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16:55:22 <wilhelm> Meeting: Browser testing & tools WG F2F, San Francisco, February 2014
16:55:29 <wilhelm> Chair: wilhelm
16:55:37 <wilhelm> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebDriver/2014-February-F2F
16:56:04 <wilhelm> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:56:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/02/25-testing-minutes.html wilhelm
16:56:34 <wilhelm> RRSAgent, make logs public
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17:10:47 <wilhelm> Scribe: wilhelm
17:11:10 <wilhelm> Topic: Introductions
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17:14:10 <wilhelm> Topic: State of the union
17:14:47 <wilhelm> sstewart6: I've started adding URI endpoints to the spec. That should make it easier to write conforming implementations.
17:15:00 <wilhelm> Automate_: I've been trying to make the spec look like a spec.
17:15:13 <wilhelm> ... User interactions stawman discussed in June is landed.
17:15:20 <wilhelm> ... Please raise bugs on this.
17:15:24 <JohnJansen> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webdriver/raw-file/tip/webdriver-spec.html
17:15:33 <wilhelm> ... Going through the bugs, closing some.
17:15:54 <wilhelm> sstewart6: We've moving towards Selenium 3.
17:16:03 <wilhelm> ... Selenium is the example implementation of this.
17:16:11 <wilhelm> ... Selenium 3 will be W3C compatible.
17:16:35 <wilhelm> ... It has not shipped yet.
17:16:40 <wilhelm> Topic: Agenda review
17:16:45 <sstewart6> https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebDriver/2014-February-F2F
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17:18:57 <sstewart6> https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebDriver/2014-February-F2F
17:19:34 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:19:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/02/25-testing-minutes.html MikeSmith
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17:19:56 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make logs public
17:20:10 <wilhelm> lukeis: Frame searching bug?
17:20:16 <wilhelm> Automate_: There is a section on bugs.
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17:20:30 <lukeis> *switching (not searching)
17:20:53 <wilhelm> Topic: Recap, actions from TPAC
17:21:20 <wilhelm> sstewart6: Come up with a better name of interactable?
17:21:28 <wilhelm> Automate_: No conclusion.
17:21:38 <wilhelm> ato__: Suggested reachable.
17:21:42 <wilhelm> isReachable
17:22:33 <wilhelm> Automate_: Minutes from last time cover the consensus.
17:22:56 <wilhelm> sstewart6: We had a discussion with P&F WG last meeting.
17:23:26 <wilhelm> Automate_: We spoke to the webperf group last time, re: page visibility and element visibility.
17:23:39 <wilhelm> Automate_: sstewart6 showed them how we'd want it to work.
17:23:49 <wilhelm> Automate_: That was going to be in a future version of the spec.
17:23:58 <wilhelm> ... They just pushed one of their specs to CR.
17:24:03 <wilhelm> ... Mozilla has raised bugs on this.
17:24:14 <wilhelm> sstewart6: We did rename section 10.1.
17:24:26 <wilhelm> sstewart6: No progress on "Request elementfrompoint with a DOM relative coordinate instead of a viewport relative coordinate"
17:24:31 <Automate_> http://www.w3.org/2013/11/11-testing-minutes.html#ActionSummary
17:24:52 <wilhelm> sstewart6: We might need to handle the visibility check ourselves.
17:25:01 <wilhelm> MikeSmith: Has anyone said they want to work on this?
17:25:13 <wilhelm> sstewart6: The closes we get is the webperf group. Use case is advertiser.
17:25:22 <wilhelm> s/advertiser/advertisers
17:25:36 <wilhelm> MikeSmith: Why did CSS not decide to do it?
17:25:43 <wilhelm> Automate_: I raised a bug against CSSOM.
17:25:53 <wilhelm> Automate_: I suspect it's lost along the way.
17:26:12 <wilhelm> sstewart6: Discussed in 2012. CSS passed buck to DOM land, and the other way around.
17:26:38 <wilhelm> MikeSmith: Make we could motivate Moz CSS rep to work on this...
17:26:43 <Ms2ger> Link?
17:28:29 <wilhelm> ACTION: sstewart6 to talk to CSS WG about visibility detection
17:29:01 <wilhelm> ACTION: Automate_ to speak to Tantek about his old action item on visibility and hit testing
17:29:15 <wilhelm> Automate_: There is no good definition of hit testing anywhere.
17:29:27 <JohnJansen> http://www.w3.org/TR/cssom-view/
17:29:33 <wilhelm> JohnJansen: Covered in CSS OM View spec?
17:29:40 <Ms2ger> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom-view/
17:30:02 <MikeSmith> -> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom-view/ CSSOM View Module
17:30:27 <wilhelm> Automate_: Nobody wants to define this, as it's a big can of worms.
17:30:28 <JohnJansen> and the more generic CSSOM spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/cssom/
17:30:34 <MikeSmith> -> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom/ CSS Object Model (CSSOM)
17:30:51 <wilhelm> sstewart6: Add scrollwheel support: no progress.
17:31:04 <sstewart6> http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-testing-minutes.html#ActionSummary
17:31:50 <wilhelm> Automate_: First action on me is done.
