20:29:34 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #svg
20:29:34 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/01/16-svg-irc
20:29:36 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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20:29:38 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
20:29:38 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see GA_SVGWG(SVG1)3:30PM already started
20:29:39 <trackbot> Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
20:29:39 <trackbot> Date: 16 January 2014
20:30:02 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
20:30:04 <heycam> Zakim, [ is me
20:30:04 <Zakim> +heycam; got it
20:30:08 <heycam> Zakim, who is on the call?
20:30:08 <Zakim> On the phone I see krit, heycam
20:30:49 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
20:30:51 <Zakim> +??P2
20:31:01 <ed> Zakim, [IP is me
20:31:01 <Zakim> +ed; got it
20:31:16 <stakagi> Zakim, ??P2 is me
20:31:16 <Zakim> +stakagi; got it
20:31:20 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
20:31:35 <birtles> Zakim, [ is me
20:31:35 <Zakim> +birtles; got it
20:31:58 <heycam> Chair: Cameron
20:32:05 <heycam> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2014JanMar/0012.html
20:32:58 <heycam> Zakim, who is on the call?
20:32:58 <Zakim> On the phone I see krit, heycam, ed, stakagi, birtles
20:34:35 <Zakim> +cabanier
20:34:53 <birtles> scribenick: birtles
20:34:57 <birtles> scribe: birtles
20:35:05 <birtles> topic: removing animateColor from SVG2
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20:35:18 <birtles> ed: I raised the topic because I recently filed a patch to remove animateColor from blink
20:35:39 <birtles> ... I don't think there's any reason to keep it around in SVG2 any longer since you can do everything animateColor can do with animate anyway
20:35:48 <Zakim> +Tav
20:35:49 <birtles> krit: we kept it just because of legacy reasons
20:36:00 <birtles> ... but we agree that there's no need for it
20:36:22 <birtles> ed: the reason we decided to remove it from blink is that the usage is very low
20:36:43 <birtles> krit: the problem with the usage counters is we don't know how much SVG is used
20:37:00 <Zakim> +Doug_Schepers
20:37:00 <birtles> ... but we deprecated animateColor in SVG 1.1 so I have no problem with removing it from SVG2
20:37:11 <birtles> ... but we will probably keep it around in WebKit, maybe for the short-term
20:37:50 <birtles> ed: so are we ok with removing it from SVG2?
20:38:08 <birtles> shepazu: I guess so
20:38:13 <birtles> ... I understand that it is redundant
20:38:39 <birtles> ... but my only concern is existing content, but there's probably very little content
20:38:50 <birtles> krit: I think we deprecated in 1.1 not 1.1SE right?
20:38:52 <birtles> ed: yes
20:39:01 <birtles> krit: then we can probably get rid of it
20:39:27 <birtles> s/1.1SE not 1.1/
20:39:28 <krit> s/get rid of it/remove it/
20:39:43 <birtles> heycam: what sort of usage numbers did you get?
20:40:17 <birtles> ed: less than 1 usage per week? a lot less than 1% anyway
20:40:32 <birtles> shepazu: but we don't know how that compares to usage of SVG in general
20:40:49 <birtles> ... so it's really guess from intuition
20:41:00 <birtles> ... how much is animate used
20:41:11 <birtles> ed: a lot since libraries use it to test for SMIL support
20:41:16 <birtles> shepazu: how about animateTransform?
20:41:32 <birtles> ... but I think we're going to remove it anyway
20:41:56 <birtles> ed: it's very easy to work around by just aliasing to animate using javascript
20:42:05 <birtles> heycam: have you already landed the patch to remove it?
20:42:17 <birtles> ed: yes
20:42:21 <birtles> shepazu: let's just remove it
20:42:33 <birtles> ... we already deprecated it right?
20:42:40 <birtles> ed: yes
20:43:01 <birtles> shepazu: are we going to leave any mention of it?
20:43:17 <birtles> heycam: I don't think we need to
20:43:34 <birtles> shepazu: but we should mention it somewhere, like the changes appendix
20:43:47 <birtles> heycam: we can mention it there
20:44:01 <birtles> RESOLUTION: We will remove animateColor from SVG2 (and mention it in the changes appendix)
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20:46:40 <krit> Action: erik and brian to figure out who gets the action
20:46:40 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3557 - And brian to figure out who gets the action [on Erik Dahlström - due 2014-01-23].
