Meeting Record

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08:09:45 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/02/19-xhtml-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/02/19-xhtml-irc ←

08:10:01 <Steven> rrsagent, make log public

Steven Pemberton: rrsagent, make log public ←

08:10:22 <Steven> Meeting: XHTML2 WG FtF, Venice, Italy, Day 2

08:10:35 <Steven> Chair: Roland, STeven

08:10:39 <Steven> Scribe: Steven

(Scribe set to Steven Pemberton)

08:11:45 <Steven> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2008-02-Venice-FtF-Agenda

08:12:42 <Steven> .me 12.30ish

.me 12.30ish ←

08:19:03 <Steven> yep

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yep ←

08:30:10 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes

(No events recorded for 11 minutes)

rrsagent, make minutes ←

08:30:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/19-xhtml-minutes.html Steven

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/19-xhtml-minutes.html Steven ←

08:30:55 <Steven> s/ST/St/

08:31:23 <Steven> Present: Roland, Alessio, Rich, Yam, Steven, Shane

08:32:18 <oedipus> present+ Gregory

Scribe problem: the name 'oedipus' does not match any of the 9 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Roland Merrick Alessio Cartocci Richard Schwerdtfeger Toshihiko Yamakami Steven Pemberton Shane McCarron Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown oedipus: present+ Gregory ←

08:33:27 <Steven> I was just about to thank you

I was just about to thank you ←

08:33:36 <oedipus> no need

Unknown oedipus: no need ←

08:41:22 <Steven> Topic: Frames (brief return)

(No events recorded for 7 minutes)

1. Role (brief return)

08:41:35 <Steven> Scribe: Yam

(Scribe set to Toshihiko Yamakami)

08:41:43 <Steven> scribenick: yamx

Scribe problem: the name 'yamx' does not match any of the 9 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Roland Merrick Alessio Cartocci Richard Schwerdtfeger Toshihiko Yamakami Steven Pemberton Shane McCarron Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

(Scribe set to Unknown yamx)

08:42:17 <yamx> Steven: Brat will review M12N modularization transition request.

Steven Pemberton: Bratt will review M12N modularization transition request. ←

08:42:57 <yamx> Steven: Brat asked about XHTMLBasic 1.1 (but it is not delayed from M12N from our perspective).

Steven Pemberton: Bratt asked about XHTMLBasic 1.1 (but it is not delayed by M12N from our perspective). ←

08:43:14 <yamx> s/from M12N/by M12N/

08:44:09 <Steven> s/Frames/Role/

08:44:32 <yamx> Shane: an issue for Role.

Shane McCarron: an issue for Role. ←

08:45:04 <yamx> Shane: I would like to capture the resolution correctly.

Shane McCarron: I would like to capture the resolution correctly. ←

08:46:07 <yamx> Rolan: It SHOULD have dereferenceable, and one of them should be RDF.

Roland Merrick: It SHOULD have dereferenceable, and one of them should be RDF. ←

08:46:14 <yamx> s/Rolan/Roland/

08:46:51 <yamx> Steven: we added "some is beyond the scope of role (it is vocab issue)".

Steven Pemberton: we added "some is beyond the scope of role (it is vocab issue)". ←

08:46:57 <yamx> Roland: Another vocabulary.

Roland Merrick: Another vocabulary. ←

08:47:25 <yamx> Roland: yesterday of action is action for Roland to reply to the guy raising the original issue.

Roland Merrick: yesterday of action is action for Roland to reply to the guy raising the original issue. ←

08:47:41 <yamx> Roland: Leave the action for Roland.

Roland Merrick: Leave the action for Roland. ←

08:48:11 <yamx> Roland: we talked xFrames, equivalent iFrame.

Roland Merrick: we talked xFrames, equivalent iFrame. ←

08:48:43 <yamx> Topic: Yesterday refresh (xFrames)

2. Yesterday refresh (xFrames)

08:50:19 <Steven> <frame xml:id="one"/>

Steven Pemberton: <frame xml:id="one"/> ←

08:50:22 <yamx> Steven: Populating URI with ids, and extends to XHMTL2.

Steven Pemberton: Populating URI with ids, and extends to XHMTL2. ←

08:50:30 <Steven> home.xframes#frames(one=a.xhtml,

Steven Pemberton: home.xframes#frames(one=a.xhtml, ←

08:51:03 <Steven> So we could say that this works for XHTML2 as well

Steven Pemberton: So we could say that this works for XHTML2 as well ←

08:51:06 <yamx> Roland: We will retain the notion of subclases of object like iFrame, src value matching.

Roland Merrick: We will retain the notion of subclases of object like iFrame, src value matching. ←

08:51:18 <Steven> and the URI replaces the src attribute

Steven Pemberton: and the URI replaces the src attribute ←

08:51:37 <Steven> on the element that matches the id

Steven Pemberton: on the element that matches the id ←

08:51:59 <yamx> Roland: Could we do the sme thing to document?

Roland Merrick: Could we do the sme thing to document? ←

08:52:41 <yamx> Steven: question is matching with id, not match src attribute, do we create one?

Steven Pemberton: question is matching with id, not match src attribute, do we create one? ←

08:53:22 <yamx> Steven: Replacing can lead to some unintended security risk.. just thinking...

Steven Pemberton: Replacing can lead to some unintended security risk.. just thinking... ←

08:54:45 <yamx> Roland: thinking about killing three birds in one stone, bookmarking, frame flow, ...

Roland Merrick: thinking about killing three birds in one stone, bookmarking, frame flow, ... ←

08:55:01 <yamx> Steven: going for some flipchart to think about it.

Steven Pemberton: I am going for some flipchart to think about it. ←

08:55:57 <yamx> (Steven went out for flipchart)

(Steven went out , seeking for flipchart) ←

08:56:18 <yamx> s/going/I am going/

08:56:37 <yamx> s/for/, seeking for/

08:57:07 <yamx> (Steven returned with a flipchart.)

(Steven returned with a flipchart.) ←

08:57:46 <yamx> Steven: [[summarizing frame requirements]]

Steven Pemberton: [[summarizing frame requirements]] ←

08:58:57 <yamx> Roland: maybe some attributes to distinguish "replace-able", "bookmark-able" srcs.

Roland Merrick: maybe some attributes to distinguish "replace-able", "bookmark-able" srcs. ←

08:59:51 <yamx> Shane: it may resolve many comments we received about people's concerns what content can be covered.

Shane McCarron: it may resolve many comments we received about people's concerns what content can be covered. ←

09:00:33 <yamx> Roland: "static" and "iframe-type-src (replace-able)".

Roland Merrick: "static" and "iframe-type-src (replace-able)". ←

09:02:09 <yamx> Roland: Ability to change (bookmark, if changed, it is reflected as URL).

Roland Merrick: Ability to change (bookmark, if changed, it is reflected as URL). ←

09:02:46 <yamx> Rich: changing the value will automatically refresh?

Richard Schwerdtfeger: changing the value will automatically refresh? ←

09:03:07 <yamx> Rich: We have to think about scripting environment.

Richard Schwerdtfeger: We have to think about scripting environment. ←

09:03:29 <yamx> Roland: Does the page automatically reloaded when managed by scripts?

Richard Schwerdtfeger: Does the page automatically reloaded when managed by scripts? ←

09:03:37 <yamx> s/Roland/Rich/

09:04:12 <yamx> Roland: Default action is reload, but it can be cancellable.

Roland Merrick: Default action is reload, but it can be cancellable. ←

09:04:41 <yamx> Roland described body-object-iframe on flipchart.

Roland described body-object-iframe on flipchart. ←

09:05:03 <yamx> <body>

<body> ←

09:05:15 <yamx>  <object src="myStuff.smil" />

09:05:30 <yamx>  <iframe id="f2" srcc="myStuff.html" />

09:05:32 <yamx> </body>

</body> ←

09:05:46 <yamx> s/srcc=/src=/

09:06:23 <yamx> http://example.org/home.xframes#frames(f2=myothersutff.html,...)

http://example.org/home.xframes#frames(f2=myothersutff.html,...) ←

09:07:02 <yamx> Roland: bookmark will go to "myStuff.html".

Roland Merrick: bookmark will go to "myStuff.html". ←

09:07:35 <yamx> Steven: http://exmaple.org/home.xframes"src(f2=myotherstuff.html, ..); Roland agreed.

Steven Pemberton: http://exmaple.org/home.xframes#src(f2=myotherstuff.html, ..); Roland agreed. ←

09:07:57 <yamx> s/"src/#src/

09:08:56 <yamx> Steven: the resulting URl is not changed from <object> use.

Steven Pemberton: the resulting URl is not changed from <object> use. ←

09:09:27 <yamx> Roland: the first one can be <div> (not only <object>).

Roland Merrick: the first one can be <div> (not only <object>). ←

09:10:31 <yamx> Roland: "target" as "iframe"...

Roland Merrick: "target" as "iframe"... ←

09:11:19 <yamx> Steven: Frame does not have "id", it is not bookmarkable.

Steven Pemberton: Frame does not have "id", it is not bookmarkable. ←

09:12:03 <yamx> Roland: bookmarkability, inline capability, fall-back capability, flow, ...

Roland Merrick: bookmarkability, inline capability, fall-back capability, flow, ... ←

09:12:29 <yamx> Rich: some next step issues, widgets, ...

Richard Schwerdtfeger: some next step issues, widgets, ... ←

09:13:20 <yamx> (Pens arrived for scribing flipcharts.)

(Pens arrived for scribing flipcharts.) ←

09:13:40 <ShaneM> (Prior to this scribing in blood - dedicated group!)

Shane McCarron: (Prior to this scribing in blood - dedicated group!) ←

09:13:58 <yamx> (We are blood-tied-group)

(We are blood-tied-group) ←

09:15:39 <Roland_> http://example.org/home.xframes#src(f2=myotherstuff.html,f1=img.jpg...)

Roland Merrick: http://example.org/home.xframes#src(f2=myotherstuff.html,f1=img.jpg...) ←

09:15:39 <Roland_> <body>

Roland Merrick: <body> ←

09:15:39 <Roland_>      <div id="f1" role="navigation" src="nav.html" />

Roland Merrick: <div id="f1" role="navigation" src="nav.html" /> ←

09:15:41 <Roland_>      <iframe id="f2" role="main" src="myStuff.html" />

Roland Merrick: <iframe id="f2" role="main" src="myStuff.html" /> ←

09:15:43 <Roland_> </body>

Roland Merrick: </body> ←

09:16:11 <Steven> Rules: If there is no @src, then there is no assignment

Scribe problem: the name 'Rules' does not match any of the 9 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Roland Merrick Alessio Cartocci Richard Schwerdtfeger Toshihiko Yamakami Steven Pemberton Shane McCarron Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Rules: If there is no @src, then there is no assignment [ Scribe Assist by Steven Pemberton ] ←

09:16:35 <Steven> ... changes in an iframe get reflected in the top-level URL

Steven Pemberton: ... changes in an iframe get reflected in the top-level URL ←

09:18:38 <yamx> Roland: We will think if we come down anything more this afternoon.

Roland Merrick: We will think if we come down anything more this afternoon. ←

09:19:07 <Steven> Shane: We need to run this past Mark who has a similar mechanism in his implementation

Shane McCarron: We need to run this past Mark who has a similar mechanism in his implementation [ Scribe Assist by Steven Pemberton ] ←

09:19:54 <yamx> Roland: Id, embed content, iframe content itself id duplicate, any qualifying identification. Things arise..

Roland Merrick: Id, embed content, iframe content itself id duplicate, any qualifying identification. Things arise.. ←

09:25:45 <yamx> Steven: talking with Shane to clarifying document-load-event (image loading is not complete).

