15:41:05 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dpub
15:41:05 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/01/13-dpub-irc
15:41:07 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:41:07 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #dpub
15:41:09 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be dpub
15:41:09 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 19 minutes
15:41:10 <trackbot> Meeting: Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference
15:41:10 <trackbot> Date: 13 January 2014
15:50:30 <azaroth> azaroth has joined #DPUB
15:51:42 <Zakim> DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM has now started
15:51:49 <Zakim> +Liza
15:52:04 <lizadaly> lizadaly has joined #dpub
15:53:59 <Zakim> +dauwhe
15:54:24 <azaroth> I can scribe today?
15:55:05 <Zakim> +azaroth
15:56:58 <tzviya> tzviya has joined #dpub
15:57:36 <Zakim> +Tzviya
15:57:58 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
15:57:58 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
15:58:00 <Zakim> +Ivan
15:58:09 <Luc> Luc has joined #dpub
15:58:31 <ivan> Regrets: Vlad, Laura, Brady
15:59:03 <mgylling> mgylling has joined #dpub
15:59:04 <Bill_Kasdorf> Bill_Kasdorf has joined #dpub
15:59:06 <fjh> fjh has joined #dpub
15:59:21 <Zakim> +Stearns
15:59:42 <Zakim> +??P37
15:59:51 <mgylling> zakim, ??P37 is me
15:59:51 <Zakim> +mgylling; got it
15:59:59 <Zakim> +Bill_Kasdorf
16:00:12 <gcapiel> gcapiel has joined #dpub
16:00:23 <lizadaly> I hear plenty of beeping
16:00:26 <Suzanne> Suzanne has joined #dpub
16:00:43 <Bert> Bert has joined #dpub
16:00:50 <dshkolnik> dshkolnik has joined #dpub
16:01:13 <Zakim> +Bert
16:01:15 <benjaminsko> benjaminsko has joined #dpub
16:01:19 <Zakim> +laudrain
16:01:34 <Zakim> +benjaminsko
16:01:39 <dauwhe> Is the conference line actually working? I've heard no human voices.
16:01:43 <Zakim> +??P48
16:01:56 <lizadaly> I just say 'hello' but heard nothing back
16:02:02 <lizadaly> so I guess that's a 'no'
16:02:02 <Zakim> +AWK
16:02:03 <gcapiel> Zakim, ??P48 is me
16:02:03 <Zakim> +gcapiel; got it
16:02:05 <dauwhe> I've heard nothing.
16:02:14 <azaroth> Other than beeps
16:02:15 <ivan> heh neither do I
16:02:24 <mgylling> /me its a tibetan-style concall this week
16:02:26 <Luc> neither do i
16:02:27 <Zakim> -AWK
16:02:28 <lizadaly> I assume Markus is just bored
16:02:41 <Sharad> Sharad has joined #dpub
16:02:47 <TomDN> TomDN has joined #dpub
16:02:57 <Zakim> +AWK
16:03:09 <dauwhe> Zakim, wtf?
16:03:09 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, dauwhe.
16:03:15 <ivan> :-)
16:03:22 <mgylling> Zakim, get your friggin act together
16:03:22 <Zakim> I don't understand 'get your friggin act together', mgylling
16:03:24 <lizadaly> Zakim has a case of the Mondays
16:03:25 <azaroth> zakim, who is making noise?
16:03:27 <Zakim> +Sharad_Garg
16:03:28 <Zakim> +[Ugent]
16:03:36 <Zakim> azaroth, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
16:03:36 <TomDN> Zakim, [Ugent] is me
16:03:37 <Zakim> +TomDN; got it
16:03:42 <TomDN> zakim, mute me
16:03:42 <Zakim> TomDN was already muted, TomDN
16:03:42 <azaroth> zakim, correct :(
16:03:43 <Zakim> I don't understand 'correct :(', azaroth
16:03:53 <mgylling> ivan, should we restart or sth?
16:03:56 <azaroth> zakim, unmute me
16:03:57 <Zakim> azaroth should no longer be muted
16:04:05 <lizadaly> Hear that!
