13:47:17 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
13:47:17 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/01/23-aria-irc
13:47:19 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
13:47:19 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aria
13:47:21 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
13:47:21 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML A11Y)9:00AM scheduled to start in 13 minutes
13:47:22 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
13:47:22 <trackbot> Date: 23 January 2014
13:47:31 <jongunderson> jongunderson has joined #aria
13:47:52 <richardschwerdtfeger> meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Face to Face
13:48:29 <LisaSeeman_> LisaSeeman_ has joined #aria
13:49:06 <joanie> joanie has joined #aria
13:50:01 <jongunderson> jongunderson has joined #aria
13:50:10 <davidb> davidb has joined #aria
13:51:12 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #aria
13:51:30 <Mark> Mark has joined #aria
13:51:32 <asurkov> asurkov has joined #aria
13:54:57 <MichaelC> MichaelC has joined #aria
13:55:03 <MichaelC> zakim, this will be 92473
13:55:03 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, MichaelC
13:55:10 <MichaelC> zakim, list conferences
13:55:10 <Zakim> I see Team_Global(review)8:00AM active
13:55:11 <Zakim> also scheduled at this time are WAI_PFWG(HTML A11Y)9:00AM, Team_Comm()9:00AM
13:57:03 <MichaelC> zakim, list conferences
13:57:03 <Zakim> I see Team_Global(review)8:00AM active
13:57:04 <Zakim> also scheduled at this time are WAI_PFWG(HTML A11Y)9:00AM, Team_Comm()9:00AM
13:59:31 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/17
13:59:45 <richardschwerdtfeger> ARIA 1.1 Issues List: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/17
13:59:45 <MichaelC> zakim, list conferences
13:59:45 <Zakim> I see Team_Global(review)8:00AM active
13:59:46 <Zakim> also scheduled at this time are WAI_PFWG(HTML A11Y)9:00AM, Team_Comm()9:00AM
14:00:04 <richardschwerdtfeger> Current Agenda: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/meetings/2014-01-ftf#agenda
14:00:11 <MichaelC> zakim, list conferences
14:00:11 <Zakim> I see Team_Global(review)8:00AM active
14:00:12 <Zakim> also scheduled at this time are WAI_PFWG(HTML A11Y)9:00AM, Team_Comm()9:00AM
14:00:21 <MichaelC> zakim, this will be 92473
14:00:21 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, MichaelC
14:00:32 <MichaelC> zakim, room for 7 for 420 minutes?
14:00:33 <Zakim> ok, MichaelC; conference Team_(aria)14:00Z scheduled with code 92473 (WAIPF) for 420 minutes until 2100Z
14:01:20 <Zakim> Team_(aria)14:00Z has now started
14:01:28 <Zakim> + +1.541.678.aaaa
14:01:49 <Zakim> +??P1
14:02:09 <MichaelC> zakim, aaaa is Matt_King
14:02:11 <Zakim> +Matt_King; got it
14:02:32 <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
14:02:53 <MichaelC> zakim, ??P1 is Lisa_Seeman
14:02:53 <Zakim> +Lisa_Seeman; got it
14:03:00 <LisaSeeman_> LisaSeeman_ has left #aria
14:03:06 <davidb> Zakim, Mozilla is PF_F2F
14:03:06 <Zakim> +PF_F2F; got it
14:04:27 <MichaelC> zakim, Mozilla has Shane_McCarron, Bryan_Garaventa, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Jon_Gunderson, Janina_Sajka, Joanmarie_Diggs, Alexander_Surkov, David_Bolter, James_Craig, James_Nurthen, Mark_Sadecki, Cynthia_Shelly, Michael_Cooper
14:04:27 <Zakim> sorry, MichaelC, I do not recognize a party named 'Mozilla'
14:04:43 <MichaelC> zakim, PF_F2F has Shane_McCarron, Bryan_Garaventa, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Jon_Gunderson, Janina_Sajka, Joanmarie_Diggs, Alexander_Surkov, David_Bolter, James_Craig, James_Nurthen, Mark_Sadecki, Cynthia_Shelly, Michael_Cooper
14:04:43 <Zakim> +Shane_McCarron, Bryan_Garaventa, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Jon_Gunderson, Janina_Sajka, Joanmarie_Diggs, Alexander_Surkov, David_Bolter, James_Craig, James_Nurthen,
14:04:47 <Zakim> ... Mark_Sadecki, Cynthia_Shelly, Michael_Cooper; got it
14:13:00 <LisaSeeman_> LisaSeeman_ has joined #aria
14:17:58 <cyns> cyns has joined #aria
14:18:08 <davidb> davidb has changed the topic to: pastries
14:18:10 <bgaraventa1979> bgaraventa1979 has joined #aria
14:18:25 <MichaelC> agenda: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/meetings/2014-01-ftf#agenda
14:18:34 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #aria
14:18:40 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
14:18:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/01/23-aria-minutes.html MichaelC
14:18:48 <mattking> mattking has joined #aria
14:19:25 <MichaelC> chair: Janina_Sajka
14:23:02 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+
14:29:33 <ShaneM> ack richardschwerdtfeger
14:30:10 <LisaSeeman_> Q+
14:33:32 <LisaSeeman_>  Q+
14:33:45 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+
14:33:56 <ShaneM> ScribeNick: ShaneM
14:34:40 <ShaneM> richardschwerdtfeger: ePub... while it has structural semantics, it is not something that would be used in SVG.  If we had modules we would put that stuff in its own module.
14:35:19 <ShaneM> ePub readers are based upon browser technology today.  But there will be other technologies in the future.
14:36:09 <ShaneM> ... SVG has other issues.  drawing semantics for charts.  ARIA things there might fit into HTML5, but it is still independent of core ARIA.
14:36:23 <LisaSeeman_> ping
14:36:38 <ShaneM> ... We had an OWL-based taxonomy.
14:37:12 <ShaneM> cyns: we should not modularize too far.
14:37:24 <ShaneM> jamesn: we don't want to get so far we end up with XHTML 2.0 structure.
14:37:38 <jamesn> s/jamesn/jamesc/
14:37:49 <ShaneM> cyns: when there are separate schedules things can get too disparate.  I like how HTML5 does it where most modules are on the same cycle.
14:38:08 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
14:38:17 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack
14:38:20 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
14:38:26 <jamesn> ack Lisa
14:38:39 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack richardschwerdtfeger
14:39:03 <ShaneM> LisaSeeman_: Back at the beginning when we were making the OWL taxonomy there was one person doing it (me).  It worked because there was one person and it had integrity.
14:39:20 <MichaelC> q+ to say the taxonomy is very helpful for us to architect, but not meaningful to outsiders
14:39:28 <ShaneM> ... if there are modules it should still be one person who is responsible for the taxonomy because then it will stay internally consistent.
14:39:31 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+
14:39:41 <jcraig> q+ to clarify Janina's "ARIA outside web content" item, and to list my additional agenda items for ARIA 1.1 and 2.0
14:40:15 <ShaneM> ... We had originally planned to make it extensible and machine interpretable.
14:41:02 <ShaneM> ... If we did make it extensible now then the core taxonomy could be the building blocks for modules.
14:42:31 <ShaneM> ... ARIA 1.1 should be very simple and we should do it urgently.  Anything we can't do right away or is not *simple* we should do in 2.0
14:42:54 <ShaneM> MichaelC: I agree that 1.1 should be simple and urgent.
14:43:16 <ShaneM> ... as far as I have seen the taxonomy is useful for us in designing ARIA.  It is not use by user agents as far as I know.
14:43:20 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
14:44:03 <ShaneM> ... We should keep the taxonomy.  The spec refers to it often.  But it makes it harder for people to consume the ARIA spec.
14:44:18 <MichaelC> ack me
14:44:18 <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to say the taxonomy is very helpful for us to architect, but not meaningful to outsiders
14:44:24 <ShaneM> ... This is opposite of what LisaSeeman_ was suggesting.  I think there should be a different mechanism for extensibility.
14:44:26 <cyns> +1 ro MichaelC
14:44:45 <ShaneM> richardschwerdtfeger: I would like to continue to use it as a design tool.  It helped a lot.
14:45:07 <MichaelC> q+ to say we can design the taxonomy with hooks / stubs that support modules being attached
14:45:10 <MichaelC> ack r
14:45:10 <LisaSeeman_> ack me
14:45:12 <ShaneM> ... it helped when we were cleaning up the semantics in ARIA 1.0
14:45:14 <jcraig> ack me
14:45:14 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to clarify Janina's "ARIA outside web content" item, and to list my additional agenda items for ARIA 1.1 and 2.0
14:45:15 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack me
14:45:16 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
14:45:57 <ShaneM> jcraig: When we talk about using ARIA outside, did Janina mean outside of browser?
14:46:03 <ShaneM> janina: yes - we might want to consider that.
14:46:11 <cyns> q+
14:46:57 <ShaneM> jcraig: I don't agree.  We should call it something else if we are doing that.  ARIA is about markup enhancement and it reflects an API for the platform.
14:47:08 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
14:47:13 <ShaneM> ... if we try to force people to use ARIA as the base API for the whole system, I think we would fail.
14:48:02 <ShaneM> janina: I was really talking about messaging.  There might be benefits to ATs if ARIA worked beyond the browser.  It is outside of our scope.
14:48:24 <ShaneM> ... I hear that ARIA is going to go away because it is fixing yesterdays broken stuff.  That's a bad message.
14:48:26 <MichaelC> q+ to ask about ARIA as the ¨Web AAPI interface¨
14:48:59 <ShaneM> jcraig: Yes.  ARIA is not going away.  HTML doesn't do half of what is needed.  ARIA does help retrofit HTML and bad implementations thereof.
14:49:17 <jamesn> q+ to say we need to  change this. In TF force work on WCAG aria techniques we keep on hearing - ARIA is a repair technique so we shouldn't have an ARIA technique
14:49:31 <LisaSeeman_> q+
14:50:52 <MichaelC> q+ to say let´s stay meta for a bit, consider specific features just for how they inform structuring the work; come back to the specifics later
14:50:58 <ShaneM> jcraig: Additional agenda items:  more roles and elements that currently cannot have roles.  Might be solved with a 'roledescription' attribute.
14:51:37 <ShaneM> ... keyboard support.  not necessarily all of it.  and certainly not in 1.1.
14:52:09 <ShaneM> ... indieUI is trying to solve part of the keyboard problem.
14:52:47 <ShaneM> ... example: role='button' on a div does not necessarily trigger keyboard access even if an AT might treat it as a button.
14:53:02 <ShaneM> cyns: IE does this in some cases
14:53:13 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+
14:53:35 <ShaneM> jcraig: And because IE does it some people think that you don't need to handle keypress events on such a div
14:54:01 <davidb> if we are discussing aria prescribing browser driven keyboard ux i'd like to add some caution
14:54:16 <ShaneM> ... ARIA 2.0: if we do modules, then a roles module would be nice.  it would be nice if liveregions were addressed.  the rich text editing API.
14:54:36 <Mark> agrees with davidb on the keyboard issue
14:55:22 <ShaneM> ... An API based approach for RTE would be good for custom views.  Would be nice if there were ways to specify that there is a JS object that handles A11Y for a region.
14:55:53 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
14:56:06 <MichaelC> ack me
14:56:06 <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to say we can design the taxonomy with hooks / stubs that support modules being attached and to ask about ARIA as the ¨Web AAPI interface¨ and to say let´s
14:56:09 <Zakim> ... stay meta for a bit, consider specific features just for how they inform structuring the work; come back to the specifics later
14:56:18 <LisaSeeman_> I can not hear well
14:56:29 <jcraig> My list so far:
14:56:33 <jcraig> # ARIA F2F
14:56:34 <jcraig> ## ARIA 1.1
14:56:36 <jcraig> - More roles (including generics) for 1:1 mappings to host langs
14:56:37 <jcraig> 	- SVG: chart, line, relationship
14:56:39 <jcraig> 	-	HTML: para,
14:56:40 <jcraig> 	- EPUB: section
14:56:42 <jcraig> 	- Generic Elements: html:div, html:span, svg:g
14:56:43 <jcraig> 	- @aria-roledescription may solve some of this. E.g. EPUB chapter could be a "region" with a role description of "chapter"
14:56:45 <jcraig> - Keyboard Support
14:56:46 <jcraig> 	- HTML 5 Commands (Making keypress work automatically on divs)
14:56:48 <jcraig> 	- rest partially tied IndieUI
14:56:49 <jcraig> ## ARIA 2.0
14:56:51 <jcraig> - Module-based approach (like CSSWG)
14:56:52 <jcraig> - Fixing live regions
14:56:54 <jcraig> - RTE API
14:56:55 <jcraig> 	- focus proxy
14:56:56 <jcraig> 	- API-based approach for custom views
14:56:57 <jcraig> - IndieUI Events and Test Creation
14:57:03 <ShaneM> MichaelC: The ARIA taxonomy can be designed such that there are stubs that could be the basis for modules.