17:32:03 <wilhelm> Automate_: No progress on upstream of screenshot tests. Has not been high priority.
17:32:26 <wilhelm> Automate_: Strawman of  17.2 is now in place.
17:33:11 <wilhelm> MikeSmith: No progress on link from TR to editors draft.
17:33:21 <wilhelm> MikeSmith: TR will point to editors draft.
17:34:30 <wilhelm> MikeSmith: A recurring problem is that implementors use the outdated TR version of the spec, while they should be using the editors draft.
17:35:33 <wilhelm> sstewart6: Some progress on identifying tests to move over from the open source project.
17:35:43 <wilhelm> sstewart6: Placeholders have been added.
17:36:07 <wilhelm> sstewart6: No progress on WCAG analysis.
17:36:31 <wilhelm> sstewart6: Strawman for HTTP normalisation for the JSON Wire Protocol has been added to the spec.
17:36:51 <wilhelm> lukeis: Is this section G?
17:36:59 <wilhelm> sstewart6: That section will be automated based on content elsewhere in the spec.
17:37:13 <sstewart6> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webdriver/raw-file/default/webdriver-spec.html#methods-2
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17:38:07 <wilhelm> Automate_: The notes in the table - how would they be different from describing how the method is working?
17:38:19 <wilhelm> sstewart6: The note will make it over to section G.
17:38:43 <wilhelm> Automate_: We need to conscious that different parts of the spec will go out of sync.
17:38:53 <wilhelm> sstewart6: Should be a reference to a particular section.
17:39:01 <wilhelm> ... We could make the notes non-normative.
17:39:03 <wilhelm> Automate_: Nah.
17:39:36 <wilhelm> sstewart6: These are the URLs that all implementations will support.
17:39:40 <wilhelm> Automate_: Moz will support these.
17:39:47 <wilhelm> Automate_: ato has done work on this recently.
17:40:40 <wilhelm> Automate_: web-platform-test will make it into the main Moz tree.
17:40:55 <wilhelm> Automate_: For selendroid there's going to be interesting problem you need to solve.
17:41:12 <wilhelm> sstewart6: Main problem is instanziating the browser...
17:41:41 <wilhelm> lukeis: I will submit patches..
17:42:20 <wilhelm> sstewart6: Current URLs have a leading slash. They may not be in the root.
17:42:25 <wilhelm> lukeis: We could have a prefix?
17:42:45 <wilhelm> ACTION: sstewart6 to add prefix to JSON URLs
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17:55:11 <wilhelm> Topic: Current timeline of spec
17:55:23 <wilhelm> sstewart6: Where are we?
17:55:36 <wilhelm> sstewart6: We're not tracking as fast as we should.
17:55:42 <wilhelm> AutomatedTester: Spec is, test suite is not.
17:56:16 <wilhelm> AutomatedTester: Bugs have been raised on the spec
17:56:29 <AutomatedTester> Ms2ger: :)
17:56:53 <wilhelm> wilhelm: I reported some bugs on wooly language of the spec.
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17:57:32 <wilhelm> AutomatedTester: Ms2ger will go through the spec and rip it apart. He has already given useful input.
17:57:43 <wilhelm> AutomatedTester: (Cites examples.)
17:58:15 <wilhelm> AutomatedTester: We have a lot of fluffy language. Describing features, but lacking in confromance requirements.
17:58:37 <wilhelm> MikeSmith: Input from jgraham would also be useful here.
17:59:18 <wilhelm> ato__: Progress on the test suite may be slow due to style differences in test suite.
17:59:37 <wilhelm> ato__: Using the Python package makes it harder to test lower level things.
17:59:48 <wilhelm> ato__: Capabilities are not exposed.
17:59:56 <wilhelm> sstewart6: I'd use a raw HTTP library.
18:00:19 <wilhelm> sstewart6: Set aside time to discuss the style of the suite.
18:00:29 <ato> Ms2ger: We'll do that.
18:00:54 <wilhelm> ato__: We should switch to wptserve.
18:01:08 <Ms2ger> :)
18:01:15 <wilhelm> ACTION: ato__ to switch to wptserve in webdriver test suite
18:01:33 <ato> wilhelm: Hi, this is me.
18:01:58 <wilhelm> sstewart6: We're sort of on track with the spec, but not with the suite.
18:02:17 <wilhelm> AutomatedTester: There will be a lot of changes needed to the spec, to be discovered as we work on the tests.
18:03:12 <wilhelm> Topic: Charter
18:03:32 <wilhelm> MikeSmith: You don't need to do anything! I need to get off my ass and do something.
18:04:03 <wilhelm> MikeSmith: The charter needs some more detail on milestones.
18:05:30 <wilhelm> MikeSmith: There is a heartbeat requirement about pushing to TR.
18:06:20 <wilhelm> MikeSmith: We'll ask for a two year extension for the charter.
18:07:06 <wilhelm> Topic: Bugs! Woo!
18:07:13 <AutomatedTester> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20860
18:07:39 <wilhelm> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?component=WebDriver&list_id=33041&product=Browser%20Test%2FTools%20WG&resolution=---
18:09:12 <AutomatedTester> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21184
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18:10:03 <wilhelm> jimevans1: The use case is: suppose you have an element that is so large that even scrolling it into the viewport, the center will not be in the viewport.
