12:57:28 RRSAgent has joined #dwbp 12:57:28 logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/02/14-dwbp-irc 12:57:38 Vagner_Br has joined #dwbp 12:58:24 zakim, this will be dwbp 12:58:24 ok, PhilA; I see DATA_DWBP()8:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes 12:58:25 DATA_DWBP()8:00AM has now started 12:58:31 +[IPcaller] 12:58:31 hi all 12:58:47 deirdrelee has joined #dwbp 12:58:47 Who is ipcaller?? 12:59:03 zakim, ipcaller is me 12:59:03 +deirdrelee; got it 12:59:03 hello! good morning, afternoon, evening 12:59:16 +[IPcaller] 12:59:18 zakim, icaller is me 12:59:18 sorry, PhilA, I do not recognize a party named 'icaller' 12:59:23 zakim, ipcaller is me 12:59:23 +PhilA; got it 12:59:25 +Vinh 12:59:39 adler1 has joined #dwbp 12:59:39 Caroline has joined #dwbp 12:59:53 yaso has joined #dwbp 12:59:54 EricStephan has joined #dwbp 13:00:03 +Yaso 13:00:16 antoine has joined #dwbp 13:00:20 +Steve 13:00:26 +HadleyBeeman 13:00:32 Zakim, Yaso has Caroline 13:00:32 +Caroline; got it 13:00:41 +ericstephan 13:00:49 +[IPcaller] 13:00:53 MTCarrasco has joined #dwbp 13:00:57 +??P8 13:01:00 zakim, IPcaller is me 13:01:00 +antoine; got it 13:01:18 zakim, ??P8 is me 13:01:18 +MTCarrasco; got it 13:01:35 zakim, who is on the call? 13:01:35 On the phone I see deirdrelee, PhilA, Vinh, Yaso, Steve, HadleyBeeman, ericstephan, antoine, MTCarrasco 13:01:37 Yaso has Caroline 13:02:00 zakim, Steve is adler1 13:02:00 +adler1; got it 13:02:20 Zakim is a wonderful thing (when it works) 13:02:34 MakxDekkers has joined #dwbp 13:02:45 MakxDekkers has left #dwbp 13:02:49 zakim, who is here? 13:02:49 On the phone I see deirdrelee, PhilA, Vinh, Yaso, adler1, HadleyBeeman, ericstephan, antoine, MTCarrasco 13:02:51 Yaso has Caroline 13:02:51 On IRC I see MTCarrasco, antoine, EricStephan, yaso, Caroline, adler1, deirdrelee, Vagner_Br, RRSAgent, Zakim, PhilA, vinh, HadleyBeeman, sandro, trackbot 13:02:56 -> http://www.leonardpzakimbunkerhillbridge.org/Zakim_Bridge_AndyRyan.jpg The Zakim Bridge, Boston 13:02:57 CarlosIglesias has joined #dwbp 13:03:08 MakxDekkers has joined #dwbp 13:03:16 gatemezi has joined #DWBP 13:03:40 +??P11 13:04:12 zakim, ??P11 is me 13:04:12 +CarlosIglesias; got it 13:04:16 zakim, who is here? 13:04:16 On the phone I see deirdrelee, PhilA, Vinh, Yaso, adler1, HadleyBeeman, ericstephan, antoine, MTCarrasco, CarlosIglesias 13:04:18 Yaso has Caroline 13:04:18 On IRC I see gatemezi, MakxDekkers, CarlosIglesias, MTCarrasco, antoine, EricStephan, yaso, Caroline, adler1, deirdrelee, Vagner_Br, RRSAgent, Zakim, PhilA, vinh, HadleyBeeman, 13:04:18 ... sandro, trackbot 13:04:46 -HadleyBeeman 13:05:07 +HadleyBeeman 13:06:30 Ig_Bittencourt has joined #DWBP 13:06:44 Topic: last week's minutes 13:06:46 https://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/dwbp/2014-02-07 13:07:03 +??P12 13:07:04 +1 13:07:09 PROPOSED: Accept last week's minutes 13:07:14 +1 13:07:15 +1 13:07:18 +1 13:07:21 +1 13:07:29 +1 13:07:33 +1 13:07:42 +1 13:07:56 +1 13:08:04 zakim, p12 is Ig_Bittencourt 13:08:04 sorry, Ig_Bittencourt, I do not recognize a party named 'p12' 13:08:16 +1 13:08:20 zakim, who is here? 13:08:20 On the phone I see deirdrelee, PhilA, Vinh, Yaso, adler1, ericstephan, antoine, MTCarrasco, CarlosIglesias, HadleyBeeman, ??P12 13:08:22 Yaso has Caroline 13:08:22 On IRC I see Ig_Bittencourt, gatemezi, MakxDekkers, CarlosIglesias, MTCarrasco, antoine, EricStephan, yaso, Caroline, adler1, deirdrelee, Vagner_Br, RRSAgent, Zakim, PhilA, vinh, 13:08:22 ... HadleyBeeman, sandro, trackbot 13:08:25 zakim, ??p12 is Ig_Bittencourt 13:08:25 +Ig_Bittencourt; got it 13:08:38 RESOLVED: to accept last week's minutes https://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/dwbp/2014-02-07 13:08:39 +1 13:08:44 +1 13:08:46 scribe: antoine 13:08:54 scribeNick: antoine 13:09:46 Topic: Webinar 13:09:48 MakxDekkers has joined #dwbp 13:10:01 Steve: it went well 13:10:16 ... Jonathan presented Palo Alto 13:11:16 ... very tech-savvy, but the city doesn't have a lot of resources 13:11:31 ... they are continuely asked to show the value of open data 13:12:23 See http://data.cityofpaloalto.org/ 13:12:32 ... example of a map of the trees 13:12:34 Palo Alto = Big Stick - liberal semantic translation :-) 13:12:41 BernadetteLoscio has joined #dwbp 13:13:06 ... with GIS data. Open data tags for every tree. 13:13:22 ... he didn't know what URIs were (!) 