15:07:42 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dpub
15:07:42 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/01/06-dpub-irc
15:07:44 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:07:44 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #dpub
15:07:46 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be dpub
15:07:46 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_DPUB-IG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 53 minutes
15:07:47 <trackbot> Meeting: Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference
15:07:48 <trackbot> Date: 06 January 2014
15:09:29 <Pdanet> tnx Ivan, and, BTW, Hny 2014. I thought it was now, 5:00 PM is difficult for me today but Luc will be there
15:25:17 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #dpub
15:37:00 <philm> philm has joined #dpub
15:48:45 <ivan> Regrets:  TomDN
15:49:07 <mgylling> mgylling has joined #dpub
15:49:21 <ivan> Scribe: Tzviya
15:51:23 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #dpub
15:51:43 <Zakim> SW_DPUB-IG()11:00AM has now started
15:51:50 <Zakim> +Liza
15:52:13 <lizadaly> lizadaly has joined #dpub
15:52:49 <azaroth> azaroth has joined #DPUB
15:55:22 <Zakim> + +33.1.41.23.aaaa
15:55:51 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
15:55:51 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
15:55:52 <Zakim> +Ivan
15:56:02 <tzviya> tzviya has joined #dpub
15:56:30 <Zakim> +??P3
15:56:42 <Zakim> +dauwhe
15:56:45 <mgylling> zakim, ??P3 is mgylling
15:56:45 <Zakim> +mgylling; got it
15:56:57 <Zakim> +Tzviya
15:56:58 <fjh> fjh has joined #dpub
15:56:59 <ivan> zakim, aaaa is laudrain
15:56:59 <Zakim> +laudrain; got it
15:57:51 <gcapiel> gcapiel has joined #dpub
15:58:18 <Zakim> +azaroth
15:58:42 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:58:42 <fjh> zakim, IPcaller is me
15:58:44 <Zakim> +fjh; got it
15:58:54 <Zakim> + +1.347.633.aabb
15:59:10 <fjh> Present+ Frederick_Hirsch
15:59:39 <Zakim> +benjaminsko
15:59:39 <brady_duga> brady_duga has joined #dpub
15:59:48 <benjaminsko> benjaminsko has joined #dpub
15:59:58 <Zakim> +??P24
15:59:58 <tzviya> scribe: tzviya
16:00:00 <Zakim> +Stearns
16:00:12 <Zakim> +??P26
16:00:26 <ivan> Guest: Julie Morris, BISG
16:00:34 <Zakim> +duga
16:00:35 <mgylling> zakim, who is here?
16:00:35 <Zakim> On the phone I see Liza, laudrain, Ivan, mgylling, dauwhe, Tzviya, azaroth, fjh, +1.347.633.aabb, benjaminsko, ??P24, Stearns, ??P26, duga
16:00:37 <Zakim> On IRC I see benjaminsko, brady_duga, gcapiel, fjh, tzviya, azaroth, lizadaly, dauwhe, mgylling, philm, Zakim, RRSAgent, Suzanne, ivan, plinss, astearns, liam, trackbot
16:00:42 <gcapiel> Zakim, ??P26 is me
16:00:43 <Zakim> +gcapiel; got it
16:01:03 <Zakim> +JeanKaplansky
16:01:30 <tmichel> tmichel has joined #dpub
16:01:44 <JeanK> JeanK has joined #dpub
16:02:06 <Zakim> +Laura_Fowler
16:02:32 <Zakim> +??P33
16:02:47 <tmichel> zakim, ??P33 is me
16:02:47 <Zakim> +tmichel; got it
16:03:58 <tzviya> markus: minutes from previous meeting approved
16:04:24 <tzviya> minutes:  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2013Dec/0042.html
16:04:34 <tzviya> ivan: announcements
16:04:35 <Zakim> +Vlad
16:04:54 <Vlad> Vlad has joined #dpub
16:04:56 <tzviya> ...madi solomon has decided to step down as co-chair because of changes at Pearson
16:05:07 <Zakim> +Suzanne_Taylor
16:05:08 <tzviya> ...Liza Daly is taking over as co-chair
16:05:15 <tzviya> Liza: thank you
16:05:30 <tzviya> welcome Liza
16:06:12 <lizadaly> Hooray!