16:04:10 <mgylling> zakim, unmute me
16:04:10 <Zakim> mgylling should no longer be muted
16:04:13 <lizadaly> zakim, unmute me
16:04:13 <Zakim> sorry, lizadaly, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
16:04:18 <Bill_Kasdorf> I can hear now
16:04:31 <TomDN> Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:04:31 <Zakim> On the phone I see Liza (muted), dauwhe (muted), azaroth, Tzviya (muted), Ivan (muted), Stearns (muted), mgylling, Bill_Kasdorf (muted), Bert (muted), laudrain (muted), benjaminsko
16:04:35 <Zakim> ... (muted), gcapiel (muted), AWK (muted), Sharad_Garg (muted), TomDN (muted)
16:04:39 <ivan> zakim, unmute me
16:04:39 <Zakim> Ivan should no longer be muted
16:04:41 <dauwhe> Zakim, unmute me
16:04:42 <Zakim> dauwhe should no longer be muted
16:04:42 <mgylling> zakim, umnmute all
16:04:43 <Zakim> I don't understand 'umnmute all', mgylling
16:04:46 <astearns> zakim, unmute me
16:04:46 <Zakim> sorry, astearns, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
16:04:48 <lizadaly> How do I tell it which line I'm on?
16:04:50 <Luc> zakim, unmute me
16:04:50 <Zakim> sorry, Luc, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
16:04:57 <azaroth> zakim, unmute sharad_garg
16:04:57 <Zakim> Sharad_Garg should no longer be muted
16:04:58 <astearns> zakim, unmute stearns
16:04:58 <Zakim> Stearns should no longer be muted
16:05:06 <gcapiel> Zakim, unmute MemoServ
16:05:08 <Zakim> sorry, gcapiel, I do not know which phone connection belongs to MemoServ
16:05:08 <dshkolnik> Zakim, unmute
16:05:08 <Zakim> I don't understand 'unmute', dshkolnik
16:05:15 <ivan> zakim, unmute lizadaly
16:05:15 <Zakim> sorry, ivan, I do not know which phone connection belongs to lizadaly
16:05:16 <azaroth> zakim, unmute tzviya
16:05:16 <Zakim> Tzviya should no longer be muted
16:05:19 <dshkolnik> Zakim, unmute me
16:05:19 <Zakim> sorry, dshkolnik, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
16:05:21 <Bill_Kasdorf> I mute and unmute locally. Since I can hear, do I need to unmute on Zakim?
16:05:23 <gcapiel> Zakim, unmute me
16:05:23 <Zakim> gcapiel should no longer be muted
16:05:29 <azaroth> zakim, who is on the phone
16:05:29 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the phone', azaroth
16:05:40 <azaroth> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:05:40 <Zakim> On the phone I see Liza (muted), dauwhe, azaroth, Tzviya, Ivan, Stearns, mgylling, Bill_Kasdorf (muted), Bert, laudrain, benjaminsko (muted), gcapiel, AWK (muted), Sharad_Garg,
16:05:43 <Zakim> ... TomDN (muted)
16:05:47 <Zakim> +tm
16:05:55 <azaroth> scribe: azaroth
16:05:56 <Liza> zakim, unmute me
16:05:56 <Zakim> Liza should no longer be muted
16:06:02 <Liza> BOOM
16:06:05 <tmichel> zakim, tm is tmichel
16:06:05 <Zakim> +tmichel; got it
16:06:10 <Bill_Kasdorf> How?
16:06:11 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:06:15 <fjh> zakim, IPcaller is me
16:06:15 <Zakim> +fjh; got it
16:06:21 <azaroth> zakim, who is making noise?
16:06:26 <fjh> zakim, who is here?
16:06:26 <Zakim> On the phone I see Liza, dauwhe, azaroth, Tzviya, Ivan, Stearns, mgylling, Bill_Kasdorf (muted), Bert, laudrain, benjaminsko (muted), gcapiel, AWK, Sharad_Garg, TomDN (muted),
16:06:30 <Zakim> ... tmichel (muted), fjh (muted)
16:06:30 <Zakim> On IRC I see TomDN, Sharad, benjaminsko, dshkolnik, Bert, gcapiel, fjh, Bill_Kasdorf, mgylling, Luc, tzviya, Liza, azaroth, Zakim, RRSAgent, tmichel, ivan, dauwhe, plinss,
16:06:30 <Zakim> ... astearns, liam, trackbot
16:06:31 <Zakim> azaroth, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: dauwhe (4%), Ivan (25%), laudrain (42%)
16:07:01 <fjh> zakim, unmute me
16:07:01 <Zakim> fjh should no longer be muted
16:07:05 <Zakim> +Liam
16:07:29 <Bill_Kasdorf> 60#
16:07:43 <azaroth> Markus:  As we decided last week, another week on LatinReq focus.  We ended the last call thinking we scratched the surface, so will continue another week
16:07:59 <azaroth> ... before we do that we need to approve previous meetings minutes
16:08:06 <azaroth> ... Approved
16:08:44 <azaroth> Ivan: An admin thing before we start, I just want to warn you that we had a security breach at W3C.
