19:57:35 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aapi
19:57:35 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/02/25-aapi-irc
19:57:37 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
19:57:37 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aapi
19:57:39 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
19:57:39 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(AAPI)3:00PM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
19:57:40 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
19:57:40 <trackbot> Date: 25 February 2014
19:58:24 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(AAPI)3:00PM has now started
19:58:31 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
19:58:39 <clown> zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:58:39 <Zakim> +Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it
19:58:47 <clown> zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:58:47 <Zakim> ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:59:03 <clown> chair:  Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:59:12 <clown> agenda: this
19:59:21 <clown> agenda+ Having a core UAIG, one specific to HTML, and one to SVG. Also,  when to start edits to the UAIG 1.1 core document.
19:59:30 <clown> agenda+ ISSUE-645: Remove 'checkable' object attribute from aria-pressed mapping.
19:59:41 <clown> agenda+ ISSUE-481/ACTION-1368/ACTION-1369: (David, Cynthia) aria-live removal events should/must happen before object removal.
19:59:49 <Zakim> +joanie
19:59:52 <clown> agenda+ ISSUE-441/ACTION-1372: (Cynthia) Test case for incomplete use of aria-posinset/aria-setsize.
19:59:55 <bgaraventa1979> bgaraventa1979 has joined #aapi
20:00:02 <clown> agenda+ ISSUE-618/ACTION-1371: (Cynthia) Investigate how IE implements item de-selection in single selection container.
20:00:10 <clown> agenda+ ISSUE-635/ACTION-1372: (Cynthia) Create test case for rowgroup role.
20:00:22 <clown> agenda+ ISSUE-644: (All) Update ATK/AT-SPI mapping for aria-hidden="true" to reflect elements should not be exposed/mapped.
20:00:32 <clown> agenda+ 1.1 ISSUES and ACTIONS: (All)  Start with ISSUE-540, https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/23
20:00:42 <clown> agenda+ be done.
20:00:48 <clown> zakim, agenda?
20:00:48 <Zakim> I see 9 items remaining on the agenda:
20:00:49 <Zakim> 1. Having a core UAIG, one specific to HTML, and one to SVG. Also,  when to start edits to the UAIG 1.1 core document. [from clown]
20:00:49 <Zakim> 2. ISSUE-645: Remove 'checkable' object attribute from aria-pressed mapping. [from clown]
20:00:49 <Zakim> 3. ISSUE-481/ACTION-1368/ACTION-1369: (David, Cynthia) aria-live removal events should/must happen before object removal. [from clown]
20:00:50 <Zakim> 4. ISSUE-441/ACTION-1372: (Cynthia) Test case for incomplete use of aria-posinset/aria-setsize. [from clown]
20:00:52 <Zakim> 5. ISSUE-618/ACTION-1371: (Cynthia) Investigate how IE implements item de-selection in single selection container. [from clown]
20:00:52 <Zakim> 6. ISSUE-635/ACTION-1372: (Cynthia) Create test case for rowgroup role. [from clown]
20:00:52 <Zakim> 7. ISSUE-644: (All) Update ATK/AT-SPI mapping for aria-hidden="true" to reflect elements should not be exposed/mapped. [from clown]
20:00:52 <Zakim> 8. 1.1 ISSUES and ACTIONS: (All)  Start with ISSUE-540, https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/23 [from clown]
20:00:56 <Zakim> 9. be done. [from clown]
20:01:36 <Zakim> + +1.650.773.aaaa
20:02:47 <bgaraventa1979> Bryan Garaventa
20:03:06 <clown> zakim, aaaa has Bryan_Garaventa
20:03:06 <Zakim> +Bryan_Garaventa; got it
20:03:21 <clown> zakim, bgaraventa1979 is Bryan_Garaventa
20:03:21 <Zakim> sorry, clown, I do not recognize a party named 'bgaraventa1979'
20:03:34 <clown> zakim, Bryan_Garaventa is bgaraventa1979
20:03:34 <Zakim> sorry, clown, I do not recognize a party named 'Bryan_Garaventa'
20:03:54 <joanie> Zakim, I am Joanmarie_Diggs
20:03:54 <Zakim> sorry, joanie, I do not see a party named 'Joanmarie_Diggs'
20:04:26 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aapi
20:04:35 <clown> zakim, who's on the phone?
20:04:35 <Zakim> On the phone I see Joseph_Scheuhammer, joanie, +1.650.773.aaaa
20:04:36 <Zakim> +1.650.773.aaaa has Bryan_Garaventa
20:04:46 <richardschwerdtfeger> what is the call in passcode?
