20:57:15 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #webfonts
20:57:15 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/02/26-webfonts-irc
20:57:17 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
20:57:17 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #webfonts
20:57:19 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 3668
20:57:19 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see IA_Fonts()4:00PM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
20:57:20 <trackbot> Meeting: WebFonts Working Group Teleconference
20:57:20 <trackbot> Date: 26 February 2014
20:59:06 <jfkthame> jfkthame has joined #webfonts
20:59:36 <sergeym_> sergeym_ has joined #webfonts
20:59:43 <jfkthame> hi guys - sorry, i'm not able to call in today, but will lurk on irc
20:59:49 <Zakim> IA_Fonts()4:00PM has now started
20:59:56 <Zakim> +Vlad
21:00:00 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #webfonts
21:00:14 <ChrisL> rrsagent, here
21:00:14 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2014/02/26-webfonts-irc#T21-00-14
21:00:21 <Zakim> +[Google]
21:00:26 <raph> raph has joined #webfonts
21:01:29 <Zakim> +??P6
21:02:05 <kuettel> kuettel has joined #webfonts
21:02:07 <ChrisL> zakim, ??p6 is me
21:02:07 <Zakim> +ChrisL; got it
21:02:21 <Zakim> +AWK
21:02:27 <sergeym__> sergeym__ has joined #webfonts
21:02:55 <cslye> cslye has joined #webfonts
21:03:50 <Zakim> + +1.650.214.aaaa
21:04:21 <ChrisL> zakim, aaaa is Google
21:04:21 <Zakim> +Google; got it
21:04:39 <ChrisL> zakim, google holds kenji and david
21:04:39 <Zakim> +kenji, david; got it
21:04:49 <ChrisL> scribenick ChrisL
21:04:55 <ChrisL> scribenick: ChrisL
21:06:16 <ChrisL> zakim, list attendees
21:06:16 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Vlad, [Google], ChrisL, AWK, +1.650.214.aaaa, kenji, david
21:06:55 <ChrisL> topic: TTC
21:07:10 <sergeym__> Note, there is actually only one sergeym on IRC
21:07:46 <ChrisL> cslye: (recap of discussions from email) collections are a real part of font formats and working to make that easier for developers
21:07:58 <ChrisL> ... agree its hard to apply to webfonts today
21:08:25 <ChrisL> ... concern that if it misses the boat are we missing an opportunity, making TTC harder to use
21:08:43 <ChrisL> ... want to see TTC support eventually, if not now
21:09:38 <ChrisL> Vlad: We are talking about a delivery format. does not imply any rendering requirement, just to transport it as needed
21:10:02 <ChrisL> ... being unable to deliver a certain class certainly stops it being used
21:10:15 <ChrisL> ... being able to allows it to be supported sooner or later
21:10:41 <ChrisL> ... want to avoid cutting something out needlessly. Orthogonal to rendering of TTC
21:11:16 <ChrisL> raph: (also recapping email)
21:11:45 <ChrisL> ... have not been focussed on whether todays user agents can render TTC/OTC more theoretical assumption
21:12:25 <ChrisL> ... TTC/OTC deliver functionality, but is there a better way for example unicode-range and multiple pieces that can be recombined
21:13:21 <ChrisL> ... also, looking at css3 fonts, it does not mandate or exclude TTC but does give a fragment syntax that would work with it
21:14:01 <ChrisL> ... agree with cslye that this is the opportunity to lay the groundwork. still prefer simplification and want to explore that
21:14:55 <ChrisL> ... do the use cases overlap the web at all. last week in retrospect i was a bit narrow, need to also consider epub as well for example
21:15:22 <jfkthame> the use case for TTC might be more interesting if we had an extension to @font-face that would allow an author to directly specify multiple faces from within a single resource
21:15:26 <ChrisL> cslye: happy to help with that, ask Ken Lunde for example or David Lemon
21:16:33 <ChrisL> raph: wanted to describe my email proposal, summed up ideas from last week, more streamlined way
21:16:47 <ChrisL> ... to reconstruct an OTC font.