16:08:53 <azaroth> ... at some point you may be asked to change your password.
16:09:15 <azaroth> ... When you try to log in to a member restricted area, you'll be asked to change.  We're testing the system now with the team.
16:09:29 <azaroth> ???: When we see that, we should just go ahead and change it?
16:09:40 <fjh> s/???/fjh/
16:09:43 <azaroth> Ivan: Yes, you can postpone for two weeks, but will need to do it at some point
16:10:02 <azaroth> Markus: Dave, can you give a quick recap of what we covered last week to get back into the mode?
16:10:41 <azaroth> dauwhe: I droned on about dropcaps for a while, some low hanging fruit for CSS. talked about some issues people are having in ebook systems, such as hyphenation and justification
16:11:08 <azaroth> ... We talked about image and caption sizing, quite a bit about various efforts to bring typographic sophistication to the web.
16:11:46 <azaroth> ... On Sunday I updated latinreq document, alan sent a nice intro text on grids.  Added a section about justification and hyphenation, as a concern for a lot of us.
16:12:03 <azaroth> ... so I thought today we could talk about that this week, and about grids and underlying issues they may solve
16:12:19 <azaroth> ... Just sent the list a detailed email about table alignment.
16:12:28 <azaroth> ... Anything I forgot to mention?
16:12:41 <Zakim> +madi
16:13:00 <azaroth> Markus: We had email thread from last week where ben and luke posted some issues.  Felt to me like if we cover table alignment and so on today, that's a good amount
16:13:01 <Madi> Madi has joined #dpub
16:13:17 <azaroth> ... tell us about H. and Justi~n and where we should end up?
16:13:42 <astearns> dauwhe: could you post latinreq URL? The task force wiki page has the wrong link.
16:13:54 <azaroth> Dave: A couple of things.  I wonder if we're at the point where we or some other group need to be detailed about what we want to see. What does it mean for a book reading system to do a good job with the text
16:13:56 <dauwhe> http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pagination/index.html
16:14:00 <tzviya> http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pagination/
16:14:41 <azaroth> ... so one possibility on Hypenation... a lot depends on dictionaries.  Had experience with good and bad ones. Is it possible to say which is good or not so good with various languages?
16:14:43 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:14:44 <tzviya> q+
16:15:05 <mgylling> ack Bill_Kasdorf
16:15:06 <azaroth> ... could contribute best practices on how to build it into rendering engine
16:15:31 <azaroth> Bill_Kasdorf: In a lot of disciplines there are specialized dictionaries needed, due to terminology
16:15:37 <liam> +1
16:15:45 <azaroth> ... some way to accommodate this is important, esp for medical.
16:15:55 <azaroth> Dave: At individual title level, exception dict is important
16:16:21 <azaroth> ... per file or copy, the dictionary is a critical piece to supply hyphenation exceptions
16:16:34 <azaroth> Markus:  To understand, the document provider should declare which dict to use?
16:16:53 <azaroth> Bill: In addition to the built in, should use Steadman's medical dictionary as authority for hypen~n
16:17:10 <Luc> q+
16:17:17 <azaroth> ... sometimes a publisher will have an individual list of words it knows will be problematic in a title and provide list of dozen such terms
16:17:27 <azaroth> Markus:  So not in a dictionary, local to the particular title
16:17:28 <azaroth> q+
16:17:45 <azaroth> Dave: various systems have ways to enter new terms to override
16:17:56 <mgylling> ack tzviya
16:17:58 <azaroth> Markus: Sounds like 2 clear requirements to formulate
16:18:26 <azaroth> Tzviuya: Same as BIl, but as we get into more advanced fields, need expanded on. Medicine is broad, but grad level chemistry things get complicated
16:18:27 <mgylling> ack Liam
16:18:28 <Zakim> Liam, you wanted to note it may vary within a document
16:18:55 <azaroth> Liam: Live in a multilingual web, and multidiscipline.  Might need multiple dictionaries for a single document
16:19:04 <azaroth> ... saw this with print publications in 80s
16:19:20 <azaroth> Markus: Any effort in W3C in this area so far?