13:13:28 s/were/are 13:13:56 +Makx_Dekkers 13:14:00 ... it's an opportunity to widen the scope of the usual dataset-focused approach 13:14:23 ... it's also about describing physical elements 13:14:24 hi, apologies, had connection problem 13:14:40 ... It's the opportunity for us 13:14:51 ... between open data and the internet of things. 13:14:53 JoaoPauloAlmeida has joined #dwbp 13:15:27 ... It's important to notice that many people including CIOs don't know what W3C is doing 13:15:27 +??P14 13:15:33 Zakim, ??P14 is me 13:15:33 +JoaoPauloAlmeida; got it 13:15:41 ... We had really good questions at the end. 13:15:52 ... we can go back to his staff 13:16:00 +[IPcaller] 13:16:03 ... Jonathan said they could help 13:16:06 q+ 13:16:21 ack antoine 13:16:22 scribe: PhilA 13:16:34 newton has joined #dwbp 13:16:36 antoine: On the idea of the presenters... really good. Sorry I had to leave 13:16:42 ... can they join the WG? 13:16:44 Zakim, mute me 13:16:44 JoaoPauloAlmeida should now be muted 13:16:58 ... Steve: I don't think it's the role they're looking for. 13:17:02 adler1: I don't think that's the role he's looking for. He can be an outside adviser 13:17:06 scribe: antoine 13:17:12 ... we could involve them from times to times. 13:17:21 +q 13:17:29 Hadley: it would be great to have their feedback on drafts 13:17:36 ack eric 13:17:44 open311.org 13:17:57 Eric: Open311 concept was good. 13:18:11 ... people can actively engage the data 13:18:23 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/02/14-dwbp-minutes.html antoine 13:18:38 Steve: in the US we have a number of 911-style numbers 13:18:57 http://open311.org 13:19:08 ... in NYC 311 is for any administrative issues. 13:19:16 ... education, health, etc. 13:19:39 http://www.cityofpaloalto.org/services/paloalto311/default.asp 13:20:15 q? 13:20:17 Hadley: Open311 par of city initiatives? 13:20:23 s/par/part 13:20:44 Steve: there are many efforts going on. Code4America, etc. 13:21:03 311 is interesting - matches some ideas in the EU to make services interoperable cross border 13:21:04 ... in the US it's evolving around civic engagement around cities 13:21:09 ... citizen are engaged. 13:21:25 Hadley: great! I wish there was more of this in the UK. 13:21:38 Steve: I also noted things on data quality 13:21:56 in Recife we have a service similar to 311 13:21:57 ... Questions like : is your city looking at what other cities are doing? 13:22:09 ... are you consuming the data of your neighbours? 13:22:13 ... and their services? 13:22:16 and the data is gonna be available 13:22:18 ... He said no. 13:22:31 the data is already available 13:22:36 ... no standards. But he said he could be useful. 13:22:39 in open format 13:23:16 ... The capability to comapre across service doesn't exist yet. 13:23:35 Hadley and steve: no de fact standard 13:23:43 s/fact/facto 13:23:47 No standard for data comparison? I beg to differ... 13:23:54 Steve: Jonathan said they had some process to review data 13:24:01 q+ philA 13:24:13 @antoine, the lack of standards is a problem in all contexts of data integration 13:24:14 ... but no certification-like thing. 13:24:38 ... We also discussed, where the city is getting the data from. 13:24:41 ... sensors, etc. 13:24:49 ack me 13:24:54 ... also the origin of data they're not passing one. 13:24:57 s/one/on 13:25:20 PhilA: Interesting: disconnection with what the group is 13:25:29 i am trying to call you on skype but it doesnt work :( 13:25:33 EU data https://open-data.europa.eu/en/data 13:25:34 ... a great chance to shape what we want to do. 13:26:00 ... it's hard to phrase it in a way that doesn't sound wrong 13:26:13 ... they are srrounded by an environement of technical brilliance 13:26:26 ... they do nice visualizations 13:26:38 ... it's always tabular data 13:27:14 ... There is no way to link the different resources 13:27:22 it says that the code (3927#) is not valid 13:27:30 ... e.g. links between types of trees and potholes (?) 