IRC log of hcls on 2014-02-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:58:59 [RRSAgent]
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15:58:59 [RRSAgent]
logging to
15:59:05 [ericP]
Zakim, this will be hcls
15:59:05 [Zakim]
ok, ericP, I see SW_HCLS()11:00AM already started
15:59:33 [Zakim]
15:59:37 [ericP]
Zakim, who is here?
15:59:37 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Kerstin_Forsberg, ericP
15:59:38 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, TallTed, mscottm, egonw, ericP
16:04:19 [Zakim]
+ +1.469.226.aaaa
16:09:57 [Zakim]
16:11:29 [ericP]
topic: ont review
16:12:31 [ericP]
claud: reviewed josh's FHIR and O-RIM with an eye towards using it for clinical decision support
16:12:56 [ericP]
... wanted what could be leveraged for use in a CDS ontology
16:13:24 [ericP]
... RIM's need for interop lead to a closed model with many constraints.
16:13:34 [ericP]
... O-RIM's terminology is particular to RIM.
16:13:54 [ericP]
... I had planned on an ontology designed for a more open world
16:14:15 [ericP]
... using SKOS/DC rather than RIM
16:14:37 [ericP]
... the philosophy is a bit different:
16:15:37 [ericP]
... .. getting interop in key aspects of use cases leads to a very controlled expression which won't meet arbitrary new use cases.
16:16:24 [Claude]
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16:16:48 [ericP]
... .. alternatively, design with a set of principles which can allow extenders to get interop when possible but still extend in new ways when needed
16:17:07 [ericP]
... O-RIM has lots of classes which are designed by intersection.
16:20:09 [ericP]
ericP: right, RIM's real ontology code is in implementation guidelines which re-use the six for classes and the e.g. source/target constraints for particular ActRelationship codes
16:20:38 [ericP]
Claude: for example, you could have an obs with multiple codes, but that confuses interop
16:21:14 [ericP]
... alternative, e.g. frequency superProperty which is partitioned into basically incomaptible specialized frequencies
16:22:53 [Claude]
Standards are intended to reduce people's choices. The strength of the semantic web is that there is both a social and technical aspect to it. The technical aspect permits non-ambiguity. The social aspect allows one to leverage what exists on the web to develop their own ontologies.
16:24:10 [Claude]
The standard is released to meet some use cases but this has a very long tail. Because standards are slow to develop, you often take too long to get something in people's hands or the standard does not meet anyone's needs. By developing an ontology that is more open world, you can better address the long tail but you are less able to constrain this ontology.
16:25:47 [Claude]
E.g., extensions of SKOS vocabularies for terminology. The problem with this approach is that it can become chaotic with people creating concepts that can no longer properly support inferencing or that are semantically inaccurate.
16:26:21 [Claude]
Need some professional governance to ensure that there is some order in this process. There are systems that exist to support this. For instance, Web Protege, Drupal, etc....
16:26:22 [Zakim]
16:26:35 [mike_denny]
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16:27:00 [Claude]
That is, encourage discussion among participants to support proper review of proposed concepts and relationships.
16:28:04 [Claude]
To develop a CDS ontology could take many years, so an open world with crowd sourcing and review may reduce the chaos in this process.
16:28:50 [Claude]
This may allow more flexibility in its development. However, some governance needs to be in place.
16:29:59 [Claude]
E.g., someone proposes a concept. It is reviewed to ensure (1) it does not already exist, (2) it is semantically 'correct', (3) it is placed in its proper place in the hierarchy.
16:30:42 [Claude]
Need to be concerned with the following:
16:31:41 [Claude]
You may propose concepts but these need to be reviewed
16:32:16 [Claude]
Write deviations from core or everyone collaborates to form ontology
16:32:49 [Claude]
This requires sufficient expertise among the reviewer to ensure that the ontology is sound.
16:33:08 [Claude]
That the ontology is inferenceable
16:33:21 [Claude]
Group collaborates to define the ontology
16:33:45 [Claude]
Another group (the 'board') validates and 'approves' the changes.
