Meeting Record

edit

XHTML2 WG FtF, Cambridge, MA, USA, Day 2

Minutes of 09 November 2007

Present

Steven Pemberton, Roland Merrick, Richard Schwerdtfeger, Unknown Bleeken

Chair

Unknown Steven/Roland

Scribe

Steven Pemberton

IRC Log

Original

Resolutions

allow role to be chameleon link
We will reopen the hr discussion at a future date link

Topics

role
Documents
Roadmap
Role for object

There are some format problems with the chatlog. Please correct them and reload this page. They are labeled on this page in a red box, like this message.

It may be helpful to

13:51:12 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/11/09-xhtml-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/11/09-xhtml-irc ←

13:51:21 <Steven> rrsagent, make log public

Steven Pemberton: rrsagent, make log public ←

13:51:46 <Steven> Meeting: XHTML2 WG FtF, Cambridge, MA, USA< Day 2

13:51:55 <Steven> Chairs: Steven/Roland

Scribe problem: the name 'Chairs' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alessio Cartocci Alexander Graf Christina Bottomley Elias Torres John Kugelman Luca Mascaro Mark Birbeck Masataka Yakura Michael Rawling Richard Schwerdtfeger Roland Merrick Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer Shane McCarron Steven Pemberton Susan Borgrink Tina Holmboe Toshihiko Yamakami Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Chairs: Steven/Roland [ Scribe Assist by Steven Pemberton ] ←

13:52:02 <Steven> Chair: Steven/Roland

Scribe problem: the name 'Steven/Roland' does not match any of the 17 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alessio Cartocci Alexander Graf Christina Bottomley Elias Torres John Kugelman Luca Mascaro Mark Birbeck Masataka Yakura Michael Rawling Richard Schwerdtfeger Roland Merrick Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer Shane McCarron Steven Pemberton Susan Borgrink Tina Holmboe Toshihiko Yamakami

13:52:11 <Steven> s/USA>/USA,/

Steven Pemberton: s/USA>/USA,/ (warning: replacement failed) ←

13:52:35 <Steven> Present: Steven, Roland, Rich, Nick vd Bleeken

Scribe problem: the name 'Nick vd Bleeken' does not match any of the 17 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alessio Cartocci Alexander Graf Christina Bottomley Elias Torres John Kugelman Luca Mascaro Mark Birbeck Masataka Yakura Michael Rawling Richard Schwerdtfeger Roland Merrick Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer Shane McCarron Steven Pemberton Susan Borgrink Tina Holmboe Toshihiko Yamakami

13:53:19 <Steven> Hi there Oedipus

Steven Pemberton: Hi there Oedipus ←

13:53:26 <Steven> Present+Gregory

Steven Pemberton: Present+Gregory ←

14:02:54 <Steven> Present+Tina

(No events recorded for 9 minutes)

Steven Pemberton: Present+Tina ←

14:04:23 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes

Steven Pemberton: rrsagent, make minutes ←

14:04:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/09-xhtml-minutes.html Steven

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/09-xhtml-minutes.html Steven ←

14:04:29 <Steven> Scribe: Steven

(Scribe set to Steven Pemberton)

14:05:53 <Steven> s/USA</USA,/

14:06:44 <Steven> Topic: role

1. role

14:07:23 <Steven> Rich; There is the issue of whether we are OK with the role attribute being chameleon

Rich; There is the issue of whether we are OK with the role attribute being chameleon ←

14:07:31 <Steven> \s/;/:/

\s/:/:/ ←

14:07:35 <Steven> s/;/:/

14:07:44 <Steven> Present+MarkB

Present+MarkB ←

14:07:48 <Steven> hi Mark

hi Mark ←

14:08:21 <Steven> Roland: Why wouldn't we?

Roland Merrick: Why wouldn't we? ←

14:08:44 <Steven> Steven: Well, it's just that modularization says you can't

Steven Pemberton: Well, it's just that modularization says you can't ←

14:08:57 <Steven> Roland: So then we have to change that rule in modularization

Roland Merrick: So then we have to change that rule in modularization ←

14:08:59 <markbirbeck> Hi everyone.

Scribe problem: the name 'markbirbeck' does not match any of the 7 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Steven Pemberton Roland Merrick Richard Schwerdtfeger Unknown Bleeken Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown markbirbeck: Hi everyone. ←

14:09:01 <oedipus> :(

Scribe problem: the name 'oedipus' does not match any of the 7 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Steven Pemberton Roland Merrick Richard Schwerdtfeger Unknown Bleeken Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown oedipus: :( ←

14:09:53 <Steven> Steven: I don't think I feel strongly either way. Class is similar in some senses. It is in other specs, and it 'means' the same, and it is spelled the same

Steven Pemberton: I don't think I feel strongly either way. Class is similar in some senses. It is in other specs, and it 'means' the same, and it is spelled the same ←

14:10:48 <Steven> Roland: I was actually suggesting that we create role outside of modularization, and then create a modularization module that imports that

Roland Merrick: I was actually suggesting that we create role outside of modularization, and then create a modularization module that imports that ←

14:11:56 <Steven> So Oedipus, was that frowny to mean that you don't support chameleon role?

So Oedipus, was that frowny to mean that you don't support chameleon role? ←

14:12:17 <oedipus> i'm intrigued by roland's suggestion

Unknown oedipus: i'm intrigued by roland's suggestion ←

14:12:39 <Steven> Well, people want to have it in their spec without having to namespace it

Well, people want to have it in their spec without having to namespace it ←

14:13:02 <Steven> <g role="thingy"> rather than <g xh:role="thingy">

<g role="thingy"> rather than <g xh:role="thingy"> ←

14:13:25 <oedipus> the frown was because modularization said we couldn't, but what would changing that rule in modularization entail -- ramifications?

Unknown oedipus: the frown was because modularization said we couldn't, but what would changing that rule in modularization entail -- ramifications? ←

14:13:27 <Steven> Roland: So people have the choice of which of those two forms they care to use

Roland Merrick: So people have the choice of which of those two forms they care to use ←

14:14:06 <Steven> Well, Roland is suggesting just changing it for role

Well, Roland is suggesting just changing it for role ←

14:14:10 <oedipus> ok

Unknown oedipus: ok ←

14:16:00 <Steven> Rich: So what can we do?

Richard Schwerdtfeger: So what can we do? ←

14:16:12 <markbirbeck> When @role appears without a namespace in another language, it is because that language has added it to its own language. Just like @class in SVG is *not* @class in HTML, but they have given it the same semantics to make it easier for people to use.

Unknown markbirbeck: When @role appears without a namespace in another language, it is because that language has added it to its own language. Just like @class in SVG is *not* @class in HTML, but they have given it the same semantics to make it easier for people to use. ←

14:16:15 <Steven> Roland: We just put it back through last call with the change made

Roland Merrick: We just put it back through last call with the change made ←

14:16:24 <Steven> Steven: Short three weeks.

Steven Pemberton: Short three weeks. ←

14:16:31 <Steven> ROland: THe question is, one spec or two?

Roland Merrick: THe question is, one spec or two? ←

14:16:42 <markbirbeck> So all we have to do is what we discussed the other day--remove the restriction that "you can't use our stuff unless you namespace prefix it".

Unknown markbirbeck: So all we have to do is what we discussed the other day--remove the restriction that "you can't use our stuff unless you namespace prefix it". ←

14:16:50 <oedipus> gut feeling is one

Unknown oedipus: gut feeling is one ←

14:17:01 <markbirbeck> It's your language...you do what you want with it, is the point.

Unknown markbirbeck: It's your language...you do what you want with it, is the point. ←

14:17:05 <Steven> Steven: I would prefer just one, with an ENglish sentence "Rule 2.5.1 of modularization does not apply to this attribute" or somesuch

Steven Pemberton: I would prefer just one, with an ENglish sentence "Rule 3.1.5 of modularization does not apply to this attribute" or somesuch ←

14:17:08 <Steven> Roland: GOod

Roland Merrick: Good ←

14:17:11 <Rich> yes

Richard Schwerdtfeger: yes ←

14:17:15 <oedipus> +1 from GJR

Unknown oedipus: +1 from GJR ←

14:17:33 <markbirbeck> Let's solve this for all of our modules, though.

Unknown markbirbeck: Let's solve this for all of our modules, though. ←

14:17:55 <Steven> Present+Christina Bottomly

Present+Christina Bottomly ←

14:18:09 <Steven> Steven: This is our newest member, Christina

Steven Pemberton: This is our newest member, Christina ←

14:18:18 <Steven> ... she is going to help with our specs and tutorials

... she is going to help with our specs and tutorials ←

14:18:31 <Steven> Christina: I am based in New York, and work for STC

Scribe problem: the name 'Christina' does not match any of the 7 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Steven Pemberton Roland Merrick Richard Schwerdtfeger Unknown Bleeken Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Christina: I am based in New York, and work for STC ←

14:19:29 <markbirbeck> What was the question "one spec or two" about?

Unknown markbirbeck: What was the question "one spec or two" about? ←

14:19:46 <Steven> Whether to have a non-modularization role, and a modularization role

Whether to have a non-modularization role, and a modularization role ←

14:19:59 <Steven> s/GOod/Good/

14:20:53 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/xhtml-modularization.html

http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/xhtml-modularization.html ←

14:22:07 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/xhtml-modularization.html#s_conform_document_type

http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/xhtml-modularization.html#s_conform_document_type ←

14:22:13 <Steven> Rule 5 in that

Rule 5 in that ←

14:22:23 <Steven> s/2.5.1/3.1.5/

14:22:38 <Steven> "The schema that defines the document type may define additional elements and attributes. However, these MUST be in their own XML namespace [XMLNAMES]. If additional elements are defined by a module, the attributes defined in included XHTML modules are available for use on those elements, but MUST be referenced using their namespace-qualified identifier (e.g., xhtml:class). The semantics of the attributes remain the same as when used on an XHTML-namespace eleme

"The schema that defines the document type may define additional elements and attributes. However, these MUST be in their own XML namespace [XMLNAMES]. If additional elements are defined by a module, the attributes defined in included XHTML modules are available for use on those elements, but MUST be referenced using their namespace-qualified identifier (e.g., xhtml:class). The semantics of the attributes remain the same as when used on an XHTML-namespace eleme ←

14:23:05 <Steven> Steven: So it is the last MUST that changes

Steven Pemberton: So it is the last MUST that changes ←

14:23:31 <Steven> Steven: Not sure how Shane feels about this change

Steven Pemberton: Not sure how Shane feels about this change ←

14:24:12 <Steven> Steven: So change the MUST to a SHOULD?

