16:00:06 RRSAgent has joined #pointerevents 16:00:06 logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/01/28-pointerevents-irc 16:00:11 RRSAgent, make log public 16:00:37 +[Microsoft] 16:01:18 + +44.797.663.aaaa 16:01:24 +Art_Barstow 16:01:25 Zakim, [Microsoft] is jrossi 16:01:25 +jrossi; got it 16:01:50 zakim, who's here? 16:01:50 On the phone I see Matt_Brubeck, jrossi, +44.797.663.aaaa, Art_Barstow 16:01:51 On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, jrossi, ArtB, patrick_h_lauke, scott_gonzalez, slightlyoff, dfreedm, sangwhan, mbrubeck_, trackbot 16:01:54 rbyers has joined #pointerevents 16:02:07 +rbyers 16:02:39 +Scott_Gonzalez 16:02:41 zakim, who is here? 16:02:41 On the phone I see Matt_Brubeck, jrossi, +44.797.663.aaaa, Art_Barstow, rbyers, Scott_Gonzalez 16:02:43 On IRC I see rbyers, RRSAgent, Zakim, jrossi, ArtB, patrick_h_lauke, scott_gonzalez, slightlyoff, dfreedm, sangwhan, mbrubeck_, trackbot 16:02:46 Regrets: Asir_Vedamuthu, Cathy_Chan 16:03:30 Present: Art_Barstow, Matt_Brubeck, Jacob_Rossi, Patrick_Lauke, Rick_Byers 16:03:44 Present+ Scott_González 16:04:03 Topic: Tweak agenda 16:04:08 AB: I posted a draft agenda yesterday http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0057.html. Any change requests? 16:04:17 AB: Patrick, welcome to the group and thanks for your introduction (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0034.html). FYI, I generally am the scribe of these calls and we expect participants to "embellish and correct" the minutes directly in IRC. 16:04:25 AutomatedTester has joined #pointerevents 16:05:02 smaug has joined #pointerevents 16:05:04 +[IPcaller] 16:05:13 Zakim, IPcaller is me 16:05:13 +sangwhan; got it 16:05:28 Present+ Sangwhan_Moon 16:06:07 Zaki, +44.797.663.aaaa is me 16:06:11 oops 16:06:13 Regrets: Doug_Schepers 16:06:18 Zakim, +44.797.663.aaaa is me 16:06:18 +patrick_h_lauke; got it 16:06:26 Topic: Pointer Events types and keyboard/keyboard-like interfaces? 16:06:41 AB: Patrick started this thread on January 4 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0002.html. 16:06:47 AB: there was some discussion by Rick, Patrick and Bruce but I don't think there was a resolution or consensus position per se but I could have missed it. 16:07:29 PL: need to do some testing with polyfills before making a decsion 16:07:36 … my bg is with WAI 16:07:42 … Opera has done some related work 16:08:07 … Discussion ended with we should polyfill and do some testing 16:08:34 RB: Jacob and I are both conerned about adding too much to the low level primitives 16:09:10 … having said that, if we can show there is a good need we can discuss this again 16:09:32 SM: with spatial nav, some elements like href have different behaviour 16:09:39 … e.g. for mouse click 16:09:51 … testing is all against mouse handling 16:10:11 … spatial navigation generates fake mouse events 16:10:25 … I'm investigating doing same thing for pointerevents 16:10:31 … but we need to learn more 16:10:45 … not sure if we need to do something in the spec yet or not 16:10:59 SG: when it does fail, what events were devs listening to? 16:11:08 SM: mousedown and mouseup 16:11:19 … which is normal behaviour for browser 16:11:47 SG: not sure want to contort spec if people are doing wrong thing 16:12:07 JR: we have done some similar investigation 16:12:36 … our primary goal is mouse compat 16:12:45 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2013OctDec/0018.html 16:13:02 SG: if have a cursor, want pointer events 16:13:17 … thus new devices can use PEs and just work 16:14:14 … fine to have a controller that can point and type and to have different events 16:14:41 PL: what about sequential tabbing thru pages 16:16:11 … don't want devs to have to lie about their input devices 16:17:29 [ Scott discusses tool tip scenario … ] 16:18:10 RB: can understand an api that is agnostic for keyboard, tab, mouse, touch, etc. 16:18:27 fundamental (historic) difference between "focus" and "hover" - if i click with a mouse on a focusable element, i shift focus to it as well, and focus remains there even when "hover" isn't happening anymore 16:19:12 maybe not the right place to fix THIS scenario here (but we've bumped against that in other accessibility discussions already) 16:19:19 RB: don't want to have to "lie" to get compat 16:19:46 … if a huge set of sites are broken, then lies can be justfied 16:19:55 RB: making up screen coordinates (as suggested by PL "take center point of focused element) is a "lie" 16:19:59 … think we need