15:41:01 RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag 15:41:01 logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/02/18-wai-wcag-irc 15:41:03 RRSAgent, make logs public 15:41:05 Zakim, this will be WAI_WCAG 15:41:05 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_WCAG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 19 minutes 15:41:06 Meeting: Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference 15:41:06 Date: 18 February 2014 15:41:37 agenda + Comment processing for Publication Survey: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Misc20140218/ 15:41:44 zakim, agenda? 15:41:44 I see 2 items remaining on the agenda: 15:41:45 3. Techniques planning and expectations for working group members [from Joshue108] 15:41:45 4. Comment processing for Publication Survey: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Misc20140218/ [from Joshue] 15:41:56 zakim, drop item 3 15:41:56 agendum 3, Techniques planning and expectations for working group members, dropped 15:42:01 zakim, agenda? 15:42:01 I see 1 item remaining on the agenda: 15:42:02 4. Comment processing for Publication Survey: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Misc20140218/ [from Joshue] 15:42:46 agenda + Volunteers needed for remaining comments 15:43:08 agenda + Technique training and development 15:43:24 agenda + Technique assignments 15:43:29 zakim, agenda? 15:43:29 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda: 15:43:30 4. Comment processing for Publication Survey: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Misc20140218/ [from Joshue] 15:43:30 5. Volunteers needed for remaining comments [from Joshue] 15:43:30 6. Technique training and development [from Joshue] 15:43:30 7. Technique assignments [from Joshue] 15:43:41 Chair: AWK 15:51:38 AWK has joined #wai-wcag 15:52:03 trackbot, start meeting 15:52:05 RRSAgent, make logs public 15:52:07 Zakim, this will be WAI_WCAG 15:52:07 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_WCAG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 8 minutes 15:52:08 Meeting: Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference 15:52:08 Date: 18 February 2014 15:52:18 Chair: AWK 15:52:27 WAI_WCAG()11:00AM has now started 15:52:31 Zakim, Agenda? 15:52:31 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda: 15:52:32 4. Comment processing for Publication Survey: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Misc20140218/ [from Joshue] 15:52:32 5. Volunteers needed for remaining comments [from Joshue] 15:52:32 6. Technique training and development [from Joshue] 15:52:32 7. Technique assignments [from Joshue] 15:52:34 +AWK 15:55:35 +??P1 15:55:40 zakim, ??P1 is Michael_Cooper 15:55:40 +Michael_Cooper; got it 15:56:11 +[IPcaller] 15:56:16 zakim, [IPcaller] is Joshue 15:56:16 +Joshue; got it 15:56:23 zakim, who is on the phone? 15:56:23 On the phone I see AWK, Michael_Cooper, Joshue 15:57:25 BarryJohnson has joined #wai-wcag 15:58:18 No Phone today, just IRC 15:59:59 Kathleen has joined #wai-wcag 16:00:16 Kathy has joined #wai-wcag 16:00:39 +Kathleen 16:01:08 +Kathy_Wahlbin 16:03:03 marcjohlic has joined #wai-wcag 16:03:06 zakim, who is on the phone? 16:03:06 On the phone I see AWK, Michael_Cooper, Joshue, Kathleen, Kathy_Wahlbin 16:03:20 +Marc_Johlic 16:03:40 +Katie_Haritos-Shea 16:04:58 Loretta has joined #WAI-WCAG 16:05:12 zakim, mute me 16:05:12 Joshue should now be muted 16:05:29 ack me 16:05:57 Regrets+ David, Kerstin 16:06:03 regrets + JF 16:06:21 -Michael_Cooper 16:06:31 +[IPcaller] 16:06:41 +??P29 16:06:42 zakim, ??P29 is Michael_Cooper 16:06:42 +Michael_Cooper; got it 16:06:43 zakim, ipcaller is Loretta 16:06:43 +Loretta; got it 16:06:57 https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Scribe_List 16:06:57 zakim, mute me 16:06:58 Joshue should now be muted 16:08:04 Scribe:Loretta 16:09:12 zakim, agenda? 