IRC log of svg on 2014-01-16

Timestamps are in UTC.

20:29:34 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
20:29:36 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
20:29:36 [Zakim]
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Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
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ok, trackbot, I see GA_SVGWG(SVG1)3:30PM already started
20:29:39 [trackbot]
Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
20:29:39 [trackbot]
Date: 16 January 2014
20:30:02 [Zakim]
20:30:04 [heycam]
Zakim, [ is me
20:30:04 [Zakim]
+heycam; got it
20:30:08 [heycam]
Zakim, who is on the call?
20:30:08 [Zakim]
On the phone I see krit, heycam
20:30:49 [Zakim]
20:30:51 [Zakim]
20:31:01 [ed]
Zakim, [IP is me
20:31:01 [Zakim]
+ed; got it
20:31:16 [stakagi]
Zakim, ??P2 is me
20:31:16 [Zakim]
+stakagi; got it
20:31:20 [Zakim]
20:31:35 [birtles]
Zakim, [ is me
20:31:35 [Zakim]
+birtles; got it
20:31:58 [heycam]
Chair: Cameron
20:32:05 [heycam]
20:32:58 [heycam]
Zakim, who is on the call?
20:32:58 [Zakim]
On the phone I see krit, heycam, ed, stakagi, birtles
20:34:35 [Zakim]
20:34:53 [birtles]
scribenick: birtles
20:34:57 [birtles]
scribe: birtles
20:35:05 [birtles]
topic: removing animateColor from SVG2
20:35:12 [stakagi]
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20:35:18 [birtles]
ed: I raised the topic because I recently filed a patch to remove animateColor from blink
20:35:39 [birtles]
... I don't think there's any reason to keep it around in SVG2 any longer since you can do everything animateColor can do with animate anyway
20:35:48 [Zakim]
20:35:49 [birtles]
krit: we kept it just because of legacy reasons
20:36:00 [birtles]
... but we agree that there's no need for it
20:36:22 [birtles]
ed: the reason we decided to remove it from blink is that the usage is very low
20:36:43 [birtles]
krit: the problem with the usage counters is we don't know how much SVG is used
20:37:00 [Zakim]
20:37:00 [birtles]
... but we deprecated animateColor in SVG 1.1 so I have no problem with removing it from SVG2
20:37:11 [birtles]
... but we will probably keep it around in WebKit, maybe for the short-term
20:37:50 [birtles]
ed: so are we ok with removing it from SVG2?
20:38:08 [birtles]
shepazu: I guess so
20:38:13 [birtles]
... I understand that it is redundant
20:38:39 [birtles]
... but my only concern is existing content, but there's probably very little content
20:38:50 [birtles]
krit: I think we deprecated in 1.1 not 1.1SE right?
20:38:52 [birtles]
ed: yes
20:39:01 [birtles]
krit: then we can probably get rid of it
20:39:27 [birtles]
s/1.1SE not 1.1/
20:39:28 [krit]
s/get rid of it/remove it/
20:39:43 [birtles]
heycam: what sort of usage numbers did you get?
20:40:17 [birtles]
ed: less than 1 usage per week? a lot less than 1% anyway
20:40:32 [birtles]
shepazu: but we don't know how that compares to usage of SVG in general
20:40:49 [birtles]
... so it's really guess from intuition
20:41:00 [birtles]
... how much is animate used
20:41:11 [birtles]
ed: a lot since libraries use it to test for SMIL support
20:41:16 [birtles]
shepazu: how about animateTransform?
20:41:32 [birtles]
... but I think we're going to remove it anyway
20:41:56 [birtles]
ed: it's very easy to work around by just aliasing to animate using javascript
20:42:05 [birtles]
heycam: have you already landed the patch to remove it?
20:42:17 [birtles]
ed: yes
20:42:21 [birtles]
shepazu: let's just remove it
20:42:33 [birtles]
... we already deprecated it right?
20:42:40 [birtles]
ed: yes
20:43:01 [birtles]
shepazu: are we going to leave any mention of it?
20:43:17 [birtles]
heycam: I don't think we need to
20:43:34 [birtles]
shepazu: but we should mention it somewhere, like the changes appendix
20:43:47 [birtles]
heycam: we can mention it there
20:44:01 [birtles]
RESOLUTION: We will remove animateColor from SVG2 (and mention it in the changes appendix)
20:45:52 [glenn]
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20:46:40 [krit]
Action: erik and brian to figure out who gets the action
20:46:40 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-3557 - And brian to figure out who gets the action [on Erik Dahlström - due 2014-01-23].
