15:33:03 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
15:33:03 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/02/11-wai-wcag-irc
15:33:05 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:33:05 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #wai-wcag
15:33:07 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_WCAG
15:33:08 <trackbot> Meeting: Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
15:33:08 <trackbot> Date: 11 February 2014
15:33:09 <Joshue108> agenda + New Techniques: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20140211misc/
15:33:09 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_WCAG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 27 minutes
15:33:15 <Joshue108> CSUN update – meeting confirmed
15:33:22 <Joshue108> agenda + CSUN update – meeting confirmed
15:33:32 <Joshue108> agenda + Techniques planning and expectations for working group members
15:34:26 <Joshue108> Chair: Joshue
15:46:40 <BarryJohnson> BarryJohnson has joined #wai-wcag
15:48:56 <wuwei> wuwei has joined #wai-wcag
15:56:04 <Zakim> WAI_WCAG()11:00AM has now started
15:56:11 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:56:20 <Joshue108> zakim, [IPcaller] is Joshue
15:56:20 <Zakim> +Joshue; got it
15:56:29 <Joshue108> zakim, agenda?
15:56:29 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
15:56:30 <Zakim> 1. New Techniques: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20140211misc/ [from Joshue108]
15:56:30 <Zakim> 2. CSUN update – meeting confirmed [from Joshue108]
15:56:30 <Zakim> 3. Techniques planning and expectations for working group members [from Joshue108]
15:57:01 <Joshue108> zakim, mute me
15:57:01 <Zakim> sorry, Joshue108, muting is not permitted when only one person is present
15:58:03 <Zakim> +AWK
15:58:24 <AWK> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:58:24 <Zakim> On the phone I see Joshue, AWK
15:59:49 <Zakim> +Barry_Johnson
16:00:04 <Kathleen> Kathleen has joined #wai-wcag
16:00:39 <Zakim> +Kathleen
16:01:15 <Zakim> +Kathy_Wahlbin
16:02:56 <marcjohlic> marcjohlic has joined #wai-wcag
16:03:23 <Zakim> +Katie_Haritos-Shea
16:04:09 <Loretta> Loretta has joined #wai-wcag
16:04:25 <Kathy> scribe: Kathy
16:04:29 <wuwei> wuwei has joined #wai-wcag
16:04:50 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:05:02 <BarryJohnson> Are there "Scribe" instructions?
16:05:03 <Loretta> zakim, IPCaller is Loretta
16:05:03 <Zakim> +Loretta; got it
16:05:17 <Zakim> +??P21
16:05:29 <wuwei> wuwei has joined #wai-wcag
16:05:36 <AWK> Scribe list: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Scribe_List
16:06:00 <Zakim> +Marc_Johlic
16:06:23 <Ryladog> Ryladog has joined #wai-wcag
16:06:29 <wuwei> wuwei has joined #wai-wcag
16:07:24 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Joshue, AWK, Barry_Johnson, Kathleen, Kathy_Wahlbin, Katie_Haritos-Shea, Loretta, Michael_Cooper, Marc_Johlic
16:07:50 <Joshue108> zakim, take up item one
16:07:50 <Zakim> 'one' does not match any agenda item, Joshue108
16:08:03 <Joshue108> zakim, take up first item
16:08:03 <Zakim> I don't understand 'take up first item', Joshue108
16:08:13 <Kathy> TOPIC:  New Techniques: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20140211misc/
16:08:19 <Joshue108> zakim, next item
16:08:19 <Zakim> agendum 1. "New Techniques: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20140211misc/" taken up [from Joshue108]
16:08:45 <Joshue108> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20140211misc/results#x2670
16:09:13 <Kathy> TOPIC:  New Technique: Using the track element to provide captions
16:09:13 <MichaelC> zakim, mute me
16:09:13 <Zakim> Michael_Cooper should now be muted
16:09:42 <Kathy> Joshue - three comments
16:10:50 <Kathy> AWK: Worry that the procedure is saying that you do that and you meet the success criteria.  We need to make sure that they have captions
16:11:36 <Kathy> Loretta: tried to capture the general requirements and this would be combined with how to do this in the specific technology
16:12:06 <Kathy> AWK: people going through the techniques people may not realize they need to look at the general technique as well.
