17:52:32 RRSAgent has joined #ua 17:52:32 logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/01/16-ua-irc 17:52:34 RRSAgent, make logs public 17:52:34 Zakim has joined #ua 17:52:36 Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG 17:52:36 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 8 minutes 17:52:37 Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference 17:52:37 Date: 16 January 2014 17:52:59 rrsagent, set logs public 17:53:08 rrsagent, make minutes 17:53:08 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/01/16-ua-minutes.html allanj 17:53:15 regrets: kelly 17:53:20 chair: jimAllan 17:55:09 agenda+ W3 Resource Priorities paper review http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2014JanMar/0000.html 17:55:10 agenda+ review comments - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-uaag2-comments/2013Dec/ 17:58:50 Greg has joined #ua 18:00:55 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started 18:01:02 +Jeanne 18:01:38 +Jim_Allan 18:01:59 +Greg_Lowney 18:04:43 Jan has joined #ua 18:04:50 zakim, code? 18:04:50 the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), Jan 18:05:24 +[IPcaller] 18:05:46 zakim, [IPcaller] is really Jan 18:05:46 +Jan; got it 18:08:32 KimPatch has joined #ua 18:08:36 +Kim_Patch 18:09:54 zakim, agenda? 18:09:54 I see 2 items remaining on the agenda: 18:09:55 1. W3 Resource Priorities paper review http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2014JanMar/0000.html [from allanj] 18:09:55 2. review comments - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-uaag2-comments/2013Dec/ [from allanj] 18:10:27 zakim, open item 2 18:10:27 agendum 2. "review comments - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-uaag2-comments/2013Dec/" taken up [from allanj] 18:10:39 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-uaag2-comments/2013Dec/0001.html 18:10:50 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-uaag2-comments/2013Dec/0000.html 18:11:03 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-uaag2-comments/2014Jan/0001.html 18:11:25 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-uaag2-comments/2014Jan/0000.html 18:12:48 JA: Starting with this one http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-uaag2-comments/2013Dec/0000.html 18:12:52 topic: UAAG Comments on Text Customization 18:13:02 Scribe: Jan 18:13:54 JB: First comment is: 1.4.2: Problem: Users also need to style hyper links at the element. Solution: Add: "...at least heading input fields and links." 18:14:01 s/JB/JA 18:15:31 current wording: 18:15:33 1.4.2 Text Size, Color and Font (by Element): The user can set all of the following characteristics of visually rendered text content for text element types including at least headings and input fields:(Level AA) 18:16:54 Commenter is suggesting... 18:17:07 So with Wayne's change it would be: 18:17:08 1.4.2 Text Size, Color and Font (by Element): The user can set all of the following characteristics of visually rendered text content for text element types including at least headings, input fields and links: (Level AA) 18:17:09 1.4.2 Text Size, Color and Font (by Element): The user can set all of the following characteristics of visually rendered text content for text element types including at least headings, input fields, and links: (Level AA) * Text size * Text color and background color, choosing from all platform color options * Font family, choosing from all platform fonts 18:17:49 1.4.2 Text Size, Color and Font (by Element): The user can set all of the following characteristics of visually rendered text content for text element types including at least headings, input fields, and links: (Level AA) 18:18:00 JR: OK with this addition 18:18:04 JA: Me too 18:18:11 +1 18:18:13 GL: neutral 18:18:23 KP: me too 18:18:26 +1 18:18:33 JS: Me too 18:18:46 GP: Links are not block level, could be a bit harder 18:19:31 Resolution: All agree to wording 1.4.2 Text Size, Color and Font (by Element): The user can set all of the following characteristics of visually rendered text content for text element types including at least headings, input fields, and links: (Level AA) 18:19:49 Action jeanne: Make edit "1.4.2 Text Size, Color and Font (by Element): The user can set all of the following characteristics of visually rendered text content for text element types including at least headings, input fields, and links: (Level AA)" 18:19:49 Created ACTION-933 - Make edit "1.4.2 text size, color and font (by element): the user can set all of the following characteristics of visually rendered text content for text element types including at least headings, input fields, and links: (level aa)" [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2014-01-23]. 18:20:19 JA: Next issue... 18:20:32 1.4.3: 18:20:33 JA: 1.4.3: Problem: the lengths for character spacing and word spacing appear to be absolutes. This would be wrong. Solution: Add a note. (so you will have Note 1 (as is) and a new Note 2) 18:20:34 Problem: the lengths for character spacing and word spacing appear to be 18:20:35 absolutes. 18:20:37 This would be wrong. 18:20:38 Solution: Add a note. (so you will have Note 1 (as is) and a new Note 2) 18:21:14 Note 2: The lengths for character and word spacing are interpreted the same 18:21:16 as letter and word spacing CSS 2 and up. The length value is added to the 18:21:17 default character and word spacing for the font. 18:22:29 gl: this is getting very specific for our document 18:22:35 GL: Seems very tech specific? 