18:00:13 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
18:00:13 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/02/24-aria-irc
18:00:15 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
18:00:15 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aria
18:00:17 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
18:00:17 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see WAI_PFWG(ARIA)1:00PM already started
18:00:18 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
18:00:18 <trackbot> Date: 24 February 2014
18:00:20 <richardschwerdtfeger> chair: Rich
18:00:31 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, make log public
18:00:45 <richardschwerdtfeger> meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Caucus
18:01:26 <Zakim> +joanie
18:01:35 <clown> clown has joined #aria
18:01:44 <Zakim> +[SAP]
18:02:05 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
18:02:15 <clown> Zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:02:15 <Zakim> +Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it
18:02:21 <clown> zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:02:21 <Zakim> ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:02:25 <Zakim> +James_Nurthen
18:02:50 <clown> \o/
18:03:03 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Feb/0071.html
18:03:18 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #aria
18:03:32 <jamesn> agenda?
18:04:23 <Zakim> +??P11
18:04:26 <Zakim> +Cynthia_Shelly
18:04:26 <MichaelC> zakim, ??P11 is Michael_Cooper
18:04:28 <Zakim> +Michael_Cooper; got it
18:04:41 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria
18:05:15 <Zakim> +Jon_Gunderson
18:06:47 <clown> #aapi
18:06:51 <clown> richardschwerdtfeger:  ^
18:07:36 <clown> 78&*&!!!!&!
18:07:45 <Zakim> +[Apple]
18:08:44 <MichaelC> ack me
18:09:00 <MichaelC> zakim, mute me
18:09:00 <Zakim> Michael_Cooper should now be muted
18:09:01 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #aria
18:09:20 <jcraig> Zakim, who is on the phone?
18:09:22 <Zakim> On the phone I see Rich_Schwerdtfeger, +1.512.659.aaaa, ??P2, joanie, [SAP], Joseph_Scheuhammer, James_Nurthen, Michael_Cooper (muted), Cynthia_Shelly, Jon_Gunderson, [Apple]
18:09:39 <jcraig> Zakim, Apple has jcraig
18:09:39 <Zakim> +jcraig; got it
18:09:39 <MichaelC> zakim, SAP is Stefan_Schnabel
18:09:41 <Zakim> +Stefan_Schnabel; got it
18:09:50 <MichaelC> zakim, ??P2 is Janina_Sajka
18:09:50 <Zakim> +Janina_Sajka; got it
18:09:54 <jcraig> scribe: jcraig
18:09:59 <MichaelC> ack me
18:10:04 <jcraig> TOPIC: Rec Status
18:10:29 <jcraig> RS: 26 member votes in support
18:10:34 <jcraig> RS: Working on Mozilla
18:10:55 <MichaelC> zakim, aaaa is Susann_Keohane
18:10:55 <Zakim> +Susann_Keohane; got it
18:11:36 <jcraig> MC: Judy wants more support from Accessibility orgs that are Members
18:11:42 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/33280/pr-WAI-ARIA1-UAIG1/results
18:12:07 <jcraig> RS: Results for Membership voting for ARIA Rec status: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/33280/pr-WAI-ARIA1-UAIG1/results
18:13:33 <jcraig> RS: Anything else needed for Rec status?
18:13:53 <jcraig> MC: Need to formally approve the RDF comment from Ivan
18:14:44 <MichaelC> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/comments/details?comment_id=449
18:14:46 <jcraig> MC: Do we want to use IRI as he suggested or URI as rest of document?
18:15:35 <jcraig> Quoting: What you really want to say, I guess, is that the value is an IRI or a blank node (ie, not a literal). Your current specification, actually, does not refer to a blank node, so I guess it becomes very simple: the value of that property is an IRI. That is it. (And it is in line with the fact that all those properties are defined as object properties in the RDF vocabulary file. I realize you refer to URI-s and not IRI-s in the spec. I do not know if it is an
18:15:35 <jcraig> issue if you exchange that to IRI; if it is, you can probably ignore it and use URI-s.
18:16:31 <jcraig> JS: Just talking about RDF, but the change to IRI may affect more.
