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XHTML2 WG Weekly Teleconference

Minutes of 12 March 2008

Agenda
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Mar/0015.html
Seen
Gregory Rosmaita, Mark Birbeck, Roland Merrick, Shane McCarron, Steven Pemberton, Tina Holmboe, Unknown yamx
Regrets
Tina Holmboe, Unknown allessio
Chair
Roland Merrick
Scribe
Gregory Rosmaita
IRC Log
Original
Resolutions

None.

Topics

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13:52:02 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/03/12-xhtml-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/03/12-xhtml-irc

13:54:01 <RolandMerrick> RolandMerrick has changed the topic to: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Mar/0015.html

Roland Merrick: RolandMerrick has changed the topic to: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Mar/0015.html

13:54:37 <RolandMerrick> Zakim, this will be XHTML2

Roland Merrick: Zakim, this will be XHTML2

13:54:37 <Zakim> ok, RolandMerrick; I see IA_XHTML2()10:00AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, RolandMerrick; I see IA_XHTML2()10:00AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes

13:55:31 <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()10:00AM has now started

Zakim IRC Bot: IA_XHTML2()10:00AM has now started

13:55:38 <Zakim> +Roland

Zakim IRC Bot: +Roland

13:55:53 <Roland> zakim, list

Roland Merrick: zakim, list

13:55:53 <Zakim> I see IA_XHTML2()10:00AM, Team_W3M()8:00AM, WAI_ERTWG()9:30AM, INC_URW3()9:30AM active

Zakim IRC Bot: I see IA_XHTML2()10:00AM, Team_W3M()8:00AM, WAI_ERTWG()9:30AM, INC_URW3()9:30AM active

13:55:56 <Zakim> also scheduled at this time are I18N_TS()9:00AM, SW_SWEO()10:00AM

Zakim IRC Bot: also scheduled at this time are I18N_TS()9:00AM, SW_SWEO()10:00AM

14:00:15 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita

Zakim IRC Bot: +Gregory_Rosmaita

14:01:55 <oedipus> scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita

(Scribe set to Gregory Rosmaita)

14:02:00 <oedipus> scribeNick: oedipus
14:02:56 <Zakim> +ShaneM

Zakim IRC Bot: +ShaneM

14:03:07 <oedipus> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Mar/0015.html
14:03:15 <Roland> Meeting: XHTML2 WG Weekly Teleconference
14:03:28 <Roland> Chair: Roland
14:03:45 <Roland> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Mar/0015.html
14:04:27 <Steven_> zakim, dial steven-617

Steven Pemberton: zakim, dial steven-617

14:04:27 <Zakim> ok, Steven_; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven_; the call is being made

14:04:29 <Zakim> +Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: +Steven

14:05:30 <oedipus> regrets: tina, allessio

Scribe problem: the name 'allessio' does not match any of the 19 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alessio Cartocci Alexander Graf Christina Bottomley Elias Torres Gerrie Shults Gregory Rosmaita John Kugelman Luca Mascaro Mark Birbeck Masataka Yakura Michael Rawling Richard Schwerdtfeger Roland Merrick Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer Shane McCarron Steven Pemberton Susan Borgrink Tina Holmboe Toshihiko Yamakami

14:05:57 <Zakim> +??P25

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P25

14:06:06 <yamx> Zakim, ??P25 is yamx

Scribe problem: the name 'yamx' does not match any of the 22 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alessio Cartocci Alexander Graf Christina Bottomley Elias Torres Gerrie Shults Gregory Rosmaita John Kugelman Luca Mascaro Mark Birbeck Masataka Yakura Michael Rawling Richard Schwerdtfeger Roland Merrick Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer Shane McCarron Steven Pemberton Susan Borgrink Tina Holmboe Toshihiko Yamakami Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'yamx' does not match any of the 22 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alessio Cartocci Alexander Graf Christina Bottomley Elias Torres Gerrie Shults Gregory Rosmaita John Kugelman Luca Mascaro Mark Birbeck Masataka Yakura Michael Rawling Richard Schwerdtfeger Roland Merrick Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer Shane McCarron Steven Pemberton Susan Borgrink Tina Holmboe Toshihiko Yamakami Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown yamx: Zakim, ??P25 is yamx

14:06:06 <Zakim> +yamx; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +yamx; got it

14:06:50 <Steven_> rrsagent, here?

Steven Pemberton: rrsagent, here?

14:06:50 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2008/03/12-xhtml-irc#T14-06-50

RRSAgent IRC Bot: See http://www.w3.org/2008/03/12-xhtml-irc#T14-06-50

14:07:05 <Steven_> rrsagent,make log public

Steven Pemberton: rrsagent,make log public

14:07:43 <markbirbeck> zakim code?

