOLUTION: strike test assertions 5.{4,5,6,7} and add them to the v2 list 16:27:13 ACTION: asir strike test assertions 5.{4,5,6,7} and add them to the v2 list 16:27:14 Created ACTION-87 - Strike test assertions 5.{4,5,6,7} and add them to the v2 list [on Asir Vedamuthu - due 2014-03-11]. 16:27:26 Topic: Bug 24346: Clarifications on Pointer Events Types section 16:27:31 AB: Jacob Resolved/Fixed Bug 24346 on Feb 25 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24346 as discussed on Feb 25 http://www.w3.org/2014/02/25-pointerevents-minutes.html#item09. 16:27:46 AB: Since then Patrick submitted some comments via the [["List of Pointer Events" table default actions]] thread; see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0132.html 16:28:26 PL: think table still needs a clarification 16:28:45 MB: the table lists the action that will be prevented if call preventDefault 16:28:57 See Step 3 in: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/pointerevents/raw-file/tip/pointerEvents.html#mapping-for-devices-that-support-hover 16:28:59 … if call it on pointerdown all compat mouse events will be prevented 16:29:12 … there are some mouse events that aren't prevent-able 16:29:38 PL: perhaps the header of table 16:30:09 MB: could add a link to the text and section for canceling 16:30:15 JR: I can change the table headings 16:30:27 … think I just used headings from other DOM specs 16:30:36 … could add a defn and have the header link to that 16:31:17 PL: need to what happens when event is canceled 16:31:36 JR: [ reads part of the spec … ] 16:31:45 … could add a defn for defaultAction 16:31:54 "cancelled eventAn event whose default action was prevented by means of preventDefault(), returning false in an event handler, or other means as defined by [DOM-LEVEL-3-EVENTS] and [HTML5]." 16:32:20 MB: there's a diff between default action and defaultAction 16:32:31 so currently, table column "Default Action". Text in the column is "Varies: when the pointer is primary, all default actions of the mousedown event plus firing of compatibility mouse events". How about just adding a bit of text 16:32:58 AutomatedTester has joined #pointerevents 16:33:40 AB: Patrick can you take this info and create a proposal? 16:34:04 PL: [ makes a proposal … ] 16:34:12 … I can do some wordsmithing 16:34:37 ACTION: Patrick make a proposal for Bug 24346 (using discussion from 2014-Mar-04 call) 16:34:37 Created ACTION-88 - Make a proposal for bug 24346 (using discussion from 2014-mar-04 call) [on Patrick Lauke - due 2014-03-11]. 16:34:41 thx 16:34:57 Topic: Bug 24772: releasePointerCapture() should fail if called from a node that doesn't currently capture the pointer 16:35:05 AB: Jacob proposed text in the bug via comment #1 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24772#c1 as actioned on Feb 25 http://www.w3.org/2014/02/25-pointerevents-minutes.html#item05. 16:35:18 AB: any objections to Jacob's proposal? 16:35:37 AB: looked ok to me 16:35:49 RB: sounds good 16:35:57 SG: so noop, no error? 16:35:58 JR: yes 16:36:22 RESOLUTION: group agrees with Jacob's proposal for Bug 24772 16:36:29 ACTION: Jacob submit changeset for his proposed text for Bug 24772 16:36:29 Created ACTION-89 - Submit changeset for his proposed text for bug 24772 [on Jacob Rossi - due 2014-03-11]. 16:36:51 Topic: Bug 24783: non-normative examples for event sequences to be added to end of 11.2 16:36:57 AB: after the draft agenda was posted, Jacob Resolved/Fixed https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24783 via patch https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/pointerevents/rev/0fc30a2b5dfe and then Patrick had some followup. 16:37:18 AB: We'll discuss Patrick's editorial followup in a minute but first, any objections to Jacob's patch? 16:37:49 JR: this is verbatim from what Patrick proposed 16:38:09 PL: yes; the two minor comments are editorial nits 16:38:25 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0148.html 16:38:25 JR: oh, yes, I'll make those two changes 16:38:43 AB: any objections to the patch + the 2 editorial nits? 16:38:49 RB: LGTM 16:38:52 PL: +1 16:39:31 oops 16:39:40 RB: why are pointerenter and pointerleave not in the list? 16:39:45 JR: that's an oversight 16:40:07 AB: any objections to adding pointerenter and pointerleave? 