16:09:12 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda: 16:09:13 4. Comment processing for Publication Survey: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Misc20140218/ [from Joshue] 16:09:13 5. Volunteers needed for remaining comments [from Joshue] 16:09:13 6. Technique training and development [from Joshue] 16:09:13 7. Technique assignments [from Joshue] 16:09:22 zakim, take up item 1 16:09:22 agendum 1. "New Techniques: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20140211misc/" taken up [from Joshue108] 16:09:31 ack me 16:09:53 zakim, mute me 16:09:53 Joshue should now be muted 16:10:19 +Sailesh_Panchang 16:11:39 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Misc20140218/results 16:12:29 Topic: LC-2872: GIT and official W3C docs 16:12:48 AWK summarizes proposed response. 16:13:46 zakim, queue? 16:13:46 I see no one on the speaker queue 16:13:47 RESOLUTION: accepted as proposed. 16:14:00 Resolution: accepted as proposed. 16:14:28 Topic: LC:2874: Edits to G200 16:14:54 +q 16:14:57 ack me 16:16:50 zakim, mute me 16:16:50 Joshue should now be muted 16:16:56 new text: The user is logged into a secured area of a site, and following a link to a page outside of the secured area would terminate the user's logon. 16:17:30 Resolution: Accepted as amended. 16:17:59 Topic: LC-2883: HTML technique is a duplicate of H93 16:19:39 q+ 16:20:18 I Katie suggesting that we retire some numbers? 16:20:51 q+ 16:20:55 ack lor 16:21:16 LGR: The search engines keep finding the old version of docs. 16:21:24 LGR: We haven't come up with a solution. 16:21:31 ack me 16:21:33 LGR: Thats likely why. 16:21:48 MC: You can put a header at the top of the file 30,000 + 16:21:50 zakim, mute me 16:21:50 Michael_Cooper should now be muted 16:21:59 ack marc 16:22:26 q+ 16:22:30 Yes, thanks. 16:22:38 zakim, queue? 16:22:38 I see MichaelC on the speaker queue 16:22:40 ack me 16:23:10 MJ: Suggests adding a note to the current technique, alerting people to this problem. 16:23:38 zakim, mute me 16:23:38 Michael_Cooper should now be muted 16:23:45 ack me 16:24:04 LGR: The search engines dont adhere to this 16:24:04 MC: One problem is that there are dated as well as undated versions of documents. Loading via the "latest version" URI can lead to completely different techniques. 16:24:31 Sailesh: I assume everyone should be using the lastest versions, right? 16:25:18 Sailesh: At the topic of each page there is a link to the latest version, right? 16:25:34 MC: Only for the entire document, not for the individual techniques. 16:26:00 AWK: Is there any kind of metadata that would help? 16:26:09 LGR: can we change so there is a link to current techniques? 16:26:12 MC: We can do that 16:26:32 LGR: Can we add a "current version" link to the techniques template, to help this going forward? 16:26:46 MC: Yes, we can do this. We'll need to work with Shawn on this. 16:27:25 zakim, queue? 16:27:25 I see no one on the speaker queue 16:28:28 AWK updating response to include decision about technique lini. 16:28:53 Sailesh: The onus is also on the user to be sure they are using the latest version of a technique. 16:29:27 AWK: Yes, but given the behavior of the search engines, users may not have the context to realize this is a problem. 16:29:41 http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/ 16:29:53 ack me 16:30:06 http://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG20/quickref/ 16:30:15 AWK: Should we use the Techniques link or the How to Meet link? 16:30:47 LGR: I thought the link would go to the latest version of the technique itself? 16:31:05 LGR: Then it has to. 16:31:15 AWK: Ok, I don't get the remark. 16:31:42 LGR: The idea is that the technique would link back to the latest version of the techs doc. 16:31:54 zakim, mute me 16:31:54 Joshue should now be muted 16:32:26 +q 16:32:29 ack me 16:32:58 zakim, mute me 16:32:58 Joshue should now be muted 16:33:01 LGR: I misunderstood which link AWK was asking about, which is not the proposed new link, but the link in the response 16:33:32 LGR: which recommends where to find the latest techniques. 16:33:50 +1 16:34:02 +1 16:34:03 ack me 16:34:16 zakim, mute me 16:34:16 Joshue should now be muted 16:34:32 Resolution: Accepted as amended. 16:35:02 Topic: LC-2893: Understanding Sucess Criterion 1.4.3 16:36:35 AWK summarizes issue and response. 16:38:17 Katie: We should put this on the list of issues for future guidelines. 16:38:30 Resolution: Accepted as proposed. 16:38:39 zakim, queue? 16:38:39 I see no one on the speaker queue 16:39:16 zakim, queue? 