15:01:37 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
15:01:37 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/02/10-aria-irc
15:01:39 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
15:01:39 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aria
15:01:41 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
15:01:41 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see WAI_PFWG(ARIA)10:00AM already started
15:01:42 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
15:01:42 <trackbot> Date: 10 February 2014
15:01:55 <Zakim> +??P1
15:01:58 <MichaelC> MichaelC has joined #aria
15:02:25 <MichaelC> zakim, ??P1 is Michael_Cooper
15:02:25 <Zakim> +Michael_Cooper; got it
15:02:27 <MichaelC> zakim, mute me
15:02:27 <Zakim> Michael_Cooper should now be muted
15:02:33 <richardschwerdtfeger> chair: Rich
15:02:40 <richardschwerdtfeger> meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Caucus
15:02:51 <MichaelC> zakim, ??p13 is Janina_Sajka
15:02:51 <Zakim> +Janina_Sajka; got it
15:03:02 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, make log public
15:03:51 <mattking> mattking has joined #aria
15:04:00 <Zakim> +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
15:04:10 <jongunderson> jongunderson has joined #aria
15:04:11 <clown> clown has joined #aria
15:04:22 <Zakim> +joanie
15:04:36 <Zakim> +Matt_King
15:04:49 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
15:05:04 <clown> zakim GVoice has Joseph_Scheuhammer
15:05:10 <clown> zakim, GVoice has Joseph_Scheuhammer
15:05:10 <Zakim> +Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it
15:05:17 <clown> zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer
15:05:17 <Zakim> sorry, clown, I do not see a party named 'Joseph_Scheuhammer'
15:05:44 <Zakim> +Jon_Gunderson
15:06:30 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Feb/0021.html
15:07:12 <MichaelC> ack me
15:07:54 <Stefan> Stefan has joined #aria
15:08:38 <richardschwerdtfeger> scribe: Matt
15:08:42 <MichaelC> zakim, Gvoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer
15:08:42 <Zakim> +Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it
15:08:50 <mattking> scribe: mattking
15:09:11 <mattking> TOPIC: call time change reminder
15:09:32 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minues', clown.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:09:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/02/10-aria-minutes.html clown
15:10:27 <mattking> Reminder that call time changes on Feb 17 to 1 PM US eastern.
15:10:40 <mattking> TOPIC: Epub update
15:11:17 <mattking> A subgroup working on epub structural semantics starts next week.
15:11:38 <mattking> JS: is aria 1.1 or 2.0 time frame
15:11:46 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://www.idpf.org/epub/vocab/structure/
15:11:54 <mattking> Janina: When the module is ready; could be either.
15:12:08 <mattking> RS: significant amount of work is already completed.
15:12:19 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #aria
15:13:06 <Zakim> +James_Craig
15:13:22 <jcraig> Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:13:22 <Zakim> On the phone I see Janina_Sajka, Stefan_Schnabel, Michael_Cooper, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, joanie, Matt_King, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Jon_Gunderson, James_Craig
15:13:26 <Zakim> Joseph_Scheuhammer has Joseph_Scheuhammer
15:13:26 <mattking> TOPIC: Graphics module
15:15:21 <mattking> RS: Edupub is a conference. They are working an extension to what is used in epub for graphics.
15:16:48 <mattking> RS: another WAI taskforce is working on a graphics modeule for ARIA, probably 2.0 time frame.
15:17:46 <jongunderson> Hopefully they can make the testing sites more accessible too
15:18:06 <jongunderson> We have lots of problems with accommodations with these testing services
15:18:36 <mattking> TOPIC: ARIA 1.0 moving to recommendation
15:19:06 <MichaelC> ack me
15:19:07 <mattking> Janina: we have 4 votes in
15:19:25 <mattking> Janina: Encourage reps to vote.
15:19:37 <mattking> JS: how many are we waiting for.
15:19:59 <MichaelC> zakim, mute me
15:19:59 <Zakim> Michael_Cooper should now be muted
15:20:06 <MichaelC> ack me
15:20:14 <mattking> Michael: the more we get the more it helps with transition. Fewer than 10, could be problematic.