16:06:28 <tzviya> Ivan: new members joining group, including Apple
16:06:56 <tzviya> ...2 members from Apple David Singer (?), rep at W3C
16:07:06 <tzviya> ...and Casey Dougherty
16:07:34 <tzviya> ...wekcome Julie Morris as almost member of group from BISG
16:07:56 <Vlad> s/(?),/AC/
16:07:56 <mgylling> css shapes: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2013Nov/0088.html
16:08:03 <tzviya> Julie: look forward to continued participatiion
16:08:21 <tzviya> Markus: CSS shaped review
16:08:46 <mgylling> s/shaped/shapes/
16:08:56 <phil_m> phil_m has joined #dpub
16:09:02 <lizadaly> Page selectors > shapes
16:09:15 <tzviya> markus: review is due on Jan 7
16:09:34 <tzviya> azaroth: did a quick read through and sent response to list
16:09:36 <mgylling> robs review: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2013Dec/0049.html
16:09:52 <tzviya> dave: did not get to over holidays
16:10:07 <tzviya> dave will look at this afternoon
16:10:45 <tzviya> ...and send note to list if there is anything specific to comment on. much is over dave's head (!)
16:11:28 <tzviya> Alan: no need to collate Dave + Rob's comments
16:11:40 <Luc> Luc has joined #dpub
16:11:58 <tzviya> markus: is there any area in particular to pay attention to?
16:12:22 <tzviya> alan: CSS WG looking to this groups experience with text ref to see if anything missed
16:12:31 <astearns> s/ref/wrap/
16:12:45 <tzviya> action: dave to review CSS shapes and respond to CSS WG
16:12:45 <trackbot> Created ACTION-15 - Review css shapes and respond to css wg [on Dave Cramer - due 2014-01-13].
16:13:38 <laudrain> laudrain has joined #dpub
16:13:43 <tzviya> markus: next time we get request like this, plan further in advance
16:14:12 <tzviya> dave: different requests will generate different levels of interest. Will vary by subject matter
16:14:16 <Luc> Luc has joined #dpub
16:14:19 <tzviya> topic: latinreq
16:14:33 <Zakim> +madi
16:14:41 <astearns> dauwhe: it may be more useful to read through the current editor's draft which includes some changes based on last call comments
16:14:44 <astearns> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-shapes/
16:14:51 <Madi> Madi has joined #dpub
16:14:53 <tzviya> markus: a few replies to dave's request for critical areas, but up to dave to take it from here
16:15:04 <tzviya> Dave: work has been progressing slowly on the document
16:15:19 <tzviya> ...recent changes have been a section on drop caps and raised caps
16:15:35 <ivan> -> http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pagination/ latest version of Dave's document
16:15:36 <tzviya> ...that made me think of questions some of us have in ebook production
16:15:57 <tzviya> ...drop caps are common in print, and many of try to use them in ebook
16:17:11 <tzviya> ...drop caps are tricky in CSS - top needs to align with character top. Raised cap needs to base align with other characters
16:17:32 <tzviya> ... In CSS, we encode number of lines and floats
16:17:53 <tzviya> ...this seems to be an area where the calculation should be done for us
16:17:57 <Bill_Kasdorf> Bill_Kasdorf has joined #dpub
16:18:12 <brady_duga> q+
16:18:34 <tzviya> ...would be nice if rendering agent could do calculation of line heights and different fonts for us
16:18:38 <Zakim> +Liam
16:18:57 <mgylling> zakim, who is noisy?
16:18:57 <tzviya> Markus: isn't this a perfect example of the kind of thing that we'd like to see?
16:18:58 <ivan> zakim, who is noisy?
16:19:05 <tzviya> Dave: yes
16:19:08 <mgylling> ack brady_duga
16:19:09 <Zakim> mgylling, listening for 11 seconds I could not identify any sounds
16:19:19 <Zakim> ivan, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Liza (2%), dauwhe (4%)
16:19:30 <tzviya> Brady: is this as specific as we want drop caps? or more specific units?