20:04:49 <bgaraventa1979> zakim, i m bryan_garaventa
20:04:49 <Zakim> I don't understand 'i m bryan_garaventa', bgaraventa1979
20:04:52 <clown> zakim, joanie is Joanmarie_Diggs
20:04:52 <Zakim> +Joanmarie_Diggs; got it
20:05:04 <clown> richardschwerdtfeger:  2274#
20:05:27 <Zakim> +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
20:06:44 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
20:06:50 <clown> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-1.1/
20:06:57 <bgaraventa1979> zakim, i am Bryan_Garaventa
20:06:57 <Zakim> sorry, bgaraventa1979, I do not see a party named 'Bryan_Garaventa'
20:07:11 <cyns> cyns has joined #aapi
20:07:30 <clown> zakim, who's here?
20:07:30 <Zakim> On the phone I see Joseph_Scheuhammer, Joanmarie_Diggs, +1.650.773.aaaa, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, [Microsoft]
20:07:32 <Zakim> +1.650.773.aaaa has Bryan_Garaventa
20:07:32 <Zakim> On IRC I see cyns, richardschwerdtfeger, bgaraventa1979, Zakim, RRSAgent, davidb, clown, MichaelC, joanie, trackbot
20:08:37 <joanie> scribenick: joanie
20:09:00 <joanie> Zakim, take up agenda
20:09:00 <Zakim> I don't understand 'take up agenda', joanie
20:09:04 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 1
20:09:04 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Having a core UAIG, one specific to HTML, and one to SVG. Also,  when to start edits to the UAIG 1.1 core document." taken up [from clown]
20:09:30 <joanie> RS: We have an outline we were going to do....
20:09:52 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/wiki/Outline_Core_User_Agent_Implementation_Guide#Core_User_Agent_Implementation_Guide
20:10:11 <joanie> RS: The bulk of the 1.1 Implementation Guide would go into the core
20:10:29 <joanie> RS: What we can do is create implementation guides for HTML 5.1 and SVG 2 based on the core
20:10:43 <joanie> RS: Instead of having to go back and duplicate role mappings, we can refer back
20:10:54 <joanie> RS: There are features in the host language we'll have to define there
20:11:03 <joanie> RS: Examples are name and description computations
20:11:43 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/struct.html#implicit-aria-semantics
20:11:46 <joanie> RS: In the document structure section of the specification, we define how ARIA integrates into the specification
20:11:54 <joanie> RS: We also have a new host language semantics section
20:12:10 <joanie> RS: In each of these we have a defined role and how it gets mapped into the accessibility API
20:12:32 <joanie> RS: The other thing we are doing, for those elements which can be mapped, we try to say they have a presentation role unless something else gets added to them to cause them to be mapped
20:12:51 <joanie> RS: Because everything in SVG is persistent, we don't want to map everything to the tree unless we have to
20:13:06 <joanie> RS: When do we create a role in the accessibility tree is going to be very important
20:13:47 <richardschwerdtfeger> presentation role provided no associated ‘title’ element, ‘desc’ element, ‘aria-label’ attribute, ‘aria-labelledby’ attribute, or ‘aria-describedby’ attribute; otherwise, group role
20:14:28 <joanie> RS: Beyond that, there are no restrictions
20:15:04 <joanie> RS: If you put some sort of text inside a circle (e.g. title, label) it would get mapped to group.
20:15:13 <joanie> RS: We are going to be defining host language semantics
20:15:23 <joanie> RS: We can then point to the core specification
20:15:33 <joanie> RS: The HTML and SVG DOM stuff are all getting merged
20:15:37 <joanie> RS: EVen the event handlers
20:15:49 <joanie> RS: Other interesting things about SVG are
20:16:00 <joanie> RS: You can embed an iframe in SVG, also a canvas element
20:16:06 <joanie> RS: I have to think about what that means
20:16:13 <joanie> RS: Is the fallback HTML or SVG?
20:16:25 <joanie> JS: So the canvas element is the same?
20:16:26 <clown> https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/embedded.html#CanvasElement
20:16:47 <joanie> RS: That's correct.
20:17:00 <joanie> RS: The good thing is we have one DOM and a common set of attributes.
20:17:08 <joanie> RS: The question I have is, does that make sense?
20:17:23 <joanie> RS: Are we going to take ARIA 1.1 and add it to the core?