to know which higher level APIs are missing 16:20:23 SG: hover and focus are different things 16:20:50 SG: developers should be using focus, blur, click which is agnostic 16:21:42 that was matt methinks 16:22:01 MB: the implementation of hover creates a problem 16:22:19 … we have a section about mouse events 16:22:31 … can we do backwards compat in a predictable way 16:22:43 … without creating other issues 16:23:09 SG: but some sites are already broken with keyboards 16:24:11 JR: keyboard interaction model is a lot different than the new devices 16:24:16 question for/from me is: with pointer events we have a clean slate, but will developers fall back to the same (wrong) practices and ignore keyboard 16:24:53 JR: keyboards don't hover, not pixel based 16:25:28 … when I look at what people are building with PE, not clear how keyboard would fit in 16:26:11 … don't think we should add anything to the spec until we have more data 16:26:23 RB: yes, agree; need more experience 16:26:56 Q+ 16:27:50 -Matt_Brubeck 16:27:58 AB: seems like we don't quite have enough experience and data to agree to a change to the spec 16:28:35 SM: if we don't generate any compat events, think we are going to have problem 16:29:13 ACTION: sangwhan make a proposal re the keyboard compat issue 16:29:13 Created ACTION-63 - Make a proposal re the keyboard compat issue [on Sangwhan Moon - due 2014-02-04]. 16:29:21 ack patrick_h_lauke 16:29:30 PL: don't want devs to fall back on old practices 16:29:37 … perhaps an advisory note 16:29:43 … should be added to the spec 16:29:52 RB: I like that idea 16:30:07 … non-normative note makes sense 16:30:08 https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/pointerevents/raw-file/tip/pointerEvents.html#compatibility-mapping-with-mouse-events 16:30:24 ACTION: patrick propose a non-normative note re the keyboard compat issue 16:30:24 Created ACTION-64 - Propose a non-normative note re the keyboard compat issue [on Patrick Lauke - due 2014-02-04]. 16:30:45 JR: we already have something like that and we can add some more text 16:30:48 JR: add to the note importance about a11y 16:31:03 RB: also add focus/blur advice 16:31:10 Topic: Touch-action to SVG elements 16:31:19 AB: this thread was started by Gnanasekar S, January 13 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/att-0016/00-part. 16:31:26 AB: Rick sent two replies: first http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0018.html and second is http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0024.html. 16:31:39 RB: he works for Samsung in India 16:31:48 … he has been landing some patches in Blink 16:31:58 … I encouraged him to send this message 16:32:04 AB: What's the group's position on this? Do we do nothing, is a minor clarification/tweak to the PE spec needed, or something else? 16:32:51 RB: my reading of the spec is that touch-action doesn't apply to SVG elements 16:33:04 JR: perhaps the problem is the text wasn't meant to be plural 16:33:28 RB: perhaps we just need a clarification then 16:33:38 JR: use "The" SVG element 16:34:37 JR: would be good if Doug were here 16:34:41 AB: good point 16:34:49 -patrick_h_lauke 16:35:09 ACTION: jacob create a proposal to address the SVG element issue 16:35:10 Created ACTION-65 - Create a proposal to address the svg element issue [on Jacob Rossi - due 2014-02-04]. 16:35:10 sorry folks, have to shoot off 16:35:34 RB: also need to make sure the use of "block" is correct 16:35:38 feel free to assign anything more to me later from "my" topics 16:35:47 JR: we can certainly reach out to the SVG WG 16:35:52 patrick_h_lauke has left #pointerevents 16:35:55 RB: yeah, good idea 16:36:11 … let's make sure we get them to help us get the text correct 16:36:50 Topic: Bug 24346; Clarifications on Pointer Events Types section; 16:37:02 AB: this bug was filed by Patrick on January 21. https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24346 as a followup to the "`List of Pointer Events` table default actions" thread between Patrick and Rick on January 17 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0025.html 16:37:41 AB: do we want to discuss this now? 16:37:53 RB: I think Jacob replied 16:38:05 JR: I think Patrick proposed text but I have made the change 16:38:14 RB: I made some minor tweaks too 16:38:30 ACTION: Jacob address Bug 24346 per the agreement during the 28-Jan-2014 call 16:38:30 Created ACTION-66 - Address bug 24346 per the agreement during the 28-jan-2014 call [on Jacob Rossi - due 2014-02-04]. 