16:19:44 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:20:04 <tzviya> Dave: been thinking about that. Shifting from print to digital includes shifting ways of measuring
16:20:36 <Zakim> -azaroth
16:21:15 <mgylling> ack liam
16:21:15 <Zakim> liam, you wanted to address brady's question
16:21:23 <tzviya> ...part of me thinks that shorthand "make this a drop-cap" would be useful, but I'm not sure
16:21:38 <Zakim> +azaroth
16:21:42 <Bill_Kasdorf> yes I'm in LUX on Skype
16:21:54 <lizadaly> We already do have :first-letter in CSS already
16:21:55 <ivan> zakim, IPcaller is Bill_Kasdorf
16:21:55 <Zakim> +Bill_Kasdorf; got it
16:22:18 <tzviya> Liam: been through desire for drop caps with CSS WG in past. They say just multiply by 3. We need to be clear and precise
16:22:28 <liam> s/say/said/
16:22:49 <tzviya> markus: what else going on in the document?
16:23:11 <tzviya> dave: footnotes - collecting use cases of footnotes and where displayed
16:23:12 <ivan> -> http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pagination/#footnotes footnotes' section
16:23:40 <tzviya> ...getting a sense of properties that satisfy most users' needs
16:23:45 <tzviya> q+
16:24:34 <tzviya> dave: this seems like a good way to collect info about what should be happening
16:24:39 <mgylling> ack tzviya
16:24:40 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:25:23 <tzviya> tzviya: how much of this needs to be preserved in ebooks? a lot of this is done to save paper
16:25:35 <tzviya> dave: print is in scope for this
16:25:49 <Luc> q+
16:26:26 <mgylling> ack Bill_Kasdorf
16:26:48 <tzviya> dave: is the popup something we all agree upon?
16:27:28 <tzviya> tzviya: no, in academic works, there needs to be a method for citation, which would be more difficult with pop-ups
16:28:07 <tzviya> Bill: perhaps we should abandon the term "footnote" in favor of "note" so that we don't indicate location on page
16:28:30 <mgylling> ack Luc
16:28:55 <tzviya> ...do we have a method for indicating priority? Many of the samples discussed on the list are very rare
16:29:34 <tzviya> Luc: as soon as we decide to display on 2-dimensional area (page), we have concerns about quality
16:30:43 <tzviya> ...most of the time in reflowable view, we have to cope with horizontal display. Must address quality of rendering. If we can address notes in semantic way - make them appear when needed
16:30:59 <tzviya> ...then we remove the problem of quality
16:31:35 <mgylling> ack liam
16:31:35 <Zakim> liam, you wanted to note pop-ups may also have accessibility difficulties
16:31:38 <tzviya> dave: one of aims of this document is to describe rendering
16:32:35 <tzviya> Liam: the nature of a footnote is that it is not distracting. Pop-ups could present a challenge to that. Could be a problem for accessibility as well. Keep in mind.
16:33:29 <tzviya> Brady: I often miss note references in paper books. There is a risk of this happening with pop-ups as well.
16:33:52 <tzviya> Luc: Semantics should enable a subtle reference
16:34:16 <azaroth> q+
16:34:55 <tzviya> Dave: we've experimented with larger note refs and similar. There are many kinds of notes. Footnote may be used as shorthand for endnotes and many other kinds of notes
16:35:39 <tzviya> markus: in case of whether or not want pop-ups, there is connection to behavioral adaptive content as well as personalization
16:35:56 <mgylling> ack azaroth
16:36:07 <tzviya> ...it seems that dave wanted to identify low-hanging fruit
16:36:20 <tzviya> Rob: annotations also play into notes space
16:36:46 <tzviya> Markus: should we look at suggestions provided on list?
16:36:58 <ivan> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2014Jan/0002.html luc's emails
16:37:18 <tzviya> Dave: Luc addressed text justification and composition rules
16:37:33 <ivan> s/emails/email/
16:37:34 <tzviya> ...we all know good layout when we see it, but what is it?
16:37:46 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:38:00 <JeanK> +1
16:39:04 <tzviya> ...do we or some other group need to more formally describe how justification should work?