Steven Pemberton: So change the MUST to a SHOULD? ←

14:24:19 <Steven> [General nodding][

[General nodding] ←

14:24:27 <Steven> s/][/]/

14:24:49 <Steven> Roland: We did this with xml:id

Roland Merrick: We did this with xml:id ←

14:25:32 <Steven> Steven: But exactly the other way round

Steven Pemberton: But exactly the other way round ←

14:27:01 <Steven> Steven: So the reason we went for xml:is is that it was generally processable WITHOUT knowing anything about the enclosing language

Steven Pemberton: So the reason we went for xml:id is that it was generally processable WITHOUT knowing anything about the enclosing language ←

14:27:25 <Steven> ... what we are doing is now the opposite: you have to know the language to know whether @role is our role or not

... what we are doing is now the opposite: you have to know the language to know whether @role is our role or not ←

14:27:30 <Steven> ... so it is worse really

... so it is worse really ←

14:27:38 <Steven> ... it is less generally applicable

... it is less generally applicable ←

14:28:05 <Steven> s/xml:is/xml:id/

14:28:23 <Steven> ROland: But they have the choice to do the right thing or not

Roland Merrick: But they have the choice to do the right thing or not ←

14:28:48 <oedipus> so would MUST to SHOULD be a "best practices" convention -- you don't have to, but you really probably should, unless you're lazy, ignorant or just don't give a damn?

Unknown oedipus: so would MUST to SHOULD be a "best practices" convention -- you don't have to, but you really probably should, unless you're lazy, ignorant or just don't give a damn? ←

14:29:54 <Steven> I think so oedipus, yes

I think so oedipus, yes ←

14:30:27 <Steven> Roland: THere is enough rope for people to hang themselves with

Roland Merrick: There is enough rope for people to hang themselves with ←

14:30:32 <Steven> s/TH/Th/

14:30:48 <oedipus> hmmm...  well my catagorization covers some cases we already know about...

Unknown oedipus: hmmm... well my catagorization covers some cases we already know about... ←

14:31:10 <Steven> Steven: So M12N is on the brink of transition, so do we make that change before the transition?

Steven Pemberton: So M12N is on the brink of transition, so do we make that change before the transition? ←

14:31:25 <Steven> Roland: Yes. It is a relaxation, so it won't break anyone's software

Roland Merrick: Yes. It is a relaxation, so it won't break anyone's software ←

14:31:48 <oedipus> +1 -- i think that may be a MUST not a SHOULD

Unknown oedipus: +1 -- i think that may be a MUST not a SHOULD ←

14:32:49 <Steven> I don't quite understand what you are saying Oedipus

I don't quite understand what you are saying Oedipus ←

14:32:54 <Steven>  Here is the old text:

Here is the old text: ←

14:33:08 <Steven> "The schema that defines the document type may define additional elements and attributes. However, these MUST be in their own XML namespace [XMLNAMES]. If additional elements are defined by a module, the attributes defined in included XHTML modules are available for use on those elements, but MUST be referenced using their namespace-qualified identifier (e.g., xhtml:class). The semantics of the attributes remain the same as when used on an XHTML-namespace eleme

14:33:15 <Steven> and here is the proposed new text:

and here is the proposed new text: ←

14:33:25 <Steven> "The schema that defines the document type may define additional elements and attributes. However, these MUST be in their own XML namespace [XMLNAMES]. If additional elements are defined by a module, the attributes defined in included XHTML modules are available for use on those elements, but SHOULD be referenced using their namespace-qualified identifier (e.g., xhtml:class). The semantics of the attributes remain the same as when used on an XHTML-namespace ele

"The schema that defines the document type may define additional elements and attributes. However, these MUST be in their own XML namespace [XMLNAMES]. If additional elements are defined by a module, the attributes defined in included XHTML modules are available for use on those elements, but SHOULD be referenced using their namespace-qualified identifier (e.g., xhtml:class). The semantics of the attributes remain the same as when used on an XHTML-namespace ele ←

14:33:58 <oedipus> i think we need to add the new text before M12N transition

Unknown oedipus: i think we need to add the new text before M12N transition ←

14:34:04 <Steven> (one word has changed MUST => SHOULD)

(one word has changed MUST => SHOULD) ←

14:34:10 <Steven> OK, right

OK, right ←

14:34:26 <Steven> Steven: So it looks like we have agreement here, modulo Shane

Steven Pemberton: So it looks like we have agreement here, modulo Shane ←

14:34:33 <Steven> Let me ping him now

Let me ping him now ←

14:37:28 <markbirbeck> We should change M12N, for the following reasons:

Unknown markbirbeck: We should change M12N, for the following reasons: ←

14:37:35 <Steven> ACTION: Shane to change 3.1.5 in Modularization 1.1

ACTION: Shane to change 3.1.5 in Modularization 1.1 ←

14:38:03 <Steven> Steven: Does this mean role has to go through last call again? (I think so)

Steven Pemberton: Does this mean role has to go through last call again? (I think so) ←

14:38:03 <markbirbeck> Above, this was said: "... so it is worse really ... it is less generally applicable", referring to @role v. @xh:role.

Unknown markbirbeck: Above, this was said: "... so it is worse really ... it is less generally applicable", referring to @role v. @xh:role. ←

14:40:28 <markbirbeck> I think the big problem with the way XML in general has been used, and M12N in particular is that we've assumed that all languages are the same. But it's obviously not true. Some document architecture that transfers bank details around and blends items form many different sources as transactions pass through the system is very different to mark-up used to create web-pages, and which could even be hand authored. So the fact that in HTML or SVG you have

Unknown markbirbeck: I think the big problem with the way XML in general has been used, and M12N in particular is that we've assumed that all languages are the same. But it's obviously not true. Some document architecture that transfers bank details around and blends items form many different sources as transactions pass through the system is very different to mark-up used to create web-pages, and which could even be hand authored. So the fact that in HTML or SVG you have ←

14:40:51 <markbirbeck> The 'bank transaction' super-language can still use @xh:role.

Unknown markbirbeck: The 'bank transaction' super-language can still use @xh:role. ←

14:41:30 <Steven> ends at "or SVG you have "

ends at "or SVG you have " ←

14:43:01 <Steven> Yes Mark, that is true, but you can't write a generic 'role' processor; it has to know which langauges import @role where

Yes Mark, that is true, but you can't write a generic 'role' processor; it has to know which langauges import @role where ←

14:43:15 <Steven> whereas before, you didn't need that information

whereas before, you didn't need that information ←

14:43:27 <Steven> You could just depend on seeing the xhtml namespace

You could just depend on seeing the xhtml namespace ←

14:44:00 <Steven> Steven: I see that we do need to change the role module:

Steven Pemberton: I see that we do need to change the role module: ←

14:44:08 <Steven> ... http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-role/#docconf

... http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-role/#docconf ←

14:45:35 <Steven> "If the host language is not in the XHTML namespace, the document MUST contain an xmlns declaration for the XHTML Role Attribute Module namespace"

"If the host language is not in the XHTML namespace, the document MUST contain an xmlns declaration for the XHTML Role Attribute Module namespace" ←

14:45:48 <Steven> Steven: SO we have to change that too

Steven Pemberton: SO we have to change that too ←

14:46:08 <Steven> ACTION: Shane to change http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-role/#docconf to match

ACTION: Shane to change http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-role/#docconf to match ←

14:46:21 <Steven> ACTION: Steven to put role through last call again

ACTION: Steven to put role through last call again ←

14:51:25 <Steven> Steven: Iwas pleased to hear that the WAI ARIA stuff works in Dojo already

(No events recorded for 5 minutes)

Steven Pemberton: Iwas pleased to hear that the WAI ARIA stuff works in Dojo already ←

14:51:35 <Steven> ... so I don't see the issue really

... so I don't see the issue really ←

14:51:40 <Steven> ... it works fine

... it works fine ←

14:52:13 <oedipus> the dojo examples work much better than the current mozilla samples (been doing QA on ARIA test materials for PF)

Unknown oedipus: the dojo examples work much better than the current mozilla samples (been doing QA on ARIA test materials for PF) ←

14:53:05 <markbirbeck> Steven, my point is that we don't have generic role processors on the client anyway. The only generic processing we have is server-side XSLT translations. So there's little point in gearing everything around something that hasn't happened.

Unknown markbirbeck: Steven, my point is that we don't have generic role processors on the client anyway. The only generic processing we have is server-side XSLT translations. So there's little point in gearing everything around something that hasn't happened. ←

14:53:17 <markbirbeck> So I'm *very* glad to see this change. :)

Unknown markbirbeck: So I'm *very* glad to see this change. :) ←

14:53:43 <Steven> Well, role is so new. But we are putting hurdles in the way of role processors by making role harder to identify

Well, role is so new. But we are putting hurdles in the way of role processors by making role harder to identify ←

14:54:04 <Steven> Now we *can't* have generic role processors

Now we *can't* have generic role processors ←

14:54:17 <Steven> but it used to be possible

but it used to be possible ←

14:54:26 <markbirbeck> But it wasn't.

Unknown markbirbeck: But it wasn't. ←

14:54:27 <Steven> so the situation has got worse not better

so the situation has got worse not better ←

14:54:47 <markbirbeck> There was no architecture in place for that generic processor to hook into.

Unknown markbirbeck: There was no architecture in place for that generic processor to hook into. ←

14:54:52 <Steven> It was possible. You only need to know if there was a role attribute in the xh namespace

It was possible. You only need to know if there was a role attribute in the xh namespace ←

14:55:00 <markbirbeck> Exactly.

Unknown markbirbeck: Exactly. ←

14:55:07 <Steven> now you have to know the list of languages that have a role, and which elements use it

now you have to know the list of languages that have a role, and which elements use it ←

14:55:10 <markbirbeck> Like I said "there was no architecture...". :)

Unknown markbirbeck: Like I said "there was no architecture...". :) ←

14:55:29 <markbirbeck> In today's technologies, how do you find something in the XHTML namespace?

Unknown markbirbeck: In today's technologies, how do you find something in the XHTML namespace? ←

14:55:42 <markbirbeck> It's circular.

Unknown markbirbeck: It's circular. ←

14:55:58 <Steven> Present+Masataka

Present+Masataka ←

14:56:15 <markbirbeck> You end up trying to invent a 'hook', like 'aria-' or 'xh-' to indicate it.

Unknown markbirbeck: You end up trying to invent a 'hook', like 'aria-' or 'xh-' to indicate it. ←

14:56:48 <alessio> hallo

Scribe problem: the name 'alessio' does not match any of the 7 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Steven Pemberton Roland Merrick Richard Schwerdtfeger Unknown Bleeken Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown alessio: hallo ←

14:57:32 <markbirbeck> In short, as long as the biggest consumer of XHTML is actually an HTML browser, you have a problem.

