14:05:44 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
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14:05:46 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
14:05:48 <Zakim> Team_(aria)13:43Z has now started
14:05:48 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
14:05:49 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
14:05:49 <trackbot> Date: 24 January 2014
14:05:49 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
14:05:55 <bgaraventa1979> q+if I may, I would like to add a topic for discussion regarding the intended purpose of role=dialog, alertdialog, and application, since it's unclear how they increase accessibility by reducing navigation, example jQuery UI modals
14:06:03 <jongunderson> jongunderson has joined #aria
14:06:29 <mattking> mattking has joined #aria
14:06:30 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make log world
14:06:33 <MarkS> agenda?
14:06:50 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #aria
14:07:58 <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
14:08:08 <MichaelC> zakim, Mozilla is PF_FtF
14:08:08 <Zakim> +PF_FtF; got it
14:08:21 <MarkS> Topic: Modularization
14:08:59 <MichaelC> zakim, PF has Shane_McCarron, Jon_Gunderson, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Janina_Sajka, Bryan_Garaventa, Alexander_Surkov, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Joanie_Diggs, James_Nurthen, Mark_Sadecki, James_Craig, Michael_Cooper
14:08:59 <Zakim> +Shane_McCarron, Jon_Gunderson, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Janina_Sajka, Bryan_Garaventa, Alexander_Surkov, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Joanie_Diggs, James_Nurthen, Mark_Sadecki, James_Craig,
14:09:03 <Zakim> ... Michael_Cooper; got it
14:09:06 <MarkS> RS: by modularization, I don't want to make ARIA a monolithic spec that has all ontologies we can think up in it.
14:09:14 <ShaneM> zakim, I am Shane_McCarron
14:09:14 <Zakim> sorry, ShaneM, I do not see a party named 'Shane_McCarron'
14:09:31 <MarkS> ...I don't think we're going to see ePub semantics apply to an SVG drawing for instance
14:09:37 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #aria
14:09:47 <MarkS> ...ePub wants to get their info exposed to AT so they can get it to work on their platform
14:10:08 <MarkS> ... OWL, break off that taxonomy and do a separate thing based on charting
14:10:18 <MarkS> ...those who wish to implement it can go do that
14:10:22 <MichaelC> agenda+ Scrubbing ARIA 1.1 Issues and Actions https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/17
14:10:33 <MarkS> ...should be able to get people to do that with us
14:10:42 <MichaelC> agenda+ ARIA 1.1 additional roles (and possibly something like @aria-roledescription?) e.g., html, svg, epub
14:10:46 <jcraig> q+ to suggest we keep the list of all the possible roles in the same document. for simplification.
14:11:00 <MichaelC> agenda+ HTML 5 Commands (Making keypress work automatically on focusable elements with click events matching certain roles) [jcraig]
14:11:06 <jcraig> ack rich
14:11:14 <MichaelC> agenda+ Keyboard handling within complex widgets with child components [jamesn]
14:11:24 <MichaelC> agenda+ Make 2.0 about extensibility [LisaS]
14:11:40 <MichaelC> agenda+ API harmonization? What is the LCD or superset of the platform APIS? At least the necessary parts [Cyns]
14:11:50 <MarkS> ... this will impact our implementation guides.  A core implementation guide, based on what we have today, in a single doc with base ARIA semantics
14:11:51 <MarkS> ...technologies are moving toward a single DOM
14:11:55 <MichaelC> agenda+ Fixing Live regions (probably ARIA 2?) [jcraig]
14:12:07 <MichaelC> agenda+ RTE API and focus proxy (2.0) [jcraig]
14:12:14 <MarkS> ...tab-index, javascript support, for instance, same events in HTML in SVG
14:12:24 <MarkS> ...common set of events, common DOM
14:12:29 <MichaelC> agenda+ Is IndieUI part of ARIA? [Rich]
14:12:40 <MarkS> ...SVG can bring up an iframe now.  A single model is evolving.
14:12:40 <MichaelC> agenda+ Web Components and ShadowDOM [jcraig]
14:12:47 <MichaelC> agenda+ modularization [jcraig]
14:12:50 <MarkS> ...allows us to have a core implementation guide that can be used in various markups
14:13:02 <MichaelC> agenda+ Cognitive Issues
14:13:15 <MichaelC> agenda+ ARIA controls comply with WCAG? e.g. how/can we make custom rendering Video, Math, etc accessible via ARIA [jcraig]
14:13:24 <MarkS> ...if we want to creat additional semantics, say for SVG, we can have one for charts, reference from SVG spec for roles states and props.
14:13:56 <MarkS> ...in the HTML5 spec, instead of having a mapping guide for everything in HTML5 we can refer to host language semantics in the main document
14:14:11 <MarkS> ...you have to have the mapping.  refer back to the main document
14:15:00 <MarkS> ...if we do this in moderation, we should be successful (looking at you CSS)
14:15:18 <MarkS> JC: do you have a list of modules in mind?
14:15:36 <ShaneM> q+ to talk about M12N publication strategies
14:15:49 <MarkS> RS: SVG, would be called a Drawing Module, visual objects, grammar of graphics
14:16:06 <MarkS> ...analytics, x-axis, y-axis, locations
14:16:19 <MarkS> ...opportunities for a role description in that space
14:16:24 <MarkS> ...think subway map
14:16:46 <MarkS> ...might be able to have users create their own semantics for specialized drawings like that.
14:17:16 <MarkS> JC: Doug emailed last night looking for specific roles to consider
14:17:28 <MarkS> RS: easy to do without thinking about the entire taxonomy
14:17:44 <bgaraventa1979> q+to discuss roles dialog alertdialog and application if time permits
14:17:50 <MarkS> ...Processing, would that be a separate subgroup?
14:17:55 <MarkS> ...Rich Text?
14:18:12 <jcraig> ack me
14:18:12 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to suggest we keep the list of all the possible roles in the same document. for simplification.
14:18:18 <MarkS> ...Stuctural book semantics, Drawings and Processing so far
14:18:35 <MichaelC> q+ to say I would like to use the taxonomy as a base for modularization
14:19:01 <MarkS> JS: will be strange to have core roles and other roles in a separate document.  BE great to be able to pull shared roles into core document.
14:20:13 <MichaelC> q+ to say generating a master list is easy, that doesn´t need to impact modularizing the work
14:20:19 <MarkS> MS: asks about roles differing based on context
14:20:21 <MichaelC> zakim, Cynthia_Shelly has entered PF
14:20:21 <Zakim> +Cynthia_Shelly; got it
14:20:29 <MarkS> JG: article might be an example of that
14:21:14 <MarkS> JC: validation rules might be able to handle problems like that
14:21:18 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
14:21:19 <MarkS> q?
14:21:50 <MarkS> ack sh
14:21:50 <MarkS> SM: we talked about a Grid module yesterday
14:21:50 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to talk about M12N publication strategies
14:21:58 <MarkS> JC: we might not want to go that small. maybe "external data sets"
14:22:35 <cyns> cyns has joined #aria
14:22:38 <jcraig> eg. tables, lists, etc
14:22:47 <MarkS> SM: do we need modules?  Strong case for that.  How do we get those out to the public?  don't need to decide that
14:22:55 <cyns> q+ to speak in favor of a method similar to html5 extension specs
14:23:11 <MichaelC> q+ to say technical modules is one approach, audience modules is another - maybe those are dimensions
14:23:37 <MarkS> ...on avoiding collisions, we can avoid collisions.  the role attribute rec has a mechanism for this, its called namespaces. just scope it.
14:24:05 <MarkS> JC: ePub is already using namespaces
14:24:15 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://www.idpf.org/epub/vocab/structure/
14:24:20 <MarkS> ...can break anything for ePub out.
14:24:51 <richardschwerdtfeger> q/
14:24:52 <MarkS> RS: these are namespaced
14:24:54 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
14:24:57 <MarkS> ack bg
14:24:57 <Zakim> bgaraventa, you wanted to discuss roles dialog alertdialog and application if time permits
14:25:50 <jcraig> AGENDA+ dialog/alertdialog (from Bryan)
14:25:51 <MarkS> BG: if time later on would like to talk about how role = dialog is supposed to improve accessibility.  jQuery live is creating some problems.  Could be a messaging/training issue
14:26:20 <MarkS> RS: jQuery has people working on a11y, but nobody overseeing and verifying it.
14:26:47 <MarkS> ...its a big problem
14:27:11 <MarkS> q?
14:27:13 <MichaelC> ack me
14:27:13 <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to say I would like to use the taxonomy as a base for modularization and to say generating a master list is easy, that doesn´t need to impact modularizing the
14:27:13 <MarkS> ack mi
14:27:16 <Zakim> ... work and to say technical modules is one approach, audience modules is another - maybe those are dimensions
14:29:03 <MarkS> MC: sounds like we are steering towards modularization based on types of content.  I think we should us the taxonomy as a tool to define those.  To me, that would be the core module.  Would have to consider if the core is nothing but abstract roles.  Gives us the framework and an extensibility mechanism.
14:29:13 <MarkS> ...Creating a master list of roles is easy.
14:30:40 <MarkS> ...the other way of looking at this is different audiences.  The core of ARIA is a base tech layer that is of interest only to us and those working closely with us.  Then there are concrete roles that are of interest to a wider audience, implementers for instance, then you have authors who need to know when to use these.
14:30:54 <MarkS> ...multi-dimensionally
14:31:05 <MarkS> ...want to avoid spec proliferation but not one spec to do it all.
14:31:10 <ShaneM> q+ to discuss follow your nose support for roles
14:31:16 <jcraig> q?
14:31:17 <MarkS> ...how would we handle implementation guide...
14:31:18 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+
14:31:50 <MarkS> CS: this sounds too unwieldy to me.
14:31:50 <MarkS> ... what about what HTML is doing with their extension specs.
14:31:59 <jcraig> q+ to state that I think the epub module could be standalone
14:32:12 <MarkS> ...every year do a dot release of ARIA.  If an extension spec is ready at that point, it goes in
14:32:34 <jcraig> q+ to say something like a graphics module should be part of the same document
14:32:36 <MarkS> ...there is a way to work on things separately. but have one spec moving along
14:32:51 <MarkS> MC: these approaches may not be exclusive
14:33:15 <MarkS> ...if we don't have a guiding taxonomy, there will be a divergence in the way problems are solved and we could get collisions.
14:33:29 <MarkS> CS: we don't need to expose it to the users (modularization)
14:33:41 <MarkS> MC: right, not necessary for the consumers to know
14:33:55 <MarkS> ...CSS is creating snapshots.
