14:35:11 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #webmob
14:35:11 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/01/22-webmob-irc
14:35:13 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs 306
14:35:13 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #webmob
14:35:15 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WEBMOB
14:35:15 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see MWI_WBMB()10:00AM scheduled to start in 25 minutes
14:35:16 <trackbot> Meeting: Web and Mobile Interest Group Teleconference
14:35:16 <trackbot> Date: 22 January 2014
14:37:06 <schuki> thanks dom!
14:37:39 <schuki> schuki has changed the topic to: WebMob Teleconf: 15:00 UTC TODAY!
14:48:53 <dom> RRSAgent, make log public
14:54:50 <schuki> hi ernesto!
14:58:16 <schuki> http://www.w3.org/wiki/Mobile/Meetings
14:58:44 <kawada> kawada has joined #webmob
14:58:51 <Zakim> MWI_WBMB()10:00AM has now started
14:59:00 <Zakim> +schuki
14:59:19 <schuki> Hi all! To join the meeting please use: Dial: +1-617-761-6200 or sip:zakim@voip.w3.org then conference code 932662 ("WEBMOB")
15:00:08 <dom> Zakim, call dom-home
15:00:08 <Zakim> ok, dom; the call is being made
15:00:08 <jo> jo has joined #webmob
15:00:09 <Zakim> +Dom
15:00:44 <Zakim> -Dom
15:00:54 <dom> Zakim, call dom-home
15:00:54 <schuki> oh dom I couldn't hear you
15:00:54 <Zakim> ok, dom; the call is being made
15:00:55 <Zakim> +Dom
15:01:09 <dom> Zakim, drop dom
15:01:09 <Zakim> Dom is being disconnected
15:01:11 <Zakim> -Dom
15:01:17 <Zakim> -schuki
15:01:18 <Zakim> MWI_WBMB()10:00AM has ended
15:01:18 <Zakim> Attendees were schuki, Dom
15:01:24 <Zakim> MWI_WBMB()10:00AM has now started
15:01:27 <dom> Zakim, call dom-home
15:01:29 <Zakim> ok, dom; the call is being made
15:01:31 <Zakim> +??P2
15:01:43 <Zakim> +??P5
15:01:48 <Zakim> +??P1
15:01:51 <Zakim> +schuki
15:01:52 <jo> zakikm, ??p2 is probably me
15:01:59 <dom> Zakim, call dom-home
15:01:59 <Zakim> ok, dom; the call is being made
15:02:01 <Zakim> +Dom
15:02:08 <jo> zaikm, ??p2 is probably me
15:02:12 <Bin_Hu> Bin_Hu has joined #webmob
15:02:18 <jo> zakim, ??p2 is probably me
15:02:18 <Zakim> +jo?; got it
15:02:21 <Zakim> -Dom
15:02:33 <jo> zakim, mute me
15:02:33 <Zakim> jo? should now be muted
15:02:52 <Zakim> +??P9
15:02:54 <dom> Zakim, ??P9 is me
15:02:54 <Zakim> +dom; got it
15:03:15 <dom> Zakim, who's noisy?
15:03:26 <Zakim> dom, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P5 (44%), schuki (30%)
15:03:36 <dom> Zakim, mute ,,P5
15:03:36 <Zakim> sorry, dom, I do not know which phone connection belongs to ,,P5
15:03:39 <dom> Zakim, mute ??P5
15:03:39 <Zakim> ??P5 should now be muted
15:03:58 <jo> zakim, who is here?
15:03:58 <Zakim> On the phone I see jo? (muted), ??P5 (muted), ??P1, schuki, dom
15:03:59 <Zakim> On IRC I see Bin_Hu, jo, kawada, Zakim, RRSAgent, dom, marcosc, paul___irish, anssik, tobie_, sangwhan__, schuki, ernesto, trackbot
15:04:23 <ernesto> zakim, ??p1 is probably me
15:04:25 <Zakim> +ernesto?; got it
15:06:11 <schuki> TOPIC: Welcome
15:06:43 <dom> scribenick: dom
15:07:23 <dom> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/mid/3739ff7a9ac741afafe99bdf38ff0987@DB3PR04MB108.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com
15:07:27 <dom> Chair: schuki
15:07:28 <Bin_Hu> I cannot dial in 6177616200
15:07:54 <schuki> Bin_Hu: from the US?