16:12:30 <Kathy> Loretta: this information would be in the understanding doc and it would be an issue for other techniques as well
16:13:07 <Kathy> Joshue: accessibility of player controls is something we need to consider too
16:13:23 <AWK> Here's the How To Meet for 1.2.1: http://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG20/quickref/#qr-media-equiv-captions
16:13:31 <Zakim> +David_MacDonald
16:13:39 <Kathy> Loretta: the issue for the controls being accessible, we tried to separate the concerns because it gets complex
16:13:44 <Joshue108> s/we need to consider too
16:13:44 <Joshue108> 16:13/we may need to consider too
16:13:44 <Joshue108> 16:13
16:14:02 <Joshue108> s/16:13/
16:14:31 <David_> David_ has joined #wai-wcag
16:14:52 <Kathy> Loretta: may not be apparent that there are issues with HTML media element
16:15:53 <David_> rrsagent, make minutes
16:15:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/02/11-wai-wcag-minutes.html David_
16:16:13 <Kathy> AWK: may want to add an advisory note to remind people that they need to look at the captions and controls
16:16:31 <Kathy> Loretta: info is in the understanding document
16:17:04 <AWK> G87: http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/G87
16:17:41 <AWK> s/Meet for 1.2.1/Meet for 1.2.2
16:18:10 <Kathy> Loretta: caption track is covered under G87
16:18:46 <AWK> q+
16:18:50 <Kathy> Joshue: is there anything that we can give that would provide guidance for specific information
16:19:05 <Kathy> Loretta: we can add to this technique
16:19:16 <Kathy> Joshue: test procedure is clear
16:20:08 <Kathy> David: In the new technique, we may want to add to the test procedure about timing and captions
16:20:19 <Kathy> Loretta: that would go into the general technique
16:20:30 <Kathy> Loretta: this is an "and"
16:21:03 <David_> +1
16:21:27 <Joshue108> +q
16:21:30 <Kathy> AWK: should people go to how to meet to find this information
16:21:38 <Joshue108> ack awk
16:21:41 <Joshue108> ack jo
16:22:07 <AWK> ack me
16:22:07 <David_> q+
16:22:10 <Kathy> Loretta: the group could reconsider
16:22:32 <Kathy> Joshue: we don't want people coming to the techniques to have to do alot of digging
16:22:50 <Zakim> -Barry_Johnson
16:23:16 <Kathy> AWK: for the tool support, there is user agent notes in the technique
16:23:38 <Kathy> Loretta: we could add information for polyfills
16:23:45 <Zakim> +Barry_Johnson
16:24:01 <Kathy> Joshue: have used this a bit, anyone else have experience in this
16:24:10 <Kathy> AWK: this is an area that is in rapid flux
16:24:51 <Kathy> Joshue: do you still need polyfills
16:24:58 <Joshue108> ack dav
16:25:07 <Joshue108> zakim, queue?
16:25:07 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
16:25:35 <Kathy> David: there may be a simple way; for example, we could add information to the test procedure with link to the technique
16:26:29 <Kathy> Joshue:  This is something that we will come back to
16:26:56 <Kathy> Loretta: we need to revisit the understanding document where there are multiple techniques and see if we want to cross reference etc
16:27:33 <AWK> ISSUE: we need to revisit the understanding document where there are multiple techniques and see if we want to cross reference etc
16:27:33 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-16 - We need to revisit the understanding document where there are multiple techniques and see if we want to cross reference etc.  Please complete additional details at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/issues/16/edit>.
16:27:49 <Kathy> Joshue: this could help make the documents more accessible.  This will make it more usable
16:28:13 <Kathy> AWK:  the other item is a minor editorial
16:28:24 <Kathy> Loretta: that is a good edit
16:29:58 <Kathy> Joshue: the other comments we will come back when we talk about cross referencing
16:31:46 <Kathy> Loretta:  we should keep audio description and captions separate
16:31:59 <AWK> I see it now:  captions text tracks provide the dialogue and also include other sounds important to understanding the video. subtitles contain only the dialogue
16:32:14 <Kathy> Joshue: we should clarify the sentence "captions text tracks provide the dialogue and also include other sounds important to understanding the video"
16:32:23 <Kathy> Loretta:  we can add that to the work list
16:32:29 <AWK> Change to:  captions text tracks provide a text version of the dialogue and other sounds important to understanding the video. subtitles contain only the dialogue
16:32:53 <David_> include written record other sounds important to understanding
16:32:54 <Kathy> Joshue: make the change
16:33:25 <Kathy> Joshue: abou the line  If other audio information is important to understanding the video, a subtitle track will not be sufficient to meet the success criteria." Does this relate to use of subtitles for audio description? If so, this may be better as " does this refer to audio information
16:33:53 <Kathy> Loretta: this technique refers to captions, but says that subtitles will not be sufficient
16:34:28 <Kathy> AWK: sound effects are not needed in subtitles
16:34:48 <Kathy> David: does North America have the same definition for subitles
16:35:00 <wuwei> wuwei has joined #wai-wcag
16:35:01 <Kathy> David: we should include definition
16:35:09 <Kathy> AWK: there is a note for that
16:35:19 <Kathy> AWK: could refer to the WCAG glossary
16:36:30 <David_> Joshue can you describe AD as you understand it?