16:39:10 <astearns> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-text/#text-justify-property is all we have today in CSS for justification language specifics
16:39:25 <tzviya> Luc: there are algorithms that define how spacing should work
16:40:12 <gcapiel> gcapiel has joined #dpub
16:40:30 <tzviya> ...for example, see InDesign paragraph composition algorithm that checks spacing and repetition is correct
16:40:41 <tzviya> Ivan: please define composition engine
16:40:58 <tzviya> Luc: computes horizontal spacing between words
16:41:17 <tzviya> ...good distribution between spaces and word
16:42:02 <tzviya> Luc: priority is hyphenation and vertical justification
16:42:04 <JeanK> q+
16:42:10 <mgylling> ack Bill_Kasdorf
16:42:18 <tzviya> Dave: yes, we all read ebooks in which an H1 is last item on page
16:42:48 <tzviya> Bill: hyphenation is rarely mentioned without justification (H&J)
16:43:07 <Zakim> - +1.347.633.aabb
16:43:22 <tzviya> ...the two work in tandem  - adjust spacing when add a hyphen
16:43:41 <astearns> hyphenation is also useful in ragged text, for reducing line length variation
16:43:49 <mgylling> ack liam
16:43:49 <Zakim> liam, you wanted to mention recent CSS change to improve line-breaking
16:43:52 <tzviya> brady: can't really do hyphenation with justification
16:44:16 <tzviya> Liam: having done some work on line breaking a few years, i have a proposal for CSS WG
16:44:43 <tzviya> ...a property to indicate whether a line break is for interactive use or batch use
16:45:11 <tzviya> ...when add a line of text, the content might move around
16:45:40 <mgylling> ack JeanK
16:45:42 <Luc> +1
16:46:24 <tzviya> ...second property allows you to specify the name of line breaking algorithm and parsing parameters
16:46:40 <Zakim> -Laura_Fowler
16:46:41 <tzviya> ...this will likely be accepted by CSS WG
16:46:54 <JeanK> http://webtypography.net/intro/
16:47:02 <tzviya> Jean: dave asked whether these are in use
16:47:11 <Zakim> +Laura_Fowler
16:47:14 <JeanK> http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2013/05/17/typographic-design-patterns-practices-case-study-2013/
16:47:34 <tzviya> ...Some have attempted to bring Robert Bringhurst's work to the web (see Jean's links above)
16:48:19 <tzviya> ...A lot of composition that is done in XML are doing transformations to older languages, TEX and others
16:48:50 <tzviya> ...people on web are paying attention to this. See typeface.js, kerning.js and others
16:49:25 <tzviya> ...it would be worth our time to look at some of the resources available - will provide links
16:49:31 <ivan> q+
16:49:53 <JeanK> http://kerningjs.com/
16:49:57 <tzviya> markus: before we move beyond hyphenation, what is your takeaway, Dave?
16:50:02 <liam> s/TEK/TeK/
16:50:15 <JeanK> http://letteringjs.com/
16:50:18 <brady_duga> s/TeK/TeX
16:50:25 <tzviya> dave: there is a lot of energy and dissatisfaction. We need to continue to look at this
16:50:27 <Bill_Kasdorf> not TeX?
16:50:27 <mgylling> ack ivan
16:50:38 <JeanK> http://typeface.neocracy.org/
16:50:43 <tzviya> ivan: another area that bothers me as a reader
16:51:23 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:51:31 <tzviya> ...that is where hyphenation occurs - the line breaks are in the wrong location. The words break so that they look like other words
16:51:31 <JeanK> http://fittextjs.com/
16:52:05 <tzviya> dave: the quality of the justification is based on the quality of the justification dictionary
16:52:10 <mgylling> ack liam
16:52:10 <Zakim> liam, you wanted to note difference between unattended and attended formatting
16:52:59 <tzviya> liam: traditional print assumes that an editor will check the hyphenation
16:53:01 <mgylling> ack Bill_Kasdorf
16:53:04 <Zakim> -Laura_Fowler
16:53:36 <tzviya> ...when there us dynamic hyphenation in place, must use good algorithm
16:53:51 <JeanK> http://artequalswork.com/posts/on-widows.php
16:54:07 <tzviya> s/us/is
16:54:22 <Luc> q+
16:54:29 <mgylling> ack Luc
16:54:41 <tzviya> Luc: the question of the language of the text is a main issue of accessibility
16:55:02 <tzviya> Dave: another issue is image sizing and relationship of caption to image
16:55:30 <tzviya> ...some reading systems did not assume the need to see a whole image
16:55:41 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:55:49 <tzviya> ...important use case is need to keep image and caption together
16:56:25 <tzviya> dave: as increase font size, how much should image be allowed to decrease?