15:08:14 <Zakim> +Bin_Hu
15:08:18 <dom> schuki: welcome to the 1st WebMob call in 2014
15:09:15 <dom> ... We'll be discussing our work in the upcoming couple of months
15:09:15 <schuki> http://www.w3.org/wiki/Mobile/Work
15:09:28 <dom> ... I'll be adding new stuff to our wiki work page
15:09:49 <dom> ... work has started on some of the topics, so I'll add information to help guide newcomers
15:10:08 <dom> ... today we'll talk about network info, permissions, offline, payments, and best practices
15:10:15 <dom> ... I'll highlight them on the page
15:10:37 <schuki> https://github.com/w3c-webmob/netinfo
15:10:38 <dom> Topic: Network Information
15:11:00 <dom> Schuki: at the end of 2013, marcos started this github repo for the netinfo api
15:11:11 <dom> ... to capture how native apps use network info to give users choice
15:11:49 <dom> ... the document includes lots of screenshots of existing native and Web apps illustrating choices on when to download/upload or stream
15:12:01 <dom> ... there is a lot of misunderstanding about the need for a netinfo api
15:12:25 <dom> ... this requirements work is to help for the development of a useful API in the WG
15:12:44 <dom> ... There are some people in Mozilla that have started to draft a few different notes on net info
15:12:56 <dom> ... this is helping to enrich the existing work in this space
15:13:09 <dom> ... already some good consequences out of this work
15:13:19 <dom> ... Please take a read of the document
15:13:38 <dom> ... if you see missing or incorrect information, submit issues on the github repo
15:13:50 <dom> ... even open questions are acceptable as issues there
15:14:04 <schuki> q?
15:14:31 <dom> Bin_Hu: there has been discussions of the privacy impact of that API
15:14:37 <dom> ... raised by Nick Doty
15:15:11 <dom> ... with Brian making suggestions how to solve this, e.g. via JavaScript libraries
15:16:23 <dom> Schuki: the best way forward would be to summarize these points to the mailing list
15:16:32 <dom> Bin_Hu: I'll summarize this to the list
15:17:24 <dom> Topic: Permissions
15:17:39 <dom> Schuki: two weeks ago, the W3C TAG was meeting in London
15:17:48 <dom> ... Dom was invited to discuss the issue around permissions
15:17:59 <dom> ... which links back to our discussions during TPAC on the topic
15:18:13 <dom> scribenick: schuki
15:18:34 <schuki> dom: I presented to the TAG 2 weeks ago
15:18:36 <dom> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-mobile/2014Jan/0001.html
15:18:42 <schuki> ... I sent a summary to the mailing list
15:19:40 <schuki> dom: I updated and improved the TPAC presentation on the current state of permissions in browsers
15:19:59 <dom> http://dontcallmedom.github.io/web-permissions-req/matrix.html
15:20:19 <schuki> ... the presentation showed some bad user experience with regards to browser permissions
15:20:34 <schuki> ... I also showed some tests and test results
15:21:11 <schuki> dom: the table shows a lot of variation in permissions across browsers
15:21:19 <schuki> ... this is bad for users and developers
15:22:00 <schuki> dom: the TAG agreed that this was a topic to be paid attention to
15:22:07 <schuki> ... they set some tasks
15:22:45 <schuki> ... Alex Russell has a task to consider this, and Dan Appelquist has a task to communicate with WGs to get them to ask the TAG when working with permissions
15:23:10 <schuki> dom: everyone agreed that we need to consider this topic more
15:23:19 <schuki> ... we talked about what a better model will be
15:23:49 <dom> -> http://www.w3.org/wiki/Mobile/articles#API_Permissions API Permissions
15:24:14 <schuki> dom: as part of my research I did a search for documents ( see link above)
15:24:24 <schuki> ... seems like a lot of research is ongoing in this area
15:24:56 <schuki> dom: I am looking for more poeple to join me on this work
15:25:14 <schuki> dom: in Sys Apps there was some talk on web apps in the market
15:25:24 <schuki> ... there are a large number of questions in permission management
15:25:39 <schuki> ... so there is some work going on in this topic
15:26:04 <schuki> dom: I don't have a detailed work plan atm
15:26:24 <schuki> ... but if people are interested in helping out that would be great!
15:27:30 <dom> q?