18:16:45 <clown> http://www.w3.org/TR/2014/PR-wai-aria-20140206/roles#requiredState
18:17:04 <clown> It's used in "Supported States and Properties" section.
18:17:07 <jcraig> MC: Term URI only used in RDF ref, so probably not problematic to change it to IRI.
18:17:42 <jcraig> MC: Used in 6 places
18:19:50 <jcraig> MC: IRI is the international version that includes use of non-ASCII chars
18:20:44 <jcraig> ACTION: Cooper to change URI to IRI and add reference to IRI docs/spec
18:20:45 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1388 - Change uri to iri and add reference to iri docs/spec [on Michael Cooper - due 2014-03-03].
18:20:59 <jcraig> RESOLUTION: Cooper to change URI to IRI and add reference to IRI docs/spec
18:21:27 <jcraig> RESOLUTION: Accept Ivan's comment and make appropriate changes.
18:22:00 <jcraig> ACTION-1388?
18:22:00 <trackbot> ACTION-1388 -- Michael Cooper to Change uri to iri and add reference to iri docs/spec -- due 2014-03-03 -- OPEN
18:22:00 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1388
18:26:33 <jcraig> (discussing editorial spec issues)
18:28:53 <jcraig> RS: Judy wants testimonials from people for CSUN timeframe
18:29:34 <jcraig> MC: Yes, we need to finish drafting the press release that the testimonials will be included in.
18:29:48 <jcraig> MC: Likely, end of week.
18:31:46 <jcraig> TOPIC: ARIA 1.1 aria-hint/desc/tooltip/help
18:31:50 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
18:32:03 <clown> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Feb/0076.html
18:32:52 <jcraig> ISSUE-406?
18:32:52 <trackbot> ISSUE-406 -- Proposal for new aria-hint/help/tooltip property. (Previously proposed as @aria-help) -- open
18:32:52 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/406
18:35:14 <clown> <span role="button" aria-label="Back" aria-describedby="desc1"
18:35:14 <clown> aria-tooltip="Go back one page; pull down to show history">
18:35:14 <clown> ...
18:35:14 <clown> <span id="desc1">Activate to go back one page, or invoke a history
18:35:14 <clown> menu.</span>
18:35:27 <clown> or, rather:
18:35:31 <clown> <span role="button" aria-label="Back" aria-describedby="desc1"
18:35:31 <clown> aria-hint="Go back one page; pull down to show history">
18:35:31 <clown> ...
18:35:31 <clown> <span id="desc1">Activate to go back one page, or invoke a history
18:35:31 <clown> menu.</span>
18:35:38 <jcraig> Clown: How does description fit into APIs
18:36:21 <jcraig> CS: AccDescription is outdated and deprecated, we're trying to move away from it. So I'd like to rework ARIA's reliance on "descriptions"
18:36:43 <jcraig> RS: I think "describedby" should override hints?
18:36:50 <jcraig> Q+
18:37:14 <jcraig> CS: I'd rather add a new API property to support description properly
18:37:57 <jcraig> RS: ??? We can't suggest UAs render an ARIA based tooltip?
18:38:40 <jcraig> ack me
18:39:01 <richardschwerdtfeger> s/override hints/override hints to be consistent with aria-labelledby overriding aria-label/
18:39:10 <jamesn> We should look at all the text properties we associate with text fields, for example, and come up with an overall strategy rather than just tacking extra things on
18:41:05 <jcraig> Issue-406?
18:41:05 <trackbot> Issue-406 -- Proposal for new aria-hint/help/tooltip property. (Previously proposed as @aria-help) -- open
18:41:05 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/406
18:42:40 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/406
18:42:42 <jcraig> SS: describedby gives more info about context or describes what is on screen, but hint provides instructions for controls
18:42:59 <Zakim> -Cynthia_Shelly
18:43:28 <clown> +1
18:43:35 <Zakim> -Jon_Gunderson
18:43:39 <jcraig> RS: Like the name aria-hint?