14:57:24 <ShaneM> ... before we get into 1.1 and 2.0 we need to address the high level issue of whether we should modularize or not.
14:58:06 <ShaneM> ...  and we need to address the question of whether ARIA is a 'patching technology'.  I think 1.1 is supposed to be a patch.
14:58:10 <mattking> q+
14:58:29 <ShaneM> ... should ARIA become the accessible layer of web applications?  do we need a mapping of every feature of every technology?
14:58:45 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
14:59:04 <ShaneM> ... This would be a major design decision for the web in general.  We need to make a conscious decision about this.
14:59:52 <ShaneM> cyns: Native Platform APIs.  There is not a complete overlap between ARIA and platform APIs today.
15:00:24 <ShaneM> ... jcraig, you mentioned a role description.  Microsoft has something like that with localizable control name.  jcraig says Apple does something similar.
15:01:13 <ShaneM> ... this is a good example of where there are platform APIs that could help drive what is in ARIA and help structure the implementation guide.
15:01:35 <ShaneM> richardschwerdtfeger: We should do something like roledescription for 1.1.  a "sub role".
15:01:40 <davidb> q+ to talk about web developers
15:02:12 <ShaneM> cyns: We already have something like it in UIA.  And it is an example of the class of things that might exist in platforms that we could push back into the ARIA layer.
15:04:05 <ShaneM> cyns: I understand that there are people who think ARIA is there to patch HTML.  I encourage people to use HTML when they can.  The relationship between ARIA and HTML is hard to explain to developers.
15:04:22 <ShaneM> ... If ARIA *was* a patching technology, it isn't any longer.
15:05:00 <ShaneM> jcraig: even the best rendering engine is behind where developers need it to be.  They need a way to make custom controls.
15:05:45 <ShaneM> cyns: Developers feel like they need complete control.  And we can't change that.
15:06:00 <jamesn> ack me
15:06:00 <Zakim> jamesn, you wanted to say we need to  change this. In TF force work on WCAG aria techniques we keep on hearing - ARIA is a repair technique so we shouldn't have an ARIA technique
15:07:08 <ShaneM> jamesn: One of the reasons we have to change this is that our guides say use HTML.  We say that ARIA is a patching technology.
15:07:12 <MichaelC> q+ to tie in earlier discussion of ARIA as patch or whole solution http://www.w3.org/2011/01/baking-aria
15:07:14 <ShaneM> ... we need a consistent message.
15:07:53 <ShaneM> cyns: We should still say that people should use standard controls.
15:08:00 <ShaneM> General agreement.
15:08:06 <Mark> q?
15:08:24 <ShaneM> MichaelC: We should make a formal decision about whether ARIA is a bridging technology or not.
15:08:58 <ShaneM> cyns: We should still say that basic controls are preferred.  When that fails ARIA is a solution.
15:09:01 <jcraig> q+ to bring us back to agenda planning
15:09:37 <ShaneM> richardschwerdtfeger: At IBM we see ARIA as the mainstream way of developing controls.  No one wants to use the native HTML5 stuff.
15:10:32 <ShaneM> cyns: Yes.
15:10:41 <jcraig> s/Apple does something similar/AX API has "AXRoleDescription"/
15:11:47 <ShaneM> (anecdotal evidence that native controls are unused)
15:12:39 <jcraig> ack me
15:12:39 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to bring us back to agenda planning
15:13:21 <jcraig> ack cy
15:13:24 <jcraig> ack l
15:14:09 <ShaneM> bgaraventa1979: It would be way too hard to get people to stop using ARIA as the main way of developing interfaces today.
15:14:33 <ShaneM> LisaSeeman_: ARIA 2 should help facilitate extensibility
15:14:36 <jcraig> AGENDA+ Decide whether ARIA.Next is more than a bridging technology MichaelC
15:14:42 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
15:14:47 <jcraig> AGENDA+ API normalization? What is the LCD or superset of the platform APIS? At least the necessary parts. Cyns
15:14:58 <jcraig> AGENDA+ Make 2.0 about extensibility. Lisa
15:15:09 <cyns> q+
15:15:25 <jcraig> AGENDA+ HTML 5 Commands (Making keypress work automatically on divs). jcraig
15:15:35 <MichaelC> q+ to say my personal opinion is extensibility in 2.0 might be good - just not sure if a RDF taxonomy will be the mechanism at the implementation layer
15:15:46 <ShaneM> ... where that means ensuring that ARIA like things could be used in extended XML schema and AT would magically just know how to handle those extensions because it is based upon the core taxonomy.
15:16:07 <jcraig> AGENDA+ ARIA 1.1 additional roles (and possibly something like @aria-roledescription?)
15:16:12 <ShaneM> q+ to discuss the folly of trying to make markup arbitrarily extensible
15:16:47 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
15:16:49 <MichaelC> q+ to talk timeline http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/project/
15:16:50 <jcraig> AGENDA+ Fixing Live regions (probably ARIA 2?)
15:16:55 <ShaneM> LisaSeeman_: I would prefer that we look into 2.0 for 1.1 division first because that may drive our discussion.
15:17:11 <LisaSeeman_> ack me
15:17:24 <jcraig> AGENDA+ RTE API and focus proxy (2.0)
15:17:24 <ShaneM> richardschwerdtfeger: First, lisa, if there are going to be extensions then we need a strategy for it.  Otherwise it will become an academic exercise.
15:17:41 <jcraig> AGENDA+ Module-based approach
15:18:10 <ShaneM> ... The name "indieUI" is not great.  Why are we not just calling it "ARIA Events"?
15:18:51 <ShaneM> jcraig: indieUI is not specific to ARIA.  This should be a separate agenda item.
15:18:53 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
15:18:57 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack me
15:19:00 <MichaelC> ack rich
15:19:00 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
15:19:09 <MichaelC> ack matt
15:19:31 <jcraig> AGENDA+ Rich: Is IndieUI part of ARIA? (James says no)
15:19:39 <jcraig> ack m
15:19:39 <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to tie in earlier discussion of ARIA as patch or whole solution http://www.w3.org/2011/01/baking-aria and to say my personal opinion is extensibility in 2.0
15:19:42 <Zakim> ... might be good - just not sure if a RDF taxonomy will be the mechanism at the implementation layer and to talk timeline http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/project/
15:19:43 <ShaneM> mattking: Two topics.  Discussion of patching/bridging vs. holistic.  And I am curious about how we are going to decide what is in 1.1.
15:20:47 <jamesn> q+ to say that matt's treeview and listview issues also tie into my keyboard issues....
15:21:02 <ShaneM> ... Issue 633 is about how roles are being misused.  We don't have a way to create lists that have their own selection model.  This is really common in applications and we don't have a way to specify them.
15:21:02 <jamesn> ISSUE-633?
15:21:02 <trackbot> ISSUE-633 -- listbox and tree may contain only static items; badly need interactive widgets that can contain interactive typed items -- raised
15:21:02 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/633
15:21:04 <MichaelC> q+ to  tie in earlier discussion of ARIA as patch or whole solution http://www.w3.org/2011/01/baking-aria and to say my personal opinion is extensibility in 2.0 might be good - just not sure if a RDF taxonomy will be the mechanism at the implementation layer and to talk timeline http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/project/
15:21:11 <ShaneM> jcraig: Why does list not work?
15:21:21 <jamesn> ack me
15:21:21 <Zakim> jamesn, you wanted to say that matt's treeview and listview issues also tie into my keyboard issues....
15:21:45 <ShaneM> mattking: because lists are static.  and listbox can only have static options inside of it.  You can't have a list of links, for example.
15:22:39 <ShaneM> ... for something like simple site navigation there is no way to do it with the current roles.
15:22:52 <jcraig> ISSUE-633?
15:22:52 <trackbot> ISSUE-633 -- listbox and tree may contain only static items; badly need interactive widgets that can contain interactive typed items -- raised
15:22:52 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/633
15:23:17 <jcraig> AGENDA+ ISSUE-633: listbox and tree may contain only static items; badly need interactive widgets that can contain interactive typed items (mattking)
15:23:29 <ShaneM> ... when can we get this on the agenda?  Some needs are 2013 needs.  Not 2015 needs.
15:25:16 <ShaneM> mattking: Is ARIA complete?  It seems like ARIA has always had semantics that overlap with core HTML.
15:25:35 <jcraig> AGENDA+ Scrubbing ARIA 1.1 Issues and Actions https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/17
15:25:42 <jcraig> q?
15:25:51 <mattking> q-
15:26:03 <jcraig> ack davidb
15:26:03 <MichaelC> ack david
15:26:03 <Zakim> davidb, you wanted to talk about web developers
15:26:59 <ShaneM> davidb: ARIA is way too complicated.  We need to make sure that web developers are thought of first.
15:27:09 <jcraig> +1 +1 +1
15:27:17 <cyns> +1
15:27:29 <ShaneM> ... we need to optimize for them so that they can succeed, even by accident.
15:29:11 <ShaneM> ... We have often tried to ensure that A11Y is baked in.  In the web space I want it to be HTML.  I don't want to have to tell people that they need to do something extra for A11Y for the easy things.
15:29:32 <ShaneM> ... Remember - KISS.  Keep It Simple, Stupid.
15:29:45 <jcraig> AGENDA+ How to make accessibility (including ARIA) more simple. davidb
15:30:29 <jongunderson> q+
15:30:45 <ShaneM> ... We need to be careful with names.  We don't need to cloud the namespace.
15:31:21 <ShaneM> cyns: This comes down to the discussion of whether ARIA is bridging technology or not?
15:32:06 <LisaSeeman_> Are we discussing this yet?
15:32:15 <LisaSeeman_> or are we setting the agenda?
15:32:32 <LisaSeeman_> Q+
15:32:41 <ShaneM> davidb: Do we want ARIA to start meddling with the core semantics?  A11Y should be accidental for the majority of the cases.
15:32:53 <ShaneM> jongunderson: the reason this worked in dojo is because we made it work.
15:33:32 <clown> s/jongunderson: the reason/joseph: the reason/
15:33:38 <jcraig> AGENDA+ Web Components and ShadowDOM
15:34:06 <jcraig> q?
15:34:20 <MichaelC> q+ to say in theory, if ARIA is a standalone solution, you should be able to create a custom technology markup language with meaningless element names and make it fully accessible with ARIA
15:34:48 <ShaneM> davidb: If ARIA becomes the driver then it needs a different name.
15:35:16 <ShaneM> cyns: MS and IE are way down the path of making ARIA core, but a bridge.
15:35:33 <Mark> q+
15:35:43 <ShaneM> davidb: Then ARIA should not be something where an aria attribute breaks the core behavior.
15:36:33 <ShaneM> cyns: we need to keep in mind that anything we do in ARIA should not break core functionality.
15:36:36 <jcraig> s/where an aria attribute/where adding an aria attribute/
15:37:16 <MichaelC> q+ to say perhaps host language bindings is a separate question from ARIA as a complete a11y tech
15:38:00 <cyns> ack me
15:39:47 <MichaelC> zakim, David_MacDonald has entered PF
15:39:47 <Zakim> +David_MacDonald; got it
15:40:44 <davidb> to be clear, I like the idea of there being a mechanism to do the keyboard ui for the developer I just still have concerns if that should be in the mental "aria-" namespace
15:50:59 <jongunderson> ScribeNick: jongunderson
15:55:37 <Mark> Mark has joined #aria
16:01:10 <jongunderson> David MacDonald introduces himself
16:02:04 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
16:02:14 <MichaelC> ack me
16:02:14 <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to tie in earlier discussion of ARIA as patch or whole solution http://www.w3.org/2011/01/baking-aria and to say my personal opinion is extensibility in 2.0
16:02:18 <Zakim> ... might be good - just not sure if a RDF taxonomy will be the mechanism at the implementation layer and to talk timeline http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/project/ and to say in theory,
16:02:18 <Zakim> ... if ARIA is a standalone solution, you should be able to create a custom technology markup language with meaningless element names and make it fully accessible with ARIA and to
16:02:18 <Zakim> ... say perhaps host language bindings is a separate question from ARIA as a complete a11y tech
16:03:12 <cyns> cyns has joined #aria
16:03:22 <jongunderson> MC: One of the things I wanted to tie in was weather ARIA is a patching technology or a standalone technology
16:03:41 <jongunderson> MC: We need to decide which direction we will go with ARIA at some point
16:03:59 <cyns> q+
16:04:34 <jongunderson> MC: ARIA 2.0 could be an extensible technology, not sure if the RDF taxonomy will be the technology for extensibility, even though it is useful for the design of ARIA
16:04:45 <jcraig> AGENDA+ Timelines for ARIA 1.1 and ARIA 2.0
16:04:52 <jongunderson> MC: Timeline has ARAI 1.1 in about a year
16:05:04 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+
16:05:06 <jongunderson> MC: HRML5 timeline has been extended
16:05:23 <jcraig> s/ARAI/ARIA/g
16:05:36 <jcraig> s/HRML/HTML/
16:05:39 <jongunderson> MC: If we want to meet the timeline we need to constrain ourselves to what is achievable
16:06:02 <jongunderson> MC: Extending timelines is a slippery slope and I would discourage extnsions
16:06:05 <jcraig> agenda?