18:22:48 JR: Our wording doesn't seem absolute? 18:22:59 GL: Could he be looking at older version? 18:23:18 JA: We tried not to be absolute 18:24:16 Action-902? 18:24:16 Action-902 -- Jeanne F Spellman to Follow up with proposal on text customization to clarify the units of measure called for in 1.4.3 proposal. -- due 2013-10-10 -- CLOSED 18:24:16 http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/actions/902 18:24:47 JA: We went back and forth 18:25:34 JR: Our wording is VERY specific "Line spacing of at least 1.0, 1.3, 1.5, and 2.0 times the font height" implies that an implementation that did this would fail: 1.0, 1.25, 1.5, and 2.0 times ... 18:25:58 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2013OctDec/0005.html 18:26:33 JA: This is message where Jeanne took an action and did some investigating...led to first note 18:27:08 GL: The thing you linked to didn't have "1.3" in it...where did that come from? 18:27:54 JR: Possible rewrite: Multiple line spacing options up to at least 2.0 times the font height. 18:27:59 links to css document 18:28:17 http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/visudet.html#leading 18:28:18 http://www.w3.org/wiki/CSS/Properties/line-height 18:28:20 http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/text.html#spacing-props 18:28:21 http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/fonts.html#font-styling 18:28:23 http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/fonts.html#font-boldness 18:28:24 http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/text.html#lining-striking-props 18:28:26 http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/text.html#alignment-prop 18:29:08 JR: Possible rewrite: Multiple line spacing options from 1.0 up to at least 2.0 times the font height. 18:29:25 action: jeanne to fix the space after the colon in 1.4.3 and others 18:29:25 Created ACTION-934 - Fix the space after the colon in 1.4.3 and others [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2014-01-23]. 18:29:44 GL: Do a global search on ":(" 18:31:22 GL: Is 2 options enough 18:31:27 JR: With my language yes 18:31:38 JA: Is a user style sheet enough? 18:31:47 s/JA/GL 18:32:00 GL: Even though they are hard for users to use 18:32:16 JA: User style sheets do cover off a lot of our SCs 18:32:24 Jan, would your language also comply if it offered just .5x and 5x? 18:32:43 Greg, yes 18:33:32 Jan, I don't think that would meet the spirit of the SC. 18:33:36 JA: I think we should be speicific about whether user style sheets are always ok to meet these types of SC 18:35:40 JR: Oh...maybe should be base line spacing, not font height 18:36:23 JR: Possible rewrite: Multiple line spacing options from 1.0 up to and including at least 2.0 times the base line spacing 18:38:41 All: Figured out it is font height...but measured...bottom of text line to bottom of next text line. 1.0 would actually be touching? 18:39:40 line-height is CSS specific what about other technologies 18:40:18 GL: Remember also have to address PDF readers etc. 18:40:46 JR: We are really saying we want generous line spacing on the high end with multiple options up to that 18:41:12 this would apply to the other bullets in 1.4.2 18:41:36 need for multiple multipliers without being specific 18:41:36 GL: I could imagine a PDF browser that essentially turned PDF into HTML, so user CSS could be used 18:42:16 JS: Then there is the UI vs some style sheet issue 18:42:52 s/JS/JA 18:43:15  Line spacing of at least 4 steps between 1.0 and 2.0 times the font height 18:44:33 GL: Between can be problematic... 18:44:52 Line spacing of 1.0 and 2.0 times the font height, and at least two steps in between. 18:45:21 Alternatively, Line spacing of at least 4 steps including and between 1.0 and 2.0 times the font height 18:45:52 Line spacing of 1.0 and 2.0 times the font height, and at least two intermediate steps? 18:46:20 +1 18:46:35 +1 18:46:36 +1 18:47:47 +1 18:51:59 http://www.w3schools.com/cssref/tryit.asp?filename=trycss_line-height 18:53:54 JR: We are talking to UA developers here.... 18:54:26 and Adobe, and media player developers (for captions) 18:56:54 JS: I could go and ask Bert (staff CSS person) 18:57:11 GL: Right, as long as he knows we're not just talking about CSS 18:58:07 The key thing is to get language that is not technology-specific. 18:58:14 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leading 18:58:16 action: Jeanne to talk to Bert Bos about phrasing the 1.4 text on line spacing across different technologies. 18:58:16 Created ACTION-935 - Talk to bert bos about phrasing the 1.4 text on line spacing across different technologies. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2014-01-23]. 18:58:54 "Default Leading" might be 0 white pace. 18:59:27 JA: We will wait for Jeanne to come back then we will deal with the rest of Wayne's comments 18:59:35 zakim, open item 1 18:59:35 agendum 1. "W3 Resource Priorities paper review http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2014JanMar/0000.html" taken up [from allanj] 18:59:41 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2014JanMar/0010.html 18:59:49 JA: Jeanne and I met on Monday 19:00:01 JA: We thrashed through minutes from last meeting 19:00:16 JA: To craft document to send to web performance people 19:00:24 JA: We pulled out 8 things 19:00:59 JS: I turned into this email http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2014JanMar/0010.html 19:02:12 JA: I want to do a pass through this...I don't want to mischaracterize people's views 19:02:24 JS: Let's just go through one by one 19:02:43 JS: I misspelled the email subject... 