Meeting Record

edit

XHTML2 WG Virtual FtF Day 3

Minutes of 19 June 2008

Agenda

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2008-06-FtF-Agenda0401

Present

Roland Merrick, Steven Pemberton, Tina Holmboe, Gregory Rosmaita, Alessio Cartocci, Toshihiko Yamakami, Shane McCarron

Chair

Roland Merrick

Scribe

Steven Pemberton, Gregory Rosmaita

IRC Log

Original

Resolutions

The WG recognises that we are chartered to maintain and develop the XHTML series, and the HTML5 specification should therefore not contain text that makes it appear differently link
Issue a new XHTML2 Public Working Draft link
Issue 7733 closed by responding "embedded content is not in the stream" link
Incorporate ITS (International Tag Set) into XHTML2 Doctype Section link
transition CURIEs to CR link

Topics

HTML5 and XHTML 1.*
RDFa
2 min break ===
bacl at xx:25 ===
XHTML2
BREAK FOR 66 MINUTES FOR LUNCH ======
FIFTEEN MINUTE BREAK =============
CURIEs Update
XHTML Access
XHTML Role
ADJOURN ==========

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07:45:12 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-irc ←

07:45:20 <Steven> rrsagent, make log public

Steven Pemberton: rrsagent, make log public ←

07:45:27 <Steven> zakim, this will be xhtml

Steven Pemberton: zakim, this will be xhtml ←

07:45:27 <Zakim> ok, Steven; I see IA_XHTML2()4:00AM scheduled to start in 15 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven; I see IA_XHTML2()4:00AM scheduled to start in 15 minutes ←

07:45:51 <Steven> Meeting: XHTML2 WG Virtual FtF Day 3

07:45:55 <Steven> Chair: Roland

07:50:34 <Steven> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2008-06-FtF-Agenda0401

07:50:43 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes

(No events recorded for 5 minutes)

Steven Pemberton: rrsagent, make minutes ←

07:50:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html Steven

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html Steven ←

08:01:01 <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()4:00AM has now started

(No events recorded for 10 minutes)

Zakim IRC Bot: IA_XHTML2()4:00AM has now started ←

08:01:08 <Zakim> +Roland

Zakim IRC Bot: +Roland ←

08:01:14 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617

Steven Pemberton: zakim, dial steven-617 ←

08:01:16 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven; the call is being made ←

08:01:16 <Zakim> +Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: +Steven ←

08:01:33 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita

Zakim IRC Bot: +Gregory_Rosmaita ←

08:02:17 <Zakim> +Tina

Zakim IRC Bot: +Tina ←

08:03:59 <ShaneM> omw

Shane McCarron: omw ←

08:04:36 <Zakim> +ShaneM

Zakim IRC Bot: +ShaneM ←

08:04:51 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/32107/xhtml2summer08/

Steven Pemberton: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/32107/xhtml2summer08/ ←

08:06:13 <yamx> Sorry, late. I will call in.

Scribe problem: the name 'yamx' does not match any of the 22 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alessio Cartocci Alexander Graf Christina Bottomley Elias Torres Gerrie Shults Gregory Rosmaita John Kugelman Luca Mascaro Mark Birbeck Masataka Yakura Michael Rawling Richard Schwerdtfeger Roland Merrick Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer Shane McCarron Steven Pemberton Susan Borgrink Tina Holmboe Toshihiko Yamakami Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown yamx: Sorry, late. I will call in. ←

08:06:48 <Zakim> +??P4

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P4 ←

08:07:06 <yamx> Zakim, ??P4 is yamx

Unknown yamx: Zakim, ??P4 is yamx ←

08:07:06 <Zakim> +yamx; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +yamx; got it ←

08:08:20 <oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Jun/0045.html

Gregory Rosmaita: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Jun/0045.html ←

08:10:27 <Steven> Topic: HTML5 and XHTML 1.*

1. HTML5 and XHTML 1.*

08:10:42 <oedipus> associated issue: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/52

Gregory Rosmaita: associated issue: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/52 ←

08:11:44 <ShaneM> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/products/1

Shane McCarron: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/products/1 ←

08:11:54 <ShaneM> is all the issues

Shane McCarron: is all the issues ←

08:13:08 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/2007/03/HTML-WG-charter.html

Steven Pemberton: http://www.w3.org/2007/03/HTML-WG-charter.html ←

08:13:25 <oedipus> HTML5 Diff From HTML4 WG Note: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/diff/

Gregory Rosmaita: HTML5 Diff From HTML4 WG Note: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/diff/ ←

08:13:45 <Steven> The word "XHTML" doesn't appear in their charter

Steven Pemberton: The word "XHTML" doesn't appear in their charter ←

08:13:51 <oedipus> "The HTML 5 language has a "custom" HTML syntax that is compatible with HTML 4 and XHTML1 documents published on the Web, but is not compatible with the more esoteric SGML features of HTML 4, such as <em/content/. Documents using this "custom" syntax must be served with the text/html MIME type"

Gregory Rosmaita: "The HTML 5 language has a "custom" HTML syntax that is compatible with HTML 4 and XHTML1 documents published on the Web, but is not compatible with the more esoteric SGML features of HTML 4, such as <em/content/. Documents using this "custom" syntax must be served with the text/html MIME type" ←

08:14:21 <oedipus> The other syntax that can be used for HTML 5 is XML. This syntax is compatible with XHTML1 documents and implementations. Documents using this syntax need to be served with an XML MIME type and elements need to be put in the http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml namespace following the rules set forth by the XML specifications. [XML]

Gregory Rosmaita: The other syntax that can be used for HTML 5 is XML. This syntax is compatible with XHTML1 documents and implementations. Documents using this syntax need to be served with an XML MIME type and elements need to be put in the http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml namespace following the rules set forth by the XML specifications. [XML] ←

08:14:21 <oedipus> Below is an example document that conforms to the XML syntax of HTML 5. Note that XML documents must have an XML MIME type such as application/xhtml+xml or application/xml.

Gregory Rosmaita: Below is an example document that conforms to the XML syntax of HTML 5. Note that XML documents must have an XML MIME type such as application/xhtml+xml or application/xml. ←

08:22:01 <yamx> I am wondering... hmmm..

(No events recorded for 7 minutes)

Unknown yamx: I am wondering... hmmm.. ←

08:22:19 <yamx> Their notification is not productive...

Unknown yamx: Their notification is not productive... ←

08:24:08 <Steven_> "XHTML 1.1 - Module-based XHTML (REC) - track errata, publish third edition as required"

Steven Pemberton: "XHTML 1.1 - Module-based XHTML (REC) - track errata, publish third edition as required" ←

08:25:28 <oedipus> "This specification is intended to replace XHTML 1.0 as the normative definition of the XML serialisation of the HTML vocabulary. [XHTML10]"

Gregory Rosmaita: "This specification is intended to replace XHTML 1.0 as the normative definition of the XML serialisation of the HTML vocabulary. [XHTML10]" ←

08:28:04 <ShaneM> I believe our charter is clear - we are responsible for maintaining and evolving XHTML 1 and XHTML 2.  The HTML Working Group's charter does not mention XHTML at all.

Shane McCarron: I believe our charter is clear - we are responsible for maintaining and evolving XHTML 1 and XHTML 2. The HTML Working Group's charter does not mention XHTML at all. ←

08:28:16 <yamx> I agree with Shane.

Unknown yamx: I agree with Shane. ←

08:29:09 <Steven_> Scribe: Steven

(Scribe set to Steven Pemberton)

08:29:26 <oedipus> HTML WG charter states: "An extensible, serialized form of such a language, using XML"

Gregory Rosmaita: HTML WG charter states: "An extensible, serialized form of such a language, using XML" ←

08:29:45 <oedipus> "The HTML WG is encouraged to provide a mechanism to permit independently developed vocabularies such as Internationalization Tag Set (ITS), Ruby, and RDFa to be mixed into HTML documents. Whether this occurs through the extensibility mechanism of XML, whether it is also allowed in the classic HTML serialization, and whether it uses the DTD and Schema modularization techniques, is for the HTML WG to determine."

Gregory Rosmaita: "The HTML WG is encouraged to provide a mechanism to permit independently developed vocabularies such as Internationalization Tag Set (ITS), Ruby, and RDFa to be mixed into HTML documents. Whether this occurs through the extensibility mechanism of XML, whether it is also allowed in the classic HTML serialization, and whether it uses the DTD and Schema modularization techniques, is for the HTML WG to determine." ←

08:29:48 <Steven_> Roland: Our charter mentions work on XHTML, inbcluding 1.0

Roland Merrick: Our charter mentions work on XHTML, including 1.0 ←

08:29:54 <Steven_> s/inb/in/

08:30:24 <Steven_> Roland: So if we create a 1.2 that would crystalise the situation

Roland Merrick: So if we create a 1.2 that would crystalise the situation ←

08:30:29 <Steven_> Shane: I agree

Shane McCarron: I agree ←

08:30:42 <Steven_> ... I have it in writing from Chris Lilley that we can do a 1.2

... I have it in writing from Chris Lilley that we can do a 1.2 ←

08:31:34 <oedipus> institutional angst is but the tip of the existential iceberg

Gregory Rosmaita: institutional angst is but the tip of the existential iceberg ←

08:32:57 <Steven_> Roland: We should raise it at the HCG

Roland Merrick: We should raise it at the HCG ←

08:33:06 <Steven_> ... it is clearly in the charters

... it is clearly in the charters ←

08:33:22 <Steven_> Tina: Regarding 1.2

Tina Holmboe: Regarding 1.2 ←

08:34:01 <Steven_> ... quoting above, it says that HTML5 replaces XHTML 1.0

... quoting above, it says that HTML5 replaces XHTML 1.0 ←

08:34:27 <Steven_> ... so what about XHTML2?

... so what about XHTML2? ←

08:34:27 <yamx> They cannot replace XHTML2...

Unknown yamx: They cannot replace XHTML2... ←

08:34:43 <Steven_> Shane: They are trying to orphan XHTML2

Shane McCarron: They are trying to orphan XHTML2 ←

08:35:08 <yamx> They will change "Relationship to XHTML 1.x" to "Relationship to XHTML m.n". :-)

Unknown yamx: They will change "Relationship to XHTML 1.x" to "Relationship to XHTML m.n". :-) ←

08:35:57 <Steven_> ... we need to respond forcefully

... we need to respond forcefully ←

08:36:27 <Steven_> Shane: By charter we are responsible for the XHTML series, and HTML5 is not chartered to do that

Shane McCarron: By charter we are responsible for the XHTML series, and HTML5 is not chartered to do that ←

08:37:55 <Steven_> Tina: Is Mike's response a formal one from the WG?

Tina Holmboe: Is Mike's response a formal one from the WG? ←

08:38:07 <Steven_> Gregory: We haven't discussed it in the group

Gregory Rosmaita: We haven't discussed it in the group ←

08:38:18 <Steven_> Shane: So they made a change without discussion

Shane McCarron: So they made the change without discussion ←

08:38:24 <Steven_> s/ a / the /

08:38:38 <Steven_> Tina: We should reply that we are chartered to do that work

Tina Holmboe: We should reply that we are chartered to do that work ←

08:38:40 <yamx> ... I just cannot understand how they work in  HTML5....

Unknown yamx: ... I just cannot understand how they work in HTML5.... ←

08:39:03 <Steven_> Roland: We should keep it short, and not debate the points

Roland Merrick: We should keep it short, and not debate the points ←

08:39:06 <oedipus> root of problem: (from Status of this Document) - "The latest stable version of the editor's draft of this specification is always available on the W3C CVS server and in the WHATWG Subversion repository. The latest editor's working copy (which may contain unfinished text in the process of being prepared) is available on the WHATWG site. "

Gregory Rosmaita: root of problem: (from Status of this Document) - "The latest stable version of the editor's draft of this specification is always available on the W3C CVS server and in the WHATWG Subversion repository. The latest editor's working copy (which may contain unfinished text in the process of being prepared) is available on the WHATWG site. " ←

08:39:42 <Steven_> Shane: We should reply that they should remove all text that gives the impression that they are producing XHTML

Shane McCarron: We should reply that they should remove all text that gives the impression that they are producing XHTML ←

08:40:47 <yamx> I agree.

Unknown yamx: I agree. ←

08:40:52 <oedipus> amen

Gregory Rosmaita: amen ←

08:41:01 <yamx> I support the resolution.

Unknown yamx: I support the resolution. ←

08:41:41 <ShaneM> Rationale... they are introducing confusion in the marketplace and damaging the brand that is XHTML.  This is harmful and misleading.

Shane McCarron: Rationale... they are introducing confusion in the marketplace and damaging the brand that is XHTML. This is harmful and misleading. ←

08:41:53 <Steven_> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: The WG recognises that we are chartered to maintain and develop the XHTML series, and the HTML5 specification should therefore not contain text that makes it appear differently

PROPOSED RESOLUTION: The WG recognises that we are chartered to maintain and develop the XHTML series, and the HTML5 specification should therefore not contain text that makes it appear differently ←

08:42:09 <yamx> yes.

Unknown yamx: yes. ←

08:42:10 <Steven_> RESOLUTION: The WG recognises that we are chartered to maintain and develop the XHTML series, and the HTML5 specification should therefore not contain text that makes it appear differently

RESOLVED: The WG recognises that we are chartered to maintain and develop the XHTML series, and the HTML5 specification should therefore not contain text that makes it appear differently ←

08:42:15 <oedipus> +1

Gregory Rosmaita: +1 ←

08:42:17 <Tina> +1

Tina Holmboe: +1 ←

08:42:25 <ShaneM> In particular, HTML5 is NOT empowered to supercede XHTML *anything*

Shane McCarron: In particular, HTML5 is NOT empowered to supercede XHTML *anything* ←

08:42:37 <Steven_> ACTION: Roland to reply to HTML5 WG to communicate our resolution on XHTML naming

ACTION: Roland to reply to HTML5 WG to communicate our resolution on XHTML naming ←

08:42:43 <Steven_> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

08:42:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html Steven_

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html Steven_ ←

08:43:26 <Steven_> s/Scribe: Steven/Scribe: Steven_/

08:43:32 <Steven_> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

08:43:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html Steven_

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html Steven_ ←

08:43:57 <Steven> Scribe: Steven

08:44:55 <ShaneM> Proposal: Re-issue XHTML 1.0 removing appendix C and pointing to XHTMLMIME.

PROPOSED: Re-issue XHTML 1.0 removing appendix C and pointing to XHTMLMIME. ←

08:44:57 <oedipus> that will be VERY helpful

Gregory Rosmaita: that will be VERY helpful ←

08:45:14 <Steven> Shane: Would that be a good idea?

Shane McCarron: Would that be a good idea? ←

08:45:19 <Steven> Gregory: Yes

Gregory Rosmaita: Yes ←

08:45:32 <Steven> Steven: We are chartered to do it

Steven Pemberton: We are chartered to do it ←

08:46:19 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

08:46:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html Steven

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html Steven ←

08:46:45 <Steven> Topic: RDFa

2. RDFa

08:46:55 <Steven> Roland: What do we have to do?

Roland Merrick: What do we have to do? ←

08:47:17 <ShaneM> Proposed CR end date for RDFa is 18 July

Shane McCarron: Proposed CR end date for RDFa is 18 July ←

08:48:12 <Steven> Steven: There are lots of implementations

Steven Pemberton: There are lots of implementations ←

08:48:21 <Steven> ... so the CR period will be short

... so the CR period will be short ←

08:48:30 <Steven> ... we have XHTML 1.1+RDFa

... we have XHTML 1.1+RDFa ←

08:48:44 <Steven> ... and we can merge that with @role and so on, and create 1.2

... and we can merge that with @role and so on, and create 1.2 ←

08:50:38 <Steven> Roland: Is the media type issue resolved?

Roland Merrick: Is the media type issue resolved? ←

08:50:43 <Steven> Shane: Maybe not

Shane McCarron: Maybe not ←

08:51:19 <Steven> Steven: Not clear. TimBL has sent a new message; not clear if that reopens the issue

Steven Pemberton: Not clear. TimBL has sent a new message; not clear if that reopens the issue ←

08:52:13 <Steven> Shane: He has an issue about how you ask the server for the RDF involved with a document

Shane McCarron: He has an issue about how you ask the server for the RDF involved with a document ←

08:52:28 <Steven> ... but I think the media type issue is solved

... but I think the media type issue is solved ←

08:53:02 <Steven> ... the peripheral issue is about 'announcement'; how an author says that a document contains RDF

... the peripheral issue is about 'announcement'; how an author says that a document contains RDF ←

08:53:50 <Steven> ... Ralph in his recent message

... Ralph in his recent message ←

08:53:56 <oedipus> "If saying SHOULD for *any* of the 3 document conformance options 4, 5, or 6 leaves the reader with the impression that NOT doing any of the three means the author has NOT intended to state these triples then I would agree with your concern. However, these SHOULDs are there for 3 different reasons."

Gregory Rosmaita: "If saying SHOULD for *any* of the 3 document conformance options 4, 5, or 6 leaves the reader with the impression that NOT doing any of the three means the author has NOT intended to state these triples then I would agree with your concern. However, these SHOULDs are there for 3 different reasons." ←

08:54:01 <Steven> ... http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Jun/0056.html

... http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Jun/0056.html ←

08:54:15 <Steven> ... suggests that authors MAY add version information

... suggests that authors MAY add version information ←

08:54:21 <Steven> ... any opinions?

... any opinions? ←

08:55:17 <Steven> ... I've never used MAY in this context

... I've never used MAY in this context ←

08:56:04 <Steven> Steven: I have trouble understanding what Tim really wants

Steven Pemberton: I have trouble understanding what Tim really wants ←

08:56:10 <oedipus> RFC2119 def of MAY: This word, or the adjective "OPTIONAL", mean that an item is truly optional. One vendor may choose to include the item because a particular marketplace requires it or because the vendor feels that it enhances the product while another vendor may omit the same item. An implementation which does not include a particular option MUST be prepared to interoperate with another implementation which does include the option, though perhaps with red

Gregory Rosmaita: RFC2119 def of MAY: This word, or the adjective "OPTIONAL", mean that an item is truly optional. One vendor may choose to include the item because a particular marketplace requires it or because the vendor feels that it enhances the product while another vendor may omit the same item. An implementation which does not include a particular option MUST be prepared to interoperate with another implementation which does include the option, though perhaps with red ←

08:56:17 <Steven> Shane: I mean more generally, what does it mean to say MAY for the author

Shane McCarron: I mean more generally, what does it mean to say MAY for the author ←

08:56:53 <ShaneM> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-rdfa-syntax-20080616/#docconf

Shane McCarron: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-rdfa-syntax-20080616/#docconf ←

08:57:12 <oedipus> GJR thinks SHOULD should remain SHOULD

Gregory Rosmaita: GJR thinks SHOULD should remain SHOULD ←

08:59:59 <Steven> Steven: Ralph seems to want to be able to extract RDF from a doc without a DOCTYPE, or a version, or a profile

Steven Pemberton: Ralph seems to want to be able to extract RDF from a doc without a DOCTYPE, or a version, or a profile ←

09:00:05 <Steven> Shane: Yes, and he thinks Tim does too

Shane McCarron: Yes, and he thinks Tim does too ←

09:00:14 <yamx> I agree with Steven on putting "MAY" for author conformance... But maybe it is because usually we avoid any document conformance....

Unknown yamx: I agree with Steven on putting "MAY" for author conformance... But maybe it is because usually we avoid any document conformance.... ←

09:00:15 <oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Jun/0054.html

Gregory Rosmaita: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Jun/0054.html ←

09:00:24 <Steven> Shane: But I don't agree that that is what Tim wants

Shane McCarron: But I don't agree that that is what Tim wants ←

09:00:38 <Steven> ... he seems to be a big supporter of GRDDL

... he seems to be a big supporter of GRDDL ←

09:01:56 <oedipus> "You could say, (2) "All servers MUST put the namespace GRDDL, and clients MAY use namespace GRDDL, or may use inherent knowledge of the spec." That would work in all cases." [...] "So I suspect you want go with (2). To define RDFa conformance. Obviously, people might want to make documents in the short term which work equally well by conforming to the GRDDL spec (document profile method) and by RDFa but that is a distraction."