16:19:32 <azaroth> Liam: Nothing beyond what we did in XSL FO.
16:19:39 <azaroth> q-
16:20:05 <azaroth> Dave: Is there a standard for even describing hypen~n like TeX style that aren't easy to understand
16:20:09 <azaroth> Liam: Not aware of any
16:20:20 <azaroth> ... eg words in German that change spelling when you hypenate them
16:20:25 <azaroth> ... might be in OpenOffice
16:20:30 <mgylling> ack Luc
16:20:53 <azaroth> Luc: Proper way to solve this is perhaps to rely on hypen~n inside the text
16:21:14 <azaroth> ... in a limited environment could be possible to prepare text with the special words / preferred hypenation
16:21:15 <astearns> so far, all CSS says about hyphenation dictionaries is that the user agent must choose a language appropriate resource
16:21:33 <azaroth> ... question may be to find a good composition engine that takes into account the preferred places in the words
16:21:54 <azaroth> ... as in EPUB with fixed content document, could be prepared in advance
16:22:08 <azaroth> ... so not to rely on external dictionaries
16:22:13 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:22:20 <mgylling> ack Liam
16:22:20 <Zakim> Liam, you wanted to note trend is away from inline resources and towards separate resources; also, browsers today *do* do hyphenation, just don't support per-page or per-site
16:22:23 <Zakim> ... dictionaries directly, and problem with search, google, etc
16:22:33 <astearns> +1 to Liam's point
16:22:46 <azaroth> Liam: Trend is away from inline and towards external, like CSS and fonts
16:22:59 <azaroth> ... when people look at 2 or more pages, is better
16:23:20 <azaroth> ... but don't support hyphenation.  Search in page stops working etc.
16:23:26 <azaroth> ... More that needs to be specified
16:23:26 <mgylling> ack Bill_Kasdorf
16:23:48 <azaroth> Bill: Almost always a dict is used in tandem with an algorithm as it doesn't provide all possible words
16:23:59 <azaroth> ... if present in dict it takes precedence
16:24:06 <Luc> +1
16:24:07 <azaroth> Dave: Using dict in a very broad sense
16:24:22 <astearns> dauwhe: you can encode prioritization in some systems (two dischys for a better break, for example)
16:24:42 <azaroth> Bill: In all languages many examples of limitations where you can't do it without context, eg pres/ent and pre/sent
16:24:48 <mgylling> q?
16:25:08 <azaroth> Dave: Situation out there in the wild is bad, we want to improve it, but not going to get perfection
16:25:14 <azaroth> Bill: Yes, not attainable
16:25:16 <Luc> q+
16:25:25 <azaroth> Dave: There's a lot we can do in this area for requirements
16:25:30 <mgylling> ack Luc
16:25:33 <azaroth> ... perhaps moving on to justification
16:26:09 <azaroth> Luc: Main question remains, if dictionaries used for exceptions, on algorithms used in OWP to calculate line length and breaking
16:26:27 <azaroth> ... or declare them?
16:26:47 <azaroth> Luc: Don't know which should be used but would like to know which are available? Does each browser have their own?
16:26:59 <liam> [document providers will be able to say they prefer a particular algorithm from a well-known list; I hope to see at least two supported (first-fit as now, and n-line) ]
16:27:16 <astearns> q+ to mention ladders
16:27:24 <azaroth> Dave: It becomes a bit intertwined with justification at that point to decide
16:27:26 <mgylling> ack astearns
16:27:26 <Zakim> astearns, you wanted to mention ladders
16:28:09 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:28:33 <mgylling> ack Bill_Kasdorf
16:29:29 <azaroth_> azaroth_ has joined #DPUB
16:29:42 <azaroth_> Markus: Okay, moving on...
16:29:51 <azaroth_> Dave: Should we talk about tables a bit?