14:33:55 <jcraig> s/expose it to the users/expose the taxonomy to the users/
14:34:05 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
14:34:13 <MarkS> ack cyns
14:34:13 <Zakim> cyns, you wanted to speak in favor of a method similar to html5 extension specs
14:34:17 <jcraig> q+ to defend the CSS modularization
14:34:33 <MarkS> MC: i think we can solve that with how we pull things together
14:34:42 <jamesn> +1 to cyns on this
14:34:49 <MarkS> CS: i would like to avoid separate documents moving independently
14:34:53 <MarkS> ack s
14:34:53 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to discuss follow your nose support for roles
14:35:04 <MichaelC> q+ to ask if a community groups or extension specs approach is what cyns was thinking?
14:35:43 <MarkS> SM: is there any notion that people who are implementing support for ARIA are using the taxonomy to help drive the architecture of the screen reader?  Are you using it mechanically or visually?
14:35:45 <MichaelC> zakim, David_MacDonald has entered PF
14:35:45 <Zakim> +David_MacDonald; got it
14:36:02 <MarkS> JC: more of a mapping tool for UAs
14:36:58 <MarkS> ...there is an additional cost of developing that way.
14:37:53 <MarkS> CS: MSAA uses COM inheritance, UIA is .net. goal for us to have web and client applications behave the same.  to have ARIA stuff be different is not a feature for us.  in IE we match it as closely as we can.
14:37:55 <jcraig> s/more of a mapping tool for UAs/I think you mean "using it as a mapping tool for UAs" not ATs/
14:38:15 <MarkS> SM: as we expand these roles won't it be harder to find mappings for all of them?
14:39:09 <MarkS> JC: all the same base rendering engine
14:39:23 <MarkS> ...if we determine a particular role is important than we can map it.
14:40:03 <richardschwerdtfeger>  q?
14:40:23 <MichaelC> ack r
14:40:37 <MarkS> RS: HTML is well along at this point, but the drawing and RTE is not
14:40:45 <jongunderson> q+
14:41:05 <MarkS> ...want to avoid just sticking new roles in
14:42:04 <MarkS> RS: what about working on them independently and then rolling it in when its done?
14:42:12 <MarkS> JN: that is what cyns is saying
14:42:30 <MarkS> JC: the great thing about that is that the group working on that could pub a WD a month from now.
14:43:18 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
14:43:20 <jcraig> q+ to suggest a module for html 1:1 role harmonization
14:43:22 <David_MacD_Lenovo> David_MacD_Lenovo has joined #aria
14:43:35 <MichaelC> ack me
14:43:36 <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to ask if a community groups or extension specs approach is what cyns was thinking?
14:43:43 <MarkS> JS: so if we use this model, then these extension can't be rolled in until they reach CR
14:44:07 <MarkS> MC: I think we want a degree of consistency between spec that HTML is not necessarily concerned about.
14:44:42 <MarkS> ...we want to have a taxonomy, we want to have roles, structure, etc.  as long as we are organizing and have a well defined structure, I'm OK with this model.
14:45:13 <MarkS> ...is it on the REC track or not?  If it is, then we have to include it in our REC track. but I think they should be put on our same review cycle
14:45:26 <MarkS> CS: what about 12-18 month pub cycle
14:45:33 <MarkS> agreement
14:46:06 <MarkS> MC: when we receive  module is fairly mature.  we'd be starting from scratch
14:46:38 <jcraig> ack me
14:46:38 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to state that I think the epub module could be standalone and to say something like a graphics module should be part of the same document and to defend the CSS
14:46:41 <Zakim> ... modularization and to suggest a module for html 1:1 role harmonization
14:46:41 <MarkS> q?
14:48:07 <MarkS> JC: CSS does cool think with breaking up CSS grammar into its own specification.  changes infrequently, anytime they add a new property, makes it easier for reviewers to work on.
14:48:52 <MarkS> ...breakdown of different parts of the language.  If you want to review selectors, you only have to review that one doc, or just the new stuff that was added.  Easy for spec authors.  Potentially easy for web authors looking to find specific information.
14:49:41 <MarkS> ...cyns point that it s hard to find info as a web developer is a problem, but its not a major problem because few read our specs to find this out, they read books, articles, etc.
14:50:12 <MarkS> ...for implementers it may be an issue, but that can be solved with a list of the modules or some other organizing document.
14:50:30 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
14:51:14 <MarkS> CS: there is also an issue for reviewers.  whenever I review a CSS module, I find a dependence on another module that isn't in a reviewable state.
14:52:23 <MarkS> JC: the ePub module could be standalone.  greatly simplifies the number of additional roles we need to add to 1.1 if we pull out ePub and Drawing
14:53:14 <MarkS> ...a 1:1 mapping is something that should be done as one of these additional modules.  Should go into a point release.  Paragraph, em, strong, etc.
14:53:22 <MarkS> RS: we could evolve the implementation guide
14:54:07 <MarkS> JC: the implementation guide could point to a map of the 1:1 guide
14:54:24 <David_MacD_Lenovo> q+
14:54:25 <MarkS> RS: i want to get rid of the duplication
14:55:02 <MarkS> MC: are the implementation guides modularized in the same way the feature specs are?
14:55:35 <MarkS> RS: SVG is a host language and would need its own guide.
14:55:59 <MarkS> CS: who would be responsible for the host language mapping
14:56:01 <MarkS> RS: we would
14:56:35 <MarkS> ...i would rather have what we have now and add some abstract roles
14:57:23 <MarkS> JC: i'm talking about not doing the 1:1 mapping in a separate document so that its not included in this point release.  eventually it will make it back into the main document.
14:57:41 <MarkS> ...some can be generic, like div which can also be used in SVG
14:58:21 <MarkS> RS: we should refer to the core spec, ARIA 1.1 then define mappings that we're not willing to define in the ARIA implementation guide
15:01:08 <mattking> q?
15:01:15 <mattking> q+
15:01:16 <MarkS> CS: works better if you maintain a firm production timeline and if a feature is not ready, it gets put on the next train
15:01:50 <MarkS> ...and there will be a next train
15:01:50 <MarkS> ack jon
15:01:50 <MarkS> JG: who is going to work on this?
15:01:50 <MarkS> ...collaboration?
15:01:57 <MarkS> MC: we need a strong well structured guide.
15:02:21 <MarkS> JN: I know I can find people to work on focused topic, like Drawing
15:02:44 <MarkS> JS: are these optional for implementers?
15:03:04 <ShaneM> q+ to talk about optionality
15:03:08 <MarkS> ... what does an implementer have to support?
15:04:06 <MarkS> MC: the only difference is that we publish these as separate documents.
15:04:14 <MarkS> JC: they become rec track when folded back in.
15:05:06 <MarkS> MC: another solution is we can define conformance classes, eBook readers, etc.
15:05:46 <jcraig> q+ to mention that, if the drawing roles aren't useful outside svg, what's the problem with namespacing (svg:* like epub:*)
15:05:49 <MarkS> JS: if they stay separate its easier to say what you support as an implementer
15:08:31 <MarkS> JG: will there be cross collaboration between ePub aria people and SVG aria people?
15:08:58 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
15:09:00 <MarkS> ack Da
15:09:11 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack David_MacD_Lenovo
15:09:33 <MarkS> DM: I can see jon's point about how some modules don't mesh well with how others might want to use it in theirs
15:09:47 <MarkS> ...is there some sort of shared approach, database approach that can solve that?
15:10:01 <MarkS> MC: in W3C speak we have something called profiles, subsets of a spec
15:10:20 <MarkS> CS: perceived as less than full compliance though.
15:10:48 <MarkS> a?
15:10:50 <MarkS> q?
15:11:15 <David_MacD_Lenovo> ack D
15:11:50 <MarkS> RS: all epub browsers are built on webkit, blink or trident.  Whatever we put on the web, they get.
15:12:38 <MarkS> s/a?//
15:14:03 <MarkS> ack matt
15:14:41 <MarkS> MK: two ?'s Talked about Drawing module earlier, not SVG module.  In practice is each module going to be associated with a particular host language?
15:14:45 <MarkS> no
15:15:30 <MarkS> JC: 1:1 mapping for HTML: i don't even mean one role per element.  one role for each element.  some can be shared.
15:15:49 <MarkS> ...less additional roles than there are elements
15:16:09 <MarkS> MK: that was my concern, wondering if that problem would proliferate based on this solution.
15:16:25 <MarkS> ... role that says this element carries zero a11y semantics
15:16:46 <MarkS> JC: we have presentation and that is similar to null/zero role
15:17:32 <MarkS> MK: If you have a module that doesn't have a host language...  any examples?
15:17:55 <MarkS> CS: host language access and module access.  HTML would include graphics, document roles, UI roles, etc.
15:18:07 <MarkS> MK: canvas too.
15:18:47 <jcraig> ISSUE: Generic container roles for things like div/span, possible a "none" role. Need to avoid confusion with "presentation" role. (This issue may be a duplicate.)
15:18:48 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-638 - Generic container roles for things like div/span, possible a "none" role. need to avoid confusion with "presentation" role. (this issue may be a duplicate.).  Please complete additional details at <https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/638/edit>.
15:18:50 <bgaraventa1979> to be clear role=presentation removes the tag but keeps the text in the accessibility tree
15:18:55 <MarkS> CS: HTML is a good example of a general purpose language
15:19:05 <MarkS> MK: so we wouldn't call what we have now an HTML module
15:19:06 <MarkS> correct
15:19:25 <clown> right bgaraventa1979, it ignores the element role, but keeps the content.
15:19:29 <jcraig> q?
15:19:35 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
15:19:43 <mattking> q-
15:19:48 <ShaneM> ack s
15:19:48 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to talk about optionality
15:21:07 <MarkS> SM: think we need to be super careful. if we are going through the trouble of producing an ARIA spec for something, we would want everyone to support it. It needs to be supported in the browser.
15:21:26 <jcraig> ack me
15:21:26 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to mention that, if the drawing roles aren't useful outside svg, what's the problem with namespacing (svg:* like epub:*)
15:21:50 <MarkS> ack jc
15:22:12 <cyns> q+
15:23:01 <MarkS> JC: even within the HTML docs, canvas element's fallback content for instance, if authors do fill the sub-dom they could still use the SVG namespace inside that.
15:23:29 <MarkS> ...SVG is the only markup based language
15:23:48 <MarkS> CS: don't want to have it limited to one host language
15:24:07 <MarkS> JC: lets just not call it accessibly graphics
15:31:10 <jcraig> don't want any stigma that comes with the term "accessibility"… some people will see that and think "these role are not useful outside the context of screen readers, but indexing charts/slides/etc would be great as machine-readable data for a number of reasons.
