<vinh> hi all

<PhilA> Who is ipcaller??

<Vagner_Br> hello! good morning, afternoon, evening

<PhilA> Zakim is a wonderful thing (when it works)

<PhilA> The Zakim Bridge, Boston

last week's minutes

<HadleyBeeman> https://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/dwbp/2014-02-07

<EricStephan> +1

<PhilA> PROPOSED: Accept last week's minutes

<PhilA> +1

<EricStephan> +1

<HadleyBeeman> +1

<adler1> +1

<gatemezi> +1

<Caroline> +1

<vinh> +1

<Vagner_Br> +1

<yaso> +1

RESOLUTION: to accept last week's minutes https://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/dwbp/2014-02-07

<MTCarrasco> +1

<CarlosIglesias> +1

<PhilA> scribe: antoine

<PhilA> scribeNick: antoine

Webinar

Steve: it went well
... Jonathan presented Palo Alto
... very tech-savvy, but the city doesn't have a lot of resources
... they are continuely asked to show the value of open data

<gatemezi> See http://data.cityofpaloalto.org/

Steve: example of a map of the trees

<MTCarrasco> Palo Alto = Big Stick - liberal semantic translation :-)

Steve: with GIS data. Open data tags for every tree.
... he didn't know what URIs are (!)
... it's an opportunity to widen the scope of the usual dataset-focused approach
... it's also about describing physical elements

<MakxDekkers> hi, apologies, had connection problem

Steve: It's the opportunity for us
... between open data and the internet of things.
... It's important to notice that many people including CIOs don't know what W3C is doing
... We had really good questions at the end.
... we can go back to his staff
... Jonathan said they could help

<PhilA> scribe: PhilA

antoine: On the idea of the presenters... really good. Sorry I had to leave
... can they join the WG?

<antoine> ... Steve: I don't think it's the role they're looking for.

adler1: I don't think that's the role he's looking for. He can be an outside adviser

<scribe> scribe: antoine

UNKNOWN_SPEAKER: we could involve them from times to times.

<EricStephan> +q

Hadley: it would be great to have their feedback on drafts

<EricStephan> open311.org

Eric: Open311 concept was good.
... people can actively engage the data

Steve: in the US we have a number of 911-style numbers

<EricStephan> http://open311.org

Steve: in NYC 311 is for any administrative issues.
... education, health, etc.

<EricStephan> http://www.cityofpaloalto.org/services/paloalto311/default.asp

Hadley: Open311 part of city initiatives?

Steve: there are many efforts going on. Code4America, etc.

<PhilA> 311 is interesting - matches some ideas in the EU to make services interoperable cross border

Steve: in the US it's evolving around civic engagement around cities
... citizen are engaged.

Hadley: great! I wish there was more of this in the UK.

Steve: I also noted things on data quality

<BernadetteLoscio> in Recife we have a service similar to 311

Steve: Questions like : is your city looking at what other cities are doing?
... are you consuming the data of your neighbours?
... and their services?

<BernadetteLoscio> and the data is gonna be available

Steve: He said no.

<BernadetteLoscio> the data is already available

Steve: no standards. But he said he could be useful.

<BernadetteLoscio> in open format

Steve: The capability to comapre across service doesn't exist yet.

Hadley and steve: no de facto standard

<PhilA> No standard for data comparison? I beg to differ...

Steve: Jonathan said they had some process to review data

<BernadetteLoscio> @antoine, the lack of standards is a problem in all contexts of data integration

Steve: but no certification-like thing.
... We also discussed, where the city is getting the data from.
... sensors, etc.
... also the origin of data they're not passing on.

PhilA: Interesting: disconnection with what the group is

<BernadetteLoscio> i am trying to call you on skype but it doesnt work :(

<MTCarrasco> EU data https://open-data.europa.eu/en/data

PhilA: a great chance to shape what we want to do.
... it's hard to phrase it in a way that doesn't sound wrong
... they are srrounded by an environement of technical brilliance
... they do nice visualizations
... it's always tabular data
... There is no way to link the different resources

<BernadetteLoscio> it says that the code (3927#) is not valid

PhilA: e.g. links between types of trees and potholes (?)

<EricStephan> Cities are driven largely by relatively small budgets by this, because of their transparency they have to show immediate value to the public. I think this is what Jonathon is working through.

PhilA: This morning I had meetings with other people
... [???]
... improving the efficiency of councils
... Also with EU institutions

<BernadetteLoscio> thanks @gatemezi

PhilA: talking about common policy for URIs/Identifiers
... We must not talk down to Jonathan
... convincing them that they can get even more benefits
... we have to find a way to show what these benefits can be

Steve: I don't think we should worry too much
... cities like Palo Alto are very "just try it"-oriented
... I'm sure they could adopt what we recommend
... they would be ready to test what we're working on

PhilA: they've got some money, it's good
... we shoudl also establish connection with the group working on CSVs on the Web
... relation with South America?