16:06:31 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
16:06:40 <ShaneM> ack me
16:06:40 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to discuss the folly of trying to make markup arbitrarily extensible
16:07:50 <jongunderson> Shane: I think it is great to want to support ARIA extensible, the web is not extensible, I am Shane and I am an X xhtml author
16:08:07 <jongunderson> Shane: xhtml was a failure for extensions
16:08:45 <jongunderson> Shane: If EPub people have extensions that work for them ....
16:09:04 <jongunderson> Shane: I would rather us spend our time just making accessibility work
16:09:12 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
16:09:18 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack jongunderson
16:09:26 <jcraig> q+ to order the agenda items we've received so far
16:11:27 <MichaelC> q+ to say host language bindings can be a different question from featureset - don´t confound them
16:12:07 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack LisaSeeman
16:12:10 <jongunderson> JG: Can we have aria markup to support authors declaring WCAG 2.0 compliance
16:12:28 <jongunderson> LS: Link to UI....
16:12:32 <jcraig> AGENDA+ Validation tools (e.g. do authors' ARIA controls comply with WCAG?) jong
16:13:31 <jongunderson> LS: The disadvantage to the UI linking ..., W3C standardize what people are doing, ARIA looks at what new things are doing
16:13:41 <jongunderson> LS: These things come in spurts
16:13:59 <jcraig> drop item 4
16:14:12 <jongunderson> LS: As soon as we link it to the UI we loose that
16:14:27 <jongunderson> LS: That measn accessibility will be behind what people are doing
16:14:30 <jcraig> HTML 5 Commands (Making keypress work automatically on focusable elements with click events matching certain roles). jcraig [from jcraig]
16:14:42 <jongunderson> LS: People may get a get out jail card
16:14:44 <jcraig> AGENDA+ HTML 5 Commands (Making keypress work automatically on focusable elements with click events matching certain roles). jcraig [from jcraig]
16:15:41 <jongunderson> LS: There a huge cost to moving it, I suggest we do both, there is a type of role like an applied mode, it acts like a predefined widget
16:16:03 <cyns> q?
16:16:13 <jcraig> agenda?
16:16:15 <jongunderson> LS: It does mean that is is simpler, but we may lose ....
16:16:19 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
16:16:33 <jongunderson> LS: Having trouble with computer
16:16:38 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack Mark
16:16:54 <jcraig> q+ Mark
16:17:11 <jcraig> q- Mark
16:17:20 <jcraig> q later
16:17:29 <jcraig> q-
16:17:35 <jcraig> q+ to order agenda
16:17:40 <jongunderson> CS: I have an opposite view, accessibility is hard, there is also lots of testing on multipl plateforms
16:17:53 <David_MacD_Lenovo_> David_MacD_Lenovo_ has joined #aria
16:17:58 <jcraig> s/multiple platforms/
16:18:09 <jongunderson> CS: I think we should work on platform support, we need to make it easier
16:18:19 <jcraig> s/multipl plateforms/multiple platforms/
16:18:25 <jongunderson> CS: Our key goal is to make it simpler and easier
16:18:48 <jongunderson> SJ: Do we see extensibility in the next 3 years?
16:19:21 <jongunderson> SJ: If we are going to do extensibility should be on the agenda for the next 3 years
16:19:26 <mattking> q+
16:19:41 <jongunderson> JC: Extensibility means different things to different people
16:19:59 <jongunderson> CS: I see role description as a simple extension technique
16:20:01 <jcraig> ack cyns
16:20:29 <jongunderson> RS: It is hard to get browsers to get common implementation, but it is getting better
16:20:37 <jongunderson> LS: Can respond to CS?
16:21:14 <jongunderson> LS: I agree that it is too hard, I think we can do both, we can have prepackaged roles and extensibility
16:21:33 <jongunderson> LS: If we are doing HTML and you can add it a a tag...
16:22:17 <jongunderson> CS: I don't think we loose what we have done so far, we know there are some things missing, we need to tighten it up and make it easier to use
16:22:36 <jongunderson> JC: We are still in agenda planning
16:22:42 <jcraig> q?
16:22:46 <jcraig> ack r
16:22:47 <jongunderson> RS: I would like to get to the chase on this one
16:23:09 <jongunderson> RS: Is ARIA more than a bridging technology?
16:23:20 <jcraig> agenda?
16:23:23 <jongunderson> JC: Lets finish the que
16:23:29 <MichaelC> ack me
16:23:30 <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to say host language bindings can be a different question from featureset - don´t confound them
16:23:45 <jcraig> q- later
16:23:54 <jongunderson> MC: How does ARIA intersect with the host language
16:24:12 <jcraig> AGENDA+ host language binding
16:24:23 <jongunderson> MC: host language bindings should be a separate question form the ARIA feature set
16:24:34 <jongunderson> CS: I think we confounded them with ARAI 1.0
16:24:37 <jcraig> q?
16:24:39 <jongunderson> MC: Yes I think we did
16:24:44 <jcraig> ack mattk
16:24:45 <jamesn> agenda+ Keyboard handling within complex widgets with child components
16:25:04 <jongunderson> MK: I want to respect what JC, I would like to comment on LS
16:25:26 <jongunderson> MK: Keyboard actions to specific roles
16:25:32 <jongunderson> JC: It is on the agenda
16:25:33 <jcraig> q?
16:25:34 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
16:25:37 <jcraig> ack me
16:25:37 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to order agenda
16:25:38 <mattking> q-
16:25:48 <jcraig> agenda?
16:26:01 <jongunderson> JC: I am going to read the agenda items
16:26:18 <jongunderson> James Craig reads list.....
16:28:01 <MichaelC> agendum 2 = API harmonization? What is the LCD or superset of the platform APIS? At least the necessary parts. [Cyns]
16:28:08 <jcraig> drop item 8
16:29:08 <jcraig> drop item 11
16:29:32 <jcraig> AGENDA+ Scrubbing ARIA 1.1 Issues and Actions https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/17
16:29:40 <jcraig> drop item 10
16:30:28 <MichaelC> agendum 5 = ARIA 1.1 additional roles (and possibly something like @aria-roledescription?) e.g., html, svg, epub
16:30:31 <jcraig> AGENDA+ modularization
16:30:46 <jongunderson> LS: I want to add an agenda item
16:30:58 <jongunderson> LS: Discussion of criteria for items in 1.1
16:31:11 <jcraig> AGENDA+ Cognitive Issues
16:31:16 <jongunderson> LS: Should ARIA 2.0 should support cognitive
16:31:48 <richardschwerdtfeger> agenda?
16:31:50 <jongunderson> LS: Do we let the task force make recommendations for 2.0, how do we handle cognitive
16:34:02 <jcraig> drop item 15
16:36:14 <jcraig> AGENDA+ ARIA controls comply with WCAG? e.g. how/can we make custom rendering Video, Math, etc accessible via ARIA
16:37:29 <jongunderson> RS: HTML5 semantics have a video tag so we want
16:38:20 <jongunderson> JS: You can make assertions about accessibility
16:38:43 <jcraig> Red Leader: stay on target
16:38:56 <jongunderson> RS: There is a media controller in there...
16:38:58 <richardschwerdtfeger> agenda?
16:39:26 <jongunderson> JS: We should think about JG topic, but not today
16:39:45 <jongunderson> JC: Putting click events on button widgets
16:39:53 <jongunderson> JS: Is that on our scrub list
16:40:06 <jongunderson> JS: If it is on our scrub list we are on the way
16:40:15 <jongunderson> JC: I am not sure it is there
16:40:34 <jongunderson> RS: This is the API document mapping stuff
16:40:43 <jongunderson> JC: HTML5 ...
16:41:06 <jongunderson> MC: the bindings are rules on how ARIA can be used in native languages, strong and weak mappings
16:41:24 <jongunderson> MC: It is a separate from an ARIA feature
16:41:35 <jongunderson> J: Host language is good for me
16:41:51 <jongunderson> JC: The next item goes with Indie UI discussion
16:42:08 <jongunderson> RS: I do want to make sure we cover the implementation guides
16:42:42 <jongunderson> RS: We don't have an implementation guide to HTML 5, I used the current guide to make HTML 5 and SVG semantics
16:43:01 <jongunderson> JC: Clarification is part of MC host language and authoring
16:43:08 <jongunderson> RS: This is implementation guide
16:43:35 <Zakim> +??P2
16:43:47 <jongunderson> RS: For example in SVG spec, when do you map something to the accessibility API, a drawing object with no ALT should not be mapped
16:43:59 <jongunderson> RS: Named computation is different in SVG than HTML
16:44:22 <jongunderson> JS: It is the organization of the document moving forward
16:44:22 <LisaSeeman> LisaSeeman has joined #aria
16:44:36 <jongunderson> RS: I have a draft of this I would like to discuss
16:44:52 <jongunderson> JC: This is different than the modularization discussion?
16:45:37 <jongunderson> RS: It would be affected by modularization, it will be how we create sub groups
16:46:06 <jongunderson> MK: Is the question is documentation centered on modularization?
16:46:09 <jongunderson> RS: Yes
16:46:14 <jcraig> ??P2 is LisaSeeman
16:46:19 <jongunderson> JC: Let's discuss with modularization
16:46:28 <jongunderson> RS: Can we get going
16:46:46 <jongunderson> CS: Is there one we can finish before lunch?
16:46:59 <jongunderson> JC: Timelines (14 on agenda)
16:47:19 <jongunderson> JC: ARIA next more than emerging technologies
16:47:51 <Mark> Mark has joined #aria
16:48:31 <jongunderson> reordering the agenda items......
16:48:32 <MichaelC> agenda order 14, 1, 17, 5, 16
16:48:38 <MichaelC> agenda?
16:49:58 <jongunderson> JS: I am concerned with time for these items
16:50:17 <jongunderson> RS: We can combine some items
16:50:39 <jongunderson> MK: That was closely related to extensibility
16:51:08 <jongunderson> JC: Drop item #12
16:51:09 <MichaelC> drop item 12
16:51:48 <jongunderson> JS: There are 50 issues for scrubbing ARIA 1.1 issues
16:52:04 <jongunderson> s/JS/JC/
16:52:28 <jongunderson> RS: Would like to get the bridging item out of the way
16:52:32 <MichaelC> agenda order 14, 1, 17, 19, 5, 16, 18, 3
16:52:34 <MichaelC> agenda?
16:54:01 <jongunderson> JC: Is this a decent order?
16:54:06 <richardschwerdtfeger> agenda?
16:55:11 <jongunderson> RS: We also want to build test suites, we don't want to wait until the end
16:55:58 <jongunderson> JC: Should we limit discussion on items
16:56:18 <richardschwerdtfeger> zakum, next item
16:56:26 <richardschwerdtfeger> zakim, next item
16:56:26 <Zakim> agendum 14. "Timelines for ARIA 1.1 and ARIA 2.0" taken up [from jcraig]
16:57:04 <MichaelC> -> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/project/ Current draft timeline
16:57:14 <jongunderson> RS: HTML 5.1 last call is the end of 2016?
16:57:20 <jongunderson> JS: No
16:57:38 <jongunderson> RS: When is HTML 5.1 suppose to go to last call?
16:57:58 <jongunderson> RS: If they are like everybody else there will be a second last call
16:58:11 <jongunderson> JS: I don't think 5.1 will be like 5.0
16:58:37 <jongunderson> Mark: 2014 Q3
16:58:48 <jongunderson> RS: We are not going to make that date
16:58:48 <ShaneM> http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/html5-2014-plan.html
16:58:50 <Mark> -> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/ HTML5.1 Timeline
16:59:07 <jongunderson> RS: We have to have our last call at the end of the year
16:59:19 <jongunderson> RS: What was our original plan?
16:59:33 <jongunderson> MC: Q1 2015
16:59:55 <jongunderson> RS: We don't know what is in HTML 5.1 that will affect us?
17:00:02 <jongunderson> RS: What is there CR date?
