17:53:44 RRSAgent has joined #ua 17:53:44 logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/01/30-ua-irc 17:54:01 rrsaent, set logs public 17:54:09 rrsagent, set logs public 17:54:16 rrsagent, make minutes 17:54:16 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/01/30-ua-minutes.html allanj 17:55:56 kford has joined #ua 17:56:20 Agenda+ Review comments 17:56:28 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started 17:56:35 +[Microsoft] 17:56:45 zakim, microsoft is kford 17:56:45 +kford; got it 17:58:09 +Jeanne 17:59:33 Greg has joined #ua 17:59:47 zakim, who is here? 17:59:47 On the phone I see kford, Jeanne 17:59:48 On IRC I see Greg, kford, RRSAgent, allanj, jeanne, Zakim, trackbot 18:00:27 +Jim_Allan 18:00:50 +Greg_Lowney 18:00:52 Jan has joined #ua 18:00:58 zakim, code? 18:00:58 the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), Jan 18:01:30 +[IPcaller] 18:02:36 zakim, IPcaller is Jan 18:02:36 +Jan; got it 18:02:55 +Eric 18:03:40 Eric has joined #ua 18:04:07 zakim, [IPcaller] is really Jan 18:04:07 sorry, Jan, I do not recognize a party named '[IPcaller]' 18:06:32 zakim, agenda? 18:06:32 I see 2 items remaining on the agenda: 18:06:33 2. review comments - [from kford] 18:06:33 4. Review comments [from allanj] 18:06:54 zakim, close item 4 18:06:54 agendum 4, Review comments, closed 18:06:55 I see 1 item remaining on the agenda: 18:06:55 2. review comments - [from kford] 18:07:03 zakim, open item 2 18:07:03 agendum 2. "review comments -" taken up [from kford] 18:07:20 http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2014/LCcomments.html 18:16:05 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2014JanMar/0019.html 18:16:18 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2014JanMar/0015.html 18:17:19 scribe: allanj 18:17:31 -> http://www.w3.org/2014/01/23-ua-minutes.html#item03 Minutes discussing Silas comments 18:17:43 topic: SB02: 1.8.7 18:18:28 gl: jan was talking about changing to reflowable text rather than reflowable content 18:21:28 ja: the comment is concerned with top-level-viewport (TLVP) 18:21:39 Current wording: 1.8.7 Reflow Text: The user can specify that text content in a graphical top-level viewport reflows so the text forms a single column that fits within the width of the viewport. (Level A) 18:21:52 ... if we remove TLPV does that solve the problem, or make more problem 18:22:59 gl: previous suggestion, clarify in the applicability notes. "When we refer to TLVP we mean all of the elements within the viewport" 18:25:34 In the top-level applicability notes we could have something like "WHen this document refers to things 'in' an element, structure, or viewport, it includes elements within the entire descendant structure (e.g. 'text inside a table' also includes text within a span within the table)." ? 18:26:32 js: problem with this. know example is the table. but could destroy the readability if the page is a spreadsheet (data table), and all relations are destroyed. 18:27:24 ... seems we could make things worse. 18:27:35 kf: did we mean for this to include tables 18:28:52 jr: we don't mean we want redrawing a table, just squishing it. this is what happens now 18:29:19 ... this works for text, but images present limit on squishability 18:29:41 ... we are not saying reflow a table, only reflow the text in a table. 18:31:42 jr: in content with absolute values we want a mode where use can override 18:32:42 js: this came from EO to change magazine layouts (multicolumn) to single column. 18:32:57 ... pdf does not do this. 18:33:11 jr: assign an action 18:33:54 js: invite silas for more info? 18:35:33 topic: SB03 - 1.8.11 18:35:48 Action Jan: Develop response to Silas comment on 1.8.7(reflow text) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2014JanMar/0015.html 18:35:48 Created ACTION-938 - Develop response to silas comment on 1.8.7(reflow text) http://lists.w3.org/archives/public/w3c-wai-ua/2014janmar/0015.html [on Jan Richards - due 2014-02-06]. 18:36:15 SB03: Re 1.8.11 (Allow Top-Level Viewport Open on Request) it might also be worth explicitly stating that, if the user performs some action whose normal meaning is "open link in new tab" (for example, middle-click on some browsers) then it should be possible for users to specify that such actions must ALWAYS perform that meaning, and cannot be overridden by the page author. Some Javascript... 18:36:16 ..."onClick" events manage to (accidentally) override middle-clicks and cause something to happen on the current page instead of opening a new tab. (In many cases this can be worked around by right-clicking on the link and selecting "open in new tab", instead of middle-clicking, but that can be extra effort and it's an annoyance.) 18:37:10 ja: thought middle click controlled by mouse not the browser. 18:39:05 ja: this sounds like a new SC. Persistance of behavior setting, for each website or across all websites. 