20:47:12 [birtles]
ACTION: Erik to remove animateColor from SVG2
20:47:13 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-3558 - Remove animatecolor from svg2 [on Erik Dahlström - due 2014-01-23].
20:47:29 [birtles]
topic: Panel session at Graphical Web 2014
20:48:37 [birtles]
heycam: I got email from Michael Neutze and David Dailey about updating the w3c page to refer to the Graphical Web
20:48:56 [birtles]
... for this year's conference since we were still pointing to last year's conference
20:49:17 [birtles]
... and they were also asking whether we had plans to meet at the conference and if we want to present a panel session
20:49:26 [birtles]
... so do you want to present a session?
20:49:31 [heycam]
20:49:57 [birtles]
krit: do you mean a working group session like in previous years?
20:50:02 [birtles]
heycam: yes
20:50:10 [birtles]
krit: well then, why not?
20:50:30 [birtles]
... we should actually look at who will host the next meetings
20:51:02 [birtles]
heycam: we should. For September it's more open since we might not meet out in Winchester
20:51:12 [birtles]
... but for the next one...
20:51:24 [birtles]
krit: we (Adobe) are hosting for Seattle but not for the next one
20:52:29 [birtles]
(some discussion about arrangements for April)
20:52:58 [birtles]
heycam: so can we say we will do a panel session?
20:53:04 [birtles]
krit, shepazu: yes
20:53:37 [birtles]
heycam: Mozilla may be a host if we don't mind meeting in London at that time
20:53:52 [birtles]
shepazu: we could also have an open day where people from the conference can come and meet with people from the WG
20:54:00 [birtles]
... and attend the F2F
20:55:05 [birtles]
... David Storey from Microsoft are organizing a session between CSS and SVG WG meetings, a hacker meetup
20:55:15 [birtles]
heycam: on the Tuesday night? Wednesday night?
20:55:25 [birtles]
shepazu: yes
20:56:12 [birtles]
... David asked me to present at the little meet-up. Anyone else is also welcome to present
20:56:58 [birtles]
heycam: Tues or Wed?
20:57:06 [birtles]
shepazu: Wed I think
20:58:31 [birtles]
... you can present about anything SVG/CSS related
20:58:57 [birtles]
... keep it in mind. I'll do a quick SVG accessibility talk
20:59:08 [birtles]
... the theme is "CSS and Web Graphics"
20:59:22 [birtles]
... they'd like a presentation on "What's coming up in SVG2?"
20:59:41 [birtles]
... so if you can point me to any slidedecks on this
21:00:19 [birtles]
heycam: I'll try to find my slides from a talk several years ago
21:01:05 [birtles]
birtles: I could do the animation demo from SVGOpen if needed
21:01:09 [birtles]
topic: Agenda requests for Seattle F2F
21:01:13 [heycam]
21:01:30 [birtles]
krit: I'd like to add a few agenda requests
21:01:36 [birtles]
heycam: go ahead and add them
21:01:48 [birtles]
... I'd just like to remind people to add items
21:02:29 [birtles]
... it's been quite a short time between F2Fs, maybe there's not so much to add, but if we have remaining time we can use it for spec editing
21:03:01 [birtles]
shepazu: I think I will have the demo version of the annotation thing going on the web audio spec so I could possibly demo that
21:03:28 [birtles]
topic: percentage on objectBoundingBox relative to the bounding box of the object?
21:03:50 [birtles]
krit: so you have things like <mask>, <pattern> etc. and for the content you can switch between objectBoundingBox or userSpaceOnUse
21:04:20 [birtles]
... for objectBoundingBox you can use numbers from 0..1 or percentages but I'm not really sure what percentages actually mean
21:04:33 [birtles]
heycam: my naive understanding was 100% = 1 but I guess that's not the case
21:04:41 [birtles]
krit: yes, it doesn't seem to be
21:05:07 [birtles]
... I would interpret the spec text as percentages of the viewport but I don't think that is a good idea
21:05:15 [birtles]
heycam: I think making them viewport-relative would be confusing
21:05:27 [birtles]
krit: I was hoping someone would know what browsers are actually doing?