(No events recorded for 5 minutes)

Steven Pemberton: talking with Shane to clarifying document-load-event (image loading is not complete). ←

09:26:38 <Steven> The question is: is the *document* ready after or before all the <div src=..>s are ready

Steven Pemberton: The question is: is the *document* ready after or before all the <div src=..>s are ready ←

09:26:51 <Steven> DOes it act like img does now, or not

Steven Pemberton: Does it act like img does now, or not ←

09:27:13 <Steven> s/DO/Do/

09:27:25 <oedipus> shouldn't it act as OBJECT was intended?

Unknown oedipus: shouldn't it act as OBJECT was intended? ←

09:27:26 <yamx> Shane: Scripting should be executed inline?

Shane McCarron: Scripting should be executed inline? ←

09:27:52 <yamx> Steven: Declarative.

Steven Pemberton: Declarative. ←

09:28:16 <yamx> Steven: Probably executed, but not during parsing.

Steven Pemberton: Probably executed in document order, but not during parsing. ←

09:28:38 <Steven> s/executed/executed in document order/

09:29:02 <Steven> SHane think that document ready occurs *after* all the sub documents are ready

Steven Pemberton: Shane think that document ready occurs *after* all the sub documents are ready ←

09:29:18 <Steven> .... they are very different from images, which do not have presence in the DOM

Steven Pemberton: .... they are very different from images, which do not have presence in the DOM ←

09:29:25 <Steven> s/SH/Sh/

09:30:49 <Steven> Alessio: I just tried some iframes in current borwsers and the dub documents in an iframe get executed script and all as you would expect

Alessio Cartocci: I just tried some iframes in current browsers and the sub documents in an iframe get executed script and all as you would expect [ Scribe Assist by Steven Pemberton ] ←

09:30:59 <Steven> s/bor/bro/

09:31:09 <Steven> s/dub/sub/

09:31:43 <ShaneM> When they are executed are the executed in the context of the parent document?  Or in their own context?  From a javascript security perspective I mean?

Shane McCarron: When they are executed are the executed in the context of the parent document? Or in their own context? From a javascript security perspective I mean? ←

09:33:18 <Steven> good question

Steven Pemberton: good question ←

09:33:25 <yamx> Roland: IT is something we have to sort out.

Roland Merrick: It is something we have to sort out. ←

09:33:33 <yamx> s/IT/It/

09:33:53 <alessio> I'm trying to do it in the parent document now, shane

Alessio Cartocci: I'm trying to do it in the parent document now, shane ←

09:34:17 <alessio> but the security issues remain, naturally

Alessio Cartocci: but the security issues remain, naturally ←

09:35:01 <yamx> (coffee break, a point of success.)

(coffee break, a point of success.) ←

09:35:49 <yamx> Roland: next agenda after coffee break will be "longdesc".

Roland Merrick: next agenda after coffee break will be "longdesc". ←

09:36:23 <Steven> we are off to the cafe for a coffee Gregory

Steven Pemberton: we are off to the cafe for a coffee Gregory ←

09:56:51 <oedipus> thanks steve

(No events recorded for 20 minutes)

Unknown oedipus: thanks steve ←

10:00:31 <oedipus> Equivalent Content for Images (HTML wiki page by GJR): http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/LongdescRetention

Unknown oedipus: Equivalent Content for Images (HTML wiki page by GJR): http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/LongdescRetention ←

10:06:57 <oedipus> there is a lot of material related to short and long descriptors (PF asked HTML WG for retention of longdesc or a superior mechanism) in the Equivalent Content for Images (HTML wiki page by GJR): http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/LongdescRetention

(No events recorded for 6 minutes)

Unknown oedipus: there is a lot of material related to short and long descriptors (PF asked HTML WG for retention of longdesc or a superior mechanism) in the Equivalent Content for Images (HTML wiki page by GJR): http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/LongdescRetention ←

10:07:00 <Steven> Did you write all that page Gregory?

Steven Pemberton: Did you write all that page Gregory? ←

10:07:22 <oedipus> i wrote most of it, and then added comments and proposals by others, but, yeah, that's my baby

Unknown oedipus: i wrote most of it, and then added comments and proposals by others, but, yeah, that's my baby ←

10:08:04 <Steven> Do you list Google (or search engines) as a consumer of alternate content?

Steven Pemberton: Do you list Google (or search engines) as a consumer of alternate content? ←

10:08:56 <oedipus> one thing that is missing is use of a tree (expand/collapse all) or accordion (expand/collapse individual branches) widget as a long descriptor providing the user with the ability to follow all or selected branches -- gives the equivalent "eureka!" moment that sighted users get from schematics, flow charts, tree grids, etc.

Unknown oedipus: one thing that is missing is use of a tree (expand/collapse all) or accordion (expand/collapse individual branches) widget as a long descriptor providing the user with the ability to follow all or selected branches -- gives the equivalent "eureka!" moment that sighted users get from schematics, flow charts, tree grids, etc. ←

10:09:39 <oedipus> steven, yes, there is discussion of search engines and flickr-type sites on the page (it is quite a long page)

Unknown oedipus: steven, yes, there is discussion of search engines and flickr-type sites on the page (it is quite a long page) ←

10:10:19 <Steven> I personally believe that the only solution is to have the longdesc content in the page, near the equivalent object, otherwise authors will never provide it, nor update it

Steven Pemberton: I personally believe that the only solution is to have the longdesc content in the page, near the equivalent object, otherwise authors will never provide it, nor update it ←

10:11:32 <oedipus> that should be up to the user -- display inline, display as block/iframe/object, display in parallell -- there are a lot of use cases for side-by-side description/image couplets as there is for a linked descriptor (which could always be yanked into a document instance)

Unknown oedipus: that should be up to the user -- display inline, display as block/iframe/object, display in parallell -- there are a lot of use cases for side-by-side description/image couplets as there is for a linked descriptor (which could always be yanked into a document instance) ←

10:12:13 <oedipus> long ugly wiki uri on exposition options:

Unknown oedipus: long ugly wiki uri on exposition options: ←

10:12:14 <oedipus> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/LongdescRetention#head-b737a38d23d16c3474b7a9204a7b70507f30d69a

Unknown oedipus: http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/LongdescRetention#head-b737a38d23d16c3474b7a9204a7b70507f30d69a ←

10:12:22 <Steven> The reason that longdesc has failed to date is that it is too difficult to do, keeping parallel documents

Steven Pemberton: The reason that longdesc has failed to date is that it is too difficult to do, keeping parallel documents ←

10:12:57 <oedipus> that and a lack of support and freaky implementation -- JAWS opens longdesc in a new pop-up window, which pop-up blockers block!

Unknown oedipus: that and a lack of support and freaky implementation -- JAWS opens longdesc in a new pop-up window, which pop-up blockers block! ←

10:13:14 <Steven> The HTML5 groups has the disadvantage of having to be backwards compatible

Steven Pemberton: The HTML5 group has the disadvantage of having to be backwards compatible ←

10:13:39 <Steven> We can adopt better solutions, for instance by allowing img to have content

Steven Pemberton: We can adopt better solutions, for instance by allowing img to have content ←

10:13:45 <Steven> s/groups/group/

10:13:56 <oedipus> true, but the underlying issues remain -- that's what the esw wiki page is an attempt to do -- outline the needs/use cases and come up with a better mousetrap

Unknown oedipus: true, but the underlying issues remain -- that's what the esw wiki page is an attempt to do -- outline the needs/use cases and come up with a better mousetrap ←

10:14:31 <oedipus> IMG as a container would be a consummation devoutly to be wished

Unknown oedipus: IMG as a container would be a consummation devoutly to be wished ←

10:14:49 <oedipus> OBJECT is my preferred solution, only it is broken

Unknown oedipus: OBJECT is my preferred solution, only it is broken ←

10:15:17 <Steven> Actually in XHTML2 all elements behave like object.

Steven Pemberton: Actually in XHTML2 all elements behave like object. ←

10:15:30 <oedipus> that's why i joined the WG!!!

Unknown oedipus: that's why i joined the WG!!! ←

10:15:31 <Steven> <div src="whatever">fallback<.div>

Steven Pemberton: <div src="whatever">fallback<.div> ←

10:15:45 <Steven> good on yer Gergory!

Steven Pemberton: good on yer Gergory! ←

10:15:51 <oedipus> thanks

Unknown oedipus: thanks ←

10:16:27 <oedipus> the name of the wiki page is a relic of issues past -- it should be "Long and Short Descriptors for Static Images" or some such

Unknown oedipus: the name of the wiki page is a relic of issues past -- it should be "Long and Short Descriptors for Static Images" or some such ←

10:18:38 <oedipus> to quote myself from the page:

Unknown oedipus: to quote myself from the page: ←

10:18:40 <oedipus> What is needed, therefore, is a normative list of recommended/expected actions that allow multi-modal interaction with the long description. Treating LONGDESC as HREF isn't the only means of exposing the content of the long description page; the contents -- or the main portion thereof -- could be rendered inline instead of the image or in an IFrame (which has its own accessibility issues) or any other number of means of exposure. The key is that the UA should

Unknown oedipus: What is needed, therefore, is a normative list of recommended/expected actions that allow multi-modal interaction with the long description. Treating LONGDESC as HREF isn't the only means of exposing the content of the long description page; the contents -- or the main portion thereof -- could be rendered inline instead of the image or in an IFrame (which has its own accessibility issues) or any other number of means of exposure. The key is that the UA should ←

10:18:40 <oedipus> * expose in new browser instance

Unknown oedipus: * expose in new browser instance ←

10:18:40 <oedipus> * expose in new browser tab

Unknown oedipus: * expose in new browser tab ←

10:18:41 <oedipus> * expose inline (insert content as object)

Unknown oedipus: * expose inline (insert content as object) ←

10:18:43 <oedipus> * expose inline through the use of IFrame

Unknown oedipus: * expose inline through the use of IFrame ←

10:18:45 <oedipus> * expose the contents of the longdesc document in a side-bar,

Unknown oedipus: * expose the contents of the longdesc document in a side-bar, ←

10:18:47 <oedipus>   aligned with the image it describes

Unknown oedipus: aligned with the image it describes ←

10:18:49 <oedipus> and there are many other options, provided a user knows what to do when encountering a long description, then it matters not what assisstive technology she is using, for there is an expected action in the case of browser x for exposing LONGDESC

Unknown oedipus: and there are many other options, provided a user knows what to do when encountering a long description, then it matters not what assisstive technology she is using, for there is an expected action in the case of browser x for exposing LONGDESC ←

10:20:01 <oedipus> GJR notes that some of the best examples of LONGDESC are in CSS 2.0 -- 46 longdescs in all!

Unknown oedipus: GJR notes that some of the best examples of LONGDESC are in CSS 2.0 -- 46 longdescs in all! ←

10:20:18 <yamx> Shane: "longdesc" attribute is available even when src does not fail.

Shane McCarron: "longdesc" attribute is available even when src does not fail. ←

10:20:54 <oedipus> right: it isn't necessariliy an either/or proposition -- some user groups need guidance through an image

Scribe problem: the name 'right' does not match any of the 9 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Roland Merrick Alessio Cartocci Richard Schwerdtfeger Toshihiko Yamakami Steven Pemberton Shane McCarron Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown right: it isn't necessariliy an either/or proposition -- some user groups need guidance through an image [ Scribe Assist by Unknown oedipus ] ←

10:20:55 <yamx> Steven: "longdesc" is the content of element, we don't need "longdesc" attr.

Steven Pemberton: "longdesc" is the content of element, we don't need "longdesc" attr. ←

10:22:00 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/mod-embedding.html#s_embeddingmodule

Steven Pemberton: http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/mod-embedding.html#s_embeddingmodule ←

10:22:06 <oedipus> GJR: point of reference -- are we discussing M12N section 5.7 "Image Module"

Scribe problem: the name 'GJR' does not match any of the 9 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Roland Merrick Alessio Cartocci Richard Schwerdtfeger Toshihiko Yamakami Steven Pemberton Shane McCarron Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown GJR: point of reference -- are we discussing M12N section 5.7 "Image Module" [ Scribe Assist by Unknown oedipus ] ←

10:22:13 <yamx> Shane: once resource is obtained, the rest of content is not processed.

