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13:43:12 <MichaelC> rrsagent, bye
13:43:12 <RRSAgent> I see 16 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/24-aria-actions.rdf :
13:43:12 <RRSAgent> ACTION: king to propose edit to dialog role to clarify issue that leads to bad implementation [1]
13:43:12 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/24-aria-irc#T17-12-24
13:43:12 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jcraig to add an attribute for differentiating modal vs non-modal dialogs/menus/etc. (possibly aria-modal) [2]
13:43:12 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/24-aria-irc#T17-20-41
13:43:12 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jcraig to patch issue-517 [3]
13:43:12 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/24-aria-irc#T19-21-16
13:43:12 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jcraig to patch ISSUE-561: We need @aria-placeholder as backup for @placeholder in custom fields. [4]
13:43:12 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/24-aria-irc#T19-23-27
13:43:12 <RRSAgent> ACTION: richardschwerdtfeger to make specific proposals for whether aria-level, aria-posinset, and aria-setsize might be needed [5]
13:43:12 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/24-aria-irc#T19-26-31
13:43:12 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Rich to propose specific edits or close ISSUE-565: Consider making aria-leve, aria-posinset, and aria-setsize global attributes [6]
13:43:12 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/24-aria-irc#T19-26-35
13:43:12 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jcraig to patch ISSUE-574: Add required state of aria-selected to role option, and implicit value aria-selected='false' [7]
13:43:12 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/24-aria-irc#T19-36-16
13:43:12 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jcraig to patch ISSUE-576: Add aria-posinset, and aria-setsize to tab role [8]
13:43:12 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/24-aria-irc#T19-37-53
13:43:12 <RRSAgent> ACTION: cooper to fix generated URL: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/#tablist [9]
13:43:12 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/24-aria-irc#T19-40-39
13:43:12 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jcraig to patch ISSUE-580: Consider changing rowgroup superclass to structure (from group) to prevent inheritance of other supported attrs in ARIA 1.1. [10]
13:43:12 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/24-aria-irc#T19-45-21
13:43:12 <RRSAgent> ACTION: rich to propose specific edit for ISSUE-588: Clarify rowheader and columnheader selection [11]
13:43:12 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/24-aria-irc#T20-00-55
13:43:12 <RRSAgent> ACTION: 1355 to Possible to be a WCAG Technique, in the authoring guide, in the HTML5 binding document. [12]
13:43:12 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/24-aria-irc#T20-02-50
13:43:12 <RRSAgent> ACTION: davidb to Chat about the general case solution of mapping onclick to keypress in certain circumstances with appropriate people and get back to the working group [13]
13:43:12 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/24-aria-irc#T20-29-15
13:43:12 <RRSAgent> ACTION: cyns to Chat about the general case solution of mapping onclick to keypress in certain circumstances with appropriate people and get back to the working group [14]
13:43:12 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/24-aria-irc#T20-29-38
13:43:12 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jcraig to compare the ARIA and UAIG text alternative computation specs, because they somehow got out of sync [15]
13:43:12 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/24-aria-irc#T20-33-58
13:43:12 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ShaneM to file a problem with the validator about role values that are scoped. [16]
13:43:12 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/24-aria-irc#T21-38-55
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13:47:07 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/01/25-aria-irc
13:50:17 <MichaelC> agenda: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/meetings/2014-01-ftf#agenda
13:50:20 <janina_> janina_ has joined #aria
13:50:23 <MichaelC> chair: Janina Sajka
13:50:28 <MichaelC> meeting: ARIA FtF Day 3
13:51:02 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aria
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13:58:57 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #aria
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14:00:03 <Zakim> Team_(aria)14:00Z has now started
14:00:05 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #aria
14:00:10 <Zakim> +Matt_King
14:01:10 <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
14:01:19 <MichaelC> zakim, Mozilla is PF_FtF
14:01:19 <Zakim> +PF_FtF; got it
14:02:19 <jongunderson> jongunderson has joined #aria
14:02:30 <MichaelC> zakim, Mozilla has Shane_McCarron, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, David_Bolter, Bryan_Garaventa, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Joanie_Diggs, James_Nurthen, Mark_Sadecki, Michael_Cooper, David_MacDonald, Cynthia_Shelly, Jon_Gunderson
14:02:30 <Zakim> sorry, MichaelC, I do not recognize a party named 'Mozilla'
14:02:42 <MichaelC> zakim, PF has Shane_McCarron, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, David_Bolter, Bryan_Garaventa, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Joanie_Diggs, James_Nurthen, Mark_Sadecki, Michael_Cooper, David_MacDonald, Cynthia_Shelly, Jon_Gunderson
14:02:42 <Zakim> +Shane_McCarron, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, David_Bolter, Bryan_Garaventa, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Joanie_Diggs, James_Nurthen, Mark_Sadecki, Michael_Cooper, David_MacDonald, Cynthia_Shelly,
14:02:46 <clown> clown has joined #aria
14:02:46 <Zakim> ... Jon_Gunderson; got it
14:03:03 <jamesn>  6:25pm
14:03:04 <janina_> 3:55
14:03:21 <joanie> 3:20
14:03:30 <jongunderson> 4:00
14:03:49 <davidb> davidb has joined #aria
14:04:43 <richardschwerdtfeger> Rich =5:15
14:06:05 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/17
14:07:30 <clown> agenda?
14:08:11 <clown> zakim, who's here?
14:08:11 <Zakim> On the phone I see Matt_King, PF_FtF
14:08:12 <Zakim> PF_FtF has Shane_McCarron, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, David_Bolter, Bryan_Garaventa, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Joanie_Diggs, James_Nurthen, Mark_Sadecki, Michael_Cooper, David_MacDonald,
14:08:12 <Zakim> ... Cynthia_Shelly, Jon_Gunderson
14:08:12 <Zakim> On IRC I see davidb, clown, jongunderson, jamesn, mattking, bgaraventa1979, richardschwerdtfeger, janina_, RRSAgent, Zakim, MichaelC, asurkov, MarkS, joanie, janina, trackbot
14:08:14 <David_MacD_Lenovo> David_MacD_Lenovo has joined #aria
14:08:20 <richardschwerdtfeger> scribe: Rich
14:08:40 <richardschwerdtfeger> jaina: there are people that require assistive support but they don't need ATs
14:08:47 <richardschwerdtfeger> s/jaina/janina/
14:09:05 <richardschwerdtfeger> janina: so we can't get rid of other support features
14:09:30 <David_MacD_Lenovo> aria only for apis
14:09:52 <richardschwerdtfeger> janina: I don't feel this this it is the case that aria is only for apis - as long as it does not break accessibility it is fine
14:10:07 <richardschwerdtfeger> janina: It is required for all elements
14:10:09 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #aria
14:10:17 <richardschwerdtfeger> janina: It may just well be a curb cut elsewhere
14:10:31 <richardschwerdtfeger> janina: Why not promote its use elsewhere?
14:10:41 <richardschwerdtfeger> janina: It is a marketing of ARIA approach
14:10:54 <davidb> q+
14:11:02 <richardschwerdtfeger> janina: If we stick a fence we will shut others out
14:11:05 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+
14:11:10 <David_MacD_Lenovo> q+
14:11:17 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack davidb
14:11:20 <cyns> cyns has joined #aria
14:11:26 <bgaraventa1979> q+
14:11:52 <richardschwerdtfeger> davidb: I will be on the page on what the angle is. If you take an aria attribute and user agent feels it is useful and not just for AT
14:12:31 <richardschwerdtfeger> joseph: what if you wanted the feature and SVG and HTML?
14:13:14 <richardschwerdtfeger> davidb: ARIA has informed some html
14:13:28 <richardschwerdtfeger> cynthia: what if we are moving faster than HTML?