Mark Birbeck: zakim code?

14:07:49 <Steven_> rrsagent, make minutes

Steven Pemberton: rrsagent, make minutes

14:07:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/03/12-xhtml-minutes.html Steven_

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/03/12-xhtml-minutes.html Steven_

14:08:01 <markbirbeck> zakim, code?

Mark Birbeck: zakim, code?

14:08:01 <Zakim> the conference code is 94865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck

Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 94865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck

14:08:26 <Zakim> +markbirbeck

Zakim IRC Bot: +markbirbeck

14:08:52 <Steven_> -> Previous http://www.w3.org/2008/03/05-xhtml-minutes.html

Steven Pemberton: -> Previous http://www.w3.org/2008/03/05-xhtml-minutes.html

14:10:01 <oedipus> TOPIC: Outstanding Reviews

1. Outstanding Reviews

14:10:13 <oedipus> CSS Namespace review submitted by StevenP

CSS Namespace review submitted by StevenP

14:10:26 <oedipus> TOPIC: Technical Plenary and AC Meetings Week, 20-24 October 2008

2. Technical Plenary and AC Meetings Week, 20-24 October 2008

14:10:55 <oedipus> SP: discuss briefly -- traditionally taken second slot (thurs/fri) at tech plenary -- asking if have preference, i say no

Steven Pemberton: discuss briefly -- traditionally taken second slot (thurs/fri) at tech plenary -- asking if have preference, i say no

14:12:08 <oedipus> SP: need to find out which groups we clash with -- XForms, PF -- any other groups want to avoid scheduling clash

Steven Pemberton: need to find out which groups we clash with -- XForms, PF -- any other groups want to avoid scheduling clash

14:12:26 <oedipus> SP: don't care if mon/tues or thurs/fri as long as doesn't conflict with Forms and PF

Steven Pemberton: don't care if mon/tues or thurs/fri as long as doesn't conflict with Forms and PF

14:12:33 <oedipus> SP: tech plenary in nice

Steven Pemberton: tech plenary in nice

14:12:40 <oedipus> RM: send response along SP's lines?

Roland Merrick: send response along SP's lines?

14:12:42 <oedipus> GJR: +1

Gregory Rosmaita: +1

14:13:17 <oedipus> ACTION Steven: attend to TPAC scheduling

ACTION Steven: attend to TPAC scheduling

14:13:27 <oedipus> TOPIC: CURIE transition to Last Call: status

3. CURIE transition to Last Call: status

14:13:45 <oedipus> SM: nothing from TAG -- pinged them again -- need to procede WITH their input, but if WG wants to can

Shane McCarron: nothing from TAG -- pinged them again -- need to procede WITH their input, but if WG wants to can

14:14:17 <oedipus> SP: can go to LC saying dealt with all issues we know of, if TAG doesn't reply, then proceed; if they don't may have to cycle back to LC

Steven Pemberton: can go to LC saying dealt with all issues we know of, if TAG doesn't reply, then proceed; if they don't may have to cycle back to LC

14:14:38 <oedipus> SM: what we want to avoid -- outstanding TAG response 2 weeks late -- keep pinging but no response

Shane McCarron: what we want to avoid -- outstanding TAG response 2 weeks late -- keep pinging but no response

14:14:58 <oedipus> SP: other people in TAG could be contacted (whisper in ear) -- can approach henry from another angle...

Steven Pemberton: other people in TAG could be contacted (whisper in ear) -- can approach henry from another angle...

14:15:05 <ShaneM> to be clear - lots of responses.  but the summary of the responses is "hang on - we are working on it"

Shane McCarron: to be clear - lots of responses. but the summary of the responses is "hang on - we are working on it"

14:15:09 <oedipus> SP: suggestions?

Steven Pemberton: suggestions?

14:15:38 <oedipus> RM: dragging for quite a while -- hanging for more than a month -- give Ben a deadline -- need to procede by end of next week

Roland Merrick: dragging for quite a while -- hanging for more than a month -- give Ben a deadline -- need to procede by end of next week

14:16:00 <oedipus> SP: henry's online now -- should i ping him

Steven Pemberton: henry's online now -- should i ping him

14:16:06 <oedipus> SM: i did 10 minutes ago

Shane McCarron: i did 10 minutes ago

14:16:27 <oedipus> SP: specifically request earlier in week or put as preference?

Steven Pemberton: specifically request earlier in week or put as preference?