13:27:32 Cities are driven largely by relatively small budgets by this, because of their transparency they have to show immediate value to the public. I think this is what Jonathon is working through. 13:28:05 ... This morning I had meetings with other people 13:28:16 +[IPcaller] 13:28:19 ... [???] 13:28:35 ... improving the efficiency of councils 13:28:42 ... Also with EU institutions 13:28:46 thanks @gatemezi 13:28:54 ... talking about common policy for URIs/Identifiers 13:29:06 -Vinh 13:29:11 ... We must not talk down to Jonathan 13:29:13 Zakim, [IPcaller] is me 13:29:13 +BernadetteLoscio; got it 13:29:24 ... convincing them that they can get even more benefits 13:29:34 ... we have to find a way to show what these benefits can be 13:29:44 Steve: I don't think we should worry too much 13:30:17 ... cities like Palo Alto are very "just try it"-oriented 13:30:38 ... I'm sure they could adopt what we recommend 13:30:52 ... they would be ready to test what we're working on 13:30:59 +Vinh 13:31:17 PhilA: they've gone money, it's good 13:31:31 ... we shoudl also establish connection with the group working on CSVs on the Web 13:31:45 s/gone/got some 13:32:11 PhilA: relation with South America? 13:32:22 Yaso (?): we're aligned 13:32:29 ... it seems complicated to put data on the web 13:32:38 I can look into putting a Palo Alto CSV use case in the CSV Use Case wiki 13:32:38 ... we need guides 13:32:51 that would be great EricStephan 13:32:53 Steve: I chose P.A. because it's a small city 13:33:09 ... their portal is from ??? who are from Latin America 13:33:16 Junar 13:33:25 Yaso: we use CKAN because it's open source 13:33:25 s/???/Junar 13:33:39 http://www.junar.com/ 13:33:44 ... but the support is not great 13:33:49 Junar is a small provider of open data catalogs and portals 13:33:52 Costa Rica also uses Junar 13:33:55 q+ 13:34:21 Yaso: Porto Rica is changing to CKAN? 13:34:22 q+ 13:34:24 Yeah, tagging all the trees in the Amazon is on a different scale :-) 13:34:31 ???: yes they are planning. 13:34:40 MTCarrasco for sure! :-) 13:34:42 ack Caroline 13:34:52 s/???/Bernadette/ 13:34:53 many cities and states are moving from Junar and Socrata to CKAN 13:35:15 ... in planning still. Many difficulties in implementing CKAN. 13:35:16 Data.Gov, for example, moved from Socrata to CKAN in the past months 13:35:19 s/Porto/Costa 13:35:33 q- 13:35:54 Hadley: we need people ot understand the beginning of publishing OD 13:36:22 q+ 13:36:24 ... I'm looking at out charter, which mentions existing relevant documents/efforts, like OKFN 13:36:28 ack me 13:36:45 PhilA: yes we should link to existing info, not replicate 13:36:56 ... if it's hosted in a stable way. 13:37:08 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 13:37:08 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/02/14-dwbp-minutes.html antoine 13:37:19 ... we need to check with them 13:37:28 ... for example OKFN 13:37:33 my notes from the call: 1. We can explore the use of URI's for Open Data elements and physical things in a city that have multiple data elements 2. Cities are not yet tagging their data with metadata to allow comparability 3. There are not yet mechanisms to allow citizens to improve data completeness 4. Cities have internal processes for assuring data quality including sign-offs from IT and public officials but these activities are not recorded in metada[CUT] 13:37:37 ... coming to Junar/CKAN/etc 13:38:01 ... they get you far, but not all the way 13:38:07 5. Cities are not tracing origin and lineage 6. tuples would be a good way to identify relationships between things and data elements that could allow machine comparability of data sets in an internet of things that open data describes 13:38:08 ... we need to educate about that 13:38:11 q+ 13:38:34 ... we need to start on this, capture the use cases 13:38:49 ack deirdre 13:38:52 ... we must set the skleteon of the UC doc 13:39:04 Deirdre: yes, this link into the UC doc 13:39:08 s/link/links 13:39:28 ... Bernadette and I will arrange discussion 13:39:37 ... Makx sent ideas 13:39:45 PhilA - I don't see Chris Metcalf on CSV working group 13:39:51 great @deirdre! 