14:13:52 <richardschwerdtfeger> davidb: I feel like I don't fully understand Janina yet
14:14:20 <MichaelC> agenda+ Scrubbing ARIA 1.1 Issues and Actions https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/17
14:14:20 <MichaelC> agenda+ ARIA 1.1 additional roles (and possibly something like @aria-roledescription?) e.g., html, svg, epub
14:14:20 <MichaelC> agenda+ Making key events work automatically on focusable elements matching certain roles (e.g. button, link, checkbox), that have click event handlers (or possibly by HTML5 Commands) [jcraig]
14:14:21 <MichaelC> agenda+ Keyboard handling within complex widgets with child components [jamesn]
14:14:21 <MichaelC> agenda+ Make 2.0 about extensibility [LisaS]
14:14:23 <MichaelC> agenda+ API harmonization? What is the LCD or superset of the platform APIS? At least the necessary parts [Cyns]
14:14:26 <MichaelC> agenda+ Fixing Live regions (probably ARIA 2?) [jcraig]
14:14:28 <MichaelC> agenda+ RTE API and focus proxy (2.0) [jcraig]
14:14:30 <MichaelC> agenda+ IndieUI's relationship to ARIA [Rich]
14:14:32 <MichaelC> agenda+ modularization [from jcraig via MichaelC]
14:14:34 <richardschwerdtfeger> davidb: there may be consensus that we want to move at light speed with ARIA and we could run into big arguments with HTML  people
14:14:34 <MichaelC> agenda+ Cognitive Issues [Lisa]
14:14:36 <MichaelC> agenda+ ARIA controls comply with WCAG? e.g. how/can we make custom rendering Video, Math, etc accessible via ARIA [jcraig]
14:15:04 <richardschwerdtfeger> cynthia: there was argument as to whether aria-label should be ok for alt as a replacement
14:15:26 <richardschwerdtfeger> cynthia: it feels funky in the browser.
14:16:13 <jamesn> q+
14:16:16 <richardschwerdtfeger> Brian: If you have aria-labelledby it would click on the form field
14:16:28 <richardschwerdtfeger> Brian: that would be helpful
14:16:30 <janina_> q?
14:17:10 <richardschwerdtfeger> davidb: developers do custom work. ARIA was intended to be purely semantic.
14:17:24 <richardschwerdtfeger> davidb: we were just applying the semantics
14:17:55 <MichaelC> s/scribe: Rich/scribe: richardschwerdtfeger/
14:17:55 <richardschwerdtfeger> davidb: it was less painful for the browsers
14:18:13 <cyns> q+
14:18:17 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aria
14:18:23 <clown> scribenick:  clown
14:18:38 <clown> RS:  we had a lot of political things at the beginning of ARIA.
14:19:05 <clown> RS:  we had to put it such that it would not break the developers' process, nor break the browser
14:19:29 <clown> RS:  But, the host language should be able to decide additional behaviour for ARIA
14:19:43 <clown> RS:  it was meant to be a cross-cutting technology.
14:19:51 <clown> RS:  to work first in html, then in SVG
14:20:02 <clown> RS:  For all RIA web applications
14:20:04 <janina_> q?
14:20:08 <janina_> ack r
14:20:11 <clown> RS:  And it has become that.
14:20:20 <cyns> ack r
14:20:27 <MichaelC> s/agenda?/topic: Is ARIA only for AAPIs (and ATs)?/
14:20:43 <clown> RS:  When we go to recommendation that will be even more so.
14:21:24 <clown> RS:  we didn't look at HTML 4 holistically.
14:21:32 <clown> RS:  We didn't aniticpate ajax.
14:21:48 <clown> RS:  Now the developers can leverage ARIA to help with this.
14:22:19 <clown> RS:  For example, I advised some developers to use CSS selectors on aria-* attributes
14:22:30 <clown> RS:  it will reduce your need for JavaScript
14:22:33 <davidb> q+
14:22:56 <davidb> ack me
14:23:14 <clown> RS:  a problem we had was giving an early draft of ARIA to Ian
14:23:36 <clown> RS:  and he put some equivalent things, like autocomplete, into HTML5
14:23:40 <davidb> q+ to ask, is aria the a11y api or the web or is it more than that, i'm concerned about complexity
14:23:49 <davidb> ack me
14:23:49 <Zakim> davidb, you wanted to ask, is aria the a11y api or the web or is it more than that, i'm concerned about complexity
14:23:59 <clown> RS: but, as long as they don't break want we want to do.
14:24:01 <davidb> q+ to ask, is aria the a11y api of the web or is it more than that, i'm concerned about complexity
14:24:05 <clown> CS:  They?
14:24:12 <clown> RS:  The browser vendors.
14:25:01 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
14:25:04 <clown> RS: It's in their best interest to use ARIA.  They can slim down the language and avoid duplication
14:25:12 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack David_MacD_Lenovo
14:25:12 <clown> scribe: richardschwerdtfeger
14:25:21 <cyns> ack b
14:25:37 <janina_> q?
14:26:06 <clown> scribenick:  clown
14:26:12 <richardschwerdtfeger> davidb: Going back to the mind of the cognitive side. Accessibility API - When I think about MSAA, etc. I Like ARIA as the accessibility API of the web.
14:26:18 <clown> scribe:  richardschwerdtfeger
14:26:52 <David_MacD_Lenovo> q+
14:26:55 <janina_> q+
14:27:53 <richardschwerdtfeger> davidb: I like the idea of ARIA being the accessibility API of the web. Do we want it to be an api in the traditional sense or do we wan to see it a unifying way of defining the user interaction of the Web?
14:27:56 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
14:28:02 <janina_> ack jam
14:29:06 <richardschwerdtfeger> jamesn: We would like it for developers to create add-ons for users without having to go through the full AT pattern. ... if you could access the ARIA info from the browser it might make it easier for it to be mainstream
14:29:48 <richardschwerdtfeger> davidb: password fields I have had huge headaches with. Password field ... do you want lightweight access
14:30:19 <janina_> ack c
14:30:25 <richardschwerdtfeger> jamesn: perhaps if we made it part of javascript it would be easier
14:30:35 <richardschwerdtfeger> cynthia: Touch on windows uses UIA
14:31:20 <richardschwerdtfeger> cynthia: given that ARIA has existed for almost a decade now its adoption now is pretty good (better than alt) ...
14:31:34 <richardschwerdtfeger> cynthia: the ability to add ARIA state in it just worked
14:32:01 <richardschwerdtfeger> cynthia: the ability to store the state of the object on a tag ... we were able to repurpose aria
14:32:31 <richardschwerdtfeger> cynthia: The script and the CSS were triggered off of ARIA - it was teany and it worked very well.
14:32:43 <janina_> q?
14:32:57 <richardschwerdtfeger> cynthia: I don't believe the retrofitting scenario will continue to be the norm.
14:33:10 <janina_> q?
14:33:18 <janina_> ack d
14:33:21 <MichaelC> zakim, James_Craig has entered PF
14:33:21 <Zakim> +James_Craig; got it
14:33:26 <richardschwerdtfeger> davidb: In the expando case that is still not semantics.
14:33:32 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
14:33:41 <davidb> ack davidb
14:33:41 <Zakim> davidb, you wanted to ask, is aria the a11y api of the web or is it more than that, i'm concerned about complexity
14:34:06 <richardschwerdtfeger> david_macdonald: I think it is going the direction where aria attributes will replace the alt. are there feelings against that?
14:34:27 <richardschwerdtfeger> david_macdonald: is it ok that aria semantics replace alt?
14:34:32 <cyns> q+
14:34:54 <richardschwerdtfeger> david_macdonald: is it related to this?
14:35:01 <jamesn> q+
14:36:00 <clown> q?
14:36:01 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: I have an opinion. If people use it as a replacement as some are using aria=""
14:36:13 <richardschwerdtfeger> janina: we could talk this for the rest of the day ...
14:36:19 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+
14:36:28 <clown> s/some are using aria=/some are using aria-label=/
14:37:02 <richardschwerdtfeger> janina: In my mind we need to understand our audience.
14:37:21 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #aria
14:37:28 <richardschwerdtfeger> cynthia: I think you are overestimating the understanding of the developer space
14:37:29 <janina_> q?
14:37:37 <janina_> ack j
14:37:46 <janina_> ack jan
14:37:56 <janina_> q+
14:38:26 <richardschwerdtfeger> cynthia: one thing we could do is remove the aria prefix
14:38:40 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
14:38:54 <MichaelC> ack c
14:39:31 <richardschwerdtfeger> jamesn: I want to state what we are working on in the task force. you may not meet HTML but you meet wcag 1.1.1
14:40:09 <richardschwerdtfeger> jamesn: it is not an accessibility feature ...
14:40:29 <janina_> ack r
14:40:50 <cyns> q+ to suggest a wcag failure for aria-label=""
14:41:00 <davidb> s/In the expando case that is still not semantics/In the expando case that is still just semantics
14:42:20 <davidb> s/password fields I have had huge headaches with/password fields I have had huge headaches with anti-spyware instantiating our a11y engine
14:43:14 <davidb> s/Going back to the mind of the cognitive side/ Going back to cognitive, the mind of the web developer
14:43:18 <jcraig> MarkS: https://bug-62774-attachments.webkit.org/attachment.cgi?id=215012
14:43:45 <jongunderson> q+
14:43:52 <davidb> jcraig, WFM
14:43:57 <janina_> ack janina
14:44:46 <janina_> q+
14:45:28 <clown> http://trends.builtwith.com/docinfo/WAI-ARIA
14:46:33 <clown> q?