21:06:05 [birtles]
ACTION: Dirk to investigate what browsers actually do for percentage values for objectBoundingBox with pattern, mask etc.
21:06:05 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-3559 - Investigate what browsers actually do for percentage values for objectboundingbox with pattern, mask etc. [on Dirk Schulze - due 2014-01-23].
21:06:26 [birtles]
krit: I posted this question on the mailing list...
21:06:52 [heycam]
21:07:39 [birtles]
heycam: so this is percentages within the content of the pattern etc.
21:07:52 [birtles]
... and it says they get resolved against the viewport
21:08:06 [birtles]
... and objectBoundingBox doesn't establish a new viewport right?
21:08:21 [birtles]
krit: no they don't, but they can
21:09:34 [birtles]
heycam: from you email it looks like something should change
21:09:47 [birtles]
s/you email/your email/
21:10:08 [birtles]
... does anyone else have an opinion about whether it is a good idea that percentages apply against the viewport if we defined what that is?
21:10:28 [birtles]
... and which viewport would that be?
21:10:36 [birtles]
krit: that's the next item on the agenda
21:11:20 [birtles]
shepazu: should we deprecate symbol?
21:11:37 [birtles]
Tav: it's implemented and used in maps etc.
21:11:46 [birtles]
krit: it's not implemented correctly thought
21:12:07 [birtles]
shepazu: <symbol> is actually useless
21:12:16 [birtles]
krit: it has an implicit visibility:hidden
21:12:22 [birtles]
shepazu: but you don't need it
21:12:33 [birtles]
heycam: does <symbol> have the same sizing behavior as <svg>?
21:12:38 [birtles]
??: yes
21:12:57 [birtles]
krit: Illustrator exports <symbol> so deprecate ok, but not removing
21:13:09 [birtles]
... we could add a note saying authors don't need to use it
21:13:23 [birtles]
shepazu: I suggest we define it in terms of <svg>
21:13:33 [birtles]
... just sugar for <svg>
21:13:44 [birtles]
heycam: I wonder if there is scope for improving the functionality of <symbol>
21:14:02 [birtles]
... if there are use cases surrounding re-using graphics
21:14:15 [birtles]
shepazu: let's add that to an agenda sometime
21:14:27 [birtles]
heycam: please it add it to the F2F agenda
21:14:42 [birtles]
topic: Which viewport to use when SVG resource (<pattern>, <mask>, ...) and affected element are in two different viewports
21:15:03 [birtles]
krit: so it is quite clear that in these cases that viewport is that of the referencing element
21:15:07 [birtles]
... according to the spec
21:15:17 [birtles]
... but none of the browsers implementations do that
21:15:50 [birtles]
... the only implementations that do that are Opera (Presto), Inkscape and Batik
21:15:57 [birtles]
heycam: what is the incorrect behaviour?
21:16:06 [birtles]
krit: if you have a path element in one viewport and a pattern in the other
21:16:20 [birtles]
... the pattern should use the viewport of the path element for resolving sizes like percentages
21:16:32 [birtles]
... but browsers take the viewport of the pattern (or mask etc.) element instead
21:16:54 [birtles]
... which doesn't really make sense but that's what browsers do: IE, Chrome, Firefox, Opera
21:17:45 [birtles]
heycam: I suspect what the spec says may be more useful
21:18:30 [birtles]
krit: it might be useful
21:18:55 [birtles]
... but reality is that none of the browsers are following the spec but are still interoperable
21:19:51 [birtles]
... the browsers are aware of the bug (or at least Robert Longson identified it in Firefox)
21:19:57 [krit]
21:20:27 [birtles]
... it is also known in WebKit
21:20:34 [birtles]
... but it was too difficult to fix it
21:20:40 [birtles]
... not worth the effort
21:20:51 [birtles]
heycam: so are you suggesting we just spec what the browsers are currently doing?