15:27:34 <schuki> dom: the important question is how we move from this model which has so many issues to a better one
15:28:35 <schuki> Bin_Hu: we did some work here in WAC, these methods need to be simplified and updated, but this could help
15:28:59 <schuki> ... we may be able to contribute here
15:30:29 <schuki> dom: i think the way to get to a solution would be to dive down into this problem and ask the questions of what needs to be done first
15:32:04 <dom> https://github.com/dontcallmedom/web-permissions-req/
15:32:11 <dom> ScribeNick: dom
15:32:30 <dom> schuki: dom has posted the github link of the work done so far
15:32:52 <dom> ... as dom has pointed out, a good next step would be to understand the questions we need to answer for a permission model
15:33:05 <dom> ... at the bottom of the github page, there is a todo section with ideas on how to help on this
15:33:17 <dom> ... e.g. screenshots on mobile, # of tested features
15:33:33 <dom> ... the next stage after that is identifying questions a permission model need to answer
15:34:02 <dom> ... Dom, let's work together on making this easy to access for others
15:34:13 <dom> ... All, please raise issues on the github repo as you see fit
15:34:25 <dom> Topic: Best Practices
15:34:43 <dom> -> https://github.com/w3c-webmob/mobile_best_practices GitHub Best Practices repo
15:35:10 <dom> Schuki: I've started readying the MWBP document
15:35:15 <dom> s/ready/read/
15:35:30 <dom> ... when I told twitter about this, I got a lot of reaction
15:35:38 <dom> ... some people pointed out it was outdated
15:35:49 <dom> ... I also noted that a lot of it was still very much relevant 8 years later
15:36:03 <dom> ... I moved the document to github with help from jo and tobie and others
15:36:13 <dom> ... we raised a number of issues
15:36:17 <dom> ... got a few pull requests
15:36:26 <schuki> https://github.com/w3c-webmob/mobile_best_practices/issues
15:36:32 <dom> ... we have both simple issues and hard problems
15:36:56 <dom> ... some of them got quite a few comments, e.g. "don't call it 'mobile'"
15:37:31 <dom> ... add issues as you see fit, or even make pull requests with amendments
15:37:47 <dom> ... I've a few additional points I will raise on the repo
15:37:50 <jo> zakim, unmute me
15:37:50 <Zakim> jo? should no longer be muted
15:37:53 <jo> q+
15:37:56 <schuki> q?
15:37:57 <dom> ack jo
15:38:21 <dom> jo: my feeling is that if it's worth updating that document, it should integrate the mobile web apps best practices
15:38:31 <dom> ... hence, we're talking about updating and combining two documents
15:38:41 <dom> schuki: that document also came up on my list
15:38:55 <dom> ... let's add an issue on this
15:39:05 <dom> +1 to jo
15:39:19 <schuki> http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/REC-mwabp-20101214/
15:39:29 <dom> Bin_Hu: we intend to review and read the document
15:39:52 <dom> ... we noticed that others orgs have worked on related topics, e.g. the smart apps guidelines from gsma
15:40:07 <dom> q+ to ask about relationship to WebPlatform
15:40:26 <dom> ... any goal of alignment or reference to related guidelines in the industry?
15:40:46 <dom> schuki: we should definitely have a look into that, we shouldn't duplicate work
15:41:11 <dom> ... marcos made the point that there is so much content on the topic, but it's hard to find a place putting it altogether
15:41:36 <jo> the content of the blog posts that schuki refers to is of variable quality and advisability
15:41:49 <schuki> +1
15:43:19 <jo> +1 to Dom's suggestion to think about what form any initiative of this kind should take
15:44:01 <dom> schuki: the idea of putting this on WPD is interesting
15:44:18 <dom> ... we could start by developing in the repo and then move it to WPD
15:44:54 <jo> before thinking about whether to do this and why before thinking about ow to do it
15:45:38 <jo> s/before thinking/it would be a good idea to decide/
15:45:56 <dom> dom: we should try to understand better the audience and expected outcome of this document
15:46:10 <dom> ... since this will impact significantly the way the document is built
15:46:22 <dom> schuki: I'll add a note to that effect in the repo
15:46:28 <dom> ... clearly we need to think about it early
15:46:33 <Zakim> -jo?
15:46:35 <schuki> https://github.com/w3c-webmob/mobile_best_practices/issues/16
15:46:50 <jo> q+ to suggest that before doing anything at all it might be an idea to see if anyone is going to edit it
15:47:10 <schuki> q?
15:47:10 <dom> q-
15:47:28 <Zakim> +??P2
15:47:31 <dom> ack jo
15:47:31 <Zakim> jo, you wanted to suggest that before doing anything at all it might be an idea to see if anyone is going to edit it
15:48:22 <dom> jo: the group needs to decide if it thinks an update is worthwhile and what for given its available resources
15:48:55 <dom> ... if we feel it is worthwhile, then we should identify someone to act as an editor for the document
15:49:52 <jo> zakim, ??p2 is me
15:49:52 <Zakim> +jo; got it
15:50:21 <dom> schuki: that aspect probably needs to be managed separately of the github repo, will look into it
15:50:38 <dom> ... I'll ask the group how they feel about this
15:51:09 <schuki> thanks jo!