18:10:16 <wilhelm> jimevans1: The script won't be able to click the center.
18:10:46 <wilhelm> MarcFisher: What if the center is otherwise obscured?
18:11:02 <wilhelm> sstewart6: If the center is obscured: don't use click. Use interactions API.
18:11:24 <wilhelm> jimevans1: Proposed: Click could still work by clicking on the midpoint of the visible area.
18:12:16 <wilhelm> mdas: Why can't we just scroll to where we want to click?
18:12:24 <wilhelm> jimevans1: We were lazy...
18:13:20 <wilhelm> sstewart6: (Describes approach similar to what is proposed in the bug.)
18:14:06 <wilhelm> (Conclusion to this issue is added to the bug.)
18:15:12 <sstewart6> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24364
18:16:10 <wilhelm> sstewart6: Use case: run test with a constrained viewport. Want to compare screenshots.
18:16:23 <wilhelm> sstewart6: Better: Capture the top-level browsing context.
18:16:32 <wilhelm> sstewart6: Or the current browsing context.
18:16:47 <wilhelm> sstewart6: Chrome team was not happy with the whole DOM.
18:17:20 <wilhelm> Shuotao_chris_: Lacking low-level tools for this...
18:17:37 <wilhelm> sstewart6: If it's in the spec...
18:17:49 <wilhelm> sstewart6: Stitching is an awful approach.
18:18:22 <wilhelm> MarcFisher: Don't let the limitations of Chrome limit us here.
18:18:58 <wilhelm> sstewart6: We resize IE windows to the document size in the IEdriver.
18:19:25 <wilhelm> JohnJansen: Most of the time you don't need to worry about what's outside the viewport.
18:19:29 <wilhelm> JohnJansen: Use a flag?
18:19:47 <wilhelm> JohnJansen: It's better to target a specific area.
18:20:03 <wilhelm> sstewart6: Element capture.
18:20:28 <wilhelm> sstewart6: MS and Google is saying taking a screenshot of the entire page is difficult.
18:20:37 <wilhelm> AutomatedTester: Moz implementation is a hack...
18:20:53 <wilhelm> sstewart6: What is a good way to do this? I'd like to hear from the implementors.
18:21:14 <wilhelm> sstewart6: Visible viewport?
18:21:32 <wilhelm> JohnJansen: We'd like to have an option. Full viewport or the whole document.
18:22:39 <wilhelm> sstewart6: All implementations must be able to capture the viewport. Capability for whole document.
18:22:51 <wilhelm> ato: Why not just use element capture of the root element?
18:23:05 <wilhelm> sstewart6: It will depend on the browser. You can't just assume it works.
18:23:25 <wilhelm> AutomatedTester: If someone wanted to test their responsive web site, we don't actually support that.
18:24:12 <wilhelm> sstewart6: When capturing the top level browsing context, maintain page width for this use case.
18:25:33 <wilhelm> sstewart6: In level 2, we can describe the more complex case of rotation, etc.
18:26:22 <wilhelm> sstewart6: All browsers must be able to capture the viewport. All browsers should be able to capture the entire document as if the window was resized vertically. Capability for the latter.
18:27:20 <wilhelm> seva: How would you request either of these?
18:27:28 <wilhelm> sstewart6: Capability.
18:27:50 <wilhelm> sstewart6: We should prefer the full document.
18:28:15 <wilhelm> JohnJansen: Chrome disagrees with making the full DOM default. If running tests against my site, I'd need to store images for both variants.
18:28:36 <wilhelm> MarcFisher: Screenshotting just the element is more sensible.
18:29:39 <wilhelm> JohnJansen: Use case of position:fixed;
18:29:47 <wilhelm> sstewart6: We could add a flag on the wire to indicate size.
18:30:00 <wilhelm> MarcFisher: It's a POST command. We can add values to it.
18:30:08 <wilhelm> sstewart6: Capability on whether you can do these things.
18:30:16 <wilhelm> sstewart6: Pass a parameter.
18:30:34 <wilhelm> sstewart6: Default is as big as you can go.
18:31:00 <wilhelm> ato: We should have a default.
18:31:54 <wilhelm> seva: Interop is the argument here. If all browsers support viewport, we should default to that.
18:32:58 <wilhelm> sstewart6: If you capture an element and the element is bigger than the viewport...
18:33:01 <wilhelm> sstewart6: What do we do?
18:33:35 <wilhelm> mdas: Use a separate canvas?
18:33:42 <wilhelm> Shuotao_chris_: Won't work in ChromeDriver.
18:33:43 <ato> JohnJansen: Fixed
18:33:47 <wilhelm> AutomatedTester: Why?
18:34:30 <wilhelm> Shuotao_chris_: We don't have the low level support.
18:34:41 <wilhelm> sstewart6: Fundamental constraint?
18:35:00 <wilhelm> Shuotao_chris_: GPU team says no. They don't want to do a hack.