15:42:55 <mattking> please note telephone is muted
15:48:33 <mattking> OK, pls unmute phone in conference room.
15:48:36 <mattking> thanks
15:51:28 <MichaelC> scribe: MichaelC
15:51:57 <MichaelC> jc: ... large datasets
15:52:09 <MichaelC> jg: how will the sub areas coordinate through the main group?
15:52:28 <MichaelC> js: already interest from people working in specialties, who wouldn´t work in main
15:52:48 <MichaelC> jn: so when something is ready, it goes in, otherwise it doesn´t
15:53:02 <MichaelC> jc: when someone wants to propose a module, they should approach us
15:53:05 <MichaelC> rs: we need a process
15:53:35 <MichaelC> otherwise a lot of purely academic stuff could be done
15:53:45 <MichaelC> cs: there is some stuff that is pretty clearly needed
15:53:53 <MichaelC> and also have people who might focus on those
15:54:25 <MichaelC> rs: @@?
15:54:30 <MichaelC> jc: 2.0
15:55:31 <MichaelC> <musing/>
15:56:04 <MichaelC> js: so we´re ready on a set of modules?
15:56:15 <MichaelC> Core, Publishing, Graphics, Editing
15:57:04 <MichaelC> rs: platform owners need to work with these groups to ensure success
15:58:00 <MichaelC> jc: there was proposal to use ag pattern for ¨accessible graphics¨
15:58:18 <MichaelC> that in particular gets into confusions in the larger sphere about what ¨accessibility¨ means
15:59:01 <MichaelC> mc: why not use aria- prefix?
15:59:05 <MichaelC> jc: this is for roles
15:59:47 <MichaelC> mc: but we control the roles
15:59:55 <MichaelC> we would review module submissions for collisions
16:00:05 <MichaelC> cs: and if different groups need the same thing, just use the same role
16:00:42 <MichaelC> smc: and semantic accessibility is relevant
16:01:07 <MichaelC> jc: one reason I want to avoid the a11y term
16:01:18 <MichaelC> mk: would be good to have a single ontology
16:01:21 <MichaelC> cs: and avoid namespaces
16:02:48 <MichaelC> mc: nothing stopping modules from using patterns where sensical, just don´t impose
16:04:56 <MichaelC> mc: big dangling question is whether current features are part of core or separate modules
16:05:10 <MichaelC> cs: can have document structure, user interface, etc. modules
16:05:14 <MichaelC> which cover much of what we have
16:05:26 <MichaelC> rs: you want to break it up?
16:05:30 <MichaelC> mc: in 2.0, not 1.1
16:06:57 <MichaelC> cs: so core wouldn´t be something we use in implementation
16:07:27 <MichaelC> mc: yes
16:08:14 <MichaelC> rs: module builders need it
16:08:18 <MichaelC> cs: so it´s a TOC
16:08:47 <jcraig> like the CSS TOC http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/current-work.en.html
16:09:00 <MichaelC> mc: and the taxonomy
16:10:30 <jcraig> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/complete#roles_categorization
16:11:01 <MichaelC> jc: so the current roles?
16:11:16 <MichaelC> mc: the current abstract roles would be in the core
16:11:24 <MichaelC> the concrete roles would move to a module
16:11:36 <MichaelC> jc: we have document structure, landmark, and widget
16:11:44 <MichaelC> cs: that´s a way of breaking up the module
16:11:57 <jamesn> q+ to day that some are in the wrong place currently
16:13:17 <richardschwerdtfeger> k
16:13:32 <MichaelC> jc: I´ve done an alphabetized list
16:13:41 <MichaelC> cs, mc: still want that, it´s just not the organizing feature
16:14:00 <MichaelC> dmd: not all designers get these subtleties
16:14:06 <MichaelC> cs: they don´t need to
16:14:14 <MichaelC> mc: we can have views
16:14:23 <MichaelC> ack cyns
16:14:25 <MichaelC> ack j
16:14:25 <Zakim> jamesn, you wanted to day that some are in the wrong place currently
16:14:42 <MichaelC> jn: some of roles might move
16:14:52 <jcraig> agenda?
16:21:07 <MichaelC> jc: I hear that modules means separate documents. Don´t we want it all in a master?
16:21:10 <clown> q+ To announce that lunch will be ready 12:30pm.
16:21:13 <MichaelC> mc: not sure we´ve decided either way
16:21:22 <MichaelC> cs: would like flexibility to go either way
16:21:54 <clown> q?
16:23:20 <MichaelC> dmd: how to implement graphics?
16:23:35 <MichaelC> mc: applies to whatever technology
16:23:47 <MichaelC> cs: though alt on img normally ok
16:24:52 <MichaelC> mc: can only use ARIA if there´s structure to attach it to
16:25:04 <MichaelC> jc: WebGL doesn´t use markup but can attach responders
16:25:18 <MichaelC> mc: why is why I said ¨structure¨ not ¨markup¨
16:25:31 <MichaelC> cs: could use an imagemap to attach ARIA if useful
16:27:25 <MichaelC> RESOLUTION: Structure ARIA 2.0 as an abstract base (which would not itself be implemented) plus modules / categorizations which may or may not be in separate documents. Currently planned modules may include document structure, user interface, EPub, graphics, editing, data collections.
16:29:42 <MichaelC> mc: About document sets
16:29:55 <clown> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/wiki/Outline_Core_User_Agent_Implementation_Guide#Core_User_Agent_Implementation_Guide
16:30:01 <MichaelC> we don´t know what docs there would be
16:30:22 <MichaelC> but we could do user agent guides for content technologies like HTML, SVG, EPub, etc.
16:30:25 <MichaelC> rs: plus a base
16:30:30 <jcraig> Zakim, help?
16:30:30 <Zakim> Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot for more detailed help.
16:30:32 <Zakim> Some of the commands I know are:
16:30:32 <Zakim>  xxx is yyy       - establish yyy as the name of unknown party xxx
16:30:32 <Zakim>                     if yyy is 'me' or 'I', your nick is substituted
16:30:32 <Zakim>  xxx may be yyy   - establish yyy as possibly the name of unknown party xxx
16:30:32 <Zakim>  I am xxx         - establish your nick as the name of unknown party xxx
16:30:32 <Zakim>  xxx holds yyy [, zzz ...] - establish xxx as a group name and yyy, etc. as participants within that group
16:30:33 <Zakim>  xxx also holds yyy - add yyy to the list of participants in group xxx
16:30:33 <Zakim>  who's here?      - lists the participants on the phone
16:30:33 <Zakim>  who's muted?     - lists the participants who are muted
16:30:33 <Zakim>  mute xxx         - mutes party xxx (like pressing 61#)
16:30:33 <Zakim>  unmute xxx       - reverses the effect of "mute" and of 61#
16:30:34 <Zakim>  is xxx here?     - reports whether a party named like xxx is present
16:30:34 <Zakim>  list conferences - reports the active conferences
16:30:35 <Zakim>  this is xxx      - associates this channel with conference xxx
16:30:35 <Zakim>  excuse us        - disconnects from the irc channel
16:30:35 <Zakim> I last learned something new on $Date: 2013-03-03 19:18:47 $
16:30:42 <MichaelC> mc: ??? what does that cover?
16:30:52 <MichaelC> rs: base how ARIA semantics map to a DOM
16:31:31 <clown> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/wiki/Outline_Core_User_Agent_Implementation_Guide#Core_User_Agent_Implementation_Guide
16:33:31 <MichaelC> mc: so this is stuff that is not specific to a particular
16:34:50 <jcraig> agenda 9 = IndieUI's relationship to ARIA? [Rich]
16:35:02 <jcraig> agenda 9 = IndieUI's relationship to ARIA [Rich]
16:35:56 <jcraig> agenda 12 = Cognitive Issues [Lisa]
16:36:48 <MichaelC> think much of the current UAIG can be core, but think role and property mappings is not base
16:37:01 <MichaelC> rs: but some of that is used across host languages, don´t want to duplicate
16:37:07 <MichaelC> mc: but it´s inherently not base
16:37:25 <MichaelC> we can address duplication, by edit once, publish multiple structure if needed
16:37:30 <jcraig> drop item 10
16:37:39 <MichaelC> duplication might be desirable because HTML and SVG implementers will be different people probably
16:38:51 <jcraig> q+ to say that this modularization discussion may have covered both the modularization and extensibility agenda items
16:39:54 <MichaelC> rs: but there´s so much that is duplicated
16:40:04 <MichaelC> <big realization some of us are talking 2.0 and some 1.1>
16:40:18 <MichaelC> ack c
16:40:20 <MichaelC> ac j
16:40:23 <MichaelC> ack jos
16:40:23 <Zakim> Joseph_Scheuhammer, you wanted to announce that lunch will be ready 12:30pm.
16:41:28 <MichaelC> -- brain reboot break --
16:42:06 <jcraig> agenda 3 = Making key events work automatically on focusable elements matching certain roles (e.g. button, link, checkbox), that have click event handlers (or possibly by HTML5 Commands) [jcraig]
16:43:24 <jcraig> q?
16:47:45 <MichaelC> <continuing on a 1.1 thread>
16:47:56 <janina_> janina_ has joined #aria
16:48:16 <janina_> q?
16:48:23 <janina_> q?
16:49:46 <MichaelC> js: we´ve been talking 2.0 because of future planning
16:49:53 <MichaelC> but have immediate work to do on 1.1
16:50:02 <MichaelC> how much of 2.0 do we need to implement now?
16:51:58 <MichaelC> mc: so, I´m ok with the proposal in the wiki
16:52:04 <MichaelC> except SVG component is 2.0
16:52:25 <MichaelC> rs: but need to start it
16:52:39 <jcraig> ack me
16:52:39 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to say that this modularization discussion may have covered both the modularization and extensibility agenda items
16:52:41 <MichaelC> mc: that´s fine, we´re working in parallel
16:52:46 <MichaelC> can slot where it goes later
16:52:53 <MichaelC> ok to proceed with this proposal for 1.1
16:52:55 <MichaelC> ack j
16:53:36 <clown> agenda?
16:54:55 <MichaelC> zakim, take up item 14
16:54:55 <Zakim> agendum 14. "dialog/alertdialog (from Bryan)" taken up [from jcraig]
16:55:28 <MichaelC> bg: what should be expected behaviour of dialog and alertdialog?