17:00:17 <jongunderson> JS: Q1 2015
17:00:33 <jongunderson> JC: Assuming they go to last call about that date
17:01:00 <jongunderson> MC: There maybe being doing changes in last call
17:01:26 <jongunderson> JS: 2 year CR
17:01:54 <jongunderson> RS: If we build our test cases in parallel we can do a shorter CR
17:02:21 <jongunderson> MC: If our test cases are done and tested when we wrap up we can skip CR
17:02:43 <jongunderson> RS: We need to have things that they can link to that replicate their host native semantics
17:02:52 <jongunderson> MC: That would probably be good
17:03:24 <jongunderson> RS: They pointed to the ARIA spec, the only thing left is states, as long as they don't limit our states
17:03:36 <jongunderson> JC: What additional states are we thinking about
17:03:41 <jongunderson> RS: I am not sure
17:03:52 <jongunderson> MK: aria-active or aria-current
17:04:19 <jongunderson> RS: We need something for tables, like aria-colspan and aria-rowspan
17:04:52 <jongunderson> JC: That would put last call in Q2 2015
17:04:55 <jongunderson> RS: That would be OK
17:05:04 <jongunderson> JS: With a short or zero CR
17:05:17 <jongunderson> JC: I don't think it will be zero
17:05:25 <jongunderson> JS: We have the test hareness now
17:05:48 <jongunderson> MC: If we want a zero last call when we have all of our implementations
17:06:09 <jongunderson> MC: If we go to last call and do not have all our implementations it will harder
17:06:26 <jongunderson> JC: It means we have all our implementations at last call?
17:07:19 <jongunderson> MC: We can go to a last call with all our implementations, or we can issue a last call but not done, and kind of plan second last call
17:07:32 <jongunderson> RS: I have not seen a group not have a second last call
17:07:45 <jongunderson> MC: If we have all our implementations..
17:07:55 <jongunderson> CS: If people don't hink the spec is ready
17:08:12 <jongunderson> JC: The CSS and Web Apps group both reviewed...
17:08:46 <jongunderson> CS: I am thinking more about browser developer and web developers groups
17:08:56 <jongunderson> CS: I think test cases are good
17:09:21 <jongunderson> RS: We can probably get the browser manufactures going, but authors are a different story
17:09:49 <jongunderson> CS: In reality last call is we think we are done
17:09:56 <jongunderson> JS: There is time for a second last calll
17:10:23 <jongunderson> MC: DO we want to be in sync with HTML 5.1, do we wait for them to go to rec
17:10:35 <jongunderson> RS: I don't think we decide that now
17:10:42 <jcraig> q?
17:10:56 <jongunderson> CS: The HTML 5.1 has got there act together, they are cutting features
17:11:25 <jongunderson> MC: There is a lot of pressure to have accurate timelines
17:11:56 <jongunderson> MC: Defensible to wait until HTML 5.1 is wait
17:12:08 <jongunderson> RS: Q3 is reasonable
17:12:17 <jongunderson> MC: I am comfortable with that
17:12:30 <richardschwerdtfeger> agenda?
17:12:37 <richardschwerdtfeger> zakim, next item
17:12:40 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Decide whether ARIA.Next is more than a bridging technology MichaelC" taken up [from jcraig]
17:13:21 <jongunderson> RS: Does anyone disagree it is not a bridging technology?
17:13:36 <jongunderson> DB: Can you not use the work bridging
17:13:52 <jongunderson> RS: It is not waiting for host language semantics
17:14:09 <jongunderson> JC: AUthors want to create custom controls
17:14:21 <jongunderson> CS: Its purpose has evolved
17:14:38 <jcraig> q+ svg2
17:14:46 <jcraig> q- svg2
17:14:51 <jcraig> q+ to mention svg2
17:15:04 <jongunderson> CS: When you say it is a bridging technology it is waiting for something else, I don't believe that now
17:15:14 <David_MacD_Lenovo_> q+
17:15:16 <clown> q+ to point out cross-platform nature of aria.
17:15:27 <jongunderson> RS: ARIA now makes it possible to communicate accessibility information
17:15:36 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:15:46 <jongunderson> RS: The reality is that many authors will alsway make custom controls
17:15:51 <jcraig> q+ to mention missing HTML controls that are still missing, like data grids
17:15:59 <jcraig> ?
17:16:01 <jcraig> q?
17:16:11 <jongunderson> CS: We still want accessibility in native host languages, but developers will still go around the host lanagueg
17:16:30 <jcraig> ack me
17:16:30 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to mention svg2 and to mention missing HTML controls that are still missing, like data grids
17:16:32 <jongunderson> DB: I stumbled on bridge, there will always be a gap
17:16:35 <LisaSeeman> q+
17:17:12 <jongunderson> JC: It is not just HTML centric, it is used in SVG, SVG decided to use aria as their accessibility
17:17:26 <jongunderson> DB: There are some semantics in SVG
17:17:40 <jongunderson> JC: They are very incomplete semantics
17:18:01 <jongunderson> DB: It is too simple to say in SVG that there is no mappings without ARIA
17:18:14 <jongunderson> RS: There are performance issues
17:18:30 <jongunderson> RS: In webkit they said if you do this you get this
17:18:51 <jongunderson> JC: In HTML there are missing data grids
17:19:09 <jongunderson> JC: There will always be something else
17:19:22 <jcraig> q?
17:19:23 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:19:27 <jongunderson> JC: There maybe a grid in HTML, but never in SVG
17:19:44 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack David_MacD_Lenovo_
17:20:01 <cyns> q+
17:20:03 <jongunderson> David: I was working with a company who wanted to have a different look and feel
17:20:23 <jongunderson> JC: AT least with buttons you can do that
17:20:42 <jongunderson> David: They really wanted to do something different and it looked great
17:21:07 <jcraig> q+ to action someone to remove the "bridging tech" language
17:21:19 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:21:23 <jongunderson> CS: I think we wand CSS based controls that look different with graphical designers
17:21:48 <jamesn> q+
17:22:07 <jongunderson> JC: Maybe WAI needs to educate developers, what are the elements that can't be customized with CSS
17:22:08 <richardschwerdtfeger> Q?
17:22:23 <cyns> ack me
17:22:33 <jongunderson> CS: PF needs to work on some of these issues with CSS
17:22:35 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:22:35 <Zakim> Joseph_Scheuhammer, you wanted to point out cross-platform nature of aria.
17:23:28 <jongunderson> Joseph: A lot of accessibility APIs, there is one DOM spec, for accessibility there are many APIs
17:24:02 <jongunderson> Joseph: ARIA covers all these APIS, it is the accessibility API for the web
17:24:27 <jongunderson> CS: We are using them to build quasi desktop apps run through the browser
17:24:55 <jongunderson> Shane: ChromeOS is an example of web apps
17:25:11 <jongunderson> JS: Anyone speak against?
17:25:51 <MichaelC> q+
17:25:54 <jongunderson> DB: Back to ARIA being the accessibility API for the web, I agree with that, we still have the desktop
17:26:54 <jcraig> agenda?
17:27:14 <jongunderson> DB: I can expose an HTML button to an accessibility API, but ARIA button is not there...
17:27:59 <davidb> I meant ARIA is not there
17:28:18 <jongunderson> CS: If you are in the DOM the button element is different from the div with role=button
17:28:34 <jongunderson> DB: DO we want the DOM to make them look the same?
17:28:57 <jongunderson> DB: If there is an API standard, what is the role of this thing
17:29:07 <jongunderson> JS: We seem to be going that direction
17:29:31 <jongunderson> JC: This is why we need to have a 1:1 mapping for every host language semantic
17:29:59 <davidb> exactly james just said "getComputedRole" which captures the nuance here
17:30:07 <jongunderson> JC: For any element get its computed role, so we need that for every element, including elements like script elements
17:30:33 <jongunderson> JC: I would like to have a read only label attribute for a form control
17:30:53 <jongunderson> MK: If we are talking about making the ROLE mapping ....
17:31:19 <jongunderson> JC: There is a concept of reflective roles....., a little off topic
17:31:44 <jongunderson> JC: States can be returned from the DOM
17:31:53 <jongunderson> JS: I think we are at lunch
17:31:55 <jcraig> ack jcr
17:31:55 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to action someone to remove the "bridging tech" language
17:32:01 <jongunderson> JC: We need an action
17:32:21 <jongunderson> MC: I do want to speak pros and cons
17:32:34 <jongunderson> RS: I think we can remove the "bridging"....
17:32:54 <jongunderson> JS: I think we are also in consensus
17:33:17 <jongunderson> RS: Did you remove?
17:33:28 <jongunderson> MC: Maybe the action got moved to 1.1
17:33:50 <Zakim> -??P2
17:34:43 <Zakim> +??P2
17:35:15 <jcraig> no action in 1.1 either
17:35:16 <LisaSeeman> P2 is Lisa
17:36:16 <jcraig> ACTION: jamesn to track down references to ~"bridging technology" or other less-desirable language; action each editor to remove/rephrase.
17:36:16 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1328 - Track down references to ~"bridging technology" or other less-desirable language; action each editor to remove/rephrase. [on James Nurthen - due 2014-01-30].
18:27:12 <Zakim> -Matt_King
18:27:25 <Zakim> +Matt_King
18:29:18 <LisaSeeman> r u back?
18:29:40 <mattking> YES
18:30:10 <mattking> sounds like conf room still muted
18:30:33 <MichaelC> MichaelC has joined #aria
18:31:51 <mattking> Michael, do not forget the telephone is muted
18:32:23 <LisaSeeman> can u unumte
18:34:12 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #aria
18:34:37 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #aria
18:35:44 <jnurthen> jnurthen has joined #aria
18:36:18 <clown> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/introduction#co-evolution
18:36:47 <clown> ^ where the "bridging" wording is (the above url).
18:37:27 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aria
18:40:13 <richardschwerdtfeger> Current bridging statement in ARIA spec: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/introduction#co-evolution
18:41:18 <richardschwerdtfeger> public statement on bridging: http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/introduction#co-evolution
18:41:31 <mattking> +1 on 1.1
18:41:38 <MichaelC> q?
18:41:38 <clown> first sentence, secton clause of the above url.
18:41:47 <clown> s/secton/section/
18:43:10 <jongunderson> jongunderson has joined #aria
18:45:31 <jnurthen> q+
18:45:31 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
18:45:56 <jnurthen> +1
18:48:28 <cyns> cyns has joined #aria
18:48:33 <cyns> q+
18:49:17 <jcraig> ACTION: jcraig to clarify the "bridging" language in #co-evolution to make it clear that ARIA is not a stop-gap technology. It will always be relevant SVG, and it will remain relevant for HTML as long as web developers have *any* reason to not use the native control, including the use to retrofit existing sites or frameworks without completely gutting the implementation.
18:49:17 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1329 - Clarify the "bridging" language in #co-evolution to make it clear that aria is not a stop-gap technology. it will always be relevant svg, and it will remain relevant for html as long as web developers have *any* reason to not use the native control, including the use to retrofit existing sites or frameworks without completely gutting the implementation. [on James Craig - due 2014-01-30].
18:50:55 <LisaSeeman> lisa: a retrofited site can use aria even if you could do it in native syntax
18:51:04 <jnurthen> ack me
18:51:07 <jnurthen> ack jamesn
18:51:11 <jcraig> action-1329?
18:51:11 <trackbot> action-1329 -- James Craig to Clarify the "bridging" language in #co-evolution to make it clear that aria is not a stop-gap technology. it will always be relevant svg, and it will remain relevant for html as long as web developers have *any* reason to not use the native control, including the use to retrofit existing sites or frameworks without completely gutting the implementation. -- due 2014-01-30 -- OPEN
18:51:12 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1329
18:51:28 <LisaSeeman> lisa: also bad news when people do HTML hacks (like ofscreen text\0 instied of html
18:51:46 <LisaSeeman> Lisa: much better to do it in aria
18:52:35 <jcraig> agenda?
18:52:51 <jcraig> zakim, next item
18:52:51 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, jcraig
18:52:55 <jcraig> q?
18:53:04 <jcraig> ack lisa
18:53:10 <richardschwerdtfeger> Action: Cynthia meet EO to provide guidance on when and when not to use WAI-ARIA
18:53:10 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1330 - Meet eo to provide guidance on when and when not to use wai-aria [on Cynthia Shelly - due 2014-01-30].
