Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference -- 25 Feb 2014

<trackbot> Date: 25 February 2014

<Joshue> trackbot, start meeting

<trackbot> Meeting: Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference

<trackbot> Date: 25 February 2014

Misc survey for February 25th, 2014 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20140225/

<AWK> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Scribe_List

<AWK> Zakim aaaa is Wilco

<Ryladog_> scribe:Ryladog

Edits to ARIA10

<Joshue> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/2014/WD-WCAG20-TECHS-20140107/ARIA10

<Joshue> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Revised_Using_aria-labelledby_to_provide_a_text_alternative_for_non-text_content

<David> http://davidmacd.com/test/altstoalts.html

zakim #wai-wcag

<David> when is it?

CSUN Hackathon for AT testing of ARIA

JF: Goals to open it up

I mentioned this last week

<David> i'll be there!

JF: Those with differenterent configurations AT/UA/OS at CSUN is the value, Saturday the March 22

Edits to ARIA10

DM: Copied code for us to test
... Folks can do it during the call
... the first two images are from ARIA10

LGR: Do you think you could put it into two different web pages?

DM: yes I can do this

<Joshue> +q

AWK: We cannot use the video example when you use aria-labelledby, and does with Aria-label

DM: I did not make a comment on the video yet

AWK: What was the result

SP: it works with FF

LGR: I did not make series of techniques. We had a special meeting and I agreed to make an example of when alt in not available

SP: in that example the alt was differenterent than the aria-labelled-by

LGR: if someone

<Joshue> KHT: Because there are other people here with diverse opinions, if this means that we are going to be releasing techniques that say we don't need to use alt then we need to have a longer discussion.

JO: We might want on a parent element, it doesnt meet the
... is this a pattern that we want to support?

<David> ARIA10 EX1 http://davidmacd.com/test/aria10ex1.html

<David> ARIA10EX2 http://davidmacd.com/test/aria10ex2.html

JO: Salesh's comment, when video receives keyboard - double trouble in JAWS 15

<David> Example of four images with alt, aria-label, aria-labelledby, title http://davidmacd.com/test/altstoalts.html

JO: David, I still do not know where the group is
... I am in the same genre as Katie, We need a use case that really ,keen sense

<Joshue> +q to say I think this use of a video element with aria-labelledby by is a valid use case

AWK: There is a bunch of testing since there is a star example. We have a lot of test data from people filling out the form - I do not have the video exapmle. We only know of one configuation where it does work. On mobile it works everywhere
... It works well on every Mac device, work well with NVDA and FF, with JAW and IE. Has strong support for the stars example
... We do not want to have no example. This starts example is a viable example
... We are not making it too expansive either. Developers will say what can I do with this

<David> Youtube search of stars 4 out of 5, http://tinyurl.com/mjpj5a8

AWK: One of the issues is that is very constrained

<Zakim> Loretta, you wanted to say test procedure is missing "no alt" constraint!

<Joshue> +1 to Loretta

LGR: I realize for got to see that it can tale an alt - this is strictly a technique that cannot acceptand aly

<Joshue> KHS: I think thats important Loretta, my question is looking at the test procedure. Why would we leave @alt out of these?

<Joshue> KHS: In some instances where you can't have alt thats fine.

<Joshue> KHS: But tool makers etc need to make tools that support alt, backwards compatability etc.

<Joshue> KHS: I can't see why we would drop this.

<Zakim> Joshue, you wanted to say I think this use of a video element with aria-labelledby by is a valid use case

<AWK> modified Step 1 of the procedure to "Examine each element where the aria-labelledby attribute is present and the element does not support the alt attribute."

JO: I like the use case that is there for the developers view I think that is nice

LGR: We do not know when we will ever be able to document ARIA attribute over ALT

DM: I think there can be some use cases such as background images I think that is what Marc was saying back in Nov for the CSS doscussions - in the instances where ALT cannot be appliked
... The other side of complexity - I think we should require it where alt is available

OJ: Does the video element accept and alt attribute?

LGR: No

JO: OK so it looks like we need this

<David> john what do you think of the video... you have done a lot of work on posters

LGR: We would not document the technique for not using ARIA techniques where ARIA is available. We would soften the failure - if ARIA is suppported.
... What are the constratints or circumstance. We will not docuemnt any techniques in this ound of techniques

JO: If this is going to be too complicated we will pull the ARIA10

<Zakim> JF, you wanted to talk about video issues

SP: Someone said that it worked in JAWS, it did not work is JAWS I just tested it

<Loretta> Summary of the outcome from last Thursdays meeting: we will not document any techniques for using aria attributes in place of or in combination with alt; we will soften the failure enough that for environments that have accessibility support for aria attributes, the failure won't be triggered.