20:47:12 <birtles> ACTION: Erik to remove animateColor from SVG2
20:47:13 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3558 - Remove animatecolor from svg2 [on Erik Dahlström - due 2014-01-23].
20:47:29 <birtles> topic: Panel session at Graphical Web 2014
20:48:37 <birtles> heycam: I got email from Michael Neutze and David Dailey about updating the w3c page to refer to the Graphical Web
20:48:56 <birtles> ... for this year's conference since we were still pointing to last year's conference
20:49:17 <birtles> ... and they were also asking whether we had plans to meet at the conference and if we want to present a panel session
20:49:26 <birtles> ... so do you want to present a session?
20:49:31 <heycam> http://graphicalweb.org/2014/
20:49:57 <birtles> krit: do you mean a working group session like in previous years?
20:50:02 <birtles> heycam: yes
20:50:10 <birtles> krit: well then, why not?
20:50:30 <birtles> ... we should actually look at who will host the next meetings
20:51:02 <birtles> heycam: we should. For September it's more open since we might not meet out in Winchester
20:51:12 <birtles> ... but for the next one...
20:51:24 <birtles> krit: we (Adobe) are hosting for Seattle but not for the next one
20:52:29 <birtles> (some discussion about arrangements for April)
20:52:58 <birtles> heycam: so can we say we will do a panel session?
20:53:04 <birtles> krit, shepazu: yes
20:53:37 <birtles> heycam: Mozilla may be a host if we don't mind meeting in London at that time
20:53:52 <birtles> shepazu: we could also have an open day where people from the conference can come and meet with people from the WG
20:54:00 <birtles> ... and attend the F2F
20:55:05 <birtles> ... David Storey from Microsoft are organizing a session between CSS and SVG WG meetings, a hacker meetup
20:55:15 <birtles> heycam: on the Tuesday night? Wednesday night?
20:55:25 <birtles> shepazu: yes
20:56:12 <birtles> ... David asked me to present at the little meet-up. Anyone else is also welcome to present
20:56:58 <birtles> heycam: Tues or Wed?
20:57:06 <birtles> shepazu: Wed I think
20:58:31 <birtles> ... you can present about anything SVG/CSS related
20:58:57 <birtles> ... keep it in mind. I'll do a quick SVG accessibility talk
20:59:08 <birtles> ... the theme is "CSS and Web Graphics"
20:59:22 <birtles> ... they'd like a presentation on "What's coming up in SVG2?"
20:59:41 <birtles> ... so if you can point me to any slidedecks on this
21:00:19 <birtles> heycam: I'll try to find my slides from a talk several years ago
21:01:05 <birtles> birtles: I could do the animation demo from SVGOpen if needed
21:01:09 <birtles> topic: Agenda requests for Seattle F2F
21:01:13 <heycam> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/Seattle_2013/Agenda_proposals
21:01:30 <birtles> krit: I'd like to add a few agenda requests
21:01:36 <birtles> heycam: go ahead and add them
21:01:48 <birtles> ... I'd just like to remind people to add items
21:02:29 <birtles> ... it's been quite a short time between F2Fs, maybe there's not so much to add, but if we have remaining time we can use it for spec editing
21:03:01 <birtles> shepazu: I think I will have the demo version of the annotation thing going on the web audio spec so I could possibly demo that
21:03:28 <birtles> topic: percentage on objectBoundingBox relative to the bounding box of the object?
21:03:50 <birtles> krit: so you have things like <mask>, <pattern> etc. and for the content you can switch between objectBoundingBox or userSpaceOnUse
21:04:20 <birtles> ... for objectBoundingBox you can use numbers from 0..1 or percentages but I'm not really sure what percentages actually mean
21:04:33 <birtles> heycam: my naive understanding was 100% = 1 but I guess that's not the case
21:04:41 <birtles> krit: yes, it doesn't seem to be
21:05:07 <birtles> ... I would interpret the spec text as percentages of the viewport but I don't think that is a good idea
21:05:15 <birtles> heycam: I think making them viewport-relative would be confusing
21:05:27 <birtles> krit: I was hoping someone would know what browsers are actually doing?
21:06:05 <birtles> ACTION: Dirk to investigate what browsers actually do for percentage values for objectBoundingBox with pattern, mask etc.