16:55:42 <MichaelC> right now, they are treated very similar by screen readers
16:55:42 <mattking> q+
16:55:58 <MichaelC> static content goes invisible
16:55:59 <jcraig> q+
16:56:14 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+
16:56:15 <MichaelC> not scalable
16:56:19 <MichaelC> ack ma
16:57:43 <MichaelC> mk: spec currently says dialog is an application
16:57:51 <clown> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/roles#dialog
16:57:56 <MichaelC> therefore some AT go into application mode
16:58:54 <MichaelC> should treat dialog as isolated portion of document
16:59:05 <MichaelC> and not have dialog role dictate how AT handles it
16:59:10 <jcraig> q+ to discuss the document vs application scenario, and that any static contents in a dialog not referenced by aria-labelledby or aria-describedby
16:59:18 <janina_> q?
16:59:59 <jcraig> q+ to mention html:*@inert
17:00:02 <MichaelC> a couple AT do
17:00:10 <jcraig> ack me
17:00:10 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to discuss the document vs application scenario, and that any static contents in a dialog not referenced by aria-labelledby or aria-describedby and to mention
17:00:13 <Zakim> ... html:*@inert
17:00:30 <jamesn> q+ to ask if this isn't simply a screen reader bug?
17:00:42 <MichaelC> jc: we´re not the ones telling AT to do this
17:00:48 <jamesn> ack me
17:00:48 <Zakim> jamesn, you wanted to ask if this isn't simply a screen reader bug?
17:00:50 <MichaelC> they decided to switch into application mode on dialogs
17:00:57 <MichaelC> whether or not you provide application
17:01:13 <clown> q+ to point out that the APG does advise the switch to "application" mode for dialogs.
17:01:23 <MichaelC> mk: but the spec is confusing
17:01:34 <MichaelC> anyway, one has stopped
17:02:02 <MichaelC> jc: have seen in e.g., terms of service documents
17:02:11 <MichaelC> that have a scroll region with the legalese
17:02:29 <MichaelC> a page can have multiple application and document regions
17:03:02 <MichaelC> so the dialog can have static text referenced by aria-describedby or aria-labelledby
17:03:22 <MichaelC> or have content in a documention region and AT switches out of application mode
17:03:31 <MichaelC> bg: that works, but developers don´t know how to do that
17:03:50 <MichaelC> jc: we can make that easier
17:04:17 <MichaelC> HTML 5 dialog API has inert property on dialog
17:04:42 <MichaelC> if it´s modal, graying out stuff behind it which you can see but not interact
17:04:55 <MichaelC> that pulls all the other stuff out of the a11y tree also
17:05:16 <MichaelC> so long term, want to implement dialogs so you don´t get to content outside of the modal reason
17:05:23 <MichaelC> rs: have to extend @@
17:05:42 <MichaelC> cs: something in Web page can´t affect what´s outside browser
17:05:52 <janina_> q?
17:07:02 <MichaelC> jc: that´s not yet implemented though, right now have to use @aria-hidden
17:07:20 <MichaelC> mk: right now don´t need to use application anywhere, even in modal application
17:07:39 <MichaelC> jc: but there´s more problems than AT behaviour
17:07:39 <MichaelC> that inert will solve
17:07:50 <MichaelC> e.g., keyboard interaction
17:08:00 <MichaelC> mk: we tell authors to keep focus in dialog
17:08:07 <MichaelC> jc: that´s a huge pain without breaking other stuff
17:08:53 <MichaelC> bg: @@
17:09:07 <MichaelC> jc: virtual buffer
17:09:42 <MichaelC> mk: issues are that AT treat like application and don´t limit view
17:09:59 <MichaelC> bg: @@
17:10:08 <MichaelC> rs: so virtual cursor allows arrow out of dialog
17:10:12 <MichaelC> bg: yes
17:10:19 <MichaelC> js: that´s a bug
17:10:27 <MichaelC> rs: will follow up
17:10:57 <jcraig> q+ to mention aria-modal attr for dialogs
17:11:02 <jcraig> ack r
17:11:38 <MichaelC> mk: there are words in the text that leads to these implementation problems
17:11:58 <David_MacD_Lenovo> A dialog is an application window that is designed to interrupt the current processing of an application in order to prompt the user to enter information or require a response.
17:12:24 <MichaelC> action: king to propose edit to dialog role to clarify issue that leads to bad implementation
17:12:24 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1346 - Propose edit to dialog role to clarify issue that leads to bad implementation [on Matthew King - due 2014-01-31].
17:12:48 <MichaelC> rs: alertdialog?
17:12:55 <MichaelC> bg: @@
17:12:59 <jcraig> ack jo
17:12:59 <Zakim> Joseph_Scheuhammer, you wanted to point out that the APG does advise the switch to "application" mode for dialogs.
17:13:08 <clown>  When using dialog, all static text must be associated with widgets, groups or panes using the aria-labelledby and aria-describedby properties, otherwise it will not be read by the screen reader when the user navigates to the related widget or group.
17:13:09 <janina_> q?
17:13:31 <MichaelC> clown: Authoring Practices says all text in dialog must be associated with a widget
17:13:50 <MichaelC> action-1346: look at APG as well
17:13:50 <trackbot> Notes added to action-1346 Propose edit to dialog role to clarify issue that leads to bad implementation.
17:14:03 <clown> mattking:  http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/Overview.html#kbd_layout_impact
17:14:18 <MichaelC> action-1346: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/Overview.html#kbd_layout_impact
17:14:18 <trackbot> Notes added to action-1346 Propose edit to dialog role to clarify issue that leads to bad implementation.
17:14:49 <jcraig> ack me
17:14:49 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to mention aria-modal attr for dialogs
17:14:54 <MichaelC> mk: the best practices are maybe not necessary anyways
17:15:12 <MichaelC> jc: thinks there is an error in assuming all dialogs are modal
17:15:18 <David_MacD_Lenovo> q+
17:15:34 <janina_> q?
17:15:42 <MichaelC> non-modal dialogs, focus moves there, but you can move the focus out of it
17:16:16 <MichaelC> maybe we need an aria-modal property
17:16:52 <MichaelC> mk: in one AT you can stop interacting with dialog, pops you back out
17:17:21 <MichaelC> even in a modal context, want to be able to go back and forth
17:18:07 <MichaelC> jc: think HTML inert will handle keyboard stuff
17:18:10 <MichaelC> out of scope for AriA
17:18:36 <MichaelC> the context issue is not spec issue, though we could tweak support materials
17:18:57 <MichaelC> only spec issue is not distinguish modal and non-modal
17:19:21 <MichaelC> ack d
17:19:29 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+
17:19:46 <MichaelC> ack r
17:20:14 <MichaelC> rs: @@
17:20:41 <jcraig> action: jcraig to add an attribute for differentiating modal vs non-modal dialogs/menus/etc. (possibly aria-modal)
17:20:41 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1347 - Add an attribute for differentiating modal vs non-modal dialogs/menus/etc. (possibly aria-modal) [on James Craig - due 2014-01-31].
17:20:56 <MichaelC> bg: a script library implementation @@
17:21:20 <MichaelC> rs: one of our collaborators should get that fixed
17:21:33 <jcraig> action-1347: could recommend here that UAs or ATs automatically move context to modal elements
17:21:33 <trackbot> Notes added to action-1347 Add an attribute for differentiating modal vs non-modal dialogs/menus/etc. (possibly aria-modal).
17:21:48 <jcraig> agenda?
17:21:49 <MichaelC> jn: is that a transitory problem related just to current AT bug?
17:22:20 <janina_> q?
17:22:27 <MichaelC> bg: @@
17:22:52 <MichaelC> rs: there were lots of examples in APG
17:23:14 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:23:23 <MichaelC> zakim, close this item
17:23:23 <Zakim> agendum 14 closed
17:23:24 <Zakim> I see 12 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:23:24 <Zakim> 1. Scrubbing ARIA 1.1 Issues and Actions https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/17 [from MichaelC]
17:23:41 <MichaelC> topic: Dangling issues
17:23:50 <MichaelC> jc: found a bunch of issues without products assigned
17:24:00 <MichaelC> put a bunch of them on 2.0
17:24:13 <MichaelC> some I think could apply to 1.1
17:24:42 <MichaelC> so we´ll need to pick those up when we return to issue scrubbing
17:47:55 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aria
18:22:45 <davidb> Note to all, just a heads up that we need to move into a meeting room called Finch at 4pm due to a conflict.
18:23:08 <davidb> Also, regrettably, I'll be a bit later than planned (unavoidable)
18:29:16 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aria
18:30:46 <janina_> zakim, who's on the phone?
18:30:46 <Zakim> On the phone I see Matt_King, PF_FtF
18:30:47 <Zakim> PF_FtF has Shane_McCarron, Jon_Gunderson, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Janina_Sajka, Bryan_Garaventa, Alexander_Surkov, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Joanie_Diggs, James_Nurthen, Mark_Sadecki,
18:30:47 <Zakim> ... James_Craig, Michael_Cooper, Cynthia_Shelly, David_MacDonald
18:31:30 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #aria
18:31:35 <ShaneM> ScribeNick: ShaneM
18:32:14 <clown> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/17
18:32:25 <ShaneM> zakim, next item
18:32:25 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Scrubbing ARIA 1.1 Issues and Actions https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/17" taken up [from MichaelC]
18:32:43 <jnurthen> jnurthen has joined #aria
18:33:14 <ShaneM> issue-427?
18:33:14 <trackbot> issue-427 -- Need a way for application to find out what role has been applied to or computed for an element -- open
18:33:14 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/427
18:34:10 <ShaneM> JC: It would be convenient for a lot of reasons.  If you have something like a UL in HTML, it gets a default role of list.  But this is not discoverable from JS.
18:34:30 <clown> <div role="foo checkbox">...
18:34:58 <clown> <div role="switch checkbox">...
18:35:08 <ShaneM> ... no way for authors to know which one is applied when the engine is making a choice.
18:35:27 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+
18:35:36 <ShaneM> ... proposal is for a readonly attribute on the DOM element that could be used to ask what the current role of an element is.
18:35:57 <jnurthen> q+
18:36:11 <ShaneM> ... thinks we may be able to get it into 1.1
18:36:51 <ShaneM> RS: In order to do this would we need to interact with whoever owns the DOM?
18:37:11 <ShaneM> JC: We can add a partial spec.  But the group in charge could object.
18:37:26 <ShaneM> RS: I think this is needed, but don't know if we get away with it.
18:37:51 <ShaneM> JC: We can put it in and see if it gets objected to.  We definintely need it for 2.0, but earlier would be much better.
18:38:00 <ShaneM> JN: Does this include implicit roles?
18:38:06 <janina_> q?
18:38:11 <janina_> ack r
18:38:27 <janina_> ack j
18:38:29 <ShaneM> JC: yes.  So we would need to clarify what the default role is in all cases.  There should not be any ambiguity.