21:21:17 [birtles]
Tav: I don't agree. If it's more useful to do it as currently specced then we should do that
21:21:27 [birtles]
heycam: yeah, I think I agree
21:21:54 [birtles]
krit: from the specification point of view it doesn't matter since we have at least two implementations of each alternative
21:22:23 [birtles]
... if we keep the current spec, it might take sometime before browsers come into line
21:22:34 [birtles]
heycam: we could add tests to the suite for this
21:23:02 [birtles]
krit: I can do that
21:23:19 [birtles]
heycam: if you can construct an example where it is actually useful, that would help
21:23:34 [richardschwerdtfeger]
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21:23:39 [birtles]
krit: but when are percentages resolved relative to the viewport ever useful?
21:24:11 [birtles]
heycam: if you have a grid pattern and shapes that should be aligned with the grid pattern?
21:24:21 [birtles]
krit: I think you would use absolute values in this case
21:24:33 [birtles]
... it's an edge case
21:25:09 [Zakim]
21:25:16 [birtles]
ACTION: Dirk to create a test case for the test suite covering percentage units resolved against the viewport of the referencing element
21:25:16 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-3560 - Create a test case for the test suite covering percentage units resolved against the viewport of the referencing element [on Dirk Schulze - due 2014-01-23].
21:25:51 [krit]
21:25:58 [birtles]
topic: Background reference boxes in SVG
21:26:20 [birtles]
krit: What affect has a reference box (padding-box, content-box, border-box, margin-box) to a basic shape in SVG i.e. clip-path: circle() margin-box?
21:26:28 [birtles]
... HTML has the concept of a content box
21:26:35 [birtles]
... what we would call the object bounding box
21:26:43 [birtles]
... then it has a padding box which we don't have in SVG
21:26:53 [birtles]
... then border box and margin box neither of which we have in SVG
21:27:03 [birtles]
... we do have stroke however (similar to border box)
21:27:18 [birtles]
Tav: I had to look at this with regards to text wrapping
21:27:29 [birtles]
... and in SVG I think we need separate values
21:27:40 [birtles]
krit: I'd rather avoid adding extra keywords
21:27:50 [birtles]
Tav: I think that's confusing from an author's point of view
21:28:02 [birtles]
krit: in any case we need to define what these keywords mean
21:28:18 [birtles]
Tav: there's the viewport, bounding box (fill + stroke versions)
21:28:55 [birtles]
heycam: these keywords change how the values in the property get interpreted
21:29:24 [birtles]
... so if you use one of these basic-shape functions in the value these keywords change how they get interpreted
21:29:43 [birtles]
... I think it will be common that people will want to do things relative to the stroke bounding box of the shapes
21:30:18 [birtles]
... so if we were to line it up with these keywords then border-box seems like a possible candidate but I think border-box has a very specific meaning
21:30:53 [Zakim]
21:31:48 [birtles]
krit: anyway I just wanted to introduce the issue, we can continue on the mailing list
21:32:03 [Tav]
I got cut off and the conference is now restricted....
21:32:50 [birtles]
heycam: no telcon next week since some people will be travelling by then
21:33:00 [birtles]
... next time we meet is the F2F in Seattle
21:33:16 [birtles]
... if you have outstanding issues on the mailing list, please add them to the agenda for the F2F
21:35:06 [birtles]
RRSAgent, make minutes
21:35:06 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate birtles
21:35:16 [Zakim]
21:35:35 [Zakim]
21:35:36 [Zakim]
21:35:36 [Zakim]
21:35:37 [Zakim]
21:35:37 [Zakim]
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21:35:38 [Zakim]
21:35:40 [Zakim]
GA_SVGWG(SVG1)3:30PM has ended
21:35:40 [Zakim]
Attendees were krit, [IPcaller], heycam, ed, stakagi, birtles, cabanier, Tav, Doug_Schepers, Rich_Schwerdtfeger
21:38:10 [birtles]
hmm... where is the text version of the minutes again?
21:40:16 [birtles]
RRSAgent, where are the text minutes?
21:40:16 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. Sorry, nothing found for 'where are the text minutes'
21:40:35 [birtles]
RRSAgent, please?
21:40:35 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. Sorry, nothing found for 'please'
21:42:08 [birtles]
RRSAgent, help
21:42:43 [birtles]
RRSAgent, bookmark
21:42:43 [RRSAgent]
21:45:32 [birtles]
I give up... will send the minutes later
22:29:50 [heycam]
birtles, take the minutes URL and append ",text"
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23:10:30 [birtles]
heycam: cheers, I was trying ".text", "?text" etc.
23:11:12 [heycam]
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