Gregory Rosmaita: "You could say, (2) "All servers MUST put the namespace GRDDL, and clients MAY use namespace GRDDL, or may use inherent knowledge of the spec." That would work in all cases." [...] "So I suspect you want go with (2). To define RDFa conformance. Obviously, people might want to make documents in the short term which work equally well by conforming to the GRDDL spec (document profile method) and by RDFa but that is a distraction." ←

09:01:59 <Steven> Steven: GRDDL is not harmful to RDFa

Steven Pemberton: GRDDL is not harmful to RDFa ←

09:02:30 <Steven> Shane: CR may be held up by Tim's comment

Shane McCarron: CR may be held up by Tim's comment ←

09:02:56 <Steven> ... we may be asked to quickly decide on changes to the conformance clause to fix this objection

... we may be asked to quickly decide on changes to the conformance clause to fix this objection ←

09:06:04 <yamx> see you later.

Unknown yamx: see you later. ←

09:06:07 <Steven> ... the TF has been told verbally that the changes they had made would satisfy Tim's objection.

... the TF has been told verbally that the changes they had made would satisfy Tim's objection. ←

09:06:10 <Zakim> -ShaneM

Zakim IRC Bot: -ShaneM ←

09:06:12 <Steven> ==== 2 min break ===

3. 2 min break ===

09:06:18 <Zakim> -yamx

Zakim IRC Bot: -yamx ←

09:06:23 <Steven> === bacl at xx:25 ===

4. bacl at xx:25 ===

09:06:27 <Zakim> -Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: -Steven ←

09:06:33 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita

Zakim IRC Bot: -Gregory_Rosmaita ←

09:10:32 <oedipus> if i don't use a speaker phone, i often inadvertantly cover the mouthpiece so it is easier for others if i use speakerphone

Gregory Rosmaita: if i don't use a speaker phone, i often inadvertantly cover the mouthpiece so it is easier for others if i use speakerphone ←

09:23:28 <Roland> rrsagent, make minutes

(No events recorded for 12 minutes)

Roland Merrick: rrsagent, make minutes ←

09:23:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html Roland

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html Roland ←

09:24:25 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita

Zakim IRC Bot: +Gregory_Rosmaita ←

09:25:20 <Zakim> +??P3

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P3 ←

09:25:30 <alessio> zakim, PP3 is Alessio

Alessio Cartocci: zakim, PP3 is Alessio ←

09:25:30 <Zakim> sorry, alessio, I do not recognize a party named 'PP3'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, alessio, I do not recognize a party named 'PP3' ←

09:25:36 <alessio> zakim, ??PP3 is Alessio

Alessio Cartocci: zakim, ??PP3 is Alessio ←

09:25:36 <Zakim> sorry, alessio, I do not recognize a party named '??PP3'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, alessio, I do not recognize a party named '??PP3' ←

09:25:43 <alessio> zakim, ??P3 is Alessio

Alessio Cartocci: zakim, ??P3 is Alessio ←

09:25:43 <Zakim> +Alessio; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Alessio; got it ←

09:26:20 <Zakim> +??P4

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P4 ←

09:26:35 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617

zakim, dial steven-617 ←

09:26:35 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven; the call is being made ←

09:26:37 <Zakim> +Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: +Steven ←

09:26:38 <Zakim> +ShaneM

Zakim IRC Bot: +ShaneM ←

09:26:46 <yamx> alessio, p3!

Unknown yamx: alessio, p3! ←

09:26:58 <Steven> zakim, who is here?

zakim, who is here? ←

09:26:58 <Zakim> On the phone I see Roland, Steven, Tina, Gregory_Rosmaita, Alessio, ??P4, ShaneM

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Roland, Steven, Tina, Gregory_Rosmaita, Alessio, ??P4, ShaneM ←

09:27:00 <Zakim> On IRC I see alessio, Lachy, Steven, yamx, Roland, oedipus, RRSAgent, Zakim, Tina, deane, ShaneM

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see alessio, Lachy, Steven, yamx, Roland, oedipus, RRSAgent, Zakim, Tina, deane, ShaneM ←

09:27:06 <Steven> zakim, ??P4 is Yam

zakim, ??P4 is Yam ←

09:27:06 <Zakim> +Yam; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Yam; got it ←

09:27:11 <yamx> Thanks.

Unknown yamx: Thanks. ←

09:27:15 <Steven> rrsgent, make minutes

rrsgent, make minutes ←

09:27:21 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

09:27:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html Steven

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html Steven ←

09:28:07 <Steven> zakim, who is here?

zakim, who is here? ←

09:28:07 <Zakim> On the phone I see Roland, Steven, Tina, Gregory_Rosmaita, Alessio, Yam, ShaneM

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Roland, Steven, Tina, Gregory_Rosmaita, Alessio, Yam, ShaneM ←

09:28:07 <oedipus> FYI: open accessibility (open a11y) uses XHTML 1.0 strict but is migrating to 1.1+RDFa for specifications and documents

Scribe problem: the name 'FYI' does not match any of the 22 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alessio Cartocci Alexander Graf Christina Bottomley Elias Torres Gerrie Shults Gregory Rosmaita John Kugelman Luca Mascaro Mark Birbeck Masataka Yakura Michael Rawling Richard Schwerdtfeger Roland Merrick Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer Shane McCarron Steven Pemberton Susan Borgrink Tina Holmboe Toshihiko Yamakami Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown FYI: open accessibility (open a11y) uses XHTML 1.0 strict but is migrating to 1.1+RDFa for specifications and documents [ Scribe Assist by Gregory Rosmaita ] ←

09:28:09 <Zakim> On IRC I see alessio, Lachy, Steven, yamx, Roland, oedipus, RRSAgent, Zakim, Tina, deane, ShaneM

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see alessio, Lachy, Steven, yamx, Roland, oedipus, RRSAgent, Zakim, Tina, deane, ShaneM ←

09:28:16 <Steven> Present: Roland, Steven, Tina, Gregory_Rosmaita, Alessio, Yam, ShaneM

09:31:07 <Steven> ACTION: Steven to start an implementation page on the wiki

ACTION: Steven to start an implementation page on the wiki ←

09:33:13 <oedipus> FY: http://xml.house.gov/drafting.htm

Scribe problem: the name 'FYI' does not match any of the 10 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Roland Merrick Steven Pemberton Tina Holmboe Gregory Rosmaita Alessio Cartocci Toshihiko Yamakami Shane McCarron Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown FYI: http://xml.house.gov/drafting.htm [ Scribe Assist by Gregory Rosmaita ] ←

09:33:24 <oedipus> s/FY:/FYI:

09:33:37 <alessio> gregory, as IWA/HWG we are present in that WG with three people :)

Alessio Cartocci: gregory, as IWA/HWG we are present in that WG with three people :) ←

09:33:46 <oedipus> hooray!

Gregory Rosmaita: hooray! ←

09:33:47 <Steven> Topic: XHTML2

5. XHTML2

09:34:35 <Roland> Venice: http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-minutes.html#item06

Scribe problem: the name 'Venice' does not match any of the 10 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Roland Merrick Steven Pemberton Tina Holmboe Gregory Rosmaita Alessio Cartocci Toshihiko Yamakami Shane McCarron Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Venice: http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-minutes.html#item06 [ Scribe Assist by Roland Merrick ] ←

09:35:00 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2007/ED-xhtml2-20071024/

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2007/ED-xhtml2-20071024/ ←

09:36:39 <oedipus> GJR would like to make some specific suggestions (e.g. use global @src on Q for URI/IDREF and redefine @cite to contain human parseable info of the type of info encased in CITE element )

Gregory Rosmaita: GJR would like to make some specific suggestions (e.g. use global @src on Q for URI/IDREF and redefine @cite to contain human parseable info of the type of info encased in CITE element ) ←

09:36:58 <Steven> Roland: We still need to do some work

Roland Merrick: We still need to do some work ←

09:37:09 <Steven> Steven: RDFa has been the main gating factor

Steven Pemberton: RDFa has been the main gating factor ←

09:37:12 <oedipus> q+ to ask what is most efficacious feedback stream for XHTML2?

Gregory Rosmaita: q+ to ask what is most efficacious feedback stream for XHTML2? ←

09:37:30 <Steven> ... since we reference RDFa normatively, we have to follow it one step behind

... since we reference RDFa normatively, we have to follow it one step behind ←

09:37:32 <oedipus> scribe: oedipus

(Scribe set to Gregory Rosmaita)

09:37:42 <oedipus> SM: haven't put out PWD in 2 years

Shane McCarron: haven't put out PWD in 2 years ←

09:38:05 <oedipus> SM: everytime propose new PWD, get objections -- need to get a snapshot up

Shane McCarron: everytime propose new PWD, get objections -- need to get a snapshot up ←

09:38:14 <oedipus> SM: updates from 2 years ago need to be effected

Shane McCarron: updates from 2 years ago need to be effected ←

09:38:26 <oedipus> RESOLVED: Issue a new XHTML2 Public Working Draft

RESOLVED: Issue a new XHTML2 Public Working Draft ←

09:38:28 <yamx> no objection from me.

Scribe problem: the name 'yamx' does not match any of the 10 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Roland Merrick Steven Pemberton Tina Holmboe Gregory Rosmaita Alessio Cartocci Toshihiko Yamakami Shane McCarron Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown yamx: no objection from me. ←

09:38:33 <oedipus> +1

+1 ←

09:38:44 <oedipus> RM: next steps after publication?

Roland Merrick: next steps after publication? ←

09:38:49 <Steven> +1

Steven Pemberton: +1 ←

09:38:56 <alessio> +1

Alessio Cartocci: +1 ←

09:38:59 <Tina> +1

Tina Holmboe: +1 ←

09:39:01 <oedipus> RM: do we want XHTML2 to be all-encompasing or refer to modules

Roland Merrick: do we want XHTML2 to be all-encompasing or refer to modules ←

09:39:15 <oedipus> SP: refer to modules - actually, depends on what you mean

Steven Pemberton: refer to modules - actually, depends on what you mean ←

09:39:41 <Steven> Yes, modules

Steven Pemberton: Yes, modules ←

09:39:50 <Steven> + refer to XForms 1.1

Steven Pemberton: + refer to XForms 1.1 ←

09:39:52 <oedipus> RM: XML Events on spec track, Access on spec track, etc. -- don't want to have to go through last call again - XHTML2 should incorporate modules externally defined

Roland Merrick: XML Events on spec track, Access on spec track, etc. -- don't want to have to go through last call again - XHTML2 should incorporate modules externally defined ←

09:39:57 <Steven> RDFa

Steven Pemberton: RDFa ←

09:40:02 <oedipus> SP: include RDFa and XForms 1.1

Steven Pemberton: include RDFa and XForms 1.1 ←

09:40:15 <Steven> + access + role

Steven Pemberton: + access + role ←

09:41:04 <Steven> + XML Events

Steven Pemberton: + XML Events ←

09:42:20 <oedipus> SM: had rule that XHTML author should be able to use XHTML2 spec to get enough info to write documents; should be able to find content model and syntax in XHTML2 - misguided - people write books to do that - can point to other specs to help keep in sync

Shane McCarron: had rule that XHTML author should be able to use XHTML2 spec to get enough info to write documents; should be able to find content model and syntax in XHTML2 - misguided - people write books to do that - can point to other specs to help keep in sync ←

09:42:44 <Steven> I can live with that if there are good enough links to definitions of elements and attributes elsewhere

Steven Pemberton: I can live with that if there are good enough links to definitions of elements and attributes elsewhere ←

09:42:45 <oedipus> RM: Events, Handlers and Script modules (new XML Events in 3 Modules)

Roland Merrick: Events, Handlers and Script modules (new XML Events in 3 Modules) ←

09:43:04 <ShaneM> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2007/ED-xhtml2-20071024/xhtml2-doctype.html#s_doctype

Shane McCarron: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2007/ED-xhtml2-20071024/xhtml2-doctype.html#s_doctype ←

09:43:08 <oedipus> SM: if want to change philosophy of what ought to be in spec, should do consciously

Shane McCarron: if want to change philosophy of what ought to be in spec, should do consciously ←

09:43:44 <oedipus> SM: need to update section cited above and remove some other chapters - should be sufficient

Shane McCarron: need to update section cited above and remove some other chapters - should be sufficient ←

09:44:03 <oedipus> RM: minimal work to publish new PWD that refers to latest state of things been driving forward

Roland Merrick: minimal work to publish new PWD that refers to latest state of things been driving forward ←

09:44:33 <oedipus> ACTION: ShaneM - incorporate Access, Role, XML Events (in 3 modules: Events, Handlers, Script), and RDFa modules through external reference to XHTML2?

ACTION: ShaneM - incorporate Access, Role, XML Events (in 3 modules: Events, Handlers, Script), and RDFa modules through external reference to XHTML2? ←

09:44:39 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

09:44:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←

09:44:43 <Steven> q+

Steven Pemberton: q+ ←

09:44:49 <oedipus> RM: how long will that take, shane?

Roland Merrick: how long will that take, shane? ←

09:44:59 <oedipus> SM: can have by monday

Shane McCarron: can have by monday ←

09:45:07 <oedipus> RM: new PWD by end of june

Roland Merrick: new PWD by end of june ←

09:45:10 <oedipus> SM: perfect

Shane McCarron: perfect ←

09:45:12 <oedipus> ack me

ack me ←

09:45:12 <Zakim> oedipus, you wanted to ask what is most efficacious feedback stream for XHTML2?

Zakim IRC Bot: oedipus, you wanted to ask what is most efficacious feedback stream for XHTML2? ←

09:46:04 <yamx> q+

Unknown yamx: q+ ←

09:46:20 <oedipus> SP: send to WG as email with suggestions and examples

Steven Pemberton: send to WG as email with suggestions and examples ←

09:46:51 <oedipus> SP: one implementation strategy is to try and create set of javascripts that implement XHTML2 - XHTML2 with script to work in existing browsers

Steven Pemberton: one implementation strategy is to try and create set of javascripts that implement XHTML2 - XHTML2 with script to work in existing browsers ←

09:47:35 <oedipus> SP: half of that is on the way with IBM's ubiquity -- XForms, but the heart of it - a lot can be done with CSS in XHTML2 that authors are familiar with, remaining hard bits are HREF and SRC everywhere

Steven Pemberton: half of that is on the way with IBM's ubiquity -- XForms, but the heart of it - a lot can be done with CSS in XHTML2 that authors are familiar with, remaining hard bits are HREF and SRC everywhere ←

09:47:58 <oedipus> SP: good place to start working is to create bit of script or script library that supports HREF and SRC everywhere

Steven Pemberton: good place to start working is to create bit of script or script library that supports HREF and SRC everywhere ←

09:48:07 <oedipus> Alessio: i will try to write one

Alessio Cartocci: i will try to write one ←

09:48:27 <oedipus> Alessio: Access module support in XBL - can transfer solution

Alessio Cartocci: Access module support in XBL - can transfer solution ←

09:48:40 <oedipus> SM: XML Events 2 another challanging bit

Shane McCarron: XML Events 2 another challanging bit ←

09:48:59 <oedipus> SP: XForms does XML Events, so ubiquity will move to XML Events 2

Steven Pemberton: XForms does XML Events, so ubiquity will move to XML Events 2 ←

09:49:05 <oedipus> SM: uses Events, not Handlers

Shane McCarron: uses Events, not Handlers ←

09:49:12 <oedipus> SP: Handlers derived from XForms

Steven Pemberton: Handlers derived from XForms ←

09:49:22 <oedipus> SP: conditionals form XForms 1.1

Steven Pemberton: conditionals from XForms 1.1 ←

09:49:34 <oedipus> s/form/from

09:49:47 <oedipus> SP: should be referencing XForms 1.1 rather than XForms 1.0

Steven Pemberton: should be referencing XForms 1.1 rather than XForms 1.0 ←

09:50:00 <oedipus> SP: XML Events is difficult, but ubiquity will help us

Steven Pemberton: XML Events is difficult, but ubiquity will help us ←

09:50:14 <oedipus> RM: implementation of SCRIPT tag through javascript?

Roland Merrick: implementation of SCRIPT tag through javascript? ←

09:50:35 <oedipus> SP: danger is UA gets to SCRIPT tag before XHTML2 script does

Steven Pemberton: danger is UA gets to SCRIPT tag before XHTML2 script does ←

09:50:45 <oedipus> Alessio: interesting point

Alessio Cartocci: interesting point ←

09:50:55 <oedipus> SP: may be ok - proof will be in the proverbial pudding

Steven Pemberton: may be ok - proof will be in the proverbial pudding ←

09:51:12 <oedipus> SM: things in scripts don't do inline functions - should declare, not execute

Shane McCarron: things in scripts don't do inline functions - should declare, not execute ←

09:51:38 <oedipus> RM: move it all into a single namespace?

Roland Merrick: move it all into a single namespace? ←

09:51:45 <oedipus> RM: make author's life as easy as can make it

Roland Merrick: make author's life as easy as can make it ←

09:51:58 <oedipus> SM: what would that encompass "all"?

Shane McCarron: what would that encompass "all"? ←

09:52:15 <oedipus> RM: XML Events, XML Handlers - take as chameleon to XML namespace

Roland Merrick: XML Events, XML Handlers - take as chameleon to XHTML namespace ←

09:52:35 <oedipus> s/to XML/to XHTML

09:52:35 <Steven> http://groups.google.com/group/ubiquity-xforms

Steven Pemberton: http://groups.google.com/group/ubiquity-xforms ←

09:53:02 <oedipus> SP: let's do it and see what reaction is

Steven Pemberton: let's do it and see what reaction is ←

09:53:15 <oedipus> RM: ARIA Module - should be in here

Roland Merrick: ARIA Module - should be in here ←

09:53:40 <oedipus> SM: absolutely think should include ARIA (as aria- ) in XHTML2

Shane McCarron: absolutely think should include ARIA (as aria- ) in XHTML2 ←

09:53:43 <oedipus> Alessio: agree

Alessio Cartocci: agree ←

09:53:45 <oedipus> GJR: agree

Gregory Rosmaita: agree ←

09:54:48 <Steven> http://code.google.com/p/ubiquity-xforms/

Steven Pemberton: http://code.google.com/p/ubiquity-xforms/ ←

09:55:44 <oedipus> RM: our view is that we will do aria-

Roland Merrick: our view is that we will do aria- ←

09:56:44 <oedipus> SM: wrt XHTML2, ARIA spec will be rolled in - should add reference to XHTML2.0 doctype chapter

Shane McCarron: wrt XHTML2, ARIA spec will be rolled in - should add reference to XHTML2.0 doctype chapter ←

09:56:54 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria ←

09:56:58 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-roadmap

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-roadmap ←

09:57:02 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-primer

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-primer ←

09:57:05 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices ←

09:57:51 <oedipus> latest drafts 18 june 2008

latest drafts 18 june 2008 ←

09:57:54 <ShaneM> Let's offer to help ARIA create a DTD and Schema for their spec that conforms to M12N 1.1

Shane McCarron: Let's offer to help ARIA create a DTD and Schema for their spec that conforms to M12N 1.1 ←

09:58:10 <oedipus> yes, shane - i will work with you on that if you like

yes, shane - i will work with you on that if you like ←

09:58:39 <oedipus> RM: discussion aroiund Alessio's work - viewports in source as well as from elsewhere - fact of life need to talk out how to address

Roland Merrick: discussion aroiund Alessio's work - viewports in source as well as from elsewhere - fact of life need to talk out how to address ←

09:59:21 <oedipus> RM: what to do with certain types of elements - XHTML2 include H1 - H6 - should be using H for headings and H1 to H6 in another place

Roland Merrick: what to do with certain types of elements - XHTML2 include H1 - H6 - should be using H for headings and H1 to H6 in another place ←

09:59:24 <oedipus> SP: legacy module

Steven Pemberton: legacy module ←

09:59:27 <oedipus> SM: agree

Shane McCarron: agree ←

09:59:30 <oedipus> Alessio: yes

Alessio Cartocci: yes ←

09:59:32 <oedipus> Yam; yes

Yam; yes ←

09:59:35 <oedipus> GJR: yes

Gregory Rosmaita: yes ←

09:59:50 <oedipus> SM: can migrate things to legacy module; rather not craft new module for next week

Shane McCarron: can migrate things to legacy module; rather not craft new module for next week ←

10:00:11 <yamx> Yam; yes? yes :-)

Unknown yamx: Yam; yes? yes :-) ←

10:00:25 <oedipus> RM: agree - this is future work - raising bar and dealing with structural and clean authoring - adapting to needs of a11y, ubiquitous, etc

Roland Merrick: agree - this is future work - raising bar and dealing with structural and clean authoring - adapting to needs of a11y, ubiquitous, etc ←

10:00:50 <oedipus> Yam: any enumerated list of issues to resolve for LC of XHTML2?