16:30:01 <azaroth_> ... I think this a good and interesting topic
16:30:24 <ivan> -> http://www.w3.org/mid/CA+EQKqi5UqFG_6X7hKnH0CxQBeWRnopzxg5THpXQYG_smX84JA@mail.gmail.com mail sent just now
16:30:37 <azaroth_> ... Ben has done a tremendous amount of research into automated rendering for HE texts
16:31:02 <azaroth_> Ben: I sent a mail to the list.  Higher level -- line on character support, but can be on any character often decimals
16:31:15 <azaroth_> Second is support for flush left center. Not sure there's a standard term.
16:31:41 <azaroth_> ... FLC is a common variation on FL and FC, not supported in things even like InDesign
16:31:48 <azaroth_> Ivan: What does it do?
16:32:26 <azaroth_> Ben: What's the difference? FLC says look at the column, find the longest line in the entries, center that line, and then take all the other lines and flush left on that longest, centered line
16:32:30 <Bill_Kasdorf> That is used in poetry as well as tables
16:32:42 <azaroth_> Markus: Flush meaning align the left most character with the base
16:32:50 <azaroth_> Ben: Yup, align left
16:32:56 <azaroth_> Bill: Also done in poetry
16:33:11 <azaroth_> Ben: Third is preventing line wrap if you have cells aligning on a character or word
16:33:27 <mgylling> important point re poetry, means this is not table-specific alignment behavior
16:33:28 <azaroth_> ... Fourth, table widths.  Lots of notes about requirements. Ask group if I should document?
16:33:30 <dauwhe> q+
16:33:45 <azaroth_> ... idea is that tables don't size to some arbitrary dimension, set by fixed width
16:33:45 <tzviya> q+
16:33:57 <azaroth_> ... idea partially aesthetics and relationships between tables
16:34:05 <dauwhe> q-
16:34:07 <azaroth_> ... 4 tables that showed similar data and should be considered together
16:34:18 <azaroth_> ... if rendered at diff sizes may be hard to see they're related
16:34:51 <azaroth> ... can't preset the width, so have to be able to set table to some choice of width that is provided
16:35:00 <azaroth> ... those are the high level points so far
16:35:21 <azaroth> ... Alan? you replied on list, can you read it back to discuss?
16:35:34 <azaroth> Alan: You had steps for aligning on a character eg decimal. didn't seem right
16:35:46 <azaroth> ... centering portion can't be part of the algorithm sometimes
16:35:53 <azaroth> Ben: Circumstance?
16:36:06 <azaroth> Alan: Gave some sample data in reply.
16:36:28 <azaroth> ... Can result in case where nothing is centred and that's appropriate
16:36:52 <azaroth> Ben: Yes, true.
16:36:55 <Liza> q+
16:37:00 <azaroth> \me notes scribe isn't understanding discussion
16:37:30 <azaroth> Alan: Focus more on discussion and less on an algorithm. Could be a faster algorithm.  Just talk about requirements not necessarily steps
16:37:47 <azaroth> Ben: Fair enough. I think in this case I think we want to stay away from implementation details
16:38:00 <azaroth> ... trying to give examples that there's additional details to consider
16:38:32 <azaroth> ... agree that when more digits on one side in one cell, and more on the other side in another cell, but no individual cell would be centered
16:38:40 <mgylling> ack tzviya
16:38:43 <azaroth> Markus: Shall we go through Q?
16:39:07 <azaroth> Tzviya: Snapping to width is relevant, often related to trim size. Data relevant to a section needs to be presented in the same way.
16:39:40 <azaroth> ... also spans and straddles -- can be difficult to achive with CSS, esp with centre the content within a span. In HE content often see vertical text, not sure if we want to mention in high level reqs but will come up
16:39:44 <azaroth> Ben: Agreed
16:39:48 <mgylling> ack Liza
16:39:58 <Bill_Kasdorf> Do you mean vertical text or rotated text?
16:40:06 <astearns> I think we should definitely mention Latin vertical text requirements
16:40:06 <azaroth> Liza: To what extent do we want to consider tables in mobile devices where there's no room
16:40:11 <tzviya> +100
16:40:16 <azaroth> ... problem with basic html in reading systems
16:40:20 <azaroth> +100 from me too
16:40:37 <azaroth> ... Do we want to dictate what the behaviour should be when the reading system can't fill the space
16:40:58 <azaroth> Markus: Something that Tzviya has talked about as well. The most basic things not working.  A separate cluster of requirements?