14:46:45 <cyns> ack me
14:46:45 <Zakim> cyns, you wanted to suggest a wcag failure for aria-label=""
14:46:54 <janina_> ack jon
14:47:31 <janina_> q?
14:47:57 <jcraig> role="none" is ISSUE-348: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/348
14:47:59 <clown> scribenick:  davidb
14:48:48 <davidb> RS: if you want to do this, we can look at the "none" role, secondly you guys need to figure out how you want to transition from alt and deal with aria-label=""...
14:48:51 <janina_> q?
14:49:53 <davidb> RS: third, html group would need to agree to react to aria-label as alt (e.g. when images are turned off, render the text)
14:51:32 <davidb> general discussion... don't "replace" alt
14:52:14 <clown> q?
14:52:17 <richardschwerdtfeger> scribenick: davidb
14:52:36 <davidb> JN: can drive in the task force
14:53:05 <davidb> RS: we'll find a shorter name for "presentation"
14:53:31 <davidb> JS: sounds like we still have follow up issues about ARIA scope
14:53:36 <jamesn> aria-label=""  is easy to check for if you have the get accessible name js check
14:53:56 <davidb> JS: we can learn as we go
14:54:18 <MarkS> here is a 80+ message thread regarding the alt/aria-label issue that clearly indicates there is no consensus here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2013Nov/0052.html
14:54:38 <davidb> *ba-donk!*
14:55:02 <davidb> (that's the sound of 80+ messages)
14:55:33 <davidb> JS: we'll find a middle ground
14:56:52 <jcraig> q+
14:56:55 <davidb> Joseph: ARIA 1.0 is one way, from browser into a11y API, but on desktop it actually goes the other way, you can actually drive
14:57:46 <jcraig> agenda?
14:58:05 <MichaelC> drop item 2
14:58:15 <MichaelC> close item 3
14:58:33 <jcraig> Agenda+ Bugzilla vs Tracker
14:58:49 <jcraig> AGENDA+ Consider GitHub
14:58:53 <richardschwerdtfeger> scribe: rich
14:59:11 <jcraig> q-
14:59:22 <richardschwerdtfeger> zakim, takeum item 4
14:59:22 <Zakim> I don't understand 'takeum item 4', richardschwerdtfeger
14:59:36 <richardschwerdtfeger> zakim, takeup item 4
14:59:36 <Zakim> I don't understand 'takeup item 4', richardschwerdtfeger
14:59:43 <MichaelC> scribe: richardschwerdtfeger
14:59:55 <MichaelC> zakim, take up item 4
14:59:55 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Keyboard handling within complex widgets with child components" taken up [from jamesn via MichaelC]
15:00:04 <clown> take up agendum 4
15:00:25 <richardschwerdtfeger> jamesn: the current authoring practices that fall apart when you get to very complex widgets
15:00:49 <richardschwerdtfeger> jamesn: as soon as you put a text input widget int the toolbar you have a problem
15:01:02 <richardschwerdtfeger> jamesn: trees with child components are a problem
15:01:21 <richardschwerdtfeger> jamesn: we need a consistent keyboard model in ARIA that allows you to drill in and out of a component
15:01:28 <richardschwerdtfeger> jamesn: we need something more generic
15:01:37 <richardschwerdtfeger> jamesn: this would also apply to toolbars
15:01:51 <richardschwerdtfeger> jamesn: to support this we need to define this interaction behavior
15:02:00 <jcraig> q+ to discuss toolbar issue by MattKing as part of this.
15:02:02 <jcraig> ISSUE-547 (Matt King): Toolbars need to be treated as composite widgets by assistive technologies but are currently only subclass of structure
15:02:03 <jcraig> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/547
15:02:03 <richardschwerdtfeger> jamesn: Otherwise we have jacky solutions around each
15:02:25 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: I like the idea that we have a property to indicate if something is a managed widget. I think this is a good idea.
15:02:34 <clown> For reference, the keyboard model for grid navigation vs activation is here:  http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/Overview.html#grid
15:02:44 <jcraig> s/managed widget/managed focus widget/
15:03:11 <richardschwerdtfeger> rich: we need someone to take up the authoring techniques
15:03:42 <richardschwerdtfeger> cynthia: I might be able to take this up but I am concerned about time
15:03:57 <richardschwerdtfeger> cynthia: I am willing to write some scripts
15:04:11 <richardschwerdtfeger> clown: It needs some edits
15:04:29 <richardschwerdtfeger> mattking: I think this is the group we need to take this on
15:05:23 <richardschwerdtfeger> mattking: being on the front line of implementors I think the authoring guidance document is extremely important
15:06:09 <richardschwerdtfeger> mattking: MattKing, JamesN, Cynthia, Jongunderson, david Macdonald will work on the authoring guidelines
15:07:01 <richardschwerdtfeger> mattking: i think we should coordinate with HTML5
15:09:00 <jcraig> q?
15:09:04 <janina_> q?
15:09:06 <jcraig> ack jcr
15:09:06 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to discuss toolbar issue by MattKing as part of this.
15:09:11 <janina_> ack janina
15:09:11 <richardschwerdtfeger> rich: what do we think about what to do with indie ui and SVG wrt. authoring practices
15:09:25 <richardschwerdtfeger> rich: keyboard is the biggest overhead for accessibility
15:09:53 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: we agree we need a managed focus
15:10:04 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: I agree keyboard support is off the charts
15:10:20 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+
15:10:58 <richardschwerdtfeger> jamesn: I would propose that once we have a managed focus we wold need ability to drill into a component.
15:11:10 <richardschwerdtfeger> mattking: I am not sure about that but we should not have that discussion today
15:11:24 <janina_> q?
15:12:48 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: the normal process for toolbars, ribbons, etc. etc. Tabbing is not useful. We do jut tab through most buttons. I fought to keep toolbar optionally manage focused as there is not necessarily a one to one mapping.
15:12:55 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: we have more uses than that
15:13:00 <jcraig> issue-547
15:13:00 <trackbot> issue-547 -- Toolbars need to be treated as composite widgets by assistive technologies but are currently only subclass of structure -- raised
15:13:00 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/547
15:13:42 <richardschwerdtfeger> jamesn: toolbars needed to be treated as composite widgets. Do you want all toolbars to be managed focus?
15:13:51 <richardschwerdtfeger> sorry that was jcraig
15:14:20 <richardschwerdtfeger> mattking: We wanted toolbar to be a group. It is not treated as one at the AT level
15:14:59 <richardschwerdtfeger> mattking: when a widget has focus and keyboard is passed it is not passed to the screen reader. They automatically go into their forms mode. JAWS treats toolbars like this now.
15:15:20 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: we should take this up with the later issues
15:15:30 <clown> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/roles#toolbar
15:16:38 <clown> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/roles#application
15:17:08 <richardschwerdtfeger> mattking: I would suggest that the wording change. It is leading to uses that are awful.
15:17:17 <janina_> q?
15:17:22 <janina_> ack r
15:17:29 <richardschwerdtfeger> action: jamesn suggest new text for the application role
15:17:30 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1361 - Suggest new text for the application role [on James Nurthen - due 2014-02-01].
15:18:39 <clown> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/roles#treeitem
15:18:42 <bgaraventa1979> q+
15:19:49 <jcraig> q?
15:20:00 <janina_> ack b
15:20:20 <richardschwerdtfeger> Brian: isn't role="document" in a tree item for for maintaining active elements within a document.
15:20:21 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #aria
15:20:48 <richardschwerdtfeger> mattking: you can put a tree inside a document that can be used inside a widget
15:21:17 <richardschwerdtfeger> jamesn: there are a whole bunch of complex widgets. I need to the ability to drill into this.
15:21:37 <jcraig> q+ to mention tabindex scoping
15:21:58 <janina_> q?
15:22:16 <richardschwerdtfeger> mattking: this is not something we can just handle in the authoring practices
15:22:38 <richardschwerdtfeger> mattking: we can come back to PF from the authoring practices group to the main aria group
15:22:39 <jcraig> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23871
15:22:49 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
15:23:05 <janina_> ack j
15:23:05 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to mention tabindex scoping
15:23:34 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: We need an improvement for tab index  - tab index scoping
15:23:55 <ShaneM> q+ to talk about scoped behavior of tabindex
15:23:57 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: get the normal full access feature
15:24:28 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: the object orient way to do tab index.