18:35:56 <wilhelm> sstewart6: Shove the element into the top left corner and capture as much as you can.
18:36:22 <wilhelm> sstewart6: Leave it undefined?
18:36:25 <wilhelm> sstewart6: We could put a note in.
18:36:37 <wilhelm> JohnJansen: (Quotes spec on this.)
18:37:45 <wilhelm> JohnJansen: Two floats, side by side. In Chrome, there's allowed to be a overlap. In IE, no. Interop issue. We need to be able to catch that.
18:38:24 <wilhelm> JohnJansen: For that bug, I know I need the parent element. Other times, I don't know.
18:38:30 <wilhelm> JohnJansen: I prefer if it doesn't scroll.
18:38:40 <wilhelm> sstewart6: Use case: long page, element is out of view.
18:38:59 <wilhelm> JohnJansen: I'd rather scroll to view first.
18:39:08 <wilhelm> sstewart6: There is no such feature.
18:39:54 <wilhelm> sstewart6: Part of the audience is people without programming experience. We need to make this simple.
18:40:31 <wilhelm> JohnJansen: For reftests, we could add "take screenshot without scrolling".
18:41:38 <wilhelm> wilhelm: We need to support both use cases here. Reftests and magic scrolling to element.
18:42:40 <wilhelm> sstewart6: Option of passing a parameter rather than a capability.
18:42:58 <wilhelm> AutomatedTester: If parameter is not there, scroll. If it is there, don't.
18:43:54 <wilhelm> ACTION: AutomatedTester to add a flag to take element screenshot without scrolling
18:44:29 <sstewart6> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24633
18:45:00 <wilhelm> sstewart6: Which option should it be?
18:45:13 <wilhelm> jimevans1: Descendant.
18:45:43 <sstewart6> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20975
18:46:13 <wilhelm> ACTION: sstewart6 to define that cookies can only be set against domains that are currently loaded
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18:46:31 <wilhelm> lukeis: Use case is: set cookie before navigating to the site.
18:46:35 <wilhelm> sstewart6: Don't do that.
18:46:41 <wilhelm> lukeis: It should throw an exception.
18:46:52 <wilhelm> sstewart6: I can add language for that.
18:47:10 <wilhelm> sstewart6: People set cookies to avoid login.
18:47:28 <wilhelm> sstewart6: They should navigate to a page, set a cookie, then reload.
18:47:46 <wilhelm> sstewart6: This is to allow a pure JS implementation of this.
18:49:00 <sstewart6> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22653
18:49:59 <wilhelm> ato: Greg had an opinion on this in June.
18:50:09 <wilhelm> sstewart6: Use case in Maps.
18:50:12 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make mintues
18:50:12 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make mintues', MikeSmith.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
18:50:17 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
18:50:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/02/25-testing-minutes.html MikeSmith
18:51:07 <wilhelm> MarcFisher: What interaction would you want to do with the container?
18:51:12 <wilhelm> AutomatedTester: Hover?
18:51:20 <wilhelm> sstewart6: We need Greg to clarify.
18:52:10 <sstewart6> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22987
18:52:22 <wilhelm> sstewart6: Punt to level 2.
18:53:16 <sstewart6> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23020
18:54:19 <sstewart6> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23791
18:54:36 <wilhelm> jimevans1: No, just no?
18:55:27 <wilhelm> MarcFisher: Definitely level 2.
18:55:41 <wilhelm> sstewart6: I have no idea how to implement this.
18:56:23 <sstewart6> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23868
18:57:06 <wilhelm> sstewart6: I don't think this is incorrect. Close?
18:57:20 <wilhelm> sstewart6: The click on element is do what I mean.
18:57:41 <wilhelm> sstewart6: Do as I mean APIs could be implemented in top of the interaction APIs.
18:57:49 <wilhelm> sstewart6: Bleedthrough expected.
18:58:16 <wilhelm> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23869
18:58:51 <sstewart6> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webdriver/raw-file/default/webdriver-spec.html#cookies
18:59:01 <wilhelm> sstewart6: What other data would you like to return?
18:59:15 <wilhelm> sstewart6: FF does a good job of this. IE returns name and value.
18:59:28 <wilhelm> JohnJansen: We could return if it's third party, session cookie, secure cookie...
19:00:10 <wilhelm> ACTION: AutomatedTester to add whether it's a session cookie, a secure cookie
19:00:50 <wilhelm> ACTION: AutomatedTester to link to the cookies RFC to describe the data format for expiry
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19:19:04 <sstewart6> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23876
19:19:43 <wilhelm> ato: We reached a conclusion in Boston, but spec is not updated.
19:20:30 <wilhelm> AutomatedTester: Do we want to spec files going over the wire?
19:20:52 <wilhelm> ACTION: sstewart6 to describe how we send files across the wire
19:21:50 <sstewart6> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23949
19:21:58 <wilhelm> ato: This is in level 2.
19:22:03 <sstewart6> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23950
19:22:39 <wilhelm> ato: Since we're adding the argument to take screenshot, we'll need this.
19:22:50 <wilhelm> sstewart6: Spec says you can pass whatever across the wire.