18:38:38 <clown> q+ to note we need test case(s).
18:38:43 <ShaneM> ... this is the ARIA normalized role, not some internal role.
18:38:58 <jnurthen> ack me
18:39:02 <ShaneM> RS: We defined a processing model for 1.0.  Is it possible that model could change in 2?
18:39:05 <MarkS> -> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ac-members/2013JulSep/0049.html Decision to move DOM4 to HTML WG
18:39:44 <David_MacD_Lenovo__> David_MacD_Lenovo__ has joined #aria
18:40:37 <ShaneM> JC: as far as I know role is the only attribute where it is an ordered token list.  We can't change that.
18:41:11 <ShaneM> SM: There are other attributes where the order matters, but there is no DOM support for it directly.
18:41:37 <cyns> cyns has joined #aria
18:41:44 <cyns> q?
18:41:48 <cyns> q+
18:41:50 <ShaneM> RS: I am only a little concerned that something might change down the road.  And you would want the whole list.  Or the list of relevant roles.
18:42:24 <ShaneM> JC: If that happens we could add another interface.  Or this could return an ARRAY instead of a STRING.
18:43:19 <ShaneM> JC: In the current version there is one definitive role.  I don't think we need to be able to return a list today.
18:44:21 <ShaneM> RS: But we could just address it today and for now it would always return a single element list.  The first element in the list could be the computed role.
18:44:39 <ShaneM> JC: Remember we are just in bug scrubbing mode now.  We can get to the find points later.
18:44:50 <ShaneM> s/find points/fine points/
18:45:53 <janina_> q?
18:46:09 <ShaneM> JC: Would firefox implement support for something like this?
18:46:34 <ShaneM> AS: Why would this be exposed outside of the A11Y layer?
18:46:59 <ShaneM> JC: Because a search engine might need more information to impute semantics about content (e.g., slides in a presentation)
18:47:39 <ShaneM> CS: Why would anyone need to get access to this?
18:48:14 <ShaneM> JC: use cases include discovering whether the inherited role is what you expect.  Validation.  Testing.
18:48:37 <ShaneM> CS: It seems unlikely that we would implement this.  I don't understand what the actual value is to end users.
18:49:33 <ShaneM> JC: This could help provide for A11Y inspection in the web development context.
18:49:43 <jongunderson> q+
18:49:45 <janina_> q?
18:49:46 <clown> ack me
18:49:46 <Zakim> Joseph_Scheuhammer, you wanted to note we need test case(s).
18:49:55 <ShaneM> JC: Authors are not getting this right today.
18:50:30 <ShaneM> MK: We need something like this for computedName too.
18:50:36 <ShaneM> JC: computedLabel would be good too.
18:51:11 <ShaneM> ... would need to be careful here.  Screen reader users may hear something different than what the computedLabel is.
18:51:57 <ShaneM> ... but it would allow us, within the browser at least, to see if stuff is closer to correct.
18:52:07 <ShaneM> CS: This would lend a false sense of security.
18:52:19 <ShaneM> JC: No - it tells them more information than they have today.
18:52:54 <ShaneM> MK: This would be very helpful for developers.
18:53:35 <ShaneM> CS: I think developers should be testing at the screen reader level.
18:53:48 <ShaneM> JC: But they do not.  They don't even really test across platforms heavily.
18:54:09 <ShaneM> JC: Let me repeat what David said - it is way too hard to make an accessible web application.
18:54:14 <joanie> q+
18:54:17 <ShaneM> CS: It gives them a false positive.
18:54:29 <ShaneM> JC: No - it is not false, but it is not complete.
18:55:21 <ShaneM> MK: Telling people that they should test at the screen reader level is sort of silly.
18:56:11 <janina_> q?
18:56:18 <ShaneM> JS: We need to decide whether to do this or not, and when.
18:56:37 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
18:56:42 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+
18:56:49 <ShaneM> JN: We do this for our developers, but we do it at the A11Y layer.  We want to do it at both layers.
18:57:56 <clown> q?
18:58:00 <ShaneM> (discussion - but more of the same)
18:58:26 <ShaneM> ack cyns
18:58:27 <cyns> ack me
18:58:50 <ShaneM> JG: I think it is a great extension.  We have computed stuff and helps make inspection tools more complete.
18:58:57 <ShaneM> ack jongunderson
18:59:02 <janina_> ack j
18:59:21 <jcraig> q+ to say I hear all but one person saying this will be useful
18:59:28 <ShaneM> Joanie: Would the extension say that it is a "ARIA Role Button" or is it the "ATK Button"?
18:59:34 <ShaneM> JC: The ARIA Role Button
18:59:47 <ShaneM> joanie: Is there a way to make the underlying item available?
19:00:23 <joanie> ack joanie
19:00:28 <ShaneM> JC: maybe.  but it might not be as useful.  We are looking for the applied ARIA role because it should be the same on every platform.
19:00:31 <janina_> ack r
19:00:57 <bgaraventa1979> q+
19:01:13 <ShaneM> RS: When authors test they are looking at content a11y APIs, not platform APIs.  They run on their pages with automation tools such as Selenium.
19:01:19 <cyns> q+
19:01:30 <ShaneM> ... today we cannot tell if the computed names and computed roles are right.
19:02:01 <ShaneM> ... If the computed item is wrong then that would be good to know.
19:02:22 <mattking> q?
19:02:36 <mattking> can we move to next issue?
19:02:51 <ShaneM> joanie: This is neat.  This is a double edged sword though.  ATs can implement whatever APIs are needed.  But if there are older browsers involved then the data might be inaccurate.
19:03:43 <jcraig> ack me
19:03:43 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to say I hear all but one person saying this will be useful
19:03:54 <ShaneM> JC Note that when there is a new item we are always going to recommend that roles are user such that they 1.1 role can be fallen back to.
19:04:13 <janina_> ack b
19:04:14 <ShaneM> JC: Reminder that we should be scrubbing not specifying.  Can we move on?
19:04:31 <ShaneM> Brian: Would this include default role?
19:05:03 <janina_> ack c
19:05:06 <ShaneM> JC: Yes.  It would absolutely use default roles AND flag invalid roles.
19:05:32 <ShaneM> CS: In additional to my concerns it seems big.  Hard to specify and hard to implement.
19:05:48 <ShaneM> ... because ARIA does not currently specify any JS interfaces.
19:06:07 <ShaneM> JC: We can always specify that it is at risk.
19:06:14 <janina_> q?
19:06:16 <ShaneM> Maybe it should be in a separate "module"
19:06:38 <ShaneM> JC: Could be in a module.  I have lots of things like this in my list of suggestions for 2.0.
19:07:03 <janina_> q?
19:07:04 <ShaneM> CS: If we implemented patterns (actions) then we would need JS stuff anyway.
19:08:52 <ShaneM> David: Space delimited.  Fall back.  Method would show exactly computed role is being sent to the accessibility layer from the browser for a given element.  Is that right?
19:09:01 <ShaneM> JC: Explaination of the concept with visual aids.
19:10:32 <janina_> q?
19:11:11 <ShaneM> ...  you need to be an expert in order to write ARIA that is anything beyond simple today.  This would help people who are trying to do things that are complex be more likely to do them correctly.
19:12:17 <ShaneM> CS: How does Safari figure this out now?
19:12:21 <ShaneM> JC: It is all in webcore
19:13:22 <ShaneM> CS: How do you know that the computed role that is being reported is right?
19:14:01 <ShaneM> JC: We are doing a reverse lookup from the internal table of roles to the platform roles
19:15:21 <ShaneM> JC: Most web developers don't use the native tools for platforms when testing.
19:15:34 <clown> q?
19:15:37 <ShaneM> CS: It feels like this is only half way, and that half is not giving accurate information.
19:16:45 <ShaneM> JC: Who feels this would be useful?  (nearly everyone)
19:17:50 <ShaneM> JC: Would firefox be interested in supporting this?
19:17:55 <janina_> q?
19:18:05 <ShaneM> Alex: Maybe if it were not in the DOM tree.
19:18:28 <ShaneM> JC: But this is intended to be a readonly DOM attribute.
19:18:38 <janina_> q?
19:19:02 <ShaneM> MK: Lots of things could be useful here - not just computedName and computedRole
19:19:02 <jcraig> ISSUE-427: Also computedLabel()
19:19:03 <trackbot> Notes added to ISSUE-427 Need a way for application to find out what role has been applied to or computed for an element.
19:19:46 <ShaneM> issue-517?
19:19:46 <trackbot> issue-517 -- #aria-haspopup has normative-like statement in values table. Should probably have RFC prose regarding author SHOULD manage focus and use aria-owns on any non-descendant popup. True value currently means the menu MUST be an OWNED element. -- open
19:19:47 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/517
19:20:53 <ShaneM> JC: This is currently ambiguous.  Its a simple edit.
19:21:16 <jcraig> action: jcraig to patch issue-517
19:21:17 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1348 - Patch issue-517 [on James Craig - due 2014-01-31].
19:21:23 <jcraig> jcraig has left #aria
19:22:21 <ShaneM> issue-561?
19:22:21 <trackbot> issue-561 -- We need @aria-placeholder as backup for @placeholder in custom fields. -- open
19:22:21 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/561
19:23:03 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #aria
19:23:07 <ShaneM> CS: If HTML has this we should too.
19:23:22 <ShaneM> JN: Where does it map into the name computation?
19:23:27 <jcraig> action: jcraig to patch ISSUE-561: We need @aria-placeholder as backup for @placeholder in custom fields.
19:23:27 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1349 - Patch issue-561: we need @aria-placeholder as backup for @placeholder in custom fields. [on James Craig - due 2014-01-31].
19:23:42 <ShaneM> RS: The HTML5 spec indicates how this is computed already.
19:23:57 <ShaneM> issue-565?
19:23:57 <trackbot> issue-565 -- Consider making aria-leve, aria-posinset, and aria-setsize global attributes -- open
19:23:57 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/565
19:24:39 <ShaneM> RS: I think this could be on more, but not on everything.
19:24:43 <ShaneM> MK: Could it be 2.0?
19:24:55 <ShaneM> RS: well, it should be looked.
19:25:09 <ShaneM> JC: Can we close this and then do things individually as we move around?
19:25:40 <ShaneM> JN: There are other issues that are more specific?
19:25:50 <ShaneM> RS: Give me an action to look and make a specific proposal.
19:26:31 <ShaneM> ACTION: richardschwerdtfeger to make specific proposals for whether aria-level, aria-posinset, and aria-setsize might be needed
19:26:31 <trackbot> Error finding 'richardschwerdtfeger'. You can review and register nicknames at <https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/users>.