13:40:03 ... we need different caegories 13:40:07 Ok thanks EricStephan. I hope Socrata will be joining it soon 13:40:21 s/caegories/categories 13:40:39 ... from stories to opportunities/challenges to best practices 13:41:00 ... The time is now to populate ideas for UCs 13:41:21 ... select 3 or 4, extract challenges and transforming them into challenges 13:41:32 ... present exemples of implementation 13:42:15 Steve: we should document these UCs and discuss in London 13:42:25 ... what's in common and what is different 13:42:31 zakim, who is talking? 13:42:35 Zakim, who is making noise? 13:42:38 Zakim, mute me 13:42:38 Ig_Bittencourt should now be muted 13:42:42 HadleyBeeman, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: HadleyBeeman (2%), adler1 (25%), Ig_Bittencourt (15%), gatemezi (30%) 13:42:55 JoaoPauloAlmeida, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: deirdrelee (86%), PhilA (13%), Yaso (12%), HadleyBeeman (9%), gatemezi (34%), BernadetteLoscio (5%) 13:42:57 yes @antoine, i suggest to create a kind of template to describe the use cases 13:43:04 Zakim, mute me 13:43:04 BernadetteLoscio should now be muted 13:43:08 ... the F2F is 6 weeks ago, the timing is good. 13:43:08 q+ to ask how many of these everyone recognises? ORG, DCAT, QB, PROV, URI, CSV 13:43:12 s/ago/ahead 13:43:42 ack phil 13:43:42 PhilA, you wanted to ask how many of these everyone recognises? ORG, DCAT, QB, PROV, URI, CSV 13:44:16 PhilA: it worries me that we assume that everybody (in the WG) has some knowledge 13:44:35 ... on some topics, e.g. the acronyms (ORG, DCAT, QB, PROV, URI, CSV) 13:44:55 ... If we don't know, who knows? 13:44:56 I don't think it is safe to assume. 13:45:04 q+ 13:45:18 Yes, I recognise. 13:45:23 Hadley: good that you're bringing it on the table. 13:45:26 ack EricStephan 13:45:32 Eric: I'm familiar with most 13:45:42 I'm familiar, but it's a good point that it's not safe to assume 13:45:43 s/most/all of those/ 13:45:51 What about a primer? 13:45:57 ... but I wouldn't assume everyone knows 13:45:58 me too, I am familiar with most 13:46:03 ... perhaps we could make a wiki page 13:46:19 A primer page 13:46:22 q+ 13:46:24 ... as a WG 13:46:26 http://www.w3.org/TR/ld-glossary/ 13:46:35 That is extremely helpful 13:46:40 Hadley: made my the GLD WG 13:46:52 ... could be useful for the Linked Data side of things 13:47:01 ... doesn't mention how to publish data 13:47:07 ... but it's one possibility 13:47:20 ... Eric if you want to start this, it would be wonderful 13:47:21 I'm familiar with these too, but I think this group only exists because most people are not :,( 13:47:22 action: EricStephan to begin a wiki page of background reading for WG members 13:47:22 Created ACTION-1 - Begin a wiki page of background reading for wg members [on Eric Stephan - due 2014-02-21]. 13:47:26 Eric: OK 13:47:58 Steve: how many of you were familiar with the type of open data challenges Jonathan mentioned? 13:48:11 Not from the city perspective, same silos of information on the science side. 13:48:14 Yaso: I was familiar 13:48:16 i am familiar with those problems of open data 13:48:20 ... but I think many are not. 13:49:09 PhilA: the CSV group is trying to bridge the gap between the world of tabular data and more semantic approaches 13:49:14 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Alamos_Primer 13:49:21 q? 13:49:36 Steve: how should we document the policy implications of the tech documented in standard? 13:49:55 Hadley : the GLD WG ran into trouble with personal data 13:50:08 Steve: we have a tendency to focus on the tech aspects 13:50:19 ... the group has a W3C filter on what he said 13:50:33 ... maybe we didn't get what Jonathan really said 13:50:48 q+ on role of different orgs 13:51:01 I agree we need to take off our "W3C glasses" and see the data as Joanathon does from the end user perspective. 