Toshihiko Yamakami: any enumerated list of issues to resolve for LC of XHTML2? ←

10:01:02 <oedipus> SP: interesting questoin: have a list of issues that have been raised about XHTML2

Steven Pemberton: interesting questoin: have a list of issues that have been raised about XHTML2 ←

10:01:17 <oedipus> Yam: make sub-set of issues we have to clear - work on both sets of issues

Toshihiko Yamakami: make sub-set of issues we have to clear - work on both sets of issues ←

10:01:29 <oedipus> SP: shane can provide a URI to tthe database of issues

Steven Pemberton: shane can provide a URI to tthe database of issues ←

10:01:51 <oedipus> SP: strictly speaking, we are a different WG than those addressed to us prior to split of MarkUp

Steven Pemberton: strictly speaking, we are a different WG than those addressed to us prior to split of MarkUp ←

10:02:07 <oedipus> Yam: still need to attend to them

Toshihiko Yamakami: still need to attend to them ←

10:02:23 <oedipus> RM: we should start to work through old issues during next hour

Roland Merrick: we should start to work through old issues during next hour ←

10:02:52 <oedipus> SM: 82 issues in incoming bucket that have never been filed

Shane McCarron: 82 issues in incoming bucket that have never been filed ←

10:03:25 <oedipus> SM: trying to get URI that includes old and newer issues

Shane McCarron: trying to get URI that includes old and newer issues ←

10:03:39 <ShaneM> http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues?user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1

Shane McCarron: http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues?user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1 ←

10:04:05 <oedipus> SM: not marked "implemented" - means hasn't been fixed

Shane McCarron: not marked "implemented" - means hasn't been fixed ←

10:04:22 <oedipus> SM: suggest we do in alphabetic order

Shane McCarron: suggest we do in alphabetic order ←

10:04:24 <oedipus> RM: ok

Roland Merrick: ok ←

10:04:41 <Steven> http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/AttribColls?id=7661;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1

Steven Pemberton: http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/AttribColls?id=7661;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1 ←

10:05:23 <oedipus> SM: constrain attribute groups together - could extend syntax to show that was my response, but seems an abstract issue (4 year old comment - 7661)

Shane McCarron: constrain attribute groups together - could extend syntax to show that was my response, but seems an abstract issue (4 year old comment - 7661) ←

10:05:38 <oedipus> SP: issue for M12n, not XHTML2 per se

Steven Pemberton: issue for M12n, not XHTML2 per se ←

10:05:52 <oedipus> SM: M12n 2 is direct product of work on XHTML2

Shane McCarron: M12n 2 is direct product of work on XHTML2 ←

10:06:26 <oedipus> RM: explainations in prose to schema - might have to switch to RelaxNG

Roland Merrick: explainations in prose to schema - might have to switch to RelaxNG ←

10:06:33 <oedipus> SP: not necessarily -

Steven Pemberton: not necessarily - ←

10:06:48 <oedipus> RM: if want to put in as implementation, need to use RelaxNG - will become issue in LC

Roland Merrick: if want to put in as implementation, need to use RelaxNG - will become issue in LC ←

10:07:15 <oedipus> SM: marked as "suspended"

Shane McCarron: marked as "suspended" ←

10:07:26 <oedipus> SP: add note to say think is good thing for M12n 2

Steven Pemberton: add note to say think is good thing for M12n 2 ←

10:07:34 <oedipus> SM: ok

Shane McCarron: ok ←

10:08:22 <oedipus> SM: issue 7783 - already improved - need to add text to @src to clarify when dir applies to source

Shane McCarron: ISSUE-7783 - already improved - need to add text to @src to clarify when dir applies to source ←

10:08:38 <oedipus> SP: believe specificied dir only in regard CSS properties

Steven Pemberton: believe specificied dir only in regard CSS properties ←

10:08:47 <oedipus> SP: that would answer question

Steven Pemberton: that would answer question ←

10:08:50 <oedipus> SM: does it?

Shane McCarron: does it? ←

10:09:13 <oedipus> SP: if say @dir defined this way and reference CSS - only affects content of element

Steven Pemberton: if say @dir defined this way and reference CSS - only affects content of element ←

10:09:38 <oedipus> SM: misconception may arise from @src treated as object

Shane McCarron: misconception may arise from @src treated as object ←

10:09:51 <oedipus> SM: use of @src to provide inline text

Shane McCarron: use of @src to provide inline text ←

10:10:14 <oedipus> SM: @src doesn't say thing brought in is in its own context - there is a resolution somewhere, but change yet to be effected to draft

Shane McCarron: @src doesn't say thing brought in is in its own context - there is a resolution somewhere, but change yet to be effected to draft ←

10:10:43 <oedipus> http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/Conventions?user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1

http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/Conventions?user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1 ←

10:11:49 <oedipus> SP: feature request to sysreq - use ID for resolutions in perl script that generates minutes

Steven Pemberton: feature request to sysreq - use ID for resolutions in perl script that generates minutes ←

10:11:58 <oedipus> SP: will send in issue request now

Steven Pemberton: will send in issue request now ←

10:12:03 <ShaneM> http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/Conventions?id=7799;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1

Shane McCarron: http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/Conventions?id=7799;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1 ←

10:12:59 <ShaneM> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2007/ED-xhtml2-20071024/mod-embedding.html#adef_embedding_src

Shane McCarron: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2007/ED-xhtml2-20071024/mod-embedding.html#adef_embedding_src ←

10:13:06 <oedipus> SM: ISSUE 7799 Jim Ley points out that not clear how deal with quality values in regards source - "Please clarify the section to explain how document quality values, and user agent quality values combine."

Shane McCarron: ISSUE-7799 Jim Ley points out that not clear how deal with quality values in regards source - "Please clarify the section to explain how document quality values, and user agent quality values combine." ←

10:13:55 <oedipus> SM: comment reflects on @sourcetype - clarify in text what we mean by intersection

Shane McCarron: comment reflects on @srctype - clarify in text what we mean by intersection ←

10:14:11 <oedipus> s/@sourcetype/@srctype

10:14:23 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

10:14:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←

10:15:55 <oedipus> SP: explanation: in HTML4, one could say type="foo" to specify type of thing pointing at -- doesn't do anything, just a hint - no garuntee that it is true - comment more than anything; made more useful to merge type into HTTP-REQUEST sent for resource; allows one to specify the RDF version of a document - gives control over content negotiation

Steven Pemberton: explanation: in HTML4, one could say type="foo" to specify type of thing pointing at -- doesn't do anything, just a hint - no garuntee that it is true - comment more than anything; made more useful to merge type into HTTP-REQUEST sent for resource; allows one to specify the RDF version of a document - gives control over content negotiation ←

10:16:02 <oedipus> SP: haven't specified for quality values

Steven Pemberton: haven't specified for quality values ←

10:16:09 <oedipus> SP: no answer off top of my head

Steven Pemberton: no answer off top of my head ←

10:16:21 <oedipus> RM: @src and @srctype - example of a handler element

Roland Merrick: @src and @srctype - example of a handler element ←

10:16:23 <oedipus> SM: used to

Shane McCarron: used to ←

10:16:42 <oedipus> SM: good catch -will fix now

Shane McCarron: good catch -will fix now ←

10:16:56 <oedipus> SP: needs some brainwork

Steven Pemberton: needs some brainwork ←

10:17:32 <oedipus> SM: started to address in XHTMLMIME doc last night in regards requests in general and use of profile parameter as media selector - all dovetail

Shane McCarron: started to address in XHTMLMIME doc last night in regards requests in general and use of profile parameter as media selector - all dovetail ←

10:17:53 <oedipus> ACTION: Steven - devote brain cycles to solving quality values question

ACTION: Steven - devote brain cycles to solving quality values question ←

10:18:00 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

10:18:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←

10:18:16 <oedipus> SM: ISSUE 7799 is "open" then

Shane McCarron: ISSUE-7799 is "open" then ←

10:18:44 <oedipus> SM: next issue in same section also from Jim Ley

Shane McCarron: next issue in same section also from Jim Ley ←

10:18:45 <oedipus> http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/Conventions?id=7800;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1

http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/Conventions?id=7800;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1 ←

10:19:14 <oedipus> SM: "intersection of mime-types" - what does asterisk mean when creating intersections

Shane McCarron: "intersection of mime-types" - what does asterisk mean when creating intersections ←

10:19:30 <oedipus> SP: similar issue - answer fairly obvious - will combine with previous action item

Steven Pemberton: similar issue - answer fairly obvious - will combine with previous action item ←

10:19:56 <oedipus> ACTION: Steven - combine answer to ISSUE 7800 with answer to ISSUE 7799

ACTION: Steven - combine answer to ISSUE-7800 with answer to ISSUE-7799 ←

10:20:01 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

10:20:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←

10:20:13 <oedipus> http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/CoreAttrs?id=7872;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1

http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/CoreAttrs?id=7872;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1 ←

10:20:24 <oedipus> SM: "attributes without values"

Shane McCarron: "attributes without values" ←

10:21:07 <oedipus> SM: from issue: "class attribute is defined as NMTOKENS, which in turn is defined as one or more whitespace separated NMTOKEN... but I think it is always legal to specify an attribute with no value. Isn't it? We should make that clear."

Shane McCarron: from issue: "class attribute is defined as NMTOKENS, which in turn is defined as one or more whitespace separated NMTOKEN... but I think it is always legal to specify an attribute with no value. Isn't it? We should make that clear." ←

10:21:13 <oedipus> SM: thought this was closed

Shane McCarron: thought this was closed ←

10:21:34 <oedipus> SM: marked "The working group intended this be NMTOKENS, and that an empty value be not

Shane McCarron: marked "The working group intended this be NMTOKENS, and that an empty value be not ←

10:21:34 <oedipus> permitted.

permitted. ←

10:21:50 <oedipus> SM: WG did not want use for class

Shane McCarron: WG did not want use for class ←

10:22:46 <oedipus> http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/EmbeddingAttrs?user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1

http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/EmbeddingAttrs?user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1 ←

10:23:09 <oedipus> RM: need to start devoting significant time and effort on this

Roland Merrick: need to start devoting significant time and effort on this ←

10:23:24 <oedipus> SM: biggest criticism WG has had is non-responsiveness to public issues

Shane McCarron: biggest criticism WG has had is non-responsiveness to public issues ←

10:23:42 <oedipus> http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/EmbeddingAttrs?id=7730;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1

http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/EmbeddingAttrs?id=7730;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1 ←

10:24:02 <oedipus> SM: one of family of comments from Jim Ley - please specify something when something goes bad

Shane McCarron: one of family of comments from Jim Ley - please specify something when something goes bad ←

10:24:39 <oedipus> ISSUE 7730: "If the user aborts downloading whilst the chicken.xhtml resource is only partially downloaded, is the chicken.xhtml resource successful or not? And what should be rendered, the parts of chicken.xhtml that had been downloaded and rendered so far, or should the fallback content be rendered instead? Is the behaviour any different if instead of a user initiated abort, there's an abort caused by the network?"

ISSUE-7730: "If the user aborts downloading whilst the chicken.xhtml resource is only partially downloaded, is the chicken.xhtml resource successful or not? And what should be rendered, the parts of chicken.xhtml that had been downloaded and rendered so far, or should the fallback content be rendered instead? Is the behaviour any different if instead of a user initiated abort, there's an abort caused by the network?" ←

10:24:47 <oedipus> TH: similar to conversation yesterday

Tina Holmboe: similar to conversation yesterday ←

10:24:54 <Steven> (Feature request for id on RESOLUTIONS sent)

Steven Pemberton: (Feature request for id on RESOLUTIONS sent) ←

10:25:09 <oedipus> TH: if download document that is perfectly valid, document shouldn't be rendered by UA

Tina Holmboe: if download document that is perfectly valid, document shouldn't be rendered by UA ←

10:25:21 <oedipus> TH: if embed fragment, and collection is lost - what then?

Tina Holmboe: if embed fragment, and collection is lost - what then? ←

10:25:54 <oedipus> SM: diff by the way separate documents (OBJECT or IFRAME) and embedded documents

Shane McCarron: diff by the way separate documents (OBJECT or IFRAME) and embedded documents ←

10:26:10 <oedipus> SP: good question - gut feeling is that any failure should be counted as a failure

Steven Pemberton: good question - gut feeling is that any failure should be counted as a failure ←

10:26:20 <oedipus> SM: what does it mean when fails -- falls back?

Shane McCarron: what does it mean when fails -- falls back? ←

10:26:55 <oedipus> SP: if loading of resource fails, fallback content should be used - that's what @src states - if network fails during download, fallback to fallback content

Steven Pemberton: if loading of resource fails, fallback content should be used - that's what @src states - if network fails during download, fallback to fallback content ←

10:27:21 <alessio> +1

Alessio Cartocci: +1 ←

10:27:30 <oedipus> +1

+1 ←

10:27:38 <Tina> +1

Tina Holmboe: +1 ←

10:28:14 <oedipus> RM: unpredictable - did or didn't - if succeed, get it, if fails, don't get it and get fallback (which is what it is there for)

Roland Merrick: unpredictable - did or didn't - if succeed, get it, if fails, don't get it and get fallback (which is what it is there for) ←

10:28:20 <oedipus> SP: need to state explicitly

Steven Pemberton: need to state explicitly ←

10:28:30 <oedipus> SM: same argument applies to ISSUE 7731

Shane McCarron: same argument applies to ISSUE-7731 ←

10:28:37 <oedipus> http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/EmbeddingAttrs?id=7731;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1

http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/EmbeddingAttrs?id=7731;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1 ←

10:28:53 <oedipus> RM: marking as closed?

Roland Merrick: marking as closed? ←

10:28:58 <oedipus> SM: marking as go

Shane McCarron: marking as go ←

10:29:05 <oedipus> RM: don't want to have to revisit in a few months

Roland Merrick: don't want to have to revisit in a few months ←

10:29:12 <oedipus> http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/EmbeddingAttrs?id=7732;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1

http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/EmbeddingAttrs?id=7732;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1 ←

10:29:22 <oedipus> SM: 7731 same as 7730

Shane McCarron: 7731 same as 7730 ←

10:30:29 <oedipus> SP: different - when talking about @src - if have PDF as target of @src, but if PDF not available/supported should not be an error; errors in @src should ONLY refer to network errors in retrieving source

Steven Pemberton: different - when talking about @src - if have PDF as target of @src, but if PDF not available/supported should not be an error; errors in @src should ONLY refer to network errors in retrieving source ←

10:31:21 <oedipus> TH: agree that if you link embedded PDF and is handed off to third-party app, not a failure, but in jimL's example, compromise entire document

Tina Holmboe: agree that if you link embedded PDF and is handed off to third-party app, not a failure, but in jimL's example, compromise entire document ←

10:31:58 <oedipus> TH: XHTML fragment with host document suddenly becomes invalid host document; processing directive "this has been embedded with @src shouldn't text that for validity"

Tina Holmboe: XHTML fragment with host document suddenly becomes invalid host document; processing directive "this has been embedded with @src shouldn't text that for validity" ←

10:32:53 <oedipus> SP: when process top-level XHTML2 document, and XHTML2 processor not aware/agnostic of mediatype - goes and gets resource; if retrieving resource successful, hands off to plug-in; if not delivered (failure to load remote resource)

Steven Pemberton: when process top-level XHTML2 document, and XHTML2 processor not aware/agnostic of mediatype - goes and gets resource; if retrieving resource successful, hands off to plug-in; if not delivered (failure to load remote resource) ←

10:33:09 <oedipus> RM: not clear from reading def of @src what DOM looks like after it has succeded

Roland Merrick: not clear from reading def of @src what DOM looks like after it has succeded ←

10:33:15 <oedipus> RM: what happens?

Roland Merrick: what happens? ←

10:33:29 <oedipus> TH: embedding mechanism @src doesn't care about content-type or resource?

Tina Holmboe: embedding mechanism @src doesn't care about content-type or resource? ←

10:33:40 <oedipus> SP: in loading it, doesn't do anything special for diff mediatypes

Steven Pemberton: in loading it, doesn't do anything special for diff mediatypes ←

10:33:58 <oedipus> TH: separate processor - if resource in form of XML, does XML become part of host document

Tina Holmboe: separate processor - if resource in form of XML, does XML become part of host document ←

10:34:03 <oedipus> SM: answer is no

Shane McCarron: answer is no ←

10:34:08 <oedipus> SP: like IMG @src now

Steven Pemberton: like IMG @src now ←

10:34:17 <oedipus> TH: can't access that segment via the DOM

Tina Holmboe: can't access that segment via the DOM ←

10:34:24 <oedipus> RM: that is what is unclear in @src def

Roland Merrick: that is what is unclear in @src def ←

10:34:59 <oedipus> SM: intent - anything included by @src works as OBJECT element should - separate entity in displayed document (has own security context, DOM, etc.)

Shane McCarron: intent - anything included by @src works as OBJECT element should - separate entity in displayed document (has own security context, DOM, etc.) ←

10:35:02 <Steven> Yes, it is a shoprtcut for object, good description

Steven Pemberton: Yes, it is a shortcut for object, good description ←

10:35:11 <oedipus> RM: syntaxic shortcut for OBJECT element? need to make that clear

Roland Merrick: syntaxic shortcut for OBJECT element? need to make that clear ←

10:35:11 <Steven> s/prt/rt/

10:35:12 <alessio> true

Alessio Cartocci: true ←

10:35:24 <oedipus> SM: if that is what it is, not entirely sure is useful

Shane McCarron: if that is what it is, not entirely sure is useful ←

10:35:36 <oedipus> RM: still going to write HTTP-REQUESTs

Roland Merrick: still going to write HTTP-REQUESTs ←

10:35:51 <oedipus> SP: reason good is that solves problem with LONGDESC - moving longdesc into document

Steven Pemberton: reason good is that solves problem with LONGDESC - moving longdesc into document ←

10:36:20 <oedipus> SP: keeping separate docs up to date with LONGDESC model very difficult; in this way, keep longdesc in document itself and have best of both worlds

Steven Pemberton: keeping separate docs up to date with LONGDESC model very difficult; in this way, keep longdesc in document itself and have best of both worlds ←

10:36:38 <oedipus> SM: agree that very difficult to maintain LONGDESC, but if only use case, very heavy handed solution

Shane McCarron: agree that very difficult to maintain LONGDESC, but if only use case, very heavy handed solution ←

10:36:50 <oedipus> SP: not only use case, but a REALLY good solution for LONGDESC

Steven Pemberton: not only use case, but a REALLY good solution for LONGDESC ←

10:37:06 <oedipus> RM: if want @src to appear in DOM, don't use this - need to clarify

Roland Merrick: if want @src to appear in DOM, don't use this - need to clarify ←

10:37:32 <oedipus> RM: to have in DOM and manipulate, use HTTP-REQUEST

Roland Merrick: to have in DOM and manipulate, use HTTP-REQUEST ←

10:37:34 <oedipus> SP: XForms

Steven Pemberton: XForms ←

10:37:41 <oedipus> SM: no XHR or server-side includes

Shane McCarron: no XHR or server-side includes ←

10:37:43 <alessio> +1 for an embedded LONGDESC

Alessio Cartocci: +1 for an embedded LONGDESC ←

10:38:00 <oedipus> SP: XHR is derived from XForms

Steven Pemberton: XHR is derived from XForms ←

10:38:10 <oedipus> +1 for embedded LONGDESC (on user configuration)

+1 for embedded LONGDESC (on user configuration) ←

10:38:15 <oedipus> RM: don't think so

Roland Merrick: don't think so ←

10:38:28 <oedipus> RM: restrictions and restraints lacking

Roland Merrick: restrictions and restraints lacking ←

10:38:42 <oedipus> SP: should discuss, but XForms instance gives us what we want

Steven Pemberton: should discuss, but XForms instance gives us what we want ←

10:38:56 <oedipus> SM: if that is the case, it is a non-obvious solution to this problem

Shane McCarron: if that is the case, it is a non-obvious solution to this problem ←

10:39:24 <oedipus> RM: if XForms 1.1 isolates network module for getting and putting resources will be easier than XForms today

Roland Merrick: if XForms 1.1 isolates network module for getting and putting resources will be easier than XForms today ←

10:39:31 <oedipus> SP: why? load some resource then use part of them

Steven Pemberton: why? load some resource then use part of them ←

10:39:47 <oedipus> RM: no, load resource inline in DOM no referencing - just there

Roland Merrick: no, load resource inline in DOM no referencing - just there ←

10:40:00 <oedipus> SM: mash-up use case -

Shane McCarron: mash-up use case - ←

10:40:08 <oedipus> SP: XForms addresses that in my opinion

Steven Pemberton: XForms addresses that in my opinion ←

10:40:23 <oedipus> SM: text doesn't make it clear and needs clarification - who owns section?