21:17:37 <ChrisL> raph: instead of dealing directly with offsets like sfnt, that we reference the tables by an index number which is the same object except it can contain duplicates with the same tagg
21:17:52 <ChrisL> .. consider wether to explicitly disallow in the single font case
21:18:40 <ChrisL> ... in the collection case you do have multiples, index counting from zero, reconstruct by lists of indices from the combined block
21:19:05 <ChrisL> ... similar to original but with less security implications compared to direct offsets
21:19:31 <ChrisL> ... can reconstruct a TTC or extract one font from a container
21:20:05 <ChrisL> raph: no additional concern about offset in a compressed or transformed data block
21:20:18 <ChrisL> ... for a single font its clear what to throw away
21:21:07 <ChrisL> raph: so overall a better proposal. still worth discussing wether to standardize or not, but more comfortable with it now
21:21:55 <ChrisL> kuettel: glyph and loca would be paired. what about CFF?
21:22:23 <ChrisL> raph: bothare subject to trandsform, but not for CFF which is not much preprocessed
21:22:34 <ChrisL> ... so no corresponding rule for CFF table
21:22:38 <ChrisL> kuettel: ok
21:23:05 <ChrisL> kuettel: nice thing about it is that if it is not a collection there are no changes to the wire format
21:23:35 <ChrisL> ... good to get more data. could buy us some time and then over te next months gather more use cases for collections
21:23:49 <ChrisL> ... as we have to date, all based on hard data
21:23:56 <ChrisL> (general agreement)
21:24:11 <ChrisL> Vlad: like the recent proposal for the reasons mentioned
21:24:24 <ChrisL> ... low impact
21:24:39 <ChrisL> ... little additional complexity
21:25:22 <ChrisL> ... wanted to gauge efficiency
21:25:57 <ChrisL> ... not clear the use cases could be quantified
21:26:33 <ChrisL> ... one reason to support is for web-related or offline apps like epub, where ttc would be more used
21:26:55 <ChrisL> ... also, extra complexity for adding collection support in the transport is minimal
21:27:50 <ChrisL> ... eliminate much bigger problems in the future if there was a call for ttC and the transport does not support it
21:28:22 <ChrisL> kuettel: use cases and html/css propogate outside the web and what we want is font support without broken parts
21:28:37 <ChrisL> zakim, who is speaking?
21:28:48 <Zakim> ChrisL, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [Google] (95%), ChrisL (9%)
21:29:34 <ChrisL> raph: worried about adding something that does not get used. but its a small amount of crufy in the ordering, from before we commited to whole-font compression
21:30:22 <ChrisL> ... but a preference, would be supported with tests, its relatively small so the additional burden is slight
21:30:49 <ChrisL> kuettel: cslye could you ask the webkit folks about this
21:31:03 <raph> typekit folks
21:31:04 <ChrisL> cslye: yes of course, have had casual convesations about it
21:31:20 <ChrisL> s/webkit/typekit/
21:32:04 <ChrisL> Vlad: what could be a resolution from discussions so far? strawpoll?
21:32:09 <jfkthame> should we regard this as a distinct format, based on a common structure? - very much like TTC compared to TTF
21:32:26 <ChrisL> cslye: yes
21:33:08 <Zakim> -Google
21:33:10 <ChrisL> kuettel: (scribe can't hear)
21:33:47 <ChrisL> kuettel: prefer to omit unless strong use case but can be convinced
21:34:06 <Zakim> + +1.650.214.aabb
21:34:15 <raph> zakim, aabb is Google
21:34:15 <Zakim> +Google; got it
21:35:43 <raph> Chrisl: main use case seems to be large Asian fonts in which non-Han characters are in different styles
21:35:46 <KenjiBX> KenjiBX has joined #webfonts
21:36:00 <raph> ... but unicode-range is another existing mechanism for achieving the same effect
21:36:36 <ChrisL> KenjiBX: like raphs proposal as it does not block you, can add it easily
21:36:45 <ChrisL> ... really like this freedom
21:36:55 <ChrisL> ... want to see a use case for the web
21:37:20 <ChrisL> ... usrs might serve too much data
21:37:31 <raph> ChrisL: if we implement this, it will be very important to test
21:37:51 <ChrisL> Vlad: (personal take) like the idea of supporting ttc just to be sure its a complete support
21:38:11 <ChrisL> ... and because it can be done easily with no penalty
21:38:51 <ChrisL> ... dont like being put in a corner, rather than defending the choice to exclude it down the line
21:39:12 <ChrisL> ... epub packages a lot of content so ther eis not the download bottleneck
21:39:38 <jfkthame> i suspect applications like epub might really like it as a packaging option
21:39:47 <ChrisL> ... many apps based on web tech, want woff2 to work there too. prefer it is capable for any OFF
21:39:49 <jfkthame> e.g. if CSS were extended to allow something like https://pastebin.mozilla.org/4404194
21:41:14 <ChrisL> sergey?