Shane McCarron: once resource is obtained, the rest of content is not processed. ←

10:22:23 <yamx> Steven: a question: not processed or not presented?.

Steven Pemberton: a question: not processed or not presented?. ←

10:22:35 <ShaneM> we say: If accessing the remote resource fails, for whatever reason (network unavailable, no resource available at the URI given, inability of the user agent to process the type of resource) or an associated ismap attribute fails, the content of the element must be processed instead.

Shane McCarron: we say: If accessing the remote resource fails, for whatever reason (network unavailable, no resource available at the URI given, inability of the user agent to process the type of resource) or an associated ismap attribute fails, the content of the element must be processed instead. ←

10:23:44 <ShaneM> http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/htmlwg/xhtml-m12n-2/abstraction.html#dt_ContentTypes

Shane McCarron: http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/htmlwg/xhtml-m12n-2/abstraction.html#dt_ContentTypes ←

10:24:15 <yamx> Shane: I did not look into public version.

Shane McCarron: I did not look into public version. ←

10:25:52 <yamx> Shane: Issue persists. What happens content nested after a document is resolved?

Shane McCarron: Issue persists. What happens content nested after a document is resolved? ←

10:26:00 <Steven> I think that the alternate text is in the DOM

Steven Pemberton: I think that the alternate text is in the DOM ←

10:26:11 <Steven> ... I think we can define the behaviour with CSS

Steven Pemberton: ... I think we can define the behaviour with CSS ←

10:26:26 <Steven> .... in fact I'm sure that Jonny Axellsson once demonstrated that

Steven Pemberton: .... in fact I'm sure that Jonny Axelsson once demonstrated that ←

10:26:33 <oedipus> it should be in the DOM so it can be reused/accessed by assistive technology/regular users

Unknown oedipus: it should be in the DOM so it can be reused/accessed by assistive technology/regular users ←

10:26:33 <Steven> s/ll/l/

10:27:12 <Steven> ACTION: Steven to add text to embedding module saying how it works

ACTION: Steven to add text to embedding module saying how it works ←

10:29:27 <Steven> Rich says we need some events that say what happens

Steven Pemberton: Rich says we need some events that say what happens ←

10:29:35 <Steven> ... load when a src works I think

Steven Pemberton: ... 'load' when a src works I think ←

10:29:47 <Steven> s/load/'load'/

10:30:37 <Steven> Steven: What should you get if the src fails though?

Steven Pemberton: What should you get if the src fails though? [ Scribe Assist by Steven Pemberton ] ←

10:31:11 <oedipus> GJR: need to ensure that if user needs side-by-side image and descriptor to process the image (limited viewport, congnative issues, etc.) it is readily and easily available

Unknown GJR: need to ensure that if user needs side-by-side image and descriptor to process the image (limited viewport, congnative issues, etc.) it is readily and easily available [ Scribe Assist by Unknown oedipus ] ←

10:32:01 <yamx> Steven: reasons for src failing: (1) network down, (2) 404 or similar.

Steven Pemberton: reasons for src failing: (1) network down, (2) 404 or similar. ←

10:34:11 <yamx> Steven: reviewed error code 406 for HTTP.

Steven Pemberton: reviewed error code 406 for HTTP. ←

10:35:05 <yamx> Roland: you did not get any event in image load finished.

Roland Merrick: you did not get any event in image load finished. ←

10:36:15 <yamx> Roland: DOM3 have anything different.

Roland Merrick: DOM3 don't have anything different. ←

10:37:33 <yamx> s/have/don't have/

10:38:03 <yamx> Steven: DOM went to WebAPI, Rich.

Steven Pemberton: DOM went to WebAPI, Rich. ←

10:39:01 <yamx> Stenven: DOM3 said images are loaded before you get load event.

Scribe problem: the name 'Stenven' does not match any of the 9 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Roland Merrick Alessio Cartocci Richard Schwerdtfeger Toshihiko Yamakami Steven Pemberton Shane McCarron Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Stenven: DOM3 said images are loaded before you get load event. ←

10:39:10 <Steven> "The DOM Implementation finishes loading the resource (such as the document) and any dependent resources (such as images, style sheets, or scripts). "

Steven Pemberton: "The DOM Implementation finishes loading the resource (such as the document) and any dependent resources (such as images, style sheets, or scripts). " ←

10:39:18 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Events/events.html

Steven Pemberton: http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Events/events.html ←

10:40:17 <Steven> Event "error": A resource failed to load, or has been loaded but cannot be interpreted according to its semantics such as an invalid image, a script execution error, or non-well-formed XML.

Steven Pemberton: Event "error": A resource failed to load, or has been loaded but cannot be interpreted according to its semantics such as an invalid image, a script execution error, or non-well-formed XML. ←

10:41:43 <yamx> Roland: Let's see new charter for WebAPI to check DOM3s...

Roland Merrick: Let's see new charter for WebAPI to check DOM3s... ←

10:42:05 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-webapi-minutes.html

Steven Pemberton: http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-webapi-minutes.html ←

10:42:09 <Steven> minutes of a recent call

Steven Pemberton: minutes of a recent call ←

10:42:47 <Steven>  Zakim: leaving. As of this point the attendees were Carmelo, Andrew_Emmons, anne, shepazu

Steven Pemberton: Zakim: leaving. As of this point the attendees were Carmelo, Andrew_Emmons, anne, shepazu ←

10:45:36 <yamx> Shane: DOM3 Events use qnames?

Shane McCarron: DOM3 Events use qnames? ←

10:46:53 <yamx> Roland: no search result for qname.

Roland Merrick: no search result for qname. ←

10:47:01 <yamx> Steven: BUt they have namespaced events.

Steven Pemberton: But they have namespaced events. ←

10:47:10 <Steven> s/BU/Bu/

10:48:49 <yamx> Roland and Steven: We don't need "longdesc" attr. Stenven will add clarifying text for embedded context. (already ACTION for Steven)

Roland and Steven: We don't need "longdesc" attr. Steven will add clarifying text for embedded context. (already ACTION for Steven) ←

10:49:07 <yamx> s/Stenven/Steven/

10:49:52 <yamx> Roland: alternative to src.

Roland Merrick: alternative to src. ←

10:50:13 <yamx> Steven: Added (3) images switched off, at flipchart.

Steven Pemberton: Added (3) images switched off, at flipchart. ←

10:51:13 <yamx> .. after (2) 404/406 or similar.

.. after (2) 404/406 or similar. ←

10:54:52 <Steven> In css, you say img[src] {content: attr(src)}

Steven Pemberton: In css, you say img[src] {content: attr(src)} ←

10:55:29 <Steven> so in principle you can switch between displaying the image and the content

Steven Pemberton: so in principle you can switch between displaying the image and the content ←

10:55:51 <oedipus> GJR: that "principle" needs to be explicitly stated

Unknown GJR: that "principle" needs to be explicitly stated [ Scribe Assist by Unknown oedipus ] ←

10:55:52 <Steven> (but the CSS doesn't give you control over @srctype)

Steven Pemberton: (but the CSS doesn't give you control over @srctype) ←

10:56:28 <Steven> In any case the alternate content is in the dom, so is available for use as necessary

Steven Pemberton: In any case the alternate content is in the dom, so is available for use as necessary ←

10:56:45 <oedipus> amen

Unknown oedipus: amen ←

10:57:26 <yamx> Steven: poping stack for a few levels, back to "longdesc".

Steven Pemberton: poping stack for a few levels, back to "longdesc". ←

10:57:56 <yamx> Roland: how we can style both?

Roland Merrick: how we can style both? ←

10:58:58 <yamx> Steven: in CSS, content: means replacement with external resource. (Stven went to flipchart to argue)

Steven Pemberton: in CSS, content: means replacement with external resource. (Steven went to flipchart to argue) ←

10:59:10 <yamx> s/Stven/Steven/

11:02:34 <yamx> Roland: CSS cannot do fallback at failure.

Roland Merrick: CSS cannot do fallback at failure. ←

11:03:06 <yamx> Steven: *[src]:error, you can invent pseudo-class in that case.

Steven Pemberton: *[src]:error, you can invent pseudo-class in that case. ←

11:03:40 <yamx> Steven: We don't know it is allowed, but let's assume it allowed...

Steven Pemberton: We don't know it is allowed, but let's assume it allowed... ←

11:04:13 <yamx> Steven: *[src]:before

Steven Pemberton: *[src]:before ←

11:04:27 <yamx> Steven:           {content: attr(src)}

Steven Pemberton: {content: attr(src)} ←

11:04:41 <yamx> Steven:  *[src]{display:none}

Steven Pemberton: *[src]{display:none} ←

11:04:55 <yamx> Steven: body.nosrc *[src] {display:blank}

Steven Pemberton: body.nosrc *[src] {display:block} ←

11:05:07 <yamx> Steven: body.nosrc *[src]:before

Steven Pemberton: body.nosrc *[src]:before ←

11:05:14 <yamx> Steven:                        {content: ""}

Steven Pemberton: {content: ""} ←

11:05:26 <yamx> Steven: *[src]:error

Steven Pemberton: *[src]:error ←

11:06:18 <oedipus> steven, will that {content: "foo";} make it into the DOM?  currently, CSS-generated text isn't in the DOM and isn't accessible to assistive tech

Unknown oedipus: steven, will that {content: "foo";} make it into the DOM? currently, CSS-generated text isn't in the DOM and isn't accessible to assistive tech ←

11:06:19 <yamx> Steven described an error case with src="foo.xdiv" srctype="vide/xdiv"

Steven described an error case with src="foo.xdiv" srctype="vide/xdiv" ←

11:09:19 <oedipus> UAAG (user agent accessibility guidelines WG) is trying to address CSS- and script-generated text, UAAG2 has a proposed requirement that ALL text, no matter what its source, must be made available via the DOM or directly to an accessibility API (such as MSAA, IAccessible2, ATK/AT-SPI, etc.

Unknown oedipus: UAAG (user agent accessibility guidelines WG) is trying to address CSS- and script-generated text, UAAG2 has a proposed requirement that ALL text, no matter what its source, must be made available via the DOM or directly to an accessibility API (such as MSAA, IAccessible2, ATK/AT-SPI, etc. ←

11:12:33 <yamx> Roland: we will talk XML Event 2 after lunch break.

Roland Merrick: we will talk XML Events 2 after lunch break. ←

11:12:56 <yamx> s/Event 2/Events 2/

11:13:54 <oedipus> when will we resume?  how much time are you breaking for lunch?

Unknown oedipus: when will we resume? how much time are you breaking for lunch? ←

11:14:45 <Steven> s/display:blank/display:block/

11:15:32 <Steven> Gregory, I expect lunch will be an hour

Steven Pemberton: Gregory, I expect lunch will be an hour ←

11:16:43 <oedipus> thanks - now if only i had a left-over canoli (sp?) to eat for breakfast...

Unknown oedipus: thanks - now if only i had a left-over canoli (sp?) to eat for breakfast... ←

11:16:52 <Steven> Gregory, wrt your content: question

Steven Pemberton: Gregory, wrt your content: question ←

11:17:03 <oedipus> yeah

Unknown oedipus: yeah ←

11:17:10 <Steven> I didn't put any real content there

Steven Pemberton: I didn't put any real content there ←

11:17:16 <Steven> in one case it is the embedded image

Steven Pemberton: in one case it is the embedded image ←

11:17:40 <Steven> in the other case, the embedded image is overwritten with 'nothing' (empty string)

Steven Pemberton: in the other case, the embedded image is overwritten with 'nothing' (empty string) ←

11:17:46 <Steven> the dom remains the same in both cases

Steven Pemberton: the dom remains the same in both cases ←

11:17:55 <Steven> (I think)

Steven Pemberton: (I think) ←

11:18:18 <Steven> and the DOM contains the URL of the image, and the alternate content, both of which reside in the DOM without change

Steven Pemberton: and the DOM contains the URL of the image, and the alternate content, both of which reside in the DOM without change ←

11:18:33 <oedipus> do you think the UAAG2 req unreasonable?