15:24:44 <richardschwerdtfeger> jamesn: you can solve this with scripting I would like to see us have this
15:25:04 <richardschwerdtfeger> mattking: I am so excited to be able to simplify the world here
15:25:38 <richardschwerdtfeger> mattking: when we say keep it simple stupid. it would be great to do this.
15:26:04 <richardschwerdtfeger> janina: tab index is too linear
15:26:33 <richardschwerdtfeger> davidb: do we want infinite nesting?
15:26:53 <richardschwerdtfeger> mattking: we can do this dynamically.
15:27:42 <ShaneM> q?
15:27:43 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: I was thinking of positioning context in CSS to address David Bolter's question about nesting depth
15:27:55 <richardschwerdtfeger> dbolter: we have an F6 ring now
15:28:33 <richardschwerdtfeger> Shane: we had talked briefly 2 days ago about our languishing access extension. That seems like a place we could just do this
15:28:40 <bgaraventa1979> found the reference I was refering to, though it is not specific to trees, the text implies that it can be applicable to any of the interactive widgets, dialogs, applications, trees, etc. http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/roles#document
15:28:49 <davidb> (I like what jcraig said)
15:29:13 <jcraig> Tabindex scoping could behave more like positioning contexts in CSS.
15:29:21 <ShaneM> http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-access/
15:29:37 <davidb> agree with jcraig
15:32:16 <jamesn> issue: investigate aria-hasmanagedfocus to indicate whether a region manages focus to enable complex widgets
15:32:17 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-640 - Investigate aria-hasmanagedfocus to indicate whether a region manages focus to enable complex widgets.  Please complete additional details at <https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/640/edit>.
15:33:06 <richardschwerdtfeger> Topic: Break
15:47:55 <clown> zakim, who's here?
15:47:55 <Zakim> On the phone I see Matt_King, PF_FtF
15:47:56 <Zakim> PF_FtF has Shane_McCarron, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, David_Bolter, Bryan_Garaventa, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Joanie_Diggs, James_Nurthen, Mark_Sadecki, Michael_Cooper, David_MacDonald,
15:47:56 <Zakim> ... Cynthia_Shelly, Jon_Gunderson, James_Craig
15:47:56 <Zakim> On IRC I see jcraig, richardschwerdtfeger, cyns, David_MacD_Lenovo, davidb, clown, jongunderson, jamesn, mattking, bgaraventa1979, janina_, RRSAgent, Zakim, MichaelC, asurkov,
15:47:56 <Zakim> ... MarkS, joanie, janina, trackbot
15:48:39 <janina_> q?
15:48:40 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
15:48:48 <janina_> ack sh
15:48:49 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack ShaneM
15:48:55 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to talk about scoped behavior of tabindex
15:49:05 <MichaelC> zakim, take up item 13
15:49:05 <clown> agenda?
15:49:10 <Zakim> agendum 13. "Bugzilla vs Tracker" taken up [from jcraig]
15:49:35 <jamesn> scribe: jamesn
15:50:06 <jamesn> mc: at the moment we are set up with space in bugzilla but the only component is the UAIG
15:50:16 <jcraig> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23803
15:50:27 <jamesn> mc: have not been using bugzilla as a central part of our issue management at the moment
15:50:43 <jamesn> mc: if we do it we need to work out how it fits into our issue management approach
15:51:04 <jamesn> mc: if an issue is raised through bugzilla is it a formal public comment or not
15:51:12 <jamesn> mc: we have other channels for that
15:51:49 <jcraig> q+
15:51:50 <jamesn> mc: with bugzilla one option is that these are also formal public comments. that is more effort for me
15:52:17 <jamesn> mc: could also state that these are not formal comment requirements and there are no guarantees that will be processed
15:52:27 <jamesn> cs: why is the existing process better?
15:53:11 <jamesn> mc: easier for me in our current process as there are a clear set of steps - we decide on a resolution and send to the commenter. In bugzilla people splatter into the entry what they thinkn
15:53:31 <jamesn> mc: it is harder to differentiante the group input from randoms from the filer
15:54:01 <jamesn> mc: hard to assertain when we have reached consensus and when can close the comment
15:54:09 <jamesn> mc: tidiness vs increased openness
15:54:14 <jamesn> mc: options
15:54:18 <jamesn> mc: not use at all
15:54:27 <jamesn> mc: use both bugzilla and current
15:54:33 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+
15:54:38 <janina_> q?
15:54:43 <jamesn> mc: or lets move to bugzilla for everything
15:55:12 <jamesn> mc: i think anyone can change the state
15:55:31 <jamesn> jc: think that isn't true. can comment but not change state
15:55:35 <jcraig> q?
15:55:49 <jamesn> mc: wanted to get the groups input
15:55:51 <jcraig> ack me
15:55:59 <cyns> q+
15:56:01 <jamesn> mc: caveat if more work then want help
15:56:13 <jcraig> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23803
15:56:49 <jamesn> jc: SF emailed to ask this to happen as there is a strange process
15:57:03 <jamesn> cs: agree that the tracker is hard to use
15:58:03 <jamesn> jc: editorial issues and some big issues come in. Think that perhaps sometimes we create an issue in trackbot for things which are larger but it would be nice to be in one place and in public.
15:58:14 <jamesn> jc: I am all for adding bugzilla
15:58:42 <jamesn> mc: a bugzilla bug can be a feature request or a bug or something else
15:59:20 <jamesn> rs: I want some sort of command-line utility
15:59:27 <jamesn> rs: from IRC
15:59:34 <janina_> ack r
15:59:57 <jamesn> jc: propose to stop using tracker except for issues.
16:00:10 <jamesn> cs: biggest issue of tracker is that you can't assign it to someone
16:00:31 <jamesn> mc: bugzilla, tracker and the comment tracker. 3 different tools
16:00:49 <janina_> q?
16:01:04 <jamesn> mc: would we want to move both into bugzilla?
16:01:20 <jamesn> mc: others have used the comment tracker in the past
16:01:42 <jamesn> mc: by design much is only visible to WG members
16:02:03 <jamesn> db: mc should have a voice in this as has big stake in this
16:02:45 <jamesn> mc: hard requirment is that LC draft need to receive public comments and need to respond, be archived on mailing list, and be a group consensus
16:03:01 <jamesn> mc: then commenter can agree or not
16:03:19 <jamesn> mc: have always needed to be very clear on what is a comment because of this rule
16:03:34 <jamesn> mc: we might deal with other stuff but won't track it
16:04:59 <janina_> q?
16:06:06 <jamesn> mk: in bugzilla when choose what filing against could you have a coponent for ARIA 1.1 comment
16:06:34 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
16:06:39 <MichaelC> q+
16:06:53 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack cyns
16:06:53 <janina_> ack c
16:07:24 <jamesn> cs: 2 things. My requirement is to have all the stuff in 1 place. I would prefer that that is a bug tracking system.
16:07:31 <janina_> q+
16:07:46 <jamesn> cs: want everything to be assignable
16:07:59 <joanie> +1000 to cyns's comments
16:08:25 <jamesn> cs: I have a product that does a lot of this. Similar to bugzilla in a lot of ways but can do cool process tracking etc.
16:08:33 <jcraig> ack Mich
16:09:04 <jcraig> +1 to making Bugzilla the primary tracker
16:09:06 <jamesn> mc: assuming we could make bugzilla meet these requirements does the group want to adopt bugzilla and supplant the commetn tracking tool
16:09:13 <jamesn> +1
16:09:37 <davidb> +1
16:09:42 <clown> +1
16:09:56 <richardschwerdtfeger> +1
16:10:23 <jamesn> js: my only compliant is that buzilla tends to replace email for debate
16:11:34 <jamesn> cs: don't like mail things get lost
16:11:46 <jamesn> jc: son't have to search mailbozes etc.
16:11:56 <jamesn> cs: you get it when you are ready
16:12:12 <jamesn> db: have heard complaints about bugilla accessibility
16:12:17 <clown> s/my only compliant/my only complaint/
16:12:39 <jamesn> db: comments become dicusssion
16:13:12 <jamesn> RESOLUTION: PF adopts bugzilla for formal comment tracking
16:13:49 <clown> q+ to say the comment tracker is for "last call".