Unknown markbirbeck: In short, as long as the biggest consumer of XHTML is actually an HTML browser, you have a problem. ←

14:58:18 <Steven> Masataka Yakura joins the meeting

Masataka Yakura joins the meeting ←

14:58:44 <markbirbeck> The fact that we can't have a generic role processor is so insignificant a problem when compared to the enormous problem created by that disjuncture...sorry to say. :(

Unknown markbirbeck: The fact that we can't have a generic role processor is so insignificant a problem when compared to the enormous problem created by that disjuncture...sorry to say. :( ←

14:58:59 <Steven> Masatka: I represent Mitsue-Links Co., Ltd.

Scribe problem: the name 'Masataka' does not match any of the 7 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Steven Pemberton Roland Merrick Richard Schwerdtfeger Unknown Bleeken Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Masataka: I represent Mitsue-Links Co., Ltd. ←

14:59:08 <Steven> ... we build sites using XHTML and CSS

... we build sites using XHTML and CSS ←

14:59:24 <Steven> ... I am joining both this and the HTML5 working groupsd

... I am joining both this and the HTML5 working groups ←

14:59:31 <Steven> s/sd/s/

15:01:06 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

15:01:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/09-xhtml-minutes.html Steven

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/09-xhtml-minutes.html Steven ←

15:02:04 <Steven> Steven: At the TP on Wednesday, we tried to identify XHTML2 as an authoring language, you write your site once, and direct it to different devices, with accessibility, personalization, device independence all for free, or low cost

Steven Pemberton: At the TP on Wednesday, we tried to identify XHTML2 as an authoring language, you write your site once, and direct it to different devices, with accessibility, personalization, device independence all for free, or low cost ←

15:02:09 <Steven> Present+Shane

Present+Shane ←

15:02:12 <Steven> Ho Shane

Ho Shane ←

15:02:17 <Steven> Hi

Hi ←

15:02:24 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

15:02:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/09-xhtml-minutes.html Steven

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/09-xhtml-minutes.html Steven ←

15:02:41 <Steven> Shane, you might like to look at the minutes, and scream and yell, or as you see fit

Shane, you might like to look at the minutes, and scream and yell, or as you see fit ←

15:03:17 <alessio> hi steven :)

Unknown alessio: hi steven :) ←

15:03:31 <Steven> s/Masatka/Masataka/

15:03:49 <Steven> Roland: So now we have the discussion about role, the same question applies to access

Roland Merrick: So now we have the discussion about role, the same question applies to access ←

15:03:56 <Steven> Steven: Should it be chameleon?

Steven Pemberton: Should it be chameleon? ←

15:03:59 <Steven> ROland: Yes

Roland Merrick: Yes ←

15:04:05 <Steven> s/RO/Ro/

15:05:34 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2007/ED-xhtml-access-20071030/

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2007/ED-xhtml-access-20071030/ ←

15:05:38 <ShaneM> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Drafts

Scribe problem: the name 'ShaneM' does not match any of the 7 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Steven Pemberton Roland Merrick Richard Schwerdtfeger Unknown Bleeken Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown ShaneM: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Drafts ←

15:07:46 <Steven> Steven: I happen to know that the Internationalization people are talking with SVG about keys today

Steven Pemberton: I happen to know that the Internationalization people are talking with SVG about keys today ←

15:07:52 <Steven> .... (key="s")

.... (key="s") ←

15:08:22 <Steven> ... (as a side issue)

... (as a side issue) ←

15:08:49 <Steven> So shane, can you live with the decision to make @role chameleon?

So Shane, can you live with the decision to make @role chameleon? ←

15:08:57 <Steven> s/shane/Shane

15:09:15 <ShaneM> few things this group could possibly do would ever effect my ability to live.

Unknown ShaneM: few things this group could possibly do would ever effect my ability to live. ←

15:09:16 <Steven> ... and change the MUST into a SHOULD

... and change the MUST into a SHOULD ←

15:09:22 <Steven> lol

lol ←

15:09:40 <Steven> especially if you don't come to meetings ;-)

especially if you don't come to meetings ;-) ←

15:10:02 <Roland_> but could they affect your will to live :-)

Roland Merrick: but could they affect your will to live :-) ←

15:10:02 <Steven> Present+Alessio

Present+Alessio ←

15:10:10 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

15:10:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/09-xhtml-minutes.html Steven

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/09-xhtml-minutes.html Steven ←

15:10:14 <ShaneM> note that making this change to M12N will require our returning to last call

Unknown ShaneM: note that making this change to M12N will require our returning to last call ←

15:10:40 <oedipus> the thinking was 3 weeks LC, right?

Unknown oedipus: the thinking was 3 weeks LC, right? ←

15:10:42 <Steven> Are you sure?

Are you sure? ←

15:10:59 <Steven> because it won't invalidate any software or documents

because it won't invalidate any software or documents ←

15:11:13 <ShaneM> am I sure that changing the requirements of M12N so that any attribute in the xhtml namespace can be magically imported into any other namespace with the same semantics rquires a new last call?  oh yeah.

Unknown ShaneM: am I sure that changing the requirements of M12N so that any attribute in the xhtml namespace can be magically imported into any other namespace with the same semantics rquires a new last call? oh yeah. ←

15:11:33 <ShaneM> it changes the requirements for behavior on xhtml family user agents

Unknown ShaneM: it changes the requirements for behavior on xhtml family user agents ←

15:11:50 <ShaneM> in that they MUST recognize attributes that look like XHTML as being XHTML all the time.  Somehow.

Unknown ShaneM: in that they MUST recognize attributes that look like XHTML as being XHTML all the time. Somehow. ←

15:12:07 <Steven> But M12N only defines syntax, not behaviour

But M12N only defines syntax, not behaviour ←

15:12:59 <Steven> Roland: If Shane is right, and it means a new last call, then I think we should only do it for role, and say that rule 3.1.5 doesn't apply only in that spec

Roland Merrick: If Shane is right, and it means a new last call, then I think we should only do it for role, and say that rule 3.1.5 doesn't apply only in that spec ←

15:13:15 <ShaneM> no it defines the behavior of xhtml family user agents - see section 3.5

Unknown ShaneM: no it defines the behavior of xhtml family user agents - see section 3.5 ←

15:13:42 <ShaneM> oh wait... interesting.

Unknown ShaneM: oh wait... interesting. ←

15:14:27 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2007/ED-xhtml-modularization-20071002/conformance.html#s_conform_user_agent

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2007/ED-xhtml-modularization-20071002/conformance.html#s_conform_user_agent ←

15:15:38 <Steven> Steven: I don't see it

Steven Pemberton: I don't see it ←

15:15:51 <ShaneM> question: if I extend XHTML 1.1 with my own elements and I want to use role on those elements, current M12N says I MUST reference role as <my:element xh:role="whatever">

Scribe problem: the name 'question' does not match any of the 7 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Steven Pemberton Roland Merrick Richard Schwerdtfeger Unknown Bleeken Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown question: if I extend XHTML 1.1 with my own elements and I want to use role on those elements, current M12N says I MUST reference role as <my:element xh:role="whatever"> [ Scribe Assist by Unknown ShaneM ] ←

15:15:59 <Steven> ... why this change would affect any XHTML conformant software or documents

... why this change would affect any XHTML conformant software or documents ←

15:16:00 <Roland_> orr we develop two specifications, 1) Role attribute that defines an unnamespaced attribute, 2) An XHTML Role Attribute Module that incorporate the "Role attribute spec" into a very similarly named XHTML Module. Just lots of work which we can hopefully avoid.

Roland Merrick: orr we develop two specifications, 1) Role attribute that defines an unnamespaced attribute, 2) An XHTML Role Attribute Module that incorporate the "Role attribute spec" into a very similarly named XHTML Module. Just lots of work which we can hopefully avoid. ←

15:16:34 <Steven> yes, and we are now saying that <my:element role="whatever"> is fine

yes, and we are now saying that <my:element role="whatever"> is fine ←

15:16:50 <Steven> or at least, OK< though the other form is preferable

or at least, OK< though the other form is preferable ←

15:16:58 <ShaneM> okay, then that is a  conformance change on conforming user agents

Unknown ShaneM: okay, then that is a conformance change on conforming user agents ←

15:17:05 <Steven> It is like everyone has @class, which is actually the same one

It is like everyone has @class, which is actually the same one ←

15:17:17 <Steven> spelled the same, has the same effect

spelled the same, has the same effect ←

15:17:28 <Steven> but in different namespaces

but in different namespaces ←

15:17:31 <ShaneM> because of section 3.1 clause 5.

Unknown ShaneM: because of section 3.1 clause 5. ←

15:17:54 <Steven> yes

yes ←

15:17:57 <ShaneM> a current conforming user agent will not expect that "role" == "xh:role" semantically

Unknown ShaneM: a current conforming user agent will not expect that "role" == "xh:role" semantically ←

15:18:04 <Steven> we want to change the MUST there into a SHOULD

we want to change the MUST there into a SHOULD ←

15:18:36 <Steven> Well, it can't identify it syntactically, it has to use other knowledge to identify that they aqre the same

Well, it can't identify it syntactically, it has to use other knowledge to identify that they aqre the same ←

15:18:46 <ShaneM> I understand.  I dont care - I am just pointing out that this change is a conformance change for user agents because they were not previously required to interpret them as the same.

Unknown ShaneM: I understand. I dont care - I am just pointing out that this change is a conformance change for user agents because they were not previously required to interpret them as the same. ←

15:18:58 <Steven> that is why xh:role is preferable (there is no doubt it is the same)

that is why xh:role is preferable (there is no doubt it is the same) ←

15:20:57 <Steven> In reality thoughm anyonecan create a language with the element <g role="foo">

In reality thoughm anyonecan create a language with the element <g role="foo"> ←

15:21:09 <Steven> and just *say* it is the same as the XHTML role

and just *say* it is the same as the XHTML role ←

15:21:17 <Steven> "because we say so"

"because we say so" ←

15:21:31 <Steven> so all we are doing is accepting that

so all we are doing is accepting that ←

15:21:37 <Rich> anyone can say so

Richard Schwerdtfeger: anyone can say so ←

15:21:40 <ShaneM>  yes.  and that's why chameleon namespaces are BAD.  'cause they can also say "it is NOT the same" and an ARAI aware browser would have no way of knowing the difference

Unknown ShaneM: yes. and that's why chameleon namespaces are BAD. 'cause they can also say "it is NOT the same" and an ARAI aware browser would have no way of knowing the difference ←

15:21:56 <Steven> Yes, you are right there

Yes, you are right there ←

15:21:56 <ShaneM>  but whatever.  you all do what you think is best.  I will happily implement it.