19:24:45 <sstewart6> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23972
19:24:53 <wilhelm> sstewart6: I'm in favour of this.
19:24:55 <wilhelm> JohnJansen: That' fine.
19:25:09 <sstewart6> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webdriver/raw-file/default/webdriver-spec.html#platform-names
19:25:39 <wilhelm> sstewart6: Do we want to go lowercase?
19:25:42 <wilhelm> (Yes.)
19:25:52 <wilhelm> ACTION: sstewart6 to lowercase platform names
19:26:52 <sstewart6> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24063
19:27:06 <wilhelm> sstewart6: That's legit.
19:27:13 <wilhelm> sstewart6: I'll soften the language to SHOULD.
19:28:30 <sstewart6> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24132
19:28:39 <wilhelm> sstewart6: This should be in level 1.
19:28:48 <wilhelm> sstewart6: This MUST be in level 1.
19:29:05 <sstewart6> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24133
19:29:16 <wilhelm> sstewart6: I'll take that.
19:29:31 <wilhelm> sstewart6: INteresting case of quit mulitple times.
19:29:40 <wilhelm> lukeis: Case of close last window.
19:29:53 <wilhelm> AutomatedTester: Language is fluffy, but says you should close...
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19:30:13 <sstewart6> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webdriver/raw-file/default/webdriver-spec.html#closing-windows
19:30:50 <sstewart6> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24225
19:32:46 <wilhelm> sstewart6: We could drop id. This is possible with CSS selectors.
19:33:12 <wilhelm> sstewart6: We could also drop the capabilities.
19:35:10 <wilhelm> sstewart6: The language bindings can still support id. But the remote end won't need to.
19:36:18 <wilhelm> seva: This may confuse other audiences.
19:37:15 <wilhelm> seva: Does the spec cover language bindings?
19:37:17 <wilhelm> sstewart6: No.
19:38:31 <wilhelm> lukeis: For native language bindings, id is still valid.
19:41:25 <wilhelm> sstewart6: We will remove id, not implement classname. We will remove capability for CSS selector.
19:42:41 <wilhelm> ACTION: sstewart6 to remove id location strategy
19:42:59 <wilhelm> ACTION: sstewart6 to remove CSS selector capability (it's assumed)
19:43:18 <wilhelm> MarcFisher: Add note that those issues can be handled on the local end?
19:43:53 <wilhelm> ACTION: sstewart6 to add a note that you can use extension mechanisms to add location strategies
19:44:03 <wilhelm> JohnJansen: We don't support XPath.
19:44:38 <wilhelm> JohnJansen: Must we have a must for XPath?
19:45:08 <wilhelm> sstewart6: XPath is commonly used by test authors.
19:45:18 <wilhelm> sstewart6: There is a JS library for this.
19:46:05 <wilhelm> sstewart6: All it needs to do is to appear to support it. Translating to querySelectorAll is fine.
19:46:21 <wilhelm> JohnJansen: Yes, we can translate it on our end.
19:47:51 <wilhelm> MikeSmith: Why do we keep XPath?
19:47:54 <wilhelm> sstewart6: It's popular.
19:48:06 <wilhelm> jimevans1: It's the only way to select things via visible text.
19:49:24 <sstewart6> https://code.google.com/p/wicked-good-xpath/
19:49:25 <wilhelm> sstewart6: It's popular among QA.
19:49:35 <wilhelm> wilhelm: Coud we subset it? So we don't need all of XPath?
19:49:46 <wilhelm> ato: That's not a bad idea.
19:49:58 <wilhelm> sstewart6: The problem is there are so many existing tests that rely on this.
19:50:05 <wilhelm> JohnJansen: Should instead of must?
19:50:29 <wilhelm> sstewart6: I don't want to break existing tests.
19:50:54 <wilhelm> jimevans1: Traversal use cases are also not overed by selectors.
19:51:17 <wilhelm> ato: Could we keep this in the language bindings?
19:51:29 <wilhelm> sstewart6: Or keep it as is. More efficient for the mobile use case.
19:51:37 <wilhelm> sstewart6: I hate it, but we need to keep XPath.
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19:52:39 <wilhelm> mdas_: Deprecation warning?
19:52:47 <wilhelm> MikeSmith: Little impact.
19:53:41 <wilhelm> wilhelm: Can we start the long march towards removing the use cases for XPath by subsetting?
19:53:47 <wilhelm> sstewart6: Yes, but not in level 1.
19:54:08 <wilhelm> sstewart6: XPath must be supported, but not neccessarily in the browser itself.
19:54:28 <wilhelm> JohnJansen: Our driver won't support XPath natively.
19:54:38 <wilhelm> JohnJansen: We'll have to write a translator.
19:54:50 <wilhelm> JohnJansen: We won't write our tests using XPath.
19:55:44 <wilhelm> sstewart6: We put this as a must. We ask Google, Salesforce, Facebook about the prevalence of XPath.
19:55:51 <wilhelm> ato: What does wpt do here?
19:56:02 <wilhelm> JohnJansen: We're doing querySelectorAll for wpt.
19:56:19 <wilhelm> lukeis: We have to look through RC code...