Unknown oedipus: do you think the UAAG2 req unreasonable? ←

11:18:40 <Steven> and so is accessible to any software that wants to make use of it

Steven Pemberton: and so is accessible to any software that wants to make use of it ←

11:18:47 <oedipus> ok

Unknown oedipus: ok ←

11:19:14 <Steven> I have no problem with the UAAG2 requirement

Steven Pemberton: I have no problem with the UAAG2 requirement ←

11:19:26 <oedipus> that's certainly good to hear

Unknown oedipus: that's certainly good to hear ←

11:19:40 <Steven> In fact it is a pain when you copy a numbered list, and don't get the numbers in the copy buffer

Steven Pemberton: In fact it is a pain when you copy a numbered list, and don't get the numbers in the copy buffer ←

11:19:40 <oedipus> the tricky bit is wording it correctly

Unknown oedipus: the tricky bit is wording it correctly ←

11:19:55 <Steven> because of the generated content problem

Steven Pemberton: because of the generated content problem ←

11:20:26 <yamx> Rich: Guideline for browser for markup?

Richard Schwerdtfeger: Guideline for browser for markup? ←

11:20:30 <oedipus> if CSS is used to control list styling, one doesn't get that info from an assistive tech - it uses the "dumb" nesting default algorithm

Unknown oedipus: if CSS is used to control list styling, one doesn't get that info from an assistive tech - it uses the "dumb" nesting default algorithm ←

11:20:45 <yamx> Shane: we provided default CSS for XHMTL2.

Shane McCarron: we provided default CSS for XHMTL2. ←

11:20:52 <Steven> But for instance Gergory, XForms which also generates content, amongst other places via repeats talks of a shadom tree (or DOM)

Steven Pemberton: But for instance Gregory, XForms which also generates content, amongst other places via repeats talks of a shadow tree (or DOM) ←

11:20:58 <Steven> so you have two DOMs

Steven Pemberton: so you have two DOMs ←

11:21:17 <oedipus> that's the tricky bit UAAG is trying to deal with -- multiple DOMs

Unknown oedipus: that's the tricky bit UAAG is trying to deal with -- multiple DOMs ←

11:21:18 <yamx> Shane: Browser people complained "don't constrain browsers".

Shane McCarron: Browser people complained "don't constrain browsers". ←

11:21:20 <Steven> s/Ger/Gre/

11:21:55 <oedipus> browser people are always complaining -- just like their users!!!

Unknown oedipus: browser people are always complaining -- just like their users!!! ←

11:22:59 <Steven> s/shadom/shadow/

11:23:16 <oedipus> steven, your point about copying content with CSS-generated text is a mirror of the AT user's problem, only it is constant, not situational

Unknown oedipus: steven, your point about copying content with CSS-generated text is a mirror of the AT user's problem, only it is constant, not situational ←

11:24:18 <yamx> Shane: I have an action item to turn OWL into RDFa.

Shane McCarron: I have an action item to turn OWL into RDFa. ←

11:24:27 <yamx> .. at the end of role spec.

.. at the end of role spec. ←

11:24:33 <Steven> ack that Gregory

Steven Pemberton: ack that Gregory ←

11:25:23 <oedipus> rich, i'm not sure i understand your question -- UAAG guideline would be markup agnostic -- if something's writing to the visual palette, capture it in the DOM or expose it directly to an accessibility API is what UAAG is discussing

Unknown oedipus: rich, i'm not sure i understand your question -- UAAG guideline would be markup agnostic -- if something's writing to the visual palette, capture it in the DOM or expose it directly to an accessibility API is what UAAG is discussing ←

11:26:03 <yamx> Steven: at the end of vocab, RDFa is readable for human and machine, everyone happy.

Steven Pemberton: at the end of vocab, RDFa is readable for human and machine, everyone happy. ←

11:26:18 <ShaneM> Creative Commons stuff in RDFa: http://creativecommons.org/ns#

Shane McCarron: Creative Commons stuff in RDFa: http://creativecommons.org/ns# ←

11:26:59 <yamx> Lunch break.

Lunch break. ←

11:27:37 <Steven> Pity that they use the wrong DOCTYPE. Otherwise COOL!

Steven Pemberton: Pity that they use the wrong DOCTYPE. Otherwise COOL! ←

11:28:43 <yamx> (we really go to lunch, now...)

(we really go to lunch, now...) ←

11:28:45 <oedipus> goda del pranzo, tutto

Unknown oedipus: goda del pranzo, tutto ←

13:16:17 <Steven> back finally

(No events recorded for 107 minutes)

Steven Pemberton: back finally ←

13:16:30 <Steven> sorry, slow service

Steven Pemberton: sorry, slow service ←

13:16:38 <oedipus> no comment...

Unknown oedipus: no comment... ←

13:19:21 <yamx> (People are back from Lunch)

(People are back from Lunch) ←

13:22:46 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes

Steven Pemberton: rrsagent, make minutes ←

13:22:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/19-xhtml-minutes.html Steven

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/19-xhtml-minutes.html Steven ←

13:22:59 <Steven> Present+Simone Onofri

Steven Pemberton: Present+Simone Onofri ←

13:24:28 <Steven> s/Brat/Bratt/G

13:24:50 <ShaneM> Mark sent belated regrets for today.  I have not yet determined if he might be available tomorrow.

Shane McCarron: Mark sent belated regrets for today. I have not yet determined if he might be available tomorrow. ←

13:25:30 <oedipus> Shane, thou art the bearer of bad news, but since i took a vow not to shoot the messenger...

Unknown oedipus: Shane, thou art the bearer of bad news, but since i took a vow not to shoot the messenger... ←

13:26:17 <Steven> RDFa is rather eating up his time

Steven Pemberton: RDFa is rather eating up his time ←

13:27:04 <Steven> shane, ringing

Steven Pemberton: shane, ringing ←

13:27:05 <oedipus> but it tastes SO GOOD

Unknown oedipus: but it tastes SO GOOD ←

13:27:50 <Steven> shane? ShaneM?

Steven Pemberton: shane? ShaneM? ←

13:28:40 <Steven> Simone is an IWA member

Steven Pemberton: Simone is an IWA member ←

13:28:49 <Steven> ... and a member of SWD

Steven Pemberton: ... and a member of SWD ←

13:29:21 <Steven> ... and is involved with RDFa

Steven Pemberton: ... and is involved with RDFa ←

13:29:57 <Steven> ... attends the RDFa calls

Steven Pemberton: ... attends the RDFa calls ←

13:30:39 <yamx> Topic: XML Events 2

3. XML Events 2

13:30:53 <oedipus> q+ to ask question via IRC

Unknown oedipus: q+ to ask question via IRC ←

13:30:54 <Roland_> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2007/ED-xml-events-20071114/

Roland Merrick: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2007/ED-xml-events-20071114/ ←

13:31:07 <Steven> ack oedipus

Steven Pemberton: ack oedipus ←

13:31:09 <oedipus> i know what the WG has said, and what Section 3.3. "Attaching Attributes Directly to the Handler Element" says, but isn't there still a need for a "purpose" element/property for event handler?  shouldn't that be part of the core architecture?  it is needed for, amongst other things, providing a foundation on which to build "expert handlers for specialized markup" for assistive technologies:

Unknown oedipus: i know what the WG has said, and what Section 3.3. "Attaching Attributes Directly to the Handler Element" says, but isn't there still a need for a "purpose" element/property for event handler? shouldn't that be part of the core architecture? it is needed for, amongst other things, providing a foundation on which to build "expert handlers for specialized markup" for assistive technologies: ←

13:31:09 <oedipus> http://accessibility.linux-foundation.org/a11yspecs/handlers/uuc1.html

Unknown oedipus: http://accessibility.linux-foundation.org/a11yspecs/handlers/uuc1.html ←

13:31:09 <oedipus> and http://www.linux-foundation.org/en/Accessibility/Handlers/UseCases/Unified/ScratchPad

Unknown oedipus: and http://www.linux-foundation.org/en/Accessibility/Handlers/UseCases/Unified/ScratchPad ←

13:31:09 <oedipus> (don't let the domain name fool you -- this is a proposal from the Open Accessibility Workgroup formerly of the FreeStandards Group (FSG) which is platform agnostic

Unknown oedipus: (don't let the domain name fool you -- this is a proposal from the Open Accessibility Workgroup formerly of the FreeStandards Group (FSG) which is platform agnostic ←

13:32:43 <ShaneM> cant we just use "role" for that Gregory?

Shane McCarron: cant we just use "role" for that Gregory? ←

13:33:12 <oedipus> thinking...

Unknown oedipus: thinking... ←

13:33:17 <oedipus> RichS?

Unknown oedipus: RichS? ←

13:33:28 <yamx> Roland: I have a suggestion, found in a thread...

Roland Merrick: I have a suggestion, found in a thread... ←

13:33:33 <Roland_> I commented on this topic a while ago: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Nov/0020.html

Roland Merrick: I commented on this topic a while ago: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Nov/0020.html ←

13:33:48 <oedipus> thanks for pointer - am checking

Unknown oedipus: thanks for pointer - am checking ←

13:35:01 <oedipus> roland, i am intrigued by your ideas, and would like to subscribe to your newsletter...

Unknown oedipus: roland, i am intrigued by your ideas, and would like to subscribe to your newsletter... ←

13:35:16 <Steven> Another two long pages for us to digest Gregory :-)

Steven Pemberton: Another two long pages for us to digest Gregory :-) ←

13:35:23 <oedipus> seriously, you raise an excellent point

Unknown oedipus: seriously, you raise an excellent point ←

13:35:33 <oedipus> steven, i guess i speed listen

Unknown oedipus: steven, i guess i speed listen ←

13:36:08 <yamx> Shane: Purpose disapeared thanks to "role".

Shane McCarron: Purpose disapeared thanks to "role". ←

13:36:57 <yamx> Roland: adding info for human is complementary.

Roland Merrick: adding info for human is complementary. ←

13:37:38 <oedipus> but, shane, isn't there a case for defining a specific role for the task?  roland's example of a <hint> is a good example of author abuse, like saying "go get a real browser" in a NOFRAMES (sorry roland)

Unknown oedipus: but, shane, isn't there a case for defining a specific role for the task? roland's example of a <hint> is a good example of author abuse, like saying "go get a real browser" in a NOFRAMES (sorry roland) ←

13:38:09 <oedipus> it doesn't tell anything human or machine parseable, is what i mean

Unknown oedipus: it doesn't tell anything human or machine parseable, is what i mean ←

13:38:40 <ShaneM> well - @role should be machine parseable.  human readable is another, potentially important area

Shane McCarron: well - @role should be machine parseable. human readable is another, potentially important area ←

13:39:32 <Steven> Gregory, how do you see the purpose element being used in accessible software?

Steven Pemberton: Gregory, how do you see the purpose element being used in accessible software? ←

13:40:55 <oedipus> the expert handler will probably be an ontological interpreter that facillitates read/write access for users of AT (assistive tech) - it needs to communicate to the AT info that allows for meaningful 2-way communication with specialized markup languages, so that each AT doesn't have to implement specific handlers for specific SMLs (specialized markup languages)

Unknown oedipus: the expert handler will probably be an ontological interpreter that facillitates read/write access for users of AT (assistive tech) - it needs to communicate to the AT info that allows for meaningful 2-way communication with specialized markup languages, so that each AT doesn't have to implement specific handlers for specific SMLs (specialized markup languages) ←

13:41:42 <oedipus> it is specialized middle-ware that will rely  on OWL or RDF, most likely (er, if i had my way)

Unknown oedipus: it is specialized middle-ware that will rely on OWL or RDF, most likely (er, if i had my way) ←

13:42:13 <Steven> So if a handler had a label element (for instance), that briefly described the purpose, is that enough?