21:41:25 <Vlad> sergei, what is your position on the TTC support in WOFF2
21:41:56 <sergeym__> I would support it for completmess, so we dom't need to come back to it later
21:42:14 <ChrisL> (seems like a consensus to me)
21:42:23 <sergeym__> But it should come at the same time as @fomt-face support for it
21:42:31 <ChrisL> kuettel: also good to hear another implementor opinion
21:43:54 <ChrisL> ChrisL: god to put in early even if removed later; patent policy
21:44:18 <ChrisL> KenjiBX: impact on cacheing needs to be examined
21:45:39 <ChrisL> raph: think there is a cacheing benefit. imagine a cjk font for a site. ttc avoids having multi downloads with substantial overlap
21:46:08 <ChrisL> raph: css3 fonts suggests a fragment, jfkthame suggests annding a face index
21:46:23 <ChrisL> ... both use the same base uri so cacheability is improved
21:47:04 <ChrisL> ... over time it becomes more realistic to serve a cjk font
21:47:44 <ChrisL> KenjiBX: concern over collections plus subsets
21:47:50 <ChrisL> raph: same base url
21:48:01 <ChrisL> ... oh, ok, yes
21:48:29 <ChrisL> KenjiBX: end up downloading everything to get one part
21:48:49 <ChrisL> kuettel: relatively small overhead though
21:49:54 <ChrisL> Vlad: consensus is that the spec draft includes raph's proposal, makes it easier to review.
21:50:49 <ChrisL> KenjiBX: so it would not make a change in chrome, will not break current woff2 format
21:50:53 <ChrisL> raph: correct
21:51:03 <ChrisL> ... explicit goal
21:51:31 <ChrisL> Vlad: we are not even ad ED yet
21:51:37 <ChrisL> s/ad/at/
21:52:23 <ChrisL> Vlad: good, much more clarity on this now
21:53:04 <ChrisL> topic: brotli and ietf
21:54:28 <cslye> Anyone here can publish a standards-track document.
21:55:27 <raph> (I have a hard stop at 2 btw)
21:55:36 <cslye> In W3C, you can disclose a patent and provide licensing info later.
21:55:58 <cslye> Within a working group.
21:56:17 <cslye> Disclosing a patent and excluding a patent are different things.
21:56:46 <cslye> ChrisL: Will summarize all this in an email to WG.
21:58:59 <cslye> ChrisL: What is the status of the editor's draft?
21:59:57 <Zakim> -[Google]
22:00:02 <Zakim> -AWK
22:00:02 <ChrisL> (status is not ready to share yet)
22:00:14 <Zakim> -ChrisL
22:00:14 <cslye> cslye has left #webfonts
22:00:18 <ChrisL> zakim, list attendees
22:00:18 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Vlad, [Google], ChrisL, AWK, +1.650.214.aaaa, kenji, david, +1.650.214.aabb, Google
22:00:21 <Zakim> -Vlad
22:00:28 <ChrisL> rrsagent, make logs public
22:00:28 <Zakim> -Google
22:00:29 <Zakim> IA_Fonts()4:00PM has ended
22:00:29 <Zakim> Attendees were Vlad, [Google], ChrisL, AWK, +1.650.214.aaaa, kenji, david, +1.650.214.aabb, Google
22:00:32 <ChrisL> chair: vlad
22:00:39 <ChrisL> rrsagent, make minutes
22:00:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/02/26-webfonts-minutes.html ChrisL
22:01:04 <jfkthame> jfkthame has left #webfonts