16:14:02 <jamesn> cs: want everything in the same place
16:14:23 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
16:14:33 <jamesn> mc: how we process any email comments
16:15:12 <jamesn> mc: at the moment i put things in the PF comment tracker manually. There is no option currently to file automatically into the comment tracker
16:15:24 <davidb> http://www.bugzilla.org/features/
16:15:35 <clown> ack me
16:15:35 <Zakim> Joseph_Scheuhammer, you wanted to say the comment tracker is for "last call".
16:15:36 <davidb> http://www.bugzilla.org/features/#email-in
16:15:46 <janina_> q?
16:15:48 <jamesn> mc: the question is - do we want a central db. do we abandon the other tool?
16:15:51 <janina_> ack jan
16:16:43 <jamesn> RESOLUTION: Stop using the old PF comment tracker
16:17:14 <jamesn> mc: do we want to stop using the trackbot tracker?
16:17:45 <jamesn> jc: if we keep it it should be just for the IRC integration. We could add it and immediately close the issues
16:18:05 <jamesn> clown: what would it take to add trackbot to bugzilla
16:18:18 <jamesn> mc: think we would know if there was
16:18:29 <joanie> supybot has bugzilla plugins
16:19:19 <jamesn> db: is there an irc bot for writing email
16:19:28 <jamesn> db: can email bugs to bugzilla
16:19:57 <jamesn> mc: we would like to migrate for trackbot to bugzilla but need to sort out some irc to bugzilla integration steps
16:20:33 <jamesn> mc: will let steve know this will happen but not in the next 2 weeks
16:21:01 <jamesn> zakim, close this item
16:21:01 <Zakim> agendum 13 closed
16:21:02 <Zakim> I see 11 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:21:02 <Zakim> 1. Scrubbing ARIA 1.1 Issues and Actions https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/17 [from MichaelC]
16:21:09 <jcraig> ISSUE-547 (Matt King): Toolbars need to be treated as composite widgets by assistive technologies but are currently only subclass of structure
16:21:09 <jcraig> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/547
16:21:12 <jamesn> zakim, take up item 1
16:21:12 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Scrubbing ARIA 1.1 Issues and Actions https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/17" taken up [from MichaelC]
16:22:43 <jcraig> q+
16:22:46 <jamesn> mk: toolbar is a structure not a widget. when at gets focus inside a toolbar you can't support the keyboard model unless the AT treats it as a widget. Right now ATs are doing that. not becuase the spec suggests this but instead because we asked them to do so.
16:23:01 <jamesn> mk: what is happening in the wild is what we want to happen.
16:23:07 <jamesn> q+
16:23:37 <jamesn> mk: authoring practices are out of step with the spec and suggests should support arrow keys but can't unless it is a widget
16:23:46 <clown> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/roles#toolbar
16:23:48 <jcraig> I disagree with this proposed change. This would require toolbars to be managed-focus widgets and would therefore not allow other managed-focus widget children such as a radiogroup. Radio groups are common in toolbars (example: document editor controls for alignment left, right, or justified)…
16:23:48 <jcraig> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-pf/2012OctDec/0246.html
16:24:17 <davidb> http://access.aol.com/dhtml-style-guide-working-group/#toolbar
16:25:03 <jamesn> jc: your assumption that we want to do this is based on a behaviour which is unique to certain toolbars and platforms.
16:25:40 <jamesn> mk: you can't do this unless you allow this.
16:25:50 <jamesn> ack jcraig
16:26:19 <jamesn> jc: can either use full keyboard access - so depends on how it is set up
16:26:35 <jamesn> mk: not consistent - it is the user's preference
16:27:34 <jamesn> mk: how can the author manage focus if the at doesn't show the toolbar as a widget
16:28:15 <jamesn> jc: because VO doesn't intercept key presses then this is no issue
16:29:39 <bgaraventa1979> I'm confused, according to http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/roles#toolbar managing focus is mentioned as part of the widget, so it supports either method of navigation, single tab stop and arrow keys with aria-activedescendant?
16:29:41 <jamesn> jn: hasmanagedfocus would solve. kind of like role=application but much more contrained and likely for people to get it right
16:30:01 <jamesn> rs: think this would help
16:30:24 <jamesn> mk: why would you want a toolbar without managed focus?
16:31:13 <jamesn> mk: you mean managed focus with arrow keys rather than tab
16:31:48 <jcraig> q+
16:32:44 <jcraig> ack jamesn
16:33:06 <jamesn> jc: this is why i want to keep ui designation behaviour out of the spec
16:33:42 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
16:33:52 <jamesn> jc: we should not spec this kind of behaviour in the technical specifciations
16:34:04 <jamesn> jc: we shouldn't assume that all toolbars behave the same
16:34:11 <bgaraventa1979> what happens if a toolbar has an edit field? single tab stop and arrowing shouldn't apply, so functionality should be determined based on the implementation
16:34:15 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+
16:34:51 <bgaraventa1979> q+
16:35:06 <janina_> q?
16:35:11 <jcraig> ack me
16:35:19 <jamesn> cs: a less sophisticated dev who is trying to use aria is going to assume that the blue thing a the top is the toolbar. While there are some things that should create berowser behaviour this isn't one
16:36:35 <jcraig> I second closing the issue
16:37:14 <jamesn> mk: perhaps the ADG is too prespriptive. what we are doing a lot is hacking things like toolbar and use them in ways where we are being too prescrpitve for the authors. What is being highlighted is the lack of widget roles and not toolbar. Perhaps we should just close this and look at more widget roles
16:37:19 <jcraig> We have other issues tracking "managedfocus" and other roles, so this can/should be closed.
16:38:14 <jamesn> mk: if we did it with a property and applied it to a region would this be like an applicaton region.
16:38:28 <jcraig> q?
16:38:29 <jamesn> need to look what the allowed roles would be for that property
16:38:30 <jcraig> ack r
16:38:36 <cyns> q+ to say that just becuase some screen readers doing something with poor usability based on a role, doesn't mean that the role should go away
16:38:52 <jamesn> rs: any objections to adding a managed focus property in 1.1
16:39:17 <janina_> ack b
16:39:49 <janina_> q?
16:40:14 <clown> q+ to note that application role is a landmark.
16:40:16 <jamesn> cs: just because some screen readers do something poorly we shouldn't throw out a role
16:40:24 <cyns> ack me
16:40:24 <Zakim> cyns, you wanted to say that just becuase some screen readers doing something with poor usability based on a role, doesn't mean that the role should go away
16:42:14 <davidb> q?
16:42:23 <jcraig> q+ to close issue-547
16:42:25 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
16:42:44 <jcraig> issue-640
16:42:44 <trackbot> issue-640 -- Investigate aria-hasmanagedfocus to indicate whether a region manages focus to enable complex widgets -- raised
16:42:44 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/640
16:42:47 <clown> ack me
16:42:47 <Zakim> Joseph_Scheuhammer, you wanted to note that application role is a landmark.
16:42:47 <jamesn> clown: want to note that applicatoion is a landmark so is useful for navigation
16:42:55 <janina_> q?
16:43:14 <jcraig> action: jcraig to patch issue-640
16:43:15 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1362 - Patch issue-640 [on James Craig - due 2014-02-01].
16:43:16 <clown> scribenick:  clown
16:43:22 <jcraig> ack me
16:43:22 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to close issue-547
16:43:31 <jcraig> action-1362
16:43:31 <trackbot> action-1362 -- James Craig to Patch issue-640 -- due 2014-02-01 -- OPEN
16:43:31 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1362
16:44:09 <jcraig> close issue-547
16:44:09 <trackbot> Closed issue-547.
16:44:18 <jcraig> close issue-640
16:44:18 <trackbot> Closed issue-640.
16:45:23 <richardschwerdtfeger> RESOLUTION: create a new ARIA attribute to let ATs know that the element manages focus to address issue 1362
16:45:38 <jcraig> ISSUE-554 (Alex Surkov): Should elements inherit certain attr values from ancestor elements? aria-relevant does. What about aria-required and aria-invalid?
16:45:39 <jcraig> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/554
16:45:40 <jcraig> ISSUE-602 (James Craig): Need a role or property to indicate a text field is intended for audio or visual CAPTCHA input.
16:45:42 <jcraig> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/602
16:45:43 <jcraig> ISSUE-603 (James Craig): Need an attr to indicate element activation triggers audio, video, etc.
16:45:45 <jcraig> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/603
16:45:46 <jcraig> ISSUE-627 (Joseph Scheuhammer): Conflict between aria-autocomplete and HTML5 autocomplete.