Shane McCarron: text doesn't make it clear and needs clarification - who owns section? ←

10:40:27 <oedipus> SP: suspect it is me

Steven Pemberton: suspect it is me ←

10:40:48 <oedipus> RM: known issues

Roland Merrick: known issues ←

10:41:20 <oedipus> SM: @src content embedded, so needs own styling

Shane McCarron: @src content embedded, so needs own styling ←

10:41:31 <oedipus> TH: needs to be stressed as well

Tina Holmboe: needs to be stressed as well ←

10:42:01 <oedipus> SM: SP owns section

Shane McCarron: SP owns section ←

10:42:35 <oedipus> PRPOSED ACTION: Steven - add text to make clear that item not in DOM and clarify styling implications

PRPOSED ACTION: Steven - add text to make clear that item not in DOM and clarify styling implications ←

10:43:02 <oedipus> SM: strong argument, RM for other sort of include - proposal would be good

Shane McCarron: strong argument, RM for other sort of include - proposal would be good ←

10:43:08 <ShaneM> http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/EmbeddingAttrs?id=7732;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1

Shane McCarron: http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/EmbeddingAttrs?id=7732;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1 ←

10:43:24 <oedipus> ACTION: Steven add text to @src section to make clear that item not in DOM and clarify styling implications

ACTION: Steven add text to @src section to make clear that item not in DOM and clarify styling implications ←

10:43:28 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

10:43:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←

10:43:59 <oedipus> SM: ISSUE 7732 - clarify intersection of what author is asking for and what UA can handle

Shane McCarron: ISSUE-7732 - clarify intersection of what author is asking for and what UA can handle ←

10:44:20 <oedipus> "Please remove this constraint.

"Please remove this constraint. ←

10:44:20 <oedipus> "

" ←

10:44:32 <oedipus> TH: Needs clarification

Tina Holmboe: Needs clarification ←

10:44:40 <oedipus> SM: clarified somewhere - discussed multiple times

Shane McCarron: clarified somewhere - discussed multiple times ←

10:44:50 <oedipus> TH: if what JimL quotes is correct, then "OUCH!"

Tina Holmboe: if what JimL quotes is correct, then "OUCH!" ←

10:45:42 <oedipus> SP: trouble is thing is being embedded, so the surrounding XHTML2 processor not going to be displaying it; what XHTML2 processor can display non-issue - encoding matters to what is used to process that doctype

Steven Pemberton: trouble is thing is being embedded, so the surrounding XHTML2 processor not going to be displaying it; what XHTML2 processor can display non-issue - encoding matters to what is used to process that doctype ←

10:45:56 <oedipus> RM: does same issue apply to OBJECT?

Roland Merrick: does same issue apply to OBJECT? ←

10:46:08 <oedipus> SM: don't think is same

Shane McCarron: don't think is same ←

10:46:09 <ShaneM> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2007/ED-xhtml2-20071024/mod-embedding.html#adef_embedding_encoding

Shane McCarron: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2007/ED-xhtml2-20071024/mod-embedding.html#adef_embedding_encoding ←

10:46:26 <markbirbeck> Apologies again guys...can't join today. Sorry. :(

Scribe problem: the name 'markbirbeck' does not match any of the 10 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Roland Merrick Steven Pemberton Tina Holmboe Gregory Rosmaita Alessio Cartocci Toshihiko Yamakami Shane McCarron Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown markbirbeck: Apologies again guys...can't join today. Sorry. :( ←

10:46:36 <markbirbeck> Will stay on IRC for as long as I can.

Unknown markbirbeck: Will stay on IRC for as long as I can. ←

10:46:37 <oedipus> TH: seems like matter of semantics - intent of section is to say author may suggest what to request, but UA chooses what can understand

Tina Holmboe: seems like matter of semantics - intent of section is to say author may suggest what to request, but UA chooses what can understand ←

10:46:38 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/links.html#adef-charset

Steven Pemberton: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/links.html#adef-charset ←

10:47:16 <oedipus> SP: charset attribute used on A, LINK, SCRIPT in HTML4 - renamed at request of i18n

Steven Pemberton: charset attribute used on A, LINK, SCRIPT in HTML4 - renamed at request of i18n ←

10:47:36 <oedipus> SP: HTML4 says "this attribute specifies character encoding specified by link" so HTML4 has same problem

Steven Pemberton: HTML4 says "this attribute specifies character encoding specified by link" so HTML4 has same problem ←

10:48:17 <oedipus> TH: fundamental difference - in HTML4 resource specified by link; objection is to "user agent must use this list to indicate what accepts"

Tina Holmboe: fundamental difference - in HTML4 resource specified by link; objection is to "user agent must use this list to indicate what accepts" ←

10:49:11 <oedipus> SP: HTML4 to XHTML2 - HTML4 @charset specifies character encoding of source specified by link; what if UA doesn't know encoding; no prose about refusing if UA cannot accept - just says "that's the encoding"

Steven Pemberton: HTML4 to XHTML2 - HTML4 @charset specifies character encoding of source specified by link; what if UA doesn't know encoding; no prose about refusing if UA cannot accept - just says "that's the encoding" ←

10:49:15 <oedipus> TH: prlbem with any link

Tina Holmboe: problem with any link ←

10:49:22 <oedipus> s/prlbem/problem

10:49:54 <oedipus> SP: XHTML2 adds to accept headers - asks for specific resource and sent off in request headers

Steven Pemberton: XHTML2 adds to accept headers - asks for specific resource and sent off in request headers ←

10:49:58 <Zakim> -Alessio

Zakim IRC Bot: -Alessio ←

10:50:10 <oedipus> SP: shoujld we use encoding in request, or in accordance with what UA says it accepts

Steven Pemberton: shoujld we use encoding in request, or in accordance with what UA says it accepts ←

10:50:34 <oedipus> SP: if answer is yes, combine with what UA can accept, means excluding resources not natively supported by UA (PDF example)

Steven Pemberton: if answer is yes, combine with what UA can accept, means excluding resources not natively supported by UA (PDF example) ←

10:50:57 <oedipus> SP: not issue of UA can handle UTF-8, but if PDF parser can handle UTF-8

Steven Pemberton: not issue of UA can handle UTF-8, but if PDF parser can handle UTF-8 ←

10:51:08 <oedipus> TH: still back to semantics - need to sort out -

Tina Holmboe: still back to semantics - need to sort out - ←

10:51:36 <oedipus> TH: not clear to me or authors - doesn't solve problem of what happens if host UA is rendering what it serves

Tina Holmboe: not clear to me or authors - doesn't solve problem of what happens if host UA is rendering what it serves ←

10:51:51 <Steven>   So, there is nothing wrong with <img src="foo.pdf" srctype="app/pdf" encoding="utf-8"/>

Steven Pemberton: So, there is nothing wrong with <img src="foo.pdf" srctype="app/pdf" encoding="utf-8"/> ←

10:52:18 <oedipus> SP: no business of UA whether can handle UTF-8

Steven Pemberton: no business of UA whether can handle UTF-8 ←

10:52:24 <oedipus> TH: that's what needs to be clarified

Tina Holmboe: that's what needs to be clarified ←

10:52:47 <oedipus> "The user agent must use this list as the field value of the accept-charset request header when requesting the resource using HTTP"

"The user agent must use this list as the field value of the accept-charset request header when requesting the resource using HTTP" ←

10:53:05 <oedipus> RM: what is use case of putting source of PDF in there?

Roland Merrick: what is use case of putting source of PDF in there? ←

10:53:06 <Zakim> +??P3

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P3 ←

10:53:09 <oedipus> SP: just an example

Steven Pemberton: just an example ←

10:53:14 <alessio> zakim, ??P3 is Alessio

Alessio Cartocci: zakim, ??P3 is Alessio ←

10:53:14 <Zakim> +Alessio; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Alessio; got it ←

10:53:24 <oedipus> RM: what is the "real" motivating use case for this

Roland Merrick: what is the "real" motivating use case for this ←

10:53:36 <oedipus> SM: just think OBJECT - think about it in that context

Shane McCarron: just think OBJECT - think about it in that context ←

10:53:41 <oedipus> RM: so applies to OBJECT

Roland Merrick: so applies to OBJECT ←

10:53:43 <oedipus> SM: yes

Shane McCarron: yes ←

10:53:50 <oedipus> SP: and attribute is used by OBJECT

Steven Pemberton: and attribute is used by OBJECT ←

10:53:59 <oedipus> SM: meant in HTML4

Shane McCarron: meant in HTML4 ←

10:54:03 <oedipus> SP: ah

Steven Pemberton: ah ←

10:54:18 <oedipus> SM: if specified on OBJECT element currently, UA would constrain request

Shane McCarron: if specified on OBJECT element currently, UA would constrain request ←

10:54:21 <oedipus> SP: not in HTML4

Steven Pemberton: not in HTML4 ←

10:54:51 <oedipus> SP: design error in definition of @srctype and @encoding in HTML4 - useless comments from which nothing is gained

Steven Pemberton: design error in definition of @srctype and @encoding in HTML4 - useless comments from which nothing is gained ←

10:54:51 <alessio> yes

Alessio Cartocci: yes ←

10:55:12 <oedipus> TH: sort out JimL's issue by clarifying his misunderstanding -

Tina Holmboe: sort out JimL's issue by clarifying his misunderstanding - ←

10:55:29 <oedipus> TH: need to sort issues out -

Tina Holmboe: need to sort issues out - ←

10:55:32 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2007/ED-xhtml2-20071024/mod-embedding.html#s_embeddingmodule

Steven Pemberton: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2007/ED-xhtml2-20071024/mod-embedding.html#s_embeddingmodule ←

10:56:44 <oedipus> SP: i don't think there is very much of use case for @encoding attribute - most people don't and won't use it; purely a comment in HTML4; XHTML2 tightening it up for a use, but barely a reason why one would want to use

Steven Pemberton: i don't think there is very much of use case for @encoding attribute - most people don't and won't use it; purely a comment in HTML4; XHTML2 tightening it up for a use, but barely a reason why one would want to use ←

10:57:00 <oedipus> TH: if use on OBJECT in HTML4, can provided basis for content negotiation

Tina Holmboe: if use on OBJECT in HTML4, can provided basis for content negotiation ←

10:57:13 <oedipus> SP: how does UA know what thing which is doing embedding can accept?

Steven Pemberton: how does UA know what thing which is doing embedding can accept? ←

10:57:28 <oedipus> SP: when use OBJECT for a video, not UA that does video, hands off to plug-in

Steven Pemberton: when use OBJECT for a video, not UA that does video, hands off to plug-in ←

10:57:42 <oedipus> SM: and no way for UA to tell not supported so give me fallback

Shane McCarron: and no way for UA to tell not supported so give me fallback ←

10:58:02 <oedipus> TH: UA doesn't know what plugin can handle

Tina Holmboe: UA doesn't know what plugin can handle ←

10:58:20 <ShaneM> How about saying "The encoding applies to retrieving a specific version of a resource to hand off to a resource processor for an embedded attribute.  It has nothing to do, per se, with the capabilities of the user agent.  We will make it clear in the text that this is the case."

Shane McCarron: How about saying "The encoding applies to retrieving a specific version of a resource to hand off to a resource processor for an embedded attribute. It has nothing to do, per se, with the capabilities of the user agent. We will make it clear in the text that this is the case." ←

10:58:25 <oedipus> TH: make 8.1 explicit that this is what processor can handle, not User Agent

Tina Holmboe: make 18.1 explicit that this is what processor can handle, not User Agent ←

10:58:37 <ShaneM> s/8.1/18.1/

10:58:49 <Steven> tina breaking up

Steven Pemberton: tina breaking up ←

10:58:54 <oedipus> GJR plus 1 to shaneM suggestion

GJR plus 1 to shaneM suggestion ←

10:59:38 <Tina> If we can clear up 18.1 to make it explicit that it is the processor that handles the embedded content which use this encoding, and NOT the embedding UA, then we can close the issue.

Tina Holmboe: If we can clear up 18.1 to make it explicit that it is the processor that handles the embedded content which use this encoding, and NOT the embedding UA, then we can close the issue. ←

11:00:04 <oedipus> SM: information that a UA would give to the plugin - handler for associated mediatype - plugin should know to retreive resource or accept resource using this encoding

Shane McCarron: information that a UA would give to the plugin - handler for associated mediatype - plugin should know to retreive resource or accept resource using this encoding ←

11:00:51 <oedipus> RM: still have problem figuring out why useful - embedding attribute module

Roland Merrick: still have problem figuring out why useful - embedding attribute module ←

11:01:10 <oedipus> SM: larger question - even if atts only expressed in relation to OBJECT would still ahve same issues

Shane McCarron: larger question - even if atts only expressed in relation to OBJECT would still have same issues ←

11:01:15 <oedipus> s/ahve/have

11:01:24 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

11:01:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←

11:01:44 <oedipus> RM: trouble understanding value of putting this everywhere

Roland Merrick: trouble understanding value of putting this everywhere ←

11:02:01 <oedipus> SM: issue 7733 - http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/EmbeddingAttrs?id=7733;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1

Shane McCarron: ISSUE-7733 - http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/EmbeddingAttrs?id=7733;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1 ←

11:02:38 <oedipus> SM: response is "embedded content is not in the stream"

Shane McCarron: response is "embedded content is not in the stream" ←

11:02:51 <oedipus> Steven: +1

Steven Pemberton: +1 ←

11:02:56 <oedipus> GJR +1

GJR +1 ←

11:03:20 <yamx> Yam: +1 (quite natural)

Toshihiko Yamakami: +1 (quite natural) [ Scribe Assist by Unknown yamx ] ←

11:03:31 <oedipus> RESOLVED: Issue 7733 closed by responding "embedded content is not in the stream"

RESOLVED: ISSUE-7733 closed by responding "embedded content is not in the stream" ←

11:03:31 <alessio> +1

Alessio Cartocci: +1 ←

11:03:44 <oedipus> http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/EmbeddingAttrs?id=7734;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1

http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/EmbeddingAttrs?id=7734;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1 ←

11:04:15 <oedipus> SM: also from Jim Ley - visited previously but still open - how to know if a "successful failure" - don't think should say anthing about http

Shane McCarron: also from Jim Ley - visited previously but still open - how to know if a "successful failure" - don't think should say anthing about http ←

11:04:19 <oedipus> SP: agree

Steven Pemberton: agree ←

11:04:56 <ShaneM> This specification should not specify anything about how the underlying protocols associated with a URI scheme report success or failure.

Shane McCarron: This specification should not specify anything about how the underlying protocols associated with a URI scheme report success or failure. ←

11:05:01 <oedipus> SP: http spec already says what is and isn't failure - what begins with a 4 is failure, what begins with 3 is success

Steven Pemberton: http spec already says what is and isn't failure - what begins with a 4 is failure, what begins with 2 or 3 is success ←

11:05:41 <oedipus> s/with 3/with 2 or 3

11:05:57 <oedipus> TH: leave to separate protocols to determine what is successful and what is failure

Tina Holmboe: leave to separate protocols to determine what is successful and what is failure ←

11:07:06 <oedipus> http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/EmbeddingAttrs?id=7736;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1

http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/EmbeddingAttrs?id=7736;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1 ←

11:07:15 <oedipus> SM: 7735 closed

Shane McCarron: 7735 closed ←

11:07:29 <oedipus> SM: ISSUE 7736 - what happens when an HREF and an SRC

Shane McCarron: ISSUE-7736 - what happens when an HREF and an SRC ←

11:07:38 <oedipus> TH: would embedded content be linkable

Tina Holmboe: would embedded content be linkable ←

11:07:50 <oedipus> SM: content from HREF replaces SRC

Shane McCarron: content from HREF replaces SRC ←

11:08:01 <oedipus> SP: no - if a P remains a P

Steven Pemberton: no - if a P remains a P ←

11:08:16 <oedipus> TH: so embedded content linkable - don't see problem

Tina Holmboe: so embedded content linkable - don't see problem ←

11:08:17 <Steven> I think that <a id="donkey" href="donkey.html" src="chicken.xhtml>chickens</a>

Steven Pemberton: I think that <a id="donkey" href="donkey.html" src="chicken.xhtml>chickens</a> ←

11:09:06 <oedipus> TH: embedded content used as the link, which seems reasonable; some styles to apply to embedded images (A with IMG)

Tina Holmboe: embedded content used as the link, which seems reasonable; some styles to apply to embedded images (A with IMG) ←

11:09:11 <oedipus> TH: replace content with CSS

Tina Holmboe: replace content with CSS ←

11:09:15 <Steven> is equiv to the present <a id="donkey" href="donkey.html"><img src="chicken.xhtml" alt="chickens"/></a>

Steven Pemberton: is equiv to the present <a id="donkey" href="donkey.html"><img src="chicken.xhtml" alt="chickens"/></a> ←

11:09:44 <oedipus> SM: anything brought in by @src in own dom tree not in doc tree, but styleable itself, not covered by host document's styling

Shane McCarron: anything brought in by @src in own dom tree not in doc tree, but styleable itself, not covered by host document's styling ←

11:10:05 <oedipus> TH: authors going to assume can still style image used as a link

Tina Holmboe: authors going to assume can still style image used as a link ←

11:10:20 <oedipus> SM: styling box in which image is contained - effectively defining border

Shane McCarron: styling box in which image is contained - effectively defining border ←

11:10:37 <oedipus> TH: border is part of image element, because img doing the embedding

Tina Holmboe: border is part of image element, because img doing the embedding ←

11:10:44 <oedipus> TH: not sure going to be clear to authors

Tina Holmboe: not sure going to be clear to authors ←

11:10:53 <oedipus> SM: counterintuative

Shane McCarron: counterintuative ←

11:11:30 <oedipus> TH: issue raises another thing: if embedded content not in DOM and not styled by host, can it be linked?

Tina Holmboe: issue raises another thing: if embedded content not in DOM and not styled by host, can it be linked? ←

11:11:38 <ShaneM> Content brought in via the src attribute is placed *within* the surrounding element, so any annotation on the surrounding element would apply to that element.  In this case, the href attribute would make the surrounding element (the a) linkable.

Shane McCarron: Content brought in via the src attribute is placed *within* the surrounding element, so any annotation on the surrounding element would apply to that element. In this case, the href attribute would make the surrounding element (the a) linkable. ←

11:11:56 <oedipus> TH: use an A element and @src to embed content - what happens to the link?