19:26:35 <jcraig> ACTION: Rich to propose specific edits or close ISSUE-565: Consider making aria-leve, aria-posinset, and aria-setsize global attributes
19:26:35 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1350 - Propose specific edits or close issue-565: consider making aria-leve, aria-posinset, and aria-setsize global attributes [on Richard Schwerdtfeger - due 2014-01-31].
19:30:22 <clown> action-1347?
19:30:22 <trackbot> action-1347 -- James Craig to Add an attribute for differentiating modal vs non-modal dialogs/menus/etc. (possibly aria-modal) -- due 2014-01-31 -- OPEN
19:30:22 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1347
19:30:37 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
19:30:38 <clown> q?
19:31:01 <ShaneM> issue-569?
19:31:01 <trackbot> issue-569 -- Introduce an ARIA attribute to indicate a column is sorted -- open
19:31:01 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/569
19:32:03 <ShaneM> RS: If multiple columns are sortable - how can you tell which column is actually sorted.
19:33:41 <ShaneM> JC: There can be multiple columns sorted too.
19:33:51 <ShaneM> RS: Do we want to have a 'active' sort?
19:34:03 <ShaneM> JC: It should be the sort order.  primary, secondary, tertiary.
19:35:05 <ShaneM> MK: There is a fair amount to talk about here.  Do we really want to take 1.1 time on this?
19:35:19 <ShaneM> JN: Would it make more sense to expose this on the cell than on the column header?
19:35:33 <ShaneM> CS: I think we want to think about grids holisitically.
19:35:44 <ShaneM> ... If we do something now and then do something later that would be worse.
19:35:52 <ShaneM> Punt to 2.0
19:36:02 <ShaneM> issue-574?
19:36:02 <trackbot> issue-574 -- Add required state of aria-selected to role option, and implicit value aria-selected='false' -- open
19:36:02 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/574
19:36:11 <ShaneM> Is a straight edit.
19:36:16 <jcraig> action: jcraig to patch ISSUE-574: Add required state of aria-selected to role option, and implicit value aria-selected='false'
19:36:17 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1351 - Patch issue-574: add required state of aria-selected to role option, and implicit value aria-selected='false' [on James Craig - due 2014-01-31].
19:37:53 <jcraig> action: jcraig to patch ISSUE-576: Add aria-posinset, and aria-setsize to tab role
19:37:54 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1352 - Patch issue-576: add aria-posinset, and aria-setsize to tab role [on James Craig - due 2014-01-31].
19:38:13 <jcraig> action-1352
19:38:13 <trackbot> action-1352 -- James Craig to Patch issue-576: add aria-posinset, and aria-setsize to tab role -- due 2014-01-31 -- OPEN
19:38:13 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1352
19:38:43 <ShaneM> issue-580?
19:38:44 <trackbot> issue-580 -- Consider changing rowgroup superclass to structure (from group) to prevent inheritance of other supported attrs in ARIA 1.1. -- open
19:38:44 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/580
19:39:25 <David_MacD_Lenovo> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/#tablist
19:39:54 <clown> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/roles#tablist
19:40:39 <jcraig> action: cooper to fix generated URL: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/#tablist
19:40:39 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1353 - Fix generated url: http://www.w3.org/wai/pf/aria/#tablist [on Michael Cooper - due 2014-01-31].
19:41:06 <jcraig> ACTION-1353: in #aria-descendant
19:41:06 <trackbot> Notes added to ACTION-1353 Fix generated url: http://www.w3.org/wai/pf/aria/#tablist.
19:42:32 <clown> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/roles#group
19:42:57 <ShaneM> punt to table / grid discussion for 2.0
19:44:35 <ShaneM> CS: This might be a platform interoperability issue.
19:44:56 <ShaneM> JC: Remember that we did this organization on purpose.
19:45:02 <ShaneM> CS: rowgroup and colgroup are important
19:45:18 <David_MacD_Lenovo> @ Michael ... many of the roles links are not working
19:45:21 <jcraig> action: jcraig to patch ISSUE-580: Consider changing rowgroup superclass to structure (from group) to prevent inheritance of other supported attrs in ARIA 1.1.
19:45:21 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1354 - Patch issue-580: consider changing rowgroup superclass to structure (from group) to prevent inheritance of other supported attrs in aria 1.1. [on James Craig - due 2014-01-31].
19:45:26 <ShaneM> RS: We can do this in 1.1 - it is simple.
19:45:29 <jcraig> action-1354
19:45:29 <trackbot> action-1354 -- James Craig to Patch issue-580: consider changing rowgroup superclass to structure (from group) to prevent inheritance of other supported attrs in aria 1.1. -- due 2014-01-31 -- OPEN
19:45:29 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1354
19:45:49 <ShaneM> issue-588?
19:45:49 <trackbot> issue-588 -- Clarify rowheader and columnheader selection (editorial) -- open
19:45:49 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/588
19:46:28 <clown> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/roles#rowheader
19:47:14 <ShaneM> JC: Request for the group.  If something is really editorial, just create an action on JC rather than an ISSUE.
19:47:29 <ShaneM> MK: I have a question though - is this really editorial?
19:48:54 <clown> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/roles#columnheader
19:49:20 <ShaneM> JN: There could be a use case where you only want to select a header instead of the whole row.
19:50:31 <ShaneM> MK: If we are talking about how it propagates then isn't that a UIAG issue?
19:50:42 <clown> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation/#mapping_events_selection
19:51:33 <ShaneM> JN: If the author wants them to be selected the author should mark them as such.
19:52:52 <ShaneM> RS: The AT should not have to be going back up to the document to see what is selected.
19:53:22 <ShaneM> MK: If the application provides a way to selected every cell, then it will set aria-selected on every cell.  Then the AT would just know.
19:53:34 <ShaneM> RS: But then we don't tell the authors to set those flags.
19:53:44 <ShaneM> MK: Oh - then maybe this is for the authoring practices.
19:55:46 <ShaneM> JC: this is an authoring practice.
19:56:32 <ShaneM> RS: how they render it visually may not mean they automatically use aria-selected.
19:57:15 <janina_> q?
19:58:26 <ShaneM> MK: Note that this is not necessarily a table thing - it is just any time you perform an action where selecting many elements you need to set selected attribute on all the things that get selected.
19:59:00 <ShaneM> (visual aids by JC)
20:00:29 <MichaelC> close action-1353
20:00:29 <trackbot> Closed action-1353.
20:00:55 <jcraig> action: rich to propose specific edit for ISSUE-588: Clarify rowheader and columnheader selection
20:00:55 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1355 - Propose specific edit for issue-588: clarify rowheader and columnheader selection [on Richard Schwerdtfeger - due 2014-01-31].
20:01:06 <jcraig> ACTION-1355
20:01:07 <trackbot> ACTION-1355 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Propose specific edit for issue-588: clarify rowheader and columnheader selection -- due 2014-01-31 -- OPEN
20:01:07 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1355
20:01:10 <ShaneM> MK: We should just give Rich an action to write some text and suggest where it goes.
20:01:38 <ShaneM> RS: This would be about contextual selected.
20:01:51 <ShaneM> David: This could be a technique too.
20:02:50 <ShaneM> ACTION 1355: Possible to be a WCAG Technique, in the authoring guide, in the HTML5 binding document.
20:02:50 <trackbot> Error finding '1355'. You can review and register nicknames at <https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/users>.
20:03:06 <ShaneM> ACTION-1355: Possible to be a WCAG Technique, in the authoring guide, in the HTML5 binding document.
20:03:07 <trackbot> Notes added to ACTION-1355 Propose specific edit for issue-588: clarify rowheader and columnheader selection.
20:03:58 <jcraig> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1355
20:04:12 <ShaneM> issue-593?
20:04:12 <trackbot> issue-593 -- Reflect the fact that browsers are now exposing child content for things like sliders, separators, scrollbars (childrenarepresentational) -- open
20:04:12 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/593
20:05:13 <David_MacD_Lenovo> I will file new issue using aria in html 5: if selecting any piece content causes selection to more than that element then add aria selected to all the other selected items
20:06:51 <ShaneM> demonstration by JC of video and how shadowDOM works
20:09:29 <ShaneM> The group understands the issue, and wants to punt to 2.0
20:10:14 <jcraig> agenda?
20:10:31 <ShaneM> zakim, take up item 3
20:10:31 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Making key events work automatically on focusable elements matching certain roles (e.g. button, link, checkbox), that have click event handlers (or possibly by HTML5
20:10:34 <Zakim> ... Commands) [jcraig]" taken up
20:10:42 <davidb> davidb has joined #aria
20:11:26 <clown> When the user triggers an element that is only focusable because of its tabindex attribute in a manner other than clicking it, such as by pressing Enter, and the element has no defined activation behavior, fire a click event
20:11:40 <ShaneM> JC: there was a bit punted from 1.0.  If you added a role of button and tabbed to it then pressing return would activate the button.   It was in the UIAG but not in a way that was really concrete.
20:11:42 <clown> The above is a quote from the UAIG
20:12:54 <ShaneM> ... all I am proposing is that when an element matching certain roles (that have activation) has a click event handler AND it is focusable, they keyboard event that would trigger a click event on a native control would trigger a click event on this control.
20:12:54 <janina_> q?
20:13:04 <ShaneM> MK: How would the author know this?
20:13:21 <ShaneM> JC: They don't need to know.
20:13:31 <ShaneM> MK: What if they had done their own keyboard handlers?
20:13:37 <ShaneM> JC: Then that would override.
20:14:08 <ShaneM> RS: Note that this would be clearly specifying browser behavior.  We have steered away from those because it is way too hard to reach agreement.
20:14:24 <ShaneM> CS: Historically it has been hard to reach agreement on things like this.
20:15:25 <ShaneM> ... authors should not need to go out of their way to make keyboard events to work in the A11Y context.
20:16:22 <ShaneM> CS: The developer puts onclick and not onkeypress.  If you add role='button' it should just work and it does not right now.
20:16:34 <ShaneM> JN: We would need a list of roles to which this would apply.
20:16:44 <bgaraventa1979> for grids, aria-selected is already documented for rows, not just cellswhat happens in the case of toolbar buttons? one tab stop?
20:16:55 <ShaneM> MK:  Interesting point.  anchors get this now.  why don't aria buttons get them now.
20:18:23 <ShaneM> CS: The current behavior is broken.
20:18:44 <ShaneM> JN: Why can't we require tabindex=0 too.
20:19:33 <ShaneM> DB: key events bubble right?
20:19:36 <ShaneM> JC: yes.