21:06:05 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3559 - Investigate what browsers actually do for percentage values for objectboundingbox with pattern, mask etc. [on Dirk Schulze - due 2014-01-23].
21:06:26 <birtles> krit: I posted this question on the mailing list...
21:06:52 <heycam> http://www.w3.org/mid/7DADDAB2-1EE8-40D5-A697-472ECA7B4078@adobe.com
21:07:39 <birtles> heycam: so this is percentages within the content of the pattern etc.
21:07:52 <birtles> ... and it says they get resolved against the viewport
21:08:06 <birtles> ... and objectBoundingBox doesn't establish a new viewport right?
21:08:21 <birtles> krit: no they don't, but they can
21:09:34 <birtles> heycam: from you email it looks like something should change
21:09:47 <birtles> s/you email/your email/
21:10:08 <birtles> ... does anyone else have an opinion about whether it is a good idea that percentages apply against the viewport if we defined what that is?
21:10:28 <birtles> ... and which viewport would that be?
21:10:36 <birtles> krit: that's the next item on the agenda
21:11:20 <birtles> shepazu: should we deprecate symbol?
21:11:37 <birtles> Tav: it's implemented and used in maps etc.
21:11:46 <birtles> krit: it's not implemented correctly thought
21:12:07 <birtles> shepazu: <symbol> is actually useless
21:12:16 <birtles> krit: it has an implicit visibility:hidden
21:12:22 <birtles> shepazu: but you don't need it
21:12:33 <birtles> heycam: does <symbol> have the same sizing behavior as <svg>?
21:12:38 <birtles> ??: yes
21:12:57 <birtles> krit: Illustrator exports <symbol> so deprecate ok, but not removing
21:13:09 <birtles> ... we could add a note saying authors don't need to use it
21:13:23 <birtles> shepazu: I suggest we define it in terms of <svg>
21:13:33 <birtles> ... just sugar for <svg>
21:13:44 <birtles> heycam: I wonder if there is scope for improving the functionality of <symbol>
21:14:02 <birtles> ... if there are use cases surrounding re-using graphics
21:14:15 <birtles> shepazu: let's add that to an agenda sometime
21:14:27 <birtles> heycam: please it add it to the F2F agenda
21:14:42 <birtles> topic: Which viewport to use when SVG resource (<pattern>, <mask>, ...) and affected element are in two different viewports
21:15:03 <birtles> krit: so it is quite clear that in these cases that viewport is that of the referencing element
21:15:07 <birtles> ... according to the spec
21:15:17 <birtles> ... but none of the browsers implementations do that
21:15:50 <birtles> ... the only implementations that do that are Opera (Presto), Inkscape and Batik
21:15:57 <birtles> heycam: what is the incorrect behaviour?
21:16:06 <birtles> krit: if you have a path element in one viewport and a pattern in the other
21:16:20 <birtles> ... the pattern should use the viewport of the path element for resolving sizes like percentages
21:16:32 <birtles> ... but browsers take the viewport of the pattern (or mask etc.) element instead
21:16:54 <birtles> ... which doesn't really make sense but that's what browsers do: IE, Chrome, Firefox, Opera
21:17:45 <birtles> heycam: I suspect what the spec says may be more useful
21:18:30 <birtles> krit: it might be useful
21:18:55 <birtles> ... but reality is that none of the browsers are following the spec but are still interoperable
21:19:51 <birtles> ... the browsers are aware of the bug (or at least Robert Longson identified it in Firefox)
21:19:57 <krit> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=866655
21:20:27 <birtles> ... it is also known in WebKit
21:20:34 <birtles> ... but it was too difficult to fix it
21:20:40 <birtles> ... not worth the effort
21:20:51 <birtles> heycam: so are you suggesting we just spec what the browsers are currently doing?
21:21:17 <birtles> Tav: I don't agree. If it's more useful to do it as currently specced then we should do that
21:21:27 <birtles> heycam: yeah, I think I agree
21:21:54 <birtles> krit: from the specification point of view it doesn't matter since we have at least two implementations of each alternative
21:22:23 <birtles> ... if we keep the current spec, it might take sometime before browsers come into line
21:22:34 <birtles> heycam: we could add tests to the suite for this
21:23:02 <birtles> krit: I can do that
21:23:19 <birtles> heycam: if you can construct an example where it is actually useful, that would help
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21:23:39 <birtles> krit: but when are percentages resolved relative to the viewport ever useful?