18:54:25 <Mark> scribe: Mark
18:54:27 <jcraig> ack mich
18:54:29 <MichaelC> ack me
18:55:11 <Mark> MC: Just to put this into pros and cons
18:55:48 <Mark> ...pro: create a giant mapping between aapi's and arias.  identify gaps
18:55:56 <Mark> s/arias/aria
18:56:29 <Mark> ...con: if we say its the a11y solution of the future, other groups will ignore a11y, including those that ARIA doesn't touch
18:57:02 <Mark> ...the aria- prefix "ghettoizes" accessibility
18:57:18 <Mark> ...imposing on ourselves to keep aria up to date as new technologies emerge
18:57:28 <cyns> q+ to say that being the accessibility api layer of the web doesn't mean that other technologies don't need to do anything, just that they need to implement that API
18:57:36 <jcraig> jcraig to respond to Michael's points
18:58:22 <Mark> ...are there implementation costs to having ARIA supported everywhere
18:58:26 <jcraig> q?
18:58:26 <Mark> ...we need to be comfortable with these risks if we take this approach
18:58:33 <davidb> what a terrible time for me to have to step away
18:58:34 <Mark> ack cyns
18:58:35 <Zakim> cyns, you wanted to say that being the accessibility api layer of the web doesn't mean that other technologies don't need to do anything, just that they need to implement that API
18:58:37 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
18:58:42 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+
18:58:45 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
18:59:17 <Mark> CS: agree that some of these things are risks.  having an universal AAPI doesn't mean others are off the hook.
18:59:27 <Mark> MC: that is a messaging challenge, ok
18:59:41 <Mark> CS: as far as implementation costs, it shouldn't be an extra cost.
18:59:47 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
19:00:10 <Mark> ach richardschwerdtfeger
19:00:14 <Mark> ack ri
19:00:19 <jcraig> q+ jcraig to respond to Michael's points
19:00:29 <Mark> RS: developers want to have one point of reference.
19:01:17 <Mark> ...value of ARIA is that it can create a single vocabulary
19:01:28 <Mark> s/developers/implementers
19:01:49 <Mark> ...had convo with AWK who asked me if we can ditch ALT
19:01:57 <Mark> ...its not like flipping a switch
19:02:20 <jcraig> q?
19:03:00 <LisaSeeman> q+
19:03:26 <mattking> Do we need a resolution proposal like the following?
19:03:29 <mattking> Starting with with ARIA 1.1, shape specification contents and language to position ARIA is a comprehensive and uniform approach to specifying accessibility semantics in native host language elements, customized elements of host language elements, and ......
19:03:30 <mattking> Note: this does not take host languages off the hook.
19:04:32 <jcraig> ack me
19:04:32 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to respond to Michael's points
19:05:01 <Mark> JC: setting up an API that works for every aspect of the web, doesn't mean that everyone else is off the hook for a11y.
19:05:38 <Mark> ...in the case of HTML, there is base functionality that, because the provide functionality, have to provide a11y
19:06:08 <Mark> ...aria 1.0 is only for markup of the web.  needs to have a scriptable interface
19:06:28 <Mark> CS: not convinced scriptable interface is the way to go, but willing to have that convo
19:07:11 <Mark> MC: I just wanted to be sure we thought it through
19:07:43 <jcraig> s/aria 1.0 is only for markup of the web./aria 1.0 is not really the "Accessibility API for the Web", because the current iteration is only for the "markup of the Web."/
19:08:22 <Mark> MC: simply resolution is that ARIA should be a complete technology
19:08:49 <jcraig> s/needs to have a scriptable interface/Among other things, we need to have a scriptable interface for things like WebGL that have no markup base./
19:10:12 <Mark> CS: wanted to point out that ARIA is not really an API
19:10:34 <Mark> MC: important to know what we're all talking about.  can come back and wordsmith later
19:10:35 <richardschwerdtfeger> *richardschwerdtfeger Goal is to have ARIA be the base, cross markup, accessibility layer for the web
19:11:04 <richardschwerdtfeger> *richardschwerdtfeger Goal is to have ARIA be the base accessibility layer for the web
19:11:15 <clown> replace "cross markup" with "cross platform"?
19:11:39 <jcraig> no need, because the web is already cross-platform
19:13:06 <jcraig> q?
19:13:31 <jcraig> ack Li
19:13:34 <LisaSeeman> ack me
19:13:36 <richardschwerdtfeger> RESOLUTION: The intention of the group is for WAI-ARIA to become the base accessibility layer for the Web
19:13:47 <jcraig> zakim, next item
19:13:47 <Zakim> agendum 17. "host language binding" taken up [from jcraig]
19:14:45 <Mark> RS: I want the "bridging" text out of ARIA 1.0
19:14:50 <Mark> MC: need to do that for Monday
19:14:56 <Mark> JC: I can do that
19:15:23 <richardschwerdtfeger> zakim, next item
19:15:23 <Zakim> agendum 19. "Scrubbing ARIA 1.1 Issues and Actions https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/17" taken up [from jcraig]
19:15:37 <MichaelC> zakim, take up item 17
19:15:37 <Zakim> agendum 17. "host language binding" taken up [from jcraig]
19:16:34 <Mark> MC: We have a section in ARIA a section on how ARIA interacts with host language semantics.  We say that host languages can say where ARIA is allowed to override their native semantics or not.
19:16:55 <Mark> ...I feel like we got into the weeds when doing this for HTML
19:17:18 <Mark> ...Need to be clear that the ARIA features are the ARIA features.
19:18:25 <Mark> ...in ARIA we will need a feature for emphasis.  What the feature looks like shouldn't be caught up in what HTML supports
19:18:49 <Mark> ...i.e. the strong tag should not be reclassified based on a limitation imposed by HTML's definition
19:19:30 <Mark> ...jsut want to say that host language bindings for ARIA should be separate from host language features.
19:19:52 <Mark> ...could be done with separate specs or separate sections of the spec.
19:21:20 <Mark> JC: 1:1 mapping with HTML would effectively double our roles.  would be easier to test, but there is an aspect that means that it would be too big of a challenge for 1.1
19:22:08 <Mark> ...so there would be some unknown or unmapped roels
19:22:15 <Mark> s/roels/roles
19:22:35 <Mark> RS: would this be done in web apps, in some scripting part of ARIA
19:22:42 <Mark> CS: implementation guide maybe?
19:23:13 <Mark> MC: one of the ways we want to slice ARIA is to have roles  in one place and anything else in some other place; mappings to host languages, AAPI's, etc
19:23:23 <Mark> ...won't have the list of roles in 1.1.
19:24:17 <Mark> CS: the issue of text runs is a separate issue
19:24:42 <jcraig> q+ to mention WebIDL: partial interface Element { readonly attribute role; attribute OrderedDOMTokenList roleList; }
19:24:51 <Mark> MC: for 1.1 we would say, "no ARIA mapping" in that case
19:25:04 <Mark> ...in 2.0 we come in and fill in the blanks
19:26:02 <Mark> MC: don't object to considering the issue, just not committing to getting it done in 1.1
19:26:30 <Mark> ack j
19:26:30 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to mention WebIDL: partial interface Element { readonly attribute role; attribute OrderedDOMTokenList roleList; }
19:27:56 <Mark> JC: could use this to create extensions to the DOM
19:29:10 <Mark> RS: SVG WG is aligning itself with the HTML DOM which has been moved to HTML WG.  We can get these features implemented there
19:29:55 <jcraig> q?
19:30:33 <Mark> -> http://www.w3.org/TR/dom/ DOM4
19:31:00 <richardschwerdtfeger> zakim, next item
19:31:00 <Zakim> agendum 19. "Scrubbing ARIA 1.1 Issues and Actions https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/17" taken up [from jcraig]
19:31:23 <jcraig> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/17
19:31:54 <jcraig> issue-398?
19:31:54 <trackbot> issue-398 -- Errata: aria-setsize and aria-posinset should apply to more than just listitem and option -- open
19:31:54 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/398
19:32:57 <jcraig> issue-411
19:32:57 <trackbot> issue-411 -- Consider aria-description which would take a string like aria-label -- open
19:32:57 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/411
19:35:07 <LisaSeeman> If there is anything that uyou need me for we should do it today (I can not be there tomorow)
19:35:48 <Mark> JC: this is what aria-label is to aria-labelled by for aria-describedby
19:35:56 <David_MacD_Lenovo_> q+
19:36:02 <LisaSeeman> Q+
19:37:23 <bgaraventa1979> aria-describedby associates header cells on ARIA grids as well
19:37:26 <Mark> JC: if we add 4 ways to add descriptions, it gets complicated for developers to know which to use and when
19:37:47 <mattking> Q+
19:38:25 <Mark> DM: the biggest error with longdesc is when people but a long description directly in the attribute value
19:38:50 <Mark> JN: i find it strange that we don't have the equivalent to aria-label
19:39:33 <jcraig> q+ to consider with ISSUE-406
19:39:55 <Mark> CS: we had a scenario where this came up.  The button said "allow" and text that informed what they were "allowing".  Didn't work in any browser
19:41:11 <Mark> MK: think describedby is the better solution for that
19:41:27 <joanie> q+
19:41:47 <Mark> ack David_MacD_Lenovo
19:42:58 <jcraig> q+ to ask Cyns if there is a Windows platform API equivalent of something like aria-help (ISSUE-406) or aria-description (ISSUE-411)
19:44:18 <Mark> ack LisaSeeman
19:44:43 <Mark> LS: anything that gets rid of people positioning text off the screen is good with me
19:44:53 <Mark> +1
19:45:14 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
19:46:09 <Mark> ack matt
19:46:37 <Mark> MK: this process is to decide what is in the 1.1 queue or not
19:47:21 <Mark> MK: ISSUE-411 is frequently brought up, but there is no simple solution.  should be pushed out.
19:47:26 <Mark> JN: it would be easy to implement
19:48:19 <jcraig> ack me
19:48:19 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to consider with ISSUE-406 and to ask Cyns if there is a Windows platform API equivalent of something like aria-help (ISSUE-406) or aria-description (ISSUE-411)
19:48:25 <Mark> JC: this is not as easy as people think.
19:48:25 <Mark> RS: agreed
19:48:25 <Mark> JS: this is 2.0
19:48:25 <Mark> MK: agreed
19:48:55 <Mark> JC: this should be coupled with aria-help.  on mac, it acts as a fallback, like title
19:49:20 <ShaneM> issue-406?
19:49:20 <trackbot> issue-406 -- Proposal for new aria-help property. -- raised
19:49:20 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/406
19:49:44 <MichaelC> MichaelC has joined #aria
19:50:30 <jcraig> AGENDA+ aria-hidden="false"
19:50:53 <Mark> JD: I have a lot of different problems with the hacks that are currently being used to solve this problem.
19:51:06 <Mark> RS: if you hide content, you don't have access to the semantics
19:51:26 <Mark> JD: not all Screen readers have an off screen model
19:52:13 <Mark> ...we don't want to encourage content creators to put stuff off screen or to hide content.
19:53:25 <Mark> ...these issues are connected, because there are no other solution combinations for this problem
19:53:31 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
19:53:34 <Mark> ack jo
19:53:35 <jcraig> q+
19:53:37 <joanie> q-
19:53:48 <cyns> cyns has joined #aria
19:53:49 <Mark> ack jc
19:55:40 <Mark> JC: aria-hidden= false is a way to hide content visually, but not from screen readers
19:56:25 <Mark> RS: and this is in the DOM
19:56:46 <jcraig> but neither is important enough for ARIA 1.1
19:59:42 <Mark> JC: aria-help would solve these issues. Maybe we should aim for that instead (this is all in ISSUE-406)
20:00:22 <Mark> -> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/406 ISSUE-406
20:00:58 <Mark> ...this should be the same mechanism as tooltip
20:01:14 <Mark> CS: wouldn't this impact description calculation
20:01:17 <clown> q+ how does this fit with the tootip role?
20:01:26 <clown> q+ to ask how does this fit with the tootip role?
20:01:48 <clown> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/roles#tooltip
20:01:54 <jongunderson> q+
20:02:48 <Mark> MK: is there a possibility that we could give one precedence and worry about the calculation in 2.0
20:03:21 <MichaelC> MichaelC has joined #aria
20:03:42 <clown> ack me
20:03:42 <Zakim> Joseph_Scheuhammer, you wanted to ask how does this fit with the tootip role?
20:04:05 <MichaelC> MichaelC has joined #aria
20:04:40 <clown> issue-398?
20:04:41 <trackbot> issue-398 -- Errata: aria-setsize and aria-posinset should apply to more than just listitem and option -- open
20:04:41 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/398
20:04:56 <Mark> JC: cyns to determine the best place to map these in MSAA UIA
20:05:11 <Mark> CS: not sure how it would work
20:05:59 <Mark> ...if we do this, we need test files early.  best bet at getting implementations
20:10:46 <Mark> RS: we need to consider a column role
20:11:13 <Mark> CS: there is a lot of work for tables.
20:12:25 <Mark> JC: grids don't work well because the data is not programatically accessible.  We don't have that because ARIA is declarative.