16:45:48 <jcraig> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/627
16:45:49 <jcraig> ISSUE-633 (Matt King): listbox and tree may contain only static items; badly need interactive widgets that can contain interactive typed items
16:45:49 <jcraig> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/633
16:46:05 <clown> break for five minutes.
16:46:46 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #aria
16:50:45 <ShaneM> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:50:45 <Zakim> On the phone I see Matt_King, PF_FtF
16:50:46 <Zakim> PF_FtF has Shane_McCarron, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, David_Bolter, Bryan_Garaventa, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Joanie_Diggs, James_Nurthen, Mark_Sadecki, Michael_Cooper, David_MacDonald,
16:50:46 <Zakim> ... Cynthia_Shelly, Jon_Gunderson, James_Craig
16:55:03 <clown> kaboooom!
16:55:10 <jcraig> ISSUE-554 (Alex Surkov): Should elements inherit certain attr values from ancestor elements? aria-relevant does. What about aria-required and aria-invalid?
16:55:10 <jcraig> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/554
16:55:29 <clown> JC:  alex is not here, maybe we should discuss late.
16:55:39 <clown> s/late./later/
16:56:10 <clown> JC:  if you have an aria-required on a group, do all the items in the group get it?
16:56:17 <jcraig> ISSUE-602 (James Craig): Need a role or property to indicate a text field is intended for audio or visual CAPTCHA input.
16:56:18 <jcraig> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/602
16:56:19 <clown> DB:  let's wait until alex is around.
16:56:40 <clown> JC:  By default most screen readers have an echo while you type.
16:56:58 <clown> JC: and you hear not only the CAPTCHA, but also the type echo.
16:57:12 <clown> RS:  why not?  Easy to add?
16:57:24 <clown> JN:  I don't want the captcha role.
16:57:43 <joanie> role=thisisevil
16:57:56 <davidb> :)
16:58:24 <clown> MK:  this shoulld be an informative property, if we do this?
16:58:30 <clown> JC:  what to call it?
16:58:48 <clown> MK:  Indicate that this this problematic for the SR user.
16:58:57 <clown> JS:  Is this 1.1 or 2.0?
16:59:04 <clown> RS:  It's not that bad.
16:59:10 <clown> CS:  I think it's 2.0.
16:59:18 <clown> MK:  Is it a pressing problem?
16:59:19 <jamesn> +1 for 2.0
16:59:26 <clown> JS:  James says it is.
16:59:47 <clown> JC:  It would give us a way to say if users are typing, not to echo.
17:00:05 <clown> MK:  That's something that sr users do is turn off echo.
17:00:05 <ShaneM> CAPTCHA is uniquitous and MUST be a challenge for some classes of users.  like old folks like me.
17:00:15 <clown> JC:  Those are power users.
17:00:34 <clown> MK:  It is so hard to predict that the user wants this behaviour.
17:00:47 <clown> MK:  to put this responsibility on the author...
17:01:08 <clown> JC:  I"m not saying that.  Onlly to inidcate that the text field is a captcha.
17:01:41 <clown> JN:  We have a policy to not use captchas since it gives false sense of security.
17:01:49 <clown> JN:  They don't really work.
17:01:53 <joanie> q+
17:02:05 <clown> MK:  Yes, I can use plugins to get past the captcha.
17:02:16 <clown> CS:  Let's move this ot 2.0
17:02:23 <clown> JS:  The room is saying "punt".
17:02:32 <David_MacD_Lenovo> @matt what is that FF plugin to defeat Captcha
17:02:43 <clown> JC:  Let me come back with a better proposla (use case?)
17:02:51 <clown> s/proposla/proposal/
17:03:04 <ShaneM> I can live with punt
17:03:18 <clown> JS:  We have agreed to punt.  Let's proceed.
17:03:33 <clown> MK:  I thought this was 554.
17:03:39 <joanie> q?
17:03:45 <joanie> ack joanie
17:03:52 <clown> JC:  David said let's talk about 554 when alex is here; so we moved on.
17:04:09 <clown> JN:  we should find a way for people to turn off echo.
17:04:12 <jcraig> ISSUE-603 (James Craig): Need an attr to indicate element activation triggers audio, video, etc.
17:04:12 <jcraig> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/603
17:04:36 <davidb> hasmedia?
17:04:41 <jcraig> UIAccessibilityTraitStartsMediaSession
17:05:05 <clown> JC: If you play an audio track or a video track, you press the play button.
17:05:12 <clown> JC:  But will suppress some of the output.
17:05:22 <clown> RS:  what output do you want to supress?
17:05:31 <clown> JC:  That depends on the AT.
17:05:44 <clown> JC:  all this does is indicate that when you press the control, then some media will play.
17:05:58 <davidb> q+
17:06:09 <clown> JS:  Talkback on android says the tilte of the movie that will play.
17:06:25 <clown> JC:  I"m about to play a song.  Press the button and it plays.
17:06:37 <clown> RS:  It's okay with me.  Might be difficult to get authors to do it.
17:06:46 <clown> MK:  It's informative to screen readers again.
17:07:02 <clown> JS:  Is there a general way to figure out what kind of file?
17:07:19 <clown> JC:  That's something else.  This just indicates that something is about to happen if pressed.
17:07:32 <clown> JC:  It may be a sound effect.
17:08:04 <davidb> ack me
17:08:13 <jcraig> jcraig to patch issue-603
17:08:19 <clown> JC:  I will give myself an action for this issue, hearing not objections.
17:08:29 <clown> DB::  You want it modality speicifc, right.
17:08:38 <clown> JC:  Audio vs. video?
17:08:42 <clown> DB:  Yes, or both.
17:08:46 <jcraig> action: jcraig to patch issue-603
17:08:46 <clown> JC:  we can do that.
17:08:46 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1363 - Patch issue-603 [on James Craig - due 2014-02-01].
17:09:11 <jcraig> action-1363: davidb make it modality specific (audio vs video)
17:09:11 <trackbot> Notes added to action-1363 Patch issue-603.
17:09:27 <jcraig> close issue-603
17:09:27 <trackbot> Closed issue-603.
17:09:49 <jcraig> ISSUE-627 (Joseph Scheuhammer): Conflict between aria-autocomplete and HTML5 autocomplete.
17:09:50 <jcraig> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/627
17:09:58 <jongunderson> JC: Next one is JospephS issue
17:11:08 <jongunderson> JosephS: Found in testing auto complete with input element, it says that it is auto complete is always on
17:11:20 <jongunderson> JN: Can't you turn it off
17:11:55 <jcraig> http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-html5-20110525/common-input-element-attributes.html#the-autocomplete-attribute
17:11:59 <jongunderson> JosephS: It is a problem with lecacy apps that don't set auto complete, autocomplete by default is on in HTML 5 implementations
17:12:14 <jongunderson> JC: It is an enumerated attribute
17:12:23 <jongunderson> JC: This is OK
17:12:28 <jcraig> html5:*@autocomplete is enum not boolean
17:13:11 <jongunderson> CS: The expected behavior, if you have an auto-complete....
17:13:24 <jongunderson> JosephS: Alex says HTML5 wins
17:13:40 <jongunderson> JC: Clearly need this in 1.1
17:13:49 <jcraig> ISSUE-633 (Matt King): listbox and tree may contain only static items; badly need interactive widgets that can contain interactive typed items
17:13:49 <jcraig> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/633
17:13:52 <jongunderson> JC: Last one is one of MK issues
17:14:11 <jongunderson> JC: ISSUE-633: listbox and tree may contain only static items; badly need interactive widgets that can contain interactive typed items
17:14:20 <jongunderson> JC: has managed focus is part of this
17:14:39 <jongunderson> JC: MK is this actionable as a standalone issue
17:14:53 <jongunderson> MK: I am willing to take an action
17:15:07 <jongunderson> JC: Text for implementation guide?
17:15:22 <jongunderson> MK: If we are creating a role, we will need text for the mapping table
17:15:35 <jongunderson> MK: I will take that action
17:15:50 <jcraig> action: matt to propose text for issue-633 in spec and uaig
17:15:50 <trackbot> Error finding 'matt'. You can review and register nicknames at <https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/users>.
17:16:06 <jcraig> action: king to propose text for issue-633 in spec and uaig
17:16:06 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1364 - Propose text for issue-633 in spec and uaig [on Matthew King - due 2014-02-01].