21:24:11 <birtles> heycam: if you have a grid pattern and shapes that should be aligned with the grid pattern?
21:24:21 <birtles> krit: I think you would use absolute values in this case
21:24:33 <birtles> ... it's an edge case
21:25:09 <Zakim> +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
21:25:16 <birtles> ACTION: Dirk to create a test case for the test suite covering percentage units resolved against the viewport of the referencing element
21:25:16 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3560 - Create a test case for the test suite covering percentage units resolved against the viewport of the referencing element [on Dirk Schulze - due 2014-01-23].
21:25:51 <krit> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Agenda
21:25:58 <birtles> topic: Background reference boxes in SVG
21:26:20 <birtles> krit: What affect has a reference box (padding-box, content-box, border-box, margin-box) to a basic shape in SVG i.e. clip-path: circle() margin-box?
21:26:28 <birtles> ... HTML has the concept of a content box
21:26:35 <birtles> ... what we would call the object bounding box
21:26:43 <birtles> ... then it has a padding box which we don't have in SVG
21:26:53 <birtles> ... then border box and margin box neither of which we have in SVG
21:27:03 <birtles> ... we do have stroke however (similar to border box)
21:27:18 <birtles> Tav: I had to look at this with regards to text wrapping
21:27:29 <birtles> ... and in SVG I think we need separate values
21:27:40 <birtles> krit: I'd rather avoid adding extra keywords
21:27:50 <birtles> Tav: I think that's confusing from an author's point of view
21:28:02 <birtles> krit: in any case we need to define what these keywords mean
21:28:18 <birtles> Tav: there's the viewport, bounding box (fill + stroke versions)
21:28:55 <birtles> heycam: these keywords change how the values in the property get interpreted
21:29:24 <birtles> ... so if you use one of these basic-shape functions in the value these keywords change how they get interpreted
21:29:43 <birtles> ... I think it will be common that people will want to do things relative to the stroke bounding box of the shapes
21:30:18 <birtles> ... so if we were to line it up with these keywords then border-box seems like a possible candidate but I think border-box has a very specific meaning
21:30:53 <Zakim> -Tav
21:31:48 <birtles> krit: anyway I just wanted to introduce the issue, we can continue on the mailing list
21:32:03 <Tav> I got cut off and the conference is now restricted....
21:32:50 <birtles> heycam: no telcon next week since some people will be travelling by then
21:33:00 <birtles> ... next time we meet is the F2F in Seattle
21:33:16 <birtles> ... if you have outstanding issues on the mailing list, please add them to the agenda for the F2F
21:35:06 <birtles> RRSAgent, make minutes
21:35:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/01/16-svg-minutes.html birtles
21:35:16 <Zakim> -heycam
21:35:35 <Zakim> -ed
21:35:36 <Zakim> -stakagi
21:35:36 <Zakim> -cabanier
21:35:37 <Zakim> -Rich_Schwerdtfeger
21:35:37 <Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
21:35:38 <Zakim> -birtles
21:35:38 <Zakim> -krit
21:35:40 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG(SVG1)3:30PM has ended
21:35:40 <Zakim> Attendees were krit, [IPcaller], heycam, ed, stakagi, birtles, cabanier, Tav, Doug_Schepers, Rich_Schwerdtfeger
21:38:10 <birtles> hmm... where is the text version of the minutes again?
21:40:16 <birtles> RRSAgent, where are the text minutes?
21:40:16 <RRSAgent> I'm logging.  Sorry, nothing found for 'where are the text minutes'
21:40:35 <birtles> RRSAgent, please?
21:40:35 <RRSAgent> I'm logging.  Sorry, nothing found for 'please'
21:42:08 <birtles> RRSAgent, help
21:42:43 <birtles> RRSAgent, bookmark
21:42:43 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2014/01/16-svg-irc#T21-42-43
21:45:32 <birtles> I give up... will send the minutes later
22:29:50 <heycam> birtles, take the minutes URL and append ",text"
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23:10:30 <birtles> heycam: cheers, I was trying ".text", "?text" etc.
23:11:12 <heycam> :)
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