16:40:12 [ None ] 16:40:25 hah mbrubeck 16:40:41 save that for the touch events CG 16:40:42 RESOLUTION: group agrees with Jacob's patch for Bug 24783 + add pointerenter and pointerleave + add PL's two editorial nits 16:41:15 ACTION: Jacob update the spec for bug 24783 including discussion from 2014-Mar-04 16:41:15 Created ACTION-90 - Update the spec for bug 24783 including discussion from 2014-mar-04 [on Jacob Rossi - due 2014-03-11]. 16:41:27 Topic: Bug 24784: ACTION-69: Create a proposal re informative note re pointerevent and touchevent compatibility 16:41:28 not unlike my 100s of tests, rick http://patrickhlauke.github.io/touch/ 16:41:41 AB: this bug had some additional activity yesterday between Patrick and Jacob https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24784. 16:41:48 AB: I think what we want here is a relatively terse statement. Jacob's proposal https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24784#c1 meets that but I'd say Patrick's  counter-proposal https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24784#c3 meets the ICanLiveWithItTest. 16:42:10 JR: yes 16:42:36 AB: any objections to adding PL's proposed text for 24784? 16:42:46 RB: fine with me 16:43:03 i'll follow up at later point to add my thoughts to the touch events CG wiki 16:43:05 RESOLUTION: group agrees with PL's proposed text for bug 24784 16:43:23 ACTION: Jacob update the spec for bug 24784 per PL's proposal 16:43:23 Created ACTION-91 - Update the spec for bug 24784 per pl's proposal [on Jacob Rossi - due 2014-03-11]. 16:43:36 Topic: Bug 24786: Propose a non-normative note re the keyboard compat issue 16:43:47 AB: Patrick has done quite a bit of research and added several comments to this bug and so far no one else has added any comments https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24786. 16:43:56 AB: we discussed this on Feb 25 and the group was actioned to add their feedback to the bug http://www.w3.org/2014/02/25-pointerevents-minutes.html#item11. 16:44:07 AB: seems like we need a clear proposal we can review and comment #5 might have such a proposal https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24786#c5. 16:44:41 mind that the first part of https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24786#c5 is mainly for interest 16:44:48 RB: I don't have an objection if UAs implement something like this 16:45:05 … but need to separate that from designing things into the platform 16:45:08 shepazutu has joined #pointerevents 16:45:20 … want the compatibility hacks at higher lever e.g. frameworks 16:45:28 ...or user agent behavior 16:45:37 … don't want "surprising" behavior included in the platform 16:45:59 i actually agree with rick here 16:46:13 … PL's proposal is good but need to separate that from platform requirements 16:46:30 PL: agree with you Rick 16:46:52 … think the end of comment #5 is the important part we want to capture 16:47:15 … some more text is needed 16:48:07 [ Scribe didn't capture comments from Rick … ] 16:48:34 PL: should I use this feedback to create a new proposal? 16:48:40 AB: sounds good 16:49:04 ACTION: Patrick make a specific proposal for Bug 24786 per discussion on 2014-Mar-04 16:49:04 Created ACTION-92 - Make a specific proposal for bug 24786 per discussion on 2014-mar-04 [on Patrick Lauke - due 2014-03-11]. 16:49:21 my main point was to emphasize using high-level APIs (focus, blur, click, etc.) wherever possible. When you must use low-level input events, be sure to support ALL types of input devices, including keyboards. 16:49:21 PL: might want to block for feedback from Sangwhan 16:49:32 … since one of his actions is related 16:49:35 https://www.w3.org/2012/pointerevents/track/actions/63 16:49:43 … Action-63 16:49:47 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0140.html 16:50:07 PL: the Q is whether Action-63 is covered by my proposal 16:50:11 RB: yes, I think so 16:50:58 AB: how about after you make your proposal Patrick, we make sure Sangwhan is given a headsup and then address action-63 accordingly? 