16:36:56 <Kathy> Joshue: any other comments?
16:37:00 <Joshue108> zakim, queue?
16:37:00 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
16:37:28 <Kathy> RESOLUTION:  accept as amended
16:37:37 <Kathy> TOPIC: New Technique: Using the track element to provide audio descriptions
16:37:37 <Joshue108> zakim, next item
16:37:37 <Zakim> agendum 2. "CSUN update – meeting confirmed" taken up [from Joshue108]
16:37:50 <Joshue108> zakim, take up item 1
16:37:50 <Zakim> agendum 1. "New Techniques: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20140211misc/" taken up [from Joshue108]
16:38:24 <Kathy> Loretta: this is an advisory technique
16:38:52 <Kathy> Andrew: same conversation about impacting how to meet
16:39:00 <Joshue108> zakim, mute me
16:39:00 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
16:39:19 <Joshue108> zakim, unmute me
16:39:19 <Zakim> Joshue should no longer be muted
16:40:42 <Kathy> AWK:  how does this meet 1.2.1
16:41:12 <Kathy> AWK: this is not providing the text alternative
16:41:24 <Kathy> Loretta: this is providing and audio description for the video
16:41:31 <Kathy> AWK: i agree
16:42:02 <Kathy> Joshue: Sailesh comment  - this is advisory
16:42:23 <Kathy> Joshue: my comments, is audio description generally sythesized
16:42:38 <Kathy> Loretta: this is the first instance
16:43:10 <Kathy> Joshue: had a few editorial edits
16:43:29 <AWK> regrets+ Kerstin Probiesch, James Nurthen, Michel Fitos
16:43:31 <David_> yes that is becoming more popular... synthesized AD
16:43:38 <Kathy> Joshue: confused about 1.2.7
16:44:17 <Kathy> Loretta: can create the descriptions, but you may have a longer description that what fits in the gap.
16:44:27 <Kathy> Joshue:  so you can extend the gap to make it fit
16:44:35 <Kathy> Loretta: yes
16:45:11 <Kathy> Loretta: could use ARIA live regions but not timed and there is no way pause
16:45:16 <Zakim> -Loretta
16:45:30 <Kathy> Joshue: clarify the language would help
16:46:09 <Joshue108> Note that it will be sufficient for 1.2.7 only if the user agent has the ability to stop the video to allow the extended audio description to fit
16:46:14 <Kathy> Joshue: what about this suggested text?
16:46:52 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:47:06 <Kathy> AWK: would this go into the status
16:47:34 <Loretta_> Loretta_ has joined #wai-wcag
16:47:42 <Kathy> Joshue: adding the word "fit" makes it clearer
16:48:19 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
16:48:24 <Kathy> AWK: it is in that status which means it is not in the technique.  Does this need to be a note under applicability
16:49:24 <Kathy> Joshue: take a look at the WIKI under status
16:49:45 <Loretta> Loretta has joined #wai-wcag
16:49:49 <Kathy> AWK: if we are approving the text, then we should put it in applicability
16:50:09 <Kathy> Joshue: if we approve then we will move to the applicability
16:50:27 <Loretta> I wonder if some IP has decided that I'm using too much bandwidth and decided to throttle me.
16:50:41 <Loretta> Welcome to the world of non-network-neutrality?
16:51:13 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:51:24 <Kathy> Joshue: do you agree with the changes?
16:52:12 <AWK> Note that it will be sufficient for 1.2.7 only if the user agent has the ability to pause the video to allow the extended audio description to play completely without overlapping other important audio in the primary program.