18:43:40 <jcraig> +1
18:43:42 <joanie_> +1 for hint
18:43:45 <richardschwerdtfeger> +1
18:43:49 <Stefan> +1
18:44:31 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+
18:44:47 <Zakim> +Jon_Gunderson
18:44:49 <jongund> 1+
18:45:10 <Zakim> +Cynthia_Shelly
18:45:17 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
18:45:39 <jcraig> SS: I think we should suggest UAs expose ARIA values in the mainstream user interface
18:46:14 <clown> q+ to say that developers generally like the fact that aria doesn't change behaviour.
18:46:29 <jcraig> CS: We (Microsoft) want ARIA to change browser behavior, too.
18:46:55 <jcraig> Q+ to say that should be in the HTML ARIA mapping spec
18:47:09 <jcraig> (can't understand Stefan)
18:47:18 <richardschwerdtfeger> ach richardschwerdtfeger
18:49:05 <jcraig> SS: I think it should be part of UAIG 1.1 to require UAs expose certain ARIA properties in mainstream user agents
18:49:33 <jcraig> (uses @longdesc in Firefox context menu as a success story)
18:50:30 <jcraig> ACTION: Cynthia to gather more information about secondary information (desc, tooltip, etc)
18:50:30 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1389 - Gather more information about secondary information (desc, tooltip, etc) [on Cynthia Shelly - due 2014-03-03].
18:50:43 <jcraig> q?
18:50:54 <jcraig> ack ri?
18:50:58 <jcraig> ack ri
18:51:01 <jcraig> ack jo
18:51:01 <Zakim> Joseph_Scheuhammer, you wanted to say that developers generally like the fact that aria doesn't change behaviour.
18:52:28 <jcraig> Clown: Haven't made up my mind about whether ARIA should change default behavior. We recommend devs use ARIA and they think it requires major changes and UI diffs
18:52:36 <jcraig> ack me
18:52:36 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to say that should be in the HTML ARIA mapping spec
18:52:43 <clown> sribenick:  clown
18:52:49 <clown> scribenick:  clown
18:53:47 <clown> Clown:  And web developers express their relie when we tell them that aria doesn't change behaviour of UAs.
18:54:19 <jamesn> +1 to the retrofit case
18:54:28 <clown> Clown:  so, we should tread carefully here in terms of adding behaviour for aria.
18:54:34 <clown> scribenick:  jcraig
18:56:41 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
18:57:08 <jcraig> SS: I think it shouldn't be directly exposed, but maybe through a keyboard shortcut?
18:59:25 <richardschwerdtfeger> Action: jcraig to add aria-hint to ARIA 1.1 as related to issue 406
18:59:25 <jcraig> CS: retrofit use case is one use, but there is a new dev use case, too. I think we should discuss exposing some ARIA attrs natively in ARIA 2.0 though, not 1.1
18:59:25 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1390 - Add aria-hint to aria 1.1 as related to issue 406 [on James Craig - due 2014-03-03].
18:59:41 <jcraig> action-1390?
18:59:41 <trackbot> action-1390 -- James Craig to Add aria-hint to aria 1.1 as related to issue 406 -- due 2014-03-03 -- OPEN
18:59:41 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1390
18:59:43 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/435
19:00:15 <jcraig> issue-435?
19:00:15 <trackbot> issue-435 -- Consider role="text" to expose elements (and contents) as static text node -- open
19:00:15 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/435
19:02:22 <jamesn> +1 to staticText
19:02:42 <jcraig> text is static by default
19:02:51 <clown> <span role="statictext" ...
19:04:31 <clown> <button role="text">Go</button>
19:05:17 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+
19:06:08 <jcraig> SS: Would role="text" remove basic functionality like click and focus?
19:06:50 <jcraig> JC: No, ARIA role does not remove functionality, and we can make it an author error to use this on certain interactive controls.
19:08:07 <richardschwerdtfeger> Action: jcraig add role="text" to the ARIA 1.1 spec referencing issue-435
19:08:07 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1391 - Add role="text" to the aria 1.1 spec referencing issue-435 [on James Craig - due 2014-03-03].
19:08:29 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/446
19:08:38 <jcraig> issue-446?