16:41:29 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:41:31 <azaroth> Dave: First thought is it sounds like a separate cluster of fallbacks for tables in limited screen real estate, how tables should degrade. Haven;t thought about it a lot
16:41:39 <azaroth> ... expect other people have spent more time
16:41:50 <azaroth> Markus:  What task force? Tzviya, under adaptive?
16:42:22 <azaroth> Tzviya: I mentioned it. If we talk about tables in this document, we should mention it. That it won't render everywhere. Also Bill was considering -- not everything can function as a table in mobile
16:42:31 <azaroth> ... not sure a fallback would be the way we define it
16:42:42 <azaroth> Dave: Just using to mean some simplified arrangement
16:42:55 <azaroth> Liza: Not to increase the scope, but need a position on it as a real issue
16:43:02 <azaroth> Markus: Agreed, been up before and we need to cover it
16:43:32 <azaroth> Dave: latinreq might be the place to describe the high end use case, what we want to do with tables, but not the place to work on more restrictive circumstances
16:43:40 <azaroth> Markus: Natural home? Tzviya?
16:43:50 <azaroth> Tzviya: Still trying to figure out what my area is :)
16:43:59 <mgylling> ack Bill_Kasdorf
16:43:59 <azaroth> ... do have a use case, so can bring it up.  Sure.
16:44:34 <azaroth> Bill:  Just to point out that there's an obvious behaviour that compensates -- the ability to hide rows or columns.  Typically not reading everything, just looking something up
16:44:45 <azaroth> ... don't care about columns 2-4 to look up something in column 5
16:45:00 <azaroth> ... so if you can hide them, you can see it on your phone
16:45:21 <Zakim> -Sharad_Garg
16:45:21 <azaroth> Tzviya: Don't necessarily agree. Sometimes need everything to do a comparison.
16:45:41 <azaroth> Bill: If it's a table, then given the ability to look at portions is useful. Not a complete solution
16:45:48 <azaroth> Markus: Where were we with alignment in columns
16:46:17 <azaroth> Ben: I'll clean up the language to correct hte language. Screenshots ... how to provide?
16:46:26 <azaroth> Dave: I can put them in the doc if you email them to me
16:46:34 <azaroth> ... next comment was can we have some illustrations
16:46:50 <azaroth> Markus: Sounds like we had unanimous agreement was requirements, not to mandate algorithms
16:47:08 <astearns> q+ on algorithms
16:47:13 <azaroth> Dave: Some sort of tricky example to align on character, describing these kind of arrangements
16:47:16 <mgylling> ack astearns
16:47:16 <Zakim> astearns, you wanted to comment on algorithms
16:47:18 <azaroth> ... in scope for this doc
16:47:47 <azaroth> Alan: Algorithm the computer has to go through seems out of scope. Manual algorithm for print production, those steps are very useful to describe
16:48:04 <azaroth> Dave: Yes, this is how we think about it, the concepts we apply to get the desired end result. Agree those are good
16:48:17 <azaroth> Markus: Dave, you also mentioned grids as a topic
16:48:33 <dauwhe> http://alistapart.com
16:48:34 <azaroth> Dave: Thanks to Alan for the text. Provided a lovely example of the problem
16:49:11 <azaroth> ... Something I mentioned last week, the idea of the grid seems important, also trying to get at the underlying principles. Alignment goals that grids implement
16:49:38 <azaroth> ... trying to get to a more fundamental aspect of the problem.  Looking at the example there, what is supposed to align with what, that would make it look less horrible
16:50:09 <azaroth> ... at bottom, there's a section more from alistapart, 3 articles with varying structures so nothing aligns
16:50:21 <azaroth> ... main text isn't on the same grid, varying numbers of lines. all over the place
16:50:45 <azaroth> Alan: One of the things I'm planning to do is put some screenshots together to show before and after, what controls you'd need to achieve the after effect
16:51:12 <azaroth> ... been considering for grids are theoretical, don't work on the tools. for ppl using baseline grids, they have some manual steps, would be good to get feedback for requirements
16:51:24 <astearns> s/don't work/only work/
16:51:42 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:51:43 <azaroth> Dave: Love to see some examples of grids in use. Can point out that grid enables this to work. Underlying design principles to codify
16:51:55 <mgylling> ack Bill_Kasdorf
16:51:59 <azaroth> ... what grids need to achieve
16:52:09 <Zakim> -fjh
16:52:17 <azaroth> Bill: Makes me think of related use case- ability to set a vertical marker that other things are aligned with
16:52:28 <azaroth> ... not a pre existing grid, just an alignment point. On the list?