16:52:35 <Kathy> AWK: another option
16:52:48 <Ryladog> +1
16:53:03 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
16:53:15 <Kathy> David: likes the simplicity of AWK version
16:53:30 <Kathy> Joshue: like the indicator of the problem
16:53:53 <Loretta> am I still here? Lost skype again. :-(
16:54:23 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:55:22 <Kathy> Joshue: the second comment was more word smithing
16:55:50 <Kathy> Loretta: yes
16:55:55 <Kathy> Joshue: any objections
16:56:07 <Kathy> Joshue: hearing none, will make the edits
16:57:05 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
16:58:10 <Kathy> Joshue: last comment is on audio description cues
16:59:12 <Loretta_> Loretta_ has joined #WAI-WCAG
16:59:38 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
17:00:21 <Kathy> Joshue: should we add a bit about user experience
17:01:08 <Kathy> AWK: My change is in there now
17:01:46 <Kathy> Joshue: I suggest ignoring the last comment
17:02:21 <Kathy> Joshue: any objectives
17:02:28 <BarryJohnson> No sounds good
17:02:33 <Joshue108> zakim, queue?
17:02:33 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
17:02:44 <Joshue108> s/objectives/objections
17:02:48 <Kathy> RESOLUTION: accepted as amended
17:03:01 <Kathy> TOPIC: 3. New Failure: Failure of SC 1.4.2
17:03:27 <Kathy> AWK: two bullets are almost the same
17:04:26 <David_> refresh ... I have a comment
17:04:29 <Kathy> Loretta: should this just be an example of F23 or should it be a separate failure
17:04:30 <AWK> F23: http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/F23
17:05:13 <Kathy> David: i agree with that
17:05:19 <Kathy> Joshue: yes sounds ok
17:05:32 <Kathy> Joshue: would be one less failure
17:06:16 <Kathy> AWK: if it is separate, it would capture a specific issue.  Comes from the procedure which would be different from F23
17:06:33 <Kathy> Loretta: yes but it would get away from the wording issue
17:07:07 <Kathy> AWK: question about Why is the "muted" attribute a problem for 1.4.2?
17:07:25 <Kathy> AWK: so this did not seem necessary in the procedure
17:08:45 <Kathy> Joshue: could be both, stand on its own or combine
17:09:46 <Kathy> David: if it stands on its own, advantage that people are  thinking about playing sound so they may miss some details
17:09:52 <Kathy> Joshue: agree
17:10:06 <Kathy> Joshue: preference or objectives to keeping them separate
17:10:22 <Kathy> Loretta: no opinion
17:10:39 <Kathy> AWK: like them separate; enough details for it to be separate
17:10:58 <Kathy> AWK: can we flip 4 & 5
17:11:06 <Kathy> David: suggested some language
17:11:09 <Ryladog> +1
17:11:13 <Kathy> +1
17:11:24 <Kathy> Joshue: we will keep them separate
17:11:41 <Kathy> David: here is my comment
17:11:41 <Kathy> Perhaps make all the conditions of the test true... by making 4 and 5 like this
17:11:41 <Kathy> Check if the element is missing a muted attribute.
17:11:41 <Kathy> Check if a command or control to stop or pause the media element is missing.
17:12:35 <Kathy> Joshue: like the change and makes the expected results easier to parse
17:12:41 <Kathy> +1
17:12:43 <Joshue108> +1
17:12:48 <Ryladog> +1
17:12:57 <Kathleen> +1
17:13:24 <Kathy> AWK: instead of saying "is missing" ... say "does not have"
17:13:39 <Kathy> AWK: will edit the WIKI
17:14:05 <Kathy> Joshue: Kathleen had comment on failure example 1
17:14:43 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
17:15:01 <Kathy> Joshue: any objection to Kathleen's comment
17:15:06 <Ryladog> +1
17:15:17 <Kathy> Joshue: Andrew can you add the suggested text
17:15:23 <Loretta> Loretta has joined #WAI-WCAG
17:15:23 <Joshue108> and because there does not appear to be any controls to allow the user to stop the video
17:15:52 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
17:16:30 <Kathy> Loretta: no objection to the text change
17:17:59 <Kathy> Joshue: my comments refer to the custom controls text
17:18:29 <Kathy> Loretta: that makes sense
17:18:30 <Ryladog> +1
17:18:47 <Kathy> Joshue: change is in the description
17:18:51 <Kathy> +1
17:19:18 <Kathy> Joshue: also update the test procedure so the language mirrors the description
17:19:52 <Kathy> AWK: may be implied in this document
17:19:54 <Kathleen> LOL!
17:19:58 <Kathy> Joshue: just a suggestion
17:20:20 <Kathy> Joshue: David's suggestions have been added in the test procedure
17:20:32 <Kathy> Joshue: any objections?
17:20:54 <Kathy> RESOLUTION: accept as amended
17:21:11 <Joshue108> zakim, queue?