20:17:25 <joanie> JS: Yes
20:17:51 <joanie> JS: We already have a promise to the GNOME Accessibility Team
20:17:55 <joanie> JS: I want to get that going
20:18:04 <joanie> JS: That draft (ARIA 1.1) could start out as the core
20:18:15 <joanie> JS: Then you could start taking things out or whatever you need to do
20:18:27 <joanie> RS: I like the way the HTML and SVG specs expand and collapse elements
20:18:34 <joanie> RS: Are you going to do that?
20:18:40 <joanie> JS: I wanted to get that done for 1.0
20:19:08 <joanie> JS: But the script doesn't work with the table in the UAIG
20:19:18 <joanie> JS: The table markup is slightly different
20:19:51 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-html-aapi-20120329/
20:20:24 <joanie> CS: (Confirms what Jospeh stated)
20:20:37 <joanie> JS: The document you put in Rich looks like what I was refering to
20:20:45 <joanie> RS: I can expand them but not collapse them
20:20:52 <joanie> JS: I should ask Jason about this
20:21:06 <joanie> RS: I don't think you can expand or collapse them with the keyboard
20:21:49 <joanie> (Discussion on how there is an option at the top to toggle all)
20:21:59 <joanie> JS: I think they are using re-spec(?sp)
20:22:15 <joanie> JS: You write the spec with staright HTML in one file
20:22:28 <joanie> JS: And you include this re-spec javascript and it does all the formatting, etc.
20:22:35 <joanie> JS: What we do for the ARIA documents...
20:23:00 <joanie> JS: We have a core document and an XSLT processor
20:23:21 <joanie> JS: And it puts everythign together, adds table of contents, creates a full HTML document
20:23:28 <joanie> RS: Does anyone have the source for it?
20:23:33 <joanie> CS: You'll have to ask Jason
20:23:50 <joanie> JS: I have the javascript. It's in the document itself.
20:23:56 <joanie> RS: We need to get the original
20:24:04 <joanie> JS: It's probably in W3C's mercurial repo
20:24:14 <joanie> CS: Jason will know and Steve Faulkner will know
20:24:34 <joanie> (Discussion about this might not being the right/same document)
20:24:41 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://www.w3.org/TR/html-aapi/
20:24:42 <clown> http://rawgithub.com/w3c/html-api-map/master/index.html
20:25:12 <joanie> RS: I didn't know you could put W3C docs on github
20:25:19 <joanie> CS: Anyway, email Jason and Steve
20:25:26 <joanie> JS: This one works with the keyboard
20:25:32 <joanie> RS: We definitely want this one
20:25:49 <joanie> RS: So who is going to be the editor of the HTML 5.1 one?
20:25:59 <joanie> CS: I just asked for that to be put on the Task Force agenda
20:26:08 <joanie> CS: Steve doesn't have time, Jason doesn't have time
20:26:19 <joanie> CS: We need people
20:26:45 <joanie> RS: I'll talk to Steve about this
20:26:53 <joanie> RS: We need to figure out who is going to edit this
20:27:03 <joanie> RS: I don't have bandwidth for this. I might to SVG
20:27:15 <joanie> CS: I have bandwidth to provide details about how IE does things
20:27:23 <joanie> JS: I have bandwidth to work on the core right now
20:28:05 <joanie> RS: Will we have the UIA for 1.1?
20:28:15 <joanie> CS: I cannot answer that yet
20:28:42 <joanie> RS: They have a single table too
20:28:59 <joanie> JS: When I looked at it you gave it the ID of the table element and it would do that table
20:29:05 <joanie> JS: So you could do it for multiple tables
20:29:13 <joanie> RS: Given that most of this will be in the core spec....
20:29:19 <joanie> RS: This should go in the core, right?
20:29:23 <joanie> JS: The HTML one?
20:29:30 <joanie> RS: The table mapping for the APIs
20:29:40 <joanie> RS: What they have here is like anchor
20:29:45 <joanie> RS: It goes to a link role
20:29:57 <joanie> JS: To you want this anchor list to be in the core?