Yaso (?): we're aligned

scribe: it seems complicated to put data on the web

<EricStephan> I can look into putting a Palo Alto CSV use case in the CSV Use Case wiki

scribe: we need guides

<PhilA> that would be great EricStephan

Steve: I chose P.A. because it's a small city
... their portal is from Junar who are from Latin America

<adler1> Junar

Yaso: we use CKAN because it's open source

<PhilA> http://www.junar.com/

Yaso: but the support is not great

<adler1> Junar is a small provider of open data catalogs and portals

<BernadetteLoscio> Costa Rica also uses Junar

Yaso: Costa Rica is changing to CKAN?

<MTCarrasco> Yeah, tagging all the trees in the Amazon is on a different scale :-)

Bernadette: yes they are planning.

<yaso> MTCarrasco for sure! :-)

<adler1> many cities and states are moving from Junar and Socrata to CKAN

Bernadette: in planning still. Many difficulties in implementing CKAN.

<adler1> Data.Gov, for example, moved from Socrata to CKAN in the past months

Hadley: we need people ot understand the beginning of publishing OD
... I'm looking at out charter, which mentions existing relevant documents/efforts, like OKFN

PhilA: yes we should link to existing info, not replicate
... if it's hosted in a stable way.
... we need to check with them
... for example OKFN

<adler1> my notes from the call: 1. We can explore the use of URI's for Open Data elements and physical things in a city that have multiple data elements 2. Cities are not yet tagging their data with metadata to allow comparability 3. There are not yet mechanisms to allow citizens to improve data completeness 4. Cities have internal processes for assuring data quality including sign-offs from IT and public officials but these activities are not recorded in metada[CUT]

PhilA: coming to Junar/CKAN/etc
... they get you far, but not all the way

<adler1> 5. Cities are not tracing origin and lineage 6. tuples would be a good way to identify relationships between things and data elements that could allow machine comparability of data sets in an internet of things that open data describes

PhilA: we need to educate about that
... we need to start on this, capture the use cases
... we must set the skleteon of the UC doc

Deirdre: yes, this links into the UC doc
... Bernadette and I will arrange discussion
... Makx sent ideas

<EricStephan> PhilA - I don't see Chris Metcalf on CSV working group

<BernadetteLoscio> great @deirdre!

Deirdre: we need different categories

<PhilA> Ok thanks EricStephan. I hope Socrata will be joining it soon

Deirdre: from stories to opportunities/challenges to best practices
... The time is now to populate ideas for UCs
... select 3 or 4, extract challenges and transforming them into challenges
... present exemples of implementation

Steve: we should document these UCs and discuss in London
... what's in common and what is different

<BernadetteLoscio> yes @antoine, i suggest to create a kind of template to describe the use cases

Steve: the F2F is 6 weeks ahead, the timing is good.

<Zakim> PhilA, you wanted to ask how many of these everyone recognises? ORG, DCAT, QB, PROV, URI, CSV

PhilA: it worries me that we assume that everybody (in the WG) has some knowledge
... on some topics, e.g. the acronyms (ORG, DCAT, QB, PROV, URI, CSV)
... If we don't know, who knows?

<EricStephan> I don't think it is safe to assume.

<Ig_Bittencourt> Yes, I recognise.

Hadley: good that you're bringing it on the table.

Eric: I'm familiar with all of those

<JoaoPauloAlmeida> I'm familiar, but it's a good point that it's not safe to assume

<MTCarrasco> What about a primer?

Eric: but I wouldn't assume everyone knows

<BernadetteLoscio> me too, I am familiar with most

Eric: perhaps we could make a wiki page

<MTCarrasco> A primer page

Eric: as a WG

<HadleyBeeman> http://www.w3.org/TR/ld-glossary/

<EricStephan> That is extremely helpful

Hadley: made my the GLD WG
... could be useful for the Linked Data side of things
... doesn't mention how to publish data
... but it's one possibility
... Eric if you want to start this, it would be wonderful

<yaso> I'm familiar with these too, but I think this group only exists because most people are not :,(

<PhilA> ACTION: EricStephan to begin a wiki page of background reading for WG members [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/02/14-dwbp-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-1 - Begin a wiki page of background reading for wg members [on Eric Stephan - due 2014-02-21].

Eric: OK

Steve: how many of you were familiar with the type of open data challenges Jonathan mentioned?

<EricStephan> Not from the city perspective, same silos of information on the science side.

Yaso: I was familiar

<BernadetteLoscio> i am familiar with those problems of open data

Yaso: but I think many are not.

PhilA: the CSV group is trying to bridge the gap between the world of tabular data and more semantic approaches

<MTCarrasco> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Alamos_Primer

Steve: how should we document the policy implications of the tech documented in standard?

Hadley: the GLD WG ran into trouble with personal data

Steve: we have a tendency to focus on the tech aspects
... the group has a W3C filter on what he said
... maybe we didn't get what Jonathan really said

<EricStephan> I agree we need to take off our "W3C glasses" and see the data as Joanathon does from the end user perspective.