Tina Holmboe: use an A element and @src to embed content - what happens to the link? ←

11:12:04 <Steven> see above example

Steven Pemberton: see above example ←

11:12:16 <oedipus> sounds reasonable

sounds reasonable ←

11:12:22 <Steven> zakim, mute alessio

Steven Pemberton: zakim, mute alessio ←

11:12:22 <Zakim> Alessio should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Alessio should now be muted ←

11:12:39 <oedipus> TH: like shane's example

Tina Holmboe: like shane's example ←

11:12:40 <alessio> zakim, mute me

Alessio Cartocci: zakim, mute me ←

11:12:40 <Zakim> Alessio was already muted, alessio

Zakim IRC Bot: Alessio was already muted, alessio ←

11:12:48 <oedipus> SM: capture that for edit

Shane McCarron: capture that for edit ←

11:13:11 <oedipus> TH: not eager to explain to author when tries to style inline elements in an A that content is actually embedded

Tina Holmboe: not eager to explain to author when tries to style inline elements in an A that content is actually embedded ←

11:13:22 <oedipus> RM: share that concern - need to return to as BIG ISSUE

Roland Merrick: share that concern - need to return to as BIG ISSUE ←

11:13:35 <oedipus> SM: ISSUE http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/EmbeddingAttrs?id=7737;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1

Shane McCarron: ISSUE http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/EmbeddingAttrs?id=7737;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1 ←

11:13:56 <oedipus> SM: ISSUE 7737 - if iframe has link and click on it, what is replaced

Shane McCarron: ISSUE-7737 - if iframe has link and click on it, what is replaced ←

11:14:00 <oedipus> SP: not a new problem

Steven Pemberton: not a new problem ←

11:14:12 <oedipus> TH: IFRAMEs separate content

Tina Holmboe: IFRAMEs separate content ←

11:14:22 <oedipus> SP: content of IFRAME gets place

Steven Pemberton: content of IFRAME gets place ←

11:14:29 <oedipus> TH: what happens to OBJECT?

Tina Holmboe: what happens to OBJECT? ←

11:14:43 <alessio> yes

Alessio Cartocci: yes ←

11:14:44 <oedipus> SM: would need OBJECT to work correctly

Shane McCarron: would need OBJECT to work correctly ←

11:14:57 <oedipus> RM: Alessio has contribution/suggestions that help

Roland Merrick: Alessio has contribution/suggestions that help ←

11:15:03 <alessio> my example had a fallback

Alessio Cartocci: my example had a fallback ←

11:15:09 <oedipus> SP: link will only be activated in context of embedding

Steven Pemberton: link will only be activated in context of embedding ←

11:15:12 <oedipus> SM: agree

Shane McCarron: agree ←

11:15:21 <oedipus> TH: then embedded content works as OBJECT?

Tina Holmboe: then embedded content works as OBJECT? ←

11:15:26 <oedipus> SM: how OBJECT should work

Shane McCarron: how OBJECT should work ←

11:15:39 <oedipus> RM: should container be able to determine where action taken

Roland Merrick: should container be able to determine where action taken ←

11:15:58 <oedipus> SM: today UAs don't permit embedded actions in embedded content

Shane McCarron: today UAs don't permit embedded actions in embedded content ←

11:16:04 <oedipus> SP: browser doesn't get events

Steven Pemberton: browser doesn't get events ←

11:16:14 <oedipus> SM: go to PDF document with FF and try closing windo

Shane McCarron: go to PDF document with FF and try closing window ←

11:16:19 <oedipus> s/windo/window

11:16:29 <oedipus> SP: same with embedded YouTube clips

Steven Pemberton: same with embedded YouTube clips ←

11:16:34 <oedipus> TH: need to clarify this

Tina Holmboe: need to clarify this ←

11:16:35 <alessio> true

Alessio Cartocci: true ←

11:16:57 <oedipus> RM: irritating implementation bug

Roland Merrick: irritating implementation bug ←

11:17:06 <alessio> zakim, unmute me

Alessio Cartocci: zakim, unmute me ←

11:17:06 <Zakim> Alessio should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Alessio should no longer be muted ←

11:17:11 <oedipus> SP: don't have control over communication mech between plugin and browser

Steven Pemberton: don't have control over communication mechanism between plugin and browser ←

11:17:22 <oedipus> s/mech/mechanism

11:17:28 <ShaneM> Embedded content is in an independent context, so any links within that content would replace the embedded content, and not effect the surrounding document.

Shane McCarron: Embedded content is in an independent context, so any links within that content would replace the embedded content, and not effect the surrounding document. ←

11:17:44 <oedipus> Alessio: why HTML5 created VIDEO and AUDIO elements -- mediatype specific

Alessio Cartocci: why HTML5 created VIDEO and AUDIO elements -- mediatype specific ←

11:18:19 <oedipus> http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/EmbeddingAttrs?id=7738;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1

http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/EmbeddingAttrs?id=7738;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1 ←

11:19:12 <oedipus> SM: still need to finish 7737 - "both behavior desireable - please suggest to author what happens when executed"

Shane McCarron: still need to finish 7737 - "both behavior desireable - please suggest to author what happens when executed" ←

11:19:31 <oedipus> SM: would like to leave open while discuss what @src does and how to provide both functionalities

Shane McCarron: would like to leave open while discuss what @src does and how to provide both functionalities ←

11:19:50 <oedipus> TH: author choice and consistency - implemented easier if one handling model

Tina Holmboe: author choice and consistency - implemented easier if one handling model ←

11:20:45 <ShaneM> Embedded content is in an independent context, so any links within that content would replace the embedded content, and not effect the surrounding document. We will examine providing functionality to embed content inline in a specification separately.

Shane McCarron: Embedded content is in an independent context, so any links within that content would replace the embedded content, and not effect the surrounding document. We will examine providing functionality to embed content inline in a specification separately. ←

11:20:45 <oedipus> SP: agree that there are 2 use cases, but disagree that same mechanism should do both - server side includes, XML includes - do they solve use case or not - one reason why haven't made equivalency - if tech is defined elseshere then don't duplicate

Steven Pemberton: agree that there are 2 use cases, but disagree that same mechanism should do both - server side includes, XML includes - do they solve use case or not - one reason why haven't made equivalency - if tech is defined elseshere then don't duplicate ←

11:21:26 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/PR-xinclude-20040930/

Steven Pemberton: http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/PR-xinclude-20040930/ ←

11:21:33 <yamx> thanks.

Unknown yamx: thanks. ←

11:21:37 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/TR/xinclude/

Steven Pemberton: http://www.w3.org/TR/xinclude/ ←

11:22:18 <oedipus> SM: 7738 editorial request - think should just do it

Shane McCarron: 7738 editorial request - think should just do it ←

11:22:24 <oedipus> http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/EmbeddingAttrs?id=7738;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1

http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/EmbeddingAttrs?id=7738;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1 ←

11:22:46 <oedipus> SP: example chosen to show can do for any source of element type

Steven Pemberton: example chosen to show can do for any source of element type ←

11:23:13 <oedipus> SP: styling problem - CSS has no selector to tell you if something replaced or not

Steven Pemberton: styling problem - CSS has no selector to tell you if something replaced or not ←

11:23:40 <oedipus> SP: would be good for image - when resource fails, style thusly; when resource embedded, style in this manner

Steven Pemberton: would be good for image - when resource fails, style thusly; when resource embedded, style in this manner ←

11:23:48 <oedipus> TH: can't style embedded content anyway

Tina Holmboe: can't style embedded content anyway ←

11:24:14 <oedipus> SP: if an image has been replaaced want a thick border around it; one that has replaced want @alt value in bold

Steven Pemberton: if an image has been replaaced want a thick border around it; one that has replaced want @alt value in bold ←

11:24:24 <oedipus> SP: how image element to be displayed when there and when not there

Steven Pemberton: how image element to be displayed when there and when not there ←

11:25:03 <oedipus> SM: how would you do that? if provide fallback and want styled differently, wouldn't i put styling on embedded atttribute?

Shane McCarron: how would you do that? if provide fallback and want styled differently, wouldn't i put styling on embedded atttribute? ←

11:25:37 <oedipus> SM: object to JimL's example?

Shane McCarron: object to JimL's example? ←

11:25:55 <oedipus> SP: he's right, but that's not point of example - example just shows can do on TABLE if want

Steven Pemberton: he's right, but that's not point of example - example just shows can do on TABLE if want ←

11:26:02 <oedipus> TH: remind JimL this is an example

Tina Holmboe: remind JimL this is an example ←

11:26:08 <oedipus> SP: only there to illustrate an option

Steven Pemberton: only there to illustrate an option ←

11:26:38 <oedipus> SP: probably had genesis in response to question "can i do this with TABLE?"

Steven Pemberton: probably had genesis in response to question "can i do this with TABLE?" ←

11:27:22 <oedipus> TH: what happens if embed image - doesn't replace TABLE, but fills TABLE with image, but TABLE can't directly embed an image

Tina Holmboe: what happens if embed image - doesn't replace TABLE, but fills TABLE with image, but TABLE can't directly embed an image ←

11:27:35 <oedipus> TH: how is embedding UA to deal with this in content model - an empty table?

Tina Holmboe: how is embedding UA to deal with this in content model - an empty table? ←

11:27:47 <oedipus> TH: embedding happens through DOM, won't get to content of TABLE

Tina Holmboe: embedding happens through DOM, won't get to content of TABLE ←

11:28:04 <oedipus> SM: all the necessary stuff to is in DOM; DOM created before @src processed

Shane McCarron: all the necessary stuff to is in DOM; DOM created before @src processed ←

11:28:21 <oedipus> TH: first child node of TABLE node what do you get?

Tina Holmboe: first child node of TABLE node what do you get? ←

11:28:26 <oedipus> SM: TR or CAPTION

Shane McCarron: TR or CAPTION ←

11:28:43 <oedipus> SP: replaced elements in CSS-terms -- CSS talks about replaced elements

Steven Pemberton: replaced elements in CSS-terms -- CSS talks about replaced elements ←

11:28:57 <oedipus> SP: content in DOM not replaced -content in presentation changed

Steven Pemberton: content in DOM not replaced -content in presentation changed ←

11:29:18 <oedipus> RM: complicated, styling implications need to be clarified, as well as what is in the DOM at any point in time

Roland Merrick: complicated, styling implications need to be clarified, as well as what is in the DOM at any point in time ←

11:30:07 <oedipus> TH: not directly related to issue, but need to investigate - people use javascript to change appearance after DOM loaded

Tina Holmboe: not directly related to issue, but need to investigate - people use javascript to change appearance after DOM loaded ←

11:30:40 <oedipus> SP: if you change a piece of DOM that isn't displayed, still isn't displayed; if change parent to cause content to be displayed will be displayed

Steven Pemberton: if you change a piece of DOM that isn't displayed, still isn't displayed; if change parent to cause content to be displayed will be displayed ←

11:30:59 <oedipus> SM: one way to look at this is that we haven't specified how one can tell a @src is successful via the DOM

Shane McCarron: one way to look at this is that we haven't specified how one can tell a @src is successful via the DOM ←

11:31:14 <oedipus> SP: problem with image already as argued before

Steven Pemberton: problem with image already as argued before ←

11:32:09 <oedipus> TH: can't get to it thorugh DOM - people are going to be confused - will take DIV and first child element TABLE and change, but can't get to TABLE

Tina Holmboe: can't get to it thorugh DOM - people are going to be confused - will take DIV and first child element TABLE and change, but can't get to TABLE ←

11:32:25 <oedipus> SP: if they do that will discover what embedding really is

Steven Pemberton: if they do that will discover what embedding really is ←

11:32:45 <oedipus> SP: why spending so much time worrying about @src for HTML @src for anything at all

Steven Pemberton: why spending so much time worrying about @src for HTML @src for anything at all ←

11:32:58 <oedipus> RM: really only for opaque blocks - not what i exected

Roland Merrick: really only for opaque blocks - not what i exected ←

11:33:22 <oedipus> SP: should discuss cases of embedding bits of XML and see if XMLInclude solves use case - tool for embedding fragments

Steven Pemberton: should discuss cases of embedding bits of XML and see if XMLInclude solves use case - tool for embedding fragments ←

11:33:40 <alessio> +1

Alessio Cartocci: +1 ←

11:33:42 <oedipus> RM: also DISELECT which is intended to run client side and takes expressions so can change at runtime

Roland Merrick: also DISELECT which is intended to run client side and takes expressions so can change at runtime ←

11:33:50 <oedipus> http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/EmbeddingAttrs?id=7739;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1

http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/EmbeddingAttrs?id=7739;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1 ←

11:34:29 <oedipus> SM: embedded resources styled with CSS - "If the embedded resource is an XHTML 2 document that is styled with CSS, such that content is positioned at top:-100px;left:-100px, must this content be rendered by a CSS supporting user agent, or is it implementation dependant:"

Shane McCarron: embedded resources styled with CSS - "If the embedded resource is an XHTML 2 document that is styled with CSS, such that content is positioned at top:-100px;left:-100px, must this content be rendered by a CSS supporting user agent, or is it implementation dependant:" ←

11:34:42 <oedipus> SM: embedded resource in its block and everything related to that

Shane McCarron: embedded resource in its block and everything related to that ←

11:34:49 <oedipus> RM: high-grade with own anchor

Roland Merrick: high-grade with own anchor ←

11:35:24 <oedipus> http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/EmbeddingAttrs?id=7774;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1

http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/EmbeddingAttrs?id=7774;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1 ←

11:35:43 <oedipus> SP: new WG inherited these issues

Steven Pemberton: new WG inherited these issues ←

11:35:54 <oedipus> SM: tabled pending resolution of other stuff, but now back on this

Shane McCarron: tabled pending resolution of other stuff, but now back on this ←

11:36:07 <oedipus> SM: ISSUE 7734 - motivation for embedding attributes

Shane McCarron: ISSUE-7734 - motivation for embedding attributes ←

11:36:31 <oedipus> RM: most convincing (and perhaps only) case is LONGDESC

Roland Merrick: most convincing (and perhaps only) case is LONGDESC ←

11:36:48 <oedipus> SM: should say we can provide addditinoal examples and use cases

Shane McCarron: should say we can provide addditinoal examples and use cases ←

11:37:27 <oedipus> SP: 2 examples are equivalent, but that isn't a problem

Steven Pemberton: 2 examples are equivalent, but that isn't a problem ←

11:37:28 <oedipus> <p>

<p> ←

11:37:28 <oedipus> <img src="holiday" srctype="image/png, image/gif;q=0.5">

<img src="holiday" srctype="image/png, image/gif;q=0.5"> ←

11:37:28 <oedipus> An image of us on holiday

An image of us on holiday ←

11:37:28 <oedipus> </img>

</img> ←

11:37:28 <oedipus> </p>

</p> ←

11:37:41 <oedipus> equivalent to:

equivalent to: ←

11:37:41 <oedipus> <img src="temperature-graph.png" srctype="image/png">

<img src="temperature-graph.png" srctype="image/png"> ←

11:37:41 <oedipus> <table>

<table> ←

11:37:41 <oedipus> <caption>Average monthly temperature over the last 20

<caption>Average monthly temperature over the last 20 ←

11:37:41 <oedipus> years</caption>

years</caption> ←

11:37:42 <oedipus> <tr><th>Jan</th><th>Feb</th><th>Mar</th><th>Apr</th><th>May</th><th>Jun</th>

<tr><th>Jan</th><th>Feb</th><th>Mar</th><th>Apr</th><th>May</th><th>Jun</th> ←

11:37:44 <oedipus> <th>Jul</th><th>Aug</th><th>Sep</th><th>Oct</th><th>Nov</th><th>Dec</th>

<th>Jul</th><th>Aug</th><th>Sep</th><th>Oct</th><th>Nov</th><th>Dec</th> ←

11:37:46 <oedipus> </tr>

</tr> ←

11:37:48 <oedipus> <tr><td> 4</td><td> 2</td><td>

<tr><td> 4</td><td> 2</td><td> ←

11:37:50 <oedipus> 7</td><td>

7</td><td> ←

11:37:52 <oedipus> 9</td><td>13</td><td>16</td>

9</td><td>13</td><td>16</td> ←

11:37:54 <oedipus> <td>17</td><td>17</td><td>14</td><td>11</td><td>

<td>17</td><td>17</td><td>14</td><td>11</td><td> ←

11:37:56 <oedipus> 7</td><td> 4</td>

7</td><td> 4</td> ←

11:37:58 <oedipus> </tr>

</tr> ←

11:38:00 <oedipus> </table>

</table> ←

11:38:02 <oedipus> </img>

</img> ←

11:38:04 <oedipus> SM: comments abour @srclang

Shane McCarron: comments abour @srclang ←

11:38:18 <oedipus> SP: for consistency, @src and @href should be aligned

Steven Pemberton: for consistency, @src and @href should be aligned ←

11:38:35 <oedipus> SP: @hreflang equiv: @srclang

Steven Pemberton: @hreflang equiv: @srclang ←

11:38:38 <oedipus> TH: add to Core?

Tina Holmboe: add to Core? ←

11:38:45 <oedipus> SP: embedding applies to everything

Steven Pemberton: embedding applies to everything ←

11:39:21 <oedipus> http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/EmbeddingAttrs?id=7892;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1

http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/EmbeddingAttrs?id=7892;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1 ←

11:39:44 <yamx> 66 minutes?

Unknown yamx: 66 minutes? ←

11:39:52 <oedipus> ===== BREAK FOR 66 MINUTES FOR LUNCH ======

6. BREAK FOR 66 MINUTES FOR LUNCH ======

11:40:10 <yamx> see you later.

Unknown yamx: see you later. ←

11:40:15 <oedipus> RM: start at quarter to hour

Roland Merrick: start at quarter to hour ←

11:40:17 <Zakim> -Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: -Steven ←

11:40:18 <Zakim> -ShaneM

Zakim IRC Bot: -ShaneM ←

11:40:18 <Zakim> -Tina

Zakim IRC Bot: -Tina ←

11:40:19 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutesx

rrsagent, make minutesx ←

11:40:19 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutesx', oedipus.  Try /msg RRSAgent help

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutesx', oedipus. Try /msg RRSAgent help ←

11:40:20 <Zakim> -Alessio

Zakim IRC Bot: -Alessio ←

11:40:21 <Zakim> -Yam

Zakim IRC Bot: -Yam ←

11:40:22 <Zakim> -Roland

Zakim IRC Bot: -Roland ←

11:40:24 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita

Zakim IRC Bot: -Gregory_Rosmaita ←

11:40:26 <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()4:00AM has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: IA_XHTML2()4:00AM has ended ←

11:40:27 <Zakim> Attendees were Roland, Steven, Gregory_Rosmaita, Tina, ShaneM, yamx, Alessio, Yam

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were Roland, Steven, Gregory_Rosmaita, Tina, ShaneM, yamx, Alessio, Yam ←

11:41:07 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutesx

rrsagent, make minutesx ←

11:41:07 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutesx', oedipus.  Try /msg RRSAgent help

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutesx', oedipus. Try /msg RRSAgent help ←

11:41:22 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

11:41:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←

12:44:13 <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()4:00AM has now started

(No events recorded for 62 minutes)

Zakim IRC Bot: IA_XHTML2()4:00AM has now started ←

12:44:20 <Zakim> +Roland

Zakim IRC Bot: +Roland ←

12:51:42 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita

(No events recorded for 7 minutes)

Zakim IRC Bot: +Gregory_Rosmaita ←

12:52:23 <Zakim> +??P21

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P21 ←

12:52:42 <yamx> zakim, ??P21 is yamx

Unknown yamx: zakim, ??P21 is yamx ←

12:52:42 <Zakim> +yamx; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +yamx; got it ←

12:53:14 <Zakim> +??P15

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P15 ←

12:53:22 <alessio> zakim, ??P15 is Alessio

Alessio Cartocci: zakim, ??P15 is Alessio ←

12:53:22 <Zakim> +Alessio; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Alessio; got it ←

12:54:03 <yamx> yah

Unknown yamx: yah ←

12:54:15 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617

Steven Pemberton: zakim, dial steven-617 ←

12:54:16 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven; the call is being made ←

12:54:17 <Zakim> +Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: +Steven ←

12:54:20 <oedipus> it's 8:54 AM local time

it's 8:54 AM local time ←

12:56:29 <Steven> zakim, who is on the phone?

Steven Pemberton: zakim, who is on the phone? ←

12:56:29 <Zakim> On the phone I see Roland, Gregory_Rosmaita, yamx, Alessio, Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Roland, Gregory_Rosmaita, yamx, Alessio, Steven ←

12:58:33 <ShaneM> omw

Shane McCarron: omw ←

12:58:52 <Zakim> +ShaneM

Zakim IRC Bot: +ShaneM ←

13:00:23 <Steven> good plan

Steven Pemberton: good plan ←

13:00:38 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita

Zakim IRC Bot: -Gregory_Rosmaita ←

13:01:10 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita

Zakim IRC Bot: +Gregory_Rosmaita ←

13:01:20 <oedipus> RM: afternoon session start continuing with XHTML2 review

Roland Merrick: afternoon session start continuing with XHTML2 review ←

13:01:36 <oedipus> http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/I18NAttrs?user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1

http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/I18NAttrs?user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1 ←

13:02:05 <oedipus> SM: completed looking at embedding buckets

Shane McCarron: completed looking at embedding buckets ←

13:02:32 <oedipus> http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/I18NAttrs?id=7883;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1

http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/I18NAttrs?id=7883;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1 ←

13:02:49 <oedipus> SP: no, special markup for that called ITS and people should use that if want to

Steven Pemberton: no, special markup for that called ITS and people should use that if want to ←

13:02:53 <oedipus> SM: references ITS

Shane McCarron: references ITS ←

13:02:58 <oedipus> SM: so what are we missing?