Steven Pemberton: So if a handler had a label element (for instance), that briefly described the purpose, is that enough? ←

13:42:21 <oedipus> yes

Unknown oedipus: yes ←

13:42:25 <oedipus> what does rich think?

Unknown oedipus: what does rich think? ←

13:42:37 <Steven> He just said "That'll work"

Steven Pemberton: He just said "That'll work" ←

13:42:45 <oedipus> i think so to

Unknown oedipus: i think so too ←

13:42:49 <oedipus> s/to/too

13:43:09 <yamx> Roland: talked about xForms, hint, label, and role.

Roland Merrick: talked about xForms, hint, label, and role. ←

13:43:57 <oedipus> problem with assistive tech is that everything is done through keyboard overlays -- case in point -- i have to go into "table navigation" mode to make sense of anything in a TABLE, but when i ReadAll, the table is read from top lefthand corner to bottom righthand corner, forcing me to stop at EVERY table in a document if i am to understand what probably should have been in a DL in the first place

Unknown oedipus: problem with assistive tech is that everything is done through keyboard overlays -- case in point -- i have to go into "table navigation" mode to make sense of anything in a TABLE, but when i ReadAll, the table is read from top lefthand corner to bottom righthand corner, forcing me to stop at EVERY table in a document if i am to understand what probably should have been in a DL in the first place ←

13:45:14 <oedipus> it is even worse when there is an HTML form in the table, as FIELDSET, LEGEND, and LABEL aren't legal in HTML4x/XHTML1.0 tables

Unknown oedipus: it is even worse when there is an HTML form in the table, as FIELDSET, LEGEND, and LABEL aren't legal in HTML4x/XHTML1.0 tables ←

13:46:47 <yamx> Shane:table discussion does not relate to event handler.

Shane McCarron: table discussion does not relate to event handler. ←

13:46:48 <oedipus> there is a separate "forms mode" which doesn't tell you anything about the table containing the form, so one has to switch to "table navigation" which means one no longer knows what state (or even what INPUT type) the form control he/she is attempting to contextualize

Unknown oedipus: there is a separate "forms mode" which doesn't tell you anything about the table containing the form, so one has to switch to "table navigation" which means one no longer knows what state (or even what INPUT type) the form control he/she is attempting to contextualize ←

13:47:08 <oedipus> ok, i'll get off my high horse, shane...

Unknown oedipus: ok, i'll get off my high horse, shane... ←

13:47:30 <Steven> (Shane's comment was an explanation, not a complaint)

Steven Pemberton: (Shane's comment was an explanation, not a complaint) ←

13:48:04 <oedipus> should have added a <wink>

Unknown oedipus: should have added a <wink> ←

13:48:39 <yamx> Shane: separate module, scope event, qname in DOM3. that leading to this, Roland.

Shane McCarron: separate module, scope event, qname in DOM3. that leading to this, Roland. ←

13:49:13 <yamx> Roland: DOM Level 2 interface, rather than Level 3.

Roland Merrick: DOM Level 2 interface, rather than Level 3. ←

13:49:42 <oedipus> GJR: just want to re-iterate that i am open to a label or some other named element that briefly described the purpose of the handler

Unknown GJR: just want to re-iterate that i am open to a label or some other named element that briefly described the purpose of the handler [ Scribe Assist by Unknown oedipus ] ←

13:51:32 <yamx> Steven: We originally put script only when it does not support following name spaces.

Steven Pemberton: We originally put script only when it does not support following name spaces. ←

13:51:53 <yamx> .. for legacy cases.

.. for legacy cases. ←

13:52:12 <ShaneM> This might be useful for understanding what is different:  http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2007/ED-xml-events-20071114/xml-events-rec-diff.html

Shane McCarron: This might be useful for understanding what is different: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2007/ED-xml-events-20071114/xml-events-rec-diff.html ←

13:52:20 <yamx> (Steven wrote an example for script element in a flipchart.)

(Steven wrote an example for script element in a flipchart.) ←

13:52:44 <oedipus> yam, you are doing an EXCELLENT job of minuting

Unknown oedipus: yam, you are doing an EXCELLENT job of minuting ←

13:53:16 <yamx> thank you.

thank you. ←

13:53:28 <oedipus> thank you!

Unknown oedipus: thank you! ←

13:53:57 <yamx> <script src="xhtml.js" type="...." implements="Ns URI" />

13:54:26 <yamx> Steven: should we put into XHMTL2 or hander spec?

Steven Pemberton: should we put into XHTML2 or hander spec? ←

13:55:02 <oedipus> can i raise both hands?

Unknown oedipus: can i raise both hands? ←

13:55:09 <Steven> So I propose adding in XML Events 2 <script src="xforms.js" type="..." implements="... NS URI ..." />

Steven Pemberton: So I propose adding in XML Events 2 <script src="xforms.js" type="..." implements="... NS URI ..." /> ←

13:55:18 <yamx> s/XHMTL2/XHTML2/

13:55:34 <oedipus> i think that would work, steven

Unknown oedipus: i think that would work, steven ←

13:56:03 <Steven> @implements tells the system that if they have an implementation of that NS, ignore this scrpt

Steven Pemberton: @implements tells the system that if they have an implementation of that NS, ignore this scrpt ←

13:57:32 <Steven> Shane: We can also do that with an @if that checks HASFEATURE

Shane McCarron: We can also do that with an @if that checks HASFEATURE [ Scribe Assist by Steven Pemberton ] ←

13:57:56 <Steven> ... so @implements is then a shorthand

Steven Pemberton: ... so @implements is then a shorthand ←

13:58:47 <Steven> present+Gerrie

Steven Pemberton: present+Gerrie ←

13:58:54 <oedipus> that makes sense to me (which should alarm you, steven!)

Unknown oedipus: that makes sense to me (which should alarm you, shane!) ←

13:58:55 <gshults> Good morning

Scribe problem: the name 'gshults' does not match any of the 9 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Roland Merrick Alessio Cartocci Richard Schwerdtfeger Toshihiko Yamakami Steven Pemberton Shane McCarron Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown gshults: Good morning ←

13:59:00 <yamx> Roland: this XML Events 2 defines two modules (events, handler).

Roland Merrick: this XML Events 2 defines two modules (events, handler). ←

13:59:10 <Steven> Shane will skype you Gerrie

Steven Pemberton: Shane will skype you Gerrie ←

13:59:15 <Steven> to save bandwidth at this end

Steven Pemberton: to save bandwidth at this end ←

13:59:17 <gshults> OK

Unknown gshults: OK ←

13:59:41 <oedipus> s/steven!/shane!

14:00:16 <Steven> Yam: I have a minor comment

Toshihiko Yamakami: I have a minor comment [ Scribe Assist by Steven Pemberton ] ←

14:01:25 <yamx> Yam: new version of HTML in "introduction" is umbiquious now. To XHTML.

Toshihiko Yamakami: new version of HTML in "introduction" is umbiquious now. To XHTML. ←

14:01:26 <Steven> ... we should s/a new version of HTML/a new version of XHTML/ in the intro

Steven Pemberton: ... we should s/a new version of HTML/a new version of XHTML/ in the intro ←

14:02:56 <yamx> Yam: All XML applications in W3C follows this "XML Event 2"?

Toshihiko Yamakami: All XML applications in W3C follows this "XML Event 2"? ←

14:03:09 <yamx> Steven: Yes.

Steven Pemberton: Probably. ←

14:03:38 <yamx> s/Yes./Probably./

14:03:58 <Steven> Not all XML applications use it, though they all could (if they use DOM Events)

Steven Pemberton: Not all XML applications use it, though they all could (if they use DOM Events) ←

14:04:50 <yamx> Steven: In the past, some groups mentioned they had some special requirements, but no, they had a same problem.

Steven Pemberton: In the past, some groups mentioned they had some special requirements, but no, they had a same problem. ←

14:06:34 <yamx> Roland: Introduction needs updating, covering handerls.

Roland Merrick: Introduction needs updating, covering handlers. ←

14:06:38 <Steven> ... which was that parts of the DOM tree can be unavailable at times

Steven Pemberton: ... which was that parts of the DOM tree can be unavailable at times ←

14:06:43 <yamx> s/handerls/handlers/

14:06:48 <ShaneM> ACTION: Shane to update intro to XML Events to reflect its current scope of Handlers and Events.

ACTION: Shane to update intro to XML Events to reflect its current scope of Handlers and Events. ←

14:06:59 <Steven> ... and when the part of the tree is unavailable, they musn't generate events, nor handle them

Steven Pemberton: ... and when the part of the tree is unavailable, they musn't generate events, nor handle them ←

14:08:22 <yamx> Steven: XHTML2 says that it uses XML Events 2. XML Events 2 will decide whether DOM2 or DOM3 event.

Steven Pemberton: XHTML2 says that it uses XML Events 2. XML Events 2 will decide whether DOM2 or DOM3 event. ←

14:09:30 <yamx> Roland: fall-back is in XHTML2.

Roland Merrick: fall-back is in XHTML2. ←

14:10:02 <yamx> Roland: DOM2 did not have load error.

Roland Merrick: DOM2 did not have load error. ←

14:10:18 <Steven> It sounds like we need DOM3 events since it has the new-style load event, and the error event

Steven Pemberton: It sounds like we need DOM3 events since it has the new-style load event, and the error event ←

14:10:54 <yamx> Roland: how about just put a note in XHTML2.

Roland Merrick: how about just put a note in XHTML2. ←

14:11:47 <yamx> Roland: put a note in XML Event 2.

Roland Merrick: put a note in XML Event 2. ←

14:12:41 <yamx> Shane: It says DOM2 and qname in the current spec.

Shane McCarron: It says DOM2 and qname in the current spec. ←

14:13:03 <yamx> Steven: last week, Form group met.

Steven Pemberton: last week, Form group met. ←

14:13:15 <yamx> ... hopefully seriously going, now.

... hopefully seriously going, now. ←

14:13:38 <yamx> Roland: propose to switch for DOM 3 Event.

Roland Merrick: propose to switch for DOM 3 Event. ←

14:15:00 <yamx> Roland: let's refer to the last published.

Roland Merrick: let's refer to the last published. ←

14:15:17 <yamx> RESOLUTION: XML Event 2 will be based on DOM 3 Event.

RESOLVED: XML Events 2 will be based on DOM 3 Events. ←

14:15:26 <yamx> s/Event/Events/

14:17:10 <yamx> Shane: the current DOM 3 spec has how to map qname in DOM2 compatible.

Shane McCarron: the current DOM 3 spec has how to map qname in DOM2 compatible. ←

14:18:57 <yamx> ACTION: Shane to update "Introduction"(HTML->XHTML) and references to DOM3.

ACTION: Shane to update "Introduction"(HTML->XHTML) and references to DOM3. ←

14:19:56 <yamx> Shane: XML Event  1 shortname will result in the same doc..

Shane McCarron: XML Event 1 shortname will result in the same doc.. ←

14:20:42 <yamx> Roland: no suffix, XML Event shortname.

Roland Merrick: no suffix, XML Event shortname. ←

14:21:46 <yamx> Roland: green part, chameleon namespace at the end of 2.1 Document Conformance.

Roland Merrick: green part, chameleon namespace at the end of 2.1 Document Conformance. ←

14:22:49 <yamx> Shane: conceptually supercedes any markuplanguage. implementers can magically deal with. That is an issue.

Shane McCarron: conceptually supercedes any markup language. implementers can magically deal with? That is an issue. ←

14:23:03 <yamx> s/with./with?/

14:23:51 <yamx> Shane: It is Mark's issue, he is not here.