13:51:10 ... he was fascinated by the fact that his city could control its environment by tagging 13:51:20 ... not the URIs 13:51:31 +1 to Steve point. It is not easy to remove our "tech glasses" 13:51:38 q+ 13:51:44 Personalizing technology...great point 13:51:52 ... Jonathan has a different perspective 13:52:01 q+ 13:52:05 ... he's more into interacting with policy people 13:52:19 ... I'm nto sure how to bridge the gap 13:52:26 s/nto/not 13:52:47 ... some IBM colleagues also interpreted the call according to their products 13:52:57 Zakim, who is on the queue? 13:52:57 I see MTCarrasco, antoine, PhilA, deirdrelee on the speaker queue 13:53:14 Hadley: when writing the use case, we should think of who the user is: end user, app developer 13:53:21 ack MTCarrasco 13:53:21 In science some people are more production oriented, and others like Jonathon are more consumer oriented. Jonathon really understood his user community... 13:53:23 ack mt 13:53:38 MTCarrasco: people working with tech for quite a while 13:53:49 ... even them don't really comprehend what is a URI 13:54:02 q- 13:54:07 ... we need not write about it in extenso 13:54:20 ... rather make a list of abbreviation and documentation 13:54:44 ... it's hard to participate meaningfully in a group like this one 13:55:02 ... the example of trees: how do different people use the data? 13:55:47 ... In our case we have to focus on the data, not how people intend to use. 13:56:00 Hadley: usage is generic 13:56:07 ack next 13:56:08 antoine, you wanted to comment on role of different orgs 13:56:14 we could identify the key roles involved and describe how the standards and best practices will/could be used by them 13:57:42 ack antoine 13:57:46 ack deirdre 13:57:54 Antoine: we're a technical group. It's good to relate to business case, but we shouldn't focus on business alone, like OKFN for example. 13:58:25 Deirdre: getting blind looks while explaining linked data 13:58:38 ... the UC doc should explain for example why to use URIs 13:58:39 i agree with deirdre 13:58:51 ... what are the challenges that could be answered by URIs 13:58:51 +1 13:58:54 +1 to deirdrelee 13:58:55 q+ 13:59:04 A wiki primer page with links to the appropriate sources. In addition to the basic items such as abbreviations, one needs to fully comprehend concepts such as URI and content negotiation. 13:59:05 +1 13:59:06 ... and then the BP document could make the recommendations 13:59:20 ... The UC could address the specific gaps/challenges 13:59:27 Hadley: I agree 13:59:32 Zakim, unmute me 13:59:32 JoaoPauloAlmeida should no longer be muted 13:59:35 Note to all - we use the +1 idea to signal approval/agreement - easier than typing 'I agree' :-) 13:59:38 I also think this would address my comment! 13:59:40 ack joao 13:59:51 q+ 13:59:58 JoaoPauloAlmeida: I don't understand what we try to do 14:00:07 +1 to PhilA Note ..;-) 14:00:12 ... with use case normally it's about what users want to do 14:00:19 s/use case/use cases 14:00:44 Deirdre: the UC is about looking at the challenges in UCs from many domains 14:00:53 ... what can't be address with existing approaches 14:00:59 q? 14:01:03 ... generalizing different stories 14:01:03 it is to describe experiences 14:01:03 Challenges for Data on the Web 14:01:11 the main challenges 14:01:21 I wish I could have articulated it that well in the charter, deirdrelee 14:01:23 ack adler 14:01:35 Steve: by doing these UCs on an ongoing basis 14:01:36 perhaps it would be better to frame it in this way: Challenges for Data on the Web 14:01:43 ... we will learn what we don't know 14:02:10 ... I hope that by doing many of these over time in the end we'll be able to recognize known things in new cases. 14:02:21 ... The next case/webinar is NYC 14:02:26 ... complete different scale 14:02:32 ... chosen on purpose 14:02:36 Zakim, mute me 14:02:36 JoaoPauloAlmeida should now be muted 14:02:47