19:56:56 <wilhelm> JohnJansen: Interesting data point: How many can be transslated to querySelectorAll?
19:57:16 <wilhelm> sstewart6: If your translator is avaible, people could run their tests to see what happens.
19:57:25 <wilhelm> ... We'll revisit this issue when we have data.
19:57:38 <wilhelm> seva: We will not define select by text?
19:57:44 <wilhelm> sstewart6: Not in level 1.
19:59:32 <sstewart6> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24373
19:59:32 <JohnJansen> So there's no confusion: The IE team is writing a web driver implementation for IE11+
19:59:56 <sstewart6> :))
20:00:16 <sstewart6> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24634
20:02:04 <wilhelm> sstewart6: It's a must, really. Even if it has no size, it looks like the body element is there.
20:02:39 <wilhelm> lukeis: I'm okay with saying the body is always visible.
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20:07:30 <wilhelm> ACTION: ato to research root element behaviour in HTML and XML
20:07:37 <sstewart6> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24635
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21:24:49 <MikeSmith> scribe: MikeSmith
21:25:00 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
21:25:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/02/25-testing-minutes.html MikeSmith
21:26:16 <MikeSmith> Present+ MikeSmith
21:26:29 <JohnJansen> Present+ JohnJansen
21:26:51 <wilhelm> Present+ wilhelm
21:26:51 <seva> Present+ seva
21:26:53 <MarcFisher> Present+ MarcFisher
21:26:57 <lukeis> Present+ LukeInmanSemerau
21:26:59 <ato> Present+ ato
21:27:05 <jimevans> Present+ jimevans
21:27:07 <mdas> Present+ mdas
21:27:09 <sstewart6> Present+ SimonStewart
21:27:14 <sam_> Present+ samuong
21:27:15 <Automate_> Present+ DavidBurns
21:27:19 <Shuotao> Present+ ShuotaoGao
21:27:24 <dannin> dannin has joined #testing
21:27:47 <sstewart6> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24635
21:27:50 <dannin> Present + Dale Annin
21:27:55 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
21:27:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/02/25-testing-minutes.html MikeSmith
21:28:13 <MikeSmith>  switchToFrame should only accept a WebElement or number argument
21:28:25 <MikeSmith> sstewart6: why should it not?
21:28:44 <MikeSmith> Automate_: everybody except IE doesn't follow the spec
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21:29:04 <MikeSmith> MarcFisher: or we could just get rid of the index
21:29:35 <dannin> Present+ dannin
21:30:17 <sstewart6> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24662
21:30:28 <MikeSmith> Automate_: see that bug
21:31:14 <AutomatedTester> Present+ DavidBurns
21:31:14 <MikeSmith> AutomatedTester: discussion among Hixie and bz
21:32:37 <MikeSmith> sstewart6: what's wrong with us retaining the number and equatin
21:38:02 <MikeSmith> [discussion of how to address the issue]
21:39:01 <MikeSmith> sstewart6: if I'm a developer and I want to switch to frame at index 1, how do I implement that?
21:39:12 <MikeSmith> mdas: can't you get the frame element
21:39:27 <MikeSmith> jimevans: not across domains
21:39:44 <MikeSmith> AutomatedTester: can see it but can't see what's inside it
21:41:05 <MikeSmith> sstewart6: spec currently just says, whatever frame would be given back?
21:41:32 <MikeSmith> MarcFisher: but that may not produce the same frame across browsers?
21:41:54 <MikeSmith> s/across browsers?/across browsers/
21:42:15 <MikeSmith> MarcFisher: the problem is that the current behavior is not useful
21:42:30 <MikeSmith> sstewart6: it may be sufficiently useful
21:42:41 <MikeSmith> sstewart6: question is whether this is our problem to solve
21:43:15 <MikeSmith> ato: we could defer this to the next f2f
21:47:38 <MikeSmith> sstewart6: for us I don't think it matters
21:48:18 <MikeSmith> sstewart6: remove the locaters by ID and name
21:48:29 <MikeSmith> ... keep index and webElement
21:49:12 <MikeSmith> ... and add a note that webElement is the preferred for the reason that index won't give you the same frame across browser engines
21:50:57 <MikeSmith> lukeis: [want to suggest we discuss problem of switching from a frame to its parent frame]
21:51:45 <MikeSmith> sstewart6: what do people think about switching to parent? quick vote
21:51:55 <MikeSmith> [everybody likes it]
21:52:07 <MikeSmith> sstewart6: ok we'll do it then
21:54:37 <MikeSmith> [agreement about speccing it by adding descriptive string (instead of say, -1)]
21:55:02 <MikeSmith> sstewart6: pluse new endpoint
21:55:15 <MikeSmith> JohnJansen: one other thing about frames
21:55:52 <MikeSmith> action: Luke to identify new endpoint for hooking switch to parent into
21:56:11 <MikeSmith> action: Simon to define frame in section 6.1
21:57:00 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
21:57:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/02/25-testing-minutes.html MikeSmith
21:57:32 <sstewart6> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24791
21:58:28 <MikeSmith> Drop reference to HTML4 from the "Interactable elements" chapter
21:58:43 <sstewart6> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24792
22:02:58 <MikeSmith> action: David to review references to ensure they meet transition requirements
22:03:39 <MikeSmith> "Page load strategies" constants are ambiguous
22:03:45 <MikeSmith> sstewart6: I will fix that
22:04:41 <sstewart6> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24794
22:04:53 <MikeSmith> HTTPS requirements are inconsistent
22:04:59 <MikeSmith> sstewart6: I will fixe that
22:05:31 <AutomatedTester> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20947
22:05:50 <MikeSmith> Click does not mention if it should/shouldnt wait for page loads if its noticed (
22:06:01 <MikeSmith> sstewart6: that's deliberate
22:06:38 <mdas> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20947
22:19:25 <MikeSmith> [discussing how to identify use case of how to log what command caused a failure]
22:19:50 <sstewart6> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webdriver/raw-file/default/webdriver-spec.html#extending-the-protocol
22:19:55 <MikeSmith> [noting that logging still needs to be written]
22:20:43 <MikeSmith> sstewart6: that section describes how to deal with this right now
22:21:54 <lukeis> example of extending the protocol: https://github.com/selendroid/selendroid/commit/d275f3a10b63b3fb9616f0bc677b3262addd6c95
22:22:31 <MikeSmith> sstewart6: I will attempt add a [placeholder] for logging API [soon]
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22:37:45 <MikeSmith> Topic: Clarifications
22:38:35 <MikeSmith> JohnJansen: in 4.1 about creating session
22:38:49 <MikeSmith> ... shoudl that autoatically lauch a browser window?