14:16:52 <oedipus> SM: don't want to impose, just preference

Shane McCarron: don't want to impose, just preference

14:17:03 <oedipus> RM: continue to prod henry

Roland Merrick: continue to prod henry

14:17:07 <oedipus> SP: have his attention now

Steven Pemberton: have his attention now

14:17:38 <oedipus> RM: other actions -- upload final CURIEs draft; Shane to add a non-normative schema implementation to CURIE spec

Roland Merrick: other actions -- upload final CURIEs draft; Shane to add a non-normative schema implementation to CURIE spec

14:17:51 <oedipus> SM: wanted to ask WG what are we trying to solve there

Shane McCarron: wanted to ask WG what are we trying to solve there

14:17:56 <oedipus> RM: worth talking about

Roland Merrick: worth talking about

14:18:16 <oedipus> RM: want schema as well as DTD --

Roland Merrick: want schema as well as DTD --

14:18:35 <oedipus> SM: i had added data type to master data types definition module as part of M12n

Shane McCarron: i had added data type to master data types definition module as part of M12n

14:18:49 <Steven_> agenda+June FtF

Steven Pemberton: agenda+June FtF

14:19:00 <oedipus> SM: separate data type namespace -- made sense to put there b/c modularization

Shane McCarron: separate data type namespace -- made sense to put there b/c modularization

14:19:03 <Steven_> agenda+support of XHTML

Steven Pemberton: agenda+support of XHTML

14:19:05 <oedipus> SM: why have 2 modules

Shane McCarron: why have 2 modules

14:19:41 <oedipus> SM: didn't yet check in -- wanted to talk to group; not a "good, tight" definition -- placeholder right now -- complaints about "tightness" of schema defs, not sure how to make "tight"

Shane McCarron: didn't yet check in -- wanted to talk to group; not a "good, tight" definition -- placeholder right now -- complaints about "tightness" of schema defs, not sure how to make "tight"

14:19:53 <oedipus> SM: CURIEs just strings that might have a colon in them -- thoughts?

Shane McCarron: CURIEs just strings that might have a colon in them -- thoughts?

14:20:08 <oedipus> MB: checking my definition from work ages ago...

Mark Birbeck: checking my definition from work ages ago...

14:20:26 <oedipus> MB: can't locate, but did have a regular expression for this

Mark Birbeck: can't locate, but did have a regular expression for this

14:20:41 <oedipus> RM: how does it compare wity QName built-in type?

Roland Merrick: how does it compare wity QName built-in type?

14:21:01 <oedipus> MB: not built-in; 2) after colon doesn't have to be NC name

Mark Birbeck: not built-in; 2) after colon doesn't have to be NC name

14:21:08 <oedipus> SP: essentially anything that can be in a URI

Steven Pemberton: essentially anything that can be in a URI

14:21:27 <oedipus> SP: struggled to find more structure than that, but series of any chars that can be in URI -- don't know what's in prefix

Steven Pemberton: struggled to find more structure than that, but series of any chars that can be in URI -- don't know what's in prefix

14:21:36 <ShaneM> right now I have this:

Shane McCarron: right now I have this:

14:21:36 <ShaneM>     <!-- CURIE -->

Shane McCarron: <!-- CURIE -->

14:21:36 <ShaneM>     <xs:simpleType name="CURIE">

Shane McCarron: <xs:simpleType name="CURIE">

14:21:36 <ShaneM>         <xs:restriction base="xs:string"/>

Shane McCarron: <xs:restriction base="xs:string"/>

14:21:36 <ShaneM>     </xs:simpleType>

Shane McCarron: </xs:simpleType>

14:21:37 <ShaneM>     <xs:simpleType name="CURIEs">

Shane McCarron: <xs:simpleType name="CURIEs">

14:21:39 <ShaneM>         <xs:list itemType="xh11d:CURIE"/>

Shane McCarron: <xs:list itemType="xh11d:CURIE"/>

14:21:41 <ShaneM>     </xs:simpleType>

Shane McCarron: </xs:simpleType>

14:21:46 <oedipus> RM: CURIEs or list of CURIEs or what?

Roland Merrick: CURIEs or list of CURIEs or what?

14:22:22 <oedipus> SM: pasted into IRC what i have -- that's what's there right now -- safe CURIE production, might put together 2 -- URI or CURIE data type

Shane McCarron: pasted into IRC what i have -- that's what's there right now -- safe CURIE production, might put together 2 -- URI or CURIE data type

14:22:23 <oedipus> MB: right

Mark Birbeck: right

14:22:39 <oedipus> SM: don't think anything sensible can say in regular expression that anyone would have confidence in

Shane McCarron: don't think anything sensible can say in regular expression that anyone would have confidence in

14:23:15 <oedipus> MB: way i did this was copy the productions for a relative URI -- even though difficult and allows anything, more correct to have that level of indirection, rather than us saying "only a string"