Shane McCarron: so what are we missing? ←

13:03:26 <oedipus> SP: use case - google translates pages automatically, some terms need to be handled specially

Steven Pemberton: use case - google translates pages automatically, some terms need to be handled specially ←

13:03:31 <oedipus> SM: that's what ITS is for

Shane McCarron: that's what ITS is for ←

13:03:48 <oedipus> SM: if knows about ITS, then what need for TRANSLATE

Shane McCarron: if knows about ITS, then what need for TRANSLATE ←

13:03:57 <oedipus> SP: became ITS rec in 2007

Steven Pemberton: became ITS rec in 2007 ←

13:04:06 <oedipus> RM: comment 15 months before that

Roland Merrick: comment 15 months before that ←

13:04:11 <oedipus> SM: include ITS in XHTML2?

Shane McCarron: include ITS in XHTML2? ←

13:04:35 <oedipus> SM: don't see why not - wouldn't roll into namespace - can point to ITS with namespace independence

Shane McCarron: don't see why not - wouldn't roll into namespace - can point to ITS with namespace independence ←

13:04:46 <oedipus> SM: already created schema and implementation for it

Shane McCarron: already created schema and implementation for it ←

13:04:59 <oedipus> SP: is there a translate attribute in ITS - yes, they do

Steven Pemberton: is there a translate attribute in ITS - yes, they do ←

13:05:07 <oedipus> SP: in own namespace

Steven Pemberton: in own namespace ←

13:05:26 <yamx> if you do, no objection.

Unknown yamx: if you do, no objection. ←

13:05:35 <oedipus> RESOLVED: Incorporate ITS (International Tag Set) into XHTML2

RESOLVED: Incorporate ITS (International Tag Set) into XHTML2 Doctype Section ←

13:05:45 <oedipus> SP: won't delay CR

Steven Pemberton: won't delay CR ←

13:05:47 <oedipus> +1

+1 ←

13:05:49 <ShaneM> ACTION: Shane to add ITS into the XHTML 2 Doctype section

ACTION: Shane to add ITS into the XHTML 2 Doctype section ←

13:05:51 <alessio> +1

Alessio Cartocci: +1 ←

13:05:56 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

13:05:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←

13:06:24 <oedipus> s/into XHTML2/into XHTML2 Doctype Section

13:06:27 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

13:06:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←

13:06:39 <oedipus> http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/Img?id=7887;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1

http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/Img?id=7887;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1 ←

13:08:18 <oedipus> SM: Issue 7887 -

Shane McCarron: ISSUE-7887 - ←

13:08:27 <oedipus> q+

q+ ←

13:08:57 <oedipus> SP: thought: within XForms, have label, help, hint, and alert - MarkB oft proposed allowing everywhere in XHTML2 as well as XForms

Steven Pemberton: thought: within XForms, have label, help, hint, and alert - MarkB oft proposed allowing everywhere in XHTML2 as well as XForms ←

13:09:05 <oedipus> RM: think made that proposal at last f2f

Roland Merrick: think made that proposal at last f2f ←

13:09:13 <Zakim> +Tina

Zakim IRC Bot: +Tina ←

13:09:24 <oedipus> SP: <img label="blah blah blah">

Steven Pemberton: <img label="blah blah blah"> ←

13:09:32 <oedipus> SM: doesn't solve internationalization problem

Shane McCarron: doesn't solve internationalization problem ←

13:09:56 <Steven> It is <label>Foobar</label>

Steven Pemberton: It is <label>Foobar</label> ←

13:09:56 <oedipus> SP: it is an element

Steven Pemberton: it is an element ←

13:10:01 <oedipus> SM: doesn't make sense

Shane McCarron: doesn't make sense ←

13:10:09 <oedipus> GJR like LABEL for FORM in HTML4?

GJR like LABEL for FORM in HTML4? ←

13:10:36 <oedipus> <img alt="blah" src="blach.png"><label>Blah</label></img>

<img alt="blah" src="blach.png"><label>Blah</label></img> ←

13:10:51 <oedipus> RM: if use title everywhere,

Roland Merrick: if use title everywhere, ←

13:11:12 <oedipus> GJR isn't @title for tooltip-type hints and alt for labelling in HTML4?

GJR isn't @title for tooltip-type hints and alt for labelling in HTML4? ←

13:11:52 <oedipus> RM: write same in ALT and TITLE because no garuntee of what will happen

Roland Merrick: write same in ALT and TITLE because no garuntee of what will happen ←

13:12:04 <Steven> Roland meant <title>My picture</title>

Steven Pemberton: Roland meant <title>My picture</title> ←

13:12:07 <oedipus> RM: html doc has TITLE element

Roland Merrick: html doc has TITLE element ←

13:12:23 <oedipus> RM: how displayed is separate question

Roland Merrick: how displayed is separate question ←

13:12:42 <Steven> that is <img src="..."><title>My house</title></img>

Steven Pemberton: that is <img src="..."><title>My house</title></img> ←

13:12:46 <oedipus> SP: reason for not using title - confusion between @title and TITLE

Steven Pemberton: reason for not using title - confusion between @title and TITLE ←

13:12:57 <oedipus> RM: why XForms has the 4 different elements

Roland Merrick: why XForms has the 4 different elements ←

13:13:23 <alessio> agree

Alessio Cartocci: agree ←

13:13:41 <oedipus> RM: 1 meant to be rendered, 1 available for reuse, 1 meant to be rendered on user action, visible when error ocurs

Steven Pemberton: 1 meant to be rendered, 1 available for reuse, 1 meant to be rendered on user action, visible when error ocurs ←

13:13:53 <oedipus> s/RM: 1/SP: 1

13:13:58 <oedipus> SM: what is our plan

Shane McCarron: what is our plan ←

13:14:28 <alessio> misunderstanding with alt and title started with IE

Alessio Cartocci: misunderstanding with alt and title started with IE ←

13:14:29 <oedipus> RM: opened out - slightly broader - if do here, where else?

Roland Merrick: opened out - slightly broader - if do here, where else? ←

13:14:44 <alessio> and the alt showed as a tooltip

Alessio Cartocci: and the alt showed as a tooltip ←

13:15:18 <oedipus> SP: within XForms answer is: it is used everywhere - could say is allowed anywhere text content is allowed

Steven Pemberton: within XForms answer is: it is used everywhere - could say is allowed anywhere text content is allowed ←

13:15:33 <oedipus> RM: the "it" in the circumstance are the 4 elements

Roland Merrick: the "it" in the circumstance are the 4 elements ←

13:15:53 <oedipus> RM: do we need/want all 4 elements everywhere - have an H for purpose

Roland Merrick: do we need/want all 4 elements everywhere - have an H for purpose ←

13:16:01 <oedipus> SM: disagree - don't think H is purpose

Shane McCarron: disagree - don't think H is purpose ←

13:16:23 <oedipus> RM: 1 of 4 will always be rendered - what if have H and LABEL

Roland Merrick: 1 of 4 will always be rendered - what if have H and LABEL ←

13:17:48 <oedipus> Explicit Association Pattern Collisions need to be straightened out - cascade or politeness order

Explicit Association Pattern Collisions need to be straightened out - cascade or politeness order ←

13:18:28 <oedipus> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/ExplicitAssociationPatterns

http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/ExplicitAssociationPatterns ←

13:18:46 <oedipus> SM: lost thread

Shane McCarron: lost thread ←

13:19:14 <oedipus> RM: what to do with this - open up for 4 state solution

Roland Merrick: what to do with this - open up for 4 state solution ←

13:19:24 <Tina> Zakim: mute Tina

13:19:34 <oedipus> RM: what are ramifications? what is resolution?

Roland Merrick: what are ramifications? what is resolution? ←

13:19:50 <oedipus> SM: should open up - will mark issue as "suspended" while we deal with it

Shane McCarron: should open up - will mark issue as "suspended" while we deal with it ←

13:20:07 <oedipus> RM: should we introduce the 4 from XForms into XHTML2

Roland Merrick: should we introduce the 4 from XForms into XHTML2 ←

13:20:22 <oedipus> RM: resolution of that will effect resolution of this issue

Roland Merrick: resolution of that will effect resolution of this issue ←

13:20:25 <Steven> zakim, mute tina

Steven Pemberton: zakim, mute tina ←

13:20:25 <Zakim> Tina should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Tina should now be muted ←

13:21:05 <oedipus> http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/Intro?user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1

http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/Intro?user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1 ←

13:21:18 <oedipus> http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/Intro?id=7759;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1

http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/Intro?id=7759;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1 ←

13:21:31 <oedipus> SM: suspended until LC

Shane McCarron: suspended until LC ←

13:21:36 <oedipus> SM: style attribute

Shane McCarron: style attribute ←

13:21:53 <oedipus> SP: personally, don't think style attribute should be in XHTML

Steven Pemberton: personally, don't think style attribute should be in XHTML ←

13:21:58 <oedipus> Alessio: agree totally

Alessio Cartocci: agree totally ←

13:22:03 <Tina> zakim, unmute tina

Tina Holmboe: zakim, unmute tina ←

13:22:03 <Zakim> Tina should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Tina should no longer be muted ←

13:22:53 <yamx> it is ok to remove @style attr.

Unknown yamx: it is ok to remove @style attr. ←

13:23:31 <oedipus> GJR: forms-based web needs inline styles - <span style="speak:spell-out">USA</span>

Gregory Rosmaita: forms-based web needs inline styles - <span style="speak:spell-out">USA</span> ←

13:23:50 <oedipus> SP: widely used by spammers to hide stuff

Steven Pemberton: widely used by spammers to hide stuff ←

13:23:59 <oedipus> RM: want ability to control some things inline

Roland Merrick: want ability to control some things inline ←

13:24:11 <oedipus> TH: reminds me of yesterday's discussion of @target

Tina Holmboe: reminds me of yesterday's discussion of @target ←

13:24:24 <oedipus> RM: just because one can misuse, shouldn't preclude valid use

Roland Merrick: just because one can misuse, shouldn't preclude valid use ←

13:24:48 <oedipus> SP: requirement from GJR is that can markup but doesn't need style

Steven Pemberton: requirement from GJR is that can markup but doesn't need @style ←

13:24:58 <oedipus> s/need style/need @style

13:25:26 <oedipus> SP: style and presentation should be separate

Steven Pemberton: style and presentation should be separate ←

13:25:35 <oedipus> GJR: agree, but need to use tools we have

Gregory Rosmaita: agree, but need to use tools we have ←

13:25:53 <oedipus> SP: better to say want to specify things can be spoken - don't require CSS

Steven Pemberton: better to say want to specify things can be spoken - don't require CSS ←

13:26:03 <oedipus> RM: we don't but a given author might have CSS around

Roland Merrick: we don't but a given author might have CSS around ←

13:26:38 <oedipus> RM: example: assembly of fragments - need to specify by STYLE to define a fragment so has style definition and content

Roland Merrick: example: assembly of fragments - need to specify by STYLE to define a fragment so has style definition and content ←

13:26:53 <Zakim> -Alessio

Zakim IRC Bot: -Alessio ←

13:27:09 <oedipus> RM: need ability to associate style is a use case, but not necessarily for @style

Roland Merrick: need ability to associate style is a use case, but not necessarily for @style ←

13:27:34 <oedipus> RM: through SCRIPT want to define my script in my block and STYLE (element) inline

Roland Merrick: through SCRIPT want to define my script in my block and STYLE (element) inline ←

13:27:46 <oedipus> RM: not case in older MLs - can't put outside of HEAD

Roland Merrick: not case in older MLs - can't put outside of HEAD ←

13:28:20 <oedipus> RM: use STYLE element so can make relevant to discrete blocks of content

Roland Merrick: use STYLE element so can make relevant to discrete blocks of content ←

13:29:02 <oedipus> PROPOSED RESOLUTION?: @style is deprecated/eliminated; STYLE element can be used outside HEAD

PROPOSED RESOLUTION?: @style is deprecated/eliminated; STYLE element can be used outside HEAD ←

13:29:41 <alessio> +1

Alessio Cartocci: +1 ←

13:30:03 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller] ←

13:30:08 <ShaneM> +1

Shane McCarron: +1 ←

13:30:12 <alessio> zakim, IPcaller is Alessio

Alessio Cartocci: zakim, IPcaller is Alessio ←

13:30:12 <Zakim> +Alessio; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Alessio; got it ←

13:30:14 <Steven> I can live with that

Steven Pemberton: I can live with that ←

13:30:16 <oedipus> RESOLVED: @style is deprecated/eliminated; STYLE element can be used outside HEAD

eliminated/eliminated; STYLE element can be used outside HEAD ←

13:30:19 <yamx> fine.

Unknown yamx: fine. ←

13:30:43 <oedipus> TH: users will have use cases for it - this attribute (@style) will continue to be used - what do we do about that

Tina Holmboe: users will have use cases for it - this attribute (@style) will continue to be used - what do we do about that ←

13:30:44 <Steven> zakim, mute alessio temporarily

Steven Pemberton: zakim, mute alessio temporarily ←

13:30:44 <Zakim> Alessio should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Alessio should now be muted ←

13:30:59 <oedipus> RM: is it in draft?

Roland Merrick: is it in draft? ←

13:31:00 <Zakim> Alessio should now be unmuted again

Zakim IRC Bot: Alessio should now be unmuted again ←

13:31:01 <oedipus> SP: yes

Steven Pemberton: yes ←

13:31:08 <oedipus> RM: to be resolved?

Roland Merrick: to be resolved? ←

13:31:25 <oedipus> SP: always in that state - in, out, in, out, then marked "this is an issue"

Steven Pemberton: always in that state - in, out, in, out, then marked "this is an issue" ←

13:31:31 <oedipus> SM: marked as issue in draft right now

Shane McCarron: marked as issue in draft right now ←

13:31:44 <ShaneM> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2007/ED-xhtml2-20071024/mod-styleAttribute.html#adef_styleAttribute_style

Shane McCarron: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2007/ED-xhtml2-20071024/mod-styleAttribute.html#adef_styleAttribute_style ←

13:33:03 <oedipus> TH: support resolution, but should be consistent in how we deal with controversial attributes (such as @target) - why not give authors option of having it there

Tina Holmboe: support resolution, but should be consistent in how we deal with controversial attributes (such as @target) - why not give authors option of having it there ←

13:33:12 <oedipus> TH: consistent if we can

Tina Holmboe: consistent if we can ←

13:33:28 <oedipus> SM: same argument put forward at f2f 4 years ago at TP -

Shane McCarron: same argument put forward at f2f 4 years ago at TP - ←

13:33:50 <oedipus> SM: deprecated in XHTML1

Shane McCarron: deprecated in XHTML1.1 ←

13:34:09 <yamx> if it is already deprecated, we can eliminate it.

Unknown yamx: if it is already deprecated, we can eliminate it. ←

13:34:49 <oedipus> s/RESOLVED: @style is deprecated/eliminated/RESOLVED: @style is eliminated

13:34:54 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

13:34:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←

13:35:10 <ShaneM> s/XHTML1/XHTML1.1/

13:35:36 <oedipus> RM: does that satisfy you, tina?

Roland Merrick: does that satisfy you, tina? ←

13:35:41 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

13:35:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←

13:35:46 <yamx> "deprecate" is a fair warning for future elimination.

Unknown yamx: "deprecate" is a fair warning for future elimination. ←

13:36:03 <oedipus> TH: taking out some controversial things and leaving in others

Tina Holmboe: taking out some controversial things and leaving in others ←

13:36:20 <oedipus> RM: for what has been taken out, have done so because needs been addressed otherwise

Roland Merrick: for what has been taken out, have done so because needs been addressed otherwise ←

13:36:31 <oedipus> RM: not just style for individual element, but grouping of elements

Roland Merrick: not just style for individual element, but grouping of elements ←

13:36:59 <oedipus> SM: agree a separate issue - but don't want to return to today

Shane McCarron: agree a separate issue - but don't want to return to today ←

13:37:05 <oedipus> TH: need policy, not adress ad hoc

Tina Holmboe: need policy, not adress ad hoc ←

13:37:38 <oedipus> SM: do have policy about when things are deprecated or removed - remove when suitable replacement that can be recommended

Shane McCarron: do have policy about when things are deprecated or removed - remove when suitable replacement that can be recommended ←

13:37:52 <oedipus> (scribe's note - consult Yam's comment above, as well)

(scribe's note - consult Yam's comment above, as well) ←

13:38:13 <oedipus> SP: if can show use case can be solved in better way

Steven Pemberton: if can show use case can be solved in better way ←

13:38:31 <oedipus> SM: when features deprecated only done when other things to point to -- good statement to make

Shane McCarron: when features deprecated only done when other things to point to -- good statement to make ←

13:39:17 <oedipus> ACTION: ShaneM - Draft policy statement on migration and evolution

ACTION: ShaneM - Draft policy statement on migration and evolution ←

13:39:23 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

13:39:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←

13:39:31 <yamx> done deal..

Unknown yamx: done deal.. ←

13:39:34 <oedipus> SM: next comment is "please leave @style in"

Shane McCarron: next comment is "please leave @style in" ←

13:39:41 <oedipus> SP: bimodal issue

Steven Pemberton: bimodal issue ←

13:39:54 <oedipus> RM: here we have is what we believe is an alternative

Roland Merrick: here we have is what we believe is an alternative ←

13:40:04 <oedipus> GJR: example BLOCKQUOTE for formatting in HTML4

Gregory Rosmaita: example BLOCKQUOTE for formatting in HTML4 ←

13:40:16 <oedipus> SM: 2 options for specifying styles (link)

Shane McCarron: 2 options for specifying styles (link) ←

13:40:27 <oedipus> SM: recording resolutions in tracking system

Shane McCarron: recording resolutions in tracking system ←

13:41:03 <oedipus> tables bucket: http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/Tables?user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1

tables bucket: http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/Tables?user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1 ←

13:41:10 <oedipus> http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/Tables?id=7828;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1

http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/Tables?id=7828;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1 ←

13:41:23 <oedipus> SM: never understood this comment (issue 7828)

Shane McCarron: never understood this comment (ISSUE-7828) ←

13:41:45 <oedipus> question: "Why no nested colgroup or rowgroup?"

Scribe problem: the name 'question' does not match any of the 10 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Roland Merrick Steven Pemberton Tina Holmboe Gregory Rosmaita Alessio Cartocci Toshihiko Yamakami Shane McCarron Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown question: "Why no nested colgroup or rowgroup?" ←

13:41:55 <oedipus> Alessio: don't understand either

Alessio Cartocci: don't understand either ←

13:42:21 <oedipus> Yam: cannot shed light on it either

Toshihiko Yamakami: cannot shed light on it either ←

13:42:37 <oedipus> SM: reason not to?

Shane McCarron: reason not to? ←

13:42:42 <oedipus> TH: semantic reason why?

Tina Holmboe: semantic reason why? ←

13:42:48 <oedipus> SP: implementation?

Steven Pemberton: implementation? ←

13:42:59 <oedipus> SM: colgroup and rowgroup not supported now

Shane McCarron: colgroup and rowgroup not supported now ←

13:43:43 <oedipus> TH: use case described says common use, but sounds like manipulation of data, not valid markup

Tina Holmboe: use case described says common use, but sounds like manipulation of data, not valid markup ←

13:44:01 <oedipus> RM: need to be able to have aggregation of set of columns

Roland Merrick: need to be able to have aggregation of set of columns ←

13:44:09 <oedipus> TH: can you do with col today?