Shane McCarron: It is Mark's issue, he is not here. ←

14:24:09 <yamx> s/markuplanguage/markup language/

14:26:10 <yamx> Roland: regardless of markup language, general processor does. built-in does.

Roland Merrick: regardless of markup language, general processor does. built-in does. ←

14:26:39 <yamx> Roland: we are not sure about what the implications are for implementors.

Roland Merrick: we are not sure about what the implications are for implementors. ←

14:27:45 <yamx> Roland: do we have proforma text, highlighting features for asertions?

Roland Merrick: do we have proforma text, highlighting features for assertions? ←

14:27:52 <yamx> s/asertions/assertions/

14:28:40 <yamx> Roland: machine extracting assertiosn for conformance testing, it is not available now.

Roland Merrick: machine extracting assertiosn for conformance testing, it is not available now. ←

14:29:44 <yamx> Roland: proforma text, it will be dealt separately.

Roland Merrick: proforma text, it will be dealt separately. ←

14:29:48 <ShaneM> new shortname should be xml-events2 whilst we are developing.

Shane McCarron: new shortname should be xml-events2 whilst we are developing. ←

14:32:21 <yamx> Shane: we need xml id in an explicit way? Steven?

Shane McCarron: we need xml id in an explicit way? Steven? ←

14:32:48 <yamx> Steven: We definitely need it.

Steven Pemberton: We definitely need it. ←

14:34:27 <yamx> Roland: default action, can we stop it? decision in listner?

Roland Merrick: default action, can we stop it? decision in listner? ←

14:34:50 <yamx> Shane: we have it in handler section.

Shane McCarron: we have it in handler section. ←

14:35:26 <yamx> Roland: precedence perform and prevent?

Roland Merrick: precedence issue, perform and prevent? ←

14:35:43 <yamx> s/precedence/precedence issue,/

14:36:29 <Steven> We recommend this syntax for latest version URIs:

Steven Pemberton: We recommend this syntax for latest version URIs: ←

14:36:40 <Steven> When a Working Group follows this scheme, Director approval of short names is not required; the Communications Team can allocate them (provided they are reasonable, not offensive, etc.).

Steven Pemberton: When a Working Group follows this scheme, Director approval of short names is not required; the Communications Team can allocate them (provided they are reasonable, not offensive, etc.). ←

14:36:48 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/2005/05/tr-versions

Steven Pemberton: http://www.w3.org/2005/05/tr-versions ←

14:37:07 <yamx> Steven: it is XPath 1.

Steven Pemberton: it is XPath 1. ←

14:39:38 <ShaneM> Note that we explicitly only require a subset of XPath semantics: XML Events XPath expressions have no context node, and so the context position is 0 and the context size is 0. There are no variable bindings, and the function library contains the functions described below. It is not necessary to provide namespace declarations.

Shane McCarron: Note that we explicitly only require a subset of XPath semantics: XML Events XPath expressions have no context node, and so the context position is 0 and the context size is 0. There are no variable bindings, and the function library contains the functions described below. It is not necessary to provide namespace declarations. ←

14:40:42 <yamx> Shane: 3.1 Listner element, there is Editor's note, which we deferred.

Shane McCarron: 3.1 Listener element, there is Editor's note, which we deferred. ←

14:41:00 <yamx> s/Listner/Listener/

14:41:20 <yamx> Roland: URI is in the universe, security risk.

Roland Merrick: URI is in the universe, security risk. ←

14:42:30 <yamx> Roland: keep id, for compatibility. Introducing URL later.

Roland Merrick: keep id, for compatibility. Introducing URL later. ←

14:43:38 <yamx> Roland: Dispatcher element has target child attribute.

Roland Merrick: Dispatcher element has target child attribute. ←

14:45:01 <yamx> Shane: we defined them in global for target.

Shane McCarron: we defined them in global for target. ←

14:45:07 <yamx> (Steven just came back)

(Steven just came back) ←

14:45:56 <yamx> Shane: observer can be URI. it is an issue.

Shane McCarron: observer can be URI? it is an issue. ←

14:46:06 <yamx> s/URI./URI?/

14:46:59 <yamx> Roland: I proposed we create observeuri if we need one.

Roland Merrick: I proposed we create observeuri attribute if we need one, later. ←

14:47:10 <yamx> s/uri/uri attribute/

14:47:24 <yamx> s/one/one, later/

14:47:49 <yamx> Roland: I propse the current Editor's note.

Roland Merrick: I propose to remove the current Editor's note. ←

14:47:56 <yamx> s/propse/propose/

14:48:09 <yamx> s/the current/to remove the current/

14:48:22 <yamx> Roland: I propose the text as it is (with removing Editor's Note).

Roland Merrick: I propose the text as it is (with removing Editor's Note). ←

14:49:06 <yamx> Roland: while.

Roland Merrick: while. ←

14:49:07 <ShaneM> @ev:while has this note:  EDITORS' NOTE: Can't think of an example that only makes use of what we have in this spec, i.e., the event() function. We may need to do something like delete a list in XForms.

Shane McCarron: @ev:while has this note: EDITORS' NOTE: Can't think of an example that only makes use of what we have in this spec, i.e., the event() function. We may need to do something like delete a list in XForms. ←

14:49:28 <yamx> Steven: Original use case is to repeat it until some condition is satisfied, in XForms.

Steven Pemberton: Original use case is to repeat it until some condition is satisfied, in XForms. ←

14:50:22 <yamx> (Steven went to a flipchart to describe an example for Roland.)

(Steven went to a flipchart to describe an example for Roland.) ←

14:51:04 <yamx> (delete all sort of dates, if they exists out of date nodes...)

(delete all sort of dates, if they exists out of date nodes...) ←

14:51:47 <yamx> <trigger ev:event="DOMActivate"

<trigger ev:event="DOMActivate" ←

14:51:56 <yamx>  <label< delete all sort of datels </label>

<label< delete all sort of datels </label> ←

14:52:16 <yamx>  <actionwhile="exists(outdeated)" <delete node>

<acton while="exists(outdated)" <delete node> ←

14:52:21 <yamx>  </action>

</action> ←

14:52:32 <yamx> s/<actionwhile/<acton while/

14:54:12 <yamx> s/deated/dated/

14:55:08 <yamx> Roland: Section 4, table there. action elements say..

Roland Merrick: Section 4, table there. action elements say.. ←

14:55:51 <yamx> Roland: why we repeat the global "id" here. trouble to reconcile..

Roland Merrick: why we repeat the global "id" here. trouble to reconcile.. ←

14:56:48 <yamx> Steven: Action does, script doesn't, wired.

Steven Pemberton: Action does, script doesn't, wierd. ←

14:57:03 <yamx> s/wired/wierd/

14:57:48 <yamx> Roland: put if and while on action and script.

Roland Merrick: put if and while on action and script. ←

14:58:01 <yamx> Roland: not having it in listener.

Roland Merrick: not having it in listener. ←

14:58:20 <ShaneM> <div ev:if="condition">

Shane McCarron: <div ev:if="condition"> ←

14:58:26 <yamx> Shane: not in global attributes, which you can attach to anything.

Shane McCarron: not in global attributes, which you can attach to anything. ←

14:59:13 <ShaneM> ACTION: migrate @if and @while from listener element to the handler elements

ACTION: Shane to migrate @if and @while from listener element to the handler elements ←

14:59:15 <yamx> Steven: if refers to action only.

Steven Pemberton: "if" refers to action only. ←

14:59:25 <yamx> s/if/"if"/

14:59:35 <yamx> s/"if"/@if/

14:59:44 <ShaneM> s/migrate/Shane to migrate/

15:00:51 <ShaneM> Shane: is the Basic Profile still useful?  Section 3.6

Shane McCarron: is the Basic Profile still useful? Section 3.6 [ Scribe Assist by Shane McCarron ] ←

15:02:02 <yamx> Shane: Yam, do we need mobile profile? From Panasonic request a while ago.

Shane McCarron: Yam, do we need mobile profile? From Panasonic request a while ago. ←

15:02:38 <yamx> Yam: OMA currently has no plan to cutomize Events, with troubles with DOM2 events and DOM3 events, no more fragmentations or burdens to thnk about.

Toshihiko Yamakami: OMA currently has no plan to cutomize Events, with troubles with DOM2 events and DOM3 events, no more fragmentations or burdens to think about. ←

15:03:58 <yamx> Yam: restrictions will be good, but we need some good guidance, which we don't come up with now.

Toshihiko Yamakami: restrictions will be good, but we need some good guidance, which we don't come up with now. ←

15:04:09 <yamx> s/thnk/think/

15:04:25 <Steven> I asked Kenneth Sklandler who is an implementor of XML Events on mobile devices.

Steven Pemberton: I asked Kenneth Sklandler who is an implementor of XML Events on mobile devices. ←

15:04:29 <Steven> He said:

Steven Pemberton: He said: ←

15:05:02 <Steven> "no i do not think it is needed. the normal xml events profile is not too complex for mobile"

Steven Pemberton: "no i do not think it is needed. the normal xml events profile is not too complex for mobile" ←

15:05:48 <yamx> Shane: MXL Event 1, expressed DOM2, DOMactivate.

Shane McCarron: XML Event 1, expressed in DOM2, DOMactivate. ←

15:05:54 <yamx> s/MXL/XML/

15:06:07 <yamx> s/expressed DOM2/expressed in DOM2/

15:06:35 <yamx> Steven: we can use DOMactivate, it is illustrative example.

Steven Pemberton: we can use DOMactivate, it is illustrative example. ←

15:07:15 <yamx> Roland: XForms, we use DOMactivate.

Roland Merrick: XForms, we use DOMactivate. ←

15:07:25 <yamx> Shane: overflow.

Shane McCarron: overflow. which we cannot find ←

15:07:53 <yamx> s/overflow./overflow. which we cannot find/

15:08:28 <yamx> Roland: we have click, activate. which should be DOMactivate.

Roland Merrick: we have click, activate. which should be DOMactivate. ←

15:10:14 <yamx> Steven: capture, bubble, target. strictly speaking, the figure...

Steven Pemberton: capture, bubble, target. strictly speaking, the figure... ←

15:10:46 <yamx> .. capture stops at bubbling. Bubble does not start from target.

.. capture stops at bubbling. Bubble does not start from target. ←

15:11:09 <yamx> Roland: include link to introduction.

Roland Merrick: include link to introduction. ←

15:11:41 <yamx> Steven: discussing arrows in exact defined meanings.

Steven Pemberton: discussing arrows in exact defined meanings. ←

15:12:01 <yamx> Roland: showing some definitions in DOM3 Events.

Roland Merrick: showing some definitions in DOM3 Events, to Steven. ←

15:12:35 <yamx> s/Events./Events, to Steven./

15:13:31 <yamx> Roland: in event interface (1.4) DOM 3 Event.

Roland Merrick: in event interface (1.4) DOM 3 Event. ←

15:13:41 <ShaneM>     AT_TARGET

Shane McCarron: AT_TARGET ←

15:13:41 <ShaneM>         The current event is in the target phase, i.e. it is being evaluated at the event target.

Shane McCarron: The current event is in the target phase, i.e. it is being evaluated at the event target. ←

15:13:41 <ShaneM>     BUBBLING_PHASE

Shane McCarron: BUBBLING_PHASE ←

15:13:41 <ShaneM>         The current event phase is the bubbling phase.

Shane McCarron: The current event phase is the bubbling phase. ←

15:13:41 <ShaneM>     CAPTURING_PHASE

Shane McCarron: CAPTURING_PHASE ←

15:13:42 <ShaneM>         The current event phase is the capture phase.