Mark Birbeck: way i did this was copy the productions for a relative URI -- even though difficult and allows anything, more correct to have that level of indirection, rather than us saying "only a string"

14:23:25 <oedipus> MB: do have regular expression that does this, have to locate

Mark Birbeck: do have regular expression that does this, have to locate

14:23:33 <oedipus> SM: why regular expression -- just a URI

Shane McCarron: why regular expression -- just a URI

14:23:40 <oedipus> SP: lexical space

Steven Pemberton: lexical space

14:23:46 <oedipus> SM: i believe lexical space same

Shane McCarron: i believe lexical space same

14:23:53 <oedipus> RM: no, prefix, colon, URI

Roland Merrick: no, prefix, colon, URI

14:23:58 <oedipus> SM: don't need prefix

Shane McCarron: don't need prefix

14:24:10 <oedipus> RM: optional prefix, colon, URI then

Roland Merrick: optional prefix, colon, URI then

14:24:19 <oedipus> SP: URI not a CURIE and a CURIE that isn't URI

Steven Pemberton: URI not a CURIE and a CURIE that isn't URI

14:24:33 <oedipus> RM: conceptually different -- mistake to call same thing

Roland Merrick: conceptually different -- mistake to call same thing

14:24:44 <oedipus> RM: any string is what i'm getting at

Roland Merrick: any string is what i'm getting at

14:24:48 <oedipus> SM: any URI?

Shane McCarron: any URI?

14:24:53 <oedipus> RM: say "relative URI"

Roland Merrick: say "relative URI"

14:25:05 <oedipus> RM: specifically refer to sub-part of URI expression -- iFragment

Roland Merrick: specifically refer to sub-part of URI expression -- iFragment

14:25:07 <oedipus> SM: right

Shane McCarron: right

14:25:38 <oedipus> RM: can be anything but that is conceptual rather than string literal -- can't use in schemas (x followed by y making y fundamental data type -- just doesn't exist)

Roland Merrick: can be anything but that is conceptual rather than string literal -- can't use in schemas (x followed by y making y fundamental data type -- just doesn't exist)

14:25:41 <oedipus> MB: assign a name

Mark Birbeck: assign a name

14:25:50 <oedipus> RM: create regular expression that maps to this

Roland Merrick: create regular expression that maps to this

14:25:58 <oedipus> MB: URI doesn't contain regular expression

Mark Birbeck: URI doesn't contain regular expression

14:26:08 <ShaneM> http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema

Shane McCarron: http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema

14:26:16 <oedipus> SM: have to relook at XML data type schema but son't think regular expression

Shane McCarron: have to relook at XML data type schema but son't think regular expression

14:26:46 <oedipus> MB: differences: 1) not built-in type -- built-in types don't need regular expression, but we do

Mark Birbeck: differences: 1) not built-in type -- built-in types don't need regular expression, but we do

14:27:14 <oedipus> RM: how validate in schema?  validate that URI is a URI

Roland Merrick: how validate in schema? validate that URI is a URI

14:28:02 <oedipus> MB: discussion just morphed into "do we need to do this" -- yes, can write regular expression, but so broad it isn't completely useful -- making it any string not the correct solution -- need a regular expression, but need to be aware that anything can be in regular expression

Mark Birbeck: discussion just morphed into "do we need to do this" -- yes, can write regular expression, but so broad it isn't completely useful -- making it any string not the correct solution -- need a regular expression, but need to be aware that anything can be in regular expression

14:28:21 <oedipus> RM: restraint for CURIE as whole?

Roland Merrick: restraint for CURIE as whole?

14:28:27 <oedipus> MB: done in past -- have to locate

Mark Birbeck: done in past -- have to locate

14:28:53 <oedipus> SM: if MB has regular expression that works, ok with string -- M12n data types makes most sense

Shane McCarron: if MB has regular expression that works, ok with string -- M12n data types makes most sense

14:29:01 <oedipus> SM: M12n doesn't actually use it today

Shane McCarron: M12n doesn't actually use it today

14:29:19 <oedipus> SM: but we have produced modules that use it so M12n is right place (RDFa and Role need it)

Shane McCarron: but we have produced modules that use it so M12n is right place (RDFa and Role need it)

14:29:40 <oedipus> RM: document that schema in m12n spec

Roland Merrick: document that schema in m12n spec

14:29:42 <oedipus> SM: yes

Shane McCarron: yes

14:30:33 <oedipus> ACTION: MarkBirbeck - produce regular expression and URI/CURIE type

ACTION: MarkBirbeck - produce regular expression and URI/CURIE type

14:30:49 <oedipus> SM: RDFa has use for that -- use case TAG most afraid of

Shane McCarron: RDFa has use for that -- use case TAG most afraid of

14:31:06 <oedipus> SM: mixing CURIEs and URIs -- that's what they are nervous about

Shane McCarron: mixing CURIEs and URIs -- that's what they are nervous about

14:31:47 <oedipus> ACTION: ShaneM - document that "such types exist" in m12n in document; MarkB will produce actual definitions

ACTION: ShaneM - document that "such types exist" in m12n in document; MarkB will produce actual definitions

14:31:57 <oedipus> RM: anything else about CURIEs?