Steve: he was fascinated by the fact that his city could control its environment by tagging
... not the URIs

<gatemezi> +1 to Steve point. It is not easy to remove our "tech glasses"

<EricStephan> Personalizing technology...great point

Steve: Jonathan has a different perspective
... he's more into interacting with policy people
... I'm not sure how to bridge the gap
... some IBM colleagues also interpreted the call according to their products

Hadley: when writing the use case, we should think of who the user is: end user, app developer

<EricStephan> In science some people are more production oriented, and others like Jonathon are more consumer oriented. Jonathon really understood his user community...

MTCarrasco: people working with tech for quite a while
... even them don't really comprehend what is a URI
... we need not write about it in extenso
... rather make a list of abbreviation and documentation
... it's hard to participate meaningfully in a group like this one
... the example of trees: how do different people use the data?
... In our case we have to focus on the data, not how people intend to use.

Hadley: usage is generic

<Zakim> antoine, you wanted to comment on role of different orgs

<adler1> we could identify the key roles involved and describe how the standards and best practices will/could be used by them

Antoine: we're a technical group. It's good to relate to business case, but we shouldn't focus on business alone, like OKFN for example.

Deirdre: getting blind looks while explaining linked data
... the UC doc should explain for example why to use URIs

<BernadetteLoscio> i agree with deirdre

Deirdre: what are the challenges that could be answered by URIs

<adler1> +1

<PhilA> +1 to deirdrelee

<MTCarrasco> A wiki primer page with links to the appropriate sources. In addition to the basic items such as abbreviations, one needs to fully comprehend concepts such as URI and content negotiation.

<yaso> +1

Deirdre: and then the BP document could make the recommendations
... The UC could address the specific gaps/challenges

Hadley: I agree

<PhilA> Note to all - we use the +1 idea to signal approval/agreement - easier than typing 'I agree' :-)

I also think this would address my comment!

JoaoPauloAlmeida: I don't understand what we try to do

<gatemezi> +1 to PhilA Note ..;-)

JoaoPauloAlmeida: with use cases normally it's about what users want to do

Deirdre: the UC is about looking at the challenges in UCs from many domains
... what can't be address with existing approaches
... generalizing different stories

<BernadetteLoscio> it is to describe experiences

<JoaoPauloAlmeida> Challenges for Data on the Web

<BernadetteLoscio> the main challenges

<PhilA> I wish I could have articulated it that well in the charter, deirdrelee

Steve: by doing these UCs on an ongoing basis

<JoaoPauloAlmeida> perhaps it would be better to frame it in this way: Challenges for Data on the Web

Steve: we will learn what we don't know
... I hope that by doing many of these over time in the end we'll be able to recognize known things in new cases.
... The next case/webinar is NYC
... complete different scale
... chosen on purpose

<PhilA> Really sorry I'm going to miss the NYC webinar

Steve: If you have friends who work on cases, it would be fantastic!

Hadley: Deirdre, could you put a skeleton for UC doc for next week?

<PhilA> ACTION: deirdrelee to work with BernadetteLoscio to create skeleton of UC document [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/02/14-dwbp-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Error finding 'deirdrelee'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2013/dwbp/track/users>.

<BernadetteLoscio> yes!

<PhilA> ACTION: Lee to work with BernadetteLoscio to create skeleton of UC document [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/02/14-dwbp-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> 'Lee' is an ambiguous username. Please try a different identifier, such as family name or username (e.g., dlee8, klee5).

<PhilA> https://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/dwbp/2014-02-14

Hadley: bye!

<yaso> \o/

<MTCarrasco> The trees in Palo Alto are resources identified by URIs. Users will use how they want, this is not necessarily how the providers intend.

<JoaoPauloAlmeida> :-)

<adler1> ciao

<BernadetteLoscio> thank you!

<MTCarrasco> bye

PhilA: the minutes look good!

<BernadetteLoscio> tchau!

<PhilA> ACTION: Deirdre Lee to work with BernadetteLoscio to create skeleton of UC document [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/02/14-dwbp-minutes.html#action04]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-2 - Lee to work with bernadetteloscio to create skeleton of uc document [on Deirdre Lee - due 2014-02-21].

PhilA are you still here?

This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.138  of Date: 2013-04-25 13:59:11  
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Scribes: antoine, PhilA
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Default Present: deirdrelee, PhilA, Vinh, HadleyBeeman, Caroline, ericstephan, antoine, MTCarrasco, adler1, CarlosIglesias, Ig_Bittencourt, Makx_Dekkers, JoaoPauloAlmeida, gatemezi, BernadetteLoscio
Present: deirdrelee PhilA Vinh HadleyBeeman Caroline ericstephan antoine MTCarrasco adler1 CarlosIglesias Ig_Bittencourt Makx_Dekkers JoaoPauloAlmeida gatemezi BernadetteLoscio

WARNING: No meeting title found!
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<dbooth> Meeting: Weekly Baking Club Meeting


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<dbooth> Chair: dbooth

Got date from IRC log name: 14 Feb 2014
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2014/02/14-dwbp-minutes.html
People with action items: deirdre deirdrelee ericstephan lee