16:39:16 I see no one on the speaker queue 16:39:49 ACTION: Katie to make sure this topic is on the list for future guidelines. 16:39:49 Created ACTION-237 - Make sure this topic is on the list for future guidelines. [on Katie Haritos-Shea - due 2014-02-25]. 16:40:10 jamesn has joined #wai-wcag 16:40:18 Sailesh: Is this an accessibility issue or a usability issue? 16:40:26 +James_Nurthen 16:40:28 https://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/35422/WD-UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20-20140107/2895 16:40:35 rrsagent, make minutes 16:40:35 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/02/18-wai-wcag-minutes.html jamesn 16:40:37 Topic: LC2895: Add "Techniques for Specific Technologies" 16:41:17 AWK: THis issue came from EO. 16:41:41 ack me 16:41:59 zakim, mute me 16:41:59 Joshue should now be muted 16:42:25 zakim, list attendees 16:42:25 As of this point the attendees have been AWK, Michael_Cooper, Joshue, Kathleen, Kathy_Wahlbin, Marc_Johlic, Katie_Haritos-Shea, Loretta, Sailesh_Panchang, James_Nurthen 16:42:56 http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/2014/WD-UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20-20140107/complete-diff.html#ut-understanding-techniques-general-tech-specific-head 16:44:05 AWK: EO wants us to add a new section on this topic. We already have a paragraph about this. The response is to amend that paragraph. 16:44:23 suggestion: Publication of techniques for a specific technology does not imply that all uses of that technology will meet WCAG 2.0. Developers need to be aware of the limitations of specific technologies and provide content in ways that meets WCAG 2.0 success criteria. 16:44:32 AWK: Worry about the phrase "makes accessible to all people", since WCAG itself doesn't claim to meet that goal. 16:44:41 +q 16:44:43 ack me 16:45:05 JOC: This is a snapshot of the wider issue of how to improve our messaging. 16:45:42 AWK: Yes. 16:46:06 JOC: We should err on the side of caution while we work on the re-messaging. 16:46:38 zakim, mute me 16:46:38 Joshue should now be muted 16:47:23 ack me 16:47:31 AWK: This seemed like it didn't harm the re-messaging. Does anyone have concerns about this? 16:48:36 zakim, mute me 16:48:36 Michael_Cooper should now be muted 16:48:43 +David_MacDonald 16:49:17 Resolution: Accepted as proposed. 16:49:31 David_ has joined #wai-wcag 16:49:50 Topic: LC-2897: ARIA 10 and requiring alt attributes 16:50:15 rssagent, draft minutes 16:50:38 rrsagent, make minutes 16:50:38 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/02/18-wai-wcag-minutes.html David_ 16:51:20 AWK: There has been lots of discussion within WAI on this topic in the last few months. 16:51:47 AWK: We know that ARIA 10 and F65 are currently out of sync. 16:52:21 AWK: People are concerned that the use of aria attributes are not as well supported across browsers. 16:52:52 AWK: Displaying the text when images aren't displayed is not a WCAG issue, but it is a UAAG issue. 16:53:52 AWK: The proposed response indicates how we will update ARIA 10 and F65, to encourage authors to use the alt attribute whenever they can. 16:54:07 q+ 16:54:09 q+ 16:54:43 LGR: While I agree with the sentiment, we can't issue a response that says we are going to make these changes. 16:54:58 AWK: We need to put those changes in place. 16:55:03 LGR: Yes 16:55:05 AWK: Got it 16:55:07 LGR: I agree with the direction proposed, but we need to put the proposed changes in place before we can accept this proposal. 16:55:32 +q 16:55:34 David: I accept the proposal. My concern was that the process be public and tranparent. 16:55:35 ack lor 16:55:40 ack dav 16:56:00 David: It is similar to the way we approach table layout, with a strong caution. 16:56:04 ack katie 16:56:50 +1 16:56:57 Katie: Is there a reason we can't recommend the ARIA techniques? Why the strong encouragement to use alt? 16:57:25 James: The reason relates to the level of accessibility support. 16:58:17 James: if you always require alt, why would anyone ever use aria? 16:58:50 Katie: we want to encourage people to support aria, but the reality is that the support isn't there. THe lesser of 2 evils is with providing access. 16:59:02 zakim, queue? 