Tina Holmboe: can you do with col today? ←

13:44:26 <oedipus> RM: dojo tables include sorting of rows

Roland Merrick: dojo tables include sorting of rows ←

13:44:41 <oedipus> GJR notes that this affects @scope (scope="colgroup")

GJR notes that this affects @scope (scope="colgroup") ←

13:44:52 <oedipus> RM: why not just reject

Roland Merrick: why not just reject ←

13:44:56 <oedipus> SM: rationale?

Shane McCarron: rationale? ←

13:45:07 <oedipus> SP: don't understand how the markup would help your use case

Steven Pemberton: don't understand how the markup would help your use case ←

13:45:37 <oedipus> TH: can do what want to do today with col and id - don't see why would want to nest THEAD and TFOOT

Tina Holmboe: can do what want to do today with col and id - don't see why would want to nest THEAD and TFOOT ←

13:45:43 <oedipus> SM: not semantically sensible

Shane McCarron: not semantically sensible ←

13:46:16 <oedipus> RM: suggestion doesn't solve use case - tell us problem, not your idea of solution - what are requirements

Roland Merrick: suggestion doesn't solve use case - tell us problem, not your idea of solution - what are requirements ←

13:46:21 <oedipus> SM: ok

Shane McCarron: ok ←

13:46:35 <oedipus> SM: leave in state of feedback - send and await answer

Shane McCarron: leave in state of feedback - send and await answer ←

13:46:46 <oedipus> http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/Tables?id=7878;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1

http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/Tables?id=7878;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1 ←

13:47:34 <oedipus> SM: question is "what is the scope of a header" = note that we need a better explanation - think this is in wrong bucket - move to structural

Shane McCarron: question is "what is the scope of a header" -- note that we need a better explanation - think this is in wrong bucket - move to structural ←

13:47:48 <oedipus> s/= note/-- note

13:48:56 <oedipus> SM: person responsible for TABLE chapter hasn't been active for a few years - would like to reassign - volunteer?

Shane McCarron: person responsible for TABLE chapter hasn't been active for a few years - would like to reassign - volunteer? ←

13:49:05 <oedipus> zakim, pick a victim

zakim, pick a victim ←

13:49:05 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose yamx

Zakim IRC Bot: Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose yamx ←

13:49:28 <oedipus> TH: i volunteer, but swamped with work - cannot garuntee complete attention

Tina Holmboe: i volunteer, but swamped with work - cannot garuntee complete attention ←

13:49:30 <yamx> Victim..

Unknown yamx: Victim.. ←

13:50:03 <oedipus> SP: if no one else wants it i will take it

Steven Pemberton: if no one else wants it i will take it ←

13:50:08 <oedipus> RM: list of open sections?

Roland Merrick: list of open sections? ←

13:50:27 <oedipus> SM: master list in control system

Shane McCarron: master list in control system ←

13:50:45 <oedipus> SM: only see if admin

Shane McCarron: only see if admin ←

13:51:28 <oedipus> ACTION: ShaneM - create and maintain ownership of wiki page listing who owns what bucket

ACTION: ShaneM - create and maintain ownership of wiki page listing who owns what bucket ←

13:51:35 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

13:51:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←

13:51:49 <oedipus> http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/Tables?id=7879;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1

http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/Tables?id=7879;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1 ←

13:52:31 <oedipus> SM: Issue 7881 related to 7828

Shane McCarron: ISSUE-7881 related to 7828 ←

13:52:32 <oedipus> http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/Tables?id=7881;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1

http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/Tables?id=7881;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1 ←

13:52:43 <oedipus> SM: already asked for more info and a description

Shane McCarron: already asked for more info and a description ←

13:53:18 <oedipus> SM: follow-ups to public discussion list, so other people chime in

Shane McCarron: follow-ups to public discussion list, so other people chime in ←

13:53:50 <oedipus> SM: claims can put in multiple TBODY elements and magic ocurs

Shane McCarron: claims can put in multiple TBODY elements and magic ocurs ←

13:54:43 <oedipus> SM: will examine more

Shane McCarron: will examine more ←

13:54:54 <oedipus> SM: text bucket http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/Text?user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1

Shane McCarron: text bucket http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/Text?user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1 ←

13:55:20 <oedipus> SM: Issue 7876 agreed but marked as open

Shane McCarron: ISSUE-7876 agreed but marked as open ←

13:55:33 <oedipus> http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/Text?id=7876;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1

http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/Text?id=7876;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1 ←

13:55:45 <oedipus> http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/Text?id=7882;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1

http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/Text?id=7882;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1 ←

13:55:56 <oedipus> SM: requested example of L versus BR from submiter

Shane McCarron: requested example of L versus BR from submiter ←

13:56:04 <oedipus> SM: many requests to have BR reinstated

Shane McCarron: many requests to have BR reinstated ←

13:56:12 <oedipus> SP: thought agreed to do it

Steven Pemberton: thought agreed to do it ←

13:56:23 <oedipus> SM: ok

Shane McCarron: ok ←

13:57:17 <oedipus> (Shane experiences technical difficulties)

(Shane experiences technical difficulties) ←

13:57:29 <oedipus> TH: use case for 7882 doesn't make sense

Tina Holmboe: use case for 7882 doesn't make sense ←

13:57:48 <oedipus> SM: agree

Shane McCarron: agree ←

13:58:13 <oedipus> SM: example spurious, but number of people including DanC and TBL who want it back in, so don't really have choice

Shane McCarron: example spurious, but number of people including DanC and TBL who want it back in, so don't really have choice ←

13:58:20 <oedipus> SP: did agree to restore a while ago

Steven Pemberton: did agree to restore a while ago ←

13:58:30 <oedipus> RM: should be implementable in existing browsers

Roland Merrick: should be implementable in existing browsers ←

13:58:53 <oedipus> TH: other use cases for BR - so don't mind having back

Tina Holmboe: other use cases for BR - so don't mind having back ←

13:59:01 <oedipus> http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/Text?id=7885;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1

http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/Text?id=7885;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1 ←

13:59:21 <oedipus> SM: 7885 - DFN

Shane McCarron: 7885 - DFN ←

13:59:57 <oedipus> TH: nothing to do with italics and i and typography - has specific semantic interpretation

Tina Holmboe: nothing to do with italics and i and typography - has specific semantic interpretation ←

14:00:12 <oedipus> TH: argument is "traditional typographers"

Tina Holmboe: argument is "traditional typographers" ←

14:00:20 <oedipus> SP: means don't want just I

Steven Pemberton: means don't want just I ←

14:00:42 <oedipus> RM: agree to put DFN in?

Roland Merrick: agree to put DFN in? ←

14:00:48 <oedipus> SP: don't remember removing it?

Steven Pemberton: don't remember removing it? ←

14:00:52 <oedipus> SP: why would we have?

Steven Pemberton: why would we have? ←

14:01:03 <oedipus> GJR: think still there

Gregory Rosmaita: think still there ←

14:01:13 <oedipus> SP: think just missed it - don't think we ever took it out

Steven Pemberton: think just missed it - don't think we ever took it out ←

14:01:22 <oedipus> RM: be happy

Roland Merrick: be happy ←

14:01:30 <oedipus> SP: which module?

Steven Pemberton: which module? ←

14:01:30 <alessio> agree, dfn has a scope

Alessio Cartocci: agree, dfn has a scope ←

14:01:32 <oedipus> SM: text

Shane McCarron: text ←

14:01:45 <oedipus> SM: probably inline - PCDATA or text

Shane McCarron: probably inline - PCDATA or text ←

14:01:56 <oedipus> SM: can't have DFN that is a DIV

Shane McCarron: can't have DFN that is a DIV ←

14:02:26 <yamx> I have access to w3c.

Unknown yamx: I have access to w3c. ←

14:02:49 <oedipus> SM: 7899 already agreed

Shane McCarron: 7899 already agreed ←

14:02:59 <oedipus> http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/XForms?user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1

http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/XForms?user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1 ←

14:03:05 <oedipus> SM: section on XForms

Shane McCarron: section on XForms ←

14:03:18 <oedipus> SM: http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/XForms?id=7826;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1

Shane McCarron: http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/XForms?id=7826;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1 ←

14:03:40 <oedipus> SM: states: "they are presentational and shouldn't be in structural langauge"

Shane McCarron: states: "they are presentational and shouldn't be in structural langauge" ←

14:03:52 <oedipus> SP: misunderstanding of XForms

Steven Pemberton: misunderstanding of XForms ←

14:04:11 <oedipus> SM: not permitted to sub-set XForms, and if didn't have, would compromise XForms

Shane McCarron: not permitted to sub-set XForms, and if didn't have, would compromise XForms ←

14:04:21 <oedipus> RM: bring up with XForms group

Roland Merrick: bring up with XForms group ←

14:04:39 <oedipus> SM: reject request - go tell Forms

Shane McCarron: reject request - go tell Forms ←

14:04:54 <oedipus> SM: autocomplete attribute

Shane McCarron: autocomplete attribute ←

14:04:54 <oedipus> http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/XForms?id=7838;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1

http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/XForms?id=7838;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1 ←

14:05:19 <oedipus> SP: not our issue, please consult Forms WG

Steven Pemberton: not our issue, please consult Forms WG ←

14:05:26 <oedipus> RM: already replied that

Roland Merrick: already replied that ←

14:05:38 <oedipus> RM: you added question - what would they do?

Roland Merrick: you added question - what would they do? ←

14:05:51 <oedipus> RM: not in our scope

Roland Merrick: not in our scope ←

14:05:55 <oedipus> SM: agree and marked as such

Shane McCarron: agree and marked as such ←

14:06:04 <alessio> +1

Alessio Cartocci: +1 ←

14:06:13 <oedipus> http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/XHTML-2.0?user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1

http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/XHTML-2.0?user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1 ←

14:06:20 <oedipus> http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/XHTML-2.0?id=674;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1

http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/XHTML-2.0?id=674;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1 ←

14:06:36 <oedipus> SM: Issue 674 suspended - decided to use parameter on mediatype

Shane McCarron: ISSUE-674 suspended - decided to use parameter on mediatype ←

14:06:45 <oedipus> SM: have to do something about it

Shane McCarron: have to do something about it ←

14:07:06 <oedipus> SP: if want to do that, have to update RFC, so is our responsibility

Steven Pemberton: if want to do that, have to update RFC, so is our responsibility ←

14:07:08 <oedipus> SM: ok

Shane McCarron: ok ←

14:07:22 <oedipus> RM: who can work IETF process

Roland Merrick: who can work IETF process ←

14:08:02 <oedipus> ACTION: ShaneM - write up how WG believes parameters should work on media type and talk with Mark Baker about how to get RFC updated

ACTION: ShaneM - write up how WG believes parameters should work on media type and talk with Mark Baker about how to get RFC updated ←

14:08:33 <oedipus> SP: RFC 3236 -

Steven Pemberton: RFC 3236 - ←

14:09:12 <oedipus> SP: application+xml has optional profile parameter - section 8 says "this parameter solves short-term problem of ... used only in content negotiation"

Steven Pemberton: application+xml has optional profile parameter - section 8 says "this parameter solves short-term problem of ... used only in content negotiation" ←

14:09:19 <oedipus> SM: XHTML Basic doesn't use it

Shane McCarron: XHTML Basic doesn't use it ←

14:09:23 <oedipus> SP: thought it did

Steven Pemberton: thought it did ←

14:09:38 <yamx> we use profile in OMA.

Unknown yamx: we use profile in OMA. ←

14:09:44 <oedipus> SP: XHTML Basic usage in OMA has different specifications

Steven Pemberton: XHTML Basic usage in OMA has different specifications ←

14:09:47 <yamx> yes.

Unknown yamx: yes. ←

14:09:54 <yamx> in XHTML Mobile Profile.

Unknown yamx: in XHTML Mobile Profile. ←

14:10:11 <oedipus> SP: looks to me like don't have to update 3236 - can use profile and say "this is the value of profile"

Steven Pemberton: looks to me like don't have to update 3236 - can use profile and say "this is the value of profile" ←

14:10:16 <oedipus> SM: put in language specs?

Shane McCarron: put in language specs? ←

14:10:25 <oedipus> SM: if want this, use profile X

Shane McCarron: if want this, use profile X ←

14:10:40 <oedipus> SM: M12n - which families of XHTML you support

Shane McCarron: M12n - which families of XHTML you support ←

14:10:49 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

14:10:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←

14:11:14 <oedipus> SM: want to address 7726

Shane McCarron: want to address 7726 ←

14:11:15 <oedipus> http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/XHTML-2.0?id=7726;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1

http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/XHTML-2.0?id=7726;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1 ←

14:11:38 <oedipus> SM: Issue 7726 - Add XInclude module

Shane McCarron: ISSUE-7726 - Add XInclude module ←

14:11:50 <oedipus> SM: requestor wants XInclude

Shane McCarron: requestor wants XInclude ←

14:12:01 <oedipus> SM: think he is wrong - won't replace FRAME or IFRAME

Shane McCarron: think he is wrong - won't replace FRAME or IFRAME ←

14:12:19 <oedipus> SP: bit complicated, but would solve what TH and i discussed earlier

Steven Pemberton: bit complicated, but would solve what TH and i discussed earlier ←

14:12:33 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/REC-xinclude-20041220/

http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/REC-xinclude-20041220/ ←

14:12:43 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/TR/xinclude/

http://www.w3.org/TR/xinclude/ ←

14:12:43 <ShaneM> The working group is considering this in the context of the larger issue of embedding resources in documents.

Shane McCarron: The working group is considering this in the context of the larger issue of embedding resources in documents. ←

14:12:55 <oedipus> SM: proposed comment

Shane McCarron: proposed comment ←

14:13:04 <oedipus> SM: when have answer, return to issue

Shane McCarron: when have answer, return to issue ←

14:13:09 <oedipus> RM: reasonable

Roland Merrick: reasonable ←

14:13:14 <oedipus> (no objections logged)

(no objections logged) ←

14:13:40 <oedipus> ACTION: Roland - investigate what would be involved by adding XInclude

ACTION: Roland - investigate what would be involved by adding XInclude ←

14:13:54 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

14:13:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←

14:14:17 <oedipus> SM: next issue: MediaDesc with CSS3

Shane McCarron: next issue: MediaDesc with CSS3 ←

14:14:18 <oedipus> http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/XHTML-2.0?id=7729;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1

http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/XHTML-2.0?id=7729;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1 ←

14:14:26 <oedipus> SM: CSS3 not going to be ready soon

Shane McCarron: CSS3 not going to be ready soon ←

14:14:40 <oedipus> SP: been in CR since june 2007

Steven Pemberton: been in CR since june 2007 ←

14:14:49 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/CR-css3-mediaqueries-20020708

http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/CR-css3-mediaqueries-20020708 ←

14:15:01 <oedipus> SP: not against this, but not rec so can't quote yet

Steven Pemberton: not against this, but not rec so can't quote yet ←

14:15:17 <oedipus> SM: why labelled as open

Shane McCarron: why labelled as open ←

14:15:44 <oedipus> SM: notes for Issues 7659 and 7656 need to be broken into individual issues

Shane McCarron: notes for Issues 7659 and 7656 need to be broken into individual issues ←

14:15:55 <oedipus> TH: nothing need to do until broken down

Tina Holmboe: nothing need to do until broken down ←

14:16:03 <oedipus> SM: we need to do the breaking down

Shane McCarron: we need to do the breaking down ←

14:16:38 <oedipus> ACTION: ShaneM - break Issues 7659 and 7656 into individual issues so can be addressed

ACTION: ShaneM - break Issues 7659 and 7656 into individual issues so can be addressed ←

14:16:45 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

14:16:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←

14:17:07 <oedipus> SM: handful of items in XML Events

Shane McCarron: handful of items in XML Events ←

14:17:38 <oedipus> RM: this is what you do now

Roland Merrick: this is what you do now ←

14:17:49 <oedipus> SM: should put in spec, right?

Shane McCarron: should put in spec, right? ←

14:17:53 <oedipus> RM: in new Script Module

Roland Merrick: in new Script Module ←

14:18:29 <oedipus> SP: 8018 - NOSCRIPT is there because of Document.Write - if can't do document.write, don't need NOSCRIPT - insert NOSCRIPT into document and let SCRIPT get rid of it

Steven Pemberton: 8018 - NOSCRIPT is there because of Document.Write - if can't do document.write, don't need NOSCRIPT - insert NOSCRIPT into document and let SCRIPT get rid of it ←

14:18:50 <oedipus> RM: what i used to do, what i do now, what i can expect when serve to legacy UA

Roland Merrick: what i used to do, what i do now, what i can expect when serve to legacy UA ←

14:19:13 <oedipus> SM: requirement for NOSCRIPT

Shane McCarron: requirement for NOSCRIPT ←

14:19:31 <oedipus> SP: replied to guy and he thinks he understands it

Steven Pemberton: replied to guy and he thinks he understands it ←

14:20:07 <oedipus> SM: i'll find it

Shane McCarron: i'll find it ←

14:20:22 <oedipus> SP: explained and said this issue can be closed by mutual agreement

Steven Pemberton: explained and said this issue can be closed by mutual agreement ←

14:20:45 <oedipus> SP: reply to him, WG and wg-issues

Steven Pemberton: reply to him, WG and wg-issues ←

14:21:15 <oedipus> lists.w3.org/archives/public/public-xhtml2

lists.w3.org/archives/public/public-xhtml2 ←

14:21:27 <oedipus> SM: not in issue tracking sytem - will close issue

Shane McCarron: not in issue tracking sytem - will close issue ←

14:21:53 <Steven_> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Aug/0018.html

Steven Pemberton: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Aug/0018.html ←

14:22:05 <Steven_> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Aug/0019.html

Steven Pemberton: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Aug/0019.html ←

14:22:31 <oedipus> SM: John Boyer submitted a couple of issues

Shane McCarron: John Boyer submitted a couple of issues ←

14:23:01 <oedipus> 8029 - Issue with phase attribute in XML Events 2

8029 - Issue with phase attribute in XML Events 2 ←

14:23:06 <oedipus> http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/XMLEvents?id=8029;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1

http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/XMLEvents?id=8029;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1 ←

14:23:12 <oedipus> SM: additional @target

Shane McCarron: additional @target ←

14:23:15 <oedipus> SP: done that

Steven Pemberton: done that ←

14:23:21 <oedipus> RM: yes

Roland Merrick: yes ←

14:23:33 <oedipus> Issue 8029 closed

ISSUE-8029 closed ←

14:23:39 <oedipus> http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/XMLEvents?id=8030;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1

http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/XMLEvents?id=8030;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1 ←

14:24:02 <oedipus> SM: if and while attributes - evaluation not defined - we have done with XPath section

Shane McCarron: if and while attributes - evaluation context not defined - we have done with XPath section ←

14:24:15 <oedipus> SM: context is there is no context

Shane McCarron: context is there is no context ←

14:24:24 <Steven_> s/evaluation/evaluation context/

14:24:44 <oedipus> Issue 8031 - XML Events with repeated content

ISSUE-8031 - XML Events with repeated content ←

14:24:45 <oedipus> http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/XMLEvents?id=8031;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1

http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/XMLEvents?id=8031;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1 ←

14:24:57 <oedipus> SM: thought Forms WG discussed, but don't know how to fix

Shane McCarron: thought Forms WG discussed, but don't know how to fix ←

14:25:29 <oedipus> "Now, we would like to be able to say that the item element is the target of the xforms-hint event so that one can provide item-specific events. Yet"

"Now, we would like to be able to say that the item element is the target of the xforms-hint event so that one can provide item-specific events. Yet" ←

14:25:59 <oedipus> RM: done a lot of updates to XML Events 2 covering this, so should suggest they take another look

Roland Merrick: done a lot of updates to XML Events 2 covering this, so should suggest they take another look ←

14:26:21 <oedipus> SP: think his problem is that markup doesn't match DOM tree

Steven Pemberton: think his problem is that markup doesn't match DOM tree ←

14:26:33 <oedipus> SP: due to repeats expanding DOM tree

Steven Pemberton: due to repeats expanding DOM tree ←

14:27:00 <oedipus> SP: think this is XForms

Steven Pemberton: think this is XForms'' problem ←

14:27:20 <oedipus> s/XForms/XForms'' problem

14:28:02 <oedipus> SP: XForms has to define triggering - element repeats causes DOM tree to expand, need to find out what happens with Events - do handlers get duplicated for every repeated sub-tree

Steven Pemberton: XForms has to define triggering - element repeats causes DOM tree to expand, need to find out what happens with Events - do handlers get duplicated for every repeated sub-tree ←

14:28:26 <oedipus> SM: should ask to look at document again

Shane McCarron: should ask to look at document again ←

14:28:39 <oedipus> RM: DOM tree events are choices they made

Roland Merrick: DOM tree events are choices they made ←

14:28:55 <oedipus> SM: assigning XML Events bucket to you

Shane McCarron: assigning XML Events bucket to you ←

14:29:02 <oedipus> SP: end?