15:20:31 <MichaelC> zakim, mute me
15:20:31 <Zakim> Michael_Cooper should now be muted
15:20:48 <MichaelC> ack me
15:25:06 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/348
15:25:20 <mattking> TOPIC: Providing a role alternative to presentation
15:25:21 <jcraig> q+
15:26:00 <jcraig> q+ to talk about the work involved in deprecating an ARIA 1.0 role name
15:27:03 <jongunderson> q+
15:27:11 <clown> q+
15:29:19 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
15:29:40 <jcraig> ack me
15:29:40 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to talk about the work involved in deprecating an ARIA 1.0 role name
15:30:12 <mattking> RS: We want to avoid people using aria-label="" to achieve A11y API  omission
15:31:17 <mattking> JC: Any new role should have a fall back 1.0 role.
15:31:35 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
15:31:36 <mattking> JC: example: role="none presentation"
15:31:57 <mattking> JC: that would work against the goal of having a shorter token.
15:33:10 <mattking> Rich previously mentioned that role="presentation" is is a long enough string to effect download times on pages where it is used 1000s of times. So, a shorter string is desirable.
15:33:40 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
15:33:41 <jcraig> role="<% role %>"
15:34:07 <jcraig> role=""
15:34:34 <jcraig> aria-label=""
15:34:46 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
15:35:06 <mattking> JC: role="" as one of the options caries some risk; it could lead to accidental role presentation.
15:35:34 <mattking> JG: Meaningful role names are very important to ensure authors understand.
15:35:38 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
15:36:40 <mattking> JG: People read the spec and interpret the spec based on the name of the role rather by reading the spec.
15:37:18 <mattking> JG: I suggest using terms that are meaningful to people based on their use elsewhere, e.g., inline or block
15:37:27 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
15:37:35 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack jongunderson
15:38:10 <clown> <table role="contents" ...
15:38:37 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
15:39:15 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
15:39:43 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack clown
15:40:16 <mattking> JS: I see the problem is that the author does not recognize that the content is  exposed whereas semantics is not. The primary issue is one of author understanding. We need a name that clearly expresses that only content is exposed.
15:40:20 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+
15:41:00 <mattking> JS: So I propose somethng like role="content".
15:41:51 <mattking> RS: Would we entertain some way of having abbreviations.
15:42:03 <clown> s/somethng like role="content"/something like role="contents"/
15:44:24 <mattking> JC: Using names like block or inline seem more vague because you could have a role block styled as inline, for example.
15:44:32 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
15:44:32 <clown> q?
15:44:39 <richardschwerdtfeger> ach richardschwerdtfeger
15:44:45 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack richardschwerdtfeger
15:45:27 <mattking> Stephan: Role presentation does not add to understanding because everything is "presented" on a page.
15:45:28 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
15:45:32 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+
15:46:20 <mattking> Stephan: There should be some other more clear english term.
15:46:37 <clown> From the spec for the presentation role:  "An element whose implicit native role semantics will not be mapped to the accessibility API."
15:46:58 <clown> "The intended use is when an element is used to change the look of the page but does not have all the functional, interactive, or structural relevance implied by the element type"
15:47:02 <mattking> Stephan: I also do not  recommend reusing terms like block, inline, div, etc as that will add to the confusion.
15:47:03 <clown> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/roles#presentation
15:47:34 <clown> <table role="layout" ...
15:47:45 <mattking> s/stephan/stefan/
15:48:02 <clown> <img role="layout"  vs. <img role="decorative".
15:48:57 <jcraig> q+ to mention role="none/null/generic" (the block or inline style could affect final output to API like it does on div/span)
15:49:41 <mattking> MK: Is one possible approach to narrow the use and then add other roles to cover other use cases.
15:50:04 <mattking> RS: Originally role presentation was not intended for images, for example.
15:50:21 <jcraig> ack me
15:50:21 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to mention role="none/null/generic" (the block or inline style could affect final output to API like it does on div/span)
15:50:22 <richardschwerdtfeger> ach richardschwerdtfeger
15:50:28 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack richardschwerdtfeger
15:51:22 <mattking> JC: role="none" or role="null" is similar in my mind to role="generic", which is a bit long.
15:51:50 <mattking> JC: I have issues with something like block or inline bacause it ties us to a layout style.
15:52:01 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
15:53:14 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
15:53:21 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+
15:55:10 <jcraig> q+
15:55:32 <jcraig> ack ri
15:55:33 <mattking> RS: In future, should we consider whether the layout is actually important.
15:56:00 <mattking> RS: and would the term layout be appropriate in other host language semantics
15:56:49 <mattking> JC: We still know about position on page even if the role is null or generic.
