19:59:01 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aapi
19:59:01 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/01/14-aapi-irc
19:59:03 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
19:59:03 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aapi
19:59:05 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
19:59:05 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(AAPI)3:00PM scheduled to start in 1 minute
19:59:06 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
19:59:06 <trackbot> Date: 14 January 2014
19:59:24 <bgaraventa1979> bgaraventa1979 has joined #aapi
20:00:14 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(AAPI)3:00PM has now started
20:00:21 <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
20:00:51 <davidb> Zakim, Mozilla is verytired_David_Bolter
20:00:51 <Zakim> +verytired_David_Bolter; got it
20:00:56 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
20:01:05 <clown> zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer
20:01:05 <Zakim> +Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it
20:01:14 <clown> zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer
20:01:14 <Zakim> ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer
20:01:35 <clown> chair:  Joseph_Scheuhammer
20:01:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/01/14-aapi-minutes.html clown
20:01:55 <Zakim> + +1.650.773.aaaa
20:02:39 <bgaraventa1979> Bryan Garaventa
20:02:47 <clown> zakim, aaaa has Bryan_Garaventa
20:02:47 <Zakim> +Bryan_Garaventa; got it
20:08:16 <clown> agenda:  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2014Jan/0005.html
20:08:33 <Zakim> +??P5
20:08:42 <MichaelC> zakim, ??P5 is Michael_Cooper
20:08:42 <Zakim> +Michael_Cooper; got it
20:08:43 <cyns> cyns has joined #aapi
20:08:46 <clown> Update re: PF decision HTMl5 @hidden plus aria-hidden='false' (https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18574)
20:08:46 <clown> 
20:09:00 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1320:  Consider implementing above using "offscreen" in AAPI.
20:09:16 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
20:09:21 <clown> agenda+ Agenda for next week's face-to-face: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/meetings/2014-01-ftf#agenda
20:09:29 <cyns> zakim, Microsoft has me
20:09:29 <Zakim> +cyns; got it
20:10:02 <MichaelC> agenda?
20:10:38 <MichaelC> http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot.html
20:11:05 <clown> scribenick:  clown
20:11:27 <clown> zakim, next item
20:11:27 <Zakim> agendum 1. "ACTION-1320:  Consider implementing above using "offscreen" in AAPI." taken up [from clown]
20:11:53 <clown> zakim, take up item two
20:11:53 <Zakim> 'two' does not match any agenda item, clown
20:12:01 <clown> zakim, take up item 2
20:12:01 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Agenda for next week's face-to-face: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/meetings/2014-01-ftf#agenda" taken up [from clown]
20:12:29 <clown> agenda+ Update re: PF decision HTMl5 @hidden plus aria-hidden='false'
20:12:29 <clown> (https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18574)
20:12:34 <clown> zakim, take up item 3
20:12:34 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Update re: PF decision HTMl5 @hidden plus aria-hidden='false'" taken up [from clown]
20:12:54 <clown> JS:  Mostly for Cynthia's benefit.
20:13:19 <clown> JS: We discussed the relationship between aria-hidden and HTML5 hidden attributes
20:13:42 <clown> JS See bugzilla: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18574
20:13:53 <clown> JS:  @hidden should have a weak mapping to aria-hidden=true
20:14:08 <clown> JS:  It was decided that there is a weak mapping.
20:14:17 <MichaelC> zakim, I am Michael
20:14:17 <Zakim> ok, MichaelC, I now associate you with Michael_Cooper
20:14:19 <MichaelC> zakim, mute
20:14:19 <Zakim> I don't understand 'mute', MichaelC
20:14:21 <MichaelC> zakim, mute me
20:14:21 <Zakim> Michael_Cooper should now be muted
20:14:30 <clown> JS: related outcome is this construct:
20:14:43 <clown> <div hidden aria-hidden="false">
20:15:00 <clown> JS:  That means it is not visible, but is exposed at the a11y API level.
20:15:27 <clown> a11ybroken.dequecloud.com/
20:16:11 <clown> CS:  People shouldn't be adding things to the a11y API.
20:16:17 <clown> CS:  I would call this a bad practice.
20:16:29 <clown> CS:  It's valid HTML, but is open to discussion.
20:16:47 <clown> JS:  Does Microsoft support this?
20:17:08 <clown> CS:  Because it works in IE doesn't mean we think it is a good technique.
20:17:24 <clown> CS:  This is an author error.
20:17:40 <clown> http://www.html5accessibility.com/tests/hidden2013.html
20:18:49 <clown> CS:  I would caution authors against doing that.
20:18:58 <clown> CS:  Unless there is a really good reason to do that.
20:19:38 <clown> JS:  It functions the same way as offscreen content: not seen, but spoken by a screen reader.
20:19:51 <clown> CS:  I think that offscreen is a bad idea as well.
20:20:05 <clown> CS:  It causes problem in the text only version.
20:20:23 <clown> CS:  Also, the main stream tester doesn't see it and it isn't tested.
20:21:01 <clown> BG:  In general I agree that offscreen text is a bad idea, but sometimes it is very helpful.
20:22:35 <clown> BG:  A aria table with editable grid cells, sometimes a string.
20:22:52 <cyns> It causes the same problem as the old 'text only' pages.  Adding a separate UI for screen-readers that is not visible to mainstream developers and testers runs the risk of that UI not being kept up to date, tested regularly.  Also for it to break in production without anyone noticing
20:23:08 <clown> BG:  the only way to communicate to an SR user in a cross platform  way was to use offscreen text.
20:23:23 <cyns> That's true of both offscreen and aria-hidden
20:23:49 <clown> BG:  Don't the html5 hidden and aria-hidden=false cancel each other.
20:23:53 <cyns> It should be a last resort technique, but many developers go to it too quickly.