16:38:44 Topic: Bug 24348; pointerdown/pointerup/pointercancel on non-hover devices; 16:38:52 AB: Patrick filed this bug on 21-Jan-2014 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24348. 16:38:52 AB: Jacob fixed the bug in in latest ED https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/pointerevents/raw-file/default/pointerEvents.html via two changsets (URLs are in the bug). 16:38:58 AB: is there anything we need to discuss or is the latest ED with Jacob's two changes OK? 16:39:41 RB: I agree Jacob's patches are good 16:39:47 AB: any objections? 16:39:50 [ None ] 16:39:55 RESOLUTION: Jacob's patches for bug 24348 are OK 16:40:06 Topic: Clarification on "cancelling" pointerdown 16:40:12 AB: Patrick started this thread on January 22 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0041.html. Matt replied http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0048.html. 16:40:20 AB: do we need a minor clarification or is there something more? 16:40:48 RB: I agree with Matt's comment 16:41:30 JR: yes, need a DOM4 reference 16:41:44 ACTION: Jacob create a bug for the "Clarification on 'cancelling' pointerdown" issue and address it per the discussion on 28-Jan-2014 16:41:44 Created ACTION-67 - Create a bug for the "clarification on 'cancelling' pointerdown" issue and address it per the discussion on 28-jan-2014 [on Jacob Rossi - due 2014-02-04]. 16:42:00 Topic: initial thoughts: pointerup and "click"/"contextmenu"; 16:42:11 AB: Patrick started this thread on January 22 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0042.html. Jacob replied on January 24 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0055.html. 16:42:44 SM: I'm looking at bug on Opera mobile with touch events 16:43:53 … there is a scenario where touch cancel causes some compat issues 16:44:06 … think we are going to have the same problem with pointerevents 16:44:27 JR: re ordering, I replied to Patrick with my thoughts 16:44:40 … different solutions have been implememted 16:45:10 SM: context menu can obstruct the pointer 16:45:23 … and in that case, it should be canceled 16:45:37 JR: if press and hold on Safari, menu appears below finger 16:45:47 … can expect cancel happening 16:45:59 … in IE we do things differently 16:46:14 … get up first and then context menu 16:47:01 JR: does IE supress context menu if a move is in place 16:47:13 +Matt_Brubeck 16:47:14 JR: the event should always fire 16:47:58 RB: I agree with Jacob that this is outside the scope of this group 16:48:18 … not clear that all browsers would want to agree on a behavior 16:48:33 SM: that's fine 16:48:55 JR: it wouldn't hurt to add a non-normative note about this 16:49:03 … and mention UAs will vary here 16:49:05 s/JR/RB 16:49:25 AB: would that be ok Jacob? 16:49:29 JR: yes, that would be fine 16:49:57 RB: I can propose a sentence 16:50:20 SM: think we can add a note in the compat section 16:50:26 … just need a sentence 16:51:02 ACTION: rick make a proposal to address the context menu issue per discussion on 28-Jan-2014 16:51:02 Created ACTION-68 - Make a proposal to address the context menu issue per discussion on 28-jan-2014 [on Rick Byers - due 2014-02-04]. 16:51:14 Topic: Impact of pointer capture on hit testing requirements / performance 16:51:25 AB: Rick started this thread on January 24 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0056.html and Jacob replied http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0058.html. 16:51:38 AB: it appears an informative note we agreed to add last November (https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/pointerevents/rev/3c9741587490) is causing a performance issue, at least for Polymer implementation of PE. 16:52:42 RB: the recent text re events when crossing element boundaries, we get a performance hit 16:53:08 … the action is for me to do more experments 16:53:22 … and gather some specific data 16:53:41 … think it will boil down to a UA implementation issue that doesn't need to be addressed in the spec 16:53:52 JR: I would be interested in seeing some data 16:54:05 … want to know what the content does in these scenarios 16:54:32 RB: it could be a prob with our hit testig 16:54:53 AB: do you want an action Rick? 16:55:16 RB: I think we should close this for now and if/when I have an issue I'll raise it again 16:55:21 AB: works for me 16:55:41 Topic: Should Rick's touch-action tests for blink be ported/included to PE test suite? 16:55:51 AB: earlier this month Rick started this thread http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0014.html and no one replied. 