Shane McCarron: The current event phase is the capture phase. ←

15:13:44 <ShaneM>

Shane McCarron: ←

15:13:53 <Roland_> Event Interface: http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-Events/events.html#Events-interface

Roland Merrick: Event Interface: http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-Events/events.html#Events-interface ←

15:14:24 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Events/events.html#Events-flow

Steven Pemberton: http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Events/events.html#Events-flow ←

15:14:51 <oedipus> thanks for pointers

Unknown oedipus: thanks for pointers ←

15:15:08 <yamx> Roland: we have to refer to it, not reproducing them.

Roland Merrick: we have to refer to it, not reproducing them. ←

15:16:29 <yamx> .. 1.2 Event dispatch and DOM event flow (in DOM 3 Events)

.. 1.2 Event dispatch and DOM event flow (in DOM 3 Events) ←

15:16:49 <Steven> I don't think I have *ever* needed to use the phase attribute

Steven Pemberton: I don't think I have *ever* needed to use the phase attribute ←

15:16:56 <Steven> ... the defaults are just right

Steven Pemberton: ... the defaults are just right ←

15:17:44 <Steven> ... but I have no problem with adding a phase="target"

Steven Pemberton: ... but I have no problem with adding a phase="target" ←

15:17:50 <Steven> ... as John Boyer requested

Steven Pemberton: ... as John Boyer requested ←

15:18:05 <Steven> ... or phase="attarget"

Steven Pemberton: ... or phase="attarget" ←

15:19:13 <yamx> Roland: three options, if none specified, default (whatever DOM 3 event) applied.

Roland Merrick: three options, if none specified, default (whatever DOM 3 event) applied. ←

15:19:17 <yamx> Steven: Bubble includes target.

Steven Pemberton: Bubble includes target. ←

15:19:28 <yamx> Steven: Bubble is default.

Steven Pemberton: Bubble is default. ←

15:19:54 <ShaneM> Just to be clear, what I think you are proposing is:          phase ("bubble"* | "capture" | "target"),<br />

Shane McCarron: Just to be clear, what I think you are proposing is: phase ("bubble"* | "capture" | "target"),<br /> ←

15:20:04 <yamx> Roland: all of better descriptions and diagrams, better than we did.

Roland Merrick: all of better descriptions and diagrams, better than we did. ←

15:21:22 <yamx> Roland: @phase has four values (3 phases + default). "default" is for backward-compatibility.

Roland Merrick: @phase has four values (3 phases + default). "default" is for backward-compatibility. ←

15:21:52 <yamx> Roland: No specified, default. default is synonim to "bubble".

Roland Merrick: No specified, default. default is synonim to "bubble". ←

15:27:29 <yamx> Roland: WML is little bit out of date in illustration.

(No events recorded for 5 minutes)

Roland Merrick: WML is little bit out of date in illustration. ←

15:28:28 <yamx> Roland: propose 3.5 Event Hander.

Roland Merrick: propose 3.5 Event Hander. ←

15:28:40 <yamx> Steven: we don't need 3.6.

Steven Pemberton: we don't need 3.6. ←

15:28:43 <yamx> Shane: both gone.

Shane McCarron: both gone. ←

15:33:40 <yamx> Roland: we found section 4 new things.

Roland Merrick: we found section 4 new things. ←

15:34:16 <yamx> Roland: Chameleion to be applied to whole spec.

Roland Merrick: Chameleion to be applied to whole spec. ←

15:34:46 <yamx> Roland: back to earlier discussion, hint label and help, part of content?

Roland Merrick: back to earlier discussion, hint label and help, part of content? ←

15:35:00 <yamx> Roland: any consensus?

Roland Merrick: any consensus? ←

15:35:20 <yamx> Roland: Essentially identical, but we have to doublecheck.

Roland Merrick: Essentially identical to XForms, but we have to doublecheck. ←

15:35:39 <yamx> s/identical/identical to XForms/

15:35:51 <Steven> XForms: action     Common, Events, Action Common      (Action)+

Scribe problem: the name 'XForms' does not match any of the 9 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Roland Merrick Alessio Cartocci Richard Schwerdtfeger Toshihiko Yamakami Steven Pemberton Shane McCarron Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown XForms: action Common, Events, Action Common (Action)+ [ Scribe Assist by Steven Pemberton ] ←

15:36:30 <Steven> This module also defines the content set "Action", which includes the following elements:

Steven Pemberton: This module also defines the content set "Action", which includes the following elements: ←

15:36:30 <Steven> (action|setvalue|insert|delete|setindex|toggle|setfocus|dispatch|rebuild|recalculate|revalidate|refresh|reset|

15:36:30 <Steven> load||send|message)*

Steven Pemberton: load||send|message)* ←

15:38:34 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms11/#action

Steven Pemberton: http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms11/#action ←

15:40:14 <yamx> Steven: some discrepancy from XForms, dispatch and dispatchevent.

Steven Pemberton: some discrepancy from XForms, dispatch and dispatchevent. ←

15:40:39 <Steven> Here is dispatch in XForms 1.1:

Steven Pemberton: Here is dispatch in XForms 1.1: ←

15:40:40 <Steven> dispatch     Common, Events, Action Common, name (xsd:NMTOKEN), target (xsd:IDREF), delay (xsd:nonNegativeInteger), bubbles (xsd:boolean), cancelable (xsd:boolean)      name?, target?, delay? [in any order]

Steven Pemberton: dispatch Common, Events, Action Common, name (xsd:NMTOKEN), target (xsd:IDREF), delay (xsd:nonNegativeInteger), bubbles (xsd:boolean), cancelable (xsd:boolean) name?, target?, delay? [in any order] ←

15:41:16 <yamx> s/dispathevent/dispatchEvent/

s/dispathevent/dispatchEvent/ (warning: replacement failed) ←

15:41:24 <oedipus> roland, GJR gives strong +1 to Steven's earlier proposal: "So I propose adding in XML Events 2 <script src="xforms.js" type="..." implements="... NS URI ..." /> [...] @implements tells the system that if they have an implementation of that NS, ignore this scrpt" and to Shane's addition: "We can also do that with an @if that checks HASFEATURE so @implements is then a shorthand"

Unknown oedipus: roland, GJR gives strong +1 to Steven's earlier proposal: "So I propose adding in XML Events 2 <script src="xforms.js" type="..." implements="... NS URI ..." /> [...] @implements tells the system that if they have an implementation of that NS, ignore this scrpt" and to Shane's addition: "We can also do that with an @if that checks HASFEATURE so @implements is then a shorthand" ←

15:41:48 <yamx> Steven: destid.

Steven Pemberton: destid. ←

15:42:26 <yamx> Shane: a conf call among Shane, Steven, Mark, over a year ago.

Shane McCarron: a conf call among Shane, Steven, Mark, over a year ago. ←

15:43:41 <yamx> Shane: some collision... we identified.

Shane McCarron: some collision... we identified. ←

15:44:01 <yamx> Steven: I am reluctant to go all this again...

Steven Pemberton: I am reluctant to go all this again... ←

15:44:08 <yamx> .., but..

.., but.. ←

15:44:29 <Steven> <action event="foo"

Steven Pemberton: <action event="foo" ←

15:44:37 <Steven> <action ev:event=="foo"

Steven Pemberton: <action ev:event="foo" ←

15:44:45 <Steven> s/==/=/

15:44:54 <yamx> Steven: equivalent way to same things.

Steven Pemberton: equivalent way to same things. ←

15:45:19 <yamx> Shane: we prohibit putting both in the same time.

Shane McCarron: we prohibit putting both in the same time. ←

15:46:17 <ShaneM> <dispatchEvent destid="overthere" targetid="otherhandler">

Shane McCarron: <dispatchEvent destid="overthere" targetid="otherhandler"> ←

15:47:13 <yamx> Shane: do in assistive technology.

Shane McCarron: do in assistive technology. ←

15:47:53 <yamx> Steven: not to handler, dispatch event to elemente, handler is maybe listening.

Steven Pemberton: not to handler, dispatch event to element, handler is maybe listening. ←

15:48:03 <yamx> s/elemente/element/

15:48:50 <yamx> Steven: Document? Document means root element?

Steven Pemberton: Document? Document means root element? ←

15:49:21 <yamx> ... reading dispatchEvent element.

... reading dispatchEvent element. ←

15:50:04 <yamx> Steven: this is a syntactic bindint to DOM 3 Event. Let's read DOM 3 Events.

Steven Pemberton: this is a syntactic bindint to DOM 3 Event. Let's read DOM 3 Events. ←

15:51:27 <Steven> In DOM3 it is:

Steven Pemberton: In DOM3 it is: ←

15:51:32 <Steven> EventTarget.dispatchEvent(eventname)

Steven Pemberton: EventTarget.dispatchEvent(eventname) ←

15:52:11 <yamx> Steven: destid is required attribute, not optional.

Steven Pemberton: destid is required attribute, not optional. ←

15:52:41 <yamx> Roland: default works.

Roland Merrick: default works. ←

15:55:34 <yamx> Steven: in DOM3, it is method, but here, it is not method in Section 4.

Steven Pemberton: in DOM3, it is method, but here, it is not method in Section 4. ←

15:55:57 <yamx> Steven: use "action" insted of "method" in Section 4.

Steven Pemberton: use "action" insted of "method" in Section 4. ←

15:56:04 <yamx> Shane: done.

Shane McCarron: done. ←

15:57:31 <yamx> Shane: current words on destid... does it make sense?

Shane McCarron: current words on destid... does it make sense? ←

15:58:19 <yamx> Steven: "otherwise, the event is dispatched to "document". ???

Steven Pemberton: "otherwise, the event is dispatched to "document". ??? ←

15:59:31 <yamx> Steven: events should be dispatched to "element" , nowhere to go.

Steven Pemberton: events should be dispatched to "element" , nowhere to go. ←

15:59:54 <yamx> Steven: in root, just hit root element. no other places to go.

Steven Pemberton: in root element case, just hit root element. no other places to go. ←

16:00:09 <yamx> s/in root/in root element case/

16:00:31 <yamx> Steven: describing phases in root element.

Steven Pemberton: describing phases in root element. ←

16:01:07 <yamx> Shane: whole bunches of handler in head element?

Shane McCarron: whole bunches of handlers in head element? ←

16:01:51 <yamx> s/handler in/handlers in/

16:01:59 <yamx> Steven: load event can only in html and body, nowhere else.

Steven Pemberton: load event can only in html and body, nowhere else. ←

16:02:39 <yamx> Roland: dispatch in XForms and dispatchEvent in XML Event 2 , quite different attributes...

Roland Merrick: dispatch in XForms and dispatchEvent in XML Event 2 , quite different attributes... ←

16:02:53 <yamx> (Steven went to a flipboard...)

(Steven went to a flipboard...) ←

16:03:34 <yamx> (describing "dispatchEvent" example.)

(describing "dispatchEvent" example.) ←

16:04:43 <yamx> (highlighting differences between XML Event2 and XForms 1.1)

(highlighting differences between XML Event2 and XForms 1.1) ←

16:07:40 <yamx> Steven: cancelable="cancelable" , that's the traditional way of boolean.

Steven Pemberton: cancelable="cancelable" , that's the traditional way of boolean. ←

16:08:56 <yamx> <dispatchEvent name="load"

in XML Events 2 <dispatchEvent name="load" ←

16:09:09 <yamx>  destid="#foo"

destid="#foo" ←

16:09:15 <yamx>  bubbles="bubbles"

bubbles="bubbles" ←

16:09:28 <yamx>  cancelable="cancelable"

cancelable="cancelable" \ ←

16:09:58 <yamx> s/cancelable"/cancelable" \/>/

16:10:10 <yamx> <dispatch name="load"

in XForms 1.1 <dispatch name="load" ←

16:10:17 <yamx>  target="#foo"

target="#foo" ←

16:10:29 <yamx>  delay="1"

delay="1" ←

16:10:34 <yamx>  bubles="true()"

bubles="true()" ←

16:10:43 <yamx>  cancelable="true()" />

cancelable="true()" /> ←

16:12:05 <ShaneM> IanJ confirms that we need toi ask the domain lead for an extra short name xml-events2 before we can make the short name changes we discussed

Shane McCarron: IanJ confirms that we need toi ask the domain lead for an extra short name xml-events2 before we can make the short name changes we discussed ←

16:13:23 <yamx> s/<dispatch/in XForms 1.1 <dispatch/

16:13:30 <Steven> And yet I pasted a text above that says we don't

Steven Pemberton: And yet I pasted a text above that says we don't ←

16:13:47 <yamx> s/<dispatchEvent/in XML Events 2 <dispatchEvent/

16:14:10 <Steven> When a Working Group follows this scheme, Director approval of short names is not required; the Communications Team can allocate them (provided they are reasonable, not offensive, etc.).