20:13:10 <Mark> CS: I submit that ARIA table should be in 2.0 but that we start working on it now
20:14:03 <Mark> JN: i don't want to punt this, but if it has to go to 2.0, it has to go
20:14:32 <jcraig> Punt ISSUE-398 to ARIA 2.0
20:14:38 <Mark> ISSUE-435
20:14:38 <trackbot> ISSUE-435 -- Consider role="text" to expose elements (and contents) as static text node -- open
20:14:38 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/435
20:14:52 <Mark> JC: this one is easy
20:14:59 <Mark> RS: agreed, lets keep it
20:16:15 <clown> Example:  My <img src="heart.png" alt="heart" role="text"> breaks
20:18:33 <Mark> ISSUE-436
20:18:33 <trackbot> ISSUE-436 -- Consider role="disclosure" to match semantics of desktop API disclosure triangles, or other show/hide widgets -- open
20:18:33 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/436
20:18:46 <Mark> RS: we cannot ignore this.  we have it in HTML5
20:21:40 <Mark> ISSUE-446
20:21:40 <trackbot> ISSUE-446 -- proposing new switch role (subclass of checkbox) that represents an on/off state -- open
20:21:40 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/446
20:22:14 <Mark> JC: this is a switch that maps to an on or off state, checkbox
20:22:58 <Mark> ...visual design distinction not defined in ARIA
20:23:55 <Mark> ...there is a semantic difference here.  its not checked or unchecked, its more like on or off
20:24:17 <Mark> JG: what is its state?
20:25:46 <Mark> keeping 446 in 1.1
20:25:51 <Mark> ISSUE-468
20:25:51 <trackbot> ISSUE-468 -- Create ARIA role for figure or other image groups (including SVG) -- open
20:25:51 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/468
20:26:01 <Mark> RS: we have role=image.  why do we need this for figure
20:26:12 <Mark> JC: figure can contain a chart and a caption.
20:26:17 <Mark> JN: its a group
20:26:53 <Mark> MK: you can label groups.
20:27:43 <Mark> JC: figure is already mapped to group.  all of the pieces of that figure are mapped to image, text, etc.
20:29:27 <Mark> agree to push ISSUE-468 to 2.0
20:29:41 <Mark> ISSUE-472
20:29:41 <trackbot> ISSUE-472 -- Provide an attribute for a poster description -- open
20:29:41 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/472
20:30:01 <Mark> JS: we need this in 1.1
20:30:39 <Mark> RS: if we had a video role, we could do this.
20:32:50 <Mark> JS: not important enough to address outside of the video role
20:32:57 <Mark> s/JS/JC
20:38:22 <Mark> CS: i think html should deal with this, its their bug
20:38:27 <Mark> RS: they said its not their issue
20:39:16 <Mark> DM: what if WCAG tags an action to address this with a technique
20:39:25 <Mark> s/tags/takes
20:41:27 <Mark> ACTION: dmd to write a WCAG technique that address the description for the poster of an HTML5 video
20:41:28 <trackbot> Error finding 'dmd'. You can review and register nicknames at <https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/users>.
20:42:53 <Mark> Mark has left #aria
20:43:06 <Mark> Mark has joined #aria
20:44:54 <jcraig> ACTION: David_MacDonald to create a WCAG technique for poster description
20:44:54 <trackbot> Error finding 'David_MacDonald'. You can review and register nicknames at <https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/users>.
20:49:51 <Mark> RS: HTML5 wants us to have host language semantics and we don't have that for the video element
20:50:12 <Mark> JC: the only way to implement this now is as a subrole of group
20:50:56 <Mark> ...most of these controls are handled in the shadow dom on most platforms.  has to be a group
20:51:34 <Mark> JC: lets create a new issue for considering role of video in ARIA 1.1
20:53:18 <Mark> ...we should consider an audio role as well
20:53:27 <Zakim> +??P4
20:53:39 <jcraig> ISSUE: video and audio roles (simple groups, not full functionality APIs)
20:53:39 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-634 - Video and audio roles (simple groups, not full functionality apis).  Please complete additional details at <https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/634/edit>.
20:54:15 <jcraig> ACTION: JamesN to create a WCAG technique for poster description
20:54:15 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1331 - Create a wcag technique for poster description [on James Nurthen - due 2014-01-30].
20:54:52 <MichaelC> zakim, ??p4 is Jason_White
20:54:52 <Zakim> +Jason_White; got it
20:55:32 <clown> -13 C here;
20:55:53 <clown> windchill −20 C
20:56:12 <clown> 23 C in the room...
21:12:28 <MichaelC> trackbot, associate action-1331 with issue-472
21:12:28 <trackbot> action-1331 (Create a wcag technique for poster description) associated with issue-472.
21:15:38 <jcraig> Issue-482?
21:15:38 <trackbot> Issue-482 -- Normative reference to status role in status definition must be removed due to redundancy -- open
21:15:38 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/482
21:15:38 <jnurthen> scribe: jnurthen
21:16:14 <jnurthen> matt: seems editorial in that it doesn't change the meaning
21:16:51 <jnurthen> jc: taking a look at it
21:16:55 <jcraig> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/complete#status
21:17:28 <jnurthen> jc: it is redundant to say that authors must include status in status
21:18:13 <jcraig> ACTION: jcraig to <change>
21:18:13 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1332 - <change> [on James Craig - due 2014-01-30].
21:18:13 <jcraig> Authors MUST provide status information content within an an element with role="status". Authors SHOULD ensure this object does not receive focus.
21:18:14 <jcraig> </change><to>Authors SHOULD ensure this object with role="status" does not receive focus.</to>
21:18:25 <jcraig> action-1332
21:18:25 <trackbot> action-1332 -- James Craig to <change> -- due 2014-01-30 -- OPEN
21:18:25 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1332
21:19:21 <jnurthen> shane: the link you just gave is to an editors draft. The CR draft doesn't say any of this
21:19:25 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aria
21:19:34 <ShaneM> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/complete#status
21:21:00 <jnurthen> JC: changed status object to element with role status but didnt remove the redundant requirement
21:21:47 <jnurthen> ISSUE-483?
21:21:47 <trackbot> ISSUE-483 -- Modify toolbar role to include aria-labelledby as an acceptable authoring mechanism for labeling when more than one toolbar is provided. -- open
21:21:47 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/483
21:22:49 <jnurthen> jc: seems editorial
21:23:07 <jnurthen> js: this is from the errata list
21:23:09 <clown> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/roles#toolbar
21:24:11 <jcraig> ACTION: jcraig to "aria-label" to "label" in #toolbar "Authors MUST supply an aria-label property on each toolbar when the application contains more than one toolbar."
21:24:11 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1333 - "aria-label" to "label" in #toolbar "authors must supply an aria-label property on each toolbar when the application contains more than one toolbar." [on James Craig - due 2014-01-30].
21:24:49 <jnurthen> MC: had to work around author musts in the implementation report
21:25:42 <jnurthen> rs: should review the author musts
21:26:09 <jcraig> action: jcraig to complete edit from ISSUE-485
21:26:09 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1334 - Complete edit from issue-485 [on James Craig - due 2014-01-30].
21:26:30 <jnurthen> ISSUE-493?
21:26:30 <trackbot> ISSUE-493 -- When states and properties are required, authors must provide a value; but the explicit value of "undefined" is not prohibited and should be -- open
21:26:30 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/493
21:27:38 <jnurthen> jc: can take an action to add to a section
21:27:50 <jcraig> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/complete#requiredState
21:28:31 <jnurthen> jc: change to explicitly disallow empty or undefined
21:28:32 <jcraig> Content authors MUST provide values for required states and properties.
21:28:43 <jnurthen> jc: shouldn't close the issue
21:29:28 <jnurthen> rs: aria-checked="undefined" on a radio button was an issue
21:29:46 <jnurthen> jc: we have explicitly allowed the string value of undefined to mean nothing
21:30:07 <jnurthen> jc: I think that is ok as we have the case where role="checkbox" where undefined equates to false
21:30:21 <jnurthen> jc: leave the issue open for now
21:30:29 <jnurthen> ISSUE-494?
21:30:29 <trackbot> ISSUE-494 -- Is menu really a form control (since it inherits from select) or should it be treated as something different? -- open
21:30:29 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/494
21:31:18 <jcraig> ACTION: jcraig to propose edit for ISSUE-493 to explicitly disallow strings matching "" or "undefined" in this sentence: Content authors MUST provide values for required states and properties.
21:31:18 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1335 - Propose edit for issue-493 to explicitly disallow strings matching "" or "undefined" in this sentence: content authors must provide values for required states and properties. [on James Craig - due 2014-01-30].
21:32:48 <davidb> davidb has joined #aria
21:32:48 <jnurthen> mc: why is menu a form control?
21:33:26 <jnurthen> rs: it is interactive
21:35:09 <jnurthen> jc: do we need to resolve in 1.1?
21:35:52 <jnurthen> mc: not causing harm so puts in 2.0 timeframe
21:36:17 <jnurthen> jc: what does it mean to have a required menu. makes no sense....
21:36:38 <jnurthen> mk: punt to 2.0
21:36:48 <jnurthen> js: punt
21:36:55 <jcraig> issue-497?
21:36:55 <trackbot> issue-497 -- When features require an element with a particular role be present (e.g., grid requires that gridcell be owned by row), implicit native semantics, if defined, count (e.g., tr without a role attribute counts as an element with role row) -- open
21:36:56 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/497
21:37:28 <jnurthen> dmd: is it a navigatoion menu or a functional menu?
21:37:36 <jnurthen> jc: both potentially
21:39:29 <jnurthen> rs: we need this
21:40:14 <jcraig> action: jcraig to patch issue-497
21:40:14 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1336 - Patch issue-497 [on James Craig - due 2014-01-30].
21:40:22 <jcraig> ACTION-1336
21:40:22 <trackbot> ACTION-1336 -- James Craig to Patch issue-497 -- due 2014-01-30 -- OPEN
21:40:22 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1336
21:40:36 <jnurthen> ACTION-502?
21:40:36 <trackbot> ACTION-502 -- Michael Cooper to Ask Doug Schepers whether SVG follows XML schema rules validation -- due 2009-07-31 -- CLOSED
21:40:36 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/502
21:40:46 <jnurthen> ISSUE-502?
21:40:46 <trackbot> ISSUE-502 -- Decide whether accessible name is required for menus -- open
21:40:46 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/502
21:41:02 <jnurthen> rs: no they are not required. Needs cleaning up
21:43:10 <jnurthen> ISSUE-503?
21:43:10 <trackbot> ISSUE-503 -- Does everything inhert to owned roles, or just the states and properties? spec doesn't clarify, we should be explicit about what inherits and what doesn't unless it's everything -- open
21:43:10 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/503
21:43:16 <jnurthen> jc: move to 2.09
21:43:23 <jnurthen> s/2.09/2.0/
21:43:31 <clown> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/roles#menu  (characteristics table).
21:45:09 <jnurthen> ISSUE-504?
21:45:09 <trackbot> ISSUE-504 -- radio shouldn't have aria-selected -- open
21:45:09 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/504
21:45:10 <jcraig> action: jcraig to patch issue-502
21:45:10 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1337 - Patch issue-502 [on James Craig - due 2014-01-30].
21:45:28 <jcraig> action-1337
21:45:28 <trackbot> action-1337 -- James Craig to Patch issue-502 -- due 2014-01-30 -- OPEN
21:45:28 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1337
21:46:20 <jnurthen> rs: need an action to fix taxonomy so aria-selected is not required on radio
21:47:29 <jnurthen> mk: sounds pretty well thought out in the text
21:47:50 <jcraig> Radio shouldn't inherit from option, just from checkbox; copy aria-posinset and aria-setsize to radio; move aria-checked to checkbox, leave aria-selected on option with radio not inheriting that; affects nearby items in the taxonomy which need a close look. Probably also need to remove aria-checked from the option role.
21:48:51 <jnurthen> rs: david bolter came up with a mixed use case for checkbox
21:49:01 <jnurthen> s/checkbox/radio button/
21:49:46 <jnurthen> rs: did we say domething like mixed doesn't apply
21:50:17 <clown> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/states_and_properties#aria-checked
21:50:20 <jcraig> action: jcraig to patch issue-504, then assign to cooper for the taxonomy doc
21:50:20 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1338 - Patch issue-504, then assign to cooper for the taxonomy doc [on James Craig - due 2014-01-30].
21:50:26 <jnurthen> clown: we have stuff in the checked state to disallow this
21:51:10 <clown> "The mixed value is not supported on radio or menuitemradio or any element that inherits from these in the taxonomy, and user agents MUST treat a mixed value as equivalent to false for those roles."