16:51:04 PL: sounds good 16:51:17 Topic: Bug 24894: Tweaks to 5.1.2 The Primary Pointer 16:51:25 AB: after the draft agenda was posted, Jacob Resolved/Fixed https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24894 via Jacob's patch https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/pointerevents/rev/b168701f0522. 16:51:34 LGTM 16:51:37 AB: this was discussed on Feb 25 as "Slight softening of language in the note for 5.1.2" http://www.w3.org/2014/02/25-pointerevents-minutes.html#item08. 16:51:47 AB: any objections to this patch? 16:51:53 PL: LGTM 16:52:07 RB: LGTM 16:52:10 AB: +1 16:52:18 :) 16:52:19 RESOLUTION: group agrees with Jacob's patch for Bug 24894. 16:52:33 right, shooting off. thanks everybody 16:52:38 Topic: Testing status 16:52:43 AB: any new testing news (beyond Feb 25 http://www.w3.org/2014/02/25-pointerevents-minutes.html#item12)? 16:53:48 Topic: CR implementation updates 16:53:52 AB: any new implementation news (beyond Feb 25 http://www.w3.org/2014/02/25-pointerevents-minutes.html#item13)? 16:53:54 It is now possible to enable touch-action and pointer events in nightly builds of Firefox for Windows 8 Metro. 16:54:10 AB: awesome! 16:54:12 Very cool!! 16:54:27 MB: portions of that also work on some other platforms 16:55:00 Pointer Events (but not touch-action) can also be enabled in Firefox for desktop, and (I think) Firefox OS. 16:55:16 Woot! 16:55:43 RB: we are continuing to land touch-action patches 16:55:51 … still on track for Chrome 35 16:55:59 Topic: AoB 16:56:03 AB: Any other Business for today? 16:56:09 AB: I might have a conflict with this time on March 11 so a call that day is currently not likely 16:56:29 AB: down to 4 bugs + Annes comments 16:56:41 AB: anything else? 16:56:49 AB: meeting adjourned 16:56:52 -[Microsoft] 16:56:54 -rbyers 16:56:57 -Art_Barstow 16:56:58 -jrossi 16:57:01 -Scott_Gonzalez 16:57:03 -Cathy 16:57:07 -Matt_Brubeck 16:58:04 RRSAgent, make minutes 16:58:04 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/03/04-pointerevents-minutes.html ArtB 16:58:11 RRSAgent, make log Public 16:58:17 RRSAgent, make minutes 16:58:17 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/03/04-pointerevents-minutes.html ArtB 17:01:03 jrossi has left #pointerevents 17:02:50 AutomatedTester has joined #pointerevents 17:05:54 zakim, bye 17:05:54 leaving. As of this point the attendees were Art_Barstow, rbyers, Patrick, jrossi, [Microsoft], Matt_Brubeck, Cathy, Scott_Gonzalez 17:05:54 Zakim has left #pointerevents 17:05:59 rrsagent, bye 17:05:59 I see 7 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2014/03/04-pointerevents-actions.rdf : 17:05:59 ACTION: Jacob add manipulation to the touch-action property [1] 17:05:59 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/03/04-pointerevents-irc#T16-13-22 17:05:59 ACTION: asir strike test assertions 5.{4,5,6,7} and add them to the v2 list [2] 17:05:59 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/03/04-pointerevents-irc#T16-27-13 17:05:59 ACTION: Patrick make a proposal for Bug 24346 (using discussion from 2014-Mar-04 call) [3] 17:05:59 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/03/04-pointerevents-irc#T16-34-37 17:05:59 ACTION: Jacob submit changeset for his proposed text for Bug 24772 [4] 17:05:59 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/03/04-pointerevents-irc#T16-36-29 17:05:59 ACTION: Jacob update the spec for bug 24783 including discussion from 2014-Mar-04 [5] 17:05:59 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/03/04-pointerevents-irc#T16-41-15 17:05:59 ACTION: Jacob update the spec for bug 24784 per PL's proposal [6] 17:05:59 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/03/04-pointerevents-irc#T16-43-23 17:05:59 ACTION: Patrick make a specific proposal for Bug 24786 per discussion on 2014-Mar-04 [7] 17:05:59 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/03/04-pointerevents-irc#T16-49-04