17:16:08 <Zakim> +Shane_McCarron
17:17:14 <jongunderson> JC: That was all of the 6 that I wanted to go through
17:17:24 <jongunderson> JS: We have 43 minutes
17:17:25 <jcraig> agenda?
17:17:41 <jongunderson> JC: Let's look at the other agenda items
17:18:00 <jcraig> drop item 1
17:18:01 <jongunderson> JC: We have more issues these, these were just the important ones
17:18:08 <jcraig> drop item 4
17:18:13 <jongunderson> JS: We need to talk about time lines
17:18:26 <jongunderson> JS: Make 2.0 about extensibility
17:18:40 <jcraig> drop item 7
17:18:50 <jcraig> drop item 8
17:18:50 <jongunderson> JC: Going through remaining issues...
17:19:01 <jcraig> agenda?
17:19:02 <jongunderson> RS: I would like to talk about IndieUI
17:19:31 <jongunderson> RS: The pervasiveness of mobile devices
17:20:07 <jongunderson> RS: One of the things not in 1.0 was the whole keyboard and other devices, but we are at the point where keyboard is so important
17:20:26 <jongunderson> RS: If we are redoing the authoring practices we should look at this at the same time
17:20:33 <jcraig> q+
17:20:39 <jongunderson> RS: The interaction pieces needs to be a part of the spec
17:21:00 <jongunderson> RS: I get this all the time, is the authoring guide a standard
17:21:16 <jongunderson> RS: Thrid party just wants to put tab index on everything
17:21:23 <jongunderson> RS: Good time to talk about this
17:21:27 <jongunderson> JC: I am on the cue
17:21:32 <davidb> q?
17:21:35 <jongunderson> JC: We can do a couple of things
17:21:43 <janina_> q?
17:21:49 <janina_> ack j
17:21:51 <cyns> cyns has joined #aria
17:22:06 <jongunderson> JC: We are talking about IndieUI events, most people have some idea, but I will summarize
17:22:25 <Zakim> -Shane_McCarron
17:22:39 <jongunderson> JC: I would like to keep is separate from accessibility, because it is not about just accessibility
17:22:57 <Zakim> +Shane_McCarron
17:23:03 <janina_> q?
17:23:06 <jongunderson> JC: The spec is about make it easier to manage device specific events
17:23:24 <jongunderson> JC: Voice and other AT cannnot control these interfaces
17:23:59 <jongunderson> JC: We can make it easier to control delta events, by making it much easier
17:24:16 <jongunderson> JC: We want developers because it is easier for them
17:24:25 <jongunderson> JC: If we make it simple they will use it
17:24:36 <jongunderson> JC: This is NOT an accessibility thing
17:24:46 <jongunderson> JC: It is much easier than managing 10 events
17:25:00 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:25:06 <jongunderson> JC: If it about accessibility it will not get as much attention
17:25:20 <jongunderson> CS: ARIA has had very good uptake
17:25:31 <jongunderson> JC: 99% of pages have no aria
17:25:56 <clown> q?
17:26:04 <jongunderson> RS: We need to figure out how to get developers to pick this up
17:26:05 <MichaelC> q+ to ask about taking over the world
17:26:10 <janina_> q?
17:26:11 <jongunderson> RS: in a big way
17:26:12 <clown> http://trends.builtwith.com/docinfo/WAI-ARIA
17:26:19 <jongunderson> RS: We have to do this
17:26:29 <clown> some stats on aria uptake:  http://trends.builtwith.com/docinfo/WAI-ARIA
17:26:33 <jongunderson> RS: We can always in our authoring practices ....
17:26:49 <jongunderson> RS: It is a lot easier than what we have now
17:27:08 <jongunderson> RS: I know this is not ARIA, but how do we get ...
17:27:19 <jongunderson> MK: What are the timeline?
17:27:32 <jongunderson> JC: A heart beat draft in a month
17:27:48 <jongunderson> JS: And a last call this spring
17:28:01 <jongunderson> JC: People won't read it until last call
17:28:19 <jongunderson> JC: Evangelism has to happen organically
17:28:39 <jongunderson> JC: We have to separate this from accessibility or we will loose it
17:28:54 <jongunderson> JC: Probably WebApps
17:29:05 <jongunderson> RS: Is Microsoft part of WebApps
17:29:17 <jongunderson> RS: I have a meeting with Microsoft to discuss this
17:29:29 <jongunderson> JC: Last call in spring may be premeture
17:29:55 <jongunderson> JC: My personal experience is that people think this is interesting
17:29:57 <MichaelC> ack me
17:29:57 <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to ask about taking over the world
17:30:26 <jamesn> q+ to say that some polyfills for this would really help convince people of its utility
17:30:29 <jongunderson> MC: We want ARIA to be more than just a patch, rather a more complete solution
17:30:35 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:30:38 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+
17:30:43 <jongunderson> MC: Do we want to try to take over the world approach
17:30:46 <davidb> q+
17:31:20 <jongunderson> MC: I think if we decide that we want to be the accessibility solution, then we want to have a unified brand, including IndieUI
17:31:59 <jongunderson> MC: Attempts to take over the world are more aspirational, it often does always turn out that way, so JC approach then makes more sense
17:32:16 <janina_> q?
17:32:19 <jongunderson> MC: This is an orientation question, and will make a difference on how we market it
17:32:33 <jongunderson> RS: What is going to insure that we have uptake
17:32:37 <cyns> q+
17:32:48 <jcraig> ack richardschwerdtfeger
17:32:57 <ShaneM> q+ to say that, while I don't think I can actually speak from here, I want to say that if we just imagine that "accessible" means "making the web semantically accessible for everyone, meat or machine" then things like IndieUI are clearly within our scope.
17:33:12 <jongunderson> RS: At IBM it took a lot to educate people at IBM, but now it is not a second class citizen
17:33:13 <Zakim> -Shane_McCarron
17:33:59 <jongunderson> RS: If it is more strategic ..., our mobile people..., the whole lines blur, a noisy room I need captions
17:34:07 <David_MacD_Lenovo> q+
17:34:37 <jongunderson> RS: It is part of an education issue, if it goes into I don't care, I would like to see that it is not limited to just HTML
17:34:48 <jongunderson> RS: We need it for SVG interaction
17:34:56 <jongunderson> JC: It should work fine with SVG
17:34:56 <davidb> ack me
17:34:58 <jamesn> ack me
17:34:59 <Zakim> jamesn, you wanted to say that some polyfills for this would really help convince people of its utility
17:35:07 <janina_> ack jamesn
17:35:08 <MichaelC> q+ to say the WAI strategy in the past was spec review - are we revisiting that?
17:35:18 <jongunderson> JN: If we can get developer using it
17:35:24 <jongunderson> RS: IBM would use it
17:35:43 <jongunderson> RS: But we got to get people moving on this
17:35:54 <jongunderson> RS: We can very easily use it in authoring practices
17:36:12 <jongunderson> RS: At least you are describing what it does
17:36:32 <jongunderson> JS: I tried to talk to CMN about it
17:36:46 <jongunderson> JC: We might need to move it out of WAI
17:36:51 <janina_> ack c
17:37:01 <davidb> i want IndieUI
17:37:09 <jongunderson> CS: So I have some concerns about IndieUI, how does it interact with ARIA
17:37:23 <jongunderson> CS: People ask why is ARIA one way
17:37:34 <jongunderson> JC: All of the plateforms work in their own way
17:37:48 <jongunderson> JC: We have actions and AXIncrement .....
17:38:34 <jongunderson> CS: One of the concerns with IndieUI, we have aria is one way and then we add this other thing that is not ARIA, I would like to complete aria 2.0 first
17:38:59 <jongunderson> CS: I am not sure how IndiUI gives us the other half ARIA
17:39:12 <jongunderson> JS: I think it is the other half of ARIA
17:39:28 <jongunderson> s/JS/JC/
17:39:46 <joanie> cyns: ^^
17:39:59 <jongunderson> JC: People are excited about the new HTML 5 controls like date picker
17:40:40 <jongunderson> JS: it we are a joint group with with WebApps
17:40:50 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:40:56 <jcraig> ack Sh
17:40:56 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to say that, while I don't think I can actually speak from here, I want to say that if we just imagine that "accessible" means "making the web semantically
17:40:56 <cyns> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ee671594(v=vs.85).aspx
17:40:59 <Zakim> ... accessible for everyone, meat or machine" then things like IndieUI are clearly within our scope.