18:39:40 GCL: I agree with the sentiment but unfortunately as you say those non-standard behaviors are usually implemented in Javascript, so the user agent may not be able to interfere in any reliable way other than by blocking scripts altogether. (It could fail a script's calls to the function that opens a new top-level viewport, but it can't force the script to make such a call.) 18:39:42 GCL: For the working group, what would we expect the user agent to do if the user has said content can't open new top-level viewports, then the user clicks a control that is explicitly to do so? Should the script's call to open a new tab simply fail? Should the user agent warn the user, so as to explain why their click isn't working? I don't think it should, for example, simply take the link... 18:39:43 ...in the current viewport, as that could break some scripts. 18:40:30 Current wording: 1.8.11 Allow Top-Level Viewport Open on Request: The user can specify whether author content can open new top-level viewports (e.g. windows or tabs). (Level AA) 18:40:31 gl: when action opens a new viewport, don't want a script to open a new tab 18:41:12 js: saying if user sets a mapping for some action, then don't let the author override the mapping 18:44:44 js: this seems to be related to 2.3.5 18:46:20 gl: or 2.8.2 18:46:34 s/2.8.2/2.8.1 18:48:55 ja: middle click - open link in new tab works in IE, FF, Chrome 18:50:45 js: what is the generalization not just for middle click. 18:50:53 gl: explains his comment 18:51:43 A) we could use my proposed response above, or b) we could add an SC saying that the user agent should not allow scripts to override default inputs which are associated with a specific list of actions, such as opening a link in a new tab. However, I don't favor the latter. 18:52:56 gregs response: I agree with the sentiment but unfortunately as you say those non-standard behaviors are usually implemented in Javascript, so the user agent may not be able to interfere in any reliable way other than by blocking scripts altogether. (It could fail a script's calls to the function that opens a new top-level viewport, but it can't force the script to make such a call.) 18:54:11 rrsagent, make minutes 18:54:11 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/01/30-ua-minutes.html jeanne 18:54:55 jr: there are special cases where sites could not over-ride specific actions (ALT-D address bar) 18:55:07 gl: could come up with a list... 18:55:09 It seems a daunting task to create a list of commands that scripts should not be allowed to override, and the list would ideally change over time and between products. 18:55:31 ja: seems prescriptive 18:56:42 2.3.5 was the SC that refers to "conventional bindings for the operating environment (e.g. arrow keys for navigating within menus)". 18:57:21 jr: order of keypress - OS, browser, javascript, etc 18:58:59 jr: 2.3.5 and others give conflicting advice. 18:59:34 kf: the lowest common denominator wins. the OS could say, I will take all input. 19:00:15 ... the goal is for applications to play well together 19:01:13 jr: browser could reveal UI of a page 19:01:37 jr: could we extend 2.3.5 to include mouse and gestures? 19:02:11 kf: why if I am a UA developer, should I have to do this. The OS should handle it. 19:02:49 jr: if someone does a keyboard remapping at the OS level. then user doesn't need to do it in the UA 19:04:12 kf: we may have over reached. 19:06:37 kf: if I hit alt I and want it to be alt J, you can only remap commands within the user interface. 19:07:26 kf: but 2.3.5 says any key combination can be remapped. 19:07:43 Keytweak remapper for Windows: http://core.ecu.edu/psyc/wuenschk/Help/KeyTweak.htm 19:07:54 ... do we expect UA to allow its UI to be remapped to what ever keys necessary. 19:10:06 ***regroup*** 19:10:14 gregs response: I agree with the sentiment but unfortunately as you say those non-standard behaviors are usually implemented in Javascript, so the user agent may not be able to interfere in any reliable way other than by blocking scripts altogether. (It could fail a script's calls to the function that opens a new top-level viewport, but it can't force the script to make such a call.) 19:11:28 Resolution: Reject comment, per gregs response: I agree with the sentiment but unfortunately as you say those non-standard behaviors are usually implemented in Javascript, so the user agent may not be able to interfere in any reliable way other than by blocking scripts altogether. (It could fail a script's calls to the function that opens a new top-level viewport, but it can't force the... 19:11:29 ...script to make such a call.) 19:11:36 FYI: And keyboard remapping on Android http://www.howtogeek.com/175267/the-htg-guide-to-using-a-bluetooth-keyboard-with-your-android-device/ 19:14:52 Topic: SB04 - 2.6 19:15:50 SB04: Re 2.6 - I think there definitely needs to be some easily-accessible switch to temporarily STOP all event handlers, then start them again later. Some websites have badly-implemented scripts that try to do fancy things as you move the mouse over elements, and these play badly with user stylesheets. For example, eBay's feedback mechanism can go horribly wrong at very large zoom levels.... 19:15:51 ... You move the mouse over the "5 star" rating, but as you do so, it adds an extra element into the text, causing the whole thing to reflow (the designers weren't expecting it to reflow - they didn't think it might be zoomed), and the reflow takes the star somewhere else so it is no longer under the mouse pointer, and this causes another event, undoing the first event, but then the star is... 19:15:53 ...again under the pointer, and so on ... result is a rapidly-flickering control, and less than 50/50 chance of it being activated when you click. Only workaround is to zoom out or increase the window size, but I wish I had a button that says "stop all event handlers until my next click" (bonus points if the user agent can AUTOMATICALLY detect the "rapid-fire" situation and turn them off... 19:15:54 ...until the next click). 