22:39:01 <MikeSmith> ... or can it connet to an existing window?
22:39:23 <MikeSmith> sstewart6: turns out that connecting to an existing window only can be made to work well in IE
22:39:47 <MikeSmith> [mention that it's possible with Marionette]
22:40:19 <MikeSmith> mdas: you mean browser window or tab?
22:40:31 <MikeSmith> sstewart6: new browser instance
22:42:07 <MikeSmith> sstewart6: new session brings up an independent session
22:42:54 <MikeSmith> mdas: in this case we have someone who wants to connect to a particular tab
22:43:05 <MikeSmith> sstewart6: so they need to know the session id
22:43:16 <MikeSmith> sstewart6: just generate one
22:44:09 <MikeSmith> sstewart6: there is not an existing command but there are ways to do it
22:45:12 <MikeSmith> ... the thing is of course you need to start the browser ahead of time  in some session that would allow it
22:45:53 <MikeSmith> [Simon reads from section of spec about generation of session IDs]
22:46:24 <MikeSmith> lukeis: do we not have an invalid-session error?
22:46:41 <MikeSmith> sstewart6: please raise a bug for that
22:46:48 <MikeSmith> JohnJansen: 6.5 Windos
22:47:02 <MikeSmith> ... we need a minimize Window command
22:47:06 <dannin> dannin has joined #testing
22:47:19 <MikeSmith> ... and where does the center fo the window
22:47:25 <MikeSmith> sstewart6: undefined
22:47:34 <MikeSmith> sstewart6: would you like for us to define it?
22:48:32 <MikeSmith> JohnJansen: so yes we would like to be able to test a minimized and then back to maximized
22:48:57 <MikeSmith> action: John to send some spec language for window minimize
22:49:11 <MikeSmith> JohnJansen: what is windowID?
22:49:27 <MikeSmith> sstewart6: unique handle used to refer to the window
22:50:02 <MikeSmith> jimevans: on Windows it assigns a GUID
22:50:25 <MikeSmith> JohnJansen: execute async script
22:50:41 <MikeSmith> ... we're not clear that it'S trying to do that execute script can't
22:50:48 <MikeSmith> sstewart6: avoids the need to do polling
22:51:08 <MikeSmith> ... just have a callback to get executed
22:52:37 <MikeSmith> MarcFisher: allows the JS event quite tcontinue
22:53:20 <MikeSmith> lukeis: we do this in the Selenium source
22:54:25 <MikeSmith> action: Luke to port Seleniium async script test to spec testsuite
22:54:46 <MikeSmith> MarcFisher: there's also somethingn used for testing Angular
22:55:02 <MikeSmith> JohnJansen: how does one click on something other than the center of an element?
22:55:11 <MikeSmith> MarcFisher: 14.2.1.1
22:55:30 <MikeSmith> ... takes a webelement and two numbers
22:56:18 <MikeSmith> JohnJansen: modal dialogs
22:56:35 <MikeSmith> ... looks like a lot of stuff has been added
22:57:35 <MikeSmith> JohnJansen: about not needing focus
22:57:58 <MikeSmith> sstewart6: depends on the implementation
22:59:30 <MikeSmith> sstewart6: strawman is you give the credentials at the start of session
23:00:04 <MikeSmith> ... I've not been able to get it work cleanly when I was experimenting
23:00:30 <MikeSmith> ... but we've gone 7 years without it, seems like we can move it to Level 2
23:00:47 <MikeSmith> JohnJansen: getElementText
23:01:01 <MikeSmith> ... does that still point to something nonexistent?