15:56:51 <jcraig> ack me
15:58:03 <mattking> RS: Because everything in SVG is persistent, we do not want to mapp every element unlessthe element has accessibility semantics. So, in SVG, none could mean leave it out.
16:00:00 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
16:00:06 <jongunderson> q+
16:01:43 <jcraig> q+
16:01:52 <jcraig> ack jon
16:02:31 <mattking> JG: Would there be any restrictions on the use of role="none"
16:02:47 <mattking> JG: e.g., would we allow on headings.
16:03:15 <mattking> JC: No restriction, we are not looking for a new meaning of the role but instead just a syninom
16:04:38 <Zakim> -Joseph_Scheuhammer
16:05:10 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
16:05:18 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+
16:05:22 <clown> zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer
16:05:22 <Zakim> +Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it
16:07:08 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
16:07:22 <jcraig> ack me
16:07:27 <jcraig> ack r
16:07:30 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack richardschwerdtfeger
16:07:40 <mattking> RS: where does this discussion leave us:
16:08:33 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
16:08:40 <mattking> RS: Layout is a problem, "" is problematic. Is there is consensus on the meaning of none?
16:09:33 <mattking> JG: Can role none only be used to override native semantics?
16:10:31 <mattking> JG: if you can multiple roles, then what would happen  if none is specified as a fallback role?
16:10:54 <mattking> JC: Maybe that should be an author error.
16:11:58 <mattking> RS: Doesn't ARIA do exactly that for all roles, override native semantics:
16:12:23 <mattking> JG? There is a difference between overriding vs removing.
16:16:16 <mattking> More discussion of need for training to ensure correct usage vs a general tendancy to cause misunderstanding. Even a11y experts have misinterpreted role presentation as meaning that it is left out of the tree completely.
16:20:55 <mattking> MK: do we need to look at spec to examine the meaning of multiple roles. It is not clear to me thatmultiple roles means fallback and that it is not additive.
16:22:12 <mattking> JC: The role attribute in ARIA is an order token list; it is not like a class list.
16:23:20 <mattking> JC: For ARIA 1.1, we need to test fall back to ensure that role="none presentation" results in roole="presentation" to support legacy aria 1.0 support in browsers.
16:23:38 <mattking> JC: Have most objectives to role="none" fallen away.
16:24:38 <mattking> JS: It is still not my preference, but I do not have a better suggestion.
16:25:27 <mattking> JD: what should we reconsider how <img role="none" alt="foo"> is handled?
16:26:04 <jcraig> If an element with a role of presentation is focusable, user agents MUST ignore the normal effect of the role and expose the element with implicit native semantics, in order to ensure that the element is both understandable and operable. Authors SHOULD NOT provide meaningful alternative text (for example, use alt="" in HTML4) when the presentation role is applied to an image.
16:26:34 <mattking> RS: what about <img role="none" aria-label="foo">
16:26:51 <mattking> RS: should be author error.
16:27:03 <mattking> JC: Spec already calls it out as an error.
16:27:42 <jcraig> <input value="foo" role="none">
16:27:47 <mattking> RS: nothing in html5  that says alt text must be rendered
16:28:11 <jcraig> <input value="foo" disabled>
16:28:50 <jcraig> <input value="foo" disabled role="text">
16:31:20 <jongunderson> 1+
16:31:20 <Zakim> -James_Craig
16:31:25 <clown> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/roles#presentation
16:32:33 <mattking> ACTION: jcraig Add role none to spec
16:32:34 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1383 - Add role none to spec [on James Craig - due 2014-02-17].
16:32:38 <jongunderson> bye
16:32:42 <MichaelC> ack me
16:32:43 <Zakim> -Jon_Gunderson
16:32:48 <mattking> rrsagent, make minutes
16:32:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/02/10-aria-minutes.html mattking
16:32:59 <Zakim> -Stefan_Schnabel
16:33:02 <Zakim> -joanie
16:33:03 <Zakim> -Janina_Sajka
16:33:03 <Zakim> -Rich_Schwerdtfeger
16:33:05 <Zakim> -Joseph_Scheuhammer
16:33:09 <mattking> zakim, bye
16:33:09 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were Stefan_Schnabel, Michael_Cooper, Janina_Sajka, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, joanie, Matt_King, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Jon_Gunderson, James_Craig
16:33:09 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria
16:33:32 <mattking> rrsagent, make minutes
16:33:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/02/10-aria-minutes.html mattking
16:44:23 <clown> clown has joined #aria