16:56:16 RB: I think we already discussed this 16:56:30 … I can add them 16:56:55 … think we still haven't landed the PR from Microsoft and get Scott's work done 16:57:16 … after those actions are done, and they are higher priority, then we can come back to this 16:57:27 AB: sounds very reasonable 16:57:37 Topic: Testing status 16:57:44 AB: can anyone provide a short status on testing? The minutes from our last discussion are http://www.w3.org/2014/01/07-pointerevents-minutes.html#item07. My recollection is Jacob and Scott have some open actions. 16:58:01 AB: open actions are https://www.w3.org/2012/pointerevents/track/actions/open. 16:58:44 JR: someone else (not me) is writing our PE tests 16:58:58 … I need to get an update from them 16:59:16 … I'll check on the status 16:59:20 AB: ok, thanks 16:59:40 Topic: CR implementation updates 16:59:48 AB: any new news re implementations? 17:00:14 MB: Gecko impl is moving quickly 17:00:17 I have to join another call in a minute. 17:00:30 … touch-action can be enabled (not on by default) 17:00:42 … some parts of the impl are awaiting review 17:00:49 AB: that's great; thank you 17:00:54 (Thanks again to MS Open Tech) 17:01:15 -Scott_Gonzalez 17:01:22 Topic: AoB 17:01:28 AB: anything else for today? 17:01:38 RB: Edge Conference in London 17:01:45 … I'll be on a panel with Patrick 17:02:02 … audience is experienced developers 17:02:11 … lots of good service providers 17:02:15 … sponsored by Microsoft 17:02:23 … Hope to get more panelists 17:02:25 smaug has joined #pointerevents 17:02:47 hrm 17:02:48 AB: are you going Jacob or someone from Microsoft? 17:02:48 sorry 17:02:50 I'm in SF 17:02:56 JR: I won't be able to attend 17:03:02 … but we may get someone 17:03:20 … the discussion last year was great 17:03:30 AB: will be live streamed or recorded? 17:03:38 JR: yes, at least one of those 17:04:04 AB: Matt, how about Mozilla? 17:04:12 MB: I can look into it 17:04:30 RB: that would be good; we need to know who is supporting PE 17:04:46 … the more representation from browser vendors the better 17:04:53 AB: agree 17:05:49 AB: meeting adjourned 17:05:55 -Art_Barstow 17:05:57 -Matt_Brubeck 17:05:58 -rbyers 17:06:00 -jrossi 17:06:01 RRSAgent, make minutes 17:06:01 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/01/28-pointerevents-minutes.html ArtB 17:06:01 -sangwhan 17:06:02 RWC_PEWG()11:00AM has ended 17:06:02 Attendees were Matt_Brubeck, Art_Barstow, jrossi, rbyers, Scott_Gonzalez, sangwhan, patrick_h_lauke 17:06:22 RRSAgent, make log public 17:06:38 Chair: Art 17:06:43 RRSAgent, make minutes 17:06:43 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/01/28-pointerevents-minutes.html ArtB 17:08:30 Regrets+ Asir_Vedamuthu, Cathy_Chan 17:08:37 RRSAgent, make minutes 17:08:37 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/01/28-pointerevents-minutes.html ArtB 17:09:27 Meeting: Pointer Events Working Group Voice Conference 17:09:33 RRSAgent, make minutes 17:09:33 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/01/28-pointerevents-minutes.html ArtB 17:17:55 shepazu has joined #pointerevents 17:19:48 zakim, by 17:19:48 I don't understand 'by', ArtB 17:19:52 zakim, bye 17:19:52 Zakim has left #pointerevents 17:19:55 rrsagent, bye 17:19:55 I see 6 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/28-pointerevents-actions.rdf : 17:19:55 ACTION: sangwhan make a proposal re the keyboard compat issue [1] 17:19:55 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/28-pointerevents-irc#T16-29-13 17:19:55 ACTION: patrick propose a non-normative note re the keyboard compat issue [2] 17:19:55 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/28-pointerevents-irc#T16-30-24 17:19:55 ACTION: jacob create a proposal to address the SVG element issue [3] 17:19:55 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/28-pointerevents-irc#T16-35-09 17:19:55 ACTION: Jacob address Bug 24346 per the agreement during the 28-Jan-2014 call [4] 17:19:55 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/28-pointerevents-irc#T16-38-30 17:19:55 ACTION: Jacob create a bug for the "Clarification on 'cancelling' pointerdown" issue and address it per the discussion on 28-Jan-2014 [5] 17:19:55 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/28-pointerevents-irc#T16-41-44 17:19:55 ACTION: rick make a proposal to address the context menu issue per discussion on 28-Jan-2014 [6] 17:19:55 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/28-pointerevents-irc#T16-51-02