19:16:12 greg comment: SC 2.11.3 already requires the user be able to turn off scripts, but it does not require that it be easy or convenient (nor that it be specific to a the current top-level viewport). That could potentially be added as a separate, lower-level SC, but I'm not sure how we'd say what is required to be convenient. By the way, your example is a good one that we could add to the... 19:16:14 ...Implementing document. 19:19:49 ja: this is not just a problem with scripts, but also CSS. Example of bold link on hover, bold takes more space causing text to shift, moving link from mouse, so link becomes unbold, but then is under mouse and becomes bold...repeat...nice flicker 19:20:35 gl: 1.7.3 allow tuning off author css 19:20:55 Problems caused by behaviors in author-provided stylesheets (e.g. links getting larger when hovered over) can be disabled by 1.7.3 Disable Author Stylesheets. 19:21:53 This requires point of regard to be maintained when the user turns styles on or off: 1.8.6 Maintain Point of Regard: The point of regard remains visible and at the same location within the viewport when the viewport is resized, when content is zoomed or scaled, or when content formatting is changed. (Level A) 19:24:06 ja: are 3 comments on 2.6.1 19:24:18 chrome says it can't be done. 19:24:23 gregs response 19:24:25 GCL: In this case the success criteria is actually limited to "recognized input methods explicitly associated with an element", so the user agent is not expected to present the user with a list that includes every possible event being handled by a global event listener, if the specific technology does not allow it to tell which specific events are being watched for. However, if the user... 19:24:26 ...agent can tell, for a given element, which events are being listened for by a element-specific, container element, or global listeners, it should be able to make this list available to the user. If you still feel this is a problem could you please 19:25:17 elaborate 19:26:19 gl: the script has to register with the browser what it wants to listen to. it could be a generic listener, or specific. 19:27:10 +1 to GCL's response on CR06 19:29:05 Resolution: CR06. ask for more input. per greg's response: GCL: In this case the success criteria is actually limited to "recognized input methods explicitly associated with an element", so the user agent is not expected to present the user with a list that includes every possible event being handled by a global event listener, if the specific technology does not allow it to tell which... 19:29:06 ...specific events are being watched for. However, if the user agent can tell, for a given element, which events are being listened for by a element-specific, container element, or global listeners, it should be able to make this list available to the user. If you still feel this is a problem could you please elaborate. 19:30:20 rrsagent, make minutes 19:30:20 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/01/30-ua-minutes.html jeanne 19:30:33 jr: SB04 this is covered by 2.11.3. as per GCL: SC 2.11.3 already requires the user be able to turn off scripts, but it does not require that it be easy or convenient (nor that it be specific to a the current top-level viewport). That could potentially be added as a separate, lower-level SC, but I'm not sure how we'd say what is required to be convenient. By the way, your example is a good... 19:30:35 ...one that we could add to the Implementing document. 19:32:20 Resolution: SB04 not accepted, per GCL: SC 2.11.3 already requires the user be able to turn off scripts, but it does not require that it be easy or convenient (nor that it be specific to a the current top-level viewport). That could potentially be added as a separate, lower-level SC, but I'm not sure how we'd say what is required to be convenient. By the way, your example is a good one that... 19:32:21 ...we could add to the Implementing document. 19:32:44 s/reject/not accepted 19:34:27 -Eric 19:34:31 -Jan 19:34:33 -kford 19:34:34 rrsagent, make minutes 19:34:34 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/01/30-ua-minutes.html allanj 19:34:43 -Jim_Allan 19:34:46 -Greg_Lowney 19:35:08 zakim, please part 19:35:08 leaving. As of this point the attendees were kford, Jeanne, Jim_Allan, Greg_Lowney, Jan, Eric 19:35:08 Zakim has left #ua 19:35:12 rrsagent, make minutes 19:35:12 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/01/30-ua-minutes.html allanj 19:38:47 Chair: JimAllan, KellyFord 19:39:02 rrsagent, make minutes 19:39:02 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/01/30-ua-minutes.html allanj 19:39:13 rrsagent, please part 19:39:13 I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/30-ua-actions.rdf : 19:39:13 ACTION: Jan to Develop response to Silas comment on 1.8.7(reflow text) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2014JanMar/0015.html [1] 19:39:13 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/30-ua-irc#T18-35-48