17:21:12 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
17:21:17 <Joshue108> zakim, next item
17:21:17 <Zakim> agendum 2. "CSUN update – meeting confirmed" taken up [from Joshue108]
17:21:20 <Kathy> TOPIC: CSUN
17:21:28 <Kathy> AWK: we will have a face to face on Tuesday
17:21:34 <Kathy> AWK: we have not picked the time
17:22:05 <Kathy> AWK: are people planning other activities like the keynote
17:22:20 <Kathy> The keynote is a 6pm
17:22:41 <Kathy> AWK:  9-5
17:23:31 <Kathy> AWK: we have logistics and agenda to figure out
17:23:44 <Kathy> AWK: proposed agenda will be next week
17:24:08 <Kathy> Katie: question, will we still have the call?
17:24:20 <Kathy> AWK: we will have remote access by phone
17:25:57 <Joshue108> zakim, next item
17:25:57 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Techniques planning and expectations for working group members" taken up [from Joshue108]
17:26:11 <Kathy> TOPIC:  Techniques planning
17:26:28 <Kathy> Joshue: major need for techniques and for the working group to create techniques
17:26:49 <Kathy> Joshue: we divert some of our time to creating techniques
17:27:12 <Kathy> Joshue: encourage people to create techniques and contribute
17:27:26 <David_> q+
17:27:29 <Kathy> q+
17:27:39 <Joshue108> ack dav
17:28:10 <Kathy> David: government of Canada is on GitHub so they can create techniques
17:28:30 <Kathy> AWK: before you do that, we need to provide the struture and XML structure
17:28:49 <Kathy> AWK: we need to get that in place first
17:29:02 <Kathy> Joshue: get the group up to speed on that
17:30:23 <Kathy> AWK: to add to the this, we have the outside group on the techniques task force but we need other techniques from mobile and congitive.  Everyone should be working on and contributing to 3 techniques for each 6 month cycle.
17:30:45 <Kathy> AWK: people will sign up for techniques
17:31:28 <Kathy> AWK: we can connect people for the technical parts if people are not comfortable
17:31:29 <Joshue108> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Techniques/ToDo
17:31:43 <Joshue108> ack kathy
17:32:09 <AWK> Kathy: make sure to invite the TFs to any training on technique writing.
17:32:51 <AWK> regrets+ Peter Thiessen
17:33:07 <AWK> Scribe: AWK
17:33:16 <Zakim> -Kathy_Wahlbin
17:33:41 <AWK> LGR: the "toDo" page is a listing of proposed technique, some are assigned to people already
17:34:15 <AWK> LGR: there are many techniques claimed by a small number of people
17:34:21 <AWK> q+
17:34:29 <Joshue108> ack AWK
17:35:16 <David_> q+
17:35:25 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
17:35:26 <Joshue108> AWK: We need to structure this list a little better. We can mail people when its ready. Please just look at it, and make a note of what you are interested in.
17:35:28 <Ryladog> q+
17:35:39 <Joshue108> ack dav
17:35:44 <Joshue108> ack ryla
17:36:09 <Joshue108> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Scribe_List
17:37:01 <BarryJohnson> Are there instructions on how to scribe and what steps are needed to capture all of the elements of the minutes?
17:37:12 <Zakim> -Joshue
17:37:13 <Zakim> -Michael_Cooper
17:37:14 <Zakim> -Katie_Haritos-Shea
17:37:16 <Zakim> -Kathleen
17:37:20 <Zakim> -Marc_Johlic
17:37:22 <Zakim> -David_MacDonald
17:38:01 <Zakim> -Barry_Johnson
17:38:20 <AWK_> AWK_ has joined #wai-wcag
17:38:27 <AWK_> Zakim, list attendees
17:38:27 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Joshue, AWK, Barry_Johnson, Kathleen, Kathy_Wahlbin, Katie_Haritos-Shea, Loretta, Michael_Cooper, Marc_Johlic, David_MacDonald, [IPcaller]
17:38:41 <AWK_> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:38:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/02/11-wai-wcag-minutes.html AWK_
17:39:14 <AWK_> Trackbot, end meeting
17:39:14 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
17:39:14 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Joshue, AWK, Barry_Johnson, Kathleen, Kathy_Wahlbin, Katie_Haritos-Shea, Loretta, Michael_Cooper, Marc_Johlic, David_MacDonald, [IPcaller]
17:39:22 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:39:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/02/11-wai-wcag-minutes.html trackbot
17:39:23 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
17:39:23 <RRSAgent> I see no action items