Unknown ShaneM: but whatever. you all do what you think is best. I will happily implement it. ←

15:22:08 <Steven> I hear the magic words

I hear the magic words ←

15:22:17 <Steven> RESOLUTION: allow role to be chameleon

RESOLVED: allow role to be chameleon ←

15:22:25 <ShaneM>  "The bar is open" ?

Unknown ShaneM: "The bar is open" ? ←

15:22:29 <Steven> lol

lol ←

15:23:04 <Steven> Steven: do we agree that M12N does not need to go through last call again?

Steven Pemberton: do we agree that M12N does not need to go through last call again? ←

15:23:29 <Steven> ... we are required to say what has changed since the last transition

... we are required to say what has changed since the last transition ←

15:23:38 <Steven> ... so the change will be pointed out

... so the change will be pointed out ←

15:23:56 <markbirbeck> I agree.

Unknown markbirbeck: I agree. ←

15:24:02 <Steven> to what?

to what? ←

15:24:16 <Steven> I see

I see ←

15:24:21 <Steven> that we don't need to go to last call

that we don't need to go to last call ←

15:24:22 <Steven> good

good ←

15:24:52 <ShaneM>  ok

Unknown ShaneM: ok ←

15:25:03 <Steven> Roland: Does the same apply to the access element

Roland Merrick: Does the same apply to the access eleent? ←

15:25:08 <Steven> s/element/eleent?

15:25:14 <markbirbeck> it doesn't affect XHTML-based user agents, since they can already use @role, and it doesn't affect non-XHTML based user agents, since they will be using @xh:role. But going forward, it allows SVG to use @role, and say that it's the same as @xh:role.

Unknown markbirbeck: it doesn't affect XHTML-based user agents, since they can already use @role, and it doesn't affect non-XHTML based user agents, since they will be using @xh:role. But going forward, it allows SVG to use @role, and say that it's the same as @xh:role. ←

15:25:19 <Steven> s/eleent?/element?/

15:25:29 <markbirbeck> (My comment is in relation to LC, not access.)

Unknown markbirbeck: (My comment is in relation to LC, not access.) ←

15:25:33 <Steven> yes

yes ←

15:25:47 <Steven> Roland: Let us leave as is now and see who screams

Roland Merrick: Let us leave as is now and see who screams ←

15:25:55 <Steven> ... publish as-is

... publish as-is ←

15:25:55 <markbirbeck> Leave what, as is?

Unknown markbirbeck: Leave what, as is? ←

15:25:59 <Steven> Access

Access ←

15:26:14 <Steven> don't change the M12N rules for access (yet)

don't change the M12N rules for access (yet) ←

15:26:29 <ShaneM>  err....

Unknown ShaneM: err.... ←

15:26:41 <markbirbeck> It should be usable in other languages without a prefix, if that's what people want.

Unknown markbirbeck: It should be usable in other languages without a prefix, if that's what people want. ←

15:26:50 <ShaneM>  if we are changing M12N, then we perforce are changing all modules.  role, access, whatever.

Unknown ShaneM: if we are changing M12N, then we perforce are changing all modules. role, access, whatever. ←

15:26:59 <markbirbeck> +1 to Shane.

Unknown markbirbeck: +1 to Shane. ←

15:27:06 <Steven> we have only changed the rules for attributes today

we have only changed the rules for attributes today ←

15:27:22 <markbirbeck> We're fundamentally changing our philosophy, after all.

Unknown markbirbeck: We're fundamentally changing our philosophy, after all. ←

15:27:56 <Rich> we could

Richard Schwerdtfeger: we could ←

15:28:31 <Roland_> is there an equivalent rule for elements?

Roland Merrick: is there an equivalent rule for elements? ←

15:28:36 <ShaneM>  The logical ramification of this change is that in ANY XHTML HOST LANGUAGE any non-xhtml elements can use attributes from XHTML Attribute Collections in an unqualified form.

Unknown ShaneM: The logical ramification of this change is that in ANY XHTML HOST LANGUAGE any non-xhtml elements can use attributes from XHTML Attribute Collections in an unqualified form. ←

15:28:49 <Steven> I don't think we have the same rule for elements

I don't think we have the same rule for elements ←

15:28:58 <Steven> Maybe someone can point me to it

Maybe someone can point me to it ←

15:30:08 <ShaneM>  actually XML has that rule.  we dont need one

Unknown ShaneM: actually XML has that rule. we dont need one ←

15:30:36 <ShaneM>  elements are in a namespace.  Whatever the default namespace is dictates the form of elements referenced in a document.

Unknown ShaneM: elements are in a namespace. Whatever the default namespace is dictates the form of elements referenced in a document. ←

15:31:05 <Steven> But do we have a rule that says that elements defined here MUST be in the XHTML namespace?

But do we have a rule that says that elements defined here MUST be in the XHTML namespace? ←

15:31:16 <Steven> I don't see that rule anywhere, but I may have missed it

I don't see that rule anywhere, but I may have missed it ←

15:31:27 <Steven> (I see it for attributes)

(I see it for attributes) ←

15:31:56 <Steven> If not, then we don't need to discuss it

If not, then we don't need to discuss it ←

15:32:23 <Roland_> OK, so what is it that we actually want to allow? Once we agree on that we cxan decide which rules need to be added/changed/deleted.

Roland Merrick: OK, so what is it that we actually want to allow? Once we agree on that we can decide which rules need to be added/changed/deleted. ←

15:32:53 <Steven> Roland, if you use a module, that you can import it into a different namespace

Roland, if you use a module, that you can import it into a different namespace ←

15:33:22 <Steven> ie that the definition of the namespace is not hardwired in the module

ie that the definition of the namespace is not hardwired in the module ←

15:33:38 <ShaneM>  For elements too?

Unknown ShaneM: For elements too? ←

15:33:38 <Steven> Roland: FIne with me

Roland Merrick: FIne with me ←

15:33:49 <Steven> Shane, yes, that is the discussion

Shane, yes, that is the discussion ←

15:34:45 <Steven> s/cx/c/

15:35:39 <ShaneM>  It was absolutely the intent that XHTML M12N module elements are in the xhtml namespace.

Unknown ShaneM: It was absolutely the intent that XHTML M12N module elements are in the xhtml namespace. ←

15:36:16 <Steven> Yes Shane, but does it *say* that?

Yes Shane, but does it *say* that? ←

15:36:30 <Steven> We may have intended it, but not required it

We may have intended it, but not required it ←

15:37:08 <Steven> Steven: Looking at the time, and that we have a session with the HTML WG at 11, maybe we should break for coffee now

Steven Pemberton: Looking at the time, and that we have a session with the HTML WG at 11, maybe we should break for coffee now ←

15:37:26 <ShaneM>  Well - in fact we may explicitly permit the opposite.  See section 3.3.  clause 5

Unknown ShaneM: Well - in fact we may explicitly permit the opposite. See section 3.3. clause 5 ←

15:37:34 <Steven> Question - we want to talk about future meetings; who will be around later to join that?

Question - we want to talk about future meetings; who will be around later to join that? ←

15:37:50 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2007/ED-xhtml-modularization-20071002/conformance.html#s_conform_module

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2007/ED-xhtml-modularization-20071002/conformance.html#s_conform_module ←

15:38:57 <ShaneM>  I suspect this was to permit the SVG use of "a" and "p" but I dont remember

Unknown ShaneM: I suspect this was to permit the SVG use of "a" and "p" but I dont remember ←

15:40:37 <Steven> We are breaking for coffee, and html wg session

We are breaking for coffee, and html wg session ←

15:40:43 <Steven> watch this space

watch this space ←

15:40:56 <ShaneM>  The implication of this text, to me, is that XHTML Family Modules define their elements (and attributes) in a namespace, but that other modules are permitted to import them into another namespace as long as the content model remains the same or expands.

Unknown ShaneM: The implication of this text, to me, is that XHTML Family Modules define their elements (and attributes) in a namespace, but that other modules are permitted to import them into another namespace as long as the content model remains the same or expands. ←

15:40:57 <ShaneM>  ok

Unknown ShaneM: ok ←

15:42:24 <alessio> steven, do you intend also future FTF's?

Unknown alessio: steven, do you intend also future FTF's? ←

15:43:33 <alessio> because I would like to propose a possible FTF in Venice, Italy

Unknown alessio: because I would like to propose a possible FTF in Venice, Italy ←

15:46:11 <alessio> maybe with PF and GRDDL WGs

Unknown alessio: maybe with PF and GRDDL WGs ←

15:57:29 <markbirbeck> You are probably all out having fun, but I'd like to make two comments on the 'M12N modules in other languages' discussion, ready for your return. :)

(No events recorded for 11 minutes)

Unknown markbirbeck: You are probably all out having fun, but I'd like to make two comments on the 'M12N modules in other languages' discussion, ready for your return. :) ←

15:58:39 <markbirbeck> The first is that, when I did my work on the M12N schemas, I was using XForms, MathML and SVG as my 'case studies' in order to get things 'right'. Some of the changes that myself and Shane then made to M12N were based on this experience of trying to mix languages, and I don't think there were any severe limitations that would prevent us from taking a much more 'mix and match' approach.

Unknown markbirbeck: The first is that, when I did my work on the M12N schemas, I was using XForms, MathML and SVG as my 'case studies' in order to get things 'right'. Some of the changes that myself and Shane then made to M12N were based on this experience of trying to mix languages, and I don't think there were any severe limitations that would prevent us from taking a much more 'mix and match' approach. ←

16:00:19 <markbirbeck> Second, over in RDFa-land we've been having discussions with the Open Document people, and they are keen to incorporate RDFa into ODF. They are going to import the attributes into their own namespace, as we've just been discussing, but we should do everything we can to ensure that they can use 'our' modules.

Unknown markbirbeck: Second, over in RDFa-land we've been having discussions with the Open Document people, and they are keen to incorporate RDFa into ODF. They are going to import the attributes into their own namespace, as we've just been discussing, but we should do everything we can to ensure that they can use 'our' modules. ←

16:01:10 <ShaneM>  Note that the schema implementation of XHTML M12N uses "late binding" to define the namespace, just to accomodate this.

Unknown ShaneM: Note that the schema implementation of XHTML M12N uses "late binding" to define the namespace, just to accomodate this. ←

16:01:12 <markbirbeck> (I.e., as opposed to having to 'copy' the modules, in order to get round limitations imposed by the modularisation framework.)

Unknown markbirbeck: (I.e., as opposed to having to 'copy' the modules, in order to get round limitations imposed by the modularisation framework.) ←

16:01:19 <markbirbeck> Yes.