20:29:59 <joanie> RS: No
20:30:07 <joanie> RS: You are going to have an equivalent in the core spec
20:30:31 <joanie> RS: All the API mappings will be
20:30:34 <joanie> JS: What they are now
20:30:41 <joanie> RS: But it wouldn't be in the HTML spec
20:30:53 <joanie> CS: It would be in the HTML mapping guide because HTML and ARIA aren't the same thing
20:31:06 <joanie> JS: I think Rich is saying you'd put a link to the core
20:31:31 <joanie> (Discussion on specific examples to clarify the point)
20:31:47 <joanie> CS: I disagree that mapping from HTML to accessibility APIs should have to go through ARIA
20:31:53 <joanie> RS: But that is what we are doing
20:31:59 <joanie> RS: This is needed for SVG
20:32:09 <joanie> RS: I don't know if we'd call it "ARIA"
20:32:28 <joanie> RS: But it doesn't make sense to duplicate it
20:32:34 <joanie> RS: It makes sense to have it in one place
20:32:45 <joanie> CS: But if I'm implementing HTML, why do I have to look in two specs?
20:32:52 <joanie> RS: Trying to keep them in sync is a nightmare
20:33:07 <joanie> RS: That is why we want to have one core spec that define things in terms of ARIA symantics
20:33:29 <joanie> RS: What we want to do is have a core implementation guide that defines the mapping for those symantics in it
20:33:38 <joanie> RS: We'd refer back to the core spec where we can
20:33:52 <joanie> RS: But not with things like name computation
20:34:17 <joanie> CS: What about places where HTML and something else has a mapping, but ARIA does not?
20:34:23 <joanie> RS: Then we'd have to take the HTML version
20:34:53 <joanie> JS: You could populate the HTML version by pulling the mapping out of the core, e.g. via AJAX
20:35:06 <joanie> JS: Use the UAIG core as the database
20:35:11 <joanie> RS: Yeah, you could do that
20:35:23 <joanie> JS: As you load the mapping table, it fetches content (done in the browser)
20:35:42 <joanie> CS: One of the things I'd like to do is see what features are missing from my API
20:35:53 <joanie> CS: Having a place where they are all together would be helpful
20:36:02 <joanie> RS: Did you file the bugs after we went through CR?
20:36:06 <joanie> CS: Yes
20:36:37 <joanie> CS: I want to be able to explain both to IE and authors is the relation between HTML and UIA
20:36:47 <joanie> CS: The levels of indirection makes that harder
20:36:57 <joanie> RS: I don't think there are that many levels of indirection
20:37:08 <joanie> CS: Having a view that puts this together would be very helpful
20:37:18 <joanie> CS: I think the script Jason has would be able to do that
20:39:02 <joanie> (more discussion about the above)
20:39:24 <joanie> CS: Are you ok with us owning this html piece as well
20:39:33 <joanie> JS: Who is "we"?
20:39:42 <joanie> JS: I'm not able to be the editor
20:39:54 <joanie> CS: I'm trying to get the same level of productivity?
20:40:02 <joanie> JS: Would it be part of this call?
20:40:08 <joanie> CS: (confirms)
20:40:19 <joanie> CS: We'd have to find another editor
20:40:26 <joanie> JS: We can ask
20:40:35 <joanie> RS: I'm not sure if David will have time
20:40:46 <joanie> RS: It sounds like we need a call with Jason
20:41:07 <joanie> CS: I got some feedback from Jason about where things stand now and his availability
20:41:33 <joanie> CS: There was a timezone issue in the past (e.g. Toronto, Siberia, New Zealand)
20:42:03 <joanie> RS: So we just need editors for HTML 5 and the other one
20:42:12 <joanie> JS: I'm willing to try to bring the HTML 5 issues to this call here
20:42:21 <joanie> JS: But I am afraid we will run out of time
20:42:24 <joanie> JS: We can try
20:42:34 <joanie> RS: We will have to coordinate things like name computation
20:42:43 <joanie> JS: I think 90% of name computation is core
20:42:52 <joanie> RS: It's going to be different for HTML 5 and SVG
20:43:03 <joanie> RS: (gives example)
20:44:10 <clown> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation/#mapping_additional_nd
20:44:34 <joanie> RS: It's called placeholder
20:44:46 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://rawgithub.com/w3c/html-api-map/master/index.html#input-type-text-input-type-password-input-type-search-input-type-tel-input-type-url-and-textarea-element
20:45:13 <joanie> CS: How does that figure into name calculation
20:45:24 <joanie> CS: It's an aria-hint as far as I'm concerned
20:45:41 <joanie> RS: (points out mobile use case)
20:46:01 <joanie> CS: If there's not another label, the placeholder would go into the name
20:46:13 <clown> <input type="text" placeholder="Search" value=""/>
20:46:20 <joanie> CS: If an image has both an alt and a title, then the alt is the name and the title is the description
20:46:26 <joanie> CS: It would be similar with placeholder
20:46:35 <joanie> RS: But this doesn't tell with the text before and after
20:46:56 <clown> <input type="text" placeholder="Type search text here" value=""/>
20:47:16 <davidb> davidb has joined #aapi
20:47:31 <joanie> JS: Is the above how placeholder works?