23:01:07 <MikeSmith> sstewart6: yeah you're right
23:01:21 <MikeSmith> ... dagnabbit
23:01:37 <sstewart6> Shoot
23:02:18 <MikeSmith> action: Add definition for getElementText to the appropriate section of spec
23:02:51 <MikeSmith> JohnJansen: can WebDriver find noscript elements?
23:02:58 <MikeSmith> sstewart6: yeah if it's in the DOM
23:03:39 <MikeSmith> JohnJansen: touch?
23:04:21 <MikeSmith> AutomatedTester: something we need to talk about,given that Touch Events is being replaced by Pointer Events
23:04:43 <sstewart6> I've added some agenda items for tomorrow: https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebDriver/2014-February-F2F
23:04:55 <MikeSmith> mdas: don't know about the order of events so it's not something that should be in teh spec
23:05:06 <MikeSmith> sstewart6: browser knows the order of events
23:05:23 <MikeSmith> AutomatedTester: activation triggers based on DOM Events spec
23:06:20 <MikeSmith> JohnJansen: no gesture?
23:06:32 <MikeSmith> sstewart6: multi-action supports it
23:07:26 <MikeSmith> AutomatedTester: there are differences in what a flick is across browsers
23:07:31 <sstewart6> We should kill "action_chain" in the notes
23:07:34 <sstewart6> "actions"
23:08:08 <MikeSmith> JohnJansen: can't write a gesture test that works in all browsers?
23:08:46 <MikeSmith> AutomatedTester: the EndPoint isn't there
23:08:46 <MikeSmith> Jo	so the right thing to do is the atomic action?
23:09:40 <MikeSmith> s/Jo/JohnJansen:
23:09:49 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
23:09:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/02/25-testing-minutes.html MikeSmith
23:10:48 <MikeSmith> sstewart6: anybody else have queries?
23:10:56 <mdas> lukeis: here's our TouchActions object (for single finger) https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=976807
23:10:57 <mdas> oops
23:11:00 <mdas> http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/testing/marionette/client/marionette/marionette.py#178
23:11:02 <MikeSmith> dannin: speed up execution
23:11:16 <mdas> and MultiActions(http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/testing/marionette/client/marionette/marionette.py#380)
23:11:30 <glenn> glenn has joined #testing
23:12:07 <MikeSmith> AutomatedTester: we should be doing things as fast as possible, and the client code [will need to manage timing]
23:12:43 <MikeSmith> s/speed up execution/speed of execution
23:12:57 <sstewart6> http://selenium.googlecode.com/git/docs/api/java/org/openqa/selenium/support/ui/Wait.html
23:13:09 <sstewart6> http://selenium.googlecode.com/git/docs/api/java/org/openqa/selenium/support/ui/ExpectedConditions.html
23:13:13 <sstewart6> Those are docs links
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23:16:01 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
23:16:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/02/25-testing-minutes.html MikeSmith
23:19:16 <sstewart6> One of the security chaps at work took a look at the fingerprinting part of the spec
23:19:20 <sstewart6> and then linked me to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil_bit
23:20:03 <sam> sam has joined #testing
23:21:58 <MikeSmith> funny that article lists Do Not Track in the see also
23:22:07 <MikeSmith> Topic: Conformance Suite
23:23:07 <sstewart6> https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/tree/master/webdriver
23:24:05 <MikeSmith> sstewart6: piecemeal and willy-nilly
23:24:29 <MikeSmith> ... describes how we are currently writing the conformance tests
23:24:56 <MikeSmith> lukeis: I remember hearing that each test must have its own web page
23:25:03 <wilhelm> https://github.com/operasoftware/presto-testo/tree/master/core/standards/wf1-watir2/interactive
23:25:17 <MikeSmith> wilhelm: those have some good exxamples
23:27:22 <MikeSmith> wilhelm: we should do things in such a way that it integrates with the conventions of existing w-p-t testsuite
23:34:21 <sstewart6> http://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2009/09/the_html5_drag.html
23:35:00 <sstewart6> That's why you need events at the OS level rather than just creating them on the DOM
23:39:34 <sstewart6> Action: add language clarifying that drag and drop between frames in different domains should (must?) be supported
23:40:59 <MikeSmith> action: Andreas TT to write some example tests for cases discussed at f2f, including handlers to add to wptserve
23:48:09 <MikeSmith> [discussion of how to enable running of tests without needing to pull in third-party open-source code]
23:51:12 <MikeSmith> lukeis: well if you're allowed to look at Apache2 code..
23:51:48 <MikeSmith> MarcFisher: I think we should have a separate implementation in the w-p-t repo would be good. Can be small
23:53:03 <ato> http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Legal/2008/04-testsuite-copyright.html
23:53:05 <MikeSmith> action: Marc to lead work on separate minimal implementation of spec for inclusion in w-p-t repo
23:53:48 <wilhelm> License of WPT: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/blob/master/CONTRIBUTING.md
23:53:52 <MikeSmith> lukeis: just a remote implementation?
23:53:56 <MikeSmith> MarcFisher: yeah
23:55:47 <MikeSmith> action: wilhelm to  work on making a small canonical set of tests that integrate with Marc's implementation