20:19:54 <ShaneM> RS: can we limit it to a couple of roles in 1.1 and see how it goes?
20:20:35 <ShaneM> CS: Two different issues.... is having role="button" on something focusable turn on click mapping?  Second, is having role="button" on something that is NOT focusable change its behavior so that it becomes focusable?
20:23:46 <ShaneM> DB: Would it be acceptable to just specify it independent of ARIA?
20:24:14 <ShaneM> JC: tricky.  But I like where you are going.  What about a click handler on a superior element like body?
20:24:56 <ShaneM> JC: I am hoping for platform specific behavior for the particular role.
20:25:31 <ShaneM> DM: How would it get focus?
20:25:45 <ShaneM> CS: We are requring tabindex (in 1.1 at least)
20:26:59 <ShaneM> CS: This could have a huge impact on the A11Y of many applications.
20:27:09 <ShaneM> DM: This would be a huge help to developers.
20:27:49 <ShaneM> DB: I would like to run the general suggestion by some other people next week.
20:29:15 <ShaneM> ACTION: davidb to Chat about the general case solution of mapping onclick to keypress in certain circumstances with appropriate people and get back to the working group
20:29:15 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1356 - Chat about the general case solution of mapping onclick to keypress in certain circumstances with appropriate people and get back to the working group [on David Bolter - due 2014-01-31].
20:29:38 <ShaneM> ACTION: cyns to Chat about the general case solution of mapping onclick to keypress in certain circumstances with appropriate people and get back to the working group
20:29:38 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1357 - Chat about the general case solution of mapping onclick to keypress in certain circumstances with appropriate people and get back to the working group [on Cynthia Shelly - due 2014-01-31].
20:29:44 <MichaelC> issue: Making key events work automatically on focusable elements matching certain roles (e.g. button, link, checkbox), that have click event handlers
20:29:44 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-639 - Making key events work automatically on focusable elements matching certain roles (e.g. button, link, checkbox), that have click event handlers.  Please complete additional details at <https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/639/edit>.
20:30:05 <clown> When the user triggers an element that is only focusable because of its tabindex attribute in a manner other than clicking it, such as by pressing Enter, and the element has no defined activation behavior, fire a click event
20:30:20 <clown> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-implementation/#keyboard-focus_tabindex
20:31:41 <jcraig> ISSUE-639: possibly (not not for certain) limited to specific roles: button, checkbox, columnheader, link, listitem, menuitem*, option, radio, tab,
20:31:41 <trackbot> Notes added to ISSUE-639 Making key events work automatically on focusable elements matching certain roles (e.g. button, link, checkbox), that have click event handlers.
20:33:58 <jcraig> action: jcraig to compare the ARIA and UAIG text alternative computation specs, because they somehow got out of sync
20:33:58 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1358 - Compare the aria and uaig text alternative computation specs, because they somehow got out of sync [on James Craig - due 2014-01-31].
20:45:40 <Zakim> -PF_FtF
20:46:12 <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
20:46:23 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aria
20:49:36 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #aria
20:50:29 <clown> clown has joined #aria
20:50:49 <jnurthen> jnurthen has joined #aria
20:53:05 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #aria
20:53:49 <Zakim> +??P1
20:54:18 <richardschwerdtfeger> zakim, P1 is Jason
20:54:18 <Zakim> sorry, richardschwerdtfeger, I do not recognize a party named 'P1'
20:54:32 <richardschwerdtfeger> zakim, ?P1 is Jason
20:54:32 <Zakim> sorry, richardschwerdtfeger, I do not recognize a party named '?P1'
20:54:48 <richardschwerdtfeger> zakim, ??P1 is Jason
20:54:48 <Zakim> +Jason; got it
20:55:07 <bgaraventa1979> bgaraventa1979 has joined #aria
20:55:15 <cyns> cyns has joined #aria
20:55:22 <jcraig> scribe: jcraig
20:55:39 <janina_> zakim, who's here?
20:55:39 <Zakim> On the phone I see Matt_King, [Mozilla], Jason
20:55:40 <Zakim> On IRC I see cyns, bgaraventa1979, jcraig, jnurthen, clown, richardschwerdtfeger, davidb, janina_, mattking, jongunderson, RRSAgent, MarkS, Zakim, asurkov, joanie, janina, trackbot
20:56:39 <clown> zakim, PF has Shane_McCarron, Jon_Gunderson, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Janina_Sajka, Bryan_Garaventa, Alexander_Surkov, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Joanie_Diggs, James_Nurthen, Mark_Sadecki, James_Craig, Michael_Cooper
20:56:39 <Zakim> sorry, clown, I do not recognize a party named 'PF'
20:56:55 <clown> zakim, Mozilla has Shane_McCarron, Jon_Gunderson, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Janina_Sajka, Bryan_Garaventa, Alexander_Surkov, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Joanie_Diggs, James_Nurthen, Mark_Sadecki, James_Craig, Michael_Cooper
20:56:55 <Zakim> +Shane_McCarron, Jon_Gunderson, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Janina_Sajka, Bryan_Garaventa, Alexander_Surkov, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Joanie_Diggs, James_Nurthen, Mark_Sadecki, James_Craig,
20:56:59 <Zakim> ... Michael_Cooper; got it
20:57:25 <clown> zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer
20:57:25 <Zakim> sorry, clown, I do not see a party named 'Joseph_Scheuhammer'
20:57:27 <MarkS> present+
20:58:24 <jcraig> topic: issue-601
20:58:27 <jcraig> issue-601
20:58:27 <trackbot> issue-601 -- Ensure that regions must have a label -- open
20:58:27 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/601
20:58:28 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #aria
20:59:06 <mgylling> mgylling has joined #aria
20:59:19 <jcraig> close issue-601
20:59:19 <trackbot> Closed issue-601.
20:59:23 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
20:59:39 <Zakim> +Markus
21:00:09 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://www.idpf.org/epub/vocab/structure/
21:00:10 <jcraig> Zakim, IPCaller is Matt_King
21:00:10 <Zakim> +Matt_King; got it
21:00:40 <jcraig> Zakim, who is on the call?
21:00:40 <Zakim> On the phone I see Matt_King, [Mozilla], Jason, Matt_King.a, Markus
21:00:41 <Zakim> [Mozilla] has Shane_McCarron, Jon_Gunderson, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Janina_Sajka, Bryan_Garaventa, Alexander_Surkov, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Joanie_Diggs, James_Nurthen, Mark_Sadecki,
21:00:41 <Zakim> ... James_Craig, Michael_Cooper
21:01:16 <jcraig> Mozilla has David_Bolter
21:01:25 <David_MacD_Lenovo> David_MacD_Lenovo has joined #aria
21:01:26 <MichaelC> MichaelC has joined #aria
21:01:29 <jcraig> Zakim, Mozilla has David_Bolter
21:01:29 <Zakim> +David_Bolter; got it
21:01:46 <jcraig> Zakim, Matt_King.a is Matt Garrish
21:01:46 <Zakim> I don't understand 'Matt_King.a is Matt Garrish', jcraig
21:01:53 <cyns> zakim, mozilla has me
21:01:53 <Zakim> +cyns; got it
21:02:00 <jcraig> Zakim, Matt_King.a is Matt_Garrish
21:02:01 <Zakim> +Matt_Garrish; got it
21:02:07 <clown> zakim, mozilla has me
21:02:07 <Zakim> +clown; got it
21:02:28 <jcraig> Topic: Janina summary is events so far
21:03:13 <jcraig> ARIA 1.1 or 2.0 will contained modularized/categorized for specific sub-sections for things like graphics (SVG) , book (EPUB), etc
21:03:20 <jcraig> TOPIC: EPUB
21:03:25 <mgarrish> mgarrish has joined #aria
21:03:40 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://www.idpf.org/epub/vocab/structure/
21:03:51 <clown> zakim, Mozilla has Shane_McCarron, Jon_Gunderson, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Janina_Sajka, Bryan_Garaventa, Alexander_Surkov, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Joanie_Diggs, James_Nurthen, Mark_Sadecki, James_Craig, Michael_Cooper
21:03:51 <Zakim> +Shane_McCarron, Jon_Gunderson, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Janina_Sajka, Bryan_Garaventa, Alexander_Surkov, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Joanie_Diggs, James_Nurthen, Mark_Sadecki, James_Craig,
21:03:54 <Zakim> ... Michael_Cooper; got it
21:04:21 <jcraig> MG: EPUB Vocabulary is the "bread and butter" structural semantics used to "subclass" HTML in EPUB
21:04:28 <jcraig> Not specific to AT
21:04:53 <jcraig> used in distributional content, machine-reading systems, etc.
21:05:48 <janina_> q?
21:05:49 <jcraig> example: decoarates links, notes, etc. so the epub viewer can hide them contextually
21:06:12 <jcraig> ex: term semantics can be auto linked to glossary. etc
21:06:34 <jcraig> some aspects inherited from DAISY, so it has some roots in accessibility
21:07:28 <jcraig> but the role usage is not exclusively consumed by AT
21:07:56 <jcraig> main adoption we've seen is form non-AT clients
21:08:45 <jnurthen>  q?
21:08:46 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+
21:08:54 <jcraig> Some of these roles benefit AT directly. Some are not terribly useful to AT, but other machine-reading systems.
21:09:11 <jcraig> JG: HTML uses deprecated? Explain?
21:09:31 <jcraig> MG: Squeezed SMIL into EPUB, but those can't be used in HTML.
21:10:23 <jnurthen> q?
21:11:27 <jcraig> RS: accessible roles can be used for both accessibility and other use cases, correct?
21:11:49 <jcraig> MG: yes, but it is limited significantly in HTML
21:12:32 <jcraig> "HTML Chairs told us not to use @role in HTML"
21:12:59 <jcraig> MG: HTML disallows @role in HTML.
21:13:14 <jcraig> SM: No it doesn't. Not anymore at least.
21:14:37 <jcraig> MG: IDPF vocabulary is growing. Perhaps to some of you, alarmingly so.
21:14:59 <janina_> q?
21:15:03 <janina_> ack r
21:15:11 <jcraig> sub-projects want to extend this vocab instead of using their own vocabulary
21:16:00 <jcraig> q+ to ask why you're defining roles like page-break
21:17:18 <jcraig> MG: Would this be extensible so that IDPF could manage it's own role usage for EPUB.
21:17:59 <jcraig> JC: discussed an epub role namespace earlier.
21:18:56 <janina_> q?
21:19:15 <jcraig> Some of the vocabulary are specific to "comics" (graphics layout books) for example rather than something needed in ARIA
21:20:00 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
21:20:13 <jcraig> Some things used audio vvs vibration api
21:20:16 <jcraig> ack me
21:20:16 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to ask why you're defining roles like page-break
21:22:32 <janina_> q?