21:51:18 <jnurthen> rs: if we make this change do we have to fix the taxonomy?
21:51:41 <jcraig> ACTION-1338
21:51:41 <trackbot> ACTION-1338 -- James Craig to Patch issue-504, then assign to cooper for the taxonomy doc -- due 2014-01-30 -- OPEN
21:51:41 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1338
21:53:00 <jnurthen> ACTION-508?
21:53:00 <trackbot> ACTION-508 -- James Craig to Create a new proposal based on the comments from this week for comment 115 -- due 2009-08-10 -- CLOSED
21:53:00 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/508
21:53:07 <jnurthen> ISSUE-508?
21:53:07 <trackbot> ISSUE-508 -- Add treegrid as allowed role in required context role for rowgroup -- open
21:53:08 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/508
21:54:45 <jnurthen> jc: shouldn't we do this?
21:55:10 <jnurthen> jc: I think this is a simple edit
21:56:19 <jnurthen> mc: this is a simple edit to the spec. Don't know if it is a simple implmentation or not
21:57:03 <jcraig> action: jcraig to patch issue-508
21:57:03 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1339 - Patch issue-508 [on James Craig - due 2014-01-30].
21:57:39 <jcraig> ACTION-1339
21:57:39 <trackbot> ACTION-1339 -- James Craig to Patch issue-508 -- due 2014-01-30 -- OPEN
21:57:39 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1339
21:59:06 <jnurthen> rs: need to look to see if there is an impact on test tools of a taxonomy
21:59:41 <jnurthen> ACTION: rich to Look to see if taxonomy changes will impact test tools
21:59:41 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1340 - Look to see if taxonomy changes will impact test tools [on Richard Schwerdtfeger - due 2014-01-30].
22:02:17 <clown> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/testresults?testsuite_id=1&testcase_id=56
22:04:47 <jnurthen> joanie: random panels doesn't seem right. Perhaps better with no role
22:05:15 <jnurthen> rs: is there a reason you created a panel for this?
22:07:04 <jnurthen> jc: needs something for 1:1 mapping with tbody etc.
22:07:56 <jnurthen> Issue: determine if UAIG mappings for rowgroup are correct
22:07:56 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-635 - Determine if uaig mappings for rowgroup are correct.  Please complete additional details at <https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/635/edit>.
22:08:11 <jnurthen> ISSUE-510?
22:08:11 <trackbot> ISSUE-510 -- Investigate issues around the authors must statement in the select role -- open
22:08:11 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/510
22:08:24 <clown> www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/roles#select
22:08:31 <jcraig> Authors MUST ensure elements with role option are contained in an element using one of the non-abstract child roles of select, such as combobox, listbox, menu, radiogroup, or tree.
22:09:23 <jnurthen> mk: author musts - add to the action to review author musts
22:12:08 <jnurthen> ISSUE-513?
22:12:08 <trackbot> ISSUE-513 -- #toolbar normative statement should not require @aria-label, any label will do -- open
22:12:08 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/513
22:13:49 <jnurthen> close 513
22:14:02 <jnurthen> ISSUE-514?
22:14:02 <trackbot> ISSUE-514 -- #treegrid has normative-like statement with no normative requirements: "The value of the treegrid element's aria-readonly attribute is implicitly propagated to all of its owned gridcell elements, and will be exposed through the accessibility API." -- open
22:14:03 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/514
22:15:55 <jnurthen> jn: do we do the same on grid?
22:15:55 <jcraig> action: jcraig to patch ISSUE-514 (include grid)
22:15:56 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1341 - Patch issue-514 (include grid) [on James Craig - due 2014-01-30].
22:16:02 <jcraig> ACTION-1341
22:16:02 <trackbot> ACTION-1341 -- James Craig to Patch issue-514 (include grid) -- due 2014-01-30 -- OPEN
22:16:02 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1341
22:17:11 <jnurthen> ISSUE-516?
22:17:11 <trackbot> ISSUE-516 -- Reconsider RFC requirements for UA/AT in #aria-flowto -- open
22:17:11 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/516
22:17:58 <jnurthen> jc: maybe outside the scope of aria
22:18:13 <jnurthen> mk: didn't want any normative language around AT
22:18:57 <jnurthen> jc: we are declaring User Interface here....
22:19:07 <jnurthen> mk: not worth a fight
22:19:16 <jnurthen> cs: I don't want to make it a may
22:19:26 <jnurthen> cs: need more must statements against AT
22:19:47 <jnurthen> mk: AT vendors would need to do implementations
22:20:17 <jnurthen> jc: these are competing software products and some of these things are differentiating features
22:20:44 <jnurthen> jc: when we start decreeing user interface on things then it is the UI's choice how to expose it
22:25:22 <jnurthen> mk: if we are going to resolve this it would need to be in an implementation guide not a spec
22:26:27 <jnurthen> cs: one of the problems is that it is assumed that we all work around AT requirements
22:31:34 <jnurthen> jc: change 516 to  be a general AT issue against 2.0
22:35:55 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
22:35:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/01/23-aria-minutes.html MichaelC
22:36:26 <MichaelC> rrsagent, do not start a new log
22:54:39 <clown> http://archive.dojotoolkit.org/nightly/dojotoolkit/dijit/tests/form/test_Spinner.html
22:57:51 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #aria
23:07:08 <cyns> cyns has joined #aria
23:07:23 <clown> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/testresults?testsuite_id=3&testcase_id=17
23:07:44 <jnurthen> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/17
23:08:09 <cyns> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/519
23:08:28 <cyns> scribe: cyns
23:09:11 <cyns> cs: is this related to the earlier issue around row and column posinset
23:09:21 <cyns> mc: ok for 1.1
23:09:53 <cyns> mk: level shouldn't be on item tag, should it?
23:10:19 <cyns> mc: yes it is, because you use aria-level because the ua can't compute depth.  that means you have to set on all children
23:10:38 <cyns> jc: is there ever a case where we need aria-level on a grid?
23:10:53 <cyns> js: sounds like part of 2.0 grid discussion?
23:11:17 <jcraig> issue-520
23:11:17 <trackbot> issue-520 -- Expand list of roles on which aria-readonly can be used, most likely changing textbox to input - ARIA 1.1 -- open
23:11:17 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/520
23:11:58 <cyns> mk: i raised it, it's ok to push to 2.0
23:12:12 <cyns> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/522
23:12:34 <cyns> Bullet point 3 in 2A is causing confusion to the public
23:12:48 <cyns> "If aria-labelledby and aria-label are both empty or undefined, and if the element is not marked as presentational (role="presentation"), check for the presence of an equivalent host language attribute or element for associating a label, and use those mechanisms to determine a text alternative. For example, in HTML, the img element's alt attribute defines a label string and the label element references the form element it labels. See How to Specify Alternate Text ([
23:12:57 <cyns> People are reading this to mean that anything with role="presentation" does not get included in the accessible name calculation (including any child content of that element). This needs clarifying
23:13:06 <cyns> js: this sounds like we should clean it up
23:13:07 <jcraig> issue-523
23:13:07 <trackbot> issue-523 -- searchbox/searchfield role which is a subrole of textbox/textfield -- open
23:13:07 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/523
23:13:13 <cyns> <general agreement>
23:13:21 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aria
23:13:52 <cyns> jc: apple has a slightly different search semantic
23:14:03 <cyns> js: also covered in html5, we should sync to them
23:14:46 <cyns> ACTION: jcraig to patch issue-523
23:14:46 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1342 - Patch issue-523 [on James Craig - due 2014-01-30].
23:14:52 <jcraig>  ACTION-1342
23:14:52 <trackbot> ACTION-1342 -- James Craig to Patch issue-523 -- due 2014-01-30 -- OPEN
23:14:52 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1342
23:15:18 <cyns> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/525
23:15:51 <cyns> mk: dup of 516
23:16:53 <cyns> 525 has more detail and broader scope, so resolve 516 as dup
23:17:00 <cyns> is a 2.0 issue
23:17:26 <cyns> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/526
23:18:50 <cyns> js: keep for 1.1
23:19:23 <cyns> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/530
23:19:49 <cyns> jc: useful for validation tools, but not urgent
23:19:59 <cyns> all: move to 2.0
23:20:34 <cyns> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/532
23:20:41 <David_MacD_Lenovo> David_MacD_Lenovo has joined #aria
23:20:55 <cyns> mc: is this an issue of inconsistency?
23:21:39 <cyns> mc: this is a UAIG issue.  changing product
23:22:09 <cyns> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/537
23:22:38 <cyns> rs: if joanie is ok with this, let's leave it to 2.0
23:23:29 <cyns> mk: does this cover the issue we were discussing 2 weeks ago?  If hidden=false and it's an unrendered element, should we put element into a11y tree.
23:23:56 <cyns> jc: that's currently how it's worded.  there's contention, and support varies, but there are 2 impl so it's in.
23:24:29 <cyns> joanie: I want to put it off to 2.0, because we don't know what the use case are, and get expereince from that before changing.
23:24:39 <cyns> mk: consensus?
23:24:45 <cyns> js: welll.....
23:25:27 <cyns> rs: we could say that we don't have to map the tree if there is an aria hidden
23:25:39 <cyns> jc: related to html5?
23:26:24 <cyns> rs: hidden doesn't have strong host langauge semantices in html5.  someone can apply aria-hidden=false and apply to an element with @hidden.  maybe use a may?
23:26:35 <jcraig> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/complete#aria-hidden
23:26:41 <jcraig> Note: Authors are advised to avoid using aria-hidden="false" with styles or attributes that have historically prevented rendering in all modalities, such as display:none or visibility:hidden in CSS, or the hidden attribute in HTML 5. At the time of this writing, aria-hidden="false" is known to work inconsistently when used in conjunction with such features. As future implementations improve, use caution and test thoroughly before relying on this approach.
23:27:40 <cyns> rs: is there anything in uaig?
23:28:02 <cyns> cs: adding something to uaig 1.1 is a good idea.
23:30:04 <richardschwerdtfeger> Action: Cynthia define a mapping in the UAIG that covered aria-hidden="false" in all situations - including when a hidden attribute is applied.
23:30:05 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1343 - Define a mapping in the uaig that covered aria-hidden="false" in all situations - including when a hidden attribute is applied. [on Cynthia Shelly - due 2014-01-30].
23:30:14 <jcraig> action: jcraig to patch issue-544
23:30:14 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1344 - Patch issue-544 [on James Craig - due 2014-01-30].
23:30:20 <jcraig> ACTION-1344
23:30:20 <trackbot> ACTION-1344 -- James Craig to Patch issue-544 -- due 2014-01-30 -- OPEN
23:30:20 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1344
23:30:22 <cyns> jw: is this to expose content to AT and hide it from visual rendering?
23:30:35 <cyns> js: yes
23:30:40 <clown> action-1343?
23:30:40 <trackbot> action-1343 -- Cynthia Shelly to Define a mapping in the uaig that covered aria-hidden="false" in all situations - including when a hidden attribute is applied. -- due 2014-01-30 -- OPEN
23:30:40 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1343
23:31:09 <cyns> rs: moving 537 to ARIA 2.0
23:31:53 <cyns> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/544
23:32:22 <cyns> jc: editorial
23:32:44 <cyns> mk: this says AT "will" which is interesting language
23:33:20 <cyns> cs: is that 'will' prescriptive or descriptive?
23:33:31 <jcraig> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/complete#aria-atomic
23:34:15 <cyns> jc: descriptive
23:34:35 <cyns> cs: consider re-wording so that it's clear that it's descriptive
23:34:55 <cyns> jc: still1.1. closed issue but open action
23:35:13 <cyns> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/545
23:35:41 <cyns> jc: spec refers to DOM tree changes and UAIG refers to aapi tree changes
23:36:04 <cyns> rs: on windows tree refelcts dom
23:36:17 <cyns> cs: that's the goal, but impl is not perfect
23:37:06 <cyns> jc: we need a live-region algo that is at least as complex as the name algo. or, we need an API to do announcements.
23:37:31 <cyns> jc: the way we force authors and rendering engines to calculate chagnes is broken
23:38:14 <cyns> jc:  if you have a live region, and inside you have an element that is display:none. you set it to display:block. there is no DOM change, but there is an aapi tree change.
23:38:55 <cyns> JC: there is al ot of ambiguity.  one way to fix (probably 2.0) is describe all the differen scenarios (node chagne, text insertion, etc) and what happens.
23:39:03 <cyns> rs: we ignore DOM changes
23:39:08 <cyns> jc: yes we do
23:39:39 <cyns> rs: uaig doesn't have api mapping for general dom in html.  we don't say when the dom chagnes, you should expect these things to happne
23:40:02 <cyns> cs: that would be a feature for HTML UAIG
23:40:36 <cyns> jc: these are platform specific changes
23:40:43 <cyns> cs: i disagree
23:40:46 <cyns> rs: i disagree
23:41:16 <cyns> rs: what happens when display:none is set
23:41:25 <cyns> jc: removed from tree.