15:51:11 <Zakim> -jo
15:51:16 <dom> Topic: Offline
15:51:23 <dom> schuki: got some updates on this
15:51:59 <dom> ... lots of the work I was planning for us to has been done elsewhere already, so it doesn't sound like we should spend our time on this
15:52:15 <dom> ... there is a meeting this week in SF on a spec for serviceworker
15:52:23 <dom> ... there are some emerging implementations
15:52:41 <dom> ... we should work on developing tests to ensure the technology fulfils its target use cases
15:53:04 <dom> ... marcos is suggesting we should take these use cases and start to do the ground work of testing service worker
15:53:24 <dom> ... I'll try to get the use cases sent the list and create a repo
15:53:25 <dom> q+
15:53:37 <dom> ... this will be code oriented
15:53:49 <schuki> ack dom
15:53:50 <dom> ... we'll provide update as we go, giving feedback
15:54:40 <dom> dom: from what I understand there are some early implementations that marcos pointed us to
15:54:52 <dom> schuki: there were, but they disappeared!
15:55:01 <dom> ... marcos is on the case to get them back on-line
15:55:13 <dom> ... you could otherwise compile firefox with the right options
15:55:25 <dom> ... I'll check back with marcos
15:56:14 <dom> ... people in mozilla have already started implementing and testing it
15:56:39 <schuki> topic: payments
15:56:40 <schuki> http://www.w3.org/2013/10/payments/topics.html
15:57:02 <dom> Schuki: reminder of the upcoming payments workshop (March 24-25)
15:57:16 <dom> ... before the break, we talked about developing use cases for the CG and the workshop
15:57:24 <dom> ... I'm on the program committee for the workshop
15:57:34 <dom> ... there will be a number of highly visible organizations at the workshop
15:57:47 <dom> ... banks, operators, on-line payment providers
15:58:13 <dom> ... if we want to make sure this matches our mobile need, we should bring our use cases
15:58:23 <dom> ... I'll create a repo for this to make it easy to contribute
15:58:35 <dom> ... we can then discuss and review them
15:59:06 <schuki> http://www.w3.org/wiki/Mobile/Work
15:59:11 <dom> Topic: AOB
15:59:24 <dom> schuki: there are a number of other task forces we discussed setting up
15:59:39 <dom> ... with our current broad focus, we probably already have more than enough on our plate
15:59:54 <dom> ... but if anyone wants to manage a new task force, feel free to offer your services on the list :)
16:00:01 <dom> ... but otherwise, we'll focus on these existing topics
16:00:10 <schuki> q?
16:00:30 <dom> Bin_Hu: in the past, the CoreMob CG worked on a mobile profile
16:00:38 <dom> ... is there any plan to continue to work on that profile?
16:00:50 <dom> ... or is it something that the existing task forces will cover?
16:00:55 <schuki> http://www.w3.org/wiki/Mobile/Work
16:01:02 <dom> schuki: sort of yes and sort of not
16:01:18 <dom> ... our first task force in the list is the documentation task force on which I hope to start working soon
16:01:37 <dom> ... in TPAC, we discussed how to move our existing documentation into a more dynamic dashboard
16:01:41 <dom> Zakim, who's noisy?
16:01:49 <dom> ... we'll carry on working on that
16:01:51 <Zakim> dom, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ernesto? (65%)
16:01:55 <dom> Zakim, mute ernesto
16:01:55 <Zakim> ernesto? should now be muted
16:02:12 <dom> ... On a profile per se, we don't have a current task force directly on this
16:02:19 <dom> ... but this could be suggested as a new work item
16:02:42 <dom> ... I'll bring that to the list
16:03:17 <dom> Schuki: thank you for joining the call; I'll follow up on the list, and anyone should feel to ask any question they may have
16:03:23 <dom> ... and contribute on github
16:03:29 <Zakim> -schuki
16:03:31 <Zakim> -dom
16:03:31 <Zakim> -Bin_Hu
16:03:37 <Zakim> -ernesto?
16:03:52 <Zakim> -??P5
16:03:54 <Zakim> MWI_WBMB()10:00AM has ended
16:03:54 <Zakim> Attendees were schuki, Dom, jo?, ernesto?, Bin_Hu, jo
16:03:55 <dom> s/<scribe> ->/<scribe_dom> ->/g
16:04:01 <dom> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:04:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/01/22-webmob-minutes.html dom
16:04:11 <schuki> schuki has changed the topic to: Webmob Group IRC Channel - for meetings see http://www.w3.org/wiki/Mobile/Meetings
16:05:09 <kawada> Zakim, ??P5 was me
16:05:09 <Zakim> I don't understand '??P5 was me', kawada
16:05:27 <marcosc> Zakim, ??P5 is kawada
16:05:27 <Zakim> sorry, marcosc, I do not recognize a party named '??P5'
16:05:47 <kawada> Thank you, marcos!
16:06:18 <marcosc> kawada, it didn't quite work... but we can update the minutes manually if you want to be listed
16:06:52 <kawada> OK, thanks!
16:09:09 <kawada> kawada has left #webmob
18:10:55 <Zakim> Zakim has left #webmob