19:08:38 <trackbot> issue-446 -- proposing new switch role (subclass of checkbox) that represents an on/off state -- open
19:08:38 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/446
19:10:38 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
19:11:33 <clown> for the record:  IA2 has IA2_ROLE_TOGGLE_BUTTON, and ATK has ROLE_TOGGLE_BUTTON
19:11:53 <Zakim> -Cynthia_Shelly
19:13:23 <Zakim> +Cynthia_Shelly
19:14:14 <jcraig> ss: like the idea because this accurately describes the interface. for collaboration reasons, it's difficult for sighted users to to collaborate with blind users if they are describing different controls
19:14:28 <jcraig> RS: Any opposition to switch role?
19:14:48 <richardschwerdtfeger> Action: jcraig add a switch role to ARIA 1.1 in response to issue-446
19:14:48 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1392 - Add a switch role to aria 1.1 in response to issue-446 [on James Craig - due 2014-03-03].
19:14:53 <jcraig> action-1391?
19:14:53 <trackbot> action-1391 -- James Craig to Add role="text" to the aria 1.1 spec referencing issue-435 -- due 2014-03-03 -- OPEN
19:14:53 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1391
19:14:55 <jcraig> action-1392?
19:14:55 <trackbot> action-1392 -- James Craig to Add a switch role to aria 1.1 in response to issue-446 -- due 2014-03-03 -- OPEN
19:14:55 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1392
19:15:14 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/579
19:16:26 <clown> scribenick:  clown
19:16:42 <clown> JN:  While I don't think it's global, it should be extended to other roles.
19:16:45 <jcraig> issue-579?
19:16:45 <trackbot> issue-579 -- Allow aria-orientation as a global property -- raised
19:16:45 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/579
19:16:48 <clown> RS:  examples?
19:16:55 <clown> JN:  Org charts
19:17:05 <clown> JN: They are tree widgets, but on their side.
19:17:19 <clown> JN: So up and down now map to left and right.
19:17:36 <clown> JN:  Tabs can also be vertical.  And so can a toolbar.
19:17:46 <clown> RS:  I'm going to bring up the widgets.
19:17:52 <clown> JN:  Those examples are in the issue.
19:17:56 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/roles#widget_roles
19:18:08 <clown> JN:  There may be other use cases.
19:18:30 <clown> CS:  I wouldn't want it global, but extending to more widgets would be useful.
19:18:44 <clown> JN:  I think it's the composite widgets that are more likely.
19:19:02 <clown> note:  toolbar isn't a composite....
19:19:09 <clown> RS:  List box?
19:19:16 <clown> JN:  I don't think so.
19:19:37 <clown> JC:  There are lists of drives that are horizontal during an install.
19:19:46 <clown> JC:  <other examples>
19:20:04 <clown> RS:  <lists other widgets>
19:20:23 <clown> JC:  Would this apply to pivot tables as well?
19:20:38 <clown> JN:  I think we need another property there, and another discussion.
19:20:44 <clown> JC:  Okay.
19:21:05 <clown> RS:  Toolbar is another candidate.
19:21:20 <clown> CS:  I don't think any of the landmarks or document structure.
19:21:35 <clown> JC:  We have a default value of horizontal for aria-orientation.
19:21:50 <clown> JC:  Makes sense for most of the controls we currently use it on.  E.g. sliders.
19:22:22 <clown> JC:  If we extend the application, we should make the default 'undefined'.
19:22:34 <clown> CS:  Can we have different default values for each control?
19:22:51 <clown> JC:  We can.  Menus are vertical in most cases.
19:23:17 <clown> JC: But we shouldn't make a default that is inherited.
19:23:31 <clown> CS:  Can we separate the inherited from the default for the role?
19:23:33 <clown> JC:  Yes.
19:23:48 <clown> RS:  Do you have enough from the minutes to enumerate the roles.
19:23:58 <clown> JC:  I thought you were writing that list down.
19:24:02 <clown> RS:  I can do that right now.
19:24:52 <richardschwerdtfeger> New Roles to apply aria-orientation: combo box, listbox, menu, menubar, radio group, tablist, tree, tree grid, toolbar
19:25:21 <clown> Clown:  What about a table of contents/
19:25:33 <clown> RS:  no such role.