Unknown markbirbeck: Yes. ←

16:02:25 <markbirbeck> It's a shame that it's 'the modularisation of XHTML', because what we really have is a 'modularisation framework', and then a bunch of modules defined in the XHTML namespace. But other people could create a module in a different namespace, and make it 'modularisable'.

Unknown markbirbeck: It's a shame that it's 'the modularisation of XHTML', because what we really have is a 'modularisation framework', and then a bunch of modules defined in the XHTML namespace. But other people could create a module in a different namespace, and make it 'modularisable'. ←

16:05:47 <oedipus> GJR +1 to f2f in venice with PF and GRDDL -- perhaps add devs of EARL, ERT (http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/) -- been good interaction between EARL and GRDDL, but don't know if each is aware of the other's progress

Unknown oedipus: GJR +1 to f2f in venice with PF and GRDDL -- perhaps add devs of EARL, ERT (http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/) -- been good interaction between EARL and GRDDL, but don't know if each is aware of the other's progress ←

16:05:59 <ShaneM>  and many people have, Mark

Unknown ShaneM: and many people have, Mark ←

16:06:59 <alessio> also RDFa, gregory...

Unknown alessio: also RDFa, gregory... ←

16:07:11 <oedipus> yes, good point, alessio

Unknown oedipus: yes, good point, alessio ←

16:08:29 <oedipus> seriously, your remarks about a modularization framework are quite rich food for thought...

Unknown oedipus: seriously, your remarks about a modularization framework are quite rich food for thought... ←

16:08:49 <markbirbeck> Shane...who has?

Unknown markbirbeck: Shane...who has? ←

16:09:47 <ShaneM>  mathml?  svg?  jabber?

Unknown ShaneM: mathml? svg? jabber? ←

16:10:22 <ShaneM>  xforms

Unknown ShaneM: xforms ←

16:13:55 <ShaneM>  our framework was ALWAYS intended for use by other groups.  we were chartered to create a pluggable architecture long before there was a CDF group

Unknown ShaneM: our framework was ALWAYS intended for use by other groups. we were chartered to create a pluggable architecture long before there was a CDF group ←

16:24:55 <Steven> we are back

(No events recorded for 11 minutes)

we are back ←

16:27:47 <Steven> CSB=Christina Bottomly (new WG member)

CSB=Christina Bottomly (new WG member) ←

16:29:54 <CSB> hi!

Scribe problem: the name 'CSB' does not match any of the 7 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Steven Pemberton Roland Merrick Richard Schwerdtfeger Unknown Bleeken Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown CSB: hi! ←

16:30:24 <markbirbeck> Shane, but the pluggable architecture is for XHTML-based languages.

Unknown markbirbeck: Shane, but the pluggable architecture is for XHTML-based languages. ←

16:31:05 <markbirbeck> My point is that the architecture should be for *any* language that one might want to create.

Unknown markbirbeck: My point is that the architecture should be for *any* language that one might want to create. ←

16:31:47 <oedipus> +1 to architecture applying to ANY language

Unknown oedipus: +1 to architecture applying to ANY language ←

16:31:48 <markbirbeck> (We may be agreed that this is a desirable goal. :) I'm just saying that at the moment that isn't what XHTML M12N does...it's currently 'the modularisation of XHTML'.)

Unknown markbirbeck: (We may be agreed that this is a desirable goal. :) I'm just saying that at the moment that isn't what XHTML M12N does...it's currently 'the modularisation of XHTML'.) ←

16:32:23 <Steven> In fact, we did produce a general modularization architecture, but we were only *chartered* do do it for XHTML, hence the name

In fact, we did produce a general modularization architecture, but we were only *chartered* do do it for XHTML, hence the name ←

16:32:35 <Steven> but indeed, the intention was to use it for any markup at all

but indeed, the intention was to use it for any markup at all ←

16:32:47 <Steven> It is only our *modules* that carry the XHTML Namespace

It is only our *modules* that carry the XHTML Namespace ←

16:33:04 <Steven> SO you can use M12N for *any* namespace

SO you can use M12N for *any* namespace ←

16:33:10 <markbirbeck> Mmm...I think you might be reading history backwards. But it doesn't matter. :)

Unknown markbirbeck: Mmm...I think you might be reading history backwards. But it doesn't matter. :) ←

16:33:11 <Steven> as has been pointed out by and to the TAG

as has been pointed out by and to the TAG ←

16:33:31 <Steven> It was a CYA that we named it XHTML Modularization

It was a CYA that we named it XHTML Modularization ←

16:33:52 <Steven> we long discussed whether we should call it XML Modularization

we long discussed whether we should call it XML Modularization ←

16:34:03 <Steven> and decided against it for political reasons

and decided against it for political reasons ←

16:34:18 <Steven> +1 to Venice Alessio

+1 to Venice Alessio ←

16:34:22 <Steven> all for it

all for it ←

16:34:30 <Steven> no better place on earth for a FtF

no better place on earth for a FtF ←

16:35:39 <oedipus> so, we strip out the ML-specifics and deliver a note/WD of XMod - The Extensible Modularization Module?

Unknown oedipus: so, we strip out the ML-specifics and deliver a note/WD of XMod - The Extensible Modularization Module? ←

16:36:09 <Steven> Well Oedipus, if you look, that is already there

Well Oedipus, if you look, that is already there ←

16:36:25 <Steven> Originally there were two specs - the modularization architecture and the modules

Originally there were two specs - the modularization architecture and the modules ←

16:36:33 <Steven> we decided eventually to merge them

we decided eventually to merge them ←

16:36:42 <Steven> but the split is still in the document

but the split is still in the document ←

16:36:48 <Steven> Ah, sorry :-S

Ah, sorry :-S ←

16:37:20 <Steven> Roland: Let us not get bogged down on the mechanisms

Roland Merrick: Let us not get bogged down on the mechanisms ←

16:37:26 <Steven> ... let us focus on the deliverables

... let us focus on the deliverables ←

16:39:09 <Steven> Roland: I think there should be a more generic structure

Roland Merrick: I think there should be a more generic structure ←

16:39:15 <alessio> thx steven

Unknown alessio: thx steven ←

16:39:16 <Steven> ... like head and body everywhere

... like head and body everywhere ←

16:39:30 <Steven> ... and a foot

... and a foot ←

16:39:44 <Steven> ... so a doc can have all three, a table can

... so a doc can have all three, a table can ←

16:40:11 <Steven> ... so not head body and thead tbody, but just use head and bosy

... so not head body and thead tbody, but just use head and bosy ←

16:40:22 <Steven> Steven: So our elements should depend on context

Steven Pemberton: So our elements should depend on context ←

16:40:25 <Steven> Roland: Yes

Roland Merrick: Yes ←

16:40:32 <Steven> Rich: That is good for accessibility

Richard Schwerdtfeger: That is good for accessibility ←

16:41:51 <Steven> Roland: I don't know how we do that in Schema, but it doesn't matter

Roland Merrick: I don't know how we do that in Schema, but it doesn't matter ←

16:42:01 <Steven> STeven: That has never been a constraint

Steven Pemberton: That has never been a constraint ←

16:42:25 <Steven> ROland: ANyway, I think we need a class of structure element more than block and inline

Roland Merrick: Anyway, I think we need a class of structure element more than block and inline ←

16:42:31 <Steven> s/Ro/Ro/

16:42:41 <Nick> s/STeven/Steven/

16:42:48 <oedipus> strong +1 to roland's class of structure

Unknown oedipus: strong +1 to roland's class of structure ←

16:43:11 <Steven> s/AN/An/

16:44:47 <Steven> Steven: In the past things like meta everywhere has been blocked for us by IE that puts meta in the head regardless of where it is in the source

Steven Pemberton: In the past things like meta everywhere has been blocked for us by IE that puts meta in the head regardless of where it is in the source ←

16:45:02 <Steven> ... but that is Not Our Problem (NOP) now

... but that is Not Our Problem (NOP) now ←

16:45:50 <Steven> Roland: THis structure idea makes embedding much easier

Roland Merrick: THis structure idea makes embedding much easier ←

16:45:55 <Steven> s/Th/Th/

16:46:37 <Steven> ... because then you can compose documents much more easily

... because then you can compose documents much more easily ←

16:47:15 <Steven> Steven: Yes! For instance our spec authoring system has separate files for chapters, but if each chapter is an html doc then you can't easily compose them

Steven Pemberton: Yes! For instance our spec authoring system has separate files for chapters, but if each chapter is an html doc then you can't easily compose them ←

16:47:27 <alessio> +1 to roland for me too

Unknown alessio: +1 to roland for me too ←

16:47:28 <Steven> ... this would make composability a doddle!

... this would make composability a doddle! ←

16:47:43 <Steven> [Roland steps to board]

[Roland steps to board] ←

16:48:25 <Steven> Steven: And if each chapter is only an html fragment, you can't load them into html editors

Steven Pemberton: And if each chapter is only an html fragment, you can't load them into html editors ←

16:48:32 <Steven> Roland writes:

Roland writes: ←

16:48:36 <Steven> <section>

<section> ←

16:48:40 <Steven>    <head>

<head> ←

16:48:49 <Steven>     <h>Heading for section</h>

<h>Heading for section</h> ←

16:48:52 <Steven>    </head>

</head> ←

16:48:57 <Steven> </body>

</body> ←

16:49:01 <Steven> </section>

</section> ←

16:49:54 <Steven> ignore last two lines of example

ignore last two lines of example ←

16:50:01 <Steven>    <body>

<body> ←

16:50:04 <Steven>     ....

.... ←

16:50:16 <Steven>     </body>

</body> ←

16:50:19 <Steven>     <foot>

<foot> ←

16:50:22 <Steven>     </foot>

</foot> ←

16:50:27 <Steven> </section>

</section> ←

16:53:50 <Steven> Steven: What is the semantics of foot?

Steven Pemberton: What is the semantics of foot? ←

16:54:10 <Steven> Roland: Think of tfooter, and then generalise

Roland Merrick: Think of tfooter, and then generalise ←

16:56:01 <Steven> Steven: If we focus on composability, I think that will help us focus on what we are trying to achieve, and help answer questions as they arise

Steven Pemberton: If we focus on composability, I think that will help us focus on what we are trying to achieve, and help answer questions as they arise ←

16:56:35 <Steven> Steven: I wonder if this will affect how RDFa defaults @about

Steven Pemberton: I wonder if this will affect how RDFa defaults @about ←

16:56:35 <alessio> <Steven> +1 to Venice Alessio

Unknown alessio: <Steven> +1 to Venice Alessio ←

16:56:36 <alessio> <Steven> all for it

Unknown alessio: <Steven> all for it ←

16:56:36 <alessio> <Steven> no better place on earth for a FtF

Unknown alessio: <Steven> no better place on earth for a FtF ←

16:57:20 <alessio> pardon, irc window is joking

Unknown alessio: pardon, irc window is joking ←

16:57:23 <Steven> Steven: Since currently it defaults to the document, but this might require it to default to the unit of composability (need to think about this)

Steven Pemberton: Since currently it defaults to the document, but this might require it to default to the unit of composability (need to think about this) ←

16:59:01 <alessio> roland, it seems like a generic <tfoot>, semantically could it be a sort of closing <div>?