Roland Merrick: anything else about CURIEs?

14:32:49 <oedipus> RM: next wednesday, decide if want to procede even if don't hear back from TAG

Roland Merrick: next wednesday, decide if want to procede even if don't hear back from TAG

14:33:28 <oedipus> SP: 2 other agenda items -- 1) june face 2 face -- created blank face to face page on wiki

Steven Pemberton: 2 other agenda items -- 1) june face 2 face -- created blank face to face page on wiki

14:34:07 <oedipus> SP: contacted hotels and will get info back to WG this week

Shane McCarron: contacted hotels and will get info back to WG this week

14:34:07 <Roland> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2008-06-Minneapolis-FtF

Roland Merrick: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2008-06-Minneapolis-FtF

14:34:22 <oedipus> s/SP: contacted/SM: contacted
14:34:58 <oedipus> SP: 2) getting the message out -- year or 2 ago, some people complained that no one supporting XHTML and publishing denegrating statistics and so is a "failure"

Steven Pemberton: 2) getting the message out -- year or 2 ago, some people complained that no one supporting XHTML and publishing denegrating statistics and so is a "failure"

14:35:57 <oedipus> SP: this weekend, looked at top web sites -- went to alexa and found list of 100 most popular websites (on basis of bandwith) -- examined to see if use XHTML -- numbers far greater than that being claimed by XHTML opponents

Steven Pemberton: this weekend, looked at top web sites -- went to alexa and found list of 100 most popular websites (on basis of bandwith) -- examined to see if use XHTML -- numbers far greater than that being claimed by XHTML opponents

14:36:12 <oedipus> RM: part of confusion may be mime-type

Roland Merrick: part of confusion may be mime-type

14:37:04 <markbirbeck> q+

Mark Birbeck: q+

14:37:08 <oedipus> SP: healthy proportion that did it completely right; also a reasonable proportion that did same for HTML4; then a number of pages where clearly XHTML (had all the attributes had quotes, closing slash and lower case) but not documented correctly -- remainder tag souop

Steven Pemberton: healthy proportion that did it completely right; also a reasonable proportion that did same for HTML4; then a number of pages where clearly XHTML (had all the attributes had quotes, closing slash and lower case) but not documented correctly -- remainder tag souop

14:37:24 <oedipus> RM: BBC web site -- XHTML Strict

Roland Merrick: BBC web site -- XHTML Strict

14:38:01 <oedipus> SP: should do analysis properly -- look at top 100, create article about strength of support 30% use correctly, 20-25% don't declare propertly

Steven Pemberton: should do analysis properly -- look at top 100, create article about strength of support 30% use correctly, 20-25% don't declare propertly

14:38:05 <oedipus> SP: where to publish

Steven Pemberton: where to publish

14:38:14 <oedipus> RM: can start putting into wiki

Roland Merrick: can start putting into wiki

14:38:23 <oedipus> SP: if do something like that, good to fanfare it

Steven Pemberton: if do something like that, good to fanfare it

14:38:32 <oedipus> RM: just make available via wiki as first step

Roland Merrick: just make available via wiki as first step

14:39:14 <oedipus> MB: excellent to get numbers, but since XHTML spec says should use XHTML mime-type/DTD, opponents say that is not XHTML

Mark Birbeck: excellent to get numbers, but since XHTML spec says should use XHTML mime-type/DTD, opponents say that is not XHTML

14:40:03 <oedipus> RM: bring all together -- with looser mime-type, we have a lot more XHTML than people are admitting; have to express that spec not so uptight or restrictive

Roland Merrick: bring all together -- with looser mime-type, we have a lot more XHTML than people are admitting; have to express that spec not so uptight or restrictive

14:42:11 <oedipus> MB: initial claim - XHTML broken, let's get more mileage out of HTML -- now XML serialization as XHTML5 -- going against initial claims, but in an end-around manner, letting fox into chicken house

Mark Birbeck: initial claim - XHTML broken, let's get more mileage out of HTML -- now XML serialization as XHTML5 -- going against initial claims, but in an end-around manner, letting fox into chicken house