20:24:22 <clown> JS:  So, the hidden attribute means it's not rendered on screen and not seen, but the aria-hidden=false means it is nonethelss exposed to the a11y PAI.
20:24:29 <clown> s/PAI/API
20:25:11 <clown> JS:  I think this changes the meaning of aria-hidden to something like "expose/don't expose" at a11y api level.
20:25:31 <cyns> Issue 2:  <div hidden aria-hidden=false style='display:none'> each of these methods of hiding things from screen readers is fine on its own, and I'm ok with all of them existing.  Using more than one on the same element is likely to introduce bugs, and authors should be cautioned against doing so.
20:25:33 <clown> JS:  the original meaning had something about "perceivable" in it.
20:26:42 <clown> CS:  the original specification of hidden was that it was display:none.
20:27:21 <clown> JS:  But mozilla requested a fuller specification of this technique so they can think about it, and respond.
20:27:35 <clown> CS:  I would like to see the same in order to respond.
20:28:00 <clown> DB:  I'm still with Matt with the idea of getting a new attribute for this kind of thing.
20:28:42 <clown> JS:  agreed that there is a weak mapping.  There never was a strong mapping.
20:28:54 <clown> CS:  I'm fine with that.  I'm not sure about the implications.
20:29:08 <clown> DB:  I agree.  For best practices, this should be a fallback.
20:29:56 <Zakim> +Cooper
20:30:09 <Zakim> -Michael_Cooper
20:30:58 <clown> zakim, take up agenda 1
20:30:58 <Zakim> agendum 1. "ACTION-1320:  Consider implementing above using "offscreen" in AAPI." taken up [from clown]
20:31:04 <clown> action-1320?
20:31:04 <trackbot> action-1320 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Consider mapping the "offscreen" api properties in the situation of aria-hidden="false" on non-rendered elements. -- due 2013-12-23 -- OPEN
20:31:04 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1320
20:31:41 <clown> JS:  if we go forward with above construct, how do we map it to a11y apis.
20:31:52 <clown> JS:  I suggested looking into the offscreen properties.
20:32:23 <clown> JS: This is what i found:
20:32:23 <clown> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-pf/2013OctDec/0079.html
20:33:48 <clown> JS:  MSAA has STATE_SYSTEM_OFFSCREEN
20:34:01 <clown> JS:  UIA has IsOffscreen
20:34:19 <clown> CS:  But, this isn't a back door for screen readers.
20:34:39 <clown> CS:  It was for small screens where some of the content was scrolled offscreen.
20:34:47 <clown> DB:  what about occlusion.
20:34:58 <clown> CS:  Not the same thing, but there may be another property for that.
20:35:35 <clown> CS:  I'm not sure "offscreen" was for things inside a window, but for windows that were offscreen.
20:35:49 <clown> DB:  If it scrolled offscreen is it "offscreen"?
20:35:54 <clown> CS:  I'm not sure.  I have to look.
20:36:03 <clown> BG:  What about layering?
20:36:18 <clown> DB:  It should be similar to the occulsion question.
20:36:38 <clown> BG:  Like in a carousel where you have a layering effect.
20:36:48 <clown> DB:  Visible by not legible?
20:37:00 <clown> DB:  Includes things like translucent, and overlays.
20:37:04 <clown> BG:  yes.
20:37:28 <clown> DB:  It's funny that as time goes on there are more contexts that don't fit our original state.
20:37:53 <clown> s/original state/original states/
20:38:16 <clown> JS: I had difficulty with finding an offscreen state for ATK/AT-SPI
20:38:36 <clown> DB:  I think that's a combo of STATE_INVISIBLE and STATE_SHOWING.
20:38:46 <clown> JS:  I believe Alex said something along those lines.
20:39:53 <clown> JS:  It would be clear STATE_INVISIBLE and clear STATE_SHOWING
20:40:41 <clown> zakim take up item 2
20:40:47 <clown> zakim, take up item 2
20:40:47 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Agenda for next week's face-to-face: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/meetings/2014-01-ftf#agenda" taken up [from clown]
20:46:51 <clown> JS:  <general discussion of agenda for face-to-face>
20:48:35 <clown> DB:  Is there a call next week?
20:49:15 <clown> JS:  If we have a call, what will we talk about?
20:52:08 <clown> JS:  There is not meeting next week.
20:52:16 <Zakim> -verytired_David_Bolter
20:52:19 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
20:52:25 <Zakim> -Cooper
20:52:27 <Zakim> - +1.650.773.aaaa
20:52:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/01/14-aapi-minutes.html clown
20:53:43 <clown> s/a11ybroken.dequecloud.com\///
20:53:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/01/14-aapi-minutes.html clown
20:54:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/01/14-aapi-minutes.html clown
20:54:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/01/14-aapi-minutes.html clown
20:55:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/01/14-aapi-minutes.html clown
20:56:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/01/14-aapi-minutes.html clown
20:57:01 <clown> s/a11ybroken/ /
20:57:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/01/14-aapi-minutes.html clown
20:57:31 <clown> s/a11ybroken/ /g
20:57:57 <clown> s/.dequecloud/ /g
20:58:11 <clown> s/.com/ /g
20:58:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/01/14-aapi-minutes.html clown
21:01:09 <clown> s/occulsion/occlusion/
21:01:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/01/14-aapi-minutes.html clown
21:02:06 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were verytired_David_Bolter, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Bryan_Garaventa, Michael_Cooper, cyns, Cooper
21:02:06 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aapi
21:02:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/01/14-aapi-minutes.html clown
21:07:28 <clown> s/html5accessibility /html5accessibility/
21:07:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/01/14-aapi-minutes.html clown
21:10:27 <clown> rrsagent, please part
21:10:27 <RRSAgent> I see no action items