17:41:08 <jongunderson> CS: We have to make our apps accessible for the government, and we need the other half of ARIA
17:41:32 <jongunderson> JC: reading Shane's comment
17:42:07 <jongunderson> DM: I was on the WCAG group and now I am really busy since it is part of the law
17:42:10 <MichaelC> ack d
17:42:26 <jongunderson> DM: I can't keep up with demand
17:42:37 <jongunderson> RS: we can address this with WCAG techniques
17:42:44 <jongunderson> JC: Can be in authoring practices
17:42:57 <jcraig> s/I think it is the other half of ARIA/I think it is the other half of ARIA, but it's more than that; it's making interaction patterns easier to implement for everyone./
17:43:10 <jongunderson> RS: Your platform will need a keyboard way to make it accessible
17:43:10 <MichaelC> ack me
17:43:10 <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to say the WAI strategy in the past was spec review - are we revisiting that?
17:43:17 <janina_> q?
17:43:19 <jongunderson> MC: I have a meta question
17:44:04 <cyns> q+ to say that our mission is to create the accessibility layer, ARIA is incomplete and we need to finish it
17:44:10 <jongunderson> MC: In the past we have used spec review to coordinate accessibility, now we are talking about making new technologies, is this direction we want to go
17:44:16 <jongunderson> RS: I am not following
17:44:34 <janina_> q?
17:44:36 <cyns> q+ to say "both/and"
17:44:58 <jongunderson> MC: Do we want work with other groups on integrating accessibility into other specs, or create new technologies
17:45:21 <jongunderson> RS: What we are talking to taking events to a higher level
17:45:33 <jongunderson> ... discuss of a previous spec ....
17:46:04 <jongunderson> RS: You can have people part of other working groups, to make sure accessibility is addressed
17:46:32 <jongunderson> RS: we are hitting on something very sensitive, but if we can make them think it is their idea
17:46:43 <jongunderson> RS: We are not throwing it over the wall....
17:46:51 <jongunderson> JS: We are out of time
17:47:15 <jongunderson> CS: I don't think we need to make a choice about working with other groups or making new specs
17:47:18 <janina_> 1~ack c
17:47:25 <jongunderson> MC: I just want us to be aware
17:48:00 <jongunderson> JC: I ARIA will be two way, this a proposal, if you have something else lets see something in proposal form
17:48:10 <jongunderson> CS: Thats reasonable
17:48:21 <jongunderson> JS: TOPIC: Timeline
17:48:29 <jongunderson> TOPIC: Timelines
17:48:43 <jongunderson> MC: Primarily the 1.1 timeline
17:49:31 <jongunderson> MC: we have decided to take ARIA 1.1 the middle of next year for last call, and then track HTML 5.1 for recommendation
17:49:52 <jongunderson> JC: It will take me a couple of months to get all of these actions processed
17:50:06 <jongunderson> JC: There maybe a couple of things that would push them out
17:50:25 <jongunderson> MC: Will there be issues what will take extended discussion?
17:50:35 <jongunderson> DB: Unkown
17:51:15 <jongunderson> MK: The sooner we get some thing in draft form will help understand how much time for consensus
17:51:25 <jongunderson> MC: That could fill up a year of meetings
17:51:40 <jongunderson> JC: We should probably try to get the meetings more efficient
17:52:02 <jongunderson> JC: We tend to use a 90 minute meeting to get 60 minutes of work done
17:52:10 <MichaelC> q+ to talk ARIA 2 timeline also
17:52:36 <jongunderson> MK: It would be important to identify the most difficult issues and set deadlines on resolving them
17:52:57 <jcraig> s/We tend to use a 90 minute meeting to get 60 minutes of work done/We tend to use a 90 minute meeting *every week*, to get ~60 minutes of work done *every month*/
17:53:08 <jongunderson> MC: We can adopt meeting strategies, we need to get people to get their actions done
17:53:15 <jongunderson> CS: Can we move the meeting time?
17:53:52 <jongunderson> JC: It he doesn't need to be there, I would like to move the meeting times
17:54:18 <jongunderson> JC: Can we ping Stephan to see if he cares if we move the meeting
17:54:30 <jongunderson> CS: 8:00 does not for me
17:54:58 <jongunderson> MC: Lets do a conference call time
17:55:15 <jongunderson> MC: I feel a couple strong desires to move the call
17:55:36 <jongunderson> RS: I have a lot of international calls, I would like to do it ion the afternoons
17:55:45 <jcraig> ack cy
17:55:45 <Zakim> cyns, you wanted to say that our mission is to create the accessibility layer, ARIA is incomplete and we need to finish it and to say "both/and"
17:55:48 <jongunderson> MC: ARIA 2.0 timeline, CS is ahead of me
17:55:49 <cyns> ack me
17:55:50 <janina_> ack c
17:55:53 <jongunderson> CS: Thats old
17:55:55 <janina_> ack m
17:55:55 <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to talk ARIA 2 timeline also
17:56:08 <jongunderson> MC: Suunds like 1.1 is achievable
17:56:35 <jongunderson> MC: We have been talking about ARIA 2.0 in parallel, and it is the same people
17:56:51 <jongunderson> CS: Modularization helps, since they can be sub groups
17:57:04 <jongunderson> CS: I might be able to work on other things
17:57:13 <jcraig> q+ to talk about ARIA 2.0 doc format
17:57:22 <jongunderson> CS: Modular calls can be a different times
17:57:33 <jongunderson> MC: When do we want to start real work?
17:57:41 <jongunderson> JS: ePub is starting monday
17:57:49 <jongunderson> RS: We need test cases and testing
17:58:07 <jongunderson> CS: Graphics modules would have different peopele
17:58:16 <jcraig> ack me
17:58:16 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to talk about ARIA 2.0 doc format
17:58:28 <jongunderson> MC: Start on the modules be defer on how they will be integrated later
17:59:07 <jongunderson> JC: the document format requirements, it is in paragraphs and prose, if we changes the document format, we can make it easier for developers
17:59:18 <jongunderson> JC: Javscript interface with examples
18:00:02 <jongunderson> JC: 4 pages of paragraphs, we need to turn it into algorithms and ....
18:00:27 <jongunderson> MC: I think we need some editorial proposals
18:00:47 <jongunderson> RS: I don't want it to be like HTML 5
18:01:03 <jongunderson> MC: We need to be strict on timelines
18:01:33 <MichaelC> zakim, list attendees
18:01:33 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Matt_King, Shane_McCarron, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, David_Bolter, Bryan_Garaventa, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Joanie_Diggs, James_Nurthen,
18:01:36 <Zakim> ... Mark_Sadecki, Michael_Cooper, David_MacDonald, Cynthia_Shelly, Jon_Gunderson, James_Craig
18:01:39 <Zakim> -Matt_King
18:01:43 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
18:01:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/01/25-aria-minutes.html MichaelC
18:02:07 <Zakim> -PF_FtF
18:02:09 <Zakim> Team_(aria)14:00Z has ended
18:02:09 <Zakim> Attendees were Matt_King, Shane_McCarron, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, David_Bolter, Bryan_Garaventa, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Joanie_Diggs, James_Nurthen, Mark_Sadecki, Michael_Cooper,
18:02:09 <Zakim> ... David_MacDonald, Cynthia_Shelly, Jon_Gunderson, James_Craig
18:03:33 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
18:03:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/01/25-aria-minutes.html MichaelC
18:03:54 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make log world
18:04:00 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
18:04:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/01/25-aria-minutes.html MichaelC
18:04:01 <MichaelC> zakim, bye
18:04:02 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria
18:04:12 <clown> clown has left #aria
18:05:14 <MichaelC> s/close issue-603/scribe: jongunderson/
18:05:19 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
18:05:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/01/25-aria-minutes.html MichaelC
18:13:41 <MichaelC> rrsagent, bye
18:13:41 <RRSAgent> I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/25-aria-actions.rdf :
18:13:41 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jamesn suggest new text for the application role [1]
18:13:41 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/25-aria-irc#T15-17-29
18:13:41 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jcraig to patch issue-640 [2]
18:13:41 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/25-aria-irc#T16-43-14
18:13:41 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jcraig to patch issue-603 [3]
18:13:41 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/25-aria-irc#T17-08-46
18:13:41 <RRSAgent> ACTION: matt to propose text for issue-633 in spec and uaig [4]
18:13:41 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/25-aria-irc#T17-15-50
18:13:41 <RRSAgent> ACTION: king to propose text for issue-633 in spec and uaig [5]
18:13:41 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/25-aria-irc#T17-16-06
18:13:47 <jcraig> jcraig has left #aria