14:42:56 <oedipus> MB: no extensibility, but one huge document that has to cater to not being XHTML; showing XHTML has traction would be useful

Mark Birbeck: no extensibility, but one huge document that has to cater to not being XHTML; showing XHTML has traction would be useful

14:43:56 <oedipus> RM: need to go more in direction of XHTML being rendered by HTML renderers; nothing in spec about it - XHTML renderers rare, given IE's share, should look at loosening mime type, but also means of XHTML in today's UAs being rendered by HTML engines

Roland Merrick: need to go more in direction of XHTML being rendered by HTML renderers; nothing in spec about it - XHTML renderers rare, given IE's share, should look at loosening mime type, but also means of XHTML in today's UAs being rendered by HTML engines

14:44:12 <oedipus> SP: thought agreed to change mime-type

Steven Pemberton: thought agreed to change mime-type

14:44:28 <oedipus> SM: discussed it but received massive objections -- haven't made change publicly

Shane McCarron: discussed it but received massive objections -- haven't made change publicly

14:44:40 <oedipus> SM: changed in XHTML 1.1 working draft and people went nuts

Shane McCarron: changed in XHTML 1.1 working draft and people went nuts

14:44:57 <oedipus> RM: also require an XML parser -- inhibits uptake of XHTML

Roland Merrick: also require an XML parser -- inhibits uptake of XHTML

14:45:03 <oedipus> SM: don't require XML parser

Shane McCarron: don't require XML parser

14:45:12 <oedipus> RM: XML application, though

Roland Merrick: XML application, though

14:45:56 <oedipus> SM: big arguements get from WHAT WG people is that XHTML doesn't work in wild -- if but embedded CDATA sections that redo DTD doesn't work in browserX

Shane McCarron: big arguements get from WHAT WG people is that XHTML doesn't work in wild -- if but embedded CDATA sections that redo DTD doesn't work in browserX

14:46:18 <oedipus> RM: if XML namespace used, won't work in current browser

Roland Merrick: if XML namespace used, won't work in current browser

14:46:41 <ShaneM> XHTML 1.0 Appendix A was intended to give guidance

Shane McCarron: XHTML 1.0 Appendix A was intended to give guidance

14:47:18 <oedipus> RM: confusion -- people don't know where W3C is going on this -- needs more thought and energy

Roland Merrick: confusion -- people don't know where W3C is going on this -- needs more thought and energy

14:47:22 <oedipus> SP: agree

Steven Pemberton: agree

14:47:49 <oedipus> MB: worthwile and ongoing work -- XHTML, XML and XHTML2 -- modularized and extensible benefits

Mark Birbeck: worthwile and ongoing work -- XHTML, XML and XHTML2 -- modularized and extensible benefits

14:48:15 <Steven_> "XHTML Documents which follow the guidelines set forth in Appendix C, "HTML Compatibility Guidelines" may be labeled with the Internet Media Type "text/html" [RFC2854], as they are compatible with most HTML browsers."

Steven Pemberton: "XHTML Documents which follow the guidelines set forth in Appendix C, "HTML Compatibility Guidelines" may be labeled with the Internet Media Type "text/html" [RFC2854], as they are compatible with most HTML browsers."

14:48:28 <oedipus> SM: core of misunderstanding is Appendix A from XHTML 1.0 -- did a bad job there -- if going to fix, start there -- add similar appendix with XHTML 1.1 as non-normative appendix

Shane McCarron: core of misunderstanding is Appendix C from XHTML 1.0 -- did a bad job there -- if going to fix, start there -- add similar appendix with XHTML 1.1 as non-normative appendix

14:48:34 <oedipus> [general agreement[

[general agreement[

14:48:44 <Steven_> "Those documents, and any other document conforming to this specification, may also be labeled with the Internet Media Type "application/xhtml+xml" as defined in [RFC3236]. "

Steven Pemberton: "Those documents, and any other document conforming to this specification, may also be labeled with the Internet Media Type "application/xhtml+xml" as defined in [RFC3236]. "

14:50:16 <oedipus> Yam; last week japanese W3C member meetings; 1 main topic HTML5 -- surprised that more than 75% of HTML5 presentation that IE8 beta2 will support some HTML5 features; some HTML5 features supported by IE8 - no committment to support whole thing in FF;

Yam; last week japanese W3C member meetings; 1 main topic HTML5 -- surprised that more than 75% of HTML5 presentation that IE8 beta2 will support some HTML5 features; some HTML5 features supported by IE8 - no committment to support whole thing in FF;

14:50:36 <oedipus> RM: IE8 beta will improve things generally

Roland Merrick: IE8 beta will improve things generally

14:51:15 <oedipus> SP: do we think analysis worthwile?