20:47:38 <joanie> CS: Yes
20:47:46 <joanie> RS: It's meant to be for the label
20:48:00 <joanie> RS: (looks for form example)
20:48:55 <joanie> CS: In the example from the HTML spec it's got "sample text"
20:49:06 <joanie> RS: Where they really started using this first is Apple
20:49:26 <joanie> RS: You'd put "city" and when you started typing that text would go away
20:49:38 <cyns> The html spec example says
20:49:40 <cyns> <fieldset>
20:50:44 <joanie> BG: Is the placeholder text supposed to disappear when it gets focus?
20:50:50 <joanie> BG: Or when you start typing?
20:50:52 <cyns>  <p><label>Name: <input type="text" name="fullname" placeholder="John Ratzenberger"></label></p>
20:51:08 <joanie> RS: Basically what happens is that they put the text label in the input field as grey text
20:51:12 <joanie> RS: This is to save space
20:51:19 <joanie> RS: Then you don't need to put an actual label
20:51:28 <joanie> RS: When you start typing, the grey text goes away
20:51:48 <joanie> CS: And sometimes that's a bad experience for sighted users too
20:52:03 <joanie> RS: I'm not trying to defend it; I'm just describing what it's been used for
20:52:22 <joanie> CS: (Refers to text example from the spec she pasted in above)
20:52:42 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://www.w3schools.com/tags/att_input_placeholder.asp
20:52:50 <joanie> RS: They put first name and last name
20:53:03 <joanie> RS: (said in reference to the example he pasted in)
20:53:09 <joanie> JS: They're trying to save space
20:53:23 <joanie> RS: That is what I was saying
20:53:30 <joanie> JS: You cannot select the text
20:53:39 <joanie> RS: It's considered a vanishing, static label
20:53:58 <joanie> (More discussion about this user experience and use cases)
20:54:15 <joanie> RS: The fact that it's in the name computation must give it credence
20:54:23 <joanie> CS: It's similar to the title attribute
20:54:36 <joanie> JS: Firefox is setting the accessible name to the placeholder text in that case
20:54:54 <joanie> CS: That's what we'd do too, I think. But it's the name of last resort
20:55:41 <joanie> CS: Before there was placeholder, this was done via value and CSS
20:56:44 <joanie> RS: The question is, do you put this in a hint and also in a name if nothing else is there?
20:57:04 <joanie> JS: James Craig is writing the precedence as one of his 1.1 tasks
20:58:59 <joanie> RS: I guess I can be the SVG editor, but I'd like to get some eyes on this
20:59:13 <joanie> CS: Are the HTML working group going to be ok pulling this into core?
20:59:31 <joanie> RS: I don't know if we've formalized it, but all the editors working on that spec agreed this is the way to go
20:59:40 <joanie> RS: We haven't agreed on who is going to work on what yet.
21:00:09 <joanie> JS: To wrap up....
21:00:21 <joanie> JS: In order to do anything we (or I) need help from Michael
21:00:27 <joanie> JS: To find out how to fork the documents
21:00:39 <joanie> JS: And how to do this work without interfering with what he is doing
21:00:44 <joanie> JS: Otherwise we are stalled
21:00:50 <joanie> RS: Was he supposed to be on the call?
21:01:08 <cyns> CS: as long as there is a way to see all, I am ok with breaking this into core/html/svg.  We have had trouble with staffing and progress on the HTML doc.  pulling things into core would make html - api mapping smaller, which might help with staffing.
21:01:08 <joanie> JS: I was hoping he would be. Before Christmas he was. Since then he's been busy.
21:01:24 <joanie> JS: I will ask him how we can go ahead.
21:01:34 <joanie> RS: I am going to send him a note now.
21:01:45 <Zakim> -Rich_Schwerdtfeger
21:01:54 <joanie> JS: Let's call it the end of meeting.
21:01:55 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
21:01:59 <Zakim> - +1.650.773.aaaa
21:02:41 <joanie> Zakim, part
21:02:41 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were Joseph_Scheuhammer, Bryan_Garaventa, Joanmarie_Diggs, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, [Microsoft]
21:02:41 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aapi
21:02:54 <joanie> regrets: David_Bolter
21:03:21 <joanie> RRSAgent, stop