Unknown alessio: roland, it seems like a generic <tfoot>, semantically could it be a sort of closing <div>? ←

16:59:29 <Steven> Alession, yes, I think so, but with possible extra semantics

Alession, yes, I think so, but with possible extra semantics ←

17:01:23 <Steven> Rich: You see a lot of dics used this way now, they clearly need structure

Richard Schwerdtfeger: You see a lot of divs used this way now, they clearly need structure ←

17:01:39 <Nick> s/dics/divs/

17:02:04 <Steven> Steven: Yes, though they use divs because they are completely presentation free. If there were a way to turn off all existing presentation on an element, I'm sure people would use more meaningful structure

Steven Pemberton: Yes, though they use divs because they are completely presentation free. If there were a way to turn off all existing presentation on an element, I'm sure people would use more meaningful structure ←

17:02:14 <Steven> ... maybe this is a comment we should send to CSS

... maybe this is a comment we should send to CSS ←

17:02:39 <Steven> ... please make it easy to unset all properties on an element, so I have complete control of the presentation

... please make it easy to unset all properties on an element, so I have complete control of the presentation ←

17:02:51 <alessio> I understand, it should have a definite role for content, more than a possible <div role="foot">

Unknown alessio: I understand, it should have a definite role for content, more than a possible <div role="foot"> ←

17:03:01 <Steven> Yes Alessio

Yes Alessio ←

17:03:08 <Roland_> e.g.

Roland Merrick: e.g. ←

17:03:09 <Roland_> <section>

Roland Merrick: <section> ←

17:03:09 <Roland_>   <head> </head>

Roland Merrick: <head> </head> ←

17:03:09 <Roland_>   <body>

Roland Merrick: <body> ←

17:03:09 <Roland_>   </body

Roland Merrick: </body ←

17:03:09 <Roland_>   <foot>  </foot>

Roland Merrick: <foot> </foot> ←

17:03:11 <Roland_> </section>

Roland Merrick: </section> ←

17:03:13 <Roland_>

Roland Merrick: ←

17:03:15 <Roland_> <section>

Roland Merrick: <section> ←

17:03:17 <Roland_>   <head> </head>

Roland Merrick: <head> </head> ←

17:03:19 <Roland_>   <body>

Roland Merrick: <body> ←

17:03:21 <Roland_>     <section>

Roland Merrick: <section> ←

17:03:23 <Roland_>       <head> </head>

Roland Merrick: <head> </head> ←

17:03:25 <Roland_>       <body>

Roland Merrick: <body> ←

17:03:27 <Roland_>       </body

Roland Merrick: </body ←

17:03:29 <Roland_>       <foot>  </foot>

Roland Merrick: <foot> </foot> ←

17:03:31 <Roland_>     </section>

Roland Merrick: </section> ←

17:03:33 <Roland_>   </body

Roland Merrick: </body ←

17:03:35 <Roland_>   <foot>  </foot>

Roland Merrick: <foot> </foot> ←

17:03:37 <Roland_> </section>

Roland Merrick: </section> ←

17:03:39 <Roland_>

Roland Merrick: ←

17:03:39 <Tina> People also tend to use DIVs because they don't understand the concept of semantic-bearing elements. This is a sad fact even in 2007. That's why it is, among other things, important NOT to use DIVs as example elements if semantics is involved.

Scribe problem: the name 'Tina' does not match any of the 7 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Steven Pemberton Roland Merrick Richard Schwerdtfeger Unknown Bleeken Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Tina: People also tend to use DIVs because they don't understand the concept of semantic-bearing elements. This is a sad fact even in 2007. That's why it is, among other things, important NOT to use DIVs as example elements if semantics is involved. ←

17:03:41 <Roland_>

Roland Merrick: ←

17:03:43 <Roland_> <table>

Roland Merrick: <table> ←

17:03:45 <Roland_>   <head> </head>

Roland Merrick: <head> </head> ←

17:03:47 <Roland_>   <body>

Roland Merrick: <body> ←

17:03:49 <Roland_>   </body

Roland Merrick: </body ←

17:03:51 <Roland_>   <foot>  </foot>

Roland Merrick: <foot> </foot> ←

17:03:53 <Roland_> </table>

Roland Merrick: </table> ←

17:04:26 <oedipus> many many uses for foot - pagination information for online text books, for example; things that users will either want to know are there, inspect/read, or want to skip, need as much context as possible to make decision, so like specificity

Unknown oedipus: many many uses for foot - pagination information for online text books, for example; things that users will either want to know are there, inspect/read, or want to skip, need as much context as possible to make decision, so like specificity ←

17:04:28 <Steven> Present+Tina

Present+Tina ←

17:04:31 <Steven> Hi Tina!

Hi Tina! ←

17:04:48 <Steven> Agree Tina

Agree Tina ←

17:04:53 <alessio> developers often use divs to design boxes and so on

Unknown alessio: developers often use divs to design boxes and so on ←

17:05:20 <CSB> yes, <div> is the hold all for web developers

Unknown CSB: yes, <div> is the hold all for web developers ←

17:05:28 <oedipus> the catch-all container

Unknown oedipus: the catch-all container ←

17:05:31 <Steven> Rich: DO we really need the body tag?

Richard Schwerdtfeger: Do we really need the body tag? ←

17:05:38 <Steven> Roland: It makes it explicit

Roland Merrick: It makes it explicit ←

17:05:39 <alessio> so these elements have de facto replaced old <td> in tableless layout

Unknown alessio: so these elements have de facto replaced old <td> in tableless layout ←

17:05:42 <Steven> s/DO/Do/

17:06:04 <alessio> without a real semantic use

Unknown alessio: without a real semantic use ←

17:06:08 <CSB> "<td>" that's kinda how I understand it

Unknown CSB: "<td>" that's kinda how I understand it ←

17:06:39 <Tina> Hello again, Steven. Sorry about late, it's what you might call a very traditional Swedish november weather out here, and it is playing merry hell with my schedules.

Unknown Tina: Hello again, Steven. Sorry about late, it's what you might call a very traditional Swedish november weather out here, and it is playing merry hell with my schedules. ←

17:07:00 <Steven> rrswagent, make minutes

rrswagent, make minutes ←

17:07:05 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

17:07:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/09-xhtml-minutes.html Steven

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/09-xhtml-minutes.html Steven ←

17:07:25 <Tina> I would very much like to see us, atleast, avoid constructs where additional semantics - ie. semantics beyond "nil" - is attatched to DIV elements, in particular as examples.

Unknown Tina: I would very much like to see us, atleast, avoid constructs where additional semantics - ie. semantics beyond "nil" - is attatched to DIV elements, in particular as examples. ←

17:09:14 <Steven> Steven: On the other hand I wouldn't want this discussion to delay putting XHTML2 out as a WD now

Steven Pemberton: On the other hand I wouldn't want this discussion to delay putting XHTML2 out as a WD now ←

17:09:29 <Steven> Roland: Well, we should look to see if there is anything we can take out, like h1-6

Roland Merrick: Well, we should look to see if there is anything we can take out, like h1-6 ←

17:09:33 <Steven> Steven: Oh yes

Steven Pemberton: Oh yes ←

17:09:33 <oedipus> agreed, tina, i'd rather have <PROLOGUE> </PROLOGUE> than <DIV id="prologue"> or <TOC> </TOC> rather than <DIV id="toc" class="fancy-toc">

Unknown oedipus: agreed, tina, i'd rather have <PROLOGUE> </PROLOGUE> than <DIV id="prologue"> or <TOC> </TOC> rather than <DIV id="toc" class="fancy-toc"> ←

17:09:46 <Steven> Steven: And what about hr? :-)

Steven Pemberton: And what about hr? :-) ←

17:09:55 <oedipus> ;)

Unknown oedipus: ;) ←

17:10:08 <Steven> oedipus, but don't forget RDFa and role

oedipus, but don't forget RDFa and role ←

17:10:18 <oedipus> true

Unknown oedipus: true ←

17:11:52 <oedipus> but it is strange to assign a role to something that isn't intended to convey that role, and have it function as that role not because the element contains the construct, but because a role="" has been applied...

Unknown oedipus: but it is strange to assign a role to something that isn't intended to convey that role, and have it function as that role not because the element contains the construct, but because a role="" has been applied... ←

17:12:19 <Tina> oedipus: I think we ALL do!

Unknown oedipus: I think we ALL do! [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Tina ] ←

17:12:35 <Steven> RESOLUTION: We will reopen the hr discussion at a future date

RESOLVED: We will reopen the hr discussion at a future date ←

17:12:55 <Steven> thus overriding the previous resolution on this issue

thus overriding the previous resolution on this issue ←

17:14:41 <Steven> TIna, I agree 100% about not using div for anything but *very* vanilla purposes in our examples

TIna, I agree 100% about not using div for anything but *very* vanilla purposes in our examples ←

17:16:29 <Steven> ROland: Oh! 12:15, lunch calls

Roland Merrick: Oh! 12:15, lunch calls ←

17:16:38 <Steven> s/ROland/Roland/G

17:16:48 <Steven> We are breaking now

We are breaking now ←

17:16:55 <Steven> back at 1.30

back at 1.30 ←

17:17:03 <Steven> (1hr 15 mins from now)

(1hr 15 mins from now) ←

17:17:32 <Steven> Alessio, Mark, how late can you stay?

Alessio, Mark, how late can you stay? ←

17:17:42 <Steven> Just so we can make sure you areound for the meeting discussions

Just so we can make sure you areound for the meeting discussions ←

17:17:54 <Steven> future FtF, call times etc

future FtF, call times etc ←

17:18:16 <alessio> I can rejoin later, because here are 6.30pm ca.