Steven Pemberton: do we think analysis worthwile?

14:51:16 <oedipus> YES

YES

14:51:22 <oedipus> SP: put it somewhere?

Steven Pemberton: put it somewhere?

14:51:23 <oedipus> YES

YES

14:51:36 <oedipus> RM: put into wiki first and then sort and filter

Roland Merrick: put into wiki first and then sort and filter

14:51:41 <ShaneM> s/Appendix A/Appendix C/
14:52:00 <oedipus> SP: 30 of top 100 (majority) use XHTML

Steven Pemberton: 30 of top 100 (majority) use XHTML

14:52:07 <ShaneM> ACTION: Shane to migrate Appendix C to the draft XHTML 1.1 second edition

ACTION: Shane to migrate Appendix C to the draft XHTML 1.1 second edition

14:52:40 <oedipus> MB: what happens in diff geographic areas and diff languages -- browsers differ geogrphically -- content could be used in diff ways for markets -- know how to ID mobile

??: what happens in diff geographic areas and diff languages -- browsers differ geogrphically -- content could be used in diff ways for markets -- know how to ID mobile

14:52:58 <oedipus> RM: agenda review, redux -- M12n?

Roland Merrick: agenda review, redux -- M12n?

14:53:34 <oedipus> SP: collecting dates from w3c people -- communications people don't join call anymore -- hope by end of week will have range of dates from steve bratt -- then can select suitable date

Steven Pemberton: collecting dates from w3c people -- communications people don't join call anymore -- hope by end of week will have range of dates from steve bratt -- then can select suitable date

14:53:51 <oedipus> SP: Shane, do we have an editor's draft that disposes all of steve b's comments

Steven Pemberton: Shane, do we have an editor's draft that disposes all of steve b's comments

14:53:59 <oedipus> SM: don't remember

Shane McCarron: don't remember

14:54:19 <oedipus> SP: included pointers in request

Steven Pemberton: included pointers in request

14:54:26 <oedipus> SM: have to investigate

Shane McCarron: have to investigate

14:54:35 <oedipus> SP: please do, then can schedule call

Steven Pemberton: please do, then can schedule call

14:54:43 <oedipus> TOPIC: XHTML Basic 1.1

4. XHTML Basic 1.1

14:54:55 <oedipus> SP: waiting on me -- trying to finish implementation reports this week

Steven Pemberton: waiting on me -- trying to finish implementation reports this week

14:55:10 <oedipus> RM: skip XHTML 1.1 SE status for now

Roland Merrick: skip XHTML 1.1 SE status for now

14:55:20 <oedipus> RM: actions against RDFa syntax

Roland Merrick: actions against RDFa syntax

14:55:46 <oedipus> Steven to reply to TAG that we disagree. (in process)

Steven to reply to TAG that we disagree. (in process)

14:55:56 <oedipus> SM: added note that there is a risk that humans might perceivea CURIE as a URI

Shane McCarron: added note that there is a risk that humans might perceivea CURIE as a URI

14:56:31 <oedipus> RM: Role Module - running bit behind CURIEs -- have the implementation convention and Role Attribute module changes from WAI-PF -- finally received

Roland Merrick: Role Module - running bit behind CURIEs -- have the implementation convention and Role Attribute module changes from WAI-PF -- finally received

14:56:38 <oedipus> RM: any difficulties

Roland Merrick: any difficulties

14:57:41 <Steven> But can you spell it?

Steven Pemberton: But can you spell it?

14:57:48 <oedipus> complimentary

complimentary

14:58:16 <oedipus> RM: all wai roles into xhtml namespace so don't have to be prefix qualified

Roland Merrick: all wai roles into xhtml namespace so don't have to be prefix qualified

14:58:43 <Steven> That was my point

Steven Pemberton: That was my point

14:58:44 <oedipus> SM: can put PF's in our namespace -- left room for it in Vocabulary document

Shane McCarron: can put PF's in our namespace -- left room for it in Vocabulary document

14:58:49 <Steven> that is not how one spells it

Steven Pemberton: that is not how one spells it

14:58:57 <Steven> I think it is a bad choice for that reason

Steven Pemberton: I think it is a bad choice for that reason

14:59:00 <oedipus> RM: enough to procede?

Roland Merrick: enough to procede?

14:59:20 <markbirbeck> +1 to Steven

Mark Birbeck: +1 to Steven

15:00:51 <markbirbeck> s/MB: what happens in diff geographic/??: what happens in diff geographic/
15:01:30 <oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Mar/0014.html

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Mar/0014.html

15:01:45 <Steven> s/??/RM/
15:01:54 <Steven> I don't like complementary

Steven Pemberton: I don't like complementary

15:03:49 <Zakim> -ShaneM

Zakim IRC Bot: -ShaneM

15:04:13 <Zakim> -Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: -Steven

15:04:13 <markbirbeck> zakim, who is making noise?