Steven Pemberton: end? ←

14:29:12 <oedipus> SM: save for the massive "incoming" bucket

Shane McCarron: save for the massive "incoming" bucket ←

14:29:37 <oedipus> RM: 15 minute break then go through other agenda items (update requests) and if time and energy can attack incoming

Roland Merrick: 15 minute break then go through other agenda items (update requests) and if time and energy can attack incoming ←

14:29:53 <oedipus> SM: data point: RDFa group meeting in 3 minutes time - someone from this WG needs to be there

Shane McCarron: data point: RDFa group meeting in 3 minutes time - someone from this WG needs to be there ←

14:29:58 <oedipus> SP: i have to leave at 5

Steven Pemberton: i have to leave at 5 ←

14:30:20 <Zakim> -ShaneM

Zakim IRC Bot: -ShaneM ←

14:30:23 <Zakim> -Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: -Steven ←

14:30:26 <oedipus> ======== FIFTEEN MINUTE BREAK =============

7. FIFTEEN MINUTE BREAK =============

14:30:28 <Zakim> -Tina

Zakim IRC Bot: -Tina ←

14:30:33 <yamx> ok, see you later.

Unknown yamx: ok, see you later. ←

14:30:36 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita

Zakim IRC Bot: -Gregory_Rosmaita ←

14:30:39 <Zakim> -yamx

Zakim IRC Bot: -yamx ←

14:32:20 <Zakim> -Alessio

Zakim IRC Bot: -Alessio ←

14:42:52 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes

(No events recorded for 10 minutes)

rrsagent, make minutes ←

14:42:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←

14:45:05 <Zakim> +ShaneM

Zakim IRC Bot: +ShaneM ←

14:45:38 <Steven_> zakim, dial steven-617

Steven Pemberton: zakim, dial steven-617 ←

14:45:39 <Zakim> ok, Steven_; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven_; the call is being made ←

14:45:40 <Zakim> +Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: +Steven ←

14:46:20 <Zakim> +??P6

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P6 ←

14:46:22 <Zakim> +??P7

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P7 ←

14:46:26 <alessio> zakim, ??P6 is Alessio

Alessio Cartocci: zakim, ??P6 is Alessio ←

14:46:26 <Zakim> +Alessio; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Alessio; got it ←

14:46:29 <ShaneM> CURIE further update: http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/htmlwg/curie/

Shane McCarron: CURIE further update: http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/htmlwg/curie/ ←

14:46:35 <yamx> zakim, ??P7 is yamx

Unknown yamx: zakim, ??P7 is yamx ←

14:46:35 <Zakim> +yamx; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +yamx; got it ←

14:46:54 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita

Zakim IRC Bot: +Gregory_Rosmaita ←

14:47:18 <oedipus> ok

ok ←

14:47:34 <yamx> This is the first time to make any intensive XHTML2 issue discussion in my 2-year XHTML2 experinece.

Unknown yamx: This is the first time to make any intensive XHTML2 issue discussion in my 2-year XHTML2 experinece. ←

14:47:44 <alessio> :)

Alessio Cartocci: :) ←

14:47:54 <yamx> :-)

Unknown yamx: :-) ←

14:48:05 <oedipus> TOPIC: CURIEs Update

8. CURIEs Update

14:48:16 <oedipus> SM: new update in response to latest comments

Shane McCarron: new update in response to latest comments ←

14:48:17 <ShaneM> http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/htmlwg/curie/curie-diff.html

Shane McCarron: http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/htmlwg/curie/curie-diff.html ←

14:48:25 <oedipus> http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/htmlwg/curie/

http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/htmlwg/curie/ ←

14:49:20 <oedipus> SM: incorporated all changes discussed on tuesday; brief discussion wednesday morning, and updated appendix a to be informative, pointed to normative datatype module, and

Shane McCarron: incorporated all changes discussed on tuesday; brief discussion wednesday morning, and updated appendix a to be informative, pointed to normative datatype module, and ←

14:49:39 <Steven> Are people talking? I hear nothing

Steven Pemberton: Are people talking? I hear nothing ←

14:49:55 <oedipus> SM: not sure what to do about declaring normative

Shane McCarron: not sure what to do about declaring normative ←

14:50:05 <Zakim> -Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: -Steven ←

14:50:11 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617

Steven Pemberton: zakim, dial steven-617 ←

14:50:11 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven; the call is being made ←

14:50:13 <oedipus> RM: inferred? do we want to define a normative def

Roland Merrick: inferred? do we want to define a normative def ←

14:50:13 <Zakim> +Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: +Steven ←

14:50:27 <oedipus> SM: M12n doesn't know about CURIEs yet

Shane McCarron: M12n doesn't know about CURIEs yet ←

14:50:57 <oedipus> SM: think we should just go for it

Shane McCarron: think we should just go for it ←

14:51:16 <oedipus> SM: suggestion is change this so those are normative definitions?

Shane McCarron: suggestion is change this so those are normative definitions? ←

14:51:47 <oedipus> GJR, ok with me

GJR, ok with me ←

14:51:59 <alessio> +1

Alessio Cartocci: +1 ←

14:52:00 <yamx> PR, no objection.

Unknown yamx: PR, no objection. ←

14:52:01 <oedipus> SM: can we move forward to PR transition based on this draft?

Shane McCarron: can we move forward to PR transition based on this draft? ←

14:52:20 <yamx> CR, no objection.

Unknown yamx: CR, no objection. ←

14:52:25 <oedipus> RESOLVED: transition CURIEs to CR

RESOLVED: transition CURIEs to CR ←

14:52:31 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

14:52:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←

14:52:44 <oedipus> RM: good - one down

Roland Merrick: good - one down ←

14:52:53 <Zakim> +Tina

Zakim IRC Bot: +Tina ←

14:52:54 <Steven> ACTION: Steven to organise CURIEs CR

ACTION: Steven to organise CURIEs CR ←

14:53:04 <oedipus> TOPIC: XHTML Access

9. XHTML Access

14:53:23 <oedipus> SM: decided to postpone access

Shane McCarron: decided to postpone access ←

14:53:27 <oedipus> TOPIC: XHTML Role

10. XHTML Role

14:53:30 <ShaneM> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtml-role-20080617/

Shane McCarron: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtml-role-20080617/ ←

14:53:46 <oedipus> SM: update based on f2f discussions - prepared for CR

Shane McCarron: update based on f2f discussions - prepared for CR ←

14:54:21 <oedipus> SM: incorporate all changes we discussed except links to examples from ARIA - wasn't comfortable putting in at top of Section 3

Shane McCarron: incorporate all changes we discussed except links to examples from ARIA - wasn't comfortable putting in at top of Section 3 ←

14:54:34 <oedipus> SM: tried to remember what we were trying to demonstrate

Shane McCarron: tried to remember what we were trying to demonstrate ←

14:54:48 <oedipus> RM: bad practice <div role="paragraph">

Roland Merrick: bad practice <div role="paragraph"> ←

14:54:58 <oedipus> i can get a better example

i can get a better example ←

14:55:24 <Tina> Where was the best-practice bit added?

Tina Holmboe: Where was the best-practice bit added? ←

14:55:34 <oedipus> tina, top of sectoin 3

tina, top of sectoin 3 ←

14:55:59 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtml-role-20080617/#s_role_module_attributes

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtml-role-20080617/#s_role_module_attributes ←

14:56:11 <Tina> I'm fine with the wording

Tina Holmboe: I'm fine with the wording ←

14:56:41 <oedipus> SM: example in here now role="navigation sitemap" -- should fix - don't define navigation sitemap

Shane McCarron: example in here now role="navigation sitemap" -- should fix - don't define navigation sitemap ←

14:56:46 <oedipus> 'SM: other examples?

'SM: other examples? ←

14:57:28 <oedipus> GJR: a real list versus a bunch of lines separated by <br /> or using div /div instead of l /l

Gregory Rosmaita: a real list versus a bunch of lines separated by <br /> or using div /div instead of l /l ←

14:57:35 <alessio> what about role="video" or role="presentation" ?

Alessio Cartocci: what about role="video" or role="presentation" ? ←

14:57:40 <oedipus> RM: appropriate and then inappropriate example

Roland Merrick: appropriate and then inappropriate example ←

14:58:15 <oedipus> ACTION: ShaneM - provide appropriate and then inappropriate example for Section 3

ACTION: ShaneM - provide appropriate and then inappropriate example for Section 3 ←

14:58:29 <oedipus> GJR will help ShaneM - there are better examples i can provide

GJR will help ShaneM - there are better examples i can provide ←

14:58:42 <oedipus> RM: Shane, leaving for RDFa call?

Roland Merrick: Shane, leaving for RDFa call? ←

14:58:49 <oedipus> SM: if i can be spared

Shane McCarron: if i can be spared ←

14:58:53 <oedipus> RM: scheduling

Roland Merrick: scheduling ←

14:59:05 <alessio> and I'll help shane + gregory ;)

Alessio Cartocci: and I'll help shane + gregory ;) ←

14:59:24 <oedipus> RM: how long to take to get thorugh CR transitions?

Roland Merrick: how long to take to get thorugh CR transitions? ←

14:59:36 <oedipus> SP: which ones - depends on how long have to wait for implementations

Steven Pemberton: which ones - depends on how long have to wait for implementations ←

14:59:42 <oedipus> RM: CURIEs

Roland Merrick: CURIEs ←

14:59:57 <oedipus> SP: RDFa providing implementations

Steven Pemberton: RDFa providing implementations ←

15:00:11 <oedipus> RM: roadmap POV - get to CR before july

Roland Merrick: roadmap POV - get to CR before july ←

15:00:22 <oedipus> RM: CURIEs and Role into CR in July 2008

Roland Merrick: CURIEs and Role into CR in July 2008 ←

15:00:24 <oedipus> SP: yes

Steven Pemberton: yes ←

15:00:27 <oedipus> SM: works for me

Shane McCarron: works for me ←

15:00:39 <oedipus> RM: new draft of XHTML2 by end of next week or end of month

Roland Merrick: new draft of XHTML2 by end of next week or end of month ←

15:00:40 <oedipus> SM: sure

Shane McCarron: sure ←

15:00:50 <oedipus> RM: other significant roadmapping items?

Roland Merrick: other significant roadmapping items? ←

15:00:55 <Steven> Future meetings?

Steven Pemberton: Future meetings? ←

15:01:01 <oedipus> RM: 2 gone to PR - Basic and M12n

Roland Merrick: 2 gone to PR - Basic and M12n ←

15:01:14 <oedipus> SM: 30 day period

Shane McCarron: 30 day period ←

15:01:21 <oedipus> SP: out of our hands - happens or doesn'

Steven Pemberton: out of our hands - happens or doesn' ←

15:01:23 <oedipus> t

t ←

15:01:32 <oedipus> RM: Role Module to CR timeframe?

Roland Merrick: Role Module to CR timeframe? ←

15:01:38 <oedipus> RM: July 2008?

Roland Merrick: July 2008? ←

15:01:46 <oedipus> SP: take CURIEs and Role at same call

Steven Pemberton: take CURIEs and Role at same call ←

15:01:58 <oedipus> RM: Access Module holdup?

Roland Merrick: Access Module holdup? ←

15:02:04 <oedipus> RM: waiting for feedback

Roland Merrick: waiting for feedback ←

15:02:22 <oedipus> RM: XML Events 2

Roland Merrick: XML Events 2 ←

15:02:32 <oedipus> RM: Last Call for XML Events 2 in July

Roland Merrick: Last Call for XML Events 2 in July ←

15:02:37 <oedipus> SP: sounds good if we can

Steven Pemberton: sounds good if we can ←

15:02:51 <oedipus> SP: away first 3 weeks of july

Steven Pemberton: away first 3 weeks of july ←

15:03:09 <oedipus> RM: anything else to discuss? will update roadmap this week

Roland Merrick: anything else to discuss? will update roadmap this week ←

15:03:15 <Steven> future meetings

Steven Pemberton: future meetings ←

15:03:24 <oedipus> RM: schedule block of time on next few calls to go through rest of XHTML2 issues

Roland Merrick: schedule block of time on next few calls to go through rest of XHTML2 issues ←

15:03:28 <oedipus> SP: future meetings

Steven Pemberton: future meetings ←

15:03:47 <oedipus> RM: next scheduled one is at TPAC in south of france (october 2008)

Roland Merrick: next scheduled one is at TPAC in south of france (october 2008) ←

15:04:12 <oedipus> SM: are we meeting next wednesday?

Shane McCarron: are we meeting next wednesday? ←

15:04:14 <oedipus> RM: yes

Roland Merrick: yes ←

15:04:20 <oedipus> SM: would prefer we do

Shane McCarron: would prefer we do ←

15:04:41 <Zakim> -ShaneM

Zakim IRC Bot: -ShaneM ←

15:04:50 <oedipus> SP: adjournment?

Steven Pemberton: adjournment? ←

15:04:55 <oedipus> SP: great meeting

Steven Pemberton: great meeting ←

15:05:01 <oedipus> RM: thanks everybody

Roland Merrick: thanks everybody ←

15:05:14 <Zakim> -Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: -Steven ←

15:05:15 <oedipus> RM: lets keep the momentum -- until next week...

Roland Merrick: lets keep the momentum -- until next week... ←

15:05:15 <Zakim> -Roland

Zakim IRC Bot: -Roland ←

15:05:17 <Zakim> -yamx

Zakim IRC Bot: -yamx ←

15:05:19 <Zakim> -Tina

Zakim IRC Bot: -Tina ←

15:05:24 <oedipus> ========= ADJOURN ==========

11. ADJOURN ==========

15:05:30 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

15:05:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←

15:05:34 <Steven> thanks Gregory for minuting today

Steven Pemberton: thanks Gregory for minuting today ←

15:05:36 <Zakim> -Alessio

Zakim IRC Bot: -Alessio ←

15:05:51 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita

Zakim IRC Bot: -Gregory_Rosmaita ←

15:05:52 <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()4:00AM has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: IA_XHTML2()4:00AM has ended ←

15:05:53 <Zakim> Attendees were Roland, Gregory_Rosmaita, yamx, Alessio, Steven, ShaneM, Tina

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were Roland, Gregory_Rosmaita, yamx, Alessio, Steven, ShaneM, Tina ←

15:05:55 <Tina> oedipus: thank you :)

Gregory Rosmaita: thank you :) [ Scribe Assist by Tina Holmboe ] ←

15:05:59 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes

Steven Pemberton: rrsagent, make minutes ←

15:05:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html Steven

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html Steven ←

15:06:02 <oedipus> you are welcome

you are welcome ←

15:06:15 <oedipus> it's a pleasure to be in a WG that actually lives up to its name!

it's a pleasure to be in a WG that actually lives up to its name! ←

15:06:30 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

15:06:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←

15:07:56 <oedipus> s/@style is deprecated/eliminated/@style is eliminated

15:07:59 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

15:07:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←

15:09:06 <oedipus> s/@style is deprecated/eliminated/@style is eliminated/

15:09:09 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

15:09:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←

15:10:04 <oedipus> s/RESOLVED: @style is deprecated/eliminated/RESOLVED: @style is eliminated

s/RESOLVED: @style is deprecated/eliminated/RESOLVED: @style is eliminated (warning: replacement failed) ←

15:10:06 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

15:10:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←

15:11:00 <oedipus> is ]] the escape for sed?

is ]] the escape for sed? ←

15:11:26 <oedipus> trying to change s/RESOLVED: @style is deprecated/eliminated to RESOLVED: @style is eliminated

trying to change s/RESOLVED: @style is eliminated/eliminated to RESOLVED: @style is eliminated ←

15:12:08 <oedipus> s/RESOLVED: @style is deprecated/RESOLVED: @style is eliminated

15:12:13 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

15:12:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←

15:13:33 <oedipus> grrrr

grrrr ←

15:17:22 <oedipus> rrsagent, please part

rrsagent, please part ←

15:17:22 <RRSAgent> I see 14 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-actions.rdf :

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see 14 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-actions.rdf : ←

15:17:22 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Roland to reply to HTML5 WG to communicate our resolution on XHTML naming [1]

ACTION: Roland to reply to HTML5 WG to communicate our resolution on XHTML naming [1] ←

15:17:22 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-irc#T08-42-37

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-irc#T08-42-37 ←

15:17:22 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Steven to start an implementation page on the wiki [2]

ACTION: Steven to start an implementation page on the wiki [2] ←

15:17:22 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-irc#T09-31-07

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-irc#T09-31-07 ←

15:17:22 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ShaneM - incorporate Access, Role, XML Events (in 3 modules: Events, Handlers, Script), and RDFa modules through external reference to XHTML2? [3]

ACTION: ShaneM - incorporate Access, Role, XML Events (in 3 modules: Events, Handlers, Script), and RDFa modules through external reference to XHTML2? [3] ←

15:17:22 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-irc#T09-44-33

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-irc#T09-44-33 ←

15:17:22 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Steven - devote brain cycles to solving quality values question [4]

ACTION: Steven - devote brain cycles to solving quality values question [4] ←

15:17:22 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-irc#T10-17-53

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-irc#T10-17-53 ←

15:17:22 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Steven - combine answer to ISSUE 7800 with answer to ISSUE 7799 [5]

ACTION: Steven - combine answer to ISSUE-7800 with answer to ISSUE-7799 [5] ←

15:17:22 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-irc#T10-19-56

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-irc#T10-19-56 ←

15:17:22 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Steven add text to @src section to make clear that item not in DOM and clarify styling implications [6]

ACTION: Steven add text to @src section to make clear that item not in DOM and clarify styling implications [6] ←

15:17:22 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-irc#T10-43-24

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-irc#T10-43-24 ←

15:17:22 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Shane to add ITS into the XHTML 2 Doctype section [7]

ACTION: Shane to add ITS into the XHTML 2 Doctype section [7] ←

15:17:22 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-irc#T13-05-49

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-irc#T13-05-49 ←

15:17:22 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ShaneM - Draft policy statement on migration and evolution [8]

ACTION: ShaneM - Draft policy statement on migration and evolution [8] ←

15:17:22 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-irc#T13-39-17

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-irc#T13-39-17 ←

15:17:22 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ShaneM - create and maintain ownership of wiki page listing who owns what bucket [9]

ACTION: ShaneM - create and maintain ownership of wiki page listing who owns what bucket [9] ←

15:17:22 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-irc#T13-51-28

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-irc#T13-51-28 ←

15:17:22 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ShaneM - write up how WG believes parameters should work on media type and talk with Mark Baker about how to get RFC updated [10]

ACTION: ShaneM - write up how WG believes parameters should work on media type and talk with Mark Baker about how to get RFC updated [10] ←

15:17:22 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-irc#T14-08-02

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-irc#T14-08-02 ←

15:17:22 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Roland - investigate what would be involved by adding XInclude [11]

ACTION: Roland - investigate what would be involved by adding XInclude [11] ←

15:17:22 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-irc#T14-13-40

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-irc#T14-13-40 ←

15:17:22 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ShaneM - break Issues 7659 and 7656 into individual issues so can be addressed [12]

ACTION: ShaneM - break Issues 7659 and 7656 into individual issues so can be addressed [12] ←

15:17:22 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-irc#T14-16-38

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-irc#T14-16-38 ←

15:17:22 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Steven to organise CURIEs CR [13]

ACTION: Steven to organise CURIEs CR [13] ←

15:17:22 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-irc#T14-52-54

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-irc#T14-52-54 ←

15:17:22 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ShaneM - provide appropriate and then inappropriate example for Section 3 [14]

ACTION: ShaneM - provide appropriate and then inappropriate example for Section 3 [14] ←

15:17:22 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-irc#T14-58-15

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-irc#T14-58-15 ←

Formatted by CommonScribe