16:59:02 I see Joshue on the speaker queue 16:59:13 LGR: I don't understand what we are discussing! 16:59:52 AWK: Katie's suggestion is that our advice should include providing alt even if you use aria, so that you can provide the greatest backwards compatability. 17:00:17 ack me 17:00:28 Katie: Yes, I think the advice should require alt, rather than just strongly recommending it. 17:00:50 LGR: THis is why we need to decide what the technique modifications will be before we can answer this issue. 17:01:26 JOC: Some of this is an issue of user agent support for ARIA, and it is still early days. 17:01:30 ack kat 17:01:42 Zakim, queue? 17:01:45 I see Sailesh_Panchang on the speaker queue 17:01:46 Katie: Because we want to push aria forward, it still isn't fair to drop support for what is there. 17:02:04 Katie: It is not supported well enough by all the AT. It doesn't hurt, it only helps. 17:02:14 Katie: In 5 years, maybe we can drop that. 17:02:29 JOC: I agree. We need to do this in a very incremental way. 17:02:51 zakim, queue? 17:02:51 I see Sailesh_Panchang on the speaker queue 17:03:32 ack sai 17:03:33 AWK: I have added Working Group Notes for what we could potentially add to ARIA 10. Nothing for F65 yet. 17:03:33 ack sa 17:04:10 Sailesh: We can describe the current status of accessibility support, and what we recommend. 17:04:13 zakim, mute me 17:04:13 Joshue should now be muted 17:04:34 Sailesh: we should indicate that this is still in active discussion. 17:04:36 q+ 17:05:41 Katie reviews working group notes. 17:05:42 LGR: Can we please put this request in a survey please, and not do it now? 17:05:53 AWK: It's worth getting peoples thoughts 17:06:07 AWK: Still useful to get feedback from people right now. 17:06:10 +q 17:06:25 AWK: Katie, can we work on the wording together? 17:06:32 ack dav 17:06:35 -q 17:07:10 David: Clarify understanding? I heard Katie say that we would require an alt attribute, and I heard Andrew say that we strong recommend but don't require. 17:07:20 Katie: My proposal is to require alt. 17:07:30 AWK: My feeling is that we can't do that. 17:07:45 AWK: People can and will make valid conformance claims without that. 17:07:46 +q 17:07:54 AWK: We may be exceeding our authority. 17:08:13 David: It seems a bit strident that we are exceeding our authority. 17:08:19 ack me 17:08:27 David: Reconcile by allowing aria to be added to an image. 17:08:58 AWK: I worry about us taking hits to our credibility and relevance, because people are using aria 17:09:06 Katie: I think a bigger risk is losing access 17:09:33 AWK: We need to advocate for browsers and AT to improve their aria support. This will also be due to efforts by PF, too. 17:10:04 David: Should we be running ahead? WCAG should be giving pratical advice. 17:10:28 q+ 17:10:30 s/pratical/practical 17:10:35 JOC: THat is what we are trying to do. THe practical issues of how techniques are authored. In the WG, we have issues of managing perceptions. 17:11:31 JOC: There is a fine line we need to walk. 17:11:57 q+ 17:12:06 ack james 17:12:15 zakim, mute me 17:12:15 Joshue should now be muted 17:12:55 James: Re aria being a new thing: it will shortly be a Recommendation. THere has been browser support for many aria attributes for 5 or 6 years. This isn't new. 17:13:04 ack lor 17:13:27 s/5 or 6/4 or 5/ 17:13:35 q+ 17:13:44 ack me 17:14:05 -Joshue 17:14:49 David: Agree with Josh on almost everything. THe question is some variation of leaving ARIA 10 but requiring alt, or reopening F65. We will need to do one or the other. 17:15:05 David: Discuss either at Face to Face or in survey. 17:15:24 AWK: I hope before the F2F, since we would like to update the documents before then. 17:16:00 AWK: CHoices: keep ARIA 10 and modify F65, or don't keep ARIA 10 and don't modify F65. 17:16:17 David: or Katie's proposal to require alt for ARIA 10 17:16:40 LGR: But ARIA 10 is just an advisory technique on top of the alt technique. 17:17:19 Katie: ARIA 10 still encourages people to use aria, but requires alt. I hear from enough people who can't access information provided by aria. 17:17:45 Katie: I would rather flag it and delay the use of aria until it is supported for everyone. 