16:56:44 <mgylling> ack Bill_Kasdorf
16:56:46 <Bill_Kasdorf> q-
16:57:01 <tzviya> markus: Koji mentioned in tokyo that Kobo wanted to exclude captions from font adjustments to help avoid this problem
16:57:29 <tzviya> dave: will be a large number of issues around tables
16:58:20 <tzviya> ...ben has done a lot of research around tables. Even simple areas such simple areas as aligning on decimal is important
16:58:58 <tzviya> Markus: we spoke about involving alan and adobe in this document especially in area of advanced adaptive layout
16:59:13 <tzviya> alan: not yet, will discuss with colleagues
16:59:24 <tzviya> markus: what is timeline for first public draft?
16:59:34 <ivan> q+
16:59:52 <tzviya> dave: still seems early for that. Nothing on tables yet.. Not much on images yet
16:59:59 <mgylling> ack ivan
17:00:27 <tzviya> ivan: a published draft may include place holders
17:01:02 <tzviya> ...would the sections that have meat be improved by public review and comments?
17:01:23 <tzviya> dave: I'm fine with public comments as long as people know this is a work in progress
17:01:40 <tzviya> ...especially areas like drop caps
17:01:55 <JeanK> +1
17:02:01 <tzviya> markus: 2 of task forces are closer to publicizing something - this group and annotations
17:02:07 <JeanK> q+
17:02:34 <tzviya> markus: what should we do next week?
17:02:46 <Zakim> -Stearns
17:03:00 <tzviya> ...we could continue with this, but I think we should go a full round?
17:03:03 <astearns> (had to drop for another meeting)
17:03:10 <Zakim> -gcapiel
17:03:10 <Luc> +1
17:03:14 <mgylling> ack JeanK
17:03:16 <tzviya> Jean: I think we should stick with this subject
17:03:43 <tzviya> ...there's a whole group of people we haven't spoken to, font people, web typography
17:04:13 <gcapiel1> gcapiel1 has joined #dpub
17:04:45 <tzviya> dave: I would love to get contributions from the front lines of web typography
17:04:55 <Luc> Me too
17:05:10 <tzviya> ivan: that is why pushing out the doc as soon as possible is a good idea
17:06:41 <tzviya> jean: my concern about pushing this out too early is that it will look like an incomplete document and it will reflect badly
17:07:06 <tzviya> ivan: it will look like a working draft
17:07:37 <tzviya> markus: we need to know who these organizations are. can you (Jean) help?
17:08:07 <tzviya> jean: many of us will be at the ebook hack over weekend and digital book world next week
17:08:30 <brady_duga> brady_duga has joined #dpub
17:08:40 <tzviya> markus: should we do another task force or continue with this next week?
17:08:41 <JeanK> Start here... : http://tdc.org/
17:08:45 <prashant> prashant has joined #dpub
17:09:10 <tzviya> dave: It seems there is pent up demand to continue
17:09:28 <tzviya> markus: is DBW on Monday? Who will be able to attend?
17:10:01 <tzviya> next meeting on Monday 13 Jan
17:10:09 <Zakim> -duga
17:10:10 <Zakim> -Liza
17:10:10 <Zakim> -Suzanne_Taylor
17:10:10 <Zakim> -fjh
17:10:11 <Zakim> -madi
17:10:11 <Zakim> -??P24
17:10:12 <Zakim> -benjaminsko
17:10:12 <Zakim> -dauwhe
17:10:12 <Zakim> -Vlad
17:10:13 <Zakim> -laudrain
17:10:13 <Zakim> -Tzviya
17:10:14 <Zakim> -mgylling
17:10:14 <Zakim> -Ivan
17:10:16 <Zakim> -azaroth
17:10:16 <Zakim> -Liam
17:10:16 <Zakim> -JeanKaplansky
17:10:18 <fjh> fjh has left #dpub
17:10:21 <phil_m> phil_m has left #dpub
17:10:32 <Zakim> -Bill_Kasdorf
17:10:38 <Zakim> -tmichel
17:10:39 <Zakim> SW_DPUB-IG()11:00AM has ended
17:10:39 <Zakim> Attendees were Liza, +33.1.41.23.aaaa, Ivan, dauwhe, mgylling, Tzviya, laudrain, azaroth, fjh, +1.347.633.aabb, benjaminsko, Stearns, duga, gcapiel, JeanKaplansky, Laura_Fowler,
17:10:39 <Zakim> ... tmichel, Vlad, Suzanne_Taylor, madi, Liam, Bill_Kasdorf
17:11:24 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:11:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/01/06-dpub-minutes.html ivan
17:24:24 <JeanK> JeanK has left #dpub
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