16:52:42 <azaroth> Dave: Applies to lots of things. Side by side text, side note.
16:52:47 <azaroth> Bill: translations for example
16:52:49 <azaroth> Dave: Yeah
16:52:58 <azaroth> ... way to go is if you have examples, then send them along
16:53:07 <azaroth> Bill: Yes not a grid, just made me think of it
16:53:17 <azaroth> Dave: Larger issue of alignment. How does this object relate to that object
16:53:39 <azaroth> ... whole subject has lots of diff manifestations. As many examples as possible to let us come up with what we need to do
16:54:00 <azaroth> Markus: Bill, I thought you were going to talk about alignment in 2 page spread. points sometimes cross page boundaries.
16:54:20 <azaroth> Bill: That's true. More universal than that. DOn't want people to focus on page based rendering, relevant in reflowable
16:54:29 <azaroth> ... good question though, would the same mechanism work for both use cases
16:54:40 <Luc> +1
16:54:48 <azaroth> Dave: Sent the list another big question on equation alignment on = signs
16:54:53 <azaroth> ... even though unrelated html structure
16:55:03 <liam> +1 alignment
16:55:05 <azaroth> ... one of the big, fundamental issues when laying out pages
16:55:21 <azaroth> Markus: Need to decide what to do next week
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16:55:30 <azaroth> ... where do you see yourself going in terms of grids?
16:55:46 <azaroth> Dave: Would like to get illustrations, examples in here. See where they go.
16:56:04 <azaroth> ... can start writing up more on hyphenation. WOuld like to start collecting egs and screenshots
16:56:31 <azaroth> ... maybe go into a phase where actively working on a few parts with lots of input from people with what trying to achieve
16:56:38 <azaroth> Markus: Alan, does that work for you?
16:56:43 <azaroth> Alan: Certainly
16:56:55 <mgylling> ack Luc
16:57:36 <azaroth> Markus: Great. For next week, we need another task force, unless you disagree Dave?
16:57:42 <azaroth> Dave: I need a break :)
16:57:52 <azaroth> Markus: Tzviya, shall we move to your group?
16:58:09 <azaroth> Tzviya: Don't have a lot pulled together, but could review what we have now
16:58:24 <azaroth> Markus: Still a bit fuzzy where the edges are, need to clarify where to go.
16:58:39 <azaroth> ... AOB?
16:58:53 <azaroth> Dave: Several of us will be at digital book world this week
16:59:13 <Zakim> -madi
16:59:14 <Zakim> -Bill_Kasdorf
16:59:14 <Zakim> -Liza
16:59:14 <TomDN> zakim, unmute me
16:59:15 <Zakim> TomDN should no longer be muted
16:59:16 <Zakim> -Tzviya
16:59:16 <Zakim> -dauwhe
16:59:17 <Zakim> -Ivan
16:59:18 <Zakim> -azaroth
16:59:18 <Zakim> -Stearns
16:59:19 <Zakim> -benjaminsko
16:59:19 <Zakim> -Liam
16:59:21 <Zakim> -TomDN
16:59:22 <Zakim> -Bert
16:59:23 <mgylling> regrets: Brady Duga, Vladimir Levantovsky, Laura Fowler, Jean Kaplansky
16:59:25 <Zakim> -laudrain
16:59:26 <Zakim> -AWK
16:59:26 <tmichel> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:59:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/01/13-dpub-minutes.html tmichel
16:59:50 <Zakim> -tmichel
16:59:52 <Zakim> -gcapiel
17:05:00 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, mgylling, in DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM
17:05:02 <Zakim> DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM has ended
17:05:02 <Zakim> Attendees were Liza, dauwhe, azaroth, Tzviya, Ivan, Stearns, mgylling, Bill_Kasdorf, Bert, laudrain, benjaminsko, AWK, gcapiel, Sharad_Garg, TomDN, tmichel, fjh, Liam, madi
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