19:02:54 JS: 1) In the code example in 1.2 Optimizing download priority.... 19:03:12 resource priorities document 19:03:14 http://www.w3.org/TR/resource-priorities/ 19:04:20 GL: Remove "..." 19:04:27 JS: That's from them 19:04:40 JA: All agree to 1) 19:05:13 JS: 2) In sections 1.2 and 4.2, please make it clear that text alternatives for lazyload resources should be displayed at initial load and not wait for the lazyload 19:05:31 JS: Long sentence...I will break it into two. 19:05:55 GL: How would this apply to video with captions? 19:07:47 GL: Should you have to download video if it includes captions 19:10:05 scribe: allanj 19:10:29 gl: lazy load is critical in mobile 19:12:33 loading resources is up to the browser. Resource Priorities is SHOULD and could be ignored by implementers 19:12:35 "To avoid flashes of unavailable content while a user is panning or scrolling, the User Agent may internally keep track of a region larger than the Document's viewport and begin downloading the resource when the element's bounding box is within that larger region." 19:16:35 3) In sections 4.2 The lazyload attribute (and 4.3 and 4.4): When the 19:16:35 lazyload attribute is applied to an iframe (for example), will it also 19:16:35 be applied to the child elements in that frame? How would a video in the iframe be handled? Please clarify how @lazyload would be handled in these situations. Similar to comment #2, our concern is that it may not be picked up by screenreaders loading the page. Please keep in mind that screenreaders are also used by sighted people with reading disabilities who are going to want to look at videos 19:16:35 and images. 19:20:43 gl: lazy load should not be an issue for screen readers. 19:21:21 ... they have to wait for the page to totally load before making their off-screen model 19:21:39 kp: in speech there are many timing problems 19:22:11 Screen readers already have to deal with the fact that resources can be delayed for several seconds, even without lazyload, due to serve load, etc. Thus I doubt lazyload will be a problem (unlike postpone). 19:22:14 kp: are we sure that the UA informs the AT that the page is loaded 19:23:12 js: agree with JR if not an accessibilty problem, then don't raise issue. But don't want things implemented without A11Y being thought about. 19:24:25 jr: pages should function similar to using ARIA active regions alerting user that something on the page changed/loaded 19:24:52 discussion of postpone 19:24:57 "User Agent MUST not start downloading the resource associated with the element until either the bounding box of the element is inside the User Agent's interpretation of the Document's viewport or the element has been styled such that its display property is no longer set to none. " 19:26:43 gl: assume UA is following intent. Author has page with 540 images. Author marks all images below a certain point as postpone 19:27:54 js: postpone could be used for layers in a game 19:28:55 js: if you don't use Display: none but use postpone, the images wont load until the images is in the viewport 19:30:05 gl: what does the UA tell the AT when just the non-postponed elements are loaded, or does it say the page is not loaded until the user scrolls to the end of page 19:31:21 gl: postpone make the page dynamic. the UA must work to keep the AT informed. 19:32:24 rrsagent, make minutes 19:32:24 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/01/16-ua-minutes.html allanj 19:38:46 jr: think of a choose your own adventure where only what you choose is relevant, all the other 1000s of links are not necessary 19:38:51 rrsagent, make minutes 19:38:51 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/01/16-ua-minutes.html allanj 19:39:22 -Kim_Patch 19:39:24 -Jan 19:39:24 -Jim_Allan 19:39:26 -Greg_Lowney 19:39:27 -Jeanne 19:39:29 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended 19:39:29 Attendees were Jeanne, Jim_Allan, Greg_Lowney, Jan, Kim_Patch 19:39:52 RRSAgent, make minutes 19:39:52 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/01/16-ua-minutes.html Jan 19:39:58 RRSAgent, set logs public 19:40:05 Zakim, bye 19:40:05 Zakim has left #ua 19:40:10 RRSAgent, bye 19:40:10 I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/16-ua-actions.rdf : 19:40:10 ACTION: jeanne to Make edit "1.4.2 Text Size, Color and Font (by Element): The user can set all of the following characteristics of visually rendered text content for text element types including at least headings, input fields, and links: (Level AA)" [1] 19:40:10 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/16-ua-irc#T18-19-49 19:40:10 ACTION: jeanne to fix the space after the colon in 1.4.3 and others [2] 19:40:10 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/16-ua-irc#T18-29-25 19:40:10 ACTION: Jeanne to talk to Bert Bos about phrasing the 1.4 text on line spacing across different technologies. [3] 19:40:10 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/16-ua-irc#T18-58-16