Unknown alessio: I can rejoin later, because here are 6.30pm ca. ←

17:18:24 <Steven> OK

OK ←

17:19:20 <alessio> have a good lunch :)

Unknown alessio: have a good lunch :) ←

17:43:36 <markbirbeck> Some comments on the above:

(No events recorded for 24 minutes)

Unknown markbirbeck: Some comments on the above: ←

17:43:47 <markbirbeck> At xx:44, it is FF that moves <meta>, not IE. :)

Unknown markbirbeck: At xx:44, it is FF that moves <meta>, not IE. :) ←

17:44:14 <markbirbeck> At xx:48, on composability: agree with goal (of course I would...I've been blogging about it for a long time). But a few things to say. First, ensure consistency; at xx:48 use <title> instead of <h>, for example. Second, I'd actually come at it the other way up, and allow the <html> element to be used in other places. This means that HTML could be embedded in Atom, SVG and MathML, by using <html> but it also means we could create modular documents real

Unknown markbirbeck: At xx:48, on composability: agree with goal (of course I would...I've been blogging about it for a long time). But a few things to say. First, ensure consistency; at xx:48 use <title> instead of <h>, for example. Second, I'd actually come at it the other way up, and allow the <html> element to be used in other places. This means that HTML could be embedded in Atom, SVG and MathML, by using <html> but it also means we could create modular documents real ←

17:44:25 <markbirbeck> On yy:02...changes to CSS. :) You have to be kidding, right?

Unknown markbirbeck: On yy:02...changes to CSS. :) You have to be kidding, right? ←

17:45:06 <markbirbeck> At yy:04, I wouldn't get too worked up about semantic and non-semantic divs; that's the kind of discussion that will keep our box of tricks irrelevant for another 5 years. We have a 'philosphy' that what we lacked in the past was not a bunch of elements, but a good set of extension points. Now we have @role and RDFa as great ways to extend documents; why now go back to adding elements? Sure, create modules that have extra elements in like <video> and <

Unknown markbirbeck: At yy:04, I wouldn't get too worked up about semantic and non-semantic divs; that's the kind of discussion that will keep our box of tricks irrelevant for another 5 years. We have a 'philosophy' that what we lacked in the past was not a bunch of elements, but a good set of extension points. Now we have @role and RDFa as great ways to extend documents; why now go back to adding elements? Sure, create modules that have extra elements in like <video> and < ←

17:45:28 <markbirbeck> s/philosphy/philosophy/

18:35:28 <Roland_> rrsagent, make minutes

(No events recorded for 50 minutes)

Roland Merrick: rrsagent, make minutes ←

18:35:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/09-xhtml-minutes.html Roland_

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/09-xhtml-minutes.html Roland_ ←

18:43:34 <Steven> Agree about html element Mark

(No events recorded for 8 minutes)

Agree about html element Mark ←

18:44:55 <Steven> Agree about adding elementsw, and that's what I said a little further down

Agree about adding elementsw, and that's what I said a little further down ←

18:51:43 <Steven> Topic: Documents

(No events recorded for 6 minutes)

2. Documents

18:52:00 <Steven> Christina: We have talked about a tutorial, and a white paper

Unknown Christina: We have talked about a tutorial, and a white paper ←

18:52:11 <Steven> Roland: We have talked about our change of emphasis

Roland Merrick: We have talked about our change of emphasis ←

18:52:32 <Steven> ... and about developing material to explain that story to some audience or another

... and about developing material to explain that story to some audience or another ←

18:52:50 <Steven> ... we should think about who we want to address

... we should think about who we want to address ←

18:53:04 <Steven> Christina: Is it time to start now, or do we need to wait?

Unknown Christina: Is it time to start now, or do we need to wait? ←

18:53:28 <Steven> Roland: Not today, but soon, after we have worked out what and to whom

Roland Merrick: Not today, but soon, after we have worked out what and to whom ←

18:53:34 <CSB> so who would be the target readers?

Unknown CSB: so who would be the target readers? ←

18:54:13 <Steven> Roland: Over time we need a number of documents, for content providers, for tool producers, for pipeline makers

Roland Merrick: Over time we need a number of documents, for content providers, for tool producers, for pipeline makers ←

18:54:24 <Steven> ... to explain the possibilities for adaptation

... to explain the possibilities for adaptation ←

18:54:47 <Steven> CSB: We want one to compare XHTML and HTML4/5 I suppose

Unknown CSB: We want one to compare XHTML and HTML4/5 I suppose ←

18:54:59 <Steven> Roland: Showing the differentiation

Roland Merrick: Showing the differentiation ←

18:55:39 <Steven> CSB: Showingwhat is involved, and how the transformations work\

Unknown CSB: Showingwhat is involved, and how the transformations work\ ←

18:55:56 <Steven> CSB: So this is something or the next 6 months?

Unknown CSB: So this is something or the next 6 months? ←

18:56:02 <Steven> Roland: Definitely

Roland Merrick: Definitely ←

18:56:55 <oedipus> work with EOWG (WAI Education & Outreach) to promote adaptation/cognizance among assisstive technology vendors that this is where the future of the web lies, not in a buttoned-down non-extensible ML

Unknown oedipus: work with EOWG (WAI Education & Outreach) to promote adaptation/cognizance among assisstive technology vendors that this is where the future of the web lies, not in a buttoned-down non-extensible ML ←

18:57:16 <Steven> Steven: And I think a fresh pair of eyes on the XHTML2 spec would be advantageous

Steven Pemberton: And I think a fresh pair of eyes on the XHTML2 spec would be advantageous ←

18:58:17 <Steven> Roland; The point of the abstract markup is to achieve amazing effects without changing the base; think CSS Zen Garden as example

Roland; The point of the abstract markup is to achieve amazing effects without changing the base; think CSS Zen Garden as example ←

18:59:43 <Steven> CSB: So the main audience is enterprise?

Unknown CSB: So the main audience is enterprise? ←

19:00:00 <Steven> STeven: But bear in mind that there are a lot of eyes on us

Steven Pemberton: But bear in mind that there are a lot of eyes on us ←

19:00:18 <Steven> Roland: Sure

Roland Merrick: Sure ←

19:00:41 <Steven> CSB: SO what features are these people interested in?

Unknown CSB: So what features are these people interested in? ←

19:00:45 <Steven> s/SO/So/

19:00:54 <Steven> Roland: I think we need to work that out.

Roland Merrick: I think we need to work that out. ←

19:00:57 <Nick> s/STeven/Steven/

19:01:56 <Steven> CSB: Do we have anyone in this space?

Unknown CSB: Do we have anyone in this space? ←

19:02:04 <Steven> Steven: Well, ROland has worked in this area

Steven Pemberton: Well, Roland has worked in this area ←

19:02:19 <oedipus> entities such as those listed in yesterday's minutes? http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-xhtml-minutes.html

Unknown oedipus: entities such as those listed in yesterday's minutes? http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-xhtml-minutes.html ←

19:02:23 <Steven> STEVEN STeven StEvEn

STEVEN STeven StEvEn ←

19:03:04 <Steven> s/RO/Ro/

19:03:36 <Steven> CSB: SO we need a paper that addresses what is XHTML2 and what are the differences

Unknown CSB: So we need a paper that addresses what is XHTML2 and what are the differences ←

19:03:42 <Steven> s/SO/So/

19:04:07 <Steven> CSB: WHo wants to nominate themself as subject expert?

Unknown CSB: Who wants to nominate themself as subject expert? ←

19:04:12 <Steven> Steven raises his hand

Steven raises his hand ←

19:04:19 <Steven> s/WH/Wh/

19:04:38 <Steven> Roland: THis would be an excuse to start a wiki

Roland Merrick: THis would be an excuse to start a wiki ←

19:04:53 <ShaneM>  we have had a wiki action for like a year.  we dont need an excuse.

Unknown ShaneM: we have had a wiki action for like a year. we dont need an excuse. ←

19:05:35 <Steven> Steven asks systeam about status of mediawiki

Steven asks systeam about status of mediawiki ←

19:05:41 <Steven> hi Shane

hi Shane ←

19:06:21 <Steven> CSB: Can I get a first round of features that would be compared?

Unknown CSB: Can I get a first round of features that would be compared? ←

19:07:11 <Steven> Roland: I would like to see the distinction between the view source principle and ease of authoring

Roland Merrick: I would like to see the distinction between the view source principle and ease of authoring ←

19:08:12 <Steven> Roland: But you could still provide a link to do a view source even when transformed

Roland Merrick: But you could still provide a link to do a view source even when transformed ←

19:08:17 <Steven> Steven: I would like that

Steven Pemberton: I would like that ←

19:10:09 <Steven> Roland: Even if you have transformed, you can still let people see the source

Roland Merrick: Even if you have transformed, you can still let people see the source ←

19:10:27 <Steven> Steven: Yes, it doesn't have to be physically on the client machine unless asked for

Steven Pemberton: Yes, it doesn't have to be physically on the client machine unless asked for ←

19:13:24 <oedipus> but it does need to be there when asked for -- the source is the course of last resort according to the User Agent Accessibility Guidelines -- it may be needed to trigger events in an AT, such as change of voice, pitch, etc.

Unknown oedipus: but it does need to be there when asked for -- the source is the course of last resort according to the User Agent Accessibility Guidelines -- it may be needed to trigger events in an AT, such as change of voice, pitch, etc. ←

19:14:15 <oedipus> UAWG has an outstanding issue on this -- what does "make document source available to user" mean in mashups?

Unknown oedipus: UAWG has an outstanding issue on this -- what does "make document source available to user" mean in mashups? ←

19:14:17 <Steven> Oedipus, I think that DanC has the mantra of View source for learnability rather than last-resort accessibility

Oedipus, I think that DanC has the mantra of View source for learnability rather than last-resort accessibility ←

19:24:40 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/2006/Talks/05-16-steven-XHTML2-XForms/

(No events recorded for 10 minutes)

http://www.w3.org/2006/Talks/05-16-steven-XHTML2-XForms/ ←

19:29:28 <Steven> Steven expound principles behing the design

Steven expounds principles behing the design ←

19:29:40 <Steven> * Device independence

* Device independence ←

19:29:44 <Steven> * Accessibility

* Accessibility ←

19:29:49 <Steven> * International

* International ←

19:29:56 <Steven> * User experience/usability

* User experience/usability ←

19:29:59 <Steven> * Structure

* Structure ←

19:30:04 <Steven> * Composability

* Composability ←

19:30:08 <Steven> * Semantics

* Semantics ←

19:30:13 <Steven> * Separation of concerns

* Separation of concerns ←

19:30:21 <Steven> * Extensible

* Extensible ←

19:30:26 <Steven> * Declarative

* Declarative ←

19:30:40 <Steven> Roland: The most important person is the user

Roland Merrick: The most important person is the user ←

19:38:12 <Steven> Wiki requested

(No events recorded for 7 minutes)

Wiki requested ←

19:38:25 <Steven> s/expound/expounds/

19:38:50 <Steven> Topic: Roadmap

3. Roadmap

19:39:33 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml-roadmap/

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml-roadmap/ ←

19:46:57 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/2007/03/XHTML2-WG-charter

(No events recorded for 7 minutes)

http://www.w3.org/2007/03/XHTML2-WG-charter ←

19:47:19 <Steven> Roland: So let's update the roadmap, and make sure it matches the charter

Roland Merrick: So let's update the roadmap, and make sure it matches the charter ←

20:00:23 <alessio> steven I agree totally with principles

(No events recorded for 13 minutes)

Unknown alessio: steven I agree totally with principles ←

20:00:55 <alessio> ...what about "modularity"?