16:15:21 <ShaneM> IanJ refered me to this document:  http://www.w3.org/2005/05/tr-versions

Shane McCarron: IanJ refered me to this document: http://www.w3.org/2005/05/tr-versions ←

16:16:15 <yamx> Shane: I will manage this shortname issue.

Shane McCarron: I will manage this shortname issue. ←

16:18:06 <yamx> Steven: http://www.w3.org/2005/05/tr-versions says that we dont need Director(domain lead) approval.

Steven Pemberton: http://www.w3.org/2005/05/tr-versions says that we don't need Director(domain lead) approval. ←

16:18:16 <yamx> s/dont/don't/

16:19:15 <yamx> Steven: target is global in our spec, it is a problem.

Steven Pemberton: target is global in our spec, it is a problem. ←

16:19:46 <yamx> Steven: we can use name(as in XForms 1.1)

Steven Pemberton: we can use name(as in XForms 1.1) ←

16:20:06 <Steven_> but we have a problem with @target

Steven Pemberton: but we have a problem with @target ←

16:20:26 <yamx> Steven: I have a sneaking feeling that we talked with XForms group...

Steven Pemberton: I have a sneaking feeling that we talked with XForms group... ←

16:21:02 <yamx> Steven: how about "targetid" instaed of "destid", closest possible to XForms 1.1.

Steven Pemberton: how about "targetid" instead of "destid", closest possible to XForms 1.1. ←

16:21:13 <yamx> s/instaed/instead/

16:22:05 <yamx> Shane: targetid is global.

Shane McCarron: targetid is global. ←

16:22:21 <yamx> .. as in Section 3.

.. as in Section 3. ←

16:23:20 <Roland_> dispatchEvent should be changed to dispatch

Roland Merrick: dispatchEvent should be changed to dispatch ←

16:24:12 <Roland_> the raise attribute should be changed to name

Roland Merrick: the raise attribute should be changed to name ←

16:24:40 <yamx> Shane: targetid means something different in Section 3.

Shane McCarron: targetid means something different in Section 3. ←

16:25:03 <Roland_> bubbles attribute should be changed to an Xpath expression that evaluates to a boolean

Roland Merrick: bubbles attribute should be changed to an Xpath expression that evaluates to a boolean ←

16:25:21 <Roland_> cancelable attribute should be changed to an Xpath expression that evaluates to a boolean

Roland Merrick: cancelable attribute should be changed to an Xpath expression that evaluates to a boolean ←

16:26:37 <yamx> Steven: both target and targetid are called away.

Steven Pemberton: both target and targetid are called away. ←

16:26:56 <yamx> Steven: how about "to"?

Steven Pemberton: how about "to"? ←

16:27:09 <yamx> Roland: fine with me.

Roland Merrick: fine with me. ←

16:27:16 <Steven_> <dispathc name="DOMActivate" to="#foo"

Steven Pemberton: <dispatch name="DOMActivate" to="#foo" ←

16:27:26 <Steven_> s/thc/tch/

16:27:49 <Steven_> rrsagent, make minutes

Steven Pemberton: rrsagent, make minutes ←

16:27:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/19-xhtml-minutes.html Steven_

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/19-xhtml-minutes.html Steven_ ←

16:29:10 <yamx> Steven: OK?

Steven Pemberton: OK? ←

16:29:20 <yamx> Roland: let's check how much left.

Roland Merrick: let's check how much left. ←

16:29:23 <oedipus> ok by me

Unknown oedipus: ok by me ←

16:29:41 <Steven_> Regrets: Tina, Mark

16:30:14 <Steven_> rrsagent, make minutes

Steven Pemberton: rrsagent, make minutes ←

16:30:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/19-xhtml-minutes.html Steven_

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/19-xhtml-minutes.html Steven_ ←

16:30:22 <yamx> Steven: we did not resolve hint label and help.

Steven Pemberton: we did not resolve hint label and help. ←

16:30:39 <yamx> .. as a child of action.

.. as a child of action. ←

16:30:50 <yamx> Steven: XForms does not do that.

Steven Pemberton: XForms does not do that. ←

16:30:58 <oedipus> i gave +1 to your proposal, steven

Unknown oedipus: i gave +1 to your proposal, steven ←

16:30:58 <yamx> Steven: but we could.

Steven Pemberton: but we could. ←

16:31:52 <yamx> Steven: role is global attribute.

Steven Pemberton: role is global attribute. ←

16:32:12 <yamx> Roland: rather than xh:role..

Roland Merrick: rather than xh:role.. ←

16:32:58 <yamx> Steven: two seperate modules, language designers will combine if necesary.

Steven Pemberton: two seperate modules, language designers will combine if necesary. ←

16:34:58 <yamx> Steven: event cancelable or not is defined where the event is defined.

Steven Pemberton: event cancelable or not is defined where the event is defined. ←

16:35:26 <markbirbeck_> swdwg has just voted that rdfa should go to last call. :)

Scribe problem: the name 'markbirbeck_' does not match any of the 9 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Roland Merrick Alessio Cartocci Richard Schwerdtfeger Toshihiko Yamakami Steven Pemberton Shane McCarron Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown markbirbeck_: swdwg has just voted that rdfa should go to last call. :) ←

16:36:01 <Steven_> Woh!

Steven Pemberton: Woh! ←

16:36:07 <Steven_> Congrats all round!

Steven Pemberton: Congrats all round! ←

16:36:27 <Steven_> Unfortunately we resolved today that it is not yet ready

Steven Pemberton: Unfortunately we resolved today that it is not yet ready ←

16:36:28 <ShaneM> I will prepare a formal WD for publication.  Who is sending the publication request?

Shane McCarron: I will prepare a formal WD for publication. Who is sending the publication request? ←

16:36:39 <Steven_> ha ha

Steven Pemberton: ha ha ←

16:36:43 <markbirbeck_> lol

Unknown markbirbeck_: lol ←

16:37:07 <Steven_> GOod question. I suppose it needs to be a joint request

Steven Pemberton: Good question. I suppose it needs to be a joint request ←

16:37:19 <Steven_> s/GO/Go/

16:37:59 <Roland_> the destid attribute should be changed to "to"

Roland Merrick: the destid attribute should be changed to "to" ←

16:39:40 <yamx> Roland: addEventListner has four attributes, not described.

Roland Merrick: addEventListener has four attributes, not described. ←

16:39:56 <yamx> s/Listner/Listener/

16:40:14 <yamx> Roland: 4.5 removeEventListener has similar problems.

Roland Merrick: 4.5 removeEventListener has similar problems. ←

16:40:37 <yamx> Roland: they are all global, not duplicating.

Shane McCarron: they are all global, not duplicating. ←

16:41:26 <yamx> Roland: just to make it helpful, to describe attributes.

Roland Merrick: just to make it helpful, to describe attributes. ←

16:41:40 <yamx> s/Roland: they are/Shane: they are/

16:43:29 <yamx> Shane: addEventListener uses attributes(global attributes from Listner element).

Shane McCarron: addEventListener uses attributes(global attributes from Listner element). ←

16:43:42 <yamx> Shane: but not disagree, add them here.

Shane McCarron: but not disagree, add them here. ←

16:44:48 <ShaneM> ACTION: Shane to ensure that all listener events are shown on all elements in the Handler module.

ACTION: Shane to ensure that all listener events are shown on all elements in the Handler module. ←

16:45:16 <yamx> Steven: it is done for today.

Steven Pemberton: it is done for today. ←

16:45:26 <yamx> (because it is Steven's birthday)

(because it is Steven's birthday) ←

16:45:31 <Steven_> Prosecco!

Steven Pemberton: Prosecco! ←

16:45:46 <oedipus> buon compleanno, steven -- goda il vostro pranzo!

Unknown oedipus: buon compleanno, steven -- goda il vostro pranzo! ←

16:45:59 <Steven_> Gracie

Steven Pemberton: Gracie ←

16:46:06 <yamx> Roland: we will discuss some more comments on XML Event 2 tomorrow morning (3 comments).

Roland Merrick: we will discuss some more comments on XML Event 2 tomorrow morning (3 comments). ←

16:46:15 <Steven_> Grazie

Steven Pemberton: Grazie ←

16:46:37 <Steven_> (From JohnB)

Steven Pemberton: (From JohnB) ←

16:46:45 <Steven_> rrsagent, make minutes

Steven Pemberton: rrsagent, make minutes ←

16:46:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/19-xhtml-minutes.html Steven_

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/19-xhtml-minutes.html Steven_ ←

16:46:48 <oedipus> good night, grazie <wink>

Unknown oedipus: good night, grazie <wink> ←

16:47:08 <gshults> Happy Birthday, Steven. Please survive the night to return and participate tomorrow!

Unknown gshults: Happy Birthday, Steven. Please survive the night to return and participate tomorrow! ←

16:47:22 <yamx> We have to survive.

We have to survive. ←

16:47:22 <Steven_> If I must

Steven Pemberton: If I must ←

16:47:49 <ShaneM> publication target date for rdfa-syntax is thursday

Shane McCarron: publication target date for rdfa-syntax is thursday ←

16:47:59 <oedipus> congrats

Unknown oedipus: congrats ←

16:48:43 <Steven_> OK

Steven Pemberton: OK ←

16:52:18 <Steven_> Where do the rdfa comments get sent to?

Steven Pemberton: Where do the rdfa comments get sent to? ←

16:52:23 <Steven_> html-editor?

Steven Pemberton: html-editor? ←

16:52:35 <ShaneM> yes

Shane McCarron: yes ←

16:52:40 <ShaneM> err..... I think so

Shane McCarron: err..... I think so ←

16:52:45 <ShaneM> Ralph is doing pub request

Shane McCarron: Ralph is doing pub request ←

16:52:54 <Steven_> Oh, then I will stop doing it

Steven Pemberton: Oh, then I will stop doing it ←

16:52:55 <Steven_> :-)

Steven Pemberton: :-) ←

16:52:57 <Steven_> great

Steven Pemberton: great ←

16:53:00 <ShaneM> thanks!

Shane McCarron: thanks! ←

16:53:17 <Steven_> does he have the URL of our decision to go to last call?

Steven Pemberton: does he have the URL of our decision to go to last call? ←

16:53:29 <ShaneM> he should.

Shane McCarron: he should. ←

16:53:51 <ShaneM> no worries.  I can find it if not

Shane McCarron: no worries. I can find it if not ←

16:54:12 <Steven_> tx

Steven Pemberton: tx ←

16:55:43 <Steven_> Topic: XHTML Basic 1.1

4. XHTML Basic 1.1

16:55:50 <Steven_> scribe: Steven

(Scribe set to Steven Pemberton)

16:56:21 <Steven_> Steven: I have had a message from Steve Bratt that he is OK with our option 1 (to accept a single implementation of inputmode).

Steven Pemberton: I have had a message from Steve Brattt that he is OK with our option 1 (to accept a single implementation of inputmode). ←

16:56:31 <Steven_> ... so we can move to PR quickly

... so we can move to PR quickly ←

16:56:41 <Steven_> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

16:56:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/19-xhtml-minutes.html Steven_

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/19-xhtml-minutes.html Steven_ ←

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