JF: As some may know I was on the Media Task Force, we need a lot of peices of video information from the screen. Have you looked at fig-caption. Do we need a short discription as well as long description
... These are open issues on the task force. We are looking at this - just so you know

<Loretta> This leaves open the issues around using aria attributes on elements that take alt. That discussion can continue, but we won't try to resolve it in the current techniques update.

JO: We really want to get this draft out. I suggest we remove ARIA10 from this iteration. If I was bold I would say go for it, but I am concerned about confusion and accessibility support
... Let us just set this for instances where ALT attributes cannot be accepted

AWK: I made a change in the WIKI version to change line 1 of the procediure - as what loretta agreed to at the last meeting. This is just for where ALT cannot be used

<Jon_Avila> +1

<AWK> +1

<marcjohlic> +1

JO: Welcome James

<Wilco> +1

<Loretta> +1 , what do we also want to remove example 1?

<bbailey> +1

<David> +1 on aria 10 but -1 on f65 changes

<Joshue> +1

JO: Can people agree with this suggestion from AWK

+11

JO: It doent worrk, but it is a nice desgn pattern

AWK: in 6 months we can always add it back in if we want then

JO: This is a nice clean example
... I suggest we drop example 1 from this techniques

DM: It sounds like there are many things in flux. I think this allows us breathing room

SP: An Example doesnt work in JAWS 15

AWK: I do not have complete data - I see that it is working in JAWS 14

JO: It works in VoiceOver and WindowEyes and Talkback

RESOLUTION: Drop Video example 1 from the technique of ARIA10 and accepted

2. Revised version of F65

<Joshue> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Aria-Edit:_F65:_Failure_of_Success_Criterion_1.1.1_due_to_omitting_the_alt_attribute_on_img_elements,_area_elements,_and_input_elements_of_type_image

JO: Bruce, do you want to speak to your comment?

BB: This goes back to what Loretta said that Failures are stronger than the technique. Do we want to weaken this?

AWK: Loretta can you recap this?

<JF> +1 to Loretta. Choice is always good.

LGR: The goal is to leave room for people who want to experiment with aria-labelledby. We need to be careful that you never need alt. I think that people will never use aria-labelledby if they have to also use alt

I do not agree with that

SP: It was this point about accessibility support - developers use this for guidance - you are putting the guidance on the developers
... But I am OK

DM: I'm looking at the language at the top - does that really cover all elements?
... Is it going to cover the CSS coponenets I am not sure I am asking the question. Is ist widde open or is it limited to specific components in HTML

<Zakim> AWK, you wanted to discuss accessibility support role for techniques and support for labelledby on a mobile app as an example

AWK: This is a compromise of sorts. What is the goal of techniques moving forward. Accessibility support is what people always need to do for all techniques.
... You need to explicit say that developers need to ensure that their audience is accessibility supported to be suffifcent. We have support is mobile devices.
... Mobile that is a valid environment.

LGR: Those three element types are the types that can take an alt attribute. Common failures. That is the reason we need to document. I do not think this failure that will prevent all problem

JN: I am concerned about a slippery slope of having to document all failures - because it has not been called out.

LGR: We do not have user agent notes in failures.
... That is why we included it here
... We do include user agent notes in Technniques

<Zakim> David, you wanted to explore "target audience"

<Loretta> Please propose better language!

DM: Theere are some important words in these failure technniques. I see the word target audience. I see Understanding document it only appears 1 place in the Underestanding doc and it uses this term is the exact opposite meaning
... I am worried a little bit. I am not sure that this solves it

JO: I can see that

LGR: I am totally willing to have that reworded for that

??: I am concerned about the title of the failure.

LGR: That is a good catch

<Loretta> "for the users' assistive technology' ?

<AWK> "Failure of Success Criterion 1.1.1 due to omitting the alt attribute on img elements, area elements, and input elements of type image"

<AWK> "Failure of Success Criterion 1.1.1 due to omitting the equivalent information on img elements, area elements, and input elements of type image"

<AWK> "Failure of Success Criterion 1.1.1 due to omitting text equivalents for img elements, area elements, and input elements of type image"

<David> how about just dropping target audience... so it should be accessibility supported ...period

<Loretta> David, that works for me.

<Joshue> works for me

DM: Want to loose the term Target audience

<Jon_Avila> I recommend using the term "text alternative" rather than "alt attribute" in the title of F65 -Failure of Success Criterion 1.1.1 due to omitting text alternative on img elements, area elements, and input elements of type image

JO: We will remove the the term Target audience formm the failure

<Jon_Avila> Could add the word "a".

<AWK> "Failure of Success Criterion 1.1.1 due to omitting text alternatives for img elements, area elements, and input elements of type image."