Mark Birbeck: zakim, who is making noise?

15:04:14 <Zakim> -Roland

Zakim IRC Bot: -Roland

15:04:17 <Zakim> -markbirbeck

Zakim IRC Bot: -markbirbeck

15:04:19 <Zakim> -yamx

Scribe problem: the name 'yamx' does not match any of the 22 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alessio Cartocci Alexander Graf Christina Bottomley Elias Torres Gerrie Shults Gregory Rosmaita John Kugelman Luca Mascaro Mark Birbeck Masataka Yakura Michael Rawling Richard Schwerdtfeger Roland Merrick Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer Shane McCarron Steven Pemberton Susan Borgrink Tina Holmboe Toshihiko Yamakami Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Zakim IRC Bot: -yamx

15:04:24 <Zakim> markbirbeck, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: yamx (92%), markbirbeck (96%)

Zakim IRC Bot: markbirbeck, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: yamx (92%), markbirbeck (96%)

15:05:13 <Roland> rrsagent, make minutes

Roland Merrick: rrsagent, make minutes

15:05:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/03/12-xhtml-minutes.html Roland

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/03/12-xhtml-minutes.html Roland

15:05:15 <oedipus> ACTION: ShaneM - incorporate WAI-PF verbiage to Role vocabulary

ACTION: ShaneM - incorporate WAI-PF verbiage to Role vocabulary

15:05:19 <Steven> 92%+96%! No wonder it was so loud!

Steven Pemberton: 92%+96%! No wonder it was so loud!

15:05:37 <Roland> yes please

Roland Merrick: yes please

15:05:43 <oedipus> no problem

no problem

15:06:22 <oedipus> GJR: by the way, PF is giving XHTML2 / Shane the final say on "complimentary" or "supplemental" or something better than "secondary" (deemed pejorative)

Gregory Rosmaita: by the way, PF is giving XHTML2 / Shane the final say on "complimentary" or "supplemental" or something better than "secondary" (deemed pejorative)

15:06:32 <oedipus> rrsagent, draft minutes

rrsagent, draft minutes

15:06:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/03/12-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/03/12-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

15:07:37 <oedipus> zakim, please part

zakim, please part

15:07:37 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were Roland, Gregory_Rosmaita, ShaneM, Steven, yamx, markbirbeck

Zakim IRC Bot: leaving. As of this point the attendees were Roland, Gregory_Rosmaita, ShaneM, Steven, yamx, markbirbeck

15:07:41 <oedipus> rrsagent, draft minutes

rrsagent, draft minutes

15:07:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/03/12-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/03/12-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

15:08:13 <oedipus> present+ CSB_on_IRC

present+ CSB_on_IRC

15:08:15 <oedipus> rrsagent, draft minutes

rrsagent, draft minutes

15:08:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/03/12-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/03/12-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

15:09:10 <oedipus> rrsagent, please part

rrsagent, please part

15:09:10 <RRSAgent> I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/12-xhtml-actions.rdf :

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/12-xhtml-actions.rdf :

15:09:10 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Steven to attend to TPAC scheduling  [1]

ACTION: Steven to attend to TPAC scheduling [1]

15:09:10 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/12-xhtml-irc#T14-13-17

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/12-xhtml-irc#T14-13-17

15:09:10 <RRSAgent> ACTION: MarkBirbeck - produce regular expression and URI/CURIE type [2]

ACTION: MarkBirbeck - produce regular expression and URI/CURIE type [2]

15:09:10 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/12-xhtml-irc#T14-30-33

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/12-xhtml-irc#T14-30-33

15:09:10 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ShaneM - document that "such types exist" in m12n in document; MarkB will produce actual definitions [3]

ACTION: ShaneM - document that "such types exist" in m12n in document; MarkB will produce actual definitions [3]

15:09:10 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/12-xhtml-irc#T14-31-47

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/12-xhtml-irc#T14-31-47

15:09:10 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Shane to migrate Appendix C to the draft XHTML 1.1 second edition [4]

ACTION: Shane to migrate Appendix C to the draft XHTML 1.1 second edition [4]

15:09:10 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/12-xhtml-irc#T14-52-07

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/12-xhtml-irc#T14-52-07

15:09:10 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ShaneM - incorporate WAI-PF verbiage to Role vocabulary [5]

ACTION: ShaneM - incorporate WAI-PF verbiage to Role vocabulary [5]

15:09:10 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/12-xhtml-irc#T15-05-15

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/12-xhtml-irc#T15-05-15



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