17:18:10 Katie: People aren't hearing alternate text when it is provided by labelled-by. 17:18:16 q+ to ask if Katie feels the same way about labeling form fields? 17:18:21 AWK: With what browsers/AT combinations? 17:18:35 Katie: with a variety of combinations. 17:19:02 David: I don't see much use of labelled-by on the web. 17:19:10 AWK: I think we use it on the Adobe home page. 17:19:15 Resolution: leave open 17:19:21 ack me 17:19:21 jamesn, you wanted to ask if Katie feels the same way about labeling form fields? 17:19:37 s/on the web/on the web for images 17:19:47 Topic: LC-2881: This technique should be advisory G183 17:21:11 q- 17:21:58 Resolutino: Accepted as proposed. 17:23:14 Resolution: Accepted as amended. 17:23:50 Zakim, agenda? 17:23:50 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda: 17:23:51 4. Comment processing for Publication Survey: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Misc20140218/ [from Joshue] 17:23:51 5. Volunteers needed for remaining comments [from Joshue] 17:23:51 6. Technique training and development [from Joshue] 17:23:51 7. Technique assignments [from Joshue] 17:23:58 Zakim, close item 4 17:23:58 agendum 4, Comment processing for Publication Survey: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Misc20140218/, closed 17:24:01 I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 17:24:01 5. Volunteers needed for remaining comments [from Joshue] 17:24:06 Zakim, take up next item 17:24:06 agendum 5. "Volunteers needed for remaining comments" taken up [from Joshue] 17:24:56 AWK: Agenda email lists the remaining issues that need to be handled. 17:25:25 AWK: I don't believe any of these are necessary for this round, since they are on parts of the document that hasn't changed. 17:25:40 AWK: I will look at the commend on PDF techniques, however. 17:26:17 AWK: Does everyone know how to get into the comment tracker? (Not github). 17:26:23 http://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/35422/ 17:26:31 ack me 17:27:55 AWK: Go into the comments tracker, look at the links to comments #19 and #20 for the current comments. 17:28:30 AWK: Use the "assigned-to" drop down to select your own name to volunteer for that issue. 17:29:01 AWK: If you have a response that is ready for WG review, let me (Andrew) know. 17:29:47 AWK: None of the issues seem enormous, but may require some thought. 17:30:13 AWK: Likely to be included in the September update. 17:30:24 LGR: If we can include them in this update, it would be good. 17:30:59 AWK: Proposed publication schedule targets everything approved next week, and edits into the document by Feb 28. 17:31:36 AWK: Trying to negotiate MIchael's time, since ARIA is also trying to publish before CSUN. 17:32:25 LGR: We may need a longer meeting next week, or scheduling a separate meeting, to discuss the alt issue, since we need to settle that before publication. 17:32:54 AWK: we will plan to go 2 hours next week. 17:33:13 James: I have a conflict after our normal meeting time. 17:35:06 AWK: Propose using the Task Force meeting time (old WCAG time) for this issue. 17:35:27 -James_Nurthen 17:35:42 zakim, mute katie 17:35:42 Katie_Haritos-Shea should now be muted 17:35:46 zakim, mute sailesh 17:35:46 Sailesh_Panchang should now be muted 17:35:48 -Katie_Haritos-Shea 17:35:50 zakim, unmute katie 17:35:50 sorry, MichaelC, I do not know which phone connection belongs to katie 17:37:32 -AWK 17:37:33 -Kathleen 17:37:34 -Kathy_Wahlbin 17:37:35 -David_MacDonald 17:37:43 -Michael_Cooper 17:38:03 zakim, list attendees 17:38:03 As of this point the attendees have been AWK, Michael_Cooper, Joshue, Kathleen, Kathy_Wahlbin, Marc_Johlic, Katie_Haritos-Shea, Loretta, Sailesh_Panchang, James_Nurthen, 17:38:04 would you like me to push minutes Loretta 17:38:07 ... David_MacDonald 17:38:12 rrsagent, make minutes 17:38:12 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/02/18-wai-wcag-minutes.html marcjohlic 17:38:43 -Loretta 17:38:45 -Marc_Johlic 18:05:00 disconnecting the lone participant, Sailesh_Panchang, in WAI_WCAG()11:00AM 18:05:03 WAI_WCAG()11:00AM has ended 18:05:03 Attendees were AWK, Michael_Cooper, Joshue, Kathleen, Kathy_Wahlbin, Marc_Johlic, Katie_Haritos-Shea, Loretta, Sailesh_Panchang, James_Nurthen, David_MacDonald 19:48:50 Joshue has joined #wai-wcag