Unknown alessio: ...what about "modularity"? ←

20:02:00 <Steven> Steven: We should pin transitions to FtF meetings

Steven Pemberton: We should pin transitions to FtF meetings ←

20:02:18 <Steven> Roland: Suppose we were to have three instead of four FtFs,when would that be then?

Roland Merrick: Suppose we were to have three instead of four FtFs,when would that be then? ←

20:02:36 <Steven> Steven: End Jan, June, and then Mid Oct for the TP next year

Steven Pemberton: End Jan, June, and then Mid Oct for the TP next year ←

20:02:55 <Steven> Roland: So LC for Access after the June meeting, and deal with LC comments in Oct

Roland Merrick: So LC for Access after the June meeting, and deal with LC comments in Oct ←

20:07:45 <Steven> Roland: XFrames

Roland Merrick: XFrames ←

20:08:28 <Steven> Steven: I think modulo some editorial fixes it can go (need to check the DB though)

Steven Pemberton: I think modulo some editorial fixes it can go (need to check the DB though) ←

20:08:34 <Steven> Roland: Implementations?

Roland Merrick: Implementations? ←

20:09:01 <Steven> Steven: XSmiles has an implementation of one draft, the guy who was doing XForms in Flash, and Daniel Austin did it in Javascript

Steven Pemberton: XSmiles has an implementation of one draft, the guy who was doing XForms in Flash, and Daniel Austin did it in Javascript ←

20:09:04 <Steven> ChrisL:

Scribe problem: the name 'ChrisL' does not match any of the 7 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Steven Pemberton Roland Merrick Richard Schwerdtfeger Unknown Bleeken Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown ChrisL: ←

20:09:11 <Steven> Present+ChrisLilley

Present+ChrisLilley ←

20:09:22 <Steven> ChrisL: Does it have a separate media type?

Unknown ChrisL: Does it have a separate media type? ←

20:09:25 <Steven> Steven: Yes

Steven Pemberton: Yes ←

20:09:38 <Steven> Chris: SO it would be easy to do with a Firefox extension

Scribe problem: the name 'Chris' does not match any of the 7 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Steven Pemberton Roland Merrick Richard Schwerdtfeger Unknown Bleeken Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Chris: So it would be easy to do with a Firefox extension ←

20:09:41 <Steven> Steven: Good point

Steven Pemberton: Good point ←

20:09:46 <Steven> s/SO/So/

20:10:13 <Steven> Steven: Why not make last call in Feb, after the next FtF?

Steven Pemberton: Why not make last call in Feb, after the next FtF? ←

20:12:13 <Steven> Roland: XML Events

Roland Merrick: XML Events ←

20:12:44 <Steven> Rich: Is XForms looking at this

Richard Schwerdtfeger: Is XForms looking at this ←

20:12:52 <Steven> Steven: The ideas do come from XForms

Steven Pemberton: The ideas do come from XForms ←

20:13:25 <Steven> ChrisL: SVG Tiny 1.2uses XML Events 1.0, and previously had an extended version

Unknown ChrisL: SVG Tiny 1.2uses XML Events 1.0, and previously had an extended version ←

20:13:40 <Steven> ... let me get those extenstions to you, to get them in to the spec

... let me get those extenstions to you, to get them in to the spec ←

20:14:42 <Steven> ACTION: Steven to get XML Events extensions for SVG Tiny 1.2 from ChrisL

ACTION: Steven to get XML Events extensions for SVG Tiny 1.2 from ChrisL ←

20:15:01 <Steven> Shane?

Shane? ←

20:15:12 <Steven> ShaneM_?

ShaneM_? ←

20:16:11 <Steven> Roland: WHat is the outlook for LC on Events2?

Roland Merrick: WHat is the outlook for LC on Events2? ←

20:16:20 <Steven> ... we have a window of Feb or June

... we have a window of Feb or June ←

20:16:41 <Steven> Mark?

Mark? ←

20:18:36 <Steven> ChrisL: Is there a dependency on DOM3 Events?

Unknown ChrisL: Is there a dependency on DOM3 Events? ←

20:18:39 <Steven> Steven: Yes

Steven Pemberton: Yes ←

20:18:59 <Steven> Chris: There is news -- the key stuff is being stripped

Unknown Chris: There is news -- the key stuff is being stripped ←

20:19:07 <Steven> ... and the rest is going forward

... and the rest is going forward ←

20:19:35 <Steven> Steven: Didn't that happen with DOM2 Events as well?

Steven Pemberton: Didn't that happen with DOM2 Events as well? ←

20:19:42 <Steven> (rhetorical question)

(rhetorical question) ←

20:20:11 <Steven> Roland: We can return to that

Roland Merrick: We can return to that ←

20:20:19 <Steven> Roland: XHTML2

Roland Merrick: XHTML2 ←

20:21:37 <Steven> Steven: Shane is jumping up and down to get this out

Steven Pemberton: Shane is jumping up and down to get this out ←

20:21:54 <ShaneM_>  I am here

Scribe problem: the name 'ShaneM_' does not match any of the 7 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Steven Pemberton Roland Merrick Richard Schwerdtfeger Unknown Bleeken Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown ShaneM_: I am here ←

20:22:19 <Steven> Roland: Let's say December for a new WD, and then look to a serious rev for the next FtF

Roland Merrick: Let's say December for a new WD, and then look to a serious rev for the next FtF ←

20:22:38 <Steven> Shane, we were missing the latest ED of Events2 on the drafts page

Shane, we were missing the latest ED of Events2 on the drafts page ←

20:22:57 <Steven> (we were sure there was a later version than the public draft)

(we were sure there was a later version than the public draft) ←

20:23:14 <ShaneM_>  checking

Unknown ShaneM_: checking ←

20:23:59 <ShaneM_>  no there has not been

Unknown ShaneM_: no there has not been ←

20:24:18 <Steven> I could have sworn that you had said there was a rev ready to go public

I could have sworn that you had said there was a rev ready to go public ←

20:24:24 <ShaneM_>  its that one

Unknown ShaneM_: its that one ←

20:24:36 <Steven> in TR space?

in TR space? ←

20:25:17 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-xml-events-20070216/#section-eventhandlers

http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-xml-events-20070216/#section-eventhandlers ←

20:26:14 <ShaneM_>  there have been no changes since then.

Unknown ShaneM_: there have been no changes since then. ←

20:26:25 <Steven> ack

ack ←

20:26:30 <ShaneM_>  nor were there any comments since then as far as I remember

Unknown ShaneM_: nor were there any comments since then as far as I remember ←

20:26:39 <Steven> SO ready for last call then?

So ready for last call then? ←

20:26:43 <Steven> s/SO/So

20:26:48 <ShaneM_>  looking

Unknown ShaneM_: looking ←

20:27:05 <ShaneM_>  btw I think it is insane to wait a year for a last call on access.  there's nothign thre.

Unknown ShaneM_: btw I think it is insane to wait a year for a last call on access. there's nothign thre. ←

20:27:39 <Steven> We can do it earlier, we're setting milestones here

We can do it earlier, we're setting milestones here ←

20:27:57 <ShaneM_>  okay.  there is an xml events 2 comment from john boyer int he issue system

Unknown ShaneM_: okay. there is an xml events 2 comment from john boyer int he issue system ←

20:27:58 <ShaneM_>  from 10 August

Unknown ShaneM_: from 10 August ←

20:28:15 <Steven> Rich and ChrisL are about to send comments too

Rich and ChrisL are about to send comments too ←

20:28:15 <ShaneM_>  two actually.  we need ot address those

Unknown ShaneM_: two actually. we need ot address those ←

20:28:32 <oedipus> i for one would like to hear access go to last call in a shorter time-fram

Unknown oedipus: i for one would like to hear access go to last call in a shorter time-fram ←

20:28:45 <Steven> ok, great

ok, great ←

20:29:18 <ShaneM_>  I have moved the event issues into the event bucket.  let's see what ChrisL and Rich have to say

Unknown ShaneM_: I have moved the event issues into the event bucket. let's see what ChrisL and Rich have to say ←

20:29:44 <ShaneM_>  anything else you need from me?  I have some errands to run with my kids (no school here today for some odd reason)

Unknown ShaneM_: anything else you need from me? I have some errands to run with my kids (no school here today for some odd reason) ←

20:29:53 <Steven> So move forward to February then OK?

So move forward to February then OK? ←

20:30:18 <ShaneM_>  xml events 2?  works for me.

Unknown ShaneM_: xml events 2? works for me. ←

20:30:26 <Steven> no that was access

no that was access ←

20:30:31 <Steven> now done

now done ←

20:31:17 <Steven> So, if we get the new comments for EVents2, do you think we can get to LC in Feb?

Roland Merrick: So, if we get the new comments for Events2, do you think we can get to LC in Feb? ←

20:31:25 <Steven> s/So/Roland: So

20:31:32 <Steven> s/EV/Ev/

20:31:50 <Steven> Steven: Dunno, Shane?

Steven Pemberton: Dunno, Shane? ←

20:32:43 <ShaneM_>  if we get the comments soon, sure.

Unknown ShaneM_: if we get the comments soon, sure. ←

20:32:45 <Steven> 5 mins break to get coffee, we will drink it here as we talk, brb

5 mins break to get coffee, we will drink it here as we talk, brb ←

20:33:49 <Roland__> work on the assumption that we get all comments by end of November 2007

Roland Merrick: work on the assumption that we get all comments by end of November 2007 ←

20:36:08 <Steven> thanks Shane!

thanks Shane! ←

20:36:21 <Steven> rrsagent, maek minutes

rrsagent, maek minutes ←

20:36:21 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'maek minutes', Steven.  Try /msg RRSAgent help

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I'm logging. I don't understand 'maek minutes', Steven. Try /msg RRSAgent help ←

20:36:27 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

20:36:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/09-xhtml-minutes.html Steven

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/09-xhtml-minutes.html Steven ←

20:43:33 <Steven> Steven: For the RDFa schedule see http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/RDFa#RDFa_schedule

(No events recorded for 7 minutes)

Steven Pemberton: For the RDFa schedule see http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/RDFa#RDFa_schedule ←

21:02:22 <Steven> