Meeting Record

XHTML2 WG Virtual FtF, Day 2

Minutes of 18 June 2008

Agenda

04http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2008-06-FtF-Agenda01

Seen

Alessio Cartocci, Gregory Rosmaita, Roland Merrick, Shane McCarron, Steven Pemberton, Tina Holmboe, Toshihiko Yamakami, Unknown yamx

Chair

Roland Merrick

Scribe

Gregory Rosmaita, Steven Pemberton

IRC Log

Original

Resolutions

in mimetype document use HTML4-compatible and HTML4-foo wherever appears in document to remove confusion link
take XHTML 1.1 to Second Edition by simply adding Schema and Errata link
Proposal for XHTML 1.2 - Content and Timescale as outlined here link
will break into 3 Modules: XML Events Module, XML Handlers Module, and Script Module link

Topics

CURIEs
XHTML Mime Type
15 MINUTE BREAK ===
ADJOURN FOR LUNCH - RETURN in 77 Minutes (quarter to next hour ======
XHTML 1.n (Follow on to 1.1)
15 MINUTE BREAK ======
XML Events 2
Feature identification in of XML Events
ADJOURN ============

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07:42:14 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/06/18-xhtml-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/06/18-xhtml-irc ←

07:42:27 <Steven_> zakim, this will be xhtml

Steven Pemberton: zakim, this will be xhtml ←

07:42:27 <Zakim> ok, Steven_; I see IA_XHTML2()4:00AM scheduled to start in 18 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven_; I see IA_XHTML2()4:00AM scheduled to start in 18 minutes ←

07:42:38 <Steven_> rrsagent, make log public

Steven Pemberton: rrsagent, make log public ←

07:43:13 <Steven> Meeting: XHTML2 WG Virtual FtF, Day 2

07:43:16 <Steven> Chair: Roland

07:43:50 <Steven> Agenda: 04http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2008-06-FtF-Agenda01

07:44:03 <Steven> 04rrsagent, make minutes

Steven Pemberton: 04rrsagent, make minutes ←

07:44:40 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes

Steven Pemberton: rrsagent, make minutes ←

07:44:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/18-xhtml-minutes.html Steven

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/18-xhtml-minutes.html Steven ←

07:48:18 <Steven> mu irc UA copies colours with cut and paste, and they end up as escape sequences in the log which rrsagent doesn't recognise

Steven Pemberton: my irc UA copies colours with cut and paste, and they end up as escape sequences in the log which rrsagent doesn't recognise ←

07:48:23 <Steven> s/mu/my/

07:49:03 <oedipus> drag... can you disable that?

Gregory Rosmaita: drag... can you disable that? ←

07:51:20 <Steven> Not as far as I know

Steven Pemberton: Not as far as I know ←

07:52:14 <oedipus> no substitute for good old command line *nix irc

Gregory Rosmaita: no substitute for good old command line *nix irc ←

07:54:02 <Steven> yep, I guess

Steven Pemberton: yep, I guess ←

07:58:10 <oedipus> emailed Access Module comment requests to UbiWeb, UAAG and SVG

Gregory Rosmaita: emailed Access Module comment requests to UbiWeb, UAAG and SVG ←

07:59:03 <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()4:00AM has now started

Zakim IRC Bot: IA_XHTML2()4:00AM has now started ←

07:59:10 <Zakim> +Roland

Zakim IRC Bot: +Roland ←

08:00:13 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617

Steven Pemberton: zakim, dial steven-617 ←

08:00:13 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven; the call is being made ←

08:00:18 <Zakim> +Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: +Steven ←

08:00:46 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita

Zakim IRC Bot: +Gregory_Rosmaita ←

08:03:07 <Zakim> +??P2

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P2 ←

08:03:39 <yamx> zakim, ??P2 is yamx

Scribe problem: the name 'yamx' does not match any of the 22 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alessio Cartocci Alexander Graf Christina Bottomley Elias Torres Gerrie Shults Gregory Rosmaita John Kugelman Luca Mascaro Mark Birbeck Masataka Yakura Michael Rawling Richard Schwerdtfeger Roland Merrick Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer Shane McCarron Steven Pemberton Susan Borgrink Tina Holmboe Toshihiko Yamakami Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown yamx: zakim, ??P2 is yamx ←

08:03:39 <Zakim> +yamx; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +yamx; got it ←

08:04:24 <yamx> It seems like the microphone with my handsets have some problems. I have to take the handset manually to release hand-free mode to speak...

Unknown yamx: It seems like the microphone with my handsets have some problems. I have to take the handset manually to release hand-free mode to speak... ←

08:09:43 <ShaneM> omw

(No events recorded for 5 minutes)

Shane McCarron: omw ←

08:12:16 <oedipus> IFRAME Accessibility Inquiry: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2008Jun/0061.html

Gregory Rosmaita: IFRAME Accessibility Inquiry: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2008Jun/0061.html ←

08:14:02 <Zakim> +ShaneM

Zakim IRC Bot: +ShaneM ←

08:14:11 <Steven> zakim, who is here?

Steven Pemberton: zakim, who is here? ←

08:14:11 <Zakim> On the phone I see Roland, Steven, Gregory_Rosmaita, yamx, ShaneM

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Roland, Steven, Gregory_Rosmaita, yamx, ShaneM ←

08:14:12 <Zakim> On IRC I see yamx, Zakim, RRSAgent, oedipus, Roland, ShaneM, Lachy, Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see yamx, Zakim, RRSAgent, oedipus, Roland, ShaneM, Lachy, Steven ←

08:14:58 <oedipus> poetic justice?

Gregory Rosmaita: poetic justice? ←

08:15:44 <Steven> Scribe?

Steven Pemberton: Scribe? ←

08:16:03 <oedipus> scribeNick: oedipus

(Scribe set to Gregory Rosmaita)

08:16:17 <oedipus> RM: review of yesterday; new review of CURIE received today

Roland Merrick: review of yesterday; new review of CURIE received today ←

08:16:40 <oedipus> TOPIC: CURIEs

1. CURIEs

08:17:31 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2008AprJun/0048.html

Steven Pemberton: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2008AprJun/0048.html ←

08:17:39 <oedipus> RM: model response on that submitted on behalf of XForms?

Roland Merrick: model response on that submitted on behalf of XForms? ←

08:17:43 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2008AprJun/0049.html

Steven Pemberton: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2008AprJun/0049.html ←

08:18:22 <oedipus> RM: personal comment from leigh: "We will clear up the wording to help reduce any potential confusion. We

Roland Merrick: personal comment from leigh: "We will clear up the wording to help reduce any potential confusion. We ←

08:18:22 <oedipus> will also clarify that host languages are only required to use XMLNS for

will also clarify that host languages are only required to use XMLNS for ←

08:18:22 <oedipus> prefix definition if the language supports XML Namespaces. Thanks!

prefix definition if the language supports XML Namespaces. Thanks! ←

08:18:22 <oedipus> "

" ←

08:19:29 <oedipus> SM: saw new comments last night; no DTD because the DTD is in M12n -

Shane McCarron: saw new comments last night; no DTD because the DTD is in M12n - ←

08:19:53 <oedipus> RM: we make it clear that there is a separate pointer to one or the other

Roland Merrick: we make it clear that there is a separate pointer to one or the other ←

08:20:15 <oedipus> RM: put pointer to say definitive definition is pointed to and provide pointer

Roland Merrick: put pointer to say definitive definition is pointed to and provide pointer ←

08:20:36 <oedipus> RM: defined in one place - need to reference elsewhere

Roland Merrick: defined in one place - need to reference elsewhere ←

08:20:40 <oedipus> SM: ok

Shane McCarron: ok ←

08:21:11 <oedipus> SM: comment continues - confused as to why normative - perhaps whole section should be informative

Shane McCarron: comment continues - confused as to why normative - perhaps whole section should be informative ←

08:21:31 <oedipus> RM: normative schema can be found here and the normative DTD can be found here, but section not normative itself

Roland Merrick: normative schema can be found here and the normative DTD can be found here, but section not normative itself ←

08:21:46 <oedipus> SP: normative bit is syntax - DTDs and schemas just informative

Steven Pemberton: normative bit is syntax - DTDs and schemas just informative ←

08:21:50 <oedipus> RM: mixture in section

Roland Merrick: mixture in section ←

08:22:04 <oedipus> SP: either make DTD and schemas normative both or informative both

Steven Pemberton: either make DTD and schemas normative both or informative both ←

08:22:15 <oedipus> RM: normative reference in M12n

Roland Merrick: normative reference in M12n ←

08:22:25 <oedipus> SM: and point to it from informative section

Shane McCarron: and point to it from informative section ←

08:22:46 <oedipus> SM: in the m12n implementation, but is not in modularization itself

Shane McCarron: in the m12n implementation, but is not in modularization itself ←

08:23:00 <oedipus> SM: didn't went m12n have dependency on CURIEs

Shane McCarron: didn't went m12n have dependency on CURIEs ←

08:23:37 <oedipus> SP: think good not to link to m12n - people should be able to use CURIEs regardless of implementation method

Steven Pemberton: think good not to link to m12n - people should be able to use CURIEs regardless of implementation method ←

08:23:48 <oedipus> SP: DTD and schema informative is ok

Steven Pemberton: DTD and schema informative is ok ←

08:23:56 <oedipus> SM: don't mind relaxNG thing

Shane McCarron: don't mind relaxNG thing ←

08:24:21 <oedipus> RM: more general point on what to do with RelaxNG for future - syntax for constraint, not type definitions

Roland Merrick: more general point on what to do with RelaxNG for future - syntax for constraint, not type definitions ←

08:24:42 <oedipus> SP: Relax uses schema datatypes to find datatypes - used for program structure

Steven Pemberton: Relax uses schema datatypes to find datatypes - used for program structure ←

08:25:03 <oedipus> RM: avoid RelaxNG now

Roland Merrick: avoid RelaxNG now ←

08:25:21 <oedipus> SP: XHTML2 spec has RelxNG - future will include, but too late to add now

Steven Pemberton: XHTML2 spec has RelxNG - future will include, but too late to add now ←

08:25:43 <oedipus> RM: informative definition of RelaxNG might enhance readability - very editorial, not real request for RelaxNG

Roland Merrick: informative definition of RelaxNG might enhance readability - very editorial, not real request for RelaxNG ←

08:26:03 <oedipus> SM: intend to do work on RelaxNG in future, but want to address in cohesive fashion in very near future

Shane McCarron: intend to do work on RelaxNG in future, but want to address in cohesive fashion in very near future ←

08:26:28 <oedipus> SM: should i redirect comment into tracking system so is logged as LC comment

Shane McCarron: should i redirect comment into tracking system so is logged as LC comment ←

08:26:32 <oedipus> RM & SP: yes

RM & SP: yes ←

08:27:54 <oedipus> TOPIC: XHTML Mime Type

2. XHTML Mime Type

08:28:14 <oedipus> RM: draft available; email about new tool from olivier

Roland Merrick: draft available; email about new tool from olivier ←

08:28:26 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtmlmime-20080423/

Steven Pemberton: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtmlmime-20080423/ ←

08:28:38 <oedipus> SM: how to approach

Shane McCarron: how to approach ←

08:28:44 <oedipus> RM: work our way through document

Roland Merrick: work our way through document ←

08:29:19 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2008-06-FtF-Agenda

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2008-06-FtF-Agenda ←

08:29:21 <Roland> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtmlmime-20080423/

Roland Merrick: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtmlmime-20080423/ ←

08:30:40 <oedipus> SM: took old one, put in pub system; made least number of changes possible; added appendix and that's where things stand

Shane McCarron: took old one, put in pub system; made least number of changes possible; added appendix and that's where things stand ←

08:30:53 <oedipus> SM: diff marked version from previous

Shane McCarron: diff marked version from previous ←

08:30:53 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtmlmime-20080423/xhtmlmime-diff.html

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtmlmime-20080423/xhtmlmime-diff.html ←

08:31:01 <oedipus> SM: will help other people

Shane McCarron: will help other people ←

08:31:13 <oedipus> SM: should approach as new document today

Shane McCarron: should approach as new document today ←

08:31:23 <oedipus> RM: start at introduction and work our way forwards

Roland Merrick: start at introduction and work our way forwards ←

08:31:36 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtmlmime-20080423/#intro

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtmlmime-20080423/#intro ←

08:32:47 <oedipus> SP: see part of our implementation strategy for XHTML2 going via script route; scripts that implement XHTML2 part and runs down tree making necessary changes so works within existing HTML browsers

Steven Pemberton: see part of our implementation strategy for XHTML2 going via script route; scripts that implement XHTML2 part and runs down tree making necessary changes so works within existing HTML browsers ←

08:33:04 <oedipus> SP: in that case, many UAs will have to receive as text/html just to serve, so...

Steven Pemberton: in that case, many UAs will have to receive as text/html just to serve, so... ←

08:33:23 <oedipus> SP: when we say "use of text/html should be limited to HTML-compatible..." -- wonder if that is too strong

Steven Pemberton: when we say "use of text/html should be limited to HTML-compatible..." -- wonder if that is too strong ←

08:34:22 <oedipus> SP: media type is being used to deliver stuff to UA just to get it in there, then - due to scripting - deliver XForms - UA thinks is HTML, and then script does what is necessary to compile into HTML

Steven Pemberton: media type is being used to deliver stuff to UA just to get it in there, then - due to scripting - deliver XForms - UA thinks is HTML, and then script does what is necessary to compile into HTML ←

08:34:46 <oedipus> SP: want to deliver documents to UAs as text/html, but want to be very careful about definition of HTML-compatible

Steven Pemberton: want to deliver documents to UAs as text/html, but want to be very careful about definition of HTML-compatible ←

08:35:02 <oedipus> RM: distinction not between documents, but capacities of browser;

Roland Merrick: distinction not between documents, but capacities of browser; ←

08:35:13 <oedipus> SM: browsers that explicitly accept that mime-type

Shane McCarron: browsers that explicitly accept that mime-type ←

08:35:41 <oedipus> RM: focus on document negotiating with browser and serving most appropropriate - if wants text/html, give it

Roland Merrick: focus on document negotiating with browser and serving most appropropriate - if wants text/html, give it ←

08:36:00 <oedipus> RM: this is XML and that is what we are

Roland Merrick: this is XML and that is what we are ←

08:36:10 <oedipus> SM: disconnect by the way Roland & Steven

Shane McCarron: disconnect by the way Roland & Steven ←

08:36:40 <oedipus> RM: UA only meant to parse well formed XML, should deliver xml mime-type - you take XML, we have XML, here it is

Roland Merrick: UA only meant to parse well formed XML, should deliver xml mime-type - you take XML, we have XML, here it is ←

08:37:02 <oedipus> SM: if FF claims to accept XML and XHTML, why serve text/html

Shane McCarron: if FF claims to accept XML and XHTML, why serve text/html ←

08:37:17 <oedipus> SP: no if UA accepts application/xml give it that

Steven Pemberton: no if UA accepts application/xml give it that ←

08:37:33 <oedipus> SP: hiccup is use of text/html should be limited to HTML-compatible family documents

Steven Pemberton: hiccup is use of text/html should be limited to HTML-compatible family documents ←

08:37:47 <oedipus> SM: right -- it does say that

Shane McCarron: right -- it does say that ←

08:37:49 <ShaneM> the use of 'text/html' SHOULD be limited to HTML-compatible XHTML Family documents intended for delivery to user agents that do not explcitly accept 'application/xhtml+xml'.

Shane McCarron: the use of 'text/html' SHOULD be limited to HTML-compatible XHTML Family documents intended for delivery to user agents that do not explcitly accept 'application/xhtml+xml'. ←

08:37:51 <Steven> "the use of 'text/html' SHOULD be limited to HTML-compatible XHTML Family documents"

Steven Pemberton: "the use of 'text/html' SHOULD be limited to HTML-compatible XHTML Family documents" ←

08:38:17 <oedipus> SM: a SHOULD not a MUST

Shane McCarron: a SHOULD not a MUST ←

08:38:53 <oedipus> SM: thought intent was not to irritate constituencies using XHTML1 - transitional thing; has to be HTML-compatible, or target UA may not accept it

Shane McCarron: thought intent was not to irritate constituencies using XHTML1 - transitional thing; has to be HTML-compatible, or target UA may not accept it ←

08:39:03 <oedipus> SP: depends on our definition of HTML-compatible

Steven Pemberton: depends on our definition of HTML-compatible ←

08:39:22 <oedipus> SM: try to explain in Appendix C of XHTML 1.0 - Appendix A of this document

Shane McCarron: try to explain in Appendix C of XHTML 1.0 - Appendix A of this document ←

08:39:46 <oedipus> RM: if UA asks for page and prefers XML, serve as XML; if UA doesn't support XML only HTML, then serve text/html

Roland Merrick: if UA asks for page and prefers XML, serve as XML; if UA doesn't support XML only HTML, then serve text/html ←

08:39:59 <oedipus> RM: document agnostic - can do either thing and respond based on what UA wants

Roland Merrick: document agnostic - can do either thing and respond based on what UA wants ←

08:40:16 <oedipus> RM: not document constraint per se, but browser constraint, which we handle

Roland Merrick: not document constraint per se, but browser constraint, which we handle ←

08:40:52 <oedipus> SP: explicitly mention cases where people doing stuff - implementing XML based languages via scripting; in that case, acceptable to deliver as text/html just to get to UA

Steven Pemberton: explicitly mention cases where people doing stuff - implementing XML based languages via scripting; in that case, acceptable to deliver as text/html just to get to UA ←

08:41:09 <oedipus> RM: not sure right justification - doc should state what should be done, not justify

Roland Merrick: not sure right justification - doc should state what should be done, not justify ←

08:41:33 <oedipus> SP: don't want to get into current situation where people claim not XML because being delivered via text/html

Steven Pemberton: don't want to get into current situation where people claim not XML because being delivered via text/html ←

08:41:40 <oedipus> SP: in past didn't care about media types

Steven Pemberton: in past didn't care about media types ←

08:41:56 <oedipus> RM: this is where should be strong - not about media types, but whether passes series of constraints

Roland Merrick: this is where should be strong - not about media types, but whether passes series of constraints ←

08:42:11 <oedipus> RM: mandating particular doctypes wrong approach

Roland Merrick: mandating particular doctypes wrong approach ←

08:42:22 <oedipus> SP: doctype only current way to declare restraints

Steven Pemberton: doctype only current way to declare restraints ←

08:42:38 <oedipus> RM: can make assertion against a document through validation -

Roland Merrick: can make assertion against a document through validation - ←

08:43:07 <oedipus> RM: can write a doc where all markup valid against mobile profile, xhtml10 and xhtml11 - why have to pick one

Roland Merrick: can write a doc where all markup valid against mobile profile, xhtml10 and xhtml11 - why have to pick one ←

08:43:35 <oedipus> SM: possible to craft doc that can validate against any of our markup family, but this WG has said "have to have doc type"

Shane McCarron: possible to craft doc that can validate against any of our markup family, but this WG has said "have to have doc type" ←

08:44:18 <oedipus> SP: if want to declare doc as mobile OK, document has to have basic DTD in front - if someone else declares as foo, need another DTD even if document satisfies both standards, can't validate as both

Steven Pemberton: if want to declare doc as mobile OK, document has to have basic DTD in front - if someone else declares as foo, need another DTD even if document satisfies both standards, can't validate as both ←

08:44:41 <oedipus> SP: rule about doctype to use constrains authors from authoring once and declaring valid for a number of profiles

Steven Pemberton: rule about doctype to use constrains authors from authoring once and declaring valid for a number of profiles ←

08:44:44 <oedipus> RM: correct

Roland Merrick: correct ←

08:45:02 <oedipus> SM: not clear how relevant to document or what we can do

Shane McCarron: not clear how relevant to document or what we can do ←

08:45:44 <oedipus> RM: perfectly acceptable to deliver as XHTML1.0, XHTML1.1, Mobile Profile, HTML5 -- pipe stream can then use text/html or application/xml

Roland Merrick: perfectly acceptable to deliver as XHTML1.0, XHTML1.1, Mobile Profile, HTML5 -- pipe stream can then use text/html or application/xml ←

08:45:58 <oedipus> RM: assertion part of document not metadata

Roland Merrick: assertion part of document not metadata ←

08:46:46 <oedipus> RM: is byte stream acceptable as text/html in HTML4x browser; same byte stream delivered to valid mobile device, then deliver as application/xml; not implicit to byte stream

Roland Merrick: is byte stream acceptable as text/html in HTML4x browser; same byte stream delivered to valid mobile device, then deliver as application/xml; not implicit to byte stream ←

08:47:09 <oedipus> SM: media type tells the consumer how to evaluate document - what internal engine to use

Shane McCarron: media type tells the consumer how to evaluate document - what internal engine to use ←

08:47:20 <oedipus> RM: that's not intrinsic to document, but how bind 2 together

Roland Merrick: that's not intrinsic to document, but how bind 2 together ←

08:47:57 <oedipus> RM: can take same byte stream into FF and whether served as text/html or application/xml works

Roland Merrick: can take same byte stream into FF and whether served as text/html or application/xml works ←

08:48:03 <oedipus> SM: side-effects: changes the DOM

Shane McCarron: side-effects: changes the DOM ←

08:48:15 <oedipus> SM: is there anything in doc that is in conflict with your points

Shane McCarron: is there anything in doc that is in conflict with your points ←

08:48:51 <oedipus> RM: turn around question - how respond to request from UA, not something intrinsic in document - document can legitimately be multiple form (valid in more than one langauge)

Roland Merrick: turn around question - how respond to request from UA, not something intrinsic in document - document can legitimately be multiple form (valid in more than one langauge) ←

08:49:07 <oedipus> SM: hope that that behavior is encouraged by this doc

Shane McCarron: hope that that behavior is encouraged by this doc ←

08:49:31 <oedipus> RM: document-centric approach (what to push to browser) rather than responding to UA requests - push-pull or pull-push

Roland Merrick: document-centric approach (what to push to browser) rather than responding to UA requests - push-pull or pull-push ←

08:49:49 <oedipus> RM: what UA asks for or is capable of understanding determines how we act

Roland Merrick: what UA asks for or is capable of understanding determines how we act ←

08:49:57 <oedipus> SM: first paragraph of abstract says that

Shane McCarron: first paragraph of abstract says that ←

08:50:46 <oedipus> RM: if browser asks for application/xml send as that - serve what UA prefers; negotiation in pike

Roland Merrick: if browser asks for application/xml send as that - serve what UA prefers; negotiation in pike ←

08:51:26 <oedipus> RM: XML higher fidelity, but if only understands one or other, then that is the constraint, not the document

Roland Merrick: XML higher fidelity, but if only understands one or other, then that is the constraint, not the document ←

08:51:50 <oedipus> RM: response from negotiation with UA; this is what i can accept, give me the highest fidelity

Roland Merrick: response from negotiation with UA; this is what i can accept, give me the highest fidelity ←

08:52:13 <oedipus> TH: without a DOCTYPE many tools beome impossible to write, such as accessibility checkers

Tina Holmboe: without a DOCTYPE many tools beome impossible to write, such as accessibility checkers ←

08:52:22 <Tina> Without a DOCTYPE many tools becomes impossible to write such that they can deliver trustworthy results. Accessibility checkers is one such example.

Tina Holmboe: Without a DOCTYPE many tools becomes impossible to write such that they can deliver trustworthy results. Accessibility checkers is one such example. ←

08:52:30 <ShaneM> +1 to Tina's comment

Shane McCarron: +1 to Tina's comment ←

08:53:16 <oedipus> Yam: as mobile UA manufacturer, don't want to be bound to any mime-type - process what we can; interested in using mime-type to advertise browser capability; media type specification or note?

Toshihiko Yamakami: as mobile UA manufacturer, don't want to be bound to any mime-type - process what we can; interested in using mime-type to advertise browser capability; media type specification or note? ←

08:54:23 <Tina> Wouldn't it be far more useful to continue the work on CC/PP instead of using the mime-type, since the mime-type, looked at pragmatically, doesn't really say anything about capability?

Tina Holmboe: Wouldn't it be far more useful to continue the work on CC/PP instead of using the mime-type, since the mime-type, looked at pragmatically, doesn't really say anything about capability? ←

08:55:02 <oedipus> Yam: if note, emphasize 1.0 or 1.1 - from mobile UA viewpoint, this module will clarify how to handle XHTML Basic as well as other XHTML flavors; 2 editorial points: status of document (have to make sure consistent); second in 3.5 say HTML, should be HTML4 other places HTML-compatible; need to define HTML compatible or explicitly state HTML4-compatible

Toshihiko Yamakami: if note, emphasize 1.0 or 1.1 - from mobile UA viewpoint, this module will clarify how to handle XHTML Basic as well as other XHTML flavors; 2 editorial points: status of document (have to make sure consistent); second in 3.5 say HTML, should be HTML4 other places HTML-compatible; need to define HTML compatible or explicitly state HTML4-compatible ←

08:55:10 <oedipus> tina, yes to CC/PP

tina, yes to CC/PP ←

08:55:10 <Roland> My comment was not that DOCTYPE should not be used but that a single document can conform to more than one DOCTYPE.

Roland Merrick: My comment was not that DOCTYPE should not be used but that a single document can conform to more than one DOCTYPE. ←

08:55:23 <oedipus> Yam: profile

Toshihiko Yamakami: profile ←

08:55:36 <oedipus> SM: need strategy for that - came up on RDFa discussion this week

Shane McCarron: need strategy for that - came up on RDFa discussion this week ←

08:56:35 <oedipus> Yam: mimetype profile should require specification of DTD -- can clarify have to use profile + foo; my assumption is have to use profile parameter and in doing so have to specify DTD

Toshihiko Yamakami: mimetype profile should require specification of DTD -- can clarify have to use profile + foo; my assumption is have to use profile parameter and in doing so have to specify DTD ←

08:57:21 <oedipus> SM: haven't developed concrete strategy there; markB has other ideas; had other suggestions; reasonable to use mimetype but need to do in rec track document or m12n, otherwise, not normative

Shane McCarron: haven't developed concrete strategy there; markB has other ideas; had other suggestions; reasonable to use mimetype but need to do in rec track document or m12n, otherwise, not normative ←

08:57:30 <oedipus> Yam: happy with informative

Toshihiko Yamakami: happy with informative ←

08:58:07 <oedipus> SM: issue with HTML-compatible and HTML4 - HTML4-compatible would explicitly exclude HTML5 for better or worse

Shane McCarron: issue with HTML-compatible and HTML4 - HTML4-compatible would explicitly exclude HTML5 for better or worse ←

08:58:22 <oedipus> GJR +1 to HTML4-compatible

GJR +1 to HTML4-compatible ←

08:58:30 <oedipus> SP: too early to say HTML5

Steven Pemberton: too early to say HTML5 ←

08:58:43 <oedipus> Yam: don't know anything about HTML5 compatibility

Toshihiko Yamakami: don't know anything about HTML5 compatibility ←

08:58:47 <oedipus> SM: absolutely right

Shane McCarron: absolutely right ←

08:58:57 <oedipus> SM: HTML4-compatible ok?

Shane McCarron: HTML4-compatible ok? ←

08:58:58 <oedipus> GJR: yes

Gregory Rosmaita: yes ←

08:59:03 <oedipus> Yam: yes

Toshihiko Yamakami: yes ←

09:00:06 <Zakim> +??P8

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P8 ←

09:00:10 <oedipus> RESOLVED: in mimetype document use HTML4-compatible and HTML4-foo wherever appears in document to remove confusion

RESOLVED: in mimetype document use HTML4-compatible and HTML4-foo wherever appears in document to remove confusion ←

09:00:23 <oedipus> zakim, ??P8 is Alessio

zakim, ??P8 is Alessio ←

09:00:23 <Zakim> +Alessio; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Alessio; got it ←

09:00:23 <Steven> zakim, ??P8 is Alessio

Steven Pemberton: zakim, ??P8 is Alessio ←

09:00:24 <Zakim> I already had ??P8 as Alessio, Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: I already had ??P8 as Alessio, Steven ←

09:00:56 <oedipus> RM: what should abstract say that currently doesn't?

Roland Merrick: what should abstract say that currently doesn't? ←

09:01:37 <oedipus> RM: how to make as easy as possible for authors to develop content so can be delivered in multiple mimetypes

Roland Merrick: how to make as easy as possible for authors to develop content so can be delivered in multiple mimetypes ←

09:02:01 <oedipus> SM: something about title?

Shane McCarron: something about title? ←

09:02:26 <oedipus> RM: title itself doesn't get to heart of what trying to do - guide for authors on how to develop content so can be served as multiple media types

Roland Merrick: title itself doesn't get to heart of what trying to do - guide for authors on how to develop content so can be served as multiple media types ←

09:02:36 <oedipus> SM: understand, but title already well-know

Shane McCarron: understand, but title already well-know ←

09:03:07 <oedipus> RM: title - XML Media Type sub-title: Serving XML in an HTML World

Roland Merrick: title - XML Media Type sub-title: Serving XML in an HTML World ←

09:03:19 <oedipus> SP: Serving XHTML in Legacy UAs?

Steven Pemberton: Serving XHTML in Legacy UAs? ←

09:03:28 <oedipus> RM: Serving XHTML to Multiple User Agents

Roland Merrick: Serving XHTML to Multiple User Agents ←

09:04:14 <ShaneM> Delivering XHTML to XHTML and HTML User Agents

Shane McCarron: Delivering XHTML to XHTML and HTML User Agents ←

09:04:16 <oedipus> Serving the Most Appropriate Content to Multiple User Agents from a Single Document Source

Serving the Most Appropriate Content to Multiple User Agents from a Single Document Source ←

09:04:24 <oedipus> RM: who is expected to read?

Roland Merrick: who is expected to read? ←

09:04:29 <oedipus> SP: olivier

Steven Pemberton: olivier ←

09:04:51 <Steven> That was intended as a joke, for the record

Steven Pemberton: That was intended as a joke, for the record ←

09:05:08 <oedipus> SM: consumers of document: all people who hang out on freenode #web who say don't use XHTML because doesn't work

Shane McCarron: consumers of document: all people who hang out on freenode #web who say don't use XHTML because doesn't work ←

09:05:40 <oedipus> SM: if can get them to understand ok to serve XHTML to current UAs, then that is a huge win

Shane McCarron: if can get them to understand ok to serve XHTML to current UAs, then that is a huge win ←

09:06:37 <oedipus> Yam: reason document more implemented on mobile browser is no way to specify XHTML Basic or other/multiple host language support; W3C note will gratify my constituency

Toshihiko Yamakami: reason document more implemented on mobile browser is no way to specify XHTML Basic or other/multiple host language support; W3C note will gratify my constituency ←

09:07:43 <Tina> I find that hard to agree to. Most authors appear not to know how to use XHTML. It wouldn't do the "XHTML Case" any good to have an even larger amount of invalid documents out there that people believe are "just fine" 'cause they render as HTML.

Tina Holmboe: I find that hard to agree to. Most authors appear not to know how to use XHTML. It wouldn't do the "XHTML Case" any good to have an even larger amount of invalid documents out there that people believe are "just fine" 'cause they render as HTML. ←

09:07:56 <oedipus> RM: that's what we were trying to discuss earlier - what UA is capable or ready to accept - i accept A, B, C, D, and E so give me the best one you have

Roland Merrick: that's what we were trying to discuss earlier - what UA is capable or ready to accept - i accept A, B, C, D, and E so give me the best one you have ←

09:08:33 <oedipus> RM: capability of browser and then if document fits multiple profiles; basic 1 and basic 1.1 - UA conforms to basic 1.0, takes that

Roland Merrick: capability of browser and then if document fits multiple profiles; basic 1 and basic 1.1 - UA conforms to basic 1.0, takes that ←

09:09:30 <oedipus> SM: logical conclusion means need to specify somewhere a syntax for the accept headers profile parameter -- markB has proposal; UA has to say in precise and concise way all of the things it accepts

Shane McCarron: logical conclusion means need to specify somewhere a syntax for the accept headers profile parameter -- markB has proposal; UA has to say in precise and concise way all of the things it accepts ←

09:10:00 <oedipus> SM: tokens specified for implements in XML Events 2 - could be that sort of mechanism

Shane McCarron: tokens specified for implements in XML Events 2 - could be that sort of mechanism ←

09:10:15 <oedipus> Yam: no other document specifies that

Toshihiko Yamakami: no other document specifies that ←

09:10:31 <oedipus> SM: agree - might push into update of RFC if part of media spec

Shane McCarron: agree - might push into update of RFC if part of media spec ←

09:10:48 <oedipus> RM: should consult with UbiWeb and CC/PP

Roland Merrick: should consult with UbiWeb and CC/PP ←

09:10:51 <Zakim> +Tina

Zakim IRC Bot: +Tina ←

09:11:50 <oedipus> RM: break off as topic that needs attention - problem about UA advertising capabilities and preferences and serving the appropriate content

Roland Merrick: break off as topic that needs attention - problem about UA advertising capabilities and preferences and serving the appropriate content ←

09:12:03 <oedipus> SM: markB should be in on discussion

Shane McCarron: markB should be in on discussion ←

09:13:11 <oedipus> SM: how to make abstract get to point RM wants reword "documents intended for delivery to user agents that do not explcitly accept 'application/xhtml+xml'. 'application/xml' and 'text/xml' MAY also be used, but whenever appropriate, 'application/xhtml+xml' or 'text/html' SHOULD be used rather than those generic XML media types."

Shane McCarron: how to make abstract get to point RM wants reword "documents intended for delivery to user agents that do not explcitly accept 'application/xhtml+xml'. 'application/xml' and 'text/xml' MAY also be used, but whenever appropriate, 'application/xhtml+xml' or 'text/html' SHOULD be used rather than those generic XML media types." ←

09:13:42 <oedipus> RM: question of persepective - how to respond to UA's capabilities and preferences

Roland Merrick: question of persepective - how to respond to UA's capabilities and preferences ←

09:13:45 <ShaneM> XHTML Family documents intended for delivery to user agents that  do not explcitly state in their HTTP-Accept header that they

Shane McCarron: XHTML Family documents intended for delivery to user agents that do not explcitly state in their HTTP-Accept header that they ←

09:13:45 <ShaneM> accept 'application/xhtml+xml'

Shane McCarron: accept 'application/xhtml+xml' ←

09:14:04 <oedipus> SM: that what you mean, Roland?

Shane McCarron: that what you mean, Roland? ←

09:14:06 <oedipus> RM: yes

Roland Merrick: yes ←

09:15:15 <oedipus> Tina: problem with it is that everyone knows that an accept head is often misleading - tend to ignore accept headers and HTTP requests; not a road we should formally go down - should not ignore accept

Tina Holmboe: problem with it is that everyone knows that an accept head is often misleading - tend to ignore accept headers and HTTP requests; not a road we should formally go down - should not ignore accept ←

09:15:45 <oedipus> Tina: understand pragmatic reasons, but uneasy with exception for HTML-family document; should talk with HTTP people

Tina Holmboe: understand pragmatic reasons, but uneasy with exception for HTML-family document; should talk with HTTP people ←

09:15:54 <oedipus> SP: don't understand what you think we are ignoring

Steven Pemberton: don't understand what you think we are ignoring ←

09:16:17 <oedipus> Tina: UAs use accept header that says "i'll accpet everything no matter what" - then how to decide what to give it?

Tina Holmboe: UAs use accept header that says "i'll accpet everything no matter what" - then how to decide what to give it? ←

09:17:07 <oedipus> SP: accept header should give list of what can actually accept, but with a terminal star to cache ("Save As.." dialog is an example - not refused, but check accept headers to check if can natively deal with it

Steven Pemberton: accept header should give list of what can actually accept, but with a terminal star to cache ("Save As.." dialog is an example - not refused, but check accept headers to check if can natively deal with it ←

09:17:38 <oedipus> SM: according to HTTP spec, permisible to accept *.* -- we're telling people to ignore that

Shane McCarron: according to HTTP spec, permisible to accept *.* -- we're telling people to ignore that ←

09:18:04 <oedipus> Tina: formal point of view would mean we are telling people to ignore part of HTTP spec

Tina Holmboe: formal point of view would mean we are telling people to ignore part of HTTP spec ←

09:18:12 <oedipus> SP: not saying that

Steven Pemberton: not saying that ←

09:18:16 <oedipus> SM: think we are, actually

Shane McCarron: think we are, actually ←

09:18:53 <oedipus> SM: term "explicitly state" - unless UA explicitly says it accepts application/xhtml+xml don't give it xhtml - that's inconsistent with spirit of HTTP spec

Shane McCarron: term "explicitly state" - unless UA explicitly says it accepts application/xhtml+xml don't give it xhtml - that's inconsistent with spirit of HTTP spec ←

09:20:02 <oedipus> SP: by saying *.* how do you get xhtml documents in to browsers and parse them correctly; all UAs accept *.*, which means "don't exclude anything"

Steven Pemberton: by saying *.* how do you get xhtml documents in to browsers and parse them correctly; all UAs accept *.*, which means "don't exclude anything" ←

09:20:20 <oedipus> RM: these are things UA might say - if this is X do Y, if this is Q do W

Roland Merrick: these are things UA might say - if this is X do Y, if this is Q do W ←

09:20:31 <oedipus> Tina: need to check on *.* support in UAs

Tina Holmboe: need to check on *.* support in UAs ←

09:20:57 <oedipus> Tina: usual way of writing accept header parsers haven't come across many that accept anything

Tina Holmboe: usual way of writing accept header parsers haven't come across many that accept anything ←

09:21:20 <oedipus> Tina: need to investigate further - can we delay discussion so can dig into it a bit?

Tina Holmboe: need to investigate further - can we delay discussion so can dig into it a bit? ←

09:21:24 <Steven> Here Tina: http://pgl.yoyo.org/http/browser-headers.php

Steven Pemberton: Here Tina: http://pgl.yoyo.org/http/browser-headers.php ←

09:21:43 <Steven> Opera sends: Accept:     text/html, application/xml;q=0.9, application/xhtml+xml, image/png, image/jpeg, image/gif, image/x-xbitmap, */*;q=0.1

Steven Pemberton: Opera sends: Accept: text/html, application/xml;q=0.9, application/xhtml+xml, image/png, image/jpeg, image/gif, image/x-xbitmap, */*;q=0.1 ←

09:22:18 <oedipus> RM: peice that is missing; talk about things in abstract not covered in detail - detail goes into media type uses, but don't say what requests might come form UA; accept headers not mentioned in body, just in abstract

Roland Merrick: peice that is missing; talk about things in abstract not covered in detail - detail goes into media type uses, but don't say what requests might come form UA; accept headers not mentioned in body, just in abstract ←

09:22:31 <ShaneM> in our list of explicit rules.... how about if we say "if an Accept header only contains */*, documents SHOULD be sent using media type text/html if they are HTML4 compatible, or as application/xhtml+xml if they are not" or something.

Shane McCarron: in our list of explicit rules.... how about if we say "if an Accept header only contains */*, documents SHOULD be sent using media type text/html if they are HTML4 compatible, or as application/xhtml+xml if they are not" or something. ←

09:22:40 <Steven> Safari sends: Accept:     text/xml,application/xml,application/xhtml+xml,text/html;q=0.9,text/plain;q=0.8,image/png,*/*;q=0.5

Steven Pemberton: Safari sends: Accept: text/xml,application/xml,application/xhtml+xml,text/html;q=0.9,text/plain;q=0.8,image/png,*/*;q=0.5 ←

09:22:45 <oedipus> RM: in media type usage, should say "which is the most appropriate"

Roland Merrick: in media type usage, should say "which is the most appropriate" ←

09:23:01 <oedipus> TH: worth noting that ones tested so far send a Qvalue with *.*

Tina Holmboe: worth noting that ones tested so far send a Qvalue with *.* ←

09:23:19 <oedipus> TH: who set up yoyo.org?

Tina Holmboe: who set up yoyo.org? ←

09:23:47 <oedipus> yoyo: "Welcome to Yoyo Internet Services. We pride ourselves on consistency of service and quality of workmanship. Founded in 1996 by Matt Saunders and Neil Levine, Yoyo has gone from strength to strength despite its overwhelming vacuousity."

Scribe problem: the name 'yoyo' does not match any of the 22 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alessio Cartocci Alexander Graf Christina Bottomley Elias Torres Gerrie Shults Gregory Rosmaita John Kugelman Luca Mascaro Mark Birbeck Masataka Yakura Michael Rawling Richard Schwerdtfeger Roland Merrick Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer Shane McCarron Steven Pemberton Susan Borgrink Tina Holmboe Toshihiko Yamakami Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown yoyo: "Welcome to Yoyo Internet Services. We pride ourselves on consistency of service and quality of workmanship. Founded in 1996 by Matt Saunders and Neil Levine, Yoyo has gone from strength to strength despite its overwhelming vacuousity." ←

09:23:51 <Steven> Mozilla: Accept:       text/xml,application/xml,application/xhtml+xml,text/html;q=0.9,text/plain;q=0.8,image/png,*/*;q=0.5

Scribe problem: the name 'Mozilla' does not match any of the 22 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alessio Cartocci Alexander Graf Christina Bottomley Elias Torres Gerrie Shults Gregory Rosmaita John Kugelman Luca Mascaro Mark Birbeck Masataka Yakura Michael Rawling Richard Schwerdtfeger Roland Merrick Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer Shane McCarron Steven Pemberton Susan Borgrink Tina Holmboe Toshihiko Yamakami Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Mozilla: Accept: text/xml,application/xml,application/xhtml+xml,text/html;q=0.9,text/plain;q=0.8,image/png,*/*;q=0.5 [ Scribe Assist by Steven Pemberton ] ←

09:24:18 <oedipus> "Our mission is to consistently conjugate through dynamism, surrealism and semanticism in order to further our goals of hysterical servlet hypotenae. This autonomy cultivates our duplicitous mercenary valetism in the eclectic dot org arena."

"Our mission is to consistently conjugate through dynamism, surrealism and semanticism in order to further our goals of hysterical servlet hypotenae. This autonomy cultivates our duplicitous mercenary valetism in the eclectic dot org arena." ←

09:24:21 <Steven> Amaya: <nobr>

Scribe problem: the name 'Amaya' does not match any of the 22 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alessio Cartocci Alexander Graf Christina Bottomley Elias Torres Gerrie Shults Gregory Rosmaita John Kugelman Luca Mascaro Mark Birbeck Masataka Yakura Michael Rawling Richard Schwerdtfeger Roland Merrick Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer Shane McCarron Steven Pemberton Susan Borgrink Tina Holmboe Toshihiko Yamakami Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Amaya: > [ Scribe Assist by Steven Pemberton ] ←

09:24:21 <Steven> Accept:

Scribe problem: the name 'Accept' does not match any of the 22 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alessio Cartocci Alexander Graf Christina Bottomley Elias Torres Gerrie Shults Gregory Rosmaita John Kugelman Luca Mascaro Mark Birbeck Masataka Yakura Michael Rawling Richard Schwerdtfeger Roland Merrick Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer Shane McCarron Steven Pemberton Susan Borgrink Tina Holmboe Toshihiko Yamakami Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Accept: [ Scribe Assist by Steven Pemberton ] ←

09:24:21 <Steven> </nobr>

Steven Pemberton: ←

09:24:21 <Steven> */*;q=0.1,image/svg+xml,application/mathml+xml,application/xhtml+xml

Steven Pemberton: */*;q=0.1,image/svg+xml,application/mathml+xml,application/xhtml+xml ←

09:24:34 <oedipus> RM: accept header fallback for browser detect

Roland Merrick: accept header fallback for browser detect ←

09:24:38 <oedipus> Tina: not useable

Tina Holmboe: not useable ←

09:24:42 <oedipus> GJR: easily forged

Gregory Rosmaita: easily forged ←

09:25:08 <oedipus> Tina: need to point out that should do that

Tina Holmboe: need to point out that should do that ←

09:25:23 <ShaneM> Lets add a section for dealing with content negotiation via accept headers explicitly

Shane McCarron: Lets add a section for dealing with content negotiation via accept headers explicitly ←

09:25:24 <oedipus> RM: process accept headers to determine which of possible types to send - not addressed in detail

Roland Merrick: process accept headers to determine which of possible types to send - not addressed in detail ←

09:25:40 <oedipus> RM: give accept header and respond

Roland Merrick: give accept header and respond ←

09:26:45 <oedipus> Yam: OMA specifies that UA should advertise their supported mimetypes - send QValues because of *.* - at end smallest QValue

Toshihiko Yamakami: OMA specifies that UA should advertise their supported mimetypes - send QValues because of *.* - at end smallest QValue ←

09:26:53 <oedipus> RM: please send us a pointer

Roland Merrick: please send us a pointer ←

09:26:59 <Steven> Lynx sends:  Accept: text/html, text/plain, application/x-bittorrent,

Steven Pemberton: Lynx sends: Accept: text/html, text/plain, application/x-bittorrent, ←

09:26:59 <Steven>    application/x-troff-man, message/partial, message/external-body,

Steven Pemberton: application/x-troff-man, message/partial, message/external-body, ←

09:26:59 <Steven>    application/x-tar, application/x-gtar, application/msword,

Steven Pemberton: application/x-tar, application/x-gtar, application/msword, ←

09:26:59 <Steven>    text/richtext, text/enriched, application/ms-tnef, text/*,

Steven Pemberton: text/richtext, text/enriched, application/ms-tnef, text/*, ←

09:26:59 <Steven>    application/x-debian-package, audio/basic, */*;q=0.01

Steven Pemberton: application/x-debian-package, audio/basic, */*;q=0.01 ←

09:27:07 <oedipus> SM: i introduced that before OMA was OMA

Shane McCarron: i introduced that before OMA was OMA ←

09:27:26 <Tina> My local Lynx sends  text/html, text/plain, text/css, text/sgml, */*;q=0.01

Tina Holmboe: My local Lynx sends text/html, text/plain, text/css, text/sgml, */*;q=0.01 ←

09:28:03 <Steven> s/<nobr//

09:28:14 <Steven> s/<\/nobr>//

Steven Pemberton: s/<\/nobr>// (warning: replacement failed) ←

09:28:24 <oedipus> i often change my lynx settings in response to browser sniffing so i can get into certain sites

i often change my lynx settings in response to browser sniffing so i can get into certain sites ←

09:28:30 <oedipus> SP: fifteen minute break?

Steven Pemberton: fifteen minute break? ←

09:28:42 <oedipus> === 15 MINUTE BREAK ===

3. 15 MINUTE BREAK ===

09:28:49 <oedipus> rrsagent, draft minutes

rrsagent, draft minutes ←

09:28:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/18-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/18-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←

09:28:53 <Zakim> -ShaneM

Zakim IRC Bot: -ShaneM ←

09:28:55 <Zakim> -yamx

Zakim IRC Bot: -yamx ←

09:28:57 <Zakim> -Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: -Steven ←

09:28:57 <Zakim> -Tina

Zakim IRC Bot: -Tina ←

09:28:59 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita

Zakim IRC Bot: -Gregory_Rosmaita ←

09:29:00 <Zakim> -Alessio

Zakim IRC Bot: -Alessio ←

09:33:44 <oedipus> IFrame Accessibility Query: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2008Jun/0061.html

IFrame Accessibility Query: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2008Jun/0061.html ←

09:34:15 <oedipus> first response (S Schnabel of SAP): http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2008Jun/0062.html

first response (S Schnabel of SAP): http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2008Jun/0062.html ←

09:34:19 <oedipus> rrsagent, draft minutes

rrsagent, draft minutes ←

09:34:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/18-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/18-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←

09:47:35 <Steven> ok

(No events recorded for 13 minutes)

Steven Pemberton: ok ←

09:47:41 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617

Steven Pemberton: zakim, dial steven-617 ←

09:47:41 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven; the call is being made ←

09:47:42 <Zakim> +Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: +Steven ←

09:47:45 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita

Zakim IRC Bot: +Gregory_Rosmaita ←

09:47:55 <Zakim> +ShaneM

Zakim IRC Bot: +ShaneM ←

09:48:41 <Zakim> +??P8

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P8 ←

09:49:05 <yamx> I joined, but Zakim said nothing...

Unknown yamx: I joined, but Zakim said nothing... ←

09:49:06 <Zakim> +Tina

Zakim IRC Bot: +Tina ←

09:49:15 <yamx> Zakim, ??P8 is yamx

Unknown yamx: Zakim, ??P8 is yamx ←

09:49:15 <Zakim> +yamx; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +yamx; got it ←

09:49:37 <Zakim> +??P12

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P12 ←

09:49:44 <alessio> zakim, ??P12 is Alessio

Alessio Cartocci: zakim, ??P12 is Alessio ←

09:49:44 <Zakim> +Alessio; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Alessio; got it ←

09:50:00 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes

Steven Pemberton: rrsagent, make minutes ←

09:50:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/18-xhtml-minutes.html Steven

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/18-xhtml-minutes.html Steven ←

09:50:16 <ShaneM> FYI - updated CURIEs as per mail from Leigh and our discussion today.

Shane McCarron: FYI - updated CURIEs as per mail from Leigh and our discussion today. ←

09:51:09 <oedipus> RM: appendix on capacity guidelines for authors to deliver documents as valid XHTML or XML

Roland Merrick: appendix on capacity guidelines for authors to deliver documents as valid XHTML or XML ←

09:52:13 <oedipus> TH: reread HTTP spec - no provision in 14.4 for accept header - only send if explicitly stated, so withdraw my objection

Tina Holmboe: reread HTTP spec - no provision in 14.1 for accept header - only send if explicitly stated, so withdraw my objection ←

09:52:33 <Tina> Section 14.1 on the HTTP specification does not explicitly prohibit sending content to an UA which explicitly mention support for a MIME type

Tina Holmboe: Section 14.1 on the HTTP specification does not explicitly prohibit sending content to an UA which explicitly mention support for a MIME type ←

09:52:41 <ShaneM> http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec14.html#sec14.1

Shane McCarron: http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec14.html#sec14.1 ←

09:52:44 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec14.html#sec14.1

Steven Pemberton: http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec14.html#sec14.1 ←

09:52:56 <oedipus> s/provision in 14.4/provision in 14.1

09:54:03 <oedipus> TH: content negotioation is feasible again - since accept explicitly, like to add - please convert XHTML to HTML when delivering to HTML UA; problem is that those using XHTML are doing so poorly in belief that if use XHTML, UA will alert them if something wrong, and then send as text/html

Tina Holmboe: content negotioation is feasible again - since accept explicitly, like to add - please convert XHTML to HTML when delivering to HTML UA; problem is that those using XHTML are doing so poorly in belief that if use XHTML, UA will alert them if something wrong, and then send as text/html ←

09:54:26 <oedipus> RM: how should one write one's content to minimize those problems

Roland Merrick: how should one write one's content to minimize those problems ←

09:54:55 <oedipus> TH: do it on server before sending down the pipe; a lot of authors mis-using XHTML - no idea of concepts behind it

Tina Holmboe: do it on server before sending down the pipe; a lot of authors mis-using XHTML - no idea of concepts behind it ←

09:55:07 <oedipus> RM: a lot of content generated directly from databases as XML

Roland Merrick: a lot of content generated directly from databases as XML ←

09:55:19 <oedipus> RM: automatically emit XML, not XHTML

Roland Merrick: automatically emit XML, not XHTML ←

09:55:24 <oedipus> TH: technical limitation

Tina Holmboe: technical limitation ←

09:55:42 <oedipus> RM: many database servers only support XML, not XHTML --

Roland Merrick: many database servers only support XML, not XHTML -- ←

09:55:50 <oedipus> TH: can't send structured data to UA

Tina Holmboe: can't send structured data to UA ←

09:55:53 <oedipus> RM: you can

Roland Merrick: you can ←

09:55:59 <oedipus> TH: not if won't accept it

Tina Holmboe: not if won't accept it ←

09:56:21 <oedipus> TH: won't be structured data you think it is; if send XHTML to HTML user agent will not be interpreted as XHTML

Tina Holmboe: won't be structured data you think it is; if send XHTML to HTML user agent will not be interpreted as XHTML ←

09:57:00 <oedipus> TH: won't help people structure data - the "out" is that XHTML will be ok when served as HTML and if something was wrong, something would notify me

Tina Holmboe: won't help people structure data - the "out" is that XHTML will be ok when served as HTML and if something was wrong, something would notify me ←

09:57:22 <oedipus> SP: people so used to idea to check document source by loading into UA and seeing if looks "right"

Steven Pemberton: people so used to idea to check document source by loading into UA and seeing if looks "right" ←

09:57:40 <oedipus> TH: XHTML is an XML langauage - problem with not with code but delivery mechanism

Tina Holmboe: XHTML is an XML langauage - problem with not with code but delivery mechanism ←

09:58:14 <oedipus> SP: trying to say, if UA accepts XML media types, use that - fall back to HTML media type as a recourse of last resort

Steven Pemberton: trying to say, if UA accepts XML media types, use that - fall back to HTML media type as a recourse of last resort ←

09:58:22 <oedipus> TH: if fall back to HTML, please transform it

Tina Holmboe: if fall back to HTML, please transform it ←

09:58:28 <oedipus> SP: what to transform?

Steven Pemberton: what to transform? ←

09:58:41 <oedipus> SM: if develop according to compatibility guidelines, no need to transform

Shane McCarron: if develop according to compatibility guidelines, no need to transform ←

09:59:07 <oedipus> TH: trying to up the ante so get people to send valid XHTML to HTML user agents

Tina Holmboe: trying to up the ante so get people to send valid XHTML to HTML user agents ←

09:59:35 <oedipus> RM: document in general write as XHTML and if valid, XML-based browser will serve it

Roland Merrick: document in general write as XHTML and if valid, XML-based browser will serve it ←

10:00:14 <oedipus> SM: if not going to follow guidelines, then ensure that you transform your content before delilvery to HTML browser?

Shane McCarron: if not going to follow guidelines, then ensure that you transform your content before delilvery to HTML browser? ←

10:00:57 <oedipus> TH: please transform to language browser supports - can automatically transform XML

Tina Holmboe: please transform to language browser supports - can automatically transform XML ←

10:01:22 <alessio> old test page with server content negotiation: http://www.terrafertile.ch/w3/xhtml2/index.php

Alessio Cartocci: old test page with server content negotiation: http://www.terrafertile.ch/w3/xhtml2/index.php ←

10:01:24 <oedipus> SP: saying that, but not quite in those words; compatability guidelines - if serve as text/html, text should be in this form

Steven Pemberton: saying that, but not quite in those words; compatability guidelines - if serve as text/html, text should be in this form ←

10:01:50 <oedipus> RM: 2 alternatives: write to compatability GL to ensure XHTML can be parsed by HTML UA, if not, then need to transform into HTML

Roland Merrick: 2 alternatives: write to compatability GL to ensure XHTML can be parsed by HTML UA, if not, then need to transform into HTML ←

10:01:56 <oedipus> TH: want it to be VERY explicit

Tina Holmboe: want it to be VERY explicit ←

10:02:17 <oedipus> RM: can make explicit that one can write to GL or transform XHTML to HTML

Roland Merrick: can make explicit that one can write to GL or transform XHTML to HTML ←

10:02:38 <oedipus> TH: matter of finding good tech solution - which exist, so not the major problem

Tina Holmboe: matter of finding good tech solution - which exist, so not the major problem ←

10:02:43 <ShaneM> ACTION: Shane craft text to about transformation of XHTML to HTML.

ACTION: Shane craft text to about transformation of XHTML to HTML. ←

10:03:55 <oedipus> SP: why an Appendix A and then Appendix 2?

Steven Pemberton: why an Appendix A and then Appendix 2? ←

10:03:58 <oedipus> SM: odd...

Shane McCarron: odd... ←

10:04:23 <oedipus> SM: first one Processing Instructions should be A1

Shane McCarron: first one Processing Instructions should be a 1 ←

10:04:45 <oedipus> s/should be A1/should be a 1

10:05:17 <oedipus> SM: attempted to take old guidelines, port them here, and clarify style - want to recast as clear instructions as to what should and should not do

Shane McCarron: attempted to take old guidelines, port them here, and clarify style - want to recast as clear instructions as to what should and should not do ←

10:05:31 <oedipus> SM: original text still in draft for WG review

Shane McCarron: original text still in draft for WG review ←

10:06:04 <oedipus> SM: problem with way written previously, not clear what one supposed to do -- explained compatiblity risks and ways to work around them

Shane McCarron: problem with way written previously, not clear what one supposed to do -- explained compatiblity risks and ways to work around them ←

10:06:20 <oedipus> SM: don't use processing instructions PERIOD etc.

Shane McCarron: don't use processing instructions PERIOD etc. ←

10:06:36 <oedipus> SM: questions about approach or my take on problem?

Shane McCarron: questions about approach or my take on problem? ←

10:07:14 <oedipus> RM: need good example illustrating all principles - second, when state "do not" include a "do"

Roland Merrick: need good example illustrating all principles - second, when state "do not" include a "do" ←

10:07:34 <oedipus> RM: need to be crystral clear about what should do and not do

Roland Merrick: need to be crystral clear about what should do and not do ←

10:07:43 <oedipus> SM: not a corresponding "do" for first guideline

Shane McCarron: not a corresponding "do" for first guideline ←

10:08:00 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtmlmime-20080423/#compatGuidelines

Steven Pemberton: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtmlmime-20080423/#compatGuidelines ←

10:08:01 <oedipus> RM: general principle: not leaving to people to infer what one should do and not do

Roland Merrick: general principle: not leaving to people to infer what one should do and not do ←

10:08:08 <oedipus> SM: the "do" should come first

Shane McCarron: the "do" should come first ←

10:08:10 <oedipus> RM: yes

Roland Merrick: yes ←

10:08:19 <oedipus> SM: objections to GL1?

Shane McCarron: objections to GL1? ←

10:08:44 <oedipus> SP: no objection - use of word of "legacy" potentially distraction

Steven Pemberton: no objection - use of word of "legacy" potentially distraction ←

10:09:28 <oedipus> "Processing Instructions and the XML Declaration" should be A.1

"Processing Instructions and the XML Declaration" should be A.1 ←

10:09:57 <oedipus> RM: break out a warning - stronger than "remember, however..." - pull out and make clearer and stronger

Roland Merrick: break out a warning - stronger than "remember, however..." - pull out and make clearer and stronger ←

10:10:42 <oedipus> SM: next one "A.2. Empty Elements" - Roland, you requested i change this

Shane McCarron: next one "A.2. Empty Elements" - Roland, you requested i change this ←

10:10:48 <oedipus> RM: can't remember what i said

Roland Merrick: can't remember what i said ←

10:10:54 <oedipus> SM: combined A.2 and A.3

Shane McCarron: combined A.2 and A.3 ←

10:11:19 <oedipus> SP: A.2 about elements that can only be empty and A.3 about elements that normally aren't empty, but can be

Steven Pemberton: A.2 about elements that can only be empty and A.3 about elements that normally aren't empty, but can be ←

10:11:28 <oedipus> RM: have to know certain elements can only be empty

Roland Merrick: have to know certain elements can only be empty ←

10:11:44 <oedipus> RM: about a dozen

Roland Merrick: about a dozen ←

10:11:59 <oedipus> SM: will paste in "live" URL

Shane McCarron: will paste in "live" URL ←

10:12:24 <oedipus> FYI: A.3. Element Minimization and Empty Element Content

Scribe problem: the name 'FYI' does not match any of the 22 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alessio Cartocci Alexander Graf Christina Bottomley Elias Torres Gerrie Shults Gregory Rosmaita John Kugelman Luca Mascaro Mark Birbeck Masataka Yakura Michael Rawling Richard Schwerdtfeger Roland Merrick Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer Shane McCarron Steven Pemberton Susan Borgrink Tina Holmboe Toshihiko Yamakami Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown FYI: A.3. Element Minimization and Empty Element Content ←

10:12:47 <oedipus> Tina: no comments on A.1, and A.2 seems reasonable

Tina Holmboe: no comments on A.1, and A.2 seems reasonable ←

10:13:11 <oedipus> SP: interesting to note that A.2 in "normal" UAs isn't an issue

Steven Pemberton: interesting to note that A.2 in "normal" UAs isn't an issue ←

10:13:26 <oedipus> Tina: older agents need space

Tina Holmboe: older agents need space ←

10:13:42 <oedipus> SP: not advocating deletion, just noting a peculiarity

Steven Pemberton: not advocating deletion, just noting a improvement ←

10:13:51 <ShaneM> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtmlmime-20080618/

Shane McCarron: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtmlmime-20080618/ ←

10:14:01 <Steven> s/peculiarity/improvement/

10:14:14 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtmlmime-20080618/#compatGuidelines

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtmlmime-20080618/#compatGuidelines ←

10:14:48 <oedipus> SM: A.2 is now entitled: "Elements with no content" and combined with old A.3

Shane McCarron: A.2 is now entitled: "Elements with no content" and combined with old A.3 ←

10:14:57 <oedipus> RM: useful to have them there

Roland Merrick: useful to have them there ←

10:15:07 <oedipus> SM: will have to update when introduce new elements

Shane McCarron: will have to update when introduce new elements ←

10:15:31 <oedipus> TH: big question: compatability GL for HTML4 and less

Tina Holmboe: big question: compatability GL for HTML4 and less ←

10:15:39 <oedipus> TH: won't be added in HTML5

Tina Holmboe: won't be added in HTML5 ←

10:15:59 <oedipus> SM: if introduce new elements in XHTML2 have to revisit this document

Shane McCarron: if introduce new elements in XHTML2 have to revisit this document ←

10:16:22 <oedipus> SM: don't want to discuss today, but need to think about how to serve to "classic" browsers

Shane McCarron: don't want to discuss today, but need to think about how to serve to "classic" browsers ←

10:16:36 <oedipus> TH: probability of sending XHTML2 to legacy agents

Tina Holmboe: probability of sending XHTML2 to legacy agents ←

10:16:44 <oedipus> SP: people do that nowadays

Steven Pemberton: people do that nowadays ←

10:16:50 <oedipus> rrsagent, draft minutes

rrsagent, draft minutes ←

10:16:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/18-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/18-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←

10:17:11 <oedipus> SP: XForms scripts convert XForm into HTML, but delivered XForms

Steven Pemberton: XForms scripts convert XForm into HTML, but delivered XForms ←

10:17:16 <oedipus> TH: using javascript, i assume

Tina Holmboe: using javascript, i assume ←

10:17:18 <oedipus> SP: yes

Steven Pemberton: yes ←

10:17:28 <oedipus> TH: accessibility part of it - what to do with javascript

Tina Holmboe: accessibility part of it - what to do with javascript ←

10:17:53 <oedipus> RM: are people happy with A.2 "Elements with no content"

Roland Merrick: are people happy with A.2 "Elements with no content" ←

10:18:16 <oedipus> SP: personally prefered old form with separation between empty elements and those which can be empty

Steven Pemberton: personally prefered old form with separation between empty elements and those which can be empty ←

10:18:45 <oedipus> TH: A.3 more of a problem - should keep separate;

Tina Holmboe: A.3 more of a problem - should keep separate; ←

10:19:19 <oedipus> SP: liked fact that pointed out that XML allowed <br></br> doesn't mean anything

Steven Pemberton: liked fact that pointed out that XML allowed doesn't mean anything ←

10:19:27 <oedipus> RM: can go into rationale - doesn't change rules

Roland Merrick: can go into rationale - doesn't change rules ←

10:19:57 <oedipus> Original A.3 text: "Include a space before the trailing / and > of empty elements, e.g. <br />, <hr /> and <img src="karen.jpg" alt="Karen" />. Also, use the minimized tag syntax for empty elements, e.g. <br />, as the alternative syntax <br></br> allowed by XML gives uncertain results in many existing user agents."

Original A.3 text: "Include a space before the trailing / and > of empty elements, e.g. , <hr /> and <img src="karen.jpg" alt="Karen" />. Also, use the minimized tag syntax for empty elements, e.g. , as the alternative syntax allowed by XML gives uncertain results in many existing user agents." ←

10:20:13 <oedipus> TH: clearer we are, the better the results when authors write it

Tina Holmboe: clearer we are, the better the results when authors write it ←

10:20:43 <oedipus> RM: A.2 what should do is <br /> what should not do is <br></br>

Roland Merrick: A.2 what should do is what should not do is ←

10:21:05 <oedipus> SP: good example is script - if script src= have to have /script

Steven Pemberton: good example is script - if script src= have to have /script ←

10:21:10 <oedipus> Alessio: yes

Alessio Cartocci: yes ←

10:21:35 <oedipus> SP: let's use scripts there - that is poster-child example of why have to do this way

Steven Pemberton: let's use scripts there - that is poster-child example of why have to do this way ←

10:21:57 <oedipus> RM: concrete do this and don't do this in CSS columns

Roland Merrick: concrete do this and don't do this in CSS columns ←

10:21:59 <Tina> This was spotted "in the wild" last week: <div style="... "/>

Tina Holmboe: This was spotted "in the wild" last week: <div style="... "/> ←

10:22:10 <oedipus> SM: 2 votes for restoring A.3

Shane McCarron: 2 votes for restoring A.3 ←

10:22:29 <oedipus> RM: don't object, but understand distinction WG members making, but not sure authors care about

Roland Merrick: don't object, but understand distinction WG members making, but not sure authors care about ←

10:22:39 <oedipus> SP: then say "elements that can only be empty"

Steven Pemberton: then say "elements that can only be empty" ←

10:23:00 <oedipus> RM: some elements can only be empty; list them and what can do with them

Roland Merrick: some elements can only be empty; list them and what can do with them ←

10:23:07 <oedipus> SM: elements that can never have content?

Shane McCarron: elements that can never have content? ←

10:23:10 <oedipus> SP: works for me

Steven Pemberton: works for me ←

10:23:15 <alessio> +1

Alessio Cartocci: +1 ←

10:23:35 <oedipus> SM: Elements that can never have content versus Elements that may not contain content

Shane McCarron: Elements that can never have content versus Elements that may not contain content ←

10:23:40 <Tina> +1

Tina Holmboe: +1 ←

10:23:44 <oedipus> GJR +1

GJR +1 ←

10:24:01 <oedipus> RM: when do scripting, do certain things (but that topic for later)

Roland Merrick: when do scripting, do certain things (but that topic for later) ←

10:24:11 <oedipus> SM: script example in restored A.3?

Shane McCarron: script example in restored A.3? ←

10:24:28 <oedipus> SM: trying to capture ideas in draft - will update later

Shane McCarron: trying to capture ideas in draft - will update later ←

10:24:53 <oedipus> SM: A.4 "A.4. Embedded Style Sheets and Scripts" say "do" but not "do not"

Shane McCarron: A.4 "A.4. Embedded Style Sheets and Scripts" say "do" but not "do not" ←

10:24:58 <oedipus> RM: needs balance

Roland Merrick: needs balance ←

10:25:35 <oedipus> TH: why not say use external stylesheets and scripts - XHTML in HTML compatability mode, use external scripts

Tina Holmboe: why not say use external stylesheets and scripts - XHTML in HTML compatability mode, use external scripts ←

10:25:49 <oedipus> SM: unreasonable burden if all one is doing is adding a few localized styles

Shane McCarron: unreasonable burden if all one is doing is adding a few localized styles ←

10:26:01 <oedipus> RM: override one style with another for single document instance

Roland Merrick: override one style with another for single document instance ←

10:26:38 <oedipus> RM: example would be helpful - if use pointy brackets have to do like this in order to work, but easier to create and maintain external stylesheets

Roland Merrick: example would be helpful - if use pointy brackets have to do like this in order to work, but easier to create and maintain external stylesheets ←

10:27:27 <oedipus> SP: problem can arise if content gets fed through XSLT first - protecting documents; what we warn about could happen - authors should be aware

Steven Pemberton: problem can arise if content gets fed through XSLT first - protecting documents; what we warn about could happen - authors should be aware ←

10:28:03 <oedipus> GJR notes that FireVox cannot process external stylesheets but only embedded or inline CSS3-speech values

GJR notes that FireVox cannot process external stylesheets but only embedded or inline CSS3-speech values ←

10:28:29 <oedipus> SM: A.5 A.5. Line Breaks within Attribute Values - dont' know why anyone would care

Shane McCarron: A.5 A.5. Line Breaks within Attribute Values - dont' know why anyone would care ←

10:28:59 <oedipus> TH: some probably process new lines specially

Tina Holmboe: some probably process new lines specially ←

10:29:13 <oedipus> TH: as long as is CDATA should ignore new lines

Tina Holmboe: as long as is CDATA should ignore new lines ←

10:29:24 <oedipus> SM: so if datatypes IDREFs wouldn't be legal

Shane McCarron: so if datatypes IDREFs wouldn't be legal ←

10:29:34 <oedipus> SM: fine guideline, but don't know origin -- needs a do

Shane McCarron: fine guideline, but don't know origin -- needs a do ←

10:29:36 <oedipus> RM: yes

Roland Merrick: yes ←

10:30:26 <oedipus> RM: has this problem been mitigated over the years?

Roland Merrick: has this problem been mitigated over the years? ←

10:30:44 <oedipus> RM: perhaps confusion is that problem was limited and long time ago

Roland Merrick: perhaps confusion is that problem was limited and long time ago ←

10:30:57 <oedipus> SM: not a bad rule, but next rule is candidate for deletion

Shane McCarron: not a bad rule, but next rule is candidate for deletion ←

10:31:10 <oedipus> SM: A.6. isindex - who uses them?

Shane McCarron: A.6. isindex - who uses them? ←

10:31:18 <oedipus> GJR: deprecated in HTML4 anyway

Gregory Rosmaita: deprecated in HTML4 anyway ←

10:31:45 <oedipus> SM: original text wrong - no more than one ISINDEX element is a no brainer

Shane McCarron: original text wrong - no more than one ISINDEX element is a no brainer ←

10:31:50 <oedipus> SM: would remove A.6

Shane McCarron: would remove A.6 ←

10:31:52 <oedipus> SP: ok

Steven Pemberton: ok ←

10:31:56 <oedipus> Alessio: ok

Alessio Cartocci: ok ←

10:31:59 <oedipus> GJR: ok

Gregory Rosmaita: ok ←

10:32:27 <oedipus> SM: kept these consistent with Appendix C - even down to fragment IDs

Shane McCarron: kept these consistent with Appendix C - even down to fragment IDs ←

10:32:35 <oedipus> RM: can log changed

Roland Merrick: can log changed ←

10:32:43 <oedipus> SM: change number?

Shane McCarron: change number? ←

10:33:04 <oedipus> TH: use DEL to show A.6 no longer applicable

Tina Holmboe: use DEL to show A.6 no longer applicable ←

10:33:16 <oedipus> SM: renumber

Shane McCarron: renumber ←

10:33:18 <oedipus> SP: good

Steven Pemberton: good ←

10:33:35 <oedipus> SM: A.7. The lang and xml:lang Attributes - may be controversial

Shane McCarron: A.7. The lang and xml:lang Attributes - may be controversial ←

10:34:10 <oedipus> TH: tool looks at doctype then tries to figure out lang attribute

Tina Holmboe: tool looks at doctype then tries to figure out lang attribute ←

10:34:19 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita

Zakim IRC Bot: -Gregory_Rosmaita ←

10:34:56 <Steven> I have no problem with the lang and xml:lang

Steven Pemberton: I have no problem with the lang and xml:lang ←

10:35:11 <Steven> scribe: Steven

(Scribe set to Steven Pemberton)

10:35:35 <Steven> TH: I'm worried that tools that see it's HTML: will go looking for @lang

Tina Holmboe: I'm worried that tools that see it's HTML: will go looking for @lang ←

10:35:38 <oedipus> dropped the phone - must have disconnected

Gregory Rosmaita: dropped the phone - must have disconnected ←

10:36:06 <oedipus> ATs key off of lang - if try just xml:lang, won't switch natural langauges - can log as bug with GNOME's Orca

Gregory Rosmaita: ATs key off of lang - if try just xml:lang, won't switch natural langauges - can log as bug with GNOME's Orca ←

10:36:14 <Steven> Yam: I'm not sure about this issue

Toshihiko Yamakami: I'm not sure about this issue ←

10:36:35 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita

Zakim IRC Bot: +Gregory_Rosmaita ←

10:36:37 <Steven> ... we are thinking about removing @lang

... we are thinking about removing @lang ←

10:36:47 <Steven> ... but CSS selectors may use it (for instance)

... but CSS selectors may use it (for instance) ←

10:36:54 <Steven> ... we have no strong position though

... we have no strong position though ←

10:37:14 <Steven> scribe: oedipus

(Scribe set to Gregory Rosmaita)

10:37:59 <oedipus> need to find CSS selector example that uses aria live regions to change language of text

need to find CSS selector example that uses aria live regions to change language of text ←

10:38:09 <oedipus> SM: need portable way to indicated language change

Shane McCarron: need portable way to indicated language change ←

10:38:36 <oedipus> Yam: existing UA implementations use @lang for CSS selectors - we discourage use of that for XHTML family of languages consistency of use

Toshihiko Yamakami: existing UA implementations use @lang for CSS selectors - we discourage use of that for XHTML family of languages consistency of use ←

10:39:07 <oedipus> RM: people using lang specifically, can't write XHTML 1.1 or 1.2 document with @lang

Roland Merrick: people using lang specifically, can't write XHTML 1.1 or 1.2 document with @lang ←

10:39:23 <oedipus> SM: want to ensure rule works before ship XHTML2

Shane McCarron: want to ensure rule works before ship XHTML2 ←

10:39:30 <oedipus> SM: could reintroduce lang

Shane McCarron: could reintroduce lang ←

10:39:34 <oedipus> RM: perhaps target

Roland Merrick: perhaps target ←

10:39:59 <oedipus> GJR: AT problem is DOM calls and limitations AT-side on what it relies upon to key natural language switches

Gregory Rosmaita: AT problem is DOM calls and limitations AT-side on what it relies upon to key natural language switches ←

10:40:28 <oedipus> SP: if need compatability GLs to serve as HTML need lang, but in XHTML lang means nothing and is just there for convenience

Steven Pemberton: if need compatability GLs to serve as HTML need lang, but in XHTML lang means nothing and is just there for convenience ←

10:40:52 <oedipus> SM: normatively state allow @lang but if doc served as XHTML @lang must be ignored?

Shane McCarron: normatively state allow @lang but if doc served as XHTML @lang must be ignored? ←

10:41:17 <oedipus> SP: yes, no meaning in XHTML - only there for convenience of being able to serve XHTML documents to legacy browsers

Steven Pemberton: yes, no meaning in XHTML - only there for convenience of being able to serve XHTML documents to legacy browsers ←

10:41:21 <oedipus> RM: synonyms?

Roland Merrick: synonyms? ←

10:41:30 <oedipus> SP: then people might stop using xml:lang

Steven Pemberton: then people might stop using xml:lang ←

10:41:37 <oedipus> RM: rammifications?

Roland Merrick: rammifications? ←

10:42:32 <oedipus> SM: CSS selectors based on lang when have both lang and xml:lang - XHTML 1.1 document, for example, serving document in either media type, how to craft css selectors to make everything in latin pink and italic given i'm using lang and xml:lang

Shane McCarron: CSS selectors based on lang when have both lang and xml:lang - XHTML 1.1 document, for example, serving document in either media type, how to craft css selectors to make everything in latin pink and italic given i'm using lang and xml:lang ←

10:43:07 <oedipus> SP: no, use coma as delimeter -- CSS doesn't select on attribute - in HTML uses lang, in XHTML uses xml:lang, so only one rule in CSS

Steven Pemberton: no, use coma as delimeter -- CSS doesn't select on attribute - in HTML uses lang, in XHTML uses xml:lang, so only one rule in CSS ←

10:43:17 <oedipus> TH: could use CSS rule to key on @lang specifically

Tina Holmboe: could use CSS rule to key on @lang specifically ←

10:44:21 <oedipus> SP: CSS has knowledge of language text is in due to selector - language comes from parent element of current element; if current element is in latin, do this - only way to do in CSS anyway

Steven Pemberton: CSS has knowledge of language text is in due to selector - language comes from parent element of current element; if current element is in latin, do this - only way to do in CSS anyway ←

10:44:56 <oedipus> SP: no selector that says if parent of current element has @blah ...

Steven Pemberton: no selector that says if parent of current element has @blah ... ←

10:45:58 <oedipus> TH: selecing on lang attribute correct thing to do according to CSS

Tina Holmboe: selecing on lang attribute correct thing to do according to CSS ←

10:46:07 <oedipus> SP: can have select on lang and xml:lang

Steven Pemberton: can have select on lang and xml:lang ←

10:46:27 <oedipus> TH: people today select on lang - problem is HTML compatibility GLs

Tina Holmboe: people today select on lang - problem is HTML compatibility GLs ←

10:46:38 <oedipus> SP: why i'm suggesting we add lang back into the languages

Steven Pemberton: why i'm suggesting we add lang back into the languages ←

10:46:48 <oedipus> GJR plus 1 to readding @lang

GJR plus 1 to readding @lang ←

10:46:57 <ShaneM> q+ about how we support @lang via M12N

Shane McCarron: q+ about how we support @lang via M12N ←

10:47:22 <oedipus> TH: if people transformed to HTML would be easier

Tina Holmboe: if people transformed to HTML would be easier ←

10:47:38 <oedipus> TH: if transform from xml:lang to lang

Tina Holmboe: if transform from xml:lang to lang ←

10:47:50 <oedipus> SP: what is easier

Steven Pemberton: what is easier ←

10:48:01 <oedipus> TH: don't need to put lang into XHTML Base

Tina Holmboe: don't need to put lang into XHTML Base ←

10:48:42 <oedipus> SM: 2 sets of constituents to serve: one of them is "the great unwashed" - just have a simple site who want simple solutions; then there are sites such as amazon, which have FAR more resources can bring to bear

Shane McCarron: 2 sets of constituents to serve: one of them is "the great unwashed" - just have a simple site who want simple solutions; then there are sites such as amazon, which have FAR more resources can bring to bear ←

10:48:56 <oedipus> SP: but don't want to transform everytime serve page

Steven Pemberton: but don't want to transform everytime serve page ←

10:49:07 <oedipus> SM: cache it

Shane McCarron: cache it ←

10:49:21 <oedipus> RM: can i? if getting weather updated every 5 seconds, may never be cached

Roland Merrick: can i? if getting weather updated every 5 seconds, may never be cached ←

10:49:27 <ShaneM> q+ to discuss how we support @lang via M12N

Shane McCarron: q+ to discuss how we support @lang via M12N ←

10:49:28 <oedipus> SM: cached for 5 seconds

Shane McCarron: cached for 5 seconds ←

10:49:48 <oedipus> RM: a lot of transformation for 5 seconds

Roland Merrick: a lot of transformation for 5 seconds ←

10:50:30 <oedipus> SM: if permit lang along lines SP discussed - technically, how do we do that?

Shane McCarron: if permit lang along lines SP discussed - technically, how do we do that? ←

10:50:44 <oedipus> SM: or introduce new lang module?

Shane McCarron: or introduce new lang module? ←

10:51:10 <oedipus> SP: yeah, or may need other attributes, in which case a "compatability module" would be the answer

Steven Pemberton: yeah, or may need other attributes, in which case a "compatability module" would be the answer ←

10:51:20 <oedipus> Yam: have legacy module, right?

Toshihiko Yamakami: have legacy module, right? ←

10:51:29 <oedipus> SP: don't want to allow BLINK along with @lang

Steven Pemberton: don't want to allow BLINK along with @lang ←

10:51:42 <Zakim> -yamx

Zakim IRC Bot: -yamx ←

10:51:59 <oedipus> SM: lang not in legacy module now, so wouldn't be conflict if introduced elsewhere

Shane McCarron: lang not in legacy module now, so wouldn't be conflict if introduced elsewhere ←

10:52:23 <oedipus> SM: could introduce an HTML compatibility module as update to 1.1

Shane McCarron: could introduce an HTML compatibility module as update to 1.1 ←

10:52:24 <Zakim> +??P4

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P4 ←

10:52:34 <yamx> i killed line by mistake

Unknown yamx: i killed line by mistake ←

10:52:37 <oedipus> zakim, ??P4 is Yam

zakim, ??P4 is Yam ←

10:52:37 <Zakim> +Yam; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Yam; got it ←

10:52:38 <yamx> Zakim, ??P4 is yamx

Unknown yamx: Zakim, ??P4 is yamx ←

10:52:39 <Zakim> I already had ??P4 as Yam, yamx

Zakim IRC Bot: I already had ??P4 as Yam, yamx ←

10:52:50 <yamx> OK, zakim, thanks.

Unknown yamx: OK, zakim, thanks. ←

10:52:53 <oedipus> SM: compatibility GLs wouldn't be useful for 1.1

Shane McCarron: compatibility GLs wouldn't be useful for 1.1 ←

10:53:03 <oedipus> SP: better off using 1.2 anyway

Steven Pemberton: better off using 1.2 anyway ←

10:53:08 <oedipus> RM: definitely

Roland Merrick: definitely ←

10:53:44 <oedipus> SM: for this GL, "do use lang" - or "do use both" - realize can't if doing 1.1, Basic, +RDFa, etc

Shane McCarron: for this GL, "do use lang" - or "do use both" - realize can't if doing 1.1, Basic, +RDFa, etc ←

10:54:04 <oedipus> TH: need to put responsibility on author - use both

Tina Holmboe: need to put responsibility on author - use both ←

10:54:13 <oedipus> GJR: same thing authors do with name and id

Gregory Rosmaita: same thing authors do with name and id ←

10:54:52 <oedipus> SM: will update appropriately and then need to figure out how to help languages support both of these, but that is independent discusssion

Shane McCarron: will update appropriately and then need to figure out how to help languages support both of these, but that is independent discusssion ←

10:55:08 <oedipus> SM: "A.8. Fragment Identifiers" - not controversial

Shane McCarron: "A.8. Fragment Identifiers" - not controversial ←

10:55:10 <oedipus> TH: no

Tina Holmboe: no ←

10:55:40 <oedipus> SP: when wrote A.8 there were UAs that didn't recognize ID, but that has changed

Steven Pemberton: when wrote A.8 there were UAs that didn't recognize ID, but that has changed ←

10:55:44 <oedipus> SM: and i changed the doc

Shane McCarron: and i changed the doc ←

10:56:09 <oedipus> SM: "A.9. Character Encoding"

Shane McCarron: "A.9. Character Encoding" ←

10:56:14 <oedipus> SM: interesting problem

Shane McCarron: interesting problem ←

10:56:26 <oedipus> Yam: Japanese example would be useful

Toshihiko Yamakami: Japanese example would be useful ←

10:56:29 <oedipus> SM: true

Shane McCarron: true ←

10:56:56 <oedipus> SP: including mediatype and encoding in same metadata bad choice made way back when

Steven Pemberton: including mediatype and encoding in same metadata bad choice made way back when ←

10:57:22 <oedipus> RM: there is a default - if satisfied with default, don't need to do this

Roland Merrick: there is a default - if satisfied with default, don't need to do this ←

10:58:06 <oedipus> TH: back to HTTP spec - not possible - HTTP content type can be set as much as you want, but often receive US ASCII from server

Tina Holmboe: back to HTTP spec - not possible - HTTP content type can be set as much as you want, but often receive US ASCII from server ←

10:58:25 <oedipus> SM: if accessing document in filesystem not possible

Shane McCarron: if accessing document in filesystem not possible ←

10:58:34 <oedipus> TH: author can't change content type served by server

Tina Holmboe: author can't change content type served by server ←

10:59:20 <Steven> And some protocol;s don't support encodings, eg ftp, file:

Steven Pemberton: And some protocols don't support encodings, eg ftp, file: ←

10:59:28 <Steven> s/;/'/

10:59:28 <oedipus> TH: can't change content type set by server; practical problem; really ought to set on server - should stress

Tina Holmboe: can't change content type set by server; practical problem; really ought to set on server - should stress ←

10:59:43 <Steven> s/protocol's/protocols/

11:00:05 <oedipus> SM: if doc coming from server, character encoding is specified in response, so is authoritative, and may even override XML declaration

Shane McCarron: if doc coming from server, character encoding is specified in response, so is authoritative, and may even override XML declaration ←

11:00:07 <oedipus> TH: yes

Tina Holmboe: yes ←

11:00:17 <oedipus> SM: telling people not to use XML declaratoin

Shane McCarron: telling people not to use XML declaratoin ←

11:00:33 <oedipus> TH: bigger problem if send as XHTML and don't have control over encoding and content type

Tina Holmboe: bigger problem if send as XHTML and don't have control over encoding and content type ←

11:01:35 <oedipus> SM: serious problem - compatability GLs and content negotiation only relevant when have access to server and ability to control headers otherwise nothing we say matters

Shane McCarron: serious problem - compatability GLs and content negotiation only relevant when have access to server and ability to control headers otherwise nothing we say matters ←

11:01:52 <oedipus> TH: some think HTTP-EQUIV panacea; still sending as text/html

Tina Holmboe: some think HTTP-EQUIV panacea; still sending as text/html ←

11:02:02 <alessio> really true

Alessio Cartocci: really true ←

11:02:28 <oedipus> SP: HTML4 spec says that server should look at HTTP-EQUIV and send appropriate, but never implemented

Steven Pemberton: HTML4 spec says that server should look at HTTP-EQUIV and send appropriate, but never implemented ←

11:02:51 <oedipus> SP: GL should be "when serving a document, putting anything in the document that is unlikely to help because server always has priority"

Steven Pemberton: GL should be "when serving a document, putting anything in the document that is unlikely to help because server always has priority" ←

11:02:58 <oedipus> TH: also not to expect something else

Tina Holmboe: also not to expect something else ←

11:03:08 <oedipus> SP: META unlikely to help you at all

Steven Pemberton: META unlikely to help you at all ←

11:03:12 <oedipus> SM: maybe not mention

Shane McCarron: maybe not mention ←

11:03:17 <oedipus> SP: should to make explicit

Steven Pemberton: should to make explicit ←

11:03:29 <oedipus> RM: first item similar

Roland Merrick: first item similar ←

11:04:00 <oedipus> SM: suggestion: could we have 2 rules: when document being sent from server, do this

Shane McCarron: suggestion: could we have 2 rules: when document being sent from server, do this ←

11:04:12 <oedipus> SM: when document being accessed directly do this

Shane McCarron: when document being accessed directly do this ←

11:04:31 <Steven> Default for XML is UTF-8, right?

Steven Pemberton: Default for XML is UTF-8, right? ←

11:04:41 <oedipus> TH: even when served by HTTP daemon, even if proper content type served, save as HTML

Tina Holmboe: even when served by HTTP daemon, even if proper content type served, save as HTML ←

11:04:55 <alessio> yes, steven

Alessio Cartocci: yes, steven ←

11:05:32 <oedipus> TH: legacy issue; if not serving direct from server, use HTTP-EQUIV as per spec, but if set content type and char encoding on server

Tina Holmboe: legacy issue; if not serving direct from server, use HTTP-EQUIV as per spec, but if set content type and char encoding on server ←

11:05:39 <oedipus> RM: not an isolated issue

Roland Merrick: not an isolated issue ←

11:06:00 <oedipus> SM: why don't we just say - ifyou want to be compatible encode as UTF-8 or UTF-16

Shane McCarron: why don't we just say - ifyou want to be compatible encode as UTF-8 or UTF-16 ←

11:06:03 <oedipus> RM: agree

Roland Merrick: agree ←

11:06:13 <oedipus> SP: and state ensure that server serves it as UTF-8

Steven Pemberton: and state ensure that server serves it as UTF-8 ←

11:06:14 <alessio> +1

Alessio Cartocci: +1 ←

11:06:19 <oedipus> plus 1

plus 1 ←

11:06:43 <oedipus> RM: happy with that solution

Roland Merrick: happy with that solution ←

11:06:58 <oedipus> SM: if want docs to be protable, encode in UTF-8 or UTF-16

Shane McCarron: if want docs to be portable, encode in UTF-8 or UTF-16 ←

11:07:21 <oedipus> s/protable/portable

11:07:40 <oedipus> SP: people should use UTF-8 everywhere ideally

Steven Pemberton: people should use UTF-8 everywhere ideally ←

11:08:23 <oedipus> TH: make sure server announces correctly needs to be in GL

Tina Holmboe: make sure server announces correctly needs to be in GL ←

11:09:10 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#charset

http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#charset ←

11:09:34 <oedipus> HTML5: "If the document contains a meta element with a charset attribute or a meta element in the Encoding declaration state, then the character encoding used must be an ASCII-compatible character encoding. "

Scribe problem: the name 'HTML5' does not match any of the 22 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alessio Cartocci Alexander Graf Christina Bottomley Elias Torres Gerrie Shults Gregory Rosmaita John Kugelman Luca Mascaro Mark Birbeck Masataka Yakura Michael Rawling Richard Schwerdtfeger Roland Merrick Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer Shane McCarron Steven Pemberton Susan Borgrink Tina Holmboe Toshihiko Yamakami Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown HTML5: "If the document contains a meta element with a charset attribute or a meta element in the Encoding declaration state, then the character encoding used must be an ASCII-compatible character encoding. " ←

11:10:09 <oedipus> SM: HTML5 talking about default when no server - we say use META HTTP-EQUIV

Shane McCarron: HTML5 talking about default when no server - we say use META HTTP-EQUIV ←

11:10:24 <oedipus> HTML5: "If the document does not start with a BOM, and if its encoding is not explicitly given by Content-Type metadata, then the character encoding used must be an ASCII-compatible character encoding, and, in addition, if that encoding isn't US-ASCII itself, then the encoding must be specified using a meta element with a charset attribute or a meta element in the Encoding declaration state. "

Unknown HTML5: "If the document does not start with a BOM, and if its encoding is not explicitly given by Content-Type metadata, then the character encoding used must be an ASCII-compatible character encoding, and, in addition, if that encoding isn't US-ASCII itself, then the encoding must be specified using a meta element with a charset attribute or a meta element in the Encoding declaration state. " ←

11:10:46 <oedipus> SP: anyone actually look at HTTP-EQUIV

Steven Pemberton: anyone actually look at HTTP-EQUIV ←

11:10:51 <oedipus> SM: browsers do

Shane McCarron: browsers do ←

11:11:00 <oedipus> TH: most commonly used browsers do

Tina Holmboe: most commonly used browsers do ←

11:11:27 <oedipus> TH: issue is what is use they make of it - some ignore content type based on extension

Tina Holmboe: issue is what is use they make of it - some ignore content type based on extension ←

11:11:45 <oedipus> Yam: use META HTTP-EQUIV to ensure japanese encoding

Toshihiko Yamakami: use META HTTP-EQUIV to ensure japanese encoding ←

11:12:04 <oedipus> Yam: all Japanese encoding should be in meta http-equiv

Toshihiko Yamakami: all Japanese encoding should be in meta http-equiv ←

11:12:11 <oedipus> SM: that overrides HTTP headers?

Shane McCarron: that overrides HTTP headers? ←

11:12:32 <oedipus> Yam: not sure; easier for carrier to serve

Toshihiko Yamakami: not sure; easier for carrier to serve ←

11:12:59 <oedipus> SM: A.10. Boolean Attributes

Shane McCarron: A.10. Boolean Attributes ←

11:13:04 <oedipus> SM: controversy?

Shane McCarron: controversy? ←

11:13:10 <oedipus> RM: looks good

Roland Merrick: looks good ←

11:13:29 <oedipus> SM: A.11. Document Object Model and XHTML

Shane McCarron: A.11. Document Object Model and XHTML ←

11:13:49 <oedipus> Alessio: can get to HTML DOM as well

Alessio Cartocci: can get to HTML DOM as well ←

11:14:05 <oedipus> SM: will remove "if is really true" editorial note

Shane McCarron: will remove "if is really true" editorial note ←

11:14:18 <oedipus> TH: as long as works with HTML4 UAs don;t have problem

Tina Holmboe: as long as works with HTML4 UAs don;t have problem ←

11:14:33 <oedipus> SM: A.12. Using Ampersands

Shane McCarron: A.12. Using Ampersands ←

11:14:57 <oedipus> fine with GJR

fine with GJR ←

11:15:14 <oedipus> SP: sentence difficult to read - AND in all caps

Steven Pemberton: sentence difficult to read - AND in all caps ←

11:15:24 <oedipus> SP: change AND to lower case

Steven Pemberton: change AND to lower case ←

11:15:30 <oedipus> TH: possibly STRONG?

Tina Holmboe: possibly STRONG? ←

11:15:49 <oedipus> TH: if possible, use semi-colon instead of ampersands in URIs

Tina Holmboe: if possible, use semi-colon instead of ampersands in URIs ←

11:16:35 <oedipus> SM: made change to case of "and"

Shane McCarron: made change to case of "and" ←

11:17:20 <oedipus> GJR: plus an abbr expansion for & <abbr title="ampersand">&</abbr>

Gregory Rosmaita: plus an abbr expansion for & <abbr title="ampersand">&</abbr> ←

11:17:52 <oedipus> SM: when using ampersand in URI use its escaped form

Shane McCarron: when using ampersand in URI use its escaped form ←

11:17:53 <oedipus> SM: A.13. Cascading Style Sheets (CSS) and XHTML

Shane McCarron: A.13. Cascading Style Sheets (CSS) and XHTML ←

11:18:01 <oedipus> SM: may have over-simplified

Shane McCarron: may have over-simplified ←

11:18:10 <oedipus> RM: may want to make comment on lang here

Roland Merrick: may want to make comment on lang here ←

11:18:23 <oedipus> SP: CSS selector on xml:lang rather than lang

Steven Pemberton: CSS selector on xml:lang rather than lang ←

11:18:45 <oedipus> SM: do nots needed?

Shane McCarron: do nots needed? ←

11:18:50 <oedipus> RM: inverse fairly obvious

Roland Merrick: inverse fairly obvious ←

11:19:09 <oedipus> SM: added thing about style HTML element

Shane McCarron: added thing about style HTML element ←

11:19:30 <oedipus> SM: in HTML style on body becomes style for entire viewport; in XML does not

Shane McCarron: in HTML style on body becomes style for entire viewport; in XML does not ←

11:19:45 <oedipus> TH: change Do rule - if need to set, then...

Tina Holmboe: change Do rule - if need to set, then... ←

11:20:46 <oedipus> SP: special rule in CSS is because early versions of IE didn't have style for HTML element, so CSS states, style BODY element

Steven Pemberton: special rule in CSS is because early versions of IE didn't have style for HTML element, so CSS states, style BODY element ←

11:20:52 <oedipus> SM: do style HTML element?

Shane McCarron: do style HTML element? ←

11:21:06 <oedipus> SP: no, for compatability reasons, style BODY rather than HTML element

Steven Pemberton: no, for compatability reasons, style BODY rather than HTML element ←

11:21:28 <oedipus> SM: style applies only to block not whole window

Shane McCarron: style applies only to block not whole window ←

11:22:04 <oedipus> SP: if you want to remove styling put on HTML, have to define style for HTML, but this might be the ocassion to say "this is an old rule"

Steven Pemberton: if you want to remove styling put on HTML, have to define style for HTML, but this might be the ocassion to say "this is an old rule" ←

11:22:26 <oedipus> SP: when wrote, were browsers that didn't support HTML

Steven Pemberton: when wrote, were browsers that didn't support HTML ←

11:22:30 <oedipus> SM: just added this

Shane McCarron: just added this ←

11:22:54 <oedipus> RM: implications - example of consequences - we need to make clear what consequences are

Roland Merrick: implications - example of consequences - we need to make clear what consequences are ←

11:23:44 <oedipus> SM: good point, Roland; maybe not even necessary to say this; authors put style on BODY, not HEAD; and when served as HTML style on BODY apply to entire window

Shane McCarron: good point, Roland; maybe not even necessary to say this; authors put style on BODY, not HEAD; and when served as HTML style on BODY apply to entire window ←

11:24:00 <oedipus> SP: what CSS spec says, but not reality; 2px margin around HTML element

Steven Pemberton: what CSS spec says, but not reality; 2px margin around HTML element ←

11:24:37 <oedipus> SP: why can't i get rid of margin around my HTML document - reason: have to explicitly state padding:0;margin:0

Steven Pemberton: why can't i get rid of margin around my HTML document - reason: have to explicitly state padding:0;margin:0 ←

11:24:42 <oedipus> SM: do we need this rule?

Shane McCarron: do we need this rule? ←

11:24:44 <oedipus> SP: no

Steven Pemberton: no ←

11:25:06 <oedipus> TH: need rule to point this out

Tina Holmboe: need rule to point this out ←

11:25:28 <oedipus> RM: rationale needs more work - particularly important for this appendix a section

Roland Merrick: rationale needs more work - particularly important for this appendix a section ←

11:25:36 <oedipus> SM: will try to update so can revisit later

Shane McCarron: will try to update so can revisit later ←

11:26:14 <oedipus> SM: had been telling people to use xml style declarations, and i think we should tell people not to use them for compatibility

Shane McCarron: had been telling people to use xml style declarations, and i think we should tell people not to use them for compatibility ←

11:26:37 <oedipus> SM: A.15. White Space Characters in HTML vs. XML

Shane McCarron: A.15. White Space Characters in HTML vs. XML ←

11:26:57 <oedipus> SM: should change name from "white space"

Shane McCarron: should change name from "white space" ←

11:27:00 <oedipus> SP: agreee

Steven Pemberton: agreee ←

11:27:08 <oedipus> SM: A.16. The Named Character Reference '

Shane McCarron: A.16. The Named Character Reference ' ←

11:27:36 <oedipus> TH: typographcally, is right single quote - no problem with A.16, but shouldn't get into typography side of it

Tina Holmboe: typographcally, is right single quote - no problem with A.16, but shouldn't get into typography side of it ←

11:27:37 <oedipus> SM: ok

Shane McCarron: ok ←

11:28:14 <oedipus> ===== ADJOURN FOR LUNCH - RETURN in 77 Minutes (quarter to next hour ======

4. ADJOURN FOR LUNCH - RETURN in 77 Minutes (quarter to next hour ======

11:28:19 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

11:28:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/18-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/18-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←

11:28:19 <Zakim> -ShaneM

Zakim IRC Bot: -ShaneM ←

11:28:20 <Zakim> -Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: -Steven ←

11:28:24 <Zakim> -Yam

Zakim IRC Bot: -Yam ←

11:28:25 <Zakim> -Tina

Zakim IRC Bot: -Tina ←

11:28:26 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita

Zakim IRC Bot: -Gregory_Rosmaita ←

11:28:26 <Zakim> -Roland

Zakim IRC Bot: -Roland ←

11:28:28 <Zakim> -Alessio

Zakim IRC Bot: -Alessio ←

11:28:30 <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()4:00AM has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: IA_XHTML2()4:00AM has ended ←

11:28:32 <Zakim> Attendees were Roland, Steven, Gregory_Rosmaita, yamx, ShaneM, Alessio, Tina, Yam

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were Roland, Steven, Gregory_Rosmaita, yamx, ShaneM, Alessio, Tina, Yam ←

12:44:07 <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()4:00AM has now started

(No events recorded for 75 minutes)

Zakim IRC Bot: IA_XHTML2()4:00AM has now started ←

12:44:14 <Zakim> +Roland

Zakim IRC Bot: +Roland ←

12:44:42 <Zakim> +ShaneM

Zakim IRC Bot: +ShaneM ←

12:45:12 <yamx> OK, I will join, too.

Unknown yamx: OK, I will join, too. ←

12:45:34 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617

Steven Pemberton: zakim, dial steven-617 ←

12:45:34 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven; the call is being made ←

12:45:36 <Zakim> +Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: +Steven ←

12:45:49 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita

Zakim IRC Bot: +Gregory_Rosmaita ←

12:45:53 <Zakim> +??P8

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P8 ←

12:46:06 <oedipus> zakim, ??P8 is Yam

zakim, ??P8 is Yam ←

12:46:06 <Zakim> +Yam; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Yam; got it ←

12:46:17 <yamx> Thanks.

Unknown yamx: Thanks. ←

12:46:18 <Zakim> +??P9

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P9 ←

12:46:22 <alessio> zakim, ??P9

Alessio Cartocci: zakim, ??P9 ←

12:46:22 <Zakim> I don't understand '??P9', alessio

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand '??P9', alessio ←

12:46:22 <oedipus> my pleasure

my pleasure ←

12:46:26 <alessio> zakim, ??P9 is Alessio

Alessio Cartocci: zakim, ??P9 is Alessio ←

12:46:26 <Zakim> +Alessio; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Alessio; got it ←

12:46:35 <Zakim> +Tina

Zakim IRC Bot: +Tina ←

12:47:21 <oedipus> SP: complete discussion of media types?

Steven Pemberton: complete discussion of media types? ←

12:47:28 <oedipus> SM: enough to create a new draft

Shane McCarron: enough to create a new draft ←

12:47:42 <oedipus> RM: one other thing: validator thing olivier brought up

Roland Merrick: one other thing: validator thing olivier brought up ←

12:47:49 <ShaneM> Olivier says:  Good. How about:

Shane McCarron: Olivier says: Good. How about: ←

12:47:49 <ShaneM> - [now] updating the tool to match the draft guidelines in the ED of xhtmlmime

Shane McCarron: - [now] updating the tool to match the draft guidelines in the ED of xhtmlmime ←

12:47:49 <ShaneM> - [soon] including the checks into the validator, mark them as [experimental], informative, whatever. That will provide us with better and more feedback than just a WD.

Shane McCarron: - [soon] including the checks into the validator, mark them as [experimental], informative, whatever. That will provide us with better and more feedback than just a WD. ←

12:47:56 <oedipus> SM: his proposal to me this morning appears above

Shane McCarron: his proposal to me this morning appears above ←

12:48:29 <oedipus> RM: something we'd like to see, isn't it?

Roland Merrick: something we'd like to see, isn't it? ←

12:49:05 <oedipus> RM: do we believe running through validator to get info if suitable to be served?

Roland Merrick: do we believe running through validator to get info if suitable to be served? ←

12:49:24 <oedipus> GJR thinks would promote awareness

GJR thinks would promote awareness ←

12:49:29 <alessio> yes

Alessio Cartocci: yes ←

12:50:29 <oedipus> SM: concern is "validator as holy writ" -- good or bad, depending upon whether it works; would be more comfortable if could provide WG resources to work on that

Shane McCarron: concern is "validator as holy writ" -- good or bad, depending upon whether it works; would be more comfortable if could provide WG resources to work on that ←

12:50:47 <oedipus> (that being validator and control over changes)

(that being validator and control over changes) ←

12:51:08 <oedipus> SP: depends on how they present information -- warnings versus errors

Steven Pemberton: depends on how they present information -- warnings versus errors ←

12:51:16 <oedipus> RM: that is what they did

Roland Merrick: that is what they did ←

12:51:55 <oedipus> SM: get document updated to reflect discussion today; respond to olivier that WG ok with warnings

Shane McCarron: get document updated to reflect discussion today; respond to olivier that WG ok with warnings ←

12:52:20 <oedipus> GJR would like a STRICT mode where errors are reported as errors

GJR would like a STRICT mode where errors are reported as errors ←

12:52:39 <oedipus> SM: open source tool

Shane McCarron: open source tool ←

12:52:57 <oedipus> RM: anyone can hack anytime want to; what is in w3c validator he takes care of

Roland Merrick: anyone can hack anytime want to; what is in w3c validator he takes care of ←

12:53:37 <ShaneM> ACTION: Shane to finish the updating the XHTMLMIME draft then respond to Olivier's proposal.

ACTION: Shane to finish the updating the XHTMLMIME draft then respond to Olivier's proposal. ←

12:53:45 <oedipus> RM: anything anyone wants to mention in closing on mime doc?

Roland Merrick: anything anyone wants to mention in closing on mime doc? ←

12:54:06 <oedipus> TOPIC: XHTML 1.n (Follow on to 1.1)

5. XHTML 1.n (Follow on to 1.1)

12:54:46 <oedipus> RM: have 1.1 spec waiting for modularization; proposed change adding target attribute back in, which is considered not in scope of what should do in new edition

Roland Merrick: have 1.1 spec waiting for modularization; proposed change adding target attribute back in, which is considered not in scope of what should do in new edition ←

12:54:51 <oedipus> RM: what do we do next?

Roland Merrick: what do we do next? ←

12:54:59 <oedipus> RM: drop from second edition?

Roland Merrick: drop from second edition? ←

12:55:11 <oedipus> RM: release XHTML 1.n and if so what would be in it?

Roland Merrick: release XHTML 1.n and if so what would be in it? ←

12:55:49 <oedipus> SP: adding @target to 1.1 is that Basic needs -- 1.1 should be considered full Basic with all facets of Basic

Steven Pemberton: adding @target to 1.1 is that Basic needs -- 1.1 should be considered full Basic with all facets of Basic ←

12:56:13 <oedipus> TH: @target to open frame or new window?

Tina Holmboe: @target to open frame or new window? ←

12:56:22 <oedipus> TH: no reason to put into declarative markup language

Tina Holmboe: no reason to put into declarative markup language ←

12:56:28 <oedipus> SM: why is target not useful

Shane McCarron: why is target not useful ←

12:56:37 <oedipus> TH: authors shouldn't force new windows

Tina Holmboe: authors shouldn't force new windows ←

12:56:45 <oedipus> TH: if in XFrames, ok, but not in Basic

Tina Holmboe: if in XFrames, ok, but not in Basic ←

12:57:08 <oedipus> GJR notes that handling of @target is user agent control issue being addressed in UAAG2.0

GJR notes that handling of @target is user agent control issue being addressed in UAAG2.0 ←

12:57:23 <oedipus> TH: opening windows outside scope of declarative language

Tina Holmboe: opening windows outside scope of declarative language ←

12:57:49 <oedipus> Yam: against using target, but made compromise with CDF or another WG who demanded it be restored; don't think we need it

Toshihiko Yamakami: against using target, but made compromise with CDF or another WG who demanded it be restored; don't think we need it ←

12:57:55 <oedipus> SP: SVG or CDF?

Steven Pemberton: SVG or CDF? ←

12:58:02 <oedipus> SP: doesn't SVG need it in some way?

Steven Pemberton: doesn't SVG need it in some way? ←

12:58:24 <oedipus> RM: compatability guide question -- html mime --- inhibiter for those trying to move from HTML to XML

Roland Merrick: compatability guide question -- html mime --- inhibiter for those trying to move from HTML to XML ←

12:58:32 <oedipus> SP: reasonalbe use cases for @target

Steven Pemberton: reasonalbe use cases for @target ←

12:58:54 <oedipus> SP: list of search results - click on a search result to get result without changing underlying doc

Steven Pemberton: list of search results - click on a search result to get result without changing underlying doc ←

12:58:59 <oedipus> TH: UA has built in

Tina Holmboe: UA has built in ←

12:59:11 <oedipus> TH: those that can spawn new windows have that feature

Tina Holmboe: those that can spawn new windows have that feature ←

12:59:18 <oedipus> Q+

Q+ ←

12:59:31 <oedipus> GJR author proposes, user disposes

GJR author proposes, user disposes ←

12:59:50 <oedipus> SM: @target has different semantics in SVG?

Shane McCarron: @target has different semantics in SVG? ←

13:00:35 <oedipus> Yam: against @target in 1.2 -- agree that natural that have in 1.1, but from practical POV it is a mess -- HTML5, XHTML2, etc.

Toshihiko Yamakami: against @target in 1.2 -- agree that natural that have in 1.1, but from practical POV it is a mess -- HTML5, XHTML2, etc. ←

13:00:50 <oedipus> SP: talking about 1.1 -- issue 1.1 as proper superset of basic

Steven Pemberton: talking about 1.1 -- ISSUE-1.1 as proper superset of basic ←

13:01:09 <oedipus> SM: if don't add anything to 1.1 can release as PER

Shane McCarron: if don't add anything to 1.1 can release as PER ←

13:01:12 <oedipus> with schema

with schema ←

13:01:21 <oedipus> SM: would not be superset of Basic

Shane McCarron: would not be superset of Basic ←

13:01:23 <oedipus> SP: why not

Steven Pemberton: why not ←

13:01:30 <oedipus> SM: not including @target

Shane McCarron: not including @target ←

13:01:46 <oedipus> SM: those who care about input mode and @target will be affected - who are they?

Shane McCarron: those who care about input mode and @target will be affected - who are they? ←

13:02:02 <oedipus> Yam: don't care if 1.1 is superset or not

Toshihiko Yamakami: don't care if 1.1 is superset or not ←

13:02:33 <oedipus> SM: very good point: explanation of XHTML family would be fine to support 1.1 second edition or first edition -- basic 1.1 document

Shane McCarron: very good point: explanation of XHTML family would be fine to support 1.1 second edition or first edition -- basic 1.1 document ←

13:02:59 <oedipus> SM: @target is single-most requested feature in our public wish list

Shane McCarron: @target is single-most requested feature in our public wish list ←

13:03:21 <oedipus> TH: any UA used today that allows user not to open @target-ed windows

Tina Holmboe: any UA used today that allows user not to open @target-ed windows ←

13:03:43 <oedipus> RM: a lot of users don't know that can click on link and open new window

Roland Merrick: a lot of users don't know that can click on link and open new window ←

13:04:55 <oedipus> TH: @target specifies UA behavior in practice

Tina Holmboe: @target specifies UA behavior in practice ←

13:05:02 <oedipus> SP: a "hook" for use by

Steven Pemberton: a "hook" for use by ←

13:05:02 <alessio> you're right, gregory

Alessio Cartocci: you're right, gregory ←

13:05:20 <oedipus> GJR: render unto User Agent what is user agent...

Gregory Rosmaita: render unto User Agent what is user agent... ←

13:05:41 <oedipus> TH: going to be used to open new windows - removed to prevent that so shouldn't go back in

Tina Holmboe: going to be used to open new windows - removed to prevent that so shouldn't go back in ←

13:06:07 <oedipus> SP: didn't remove - never in STRICT and 1.1 is a revised version of STRICT, but didn't revise version of transitional DTD b/c nothing to revise

Steven Pemberton: didn't remove - never in STRICT and 1.1 is a revised version of STRICT, but didn't revise version of transitional DTD b/c nothing to revise ←

13:06:21 <oedipus> SP: one thing people have asked for is to use @target in 1.1

Steven Pemberton: one thing people have asked for is to use @target in 1.1 ←

13:06:43 <oedipus> SP: not clear why we should say people shouldn't do that - perhaps should give arguments for people not opening windows

Steven Pemberton: not clear why we should say people shouldn't do that - perhaps should give arguments for people not opening windows ←

13:06:48 <oedipus> TH: why put back?

Tina Holmboe: why put back? ←

13:06:52 <oedipus> SP: popular demand

Steven Pemberton: popular demand ←

13:07:01 <oedipus> TH: what purpose does @target fill in XHTML?

Tina Holmboe: what purpose does @target fill in XHTML? ←

13:07:34 <alessio> people reintroduces it with dom injection...

Alessio Cartocci: people reintroduces it with dom injection... ←

13:07:38 <oedipus> TH: know complaints, but purpose aren't for frames mostly but for forcing open new windows

Tina Holmboe: know complaints, but purpose aren't for frames mostly but for forcing open new windows ←

13:07:49 <oedipus> SP: XFrames - target a document onto a frame

Steven Pemberton: XFrames - target a document onto a frame ←

13:08:13 <oedipus> SP: XFrames does NOT need @target - that's why need in HTML - if environment that needs this, here are the hooks you use

Steven Pemberton: XFrames does NOT need @target - that's why need in HTML - if environment that needs this, here are the hooks you use ←

13:08:45 <oedipus> Alessio: @target should not be in 1.1 -- regard @target as action

Alessio Cartocci: @target should not be in 1.1 -- regard @target as action ←

13:08:58 <oedipus> SP: SVG uses @target, i believe -- trying to locate

Steven Pemberton: SVG uses @target, i believe -- trying to locate ←

13:09:41 <oedipus> Alessio: 2 diff roles for target - 1. to open new window; 2. to point at a frame in a frameset or multimedia concept

Alessio Cartocci: 2 diff roles for target - 1. to open new window; 2. to point at a frame in a frameset or multimedia concept ←

13:10:02 <oedipus> RM: if we don't have @target, what is effect? going to write scripts to force open scripts

Roland Merrick: if we don't have @target, what is effect? going to write scripts to force open scripts ←

13:10:19 <oedipus> RM: inhibitor to go to 1.1 or will just write script

Roland Merrick: inhibitor to go to 1.1 or will just write script ←

13:10:36 <oedipus> TH: include despite bad practice because people going to do it anyway

Tina Holmboe: include despite bad practice because people going to do it anyway ←

13:11:01 <oedipus> GJR notes that BLOCKQUOTE deprecated for layout purposes in HTML4x but you can find it used for layout on W3C site

GJR notes that BLOCKQUOTE deprecated for layout purposes in HTML4x but you can find it used for layout on W3C site ←

13:11:42 <oedipus> TH: why @target in HTML? to open new windows - compromise: use to target fragments that already exist - not to open new windows because that is not role of markup langauge

Tina Holmboe: why @target in HTML? to open new windows - compromise: use to target fragments that already exist - not to open new windows because that is not role of markup langauge ←

13:11:53 <oedipus> TH: say "is NOT to be used to open new windows"

Tina Holmboe: say "is NOT to be used to open new windows" ←

13:11:59 <Steven> "The target attribute is designed to be a general hook for binding to an external environment"

Steven Pemberton: "The target attribute is designed to be a general hook for binding to an external environment" ←

13:12:04 <ShaneM> see http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/CR-xhtml-basic-20070713/#s_xhtmlmodules for explanation of Target Module

Shane McCarron: see http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/CR-xhtml-basic-20070713/#s_xhtmlmodules for explanation of Target Module ←

13:12:24 <alessio> another use of "target" attribute: http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/REC-SMIL2-20050107/extended-linking.html

Alessio Cartocci: another use of "target" attribute: http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/REC-SMIL2-20050107/extended-linking.html ←

13:12:50 <oedipus> @target itself could be repurposed to a new tab, a sidebar by user agent

@target itself could be repurposed to a new tab, a sidebar by user agent ←

13:13:08 <oedipus> TH: user agent problem that persists - @target simply opens new window/browser instance

Tina Holmboe: user agent problem that persists - @target simply opens new window/browser instance ←

13:13:18 <oedipus> TH: why cave in to an illegitimate request?

Tina Holmboe: why cave in to an illegitimate request? ←

13:13:30 <oedipus> SP: what is wrong with clicking on things to open windows

Steven Pemberton: what is wrong with clicking on things to open windows ←

13:13:36 <oedipus> SM: explicit user action

Shane McCarron: explicit user action ←

13:13:43 <oedipus> GJR: that is point of UAAG1 and UAAG2

Gregory Rosmaita: that is point of UAAG1 and UAAG2 ←

13:13:48 <alessio> target in SMIL: "This attribute defines either the existing display environment in which the link should be opened (e.g., a SMIL region, an HTML frame or another named window), or triggers the creation of a new display environment with the given name. Its value is the identifier of the display environment. If no currently active display environment has this identifier, a new display environment is opened and assigned the identifier of the target."

Alessio Cartocci: target in SMIL: "This attribute defines either the existing display environment in which the link should be opened (e.g., a SMIL region, an HTML frame or another named window), or triggers the creation of a new display environment with the given name. Its value is the identifier of the display environment. If no currently active display environment has this identifier, a new display environment is opened and assigned the identifier of the target." ←

13:13:55 <oedipus> TH: open in same window or another window

Tina Holmboe: open in same window or another window ←

13:14:01 <oedipus> SP: programming problem with browser

Steven Pemberton: programming problem with browser ←

13:14:09 <oedipus> TH: support a11y by suppressing @target

Tina Holmboe: support a11y by suppressing @target ←

13:14:27 <oedipus> TH: take stand that every problem due to poor user agents

Tina Holmboe: take stand that every problem due to poor user agents ←

13:14:35 <oedipus> TH: opens unpleasant can of worms

Tina Holmboe: opens unpleasant can of worms ←

13:14:48 <oedipus> SP: agree with removing features that have no raison d'etre

Steven Pemberton: agree with removing features that have no raison d'etre ←

13:14:57 <oedipus> SP: open windows all day long by clicking on things

Steven Pemberton: open windows all day long by clicking on things ←

13:15:09 <oedipus> GJR: @target should be treated as an option, not an absolute

Gregory Rosmaita: @target should be treated as an option, not an absolute ←

13:15:38 <oedipus> TH: if going to say has good uses, have to also note problems

Tina Holmboe: if going to say has good uses, have to also note problems ←

13:15:58 <oedipus> SP: both cases UA problem

Steven Pemberton: both cases UA problem ←

13:16:06 <oedipus> TH: in one case SHOULD in other SHOULD NOT

Tina Holmboe: in one case SHOULD in other SHOULD NOT ←

13:16:41 <yamx> I don't think this argument is productive... If we don't like target (I am not a fan of target), we should discuss in XHTML Basic 1.1., not in XHTML 1.n 2nd edition...

Unknown yamx: I don't think this argument is productive... If we don't like target (I am not a fan of target), we should discuss in XHTML Basic 1.1., not in XHTML 1.n 2nd edition... ←

13:17:21 <oedipus> @target should be treated as an option by UAs until explicit user action determines what to do

@target should be treated as an option by UAs until explicit user action determines what to do ←

13:17:30 <yamx> Whatever it is. XHTML 1.n 2nd ed should be a super set of XHTML Basic 1.1., which is the starting point of this discussion.

Unknown yamx: Whatever it is. XHTML 1.n 2nd ed should be a super set of XHTML Basic 1.1., which is the starting point of this discussion. ←

13:17:50 <oedipus> RM: applications in windows environment still open windows that are accessible

Roland Merrick: applications in windows environment still open windows that are accessible ←

13:17:56 <oedipus> TH: don't agree

Tina Holmboe: don't agree ←

13:18:13 <oedipus> TH: far larger probability if opens in new window won't know

Tina Holmboe: far larger probability if opens in new window won't know ←

13:18:15 <oedipus> q+

q+ ←

13:18:27 <ShaneM> q+

Shane McCarron: q+ ←

13:18:39 <oedipus> TH: authors shouldn't make assumptions

Tina Holmboe: authors shouldn't make assumptions ←

13:18:46 <oedipus> GJR: author proposes, user disposes

Gregory Rosmaita: author proposes, user disposes ←

13:19:01 <oedipus> SP: opposite is never open another link in another window - non sequitor

Steven Pemberton: opposite is never open another link in another window - non sequitor ←

13:19:03 <alessio> maybe the UA could help, alerting when a new window is prospected

Alessio Cartocci: maybe the UA could help, alerting when a new window is prospected ←

13:19:50 <oedipus> TH: problem include link and target to open in new window, have no idea what happens when link gets to user - author wants to open new window, user will be surprised by uncertainty and unexpected behavior

Tina Holmboe: problem include link and target to open in new window, have no idea what happens when link gets to user - author wants to open new window, user will be surprised by uncertainty and unexpected behavior ←

13:20:33 <oedipus> SP: filling in long form, don't understand something, click on help link, tells me what to do, but hasn't destroyed context of form and other helps open in same popup window

Steven Pemberton: filling in long form, don't understand something, click on help link, tells me what to do, but hasn't destroyed context of form and other helps open in same popup window ←

13:20:45 <oedipus> TH: if 800% magnification, where does window open?

Tina Holmboe: if 800% magnification, where does window open? ←

13:20:58 <yamx> target has an interoperability problem in mobile domain, certainly, but we have to accept @target for compromising SVG group...

Unknown yamx: target has an interoperability problem in mobile domain, certainly, but we have to accept @target for compromising SVG group... ←

13:21:13 <oedipus> there is a queue

there is a queue ←

13:21:39 <oedipus> AT should alert the user that new window being opened or new pane / tab being opened

AT should alert the user that new window being opened or new pane / tab being opened ←

13:21:52 <oedipus> TH: shou ld be user's choice, not authors

Tina Holmboe: shou ld be user's choice, not authors ←

13:22:17 <ShaneM> q-

Shane McCarron: q- ←

13:23:26 <oedipus> q-

q- ←

13:24:15 <oedipus> TH: screen magnifiers - simply blow up what is on screen - too dumb an app

Tina Holmboe: screen magnifiers - simply blow up what is on screen - too dumb an app ←

13:24:32 <oedipus> GJR: if no @target will end up with raw javascripted links which are a WCAG violation

Gregory Rosmaita: if no @target will end up with raw javascripted links which are a WCAG violation ←

13:24:34 <Zakim> -Alessio

Zakim IRC Bot: -Alessio ←

13:25:08 <oedipus> RM: not language purity - from author and/or user -- what do constituents want: authors creating material, and users interacting with that

Roland Merrick: not language purity - from author and/or user -- what do constituents want: authors creating material, and users interacting with that ←

13:25:37 <oedipus> RM: if in there could treat @target as an option - if have javascript won't have single standard hook

Roland Merrick: if in there could treat @target as an option - if have javascript won't have single standard hook ←

13:25:46 <oedipus> TH: to this point no UA has implemented that

Tina Holmboe: to this point no UA has implemented that ←

13:26:16 <oedipus> TH: user agents include options to open new windows and tabs from context menues; not bothered to use @target to give users an option

Tina Holmboe: user agents include options to open new windows and tabs from context menues; not bothered to use @target to give users an option ←

13:26:25 <Zakim> +??P0

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P0 ←

13:26:27 <oedipus> RM: will just use javascript to do anyway

Roland Merrick: will just use javascript to do anyway ←

13:26:31 <alessio> zakim, ??P0 is Alessio

Alessio Cartocci: zakim, ??P0 is Alessio ←

13:26:31 <Zakim> +Alessio; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Alessio; got it ←

13:26:56 <Steven> q+

Steven Pemberton: q+ ←

13:27:14 <ShaneM> q+

Shane McCarron: q+ ←

13:27:15 <oedipus> The more things are forbidden, the more popular they become. -- Mark Twain

The more things are forbidden, the more popular they become. -- Mark Twain ←

13:27:25 <oedipus> TH: why not restore MARQUEE

Tina Holmboe: why not restore MARQUEE ←

13:27:30 <Steven> We have had no requests to put marquee back in

Steven Pemberton: We have had no requests to put marquee back in ←

13:27:30 <oedipus> TH: same rationale

Tina Holmboe: same rationale ←

13:27:52 <Steven> there is a queue

Steven Pemberton: there is a queue ←

13:27:55 <oedipus> GJR: put @target in with strict limitations -- that is an option that should be a programmatic flag

Gregory Rosmaita: put @target in with strict limitations -- that is an option that should be a programmatic flag ←

13:28:05 <ShaneM> +1

Shane McCarron: +1 ←

13:28:11 <alessio> +1

Alessio Cartocci: +1 ←

13:28:13 <Steven> +1

Steven Pemberton: +1 ←

13:28:17 <oedipus> RM: if target has characteristics, what hooks can we provide what options are available

Roland Merrick: if target has characteristics, what hooks can we provide what options are available ←

13:29:00 <oedipus> SP: hear TH's problems with @target, also hear a lot of complaints that @target not in 1.1 so use 1.0

Steven Pemberton: hear TH's problems with @target, also hear a lot of complaints that @target not in 1.1 so use 1.0 ←

13:29:15 <oedipus> SP: thing i like about target is gives us control - can put conditions on its use

Steven Pemberton: thing i like about target is gives us control - can put conditions on its use ←

13:29:42 <oedipus> SP: can say, if use it user agent should do this and that -- XHTML Basic accepts but ignores it which is perfectly acceptable behavior

Steven Pemberton: can say, if use it user agent should do this and that -- XHTML Basic accepts but ignores it which is perfectly acceptable behavior ←

13:30:15 <oedipus> SP: serious and valuable use cases for @target - if in markup, is under control - if don't have it, people will use javascript to do it with all the rammifications of that

Steven Pemberton: serious and valuable use cases for @target - if in markup, is under control - if don't have it, people will use javascript to do it with all the rammifications of that ←

13:30:22 <oedipus> q?

q? ←

13:30:28 <oedipus> ack Steven

ack Steven ←

13:30:32 <oedipus> ack ShaneM

ack ShaneM ←

13:32:05 <oedipus> SM: UAAG exist - to extent they exist, don't know if UA devs pay any attention to or authors pay attention to or anyone pays attention to - no control over those guidelines, but do have control over our own spec; proposal in IRC to put limitations on target - need to define; value in doing that independent of decision vis a vis 1.1.; regardless of what we do with @target, poeplewil want to create new windows

Shane McCarron: UAAG exist - to extent they exist, don't know if UA devs pay any attention to or authors pay attention to or anyone pays attention to - no control over those guidelines, but do have control over our own spec; proposal in IRC to put limitations on target - need to define; value in doing that independent of decision vis a vis 1.1.; regardless of what we do with @target, poeplewil want to create new windows ←

13:32:27 <oedipus> SM: need to give authors a consistent way to do it, and provide documentation for UA devs

Shane McCarron: need to give authors a consistent way to do it, and provide documentation for UA devs ←

13:32:45 <oedipus> SM: people always going to be generating new windows - should put conditions on it

Shane McCarron: people always going to be generating new windows - should put conditions on it ←

13:33:28 <oedipus> TH: keeping it out is a signal as much as putting it back in - shouldn't be allowing authors to engage in improper behavior under cover of standards

Tina Holmboe: keeping it out is a signal as much as putting it back in - shouldn't be allowing authors to engage in improper behavior under cover of standards ←

13:33:36 <oedipus> SP: for people to use "as they see fit"

Steven Pemberton: for people to use "as they see fit" ←

13:33:56 <oedipus> TH: try other way around - put @target back in but say DO NOT use to open new windows

Tina Holmboe: try other way around - put @target back in but say DO NOT use to open new windows ←

13:34:29 <oedipus> SP: can point to UAAG and WCAG

Steven Pemberton: can point to UAAG and WCAG ←

13:34:58 <oedipus> GJR: win win - WCAG also against raw javascripted links and stripping chrome

Gregory Rosmaita: win win - WCAG also against raw javascripted links and stripping chrome ←

13:35:13 <oedipus> http://www.section508.gov/

http://www.section508.gov/ ←

13:35:46 <oedipus> RM: EU reference WCAG directly

Roland Merrick: EU reference WCAG directly ←

13:36:07 <oedipus> RM: procurment in most european countries and will become EU wide

Roland Merrick: procurment in most european countries and will become EU wide ←

13:36:24 <oedipus> Yam: if prohibit use of @target to open new window, then ok to include

Toshihiko Yamakami: if prohibit use of @target to open new window, then ok to include ←

13:36:56 <oedipus> Alessio: some government sites forced to use XHTML 1.0 Strict so cannot open new windows declaratively

Alessio Cartocci: some government sites forced to use XHTML 1.0 Strict so cannot open new windows declaratively ←

13:37:08 <oedipus> AC: people will use javascript to work around that though

Alessio Cartocci: people will use javascript to work around that though ←

13:37:12 <alessio> yes, the stanca act

Alessio Cartocci: yes, the stanca act ←

13:37:22 <oedipus> RM: conclusions?

Roland Merrick: conclusions? ←

13:37:57 <oedipus> RM: looked at target but where to be reintroduced and how?

Roland Merrick: looked at target but where to be reintroduced and how? ←

13:38:33 <oedipus> AC: @target for support of SVG elements - think need to point out how NOT to use @target

Alessio Cartocci: @target for support of SVG elements - think need to point out how NOT to use @target ←

13:38:58 <oedipus> AC: need to know interoperability with UAs; what do UAs need to do to warn user?

Alessio Cartocci: need to know interoperability with UAs; what do UAs need to do to warn user? ←

13:39:07 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/TR/uaag20

http://www.w3.org/TR/uaag20 ←

13:39:23 <oedipus> also a requirements document at http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA

also a requirements document at http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA ←

13:39:40 <alessio> yes, thanks gregory

Alessio Cartocci: yes, thanks gregory ←

13:39:50 <oedipus> SM: Yam, you felt 1.1 could be superset of Basic 1.1

Shane McCarron: Yam, you felt 1.1 could be superset of Basic 1.1 ←

13:39:58 <oedipus> Yam: starting point of discussion, i think

Toshihiko Yamakami: starting point of discussion, i think ←

13:40:06 <oedipus> Yam: do we need second edition?

Toshihiko Yamakami: do we need second edition? ←

13:40:20 <oedipus> SM: need to republish to add schema implementation - no extension,

Shane McCarron: need to republish to add schema implementation - no extension, ←

13:40:29 <oedipus> Yam: ambivalent

Toshihiko Yamakami: ambivalent ←

13:40:31 <Zakim> -Yam

Zakim IRC Bot: -Yam ←

13:40:43 <yamx> Oh, I kill the line by mistake, too.

Unknown yamx: Oh, I kill the line by mistake, too. ←

13:40:56 <oedipus> SP: don't care very much - 1.2 more interesting bit

Steven Pemberton: don't care very much - 1.2 more interesting bit ←

13:41:19 <oedipus> SP: if issue as PER, people would rationalize that @target and input mode should be in 1.0 as well

Steven Pemberton: if issue as PER, people would rationalize that @target and input mode should be in 1.0 as well ←

13:41:31 <Zakim> +??P1

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P1 ←

13:41:33 <oedipus> SP: only counter argument is that XHTML2 coming to fix these things

Steven Pemberton: only counter argument is that XHTML2 coming to fix these things ←

13:41:34 <yamx> I am back.

Unknown yamx: I am back. ←

13:41:40 <yamx> Zakim, ??P1 is yamx

Unknown yamx: Zakim, ??P1 is yamx ←

13:41:40 <Zakim> +yamx; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +yamx; got it ←

13:42:06 <oedipus> SP: similar with Print - family of MLs trhat arent' constrained to each other either way

Steven Pemberton: similar with Print - family of MLs trhat arent' constrained to each other either way ←

13:42:52 <oedipus> RM: second edition just add schema - or add schema and a couple of attributes?

Roland Merrick: second edition just add schema - or add schema and a couple of attributes? ←

13:43:07 <oedipus> SM: couldn't do in second edition

Shane McCarron: couldn't do in second edition ←

13:43:19 <oedipus> RM: 1.1 second edition that adds schema is only thing to do

Roland Merrick: 1.1 second edition that adds schema is only thing to do ←

13:43:25 <oedipus> SM: agree -- if want to reissue 1.1

Shane McCarron: agree -- if want to reISSUE-1.1 ←

13:43:38 <oedipus> SM: low-impact, so can do it logistically

Shane McCarron: low-impact, so can do it logistically ←

13:44:01 <oedipus> SP: unchanged 1.1 a better approach; 1.2 where expend energy on combining existing specifications

Steven Pemberton: unchanged 1.1 a better approach; 1.2 where expend energy on combining existing specifications ←

13:44:26 <oedipus> SM: Yam not to interested in 1.2 - should go directly to XHTML2 - need to have discussion on that

Shane McCarron: Yam not to interested in 1.2 - should go directly to XHTML2 - need to have discussion on that ←

13:44:42 <oedipus> RM: 1.1 take to second edition that simply adds schema and errata

Roland Merrick: 1.1 take to second edition that simply adds schema and errata ←

13:44:46 <yamx> fine

Unknown yamx: fine ←

13:45:02 <oedipus> SM: same thing with Print at same time

Shane McCarron: same thing with Print at same time ←

13:45:03 <yamx> no objection.

Unknown yamx: no objection. ←

13:45:08 <Steven> +1

Steven Pemberton: +1 ←

13:45:08 <oedipus> RM: objections?

Roland Merrick: objections? ←

13:45:10 <alessio> +1

Alessio Cartocci: +1 ←

13:45:13 <oedipus> GJR no objection

GJR no objection ←

13:45:19 <Steven> my +1 was to the 1.1 suggestion

Steven Pemberton: my +1 was to the 1.1 suggestion ←

13:45:38 <oedipus> RESOLVED: take XHTML 1.1 to Second Edition by simply adding Schema and Errata

RESOLVED: take XHTML 1.1 to Second Edition by simply adding Schema and Errata ←

13:45:39 <yamx> agree.

Unknown yamx: agree. ←

13:45:46 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

13:45:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/18-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/18-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←

13:46:07 <oedipus> RM: can we/should we do a 1.2 and if so why and what would be in it?

Roland Merrick: can we/should we do a 1.2 and if so why and what would be in it? ←

13:46:33 <oedipus> SP: created something people using not backed up by spec XHTML1.1+RDFa

Steven Pemberton: created something people using not backed up by spec XHTML1.1+RDFa ←

13:46:39 <oedipus> SM: references DTD

Shane McCarron: references DTD ←

13:46:50 <oedipus> SP: oh - then it's not as bad as i thought

Steven Pemberton: oh - then it's not as bad as i thought ←

13:47:15 <oedipus> SP: option 1 is take all specs being produced seperately as part of m12n

Steven Pemberton: option 1 is take all specs being produced seperately as part of m12n ←

13:47:18 <oedipus> SM: ARIA

Shane McCarron: ARIA ←

13:47:20 <oedipus> RM: yes

Roland Merrick: yes ←

13:47:30 <ShaneM> XHTML+RDFa is defined at http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-rdfa-syntax-20080616/#s_xhtmlrdfa

Shane McCarron: XHTML+RDFa is defined at http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-rdfa-syntax-20080616/#s_xhtmlrdfa ←

13:47:48 <oedipus> SP: wrap all those up into a language called XHTML 1.2 so people can refer to markup language that uses these things

Steven Pemberton: wrap all those up into a language called XHTML 1.2 so people can refer to markup language that uses these things ←

13:47:57 <oedipus> SP: another reason, makes step to XHTML2 that much smaller

Steven Pemberton: another reason, makes step to XHTML2 that much smaller ←

13:48:22 <oedipus> SP: community needs to be led step-by-step to XHTML2 rather than just being presented with it - get used to concepts

Steven Pemberton: community needs to be led step-by-step to XHTML2 rather than just being presented with it - get used to concepts ←

13:48:45 <oedipus> RM: XML Events and ????

Roland Merrick: XML Events and ???? ←

13:49:06 <oedipus> SP: step to XHTML2 is XForms, HREF everywhere and SRC everywhere

Steven Pemberton: step to XHTML2 is XForms, HREF everywhere and SRC everywhere ←

13:49:35 <oedipus> SP: on the other hand, people out there already using XHTML11+ without doctype - not backed up by single spec, but rather widely used

Steven Pemberton: on the other hand, people out there already using XHTML11+ without doctype - not backed up by single spec, but rather widely used ←

13:49:47 <oedipus> SP: another option - do it all at one go

Steven Pemberton: another option - do it all at one go ←

13:50:04 <ShaneM> I think stepping directly to XForms for xhtml 1.2 would be too far.

Shane McCarron: I think stepping directly to XForms for xhtml 1.2 would be too far. ←

13:51:04 <oedipus> RM: how to introduce Access, ARIA, Role as first class citizen and validatable -- small step but huge gain - point release rationale is to add a11y features -- good advertising

Roland Merrick: how to introduce Access, ARIA, Role as first class citizen and validatable -- small step but huge gain - point release rationale is to add a11y features -- good advertising ←

13:51:07 <oedipus> plus 1

plus 1 ←

13:51:51 <oedipus> SM: anything put into XHTML 1.2 should work in browsers today

Shane McCarron: anything put into XHTML 1.2 should work in browsers today ←

13:51:58 <oedipus> RM: agree with that

Roland Merrick: agree with that ←

13:52:07 <alessio> idem

Alessio Cartocci: idem ←

13:52:09 <oedipus> SP: wou ld mean not including Access

Steven Pemberton: wou ld mean not including Access ←

13:52:15 <oedipus> RM: right

Roland Merrick: right ←

13:52:20 <oedipus> SM: yep

Shane McCarron: yep ←

13:52:44 <oedipus> SP: so 2 options there: 1. only bit remaining to be implemented

Steven Pemberton: so 2 options there: 1. only bit remaining to be implemented ←

13:52:58 <ShaneM> XHTML2 also has meta and link everywhere

Shane McCarron: XHTML2 also has meta and link everywhere ←

13:53:02 <oedipus> SP: could make effor to do implementation of Access in javascript

Steven Pemberton: could make effor to do implementation of Access in javascript ←

13:53:07 <oedipus> SM: started a few weeks ago

Shane McCarron: started a few weeks ago ←

13:53:18 <oedipus> GJR: PF needs to submit support for Access to HTML5

Gregory Rosmaita: PF needs to submit support for Access to HTML5 ←

13:53:24 <oedipus> GJR: was in initial request to HTML5

Gregory Rosmaita: was in initial request to HTML5 ←

13:53:36 <alessio> I'd done last year a test for Access

Alessio Cartocci: I'd done last year a test for Access ←

13:53:51 <oedipus> RM: XML Events - adding @implements on SCRIPT

Roland Merrick: XML Events - adding @implements on SCRIPT ←

13:53:58 <oedipus> SP: no problem because works already

Steven Pemberton: no problem because works already ←

13:54:00 <oedipus> SM: yes

Shane McCarron: yes ←

13:54:04 <oedipus> GJR: huge plus 1

Gregory Rosmaita: huge plus 1 ←

13:54:14 <oedipus> SM: not all XML Events

Shane McCarron: not all XML Events ←

13:54:23 <oedipus> RM: no, just to enable @implements feature

Roland Merrick: no, just to enable @implements feature ←

13:55:21 <oedipus> RM: proposal for release and its content

Roland Merrick: proposal for release and its content ←

13:55:33 <oedipus> SM: yes, and a timetable - dependencies on things not yet completed

Shane McCarron: yes, and a timetable - dependencies on things not yet completed ←

13:56:35 <oedipus> RM: agree in principle to create proposal for XHTML 1.2 including @implements

Roland Merrick: agree in principle to create proposal for XHTML 1.2 including @implements ←

13:57:00 <oedipus> Yam: don't object, but W3C may - agree under condition to make transition market for XML short, not long

Toshihiko Yamakami: don't object, but W3C may - agree under condition to make transition market for XHTML2 short, not long ←

13:57:03 <Steven> oedipus, alessio, please add agreemetns like that to the record!

Steven Pemberton: oedipus, alessio, please add agreemetns like that to the record! ←

13:57:05 <oedipus> RM: most definitely

Roland Merrick: most definitely ←

13:57:17 <oedipus> GJR: @implements is going to be VERY useful

Gregory Rosmaita: @implements is going to be VERY useful ←

13:57:20 <Steven> @implements++

Steven Pemberton: @implements++ ←

13:57:38 <yamx> s/XML/XHTML2/

13:58:03 <oedipus> RESOLVED: Proposal for XHTML 1.2 - Content and Timescale as outlined here

RESOLVED: Proposal for XHTML 1.2 - Content and Timescale as outlined here ←

13:58:22 <oedipus> ACTION: Steven - draft proposal for XHTML 1.2 - Content and Timescale

ACTION: Steven - draft proposal for XHTML 1.2 - Content and Timescale ←

13:58:29 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

13:58:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/18-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/18-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←

13:58:45 <yamx> It is 23:00 in Japan.

Unknown yamx: It is 23:00 in Japan. ←

13:58:49 <oedipus> RM: good discussion- made progress

Roland Merrick: good discussion- made progress ←

13:59:12 <yamx> OK.

Unknown yamx: OK. ←

13:59:14 <oedipus> RM: XML Events 2 and Features after break?

Roland Merrick: XML Events 2 and Features after break? ←

13:59:18 <Zakim> -ShaneM

Zakim IRC Bot: -ShaneM ←

13:59:19 <yamx> see you later.

Unknown yamx: see you later. ←

13:59:21 <Zakim> -Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: -Steven ←

13:59:22 <oedipus> ===== 15 MINUTE BREAK ======

6. 15 MINUTE BREAK ======

13:59:23 <Zakim> -Tina

Zakim IRC Bot: -Tina ←

13:59:25 <Zakim> -Alessio

Zakim IRC Bot: -Alessio ←

13:59:26 <Zakim> -yamx

Zakim IRC Bot: -yamx ←

13:59:39 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita

Zakim IRC Bot: -Gregory_Rosmaita ←

14:15:04 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita

(No events recorded for 15 minutes)

Zakim IRC Bot: +Gregory_Rosmaita ←

14:15:49 <Zakim> +??P6

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P6 ←

14:16:11 <yamx> zakim, ??p6 is yamx

Unknown yamx: zakim, ??p6 is yamx ←

14:16:11 <Zakim> +yamx; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +yamx; got it ←

14:16:27 <oedipus> zakim, mute Gregory_Rosmaita

zakim, mute Gregory_Rosmaita ←

14:16:27 <Zakim> Gregory_Rosmaita should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Gregory_Rosmaita should now be muted ←

14:17:03 <Zakim> +ShaneM

Zakim IRC Bot: +ShaneM ←

14:18:48 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller] ←

14:18:54 <alessio> zakim, IPcaller is Alessio

Alessio Cartocci: zakim, IPcaller is Alessio ←

14:18:54 <Zakim> +Alessio; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Alessio; got it ←

14:19:01 <oedipus> TOPIC: XML Events 2

7. XML Events 2

14:19:03 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xml-events-20080508/

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xml-events-20080508/ ←

14:19:04 <Zakim> +Tina

Zakim IRC Bot: +Tina ←

14:19:46 <oedipus> zakim, unmute me

zakim, unmute me ←

14:19:46 <Zakim> sorry, oedipus, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, oedipus, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you ←

14:19:52 <oedipus> zakim, unmute Gregory_Rosmaita

zakim, unmute Gregory_Rosmaita ←

14:19:52 <Zakim> Gregory_Rosmaita should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Gregory_Rosmaita should no longer be muted ←

14:21:09 <oedipus> zakim, mute Gregory_Rosmaita

zakim, mute Gregory_Rosmaita ←

14:21:09 <Zakim> Gregory_Rosmaita should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Gregory_Rosmaita should now be muted ←

14:21:33 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617

Steven Pemberton: zakim, dial steven-617 ←

14:21:33 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven; the call is being made ←

14:21:35 <Zakim> +Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: +Steven ←

14:21:49 <oedipus> RM: XML Events 2 - http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xml-events-20080508/

Roland Merrick: XML Events 2 - http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xml-events-20080508/ ←

14:22:05 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xml-events-20080508/xml-events-rec-diff.html

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xml-events-20080508/xml-events-rec-diff.html ←

14:22:23 <oedipus> RM: number of updates since last face2face - would like to get to LC - what needs to be done?

Roland Merrick: number of updates since last face2face - would like to get to LC - what needs to be done? ←

14:22:47 <oedipus> RM: did see some comments in XForms group, but don't know what happened to them - their status

Roland Merrick: did see some comments in XForms group, but don't know what happened to them - their status ←

14:23:02 <oedipus> RM: comments sent to XForms group, but not XHTML2 list(s)

Roland Merrick: comments sent to XForms group, but not XHTML2 list(s) ←

14:23:08 <oedipus> SP: researches the matter

Steven Pemberton: researches the matter ←

14:23:23 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/2008/06/11-forms-minutes.html#item03

Steven Pemberton: http://www.w3.org/2008/06/11-forms-minutes.html#item03 ←

14:23:29 <oedipus> RM: felt XML Events doc should be more self contained

Roland Merrick: felt XML Events doc should be more self contained ←

14:23:46 <oedipus> RM: people shouldn't have to go to DOM3 spec, for instance charlie commented

Roland Merrick: people shouldn't have to go to DOM3 spec, for instance charlie commented ←

14:24:03 <oedipus> SP: long discussion but no action item; most comments editorial, spec overall good

Steven Pemberton: long discussion but no action item; most comments editorial, spec overall good ←

14:24:16 <oedipus> SP: will ping him to send comments to us

Steven Pemberton: will ping him to send comments to us ←

14:24:24 <oedipus> RM: editorial things not too much of a problem

Roland Merrick: editorial things not too much of a problem ←

14:24:45 <oedipus> RM: start with abstract

Roland Merrick: start with abstract ←

14:25:11 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xml-events-20080508/#s_intro

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xml-events-20080508/#s_intro ←

14:25:29 <oedipus> RM: differences from DOM3 and @target

Roland Merrick: differences from DOM3 and @target ←

14:25:47 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xml-events-20080508/#s_event_module_conformance

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xml-events-20080508/#s_event_module_conformance ←

14:25:54 <oedipus> RM: conformance - not much change at all

Roland Merrick: conformance - not much change at all ←

14:26:12 <oedipus> RM: addition was to allow chameleon version should ML allow

Roland Merrick: addition was to allow chameleon version should ML allow ←

14:26:37 <oedipus> SM: what does this mean given our new understanding of "null namespace"?

Shane McCarron: what does this mean given our new understanding of "null namespace"? ←

14:26:48 <oedipus> SM: bring in Events Module?

Shane McCarron: bring in Events Module? ←

14:26:57 <oedipus> SP: not sure have new understanding of "null namespace"

Steven Pemberton: not sure have new understanding of "null namespace" ←

14:27:12 <oedipus> SP: terminology used in certain circles not backed by any spec

Steven Pemberton: terminology used in certain circles not backed by any spec ←

14:27:24 <oedipus> SM: lets call it "no namespace"

Shane McCarron: lets call it "no namespace" ←

14:27:49 <oedipus> SM: are we suggesting ok to bring XML Events into a language and use XML Event attributes in "no namespace"

Shane McCarron: are we suggesting ok to bring XML Events into a language and use XML Event attributes in "no namespace" ←

14:28:06 <oedipus> RM: unless someone uses chameleon, including events

Roland Merrick: unless someone uses chameleon, including events ←

14:28:37 <oedipus> SP: not syntaxically the same, but semantically the same

Steven Pemberton: not syntaxically the same, but semantically the same ←

14:28:48 <oedipus> SM: don't access from DOM in same way

Shane McCarron: don't access from DOM in same way ←

14:29:57 <oedipus> SM: in a Compound Document, HTML uses Events in chameleon form - bring into HTML elements with no qualifiers, but SVG does not - in a Compound Document, do we expect the action attribute or event attribute will have same semantic on HTML p element as ???

Shane McCarron: in a Compound Document, HTML uses Events in chameleon form - bring into HTML elements with no qualifiers, but SVG does not - in a Compound Document, do we expect the action attribute or event attribute will have same semantic on HTML p element as ev:event="circle" ←

14:30:32 <Steven> We will write <a href="..."><action event="DOMActivate"...>

Steven Pemberton: We will write <a href="..."><action event="DOMActivate"...> ←

14:30:43 <Steven> instead of

Steven Pemberton: instead of ←

14:31:19 <Steven> this <a href="..."><action ev:event="DOMActivate"...>

Steven Pemberton: this <a href="..."><action ev:event="DOMActivate"...> ←

14:31:37 <oedipus> s/???/ev:event="circle"

14:31:38 <Steven> but the meaning will be the same

Steven Pemberton: but the meaning will be the same ←

14:31:50 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

14:31:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/18-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/18-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←

14:32:42 <Steven> We should coordiante with Forms WG on this

Steven Pemberton: We should coordinate with Forms WG on this ←

14:32:55 <Steven> s/ante/nate/

14:32:56 <oedipus> RM: been discussed at forms WG meetings i believe

Roland Merrick: been discussed at forms WG meetings i believe ←

14:33:08 <oedipus> RM: namespaces discussed in Forms f2f last week?

Roland Merrick: namespaces discussed in Forms f2f last week? ←

14:33:22 <oedipus> SP: consults minutes from Forms f2f

Steven Pemberton: consults minutes from Forms f2f ←

14:34:30 <oedipus> SP: not in detail

Steven Pemberton: not in detail ←

14:34:44 <oedipus> RM: specifics of what is in XML Events Module

Roland Merrick: specifics of what is in XML Events Module ←

14:34:51 <oedipus> RM: listener element

Roland Merrick: listener element ←

14:35:10 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xml-events-20080508/#section-listener-element

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xml-events-20080508/#section-listener-element ←

14:35:21 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xml-events-20080508/#section-listener-observer

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xml-events-20080508/#section-listener-observer ←

14:35:25 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xml-events-20080508/#section-listener-handler

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xml-events-20080508/#section-listener-handler ←

14:35:34 <oedipus> RM: diff with DOM3 is QNames?

Roland Merrick: diff with DOM3 is QNames? ←

14:35:38 <oedipus> SM: essential difference

Shane McCarron: essential difference ←

14:35:47 <oedipus> RM: observer element

Roland Merrick: observer element ←

14:35:56 <oedipus> RM: handler element

Roland Merrick: handler element ←

14:36:11 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xml-events-20080508/#s_handler_module_elements

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xml-events-20080508/#s_handler_module_elements ←

14:36:17 <oedipus> RM: default is target

Roland Merrick: default is target ←

14:36:34 <oedipus> RM: event propogates or continues - default should be performed or not

Roland Merrick: event propogates or continues - default should be performed or not ←

14:36:47 <oedipus> RM: not too diff from XML Events 1 - same principle

Roland Merrick: not too diff from XML Events 1 - same principle ←

14:37:09 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xml-events-20080508/#sec_3.2.1.

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xml-events-20080508/#sec_3.2.1. ←

14:37:20 <oedipus> attributes for observer

attributes for observer ←

14:37:39 <oedipus> RM: can add attribute to handler itself - http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xml-events-20080508/#section-attributedefaulting

Roland Merrick: can add attribute to handler itself - http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xml-events-20080508/#section-attributedefaulting ←

14:37:55 <oedipus> RM: not much different from XML Events 1 - comments?

Roland Merrick: not much different from XML Events 1 - comments? ←

14:38:05 <alessio> no

Alessio Cartocci: no ←

14:38:08 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xml-events-20080508/#s_handler_module_elements

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xml-events-20080508/#s_handler_module_elements ←

14:38:14 <oedipus> RM: XML Handlers

Roland Merrick: XML Handlers ←

14:38:21 <oedipus> action element: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xml-events-20080508/#section-action-element

action element: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xml-events-20080508/#section-action-element ←

14:38:49 <oedipus> RM: similar to XForms, can use as container for potential actions

Roland Merrick: similar to XForms, can use as container for potential actions ←

14:39:10 <oedipus> RM: condition - only true if XPath expression true

Roland Merrick: condition - only true if XPath expression true ←

14:39:20 <oedipus> RM: can finally have xml:id

Roland Merrick: can finally have xml:id ←

14:39:22 <Steven> action 4=

Steven Pemberton: ACTION-4= ←

14:39:56 <oedipus> RM: script element - http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xml-events-20080508/#section-script-element

Roland Merrick: script element - http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xml-events-20080508/#section-script-element ←

14:40:09 <oedipus> RM: refined SCRIPT - important diff is @implements

Roland Merrick: refined SCRIPT - important diff is @implements ←

14:40:41 <oedipus> RM: will discuss @implements in detail later

Roland Merrick: will discuss @implements in detail later ←

14:40:52 <oedipus> the dispatch element: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xml-events-20080508/#section-dispatchEvent-element

the dispatch element: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xml-events-20080508/#section-dispatchEvent-element ←

14:41:17 <oedipus> addEventListener: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xml-events-20080508/#section-addEventListener-element

Scribe problem: the name 'addEventListener' does not match any of the 22 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alessio Cartocci Alexander Graf Christina Bottomley Elias Torres Gerrie Shults Gregory Rosmaita John Kugelman Luca Mascaro Mark Birbeck Masataka Yakura Michael Rawling Richard Schwerdtfeger Roland Merrick Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer Shane McCarron Steven Pemberton Susan Borgrink Tina Holmboe Toshihiko Yamakami Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown addEventListener: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xml-events-20080508/#section-addEventListener-element ←

14:41:31 <oedipus> RM: very similar - can register eventListener

Roland Merrick: very similar - can register eventListener ←

14:41:42 <oedipus> RM: can stop bubbling

Roland Merrick: can stop bubbling ←

14:41:50 <oedipus> RM: can prevent default defined for event

Roland Merrick: can prevent default defined for event ←

14:41:54 <oedipus> RM: straightforward

Roland Merrick: straightforward ←

14:42:02 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xml-events-20080508/#section-removeEventListener-element

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xml-events-20080508/#section-removeEventListener-element ←

14:42:08 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xml-events-20080508/#section-stopPropagation-element

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xml-events-20080508/#section-stopPropagation-element ←

14:42:12 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xml-events-20080508/#section-preventDefault-element

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xml-events-20080508/#section-preventDefault-element ←

14:42:20 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xml-events-20080508/#section-event-naming

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xml-events-20080508/#section-event-naming ←

14:42:30 <oedipus> RM: XPath Expressions: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xml-events-20080508/#section-xpath-expressions

Roland Merrick: XPath Expressions: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xml-events-20080508/#section-xpath-expressions ←

14:42:37 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xml-events-20080508/#xpath-function-library

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xml-events-20080508/#xpath-function-library ←

14:42:50 <oedipus> RM: XPath to describe context information (XPath context)

Roland Merrick: XPath to describe context information (XPath context) ←

14:43:01 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xml-events-20080508/#xpath-event-function

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xml-events-20080508/#xpath-event-function ←

14:43:14 <oedipus> RM: @implements

Roland Merrick: @implements ←

14:43:30 <oedipus> RM: optional - this script should only be loaded if UA doesn't have implementation of feature

Roland Merrick: optional - this script should only be loaded if UA doesn't have implementation of feature ←

14:43:43 <oedipus> RM: key thing is how to describe features

Roland Merrick: key thing is how to describe features ←

14:44:06 <oedipus> RM: safe URI or safe CURIE ok, but how to define features

Roland Merrick: safe URI or safe CURIE ok, but how to define features ←

14:44:25 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xml-events-20080508/#xpath-event-function - names event and where dispatched to

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xml-events-20080508/#xpath-event-function - names event and where dispatched to ←

14:44:44 <oedipus> RM: events predefined by DOM3, can create own events and dispatch those

Roland Merrick: events predefined by DOM3, can create own events and dispatch those ←

14:44:54 <oedipus> RM: XPath Expressions ahs extra note

Roland Merrick: XPath Expressions ahs extra note ←

14:45:18 <oedipus> RM: not setting particular context mode

Roland Merrick: not setting particular context mode ←

14:45:48 <oedipus> RM :what necessary to define context - what would someone find useful - don't currently have idea of context

RM :what necessary to define context - what would someone find useful - don't currently have idea of context ←

14:46:08 <oedipus> RM: 6.1.1.XPath event Function

Roland Merrick: 6.1.1.XPath event Function ←

14:46:24 <oedipus> RM: "Function event returns the value of a property of the current event object, as determined by the string argument. "

Roland Merrick: "Function event returns the value of a property of the current event object, as determined by the string argument. " ←

14:46:49 <oedipus> RM: identify feature for @implements - URI but represents what?

Roland Merrick: identify feature for @implements - URI but represents what? ←

14:47:03 <oedipus> RM: comments? observations? questions?

Roland Merrick: comments? observations? questions? ←

14:47:16 <oedipus> SP: anticipate fight over XPath

Steven Pemberton: anticipate fight over XPath ←

14:47:29 <oedipus> SP: last version didn't have XPath, now it is required

Steven Pemberton: last version didn't have XPath, now it is required ←

14:47:59 <oedipus> SP: XBL2 fight over XPath or CSS - in end hixie said "do CSS or i take spec to whatwg and do it there"

Steven Pemberton: XBL2 fight over XPath or CSS - in end hixie said "do CSS or i take spec to whatwg and do it there" ←

14:48:39 <oedipus> SM: some way to do that doesn't require XPath?

Shane McCarron: some way to do that doesn't require XPath? ←

14:48:50 <oedipus> SM: conditionals without way of referencing?

Shane McCarron: conditionals without way of referencing? ←

14:48:57 <oedipus> RM: could do in script

Roland Merrick: could do in script ←

14:49:16 <oedipus> RM: definition of what conditionals are

Roland Merrick: definition of what conditionals are ←

14:49:30 <oedipus> SP: conditionals need to be in some langauge

Steven Pemberton: conditionals need to be in some langauge ←

14:49:43 <oedipus> SP: maybe call section 6 "Expressions"

Steven Pemberton: maybe call section 6 "Expressions" ←

14:49:56 <oedipus> SP: expressions that happen to be the ones in XPath

Steven Pemberton: expressions that happen to be the ones in XPath ←

14:50:16 <oedipus> SP: not asking to implement XPath, but syntax derived from XPath - serious difference

Steven Pemberton: not asking to implement XPath, but syntax derived from XPath - serious difference ←

14:50:30 <oedipus> RM: what is the core we need? what subset of XPath

Roland Merrick: what is the core we need? what subset of XPath ←

14:50:40 <oedipus> RM: not a big dependency on XPath

Roland Merrick: not a big dependency on XPath ←

14:51:17 <oedipus> SM: 2 modules - XML Events and XML Handlers - do we envision world where one can have handlers without events

Shane McCarron: 2 modules - XML Events and XML Handlers - do we envision world where one can have handlers without events ←

14:51:27 <oedipus> SP: people write scripts today without XML Events

Steven Pemberton: people write scripts today without XML Events ←

14:51:47 <oedipus> SM: XML Handler Module needs all of what is defined in XML Events

Shane McCarron: XML Handler Module needs all of what is defined in XML Events ←

14:51:57 <oedipus> RM: except for SCRIPT element

Roland Merrick: except for SCRIPT element ←

14:51:59 <oedipus> SM: true

Shane McCarron: true ←

14:52:37 <oedipus> SM: might be useful to have SCRIPT and @implements independent of XML Events - applies to Handlers as well

Shane McCarron: might be useful to have SCRIPT and @implements independent of XML Events - applies to Handlers as well ←

14:52:52 <Steven> +1

Steven Pemberton: +1 ←

14:52:59 <alessio> +1

Alessio Cartocci: +1 ←

14:53:01 <oedipus> SM: wonder if shouldn't have a module in specificiation - XML Events, Handler Element, Script ELement

Shane McCarron: wonder if shouldn't have a module in specificiation - XML Events, Handler Element, Script ELement ←

14:53:07 <oedipus> plus 1

plus 1 ←

14:53:16 <oedipus> RM: agree

Roland Merrick: agree ←

14:53:38 <oedipus> RM: a convenience that in one document, but they are separate --

Roland Merrick: a convenience that in one document, but they are separate -- ←

14:53:58 <oedipus> SM: imagin e there is a Script Module without dependency on other 2 modules

Shane McCarron: imagin e there is a Script Module without dependency on other 2 modules ←

14:54:02 <oedipus> RM: does not appear so

Roland Merrick: does not appear so ←

14:54:15 <oedipus> SM: new Handler module without new Events module doesn't make sense

Shane McCarron: new Handler module without new Events module doesn't make sense ←

14:54:31 <oedipus> RM: some actions could be useful without events

Roland Merrick: some actions could be useful without events ←

14:54:54 <oedipus> SM: if anything has dependency on events, then depenency on events module

Shane McCarron: if anything has dependency on events, then depenency on events module ←

14:54:56 <oedipus> RM: yes

Roland Merrick: yes ←

14:55:08 <oedipus> RM: only exception is script - no dependence on other 2

Roland Merrick: only exception is script - no dependence on other 2 ←

14:55:14 <oedipus> SM: then separate it out

Shane McCarron: then separate it out ←

14:55:30 <oedipus> SM: make sense to have XML Events Module without XML Handlers Module?

Shane McCarron: make sense to have XML Events Module without XML Handlers Module? ←

14:55:51 <oedipus> RM: XML Events 1 are used today and there are no handlers, so must have some value without handlers

Roland Merrick: XML Events 1 are used today and there are no handlers, so must have some value without handlers ←

14:56:20 <oedipus> SP: didn't define handlers because wanted people to use handlers already had on XML Events

Steven Pemberton: didn't define handlers because wanted people to use handlers already had on XML Events ←

14:56:41 <oedipus> SM: require people to use XML Events Module AND XML Handlers Modlue?

Shane McCarron: require people to use XML Events Module AND XML Handlers Modlue? ←

14:56:43 <oedipus> SP: no

Steven Pemberton: no ←

14:56:47 <oedipus> SM: good

Shane McCarron: good ←

14:57:29 <oedipus> RM: proposal: split into 3 modules - XML Events, XML Handlers, and Script plus change in wording about use of XPath

Roland Merrick: proposal: split into 3 modules - XML Events, XML Handlers, and Script plus change in wording about use of XPath ←

14:57:36 <oedipus> SM: minor editorial stuff too

Shane McCarron: minor editorial stuff too ←

14:58:27 <oedipus> RESOLVED: will break into 3 Modules: XML Events Module, XML Handlers Module, and Script Module

RESOLVED: will break into 3 Modules: XML Events Module, XML Handlers Module, and Script Module ←

14:58:43 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

14:58:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/18-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/18-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←

14:58:57 <oedipus> SM: accept Yam's proposal

Shane McCarron: accept Yam's proposal ←

14:59:15 <oedipus> Yam: change attribution/acknowledgement

Toshihiko Yamakami: change attribution/acknowledgement ←

14:59:27 <oedipus> RM: needs to describe who we are today and who is doing the work today

Roland Merrick: needs to describe who we are today and who is doing the work today ←

15:00:14 <oedipus> TOPIC: Features of XML Events

8. Feature identification in of XML Events

15:00:59 <oedipus> RM: namespaces - should be dealing with someting more fine grained in namespace

Roland Merrick: namespaces - should be dealing with someting more fine grained in namespace ←

15:01:17 <oedipus> RM: there is another namespace option

Roland Merrick: there is another namespace option ←

15:01:17 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita

Zakim IRC Bot: -Gregory_Rosmaita ←

15:01:20 <Steven> s/Features/Feature identification in/

15:01:31 <Steven> scribe: Steven

(Scribe set to Steven Pemberton)

15:01:57 <Steven> RM: So a namespace is rather too coarse grain to define the features that will be implemented

Roland Merrick: So a namespace is rather too coarse grain to define the features that will be implemented ←

15:02:24 <Steven> SM: The spec says CURIEs are used for identification

Shane McCarron: The spec says CURIEs are used for identification ←

15:02:37 <Steven> ... the CURIE spec allows for reserved values

... the CURIE spec allows for reserved values ←

15:03:07 <Steven> ... but doesn't allow for multiple default prefixes

... but doesn't allow for multiple default prefixes ←

15:03:25 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita

Zakim IRC Bot: +Gregory_Rosmaita ←

15:04:19 <Steven> ... so if we are to define a separate vocab document, it *can't* be another default vocab

... so if we are to define a separate vocab document, it *can't* be another default vocab ←

15:04:35 <Steven> implements="m12n:hrefeverywhere"

implements="m12n:hrefeverywhere" ←

15:04:59 <Steven> SM: So you may as well just use the URI

Shane McCarron: So you may as well just use the URI ←

15:05:03 <oedipus> thought was supposed to be able to use URI

Gregory Rosmaita: thought was supposed to be able to use URI ←

15:05:29 <Steven> RM: You're only going to write this once, so it isn't a major problem having to write it

Roland Merrick: You're only going to write this once, so it isn't a major problem having to write it ←

15:05:36 <ShaneM> http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/modules#FEATURE

Shane McCarron: http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/modules#FEATURE ←

15:05:48 <Steven> perfick

perfick ←

15:06:02 <Steven> SM: That was what I had in mind

Shane McCarron: That was what I had in mind ←

15:06:05 <Steven> RM: Me too

Roland Merrick: Me too ←

15:06:42 <Steven> 10 01http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/modules#i18n

10 01http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/modules#i18n ←

15:07:04 <Steven> RM: So if I implemented XML Events 2, what would it say?

Roland Merrick: So if I implemented XML Events 2, what would it say? ←

15:07:28 <ShaneM> http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/features#xmlevents-2

Shane McCarron: http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/features#xmlevents-2 ←

15:07:41 <oedipus> implements="m12n:events m12n:handlers" ?

Gregory Rosmaita: implements="m12n:events m12n:handlers" ? ←

15:07:50 <Steven> SM: Right, so we mneed to define the term for each module

Shane McCarron: Right, so we need to define the term for each module ←

15:08:14 <Steven> s/mneed/need/

15:08:32 <Steven> RM: Can we agregate features?

Roland Merrick: Can we agregate features? ←

15:08:42 <Steven> Steven: I hope so; eg XForms

Steven Pemberton: I hope so; eg XForms ←

15:08:48 <Steven> ... or even XHTML2

... or even XHTML2 ←

15:08:52 <oedipus> me too

Gregory Rosmaita: me too ←

15:10:21 <oedipus> RM: core - first features XML Events

Roland Merrick: core - first features XML Events [ Scribe Assist by Gregory Rosmaita ] ←

15:10:35 <oedipus> RM: XML Events not in xmlns

Roland Merrick: XML Events not in xmlns [ Scribe Assist by Gregory Rosmaita ] ←

15:10:43 <Steven> scribe: oedipus

(Scribe set to Gregory Rosmaita)

15:10:47 <oedipus> RM: URI probablly different

Roland Merrick: URI probablly different ←

15:10:58 <oedipus> SM: keep conflating namespaces and vocabulary spaces

Shane McCarron: keep conflating namespaces and vocabulary spaces ←

15:10:58 <ShaneM> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/features#xmlevents-2

Shane McCarron: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/features#xmlevents-2 ←

15:11:18 <Zakim> -Alessio

Zakim IRC Bot: -Alessio ←

15:11:20 <oedipus> RM: would break linkage to NS

Roland Merrick: would break linkage to NS ←

15:11:45 <oedipus> RM: using namespace name suggest something that isn't true - or a linkage that isn't there

Roland Merrick: using namespace name suggest something that isn't true - or a linkage that isn't there ←

15:12:02 <oedipus> SM: in feature space can put anywhere we want, but makes sense to coollect in single place

Shane McCarron: in feature space can put anywhere we want, but makes sense to coollect in single place ←

15:12:10 <Zakim> +??P2

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P2 ←

15:12:15 <alessio> zakim, ??P2 is Alessio

Alessio Cartocci: zakim, ??P2 is Alessio ←

15:12:15 <Zakim> +Alessio; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Alessio; got it ←

15:12:25 <oedipus> SM: is XForms in this document or will they incorporate?

Shane McCarron: is XForms in this document or will they incorporate? ←

15:12:35 <oedipus> RM: can go anywhere URI can point to

Roland Merrick: can go anywhere URI can point to ←

15:13:16 <ShaneM> ACTION: Shane create an initial features document that includes the features from XML Events 2.

ACTION: Shane create an initial features document that includes the features from XML Events 2. ←

15:13:32 <oedipus> GJR: point about conflating namespaces and vocab spaces very pertinent (for building expert handlers)

Gregory Rosmaita: point about conflating namespaces and vocab spaces very pertinent (for building expert handlers) ←

15:13:45 <oedipus> SM: should point to XML Events - so good BP in document

Shane McCarron: should point to XML Events - so good BP in document ←

15:14:06 <oedipus> RM: in script element, could show how to point to other parts of document -- could in fact, implement itself

Roland Merrick: in script element, could show how to point to other parts of document -- could in fact, implement itself ←

15:14:11 <oedipus> RM: could be bootstrapped in

Roland Merrick: could be bootstrapped in ←

15:14:30 <oedipus> SM: could.... but not sure for first version

Shane McCarron: could.... but not sure for first version ←

15:14:38 <oedipus> RM: showing how implments handler events

Roland Merrick: showing how implments handler events ←

15:14:58 <oedipus> RM: any other thoughts on this topic?

Roland Merrick: any other thoughts on this topic? ←

15:15:12 <oedipus> SP: action shane has is list names of features and module feature represents, right?

Steven Pemberton: action shane has is list names of features and module feature represents, right? ←

15:15:27 <oedipus> RM: assign names to features and make clear that named features are modules in question

Roland Merrick: assign names to features and make clear that named features are modules in question ←

15:15:46 <oedipus> SM: have a vision of it - linked together and back to base spec

Shane McCarron: have a vision of it - linked together and back to base spec ←

15:16:05 <oedipus> SM: want meaningful triples - should have best practices

Shane McCarron: want meaningful triples - should have best practices ←

15:16:16 <oedipus> RM: not just in spec, but in position to develop solution that does it

Roland Merrick: not just in spec, but in position to develop solution that does it ←

15:16:19 <oedipus> SM: definitely

Shane McCarron: definitely ←

15:16:31 <oedipus> RM: other comments?

Roland Merrick: other comments? ←

15:16:34 <yamx> no from me.

Unknown yamx: no from me. ←

15:16:52 <oedipus> RM: conclude this topic - anything else to go back over from earlier today?

Roland Merrick: conclude this topic - anything else to go back over from earlier today? ←

15:17:09 <oedipus> RM: have some catch-up time tomorrow morning

Roland Merrick: have some catch-up time tomorrow morning ←

15:18:06 <oedipus> Yam: yesterday mark mentioned HTML5 group have security issues - relevant for any ML - if devise good mechansim for wwindow shouold be seperate spec

Toshihiko Yamakami: yesterday mark mentioned HTML5 group have security issues - relevant for any ML - if devise good mechansim for wwindow shouold be seperate spec ←

15:19:38 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/2008/06/17-xhtml-minutes.html

http://www.w3.org/2008/06/17-xhtml-minutes.html ←

15:19:58 <Roland> http://www.w3.org/2008/06/17-xhtml-minutes.html#action02

Roland Merrick: ACTION-02">http://www.w3.org/2008/06/17-xhtml-minutes.html#ACTION-02 ←

15:20:00 <oedipus> RM: action number 2 - immediately after mark's comments

Roland Merrick: action number 2 - immediately after mark's comments ←

15:20:01 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/2008/06/17-xhtml-minutes.html#action02

ACTION-02">http://www.w3.org/2008/06/17-xhtml-minutes.html#ACTION-02 ←

15:21:08 <oedipus> RM: idea was MarkB go back on items and our reply should be consistent with / coordinate with XForms response on this

Roland Merrick: idea was MarkB go back on items and our reply should be consistent with / coordinate with XForms response on this ←

15:21:41 <oedipus> SP: moved comments up into section where topic discussed

Steven Pemberton: moved comments up into section where topic discussed ←

15:22:04 <oedipus> RM: Yam correct, do want to ensure coordinated response

Roland Merrick: Yam correct, do want to ensure coordinated response ←

15:22:21 <oedipus> Yam: don't agree with justifications

Toshihiko Yamakami: don't agree with justifications ←

15:23:46 <oedipus> ========= ADJOURN ============

9. ADJOURN ============

15:23:54 <Zakim> -ShaneM

Zakim IRC Bot: -ShaneM ←

15:23:57 <Zakim> -yamx

Zakim IRC Bot: -yamx ←

15:23:59 <Zakim> -Tina

Zakim IRC Bot: -Tina ←

15:24:05 <Zakim> -Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: -Steven ←

15:24:07 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita

Zakim IRC Bot: -Gregory_Rosmaita ←

15:24:07 <Zakim> -Alessio

Zakim IRC Bot: -Alessio ←

15:24:09 <Zakim> -Roland

Zakim IRC Bot: -Roland ←

15:24:10 <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()4:00AM has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: IA_XHTML2()4:00AM has ended ←

15:24:11 <Zakim> Attendees were Roland, ShaneM, Steven, Gregory_Rosmaita, Yam, Alessio, Tina, yamx

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were Roland, ShaneM, Steven, Gregory_Rosmaita, Yam, Alessio, Tina, yamx ←

15:24:18 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

15:24:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/18-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/18-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←

15:25:00 <oedipus> rrsagent, please part

rrsagent, please part ←

15:25:00 <RRSAgent> I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/18-xhtml-actions.rdf :

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/18-xhtml-actions.rdf : ←

15:25:00 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Shane craft text to about transformation of XHTML to HTML. [1]

ACTION: Shane craft text to about transformation of XHTML to HTML. [1] ←

15:25:00 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/18-xhtml-irc#T10-02-43

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/18-xhtml-irc#T10-02-43 ←

15:25:00 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Shane to finish the updating the XHTMLMIME draft then respond to Olivier's proposal. [2]

ACTION: Shane to finish the updating the XHTMLMIME draft then respond to Olivier's proposal. [2] ←

15:25:00 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/18-xhtml-irc#T12-53-37

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/18-xhtml-irc#T12-53-37 ←

15:25:00 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Steven - draft proposal for XHTML 1.2 - Content and Timescale [3]

ACTION: Steven - draft proposal for XHTML 1.2 - Content and Timescale [3] ←

15:25:00 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/18-xhtml-irc#T13-58-22

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/18-xhtml-irc#T13-58-22 ←

15:25:00 <RRSAgent> ACTION:  [4]

ACTION: [4] ←

15:25:00 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/18-xhtml-irc#T14-38-21

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/18-xhtml-irc#T14-38-21 ←

15:25:00 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Shane create an initial features document that includes the features from XML Events 2. [5]

ACTION: Shane create an initial features document that includes the features from XML Events 2. [5] ←

15:25:00 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/18-xhtml-irc#T15-13-16

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/18-xhtml-irc#T15-13-16 ←

Formatted by CommonScribe