JN: alt ="" is misleading

<Jon_Avila> We could say text to title say text alternative or alt attribute

<Joshue> +1 to JF

<AWK> "Failure of Success Criterion 1.1.1 due to omitting information about alternative text for img elements, area elements, and input elements of type image."

JF: I want to say for accessibility specialist - if we are text alternative - technically it is not incorrect.

LGR: Text alternative 1.1.1 doesnt use text alternative so braodly

<David> Aria-Edit: F65: Failure of Success Criterion 1.1.1 due to omitting text alternatives for img elements, area elements, and input elements of type image that are not pure decoration

JO: Could we put something into the failure about what alt is

LGR: The is is just how are we going to define the title

JN: what is we use both

<Jon_Avila> My recommendation Failure of Success Criterion 1.1.1 due to omitting the alt attribute or text alternative on img elements, area elements, and input elements of type image

JN: and or or

[Many agree with 'or']

<Joshue> +1

<Jon_Avila> +1

<AWK> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Aria-Edit:_F65:_Failure_of_Success_Criterion_1.1.1_due_to_omitting_text_alternatives_for_img_elements,_area_elements,_and_input_elements_of_type_image

<Joshue> RESOLUTION: Title change of F65 to "Failure of Success Criterion 1.1.1 due to omitting text equivalents for img elements, area elements, and input elements of type image"

RESOLUTION: Accept F65 as amended in this meeting

[Defer: 3. LC-2880: This technique should be a failure technique and 4]

5. Git Pull request 9: Less Latin

AWK: Will amend to remove..

6. Git Pull request 8: Additional example for ARIA9

JO: They got merger - I would like to accept abd leave it open
... I could pass on to the commentor

RESOLUTION: Leave OPEN Topic: 6. Git Pull request 8: Additional example for ARIA

7. REDO: LC-2895: Add "Techniques for Specific Technologies"

AWK: I discussed this with Shawn concerning the EO comment. We should leave it open
... Should we role back?

RESOLUTION: Leave OPEN Topic: LC-2895: Add "Techniques for Specific Technologies"

<scribe> ACTION: Andrew to verify that no change was made to the source docs for LC-2895 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/02/25-wai-wcag-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> 'Andrew' is an ambiguous username. Please try a differenterent identifier, such as family name or username (e.g., akirkpat2, alahart).

<scribe> ACTION: AWK to verify that no change was made to the source docs for LC-2895 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/02/25-wai-wcag-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-239 - Verify that no change was made to the source docs for lc-2895 [on Andrew Kirkpatrick - due 2014-03-04].

discuss ARIA10/F65 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/imagediscussmtg/results

AWK: We have to update all of our dead links
... Micheal_Cooper sent out an email on that. We have the current Editors Draft - we would like to ask the group for permission to publish on March 4th

MC: the current draft has the User Agent Notes that is moved off to a seperate document - to make it easier to update the information as we have things like JF group doing testing we can update User agent notes

AWK: there are still a couple of lnks to fix and the upadyes we discussed to day?
... Is there any comments about publishing March 4th

RESOLUTION: To Publish the latest Editors Draft on March 4th with the discussed edits today

JO: We will move the remaining items to next week

CSUN

AWK: Maybe the hours will be 9 to 5 and maybe finish at 6 and have dinner at 7. But maybe we will finish at 5 and still have dinner at 7

Attendees: Sailesh_Panchang, Loretta, Jon_Avila, Marc_Johlic, David_MacDonald, John_Foliot, Katie_Haritos-Shea, Andrew_Kirkpatrick, James_Nurthen, Joshue_O'Conner, Bruce_Bailey, +31.13.509.aaaa, Micheal_Cooper,

s/accpet/accept/G

trackbot, status?

+ dshkolnik, AWK, Joshue_OConner, David_MacDonald, Bruce_Bailey, Marc_Johlic, Sailesh_Panchang, Michael_Cooper, Jon_Avila, Katie_Haritos-Shea, John_Foliot, Loretta, MichelC, James_Nurthen,

+ Loretta

+ John_Foliot

+John_Foliot

+Loretta

- DRAFT -

Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference

25 Feb 2014

Attendees

Contents

Misc survey for February 25th, 2014 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20140225/

Edits to ARIA10

CSUN Hackathon for AT testing of ARIA

Edits to ARIA10

2. Revised version of F65

5. Git Pull request 9: Less Latin

6. Git Pull request 8: Additional example for ARIA9

7. REDO: LC-2895: Add "Techniques for Specific Technologies"

discuss ARIA10/F65 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/imagediscussmtg/results

CSUN

Summary of Action Items

Scribe.perl diagnostic output