19:25:41 <clown> Clown:  that is "navigation".
19:25:55 <clown> CS:  wouldn't that be a toolbar in the navigation.
19:26:09 <clown> JC:  It doesn't have to have a toolbar.
19:26:14 <Zakim> -Michael_Cooper
19:26:28 <clown> JC:  combo box default verical?
19:26:39 <clown> JC:  listbox vertical
19:26:48 <clown> RS:  radio group undefined
19:27:44 <jcraig> combobox (vertical)
19:27:44 <jcraig> listbox (vertical)
19:27:46 <jcraig> menu (vertical)
19:27:47 <jcraig> menubar (horizontal)
19:27:49 <jcraig> radio group (undefined)
19:27:50 <jcraig> tablist (horizontal)
19:27:52 <jcraig> tree (vertical)
19:27:53 <jcraig> tree grid (undefined)
19:27:53 <jcraig> toolbar (horizontal)
19:28:50 <richardschwerdtfeger> Action: jcraig add aria-orientation to additional ARIA roles per 2-24-14 ARIA Caucus wrt. Issue-579
19:28:50 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1393 - Add aria-orientation to additional aria roles per 2-24-14 aria caucus wrt. issue-579 [on James Craig - due 2014-03-03].
19:29:05 <Zakim> -Cynthia_Shelly
19:30:17 <jcraig> ACTION-1393?
19:30:17 <trackbot> ACTION-1393 -- James Craig to Add aria-orientation to additional aria roles per 2-24-14 aria caucus wrt. issue-579 -- due 2014-03-03 -- OPEN
19:30:17 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1393
19:30:35 <Zakim> -James_Nurthen
19:30:47 <Zakim> -Susann_Keohane
19:30:49 <Zakim> -Jon_Gunderson
19:30:51 <Zakim> -[Apple]
19:30:52 <Zakim> -joanie
19:30:53 <Zakim> -Rich_Schwerdtfeger
19:30:53 <Zakim> -Stefan_Schnabel
19:30:54 <Zakim> -Janina_Sajka
19:30:55 <Zakim> -Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:30:56 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(ARIA)1:00PM has ended
19:30:57 <Zakim> Attendees were Rich_Schwerdtfeger, +1.512.659.aaaa, joanie, Joseph_Scheuhammer, James_Nurthen, Cynthia_Shelly, Michael_Cooper, Jon_Gunderson, jcraig, Stefan_Schnabel, Janina_Sajka,
19:30:57 <Zakim> ... Susann_Keohane
19:31:42 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
19:31:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/02/24-aria-minutes.html jcraig
19:32:52 <jcraig> regrets+ Matt_King
19:33:07 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
19:33:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/02/24-aria-minutes.html jcraig
19:33:22 <jcraig> scribe+ clown
19:35:25 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
19:35:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/02/24-aria-minutes.html jcraig
19:35:35 <jcraig> rrsagent, make log public
19:40:00 <jcraig> Zakim, please part
19:40:00 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria
19:40:07 <jcraig> rrsagent, bye
19:40:07 <RRSAgent> I see 6 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2014/02/24-aria-actions.rdf :
19:40:07 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Cooper to change URI to IRI and add reference to IRI docs/spec [1]
19:40:07 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/02/24-aria-irc#T18-20-44
19:40:07 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Cynthia to gather more information about secondary information (desc, tooltip, etc) [2]
19:40:07 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/02/24-aria-irc#T18-50-30
19:40:07 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jcraig to add aria-hint to ARIA 1.1 as related to issue 406 [3]
19:40:07 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/02/24-aria-irc#T18-59-25
19:40:07 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jcraig add role="text" to the ARIA 1.1 spec referencing issue-435 [4]
19:40:07 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/02/24-aria-irc#T19-08-07
19:40:07 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jcraig add a switch role to ARIA 1.1 in response to issue-446 [5]
19:40:07 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/02/24-aria-irc#T19-14-48
19:40:07 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jcraig add aria-orientation to additional ARIA roles per 2-24-14 ARIA Caucus wrt. Issue-579 [6]
19:40:07 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/02/24-aria-irc#T19-28-50