23:41:33 <cyns> rs; where spec'd?
23:41:46 <MichaelC> scribe: Michael
23:41:51 <MichaelC> scribe: MichaelC
23:42:09 <MichaelC> rs: we need a singular spec that says if something is removed from DOM, what happens
23:42:14 <MichaelC> or if you hide from AT
23:42:18 <MichaelC> mk: 1.1/
23:42:25 <MichaelC> cs: not ARIA issue
23:42:48 <MichaelC> rs: yes but we need a generic spec for these basic DOM things
23:42:56 <MichaelC> cs: how different from HTML API map
23:43:04 <MichaelC> rs: also need for SVG
23:43:21 <MichaelC> jc: yes, need something for a UAIG, but not ARIA core and not 1.1
23:43:25 <MichaelC> rs: true
23:43:33 <MichaelC> but need to sync implementation guide for HTML and ARIA
23:43:38 <MichaelC> cs: no resources
23:43:40 <MichaelC> rs: gotta do
23:44:02 <MichaelC> HTML wants this to be normative
23:44:07 <MichaelC> cs: me too, but don´t hear the support for that
23:44:17 <MichaelC> rs: the HTML A11Y TF
23:45:15 <MichaelC> jc: <sorts out what spec say what>
23:45:25 <MichaelC> so think UAIG needs to spec something
23:45:34 <MichaelC> would like to do in 1.1 as prose
23:46:13 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aria
23:46:19 <MichaelC> for DOM-based AT, the ARIA layer is the AAPI layer
23:46:35 <MichaelC> another AT could choose which layer to use
23:47:11 <MichaelC> jc: will propose an edit
23:47:16 <MichaelC> and see how it lands
23:47:30 <MichaelC> jgw: separate issue for 2.0?
23:47:43 <MichaelC> jc: something to talk about at this meeting
23:47:49 <MichaelC> anything we don´t get to, raise issues
23:48:07 <jcraig> ACTION: jcraig to propose an edit ISSUE-545 resolving live region changes to dom vs a11y tree
23:48:07 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1345 - Propose an edit issue-545 resolving live region changes to dom vs a11y tree [on James Craig - due 2014-01-30].
23:48:15 <jcraig> ACTION-1345
23:48:15 <trackbot> ACTION-1345 -- James Craig to Propose an edit issue-545 resolving live region changes to dom vs a11y tree -- due 2014-01-30 -- OPEN
23:48:15 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1345
23:49:21 <cyns> scribe: cyns
23:51:01 <cyns> jc: aria-roledescription.  allows authors to change what is spoken
23:52:06 <MichaelC> scribe: MichaelC
23:52:21 <MichaelC> cs: ARIA role might be item or listitem
23:52:28 <jcraig> TOPIC: @aria-roledescription (custom role descriptions on known role types)
23:52:42 <MichaelC> but for a special kind, local type could be e.g., ¨foobarlistitem¨
23:52:47 <MichaelC> that´s a localizable string
23:53:09 <MichaelC> jc: either browser or AT can localize that
23:53:23 <MichaelC> cs: in the AAPI not localizable, but as voiced to user, can be
23:53:31 <MichaelC> not under author control, it´s an IE feature
23:53:46 <jcraig> example: <video> element in html would default to something like <video role="group" aria-roledescription="video">
23:54:01 <MichaelC> jc: @@
23:54:19 <MichaelC> cs: it´s an artefact that it´s localizable
23:54:51 <MichaelC> jc: video element defaults to role=group and roledescription=video
23:55:14 <MichaelC> in a slideset, each slide is role=region and roledescription=slide
23:55:21 <MichaelC> rs: do we require roledescription?
23:55:38 <MichaelC> mk: sounds like a way to do mapping in HTML 5
23:55:45 <MichaelC> but do the AAPIs all support this?
23:56:02 <MichaelC> jc: platform role doesn´t change, has to be a known token
23:56:05 <MichaelC> cs: which creates behaviour
23:56:17 <MichaelC> mk: and in AT
23:56:27 <jcraig> example: slides in presentation software would could be something like <div role="region" aria-roledescription="slide">
23:56:38 <MichaelC> cs: Windows applications can change the string
23:56:41 <MichaelC> HTML authors can´t
23:57:15 <MichaelC> rs: this is another thing to localize
23:57:15 <MichaelC> cs: only if they want to
23:58:04 <MichaelC> mk: so different behaviour for different role tokens?
23:58:22 <MichaelC> jc, cs: no, just spoken role is different, not underlying behaviour
23:58:44 <MichaelC> jmd: in Hungarian, @@
23:58:55 <MichaelC> the localization doesn´t work the same way
23:59:04 <MichaelC> jc: browser should piece together string
23:59:45 <MichaelC> jmd: have to pay attention to declension etc.
00:00:05 <MichaelC> cs: only one thing changes
00:00:24 <MichaelC> jc: label is usually most important because unique
00:00:29 <MichaelC> role description second
00:00:40 <MichaelC> we had a mailboxgroup
00:00:49 <MichaelC> to AT as group
00:01:18 <MichaelC> we treated these as token values
00:01:41 <MichaelC> so got mailbox groupo in es
00:02:00 <MichaelC> so less nonsensical to have the things put together
00:02:21 <MichaelC> better than a longer technically perfect localization
00:03:04 <MichaelC> rs: what incentive for average author to put in role description?
00:03:05 <MichaelC> cs: average author need do nothing
00:03:14 <MichaelC> rs: they´ll just use group
00:03:16 <MichaelC> cs: fine
00:03:21 <MichaelC> rs: but video...
00:03:28 <MichaelC> cs: that´s automatic anyways
00:03:44 <MichaelC> rs: what about flash video labeled group?
00:03:48 <MichaelC> jc: author mistake
00:04:02 <MichaelC> cs: Adobe will provide an appropriate embed code sample
00:04:20 <MichaelC> mk: do you expect AT to say ¨video group¨?
00:04:32 <MichaelC> cs: now we´re talking about an object that is a flash player....
00:04:56 <MichaelC> mk: do you want role description so you can map video to group and have localizable additional info?
00:05:09 <MichaelC> cs: IE does that already
00:05:15 <MichaelC> there´s the automatic behaviour of browser
00:05:20 <MichaelC> plus opportunity for author to tweak output
00:05:55 <MichaelC> jc: maybe we should spec an expected mapping, plus a non-normative roledescription suggestion
00:06:06 <MichaelC> mk: why not use aria-label?
00:06:36 <MichaelC> jc: so platform API can take best advantage
00:06:43 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aria
00:06:45 <MichaelC> don´t want to add junk roles to map 1:1 ARIA
00:07:04 <MichaelC> cs: IE gives video role=group and name=video
00:07:04 <MichaelC> but if you use label, that takes over
00:08:22 <clown> clown has left #aria
00:08:30 <MichaelC> js: we need to pick this up
00:08:31 <jcraig> ISSUE: Continue discussion of @aria-roledescription (custom role descriptions on known role types)
00:08:31 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-636 - Continue discussion of @aria-roledescription (custom role descriptions on known role types).  Please complete additional details at <https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/636/edit>.
00:08:40 <jcraig> jcraig has left #aria
00:08:46 <MichaelC> cs: author configurability of role description may be too much for 1.1
00:09:15 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
00:09:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/01/23-aria-minutes.html MichaelC
00:09:48 <MichaelC> zakim, list attendees
00:09:48 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been +1.541.678.aaaa, Matt_King, Lisa_Seeman, Shane_McCarron, Bryan_Garaventa, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Jon_Gunderson,
00:09:51 <Zakim> ... Janina_Sajka, Joanmarie_Diggs, Alexander_Surkov, David_Bolter, James_Craig, James_Nurthen, Mark_Sadecki, Cynthia_Shelly, Michael_Cooper, David_MacDonald, Jason_White
00:09:56 <Zakim> -PF_F2F
00:10:00 <Zakim> -Matt_King
00:10:02 <Zakim> -Jason_White
00:10:17 <MichaelC> zakim, who is on the phone?
00:10:17 <Zakim> On the phone I see Lisa_Seeman, ??P2
00:10:21 <MichaelC> zakim, drop Lisa
00:10:21 <Zakim> Lisa_Seeman is being disconnected
00:10:22 <Zakim> -Lisa_Seeman
00:10:25 <MichaelC> zakim, drop ??P2
00:10:25 <Zakim> ??P2 is being disconnected
00:10:26 <Zakim> Team_(aria)14:00Z has ended
00:10:26 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.541.678.aaaa, Matt_King, Lisa_Seeman, Shane_McCarron, Bryan_Garaventa, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Jon_Gunderson, Janina_Sajka, Joanmarie_Diggs,
00:10:26 <Zakim> ... Alexander_Surkov, David_Bolter, James_Craig, James_Nurthen, Mark_Sadecki, Cynthia_Shelly, Michael_Cooper, David_MacDonald, Jason_White
00:10:40 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
00:10:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/01/23-aria-minutes.html MichaelC
00:12:08 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make log public
00:12:18 <MichaelC> scribeOptions: final
00:12:24 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
00:12:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/01/23-aria-minutes.html MichaelC
00:13:43 <MichaelC> scribeOptions: -final
00:13:50 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
00:13:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/01/23-aria-minutes.html MichaelC
00:14:44 <MichaelC> zakim, bye
00:14:44 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria
00:14:49 <MichaelC> rrsagent,, bye
00:14:49 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand ', bye', MichaelC.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
00:14:55 <MichaelC> rrsagent, bye
00:14:55 <RRSAgent> I see 20 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/23-aria-actions.rdf :
00:14:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jamesn to track down references to ~"bridging technology" or other less-desirable language; action each editor to remove/rephrase. [1]
00:14:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/23-aria-irc#T17-36-16
00:14:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jcraig to clarify the "bridging" language in #co-evolution to make it clear that ARIA is not a stop-gap technology. It will always be relevant SVG, and it will remain relevant for HTML as long as web developers have *any* reason to not use the native control, including the use to retrofit existing sites or frameworks without completely gutting the implementation. [2]
00:14:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/23-aria-irc#T18-49-17
00:14:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Cynthia meet EO to provide guidance on when and when not to use WAI-ARIA [3]
00:14:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/23-aria-irc#T18-53-10
00:14:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: dmd to write a WCAG technique that address the description for the poster of an HTML5 video [4]
00:14:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/23-aria-irc#T20-41-27
00:14:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: David_MacDonald to create a WCAG technique for poster description [5]
00:14:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/23-aria-irc#T20-44-54
00:14:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: JamesN to create a WCAG technique for poster description [6]
00:14:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/23-aria-irc#T20-54-15
00:14:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jcraig to <change> [7]
00:14:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/23-aria-irc#T21-18-13
00:14:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jcraig to "aria-label" to "label" in #toolbar "Authors MUST supply an aria-label property on each toolbar when the application contains more than one toolbar." [8]
00:14:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/23-aria-irc#T21-24-11
00:14:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jcraig to complete edit from ISSUE-485 [9]
00:14:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/23-aria-irc#T21-26-09
00:14:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jcraig to propose edit for ISSUE-493 to explicitly disallow strings matching "" or "undefined" in this sentence: Content authors MUST provide values for required states and properties. [10]
00:14:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/23-aria-irc#T21-31-18
00:14:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jcraig to patch issue-497 [11]
00:14:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/23-aria-irc#T21-40-14
00:14:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jcraig to patch issue-502 [12]
00:14:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/23-aria-irc#T21-45-10
00:14:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jcraig to patch issue-504, then assign to cooper for the taxonomy doc [13]
00:14:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/23-aria-irc#T21-50-20
00:14:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jcraig to patch issue-508 [14]
00:14:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/23-aria-irc#T21-57-03
00:14:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: rich to Look to see if taxonomy changes will impact test tools [15]
00:14:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/23-aria-irc#T21-59-41
00:14:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jcraig to patch ISSUE-514 (include grid) [16]
00:14:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/23-aria-irc#T22-15-55-1
00:14:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jcraig to patch issue-523 [17]
00:14:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/23-aria-irc#T23-14-46
00:14:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Cynthia define a mapping in the UAIG that covered aria-hidden="false" in all situations - including when a hidden attribute is applied. [18]
00:14:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/23-aria-irc#T23-30-04
00:14:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jcraig to patch issue-544 [19]
00:14:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/23-aria-irc#T23-30-14
00:14:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jcraig to propose an edit ISSUE-545 resolving live region changes to dom vs a11y tree [20]
00:14:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/23-aria-irc#T23-48-07