21:22:35 <jcraig> MG: indicates a print page break, not a dynamic (e.g. CSS) page break
21:23:10 <jcraig> EPUB wants to migrate a way to migrate away from epub-namespaced attrs
21:25:42 <jcraig> Would extensibility happen soon enough for us to use ARIA in EPUB4, or should we continue to specify our own
21:26:05 <jcraig> q+ to mention fallback roles
21:26:10 <cyns> q+
21:26:24 <jcraig> SM: you can use epub-namespaced roles already
21:26:32 <jcraig> MG: but AT will not read those
21:26:39 <jcraig> MG: @@
21:26:46 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
21:26:46 <jcraig> ack me
21:26:47 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to mention fallback roles
21:27:11 <janina_> q?
21:27:47 <ShaneM> if ePub were to use scoped values in @role for things that are interesting to the ePub community that would be fine.  Anything that you think should inform AT would need to have values that are in the ARIA space in order to ensure support from rendering engines.
21:28:41 <mgylling> mgylling has joined #aria
21:28:42 <mattking> q+
21:28:44 <janina_> ack c
21:29:52 <jcraig> JC: Could use a fallback accessible role in addition to epub role, e.g. role="epub:foo section"
21:30:07 <jcraig> s/role="epub:foo section"/role="epub:qna section"/
21:31:02 <janina_> ack m
21:31:12 <ShaneM> CS: I don't like overloading the use of @role with things that are not AT related.
21:31:27 <jcraig> Cynthia: I am concerned about combining the namespaced roles with the aria roles
21:32:23 <janina_> q?
21:33:05 <mattking> q-
21:34:32 <mgylling> Error Line 5, Column 54: Discarding unrecognized token baz:bar from value of attribute role. Browsers ignore any token that is not a defined ARIA non-abstract role.
21:34:33 <mgylling> <img role="presentation baz:bar" src="foo.jpg" alt="">
21:34:39 <jcraig> MK: We should bring in the relevant epub roles into ARIA.
21:34:57 <janina_> q+
21:34:59 <mgylling> q+
21:35:00 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
21:35:06 <janina_> ack j
21:36:16 <jcraig> JC: Agreed, but epub could use the namespaced ones in the meantime, and indicate to user agent to support the epub: prefixed version. (e.g. future UA might recognized both aria "qna" and epub "epub:qna")
21:37:14 <janina_> ack m
21:37:38 <jcraig> JW: Noting/Concerned(?) that role is overloaded. If recognized for epub, allow fallback to ARIA in an AT context
21:38:28 <ShaneM> MG: The validator is complaining about non-ARIA roles.
21:38:30 <jcraig> SM: MG's previous validation concern was a bug in the validator.
21:38:31 <cyns> q+
21:38:50 <janina_> ack c
21:38:55 <ShaneM> ACTION: ShaneM to file a problem with the validator about role values that are scoped.
21:38:55 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1359 - File a problem with the validator about role values that are scoped. [on Shane McCarron - due 2014-01-31].
21:40:13 <davidb> (general discussion)
21:40:38 <ShaneM> JC: a11y will get the recognized ARIA role.  The ePub engine should get the ePub role value
21:40:44 <ShaneM> SM: Yes.
21:40:53 <janina_> q?
21:40:57 <jcraig> s/n AT context/n AT context. Namespacing may be a good waty to do that./
21:44:04 <jcraig> CS: my concern is that this complicated the UA internal processing, and I'm concerned that this will cause bugs in current or previous imoplementation. I want this to be additive, not a replacement. for example, bringing in this set of roles into ARIA with accessibility mappings for each.
21:44:05 <janina_> q?
21:44:40 <jcraig> s/my concern is that this complicated t/This may complicate t/
21:45:53 <jcraig> CS: We need additional harmonization, not less.
21:47:10 <janina_> q?
21:48:13 <jcraig> CS: I want one definitive list of roles, managed by the ARIA/PF group.
21:48:24 <janina_> q?
21:48:33 <ShaneM> q+ to talk about scoping of terms
21:49:32 <ShaneM> JC: anyone can do namespaced roles.  We are talking with ePub so they might be special.
21:50:34 <ShaneM> JC: For example: figure is in the ePub vocabulary today.  ePub could do epub:figure.  If we did figure as well then we would recommend that an implementation support both.
21:50:46 <janina_> q?
21:51:12 <jcraig> MC: I'm hearing vendor prefixes.
21:51:46 <ShaneM> CS: I am concerned about handing the mapping from external to aria to implementation roles.
21:51:52 <ShaneM> ack ShaneM
21:51:52 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to talk about scoping of terms
21:52:03 <richardschwerdtfeger> scribenick: Rich
21:52:41 <richardschwerdtfeger> Shane: It was never the intent of the xhtml role presentation that we would assume accessibility semantics about things that are not in our name space
21:52:57 <cyns> q+
21:53:01 <richardschwerdtfeger> Shane: I think it is unrealistic to assume this and that the browsers will input this and pass them on
21:53:44 <cyns> ack me
21:53:44 <janina_> ack c
21:53:47 <richardschwerdtfeger> cynthia: roles was an accessibility thing in msaa
21:54:02 <richardschwerdtfeger> Shane: Roll was conceived in xhtml2
21:54:14 <jcraig> JC: "role" in the general sense is not specific to accessibility
21:54:15 <ShaneM> s/Roll/Role/
21:54:20 <janina_> q?
21:54:32 <richardschwerdtfeger> Jason: It is interesting that this issue is being decided such that this is a vocabulary that anything can create
21:54:32 <ShaneM> CS: historically 'role' IS related to accessibility.
21:54:40 <jcraig> s/not specific to accessibility/not specific to accessibility or XHTML2/
21:54:55 <richardschwerdtfeger> Jason: If the accessibility community wants to claim complete control it is a bit late
21:55:07 <richardschwerdtfeger> janina: where do we want to end up
21:55:10 <mgylling> q+
21:55:11 <richardschwerdtfeger> janina?
21:55:21 <janina_> ack m
21:55:31 <richardschwerdtfeger> markus: I heard one thing that nobody disagrees with
21:55:50 <richardschwerdtfeger> markus: we should get together to migrate things from the ePub vocabulary that can be migrated
21:56:04 <richardschwerdtfeger> markus: this would be vanilla without name spaces
21:56:46 <richardschwerdtfeger> cynthia: In addition to that there should be an effort to harmonize with accessibility apis
21:57:05 <richardschwerdtfeger> rich: we agreed this should be part of our process for doing new semantics
21:57:05 <ShaneM> RESOLUTION: It makes sense to migrate many of the ePub vocabulary terms into the ARIA collection as first class citizens.
21:58:34 <richardschwerdtfeger> james: we need to get this list to see what is useful
21:59:15 <richardschwerdtfeger> rich: who will participate in this task force subgroup?
22:00:02 <richardschwerdtfeger> markus: I will put this out to the digital pub interest group
22:00:16 <richardschwerdtfeger> rich: Rich and Janina to participate
22:00:35 <janina_> q?
22:00:41 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: Markus, how formalized are these right now?
22:01:17 <richardschwerdtfeger> markus: we are taking feedback and we are trying to keep it agile
22:01:36 <richardschwerdtfeger> markus: if you want to do that either through me or the IDPF rep.
22:02:01 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: we could have a yes/no wiki page for this
22:03:04 <richardschwerdtfeger> markus: if this stuff breaks ATs it will not fly as this would impact tools.
22:04:25 <richardschwerdtfeger> rich: I can help with Freedom Scientific and some other ATs
22:04:49 <richardschwerdtfeger> cynthia: we put the whole role string and map it to an aria role
22:05:33 <richardschwerdtfeger> davidbolter: it is more like regressing but not breaking ATs
22:05:54 <richardschwerdtfeger> janina: this is not version 1 from DAISY
22:06:39 <richardschwerdtfeger> matt: we did see issues in Firefox when JAWS was treating log and something else on the table tag
22:07:21 <davidb> i didn't say that :)
22:07:21 <davidb> I hope I said it is *not* like regressing ATs.
22:07:27 <richardschwerdtfeger> matt: did we do multiple role testing
22:07:32 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: we did
22:08:05 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: we had at least two implementations of tests that used more than one value
22:08:38 <richardschwerdtfeger> Shane: I don't think they were aggressively tested. More work is required
22:08:56 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: we did not test for security issues
22:09:33 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: generally speaking, do you like what you heard today
22:09:45 <richardschwerdtfeger> markus: I like this first class citizen approach
22:10:02 <richardschwerdtfeger> makus: name space rolls is something we are looking at
22:10:19 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: the majority of these seem reasonable
22:10:35 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: we have listitem one word
22:11:01 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: we can resolve some of these where you can use some of what exists
22:11:35 <richardschwerdtfeger> cynthia: web document editors could use these
22:12:24 <richardschwerdtfeger> markus: we are working with the open annotation working group to define a common set of bookmarks, highlights, etc.
22:12:37 <richardschwerdtfeger> janina: you can publish these independent of the book itself.
22:12:53 <richardschwerdtfeger> markus: we can currently only do this within one vendors products.
22:13:41 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: it would be valuable to give an epub protocol link to an epub title book. You could link from an HTML web page to a location in someone's book
22:13:41 <janina_> q?
22:13:53 <jcraig> epub://bookID/locationId/
22:14:35 <richardschwerdtfeger> markus: we do have CSI for that.
22:14:44 <mgylling> s/CSI/CFI
22:14:59 <mgylling> http://www.idpf.org/epub/linking/cfi/epub-cfi.html
22:16:30 <Zakim> -Markus
22:16:33 <Zakim> -Matt_Garrish
22:16:36 <Zakim> -Jason
22:16:36 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, make log public
22:16:52 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, draft minutes
22:16:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/01/24-aria-minutes.html richardschwerdtfeger
22:17:49 <Zakim> -Matt_King
22:22:21 <richardschwerdtfeger> zakim, bye
22:22:21 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were Matt_King, Shane_McCarron, Jon_Gunderson, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Janina_Sajka, Bryan_Garaventa, Alexander_Surkov, Joseph_Scheuhammer,
22:22:21 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria
22:22:24 <Zakim> ... Joanie_Diggs, James_Nurthen, Mark_Sadecki, James_Craig, Michael_Cooper, Cynthia_Shelly, David_MacDonald, Jason, Markus, David_Bolter, cyns, Matt_Garrish, clown
22:22:27 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, make minutes
22:22:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/01/24-aria-minutes.html richardschwerdtfeger
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