16:35:14 [Claude]
UMLS has website that allows folks to propose concepts/synonyms and then these are reviewed and possibly incorporated.
16:35:39 [Claude]
UMLS is versioned and different versions may hold a different set of concepts.
16:35:49 [Claude]
Problem arises during splitting of concepts.
16:36:33 [Claude]
It forces folks to identify where concept is used and which new one should be used if they decide to adopt this version of the terminology.
16:39:02 [ericP]
Claude: if you look at HL7's coded value, you have [ codeSystem(OID), code, ...]
16:39:17 [ericP]
... this could easily be represented as an extension to skos
16:39:51 [ericP]
... the disease hierarchy in SNOMED has e.g. broader, narrower, related
16:40:08 [ericP]
... (potential transitive)
16:40:31 [ericP]
... emphasema narrowerThan lungDisease narrowerThan disease.
16:40:48 [ericP]
... vs. emphasema relatedTo smoking
16:41:41 [ericP]
... so use skos as a core with a set of extensions validated by domain experts as being correct and meeting valuable use cases [bang for the buck]
16:42:19 [ericP]
... so when you working with this, you're extending a solid, well-thought-out core
16:43:23 [ericP]
-> example of the coded values mentioned above
16:44:02 [ericP]
kirsten: important to work toghether with existing standards orgs
16:44:40 [ericP]
... in bioportal, we're working with an old version of MeDRA because we didn't push the skos back
16:47:55 [Claude]
Some ontologies were very pure but do not meet any use cases. More concrete ontologies that meet particular use cases may thus be favored.
16:48:39 [Claude]
Some ontologies are more arcane but they are arcane because they needed to solve a particular challenge that a cleaner ontology may not have anticipated.
16:50:29 [Claude]
The 'agile' vs 'waterfall' - build around the use cases vs build to meet a theoretical optimum but without field validation.
16:52:58 [Claude]
Core ontology for key clinical concepts such as observation, procedure, etc...
16:53:05 [Claude]
Data types
16:53:05 [egonw]
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16:53:09 [Claude]
Some key libraries
16:53:25 [Claude]
At the bottom are ontologies for each of the therapeutic areas
16:54:01 [Claude]
They are basically subclasses of observations, assessments, etc... but they are particular to the domain - e.g., more 'Detailed Clinical Models'
16:54:21 [Claude]
They reside in the therapeutic ontology
16:55:09 [Claude]
Some of these concepts may be leveraged by other ontologies for different purposes
16:55:33 [Claude]
This process may break things as concepts are moved from one ontology to another but allows a healthy 'refactoring' over time.
16:55:46 [Zakim]
16:56:07 [Claude]
Progressive elaboration could really benefit a CDS ontology.
17:02:53 [Claude]
Need to write documentation for our implementation and have people reuse ontology and governance model. This will encourage FDA to enhance their ontologies with additional Therapeutic Areas.
17:06:48 [egonw_]
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17:07:57 [mike_denny]
Request to group members: I am preparing a rationale statement for including RDF/OWL provisions in a healthcare information system. I am trying to pull together a fairly exhaustive list of where RDF and OWL are being used today in healthcare related applications, tools, services, research initiatives, or other resources. If you aware of any listings or specific examples that you can point me toward, please forward to or the HCLS fo[CUT]
17:08:33 [Zakim]
17:14:59 [ericP]
17:20:46 [Zakim]
- +1.469.226.aaaa
17:20:47 [Zakim]
17:20:47 [Zakim]
17:20:48 [Zakim]
SW_HCLS()11:00AM has ended
17:20:48 [Zakim]
Attendees were Kerstin_Forsberg, ericP, +1.469.226.aaaa, [IPcaller], Mike_Denny
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18:09:44 [mscottm]
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19:53:42 [ericP]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
19:53:42 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ericP
19:53:49 [ericP]
RRSAgent, please make log world-visible
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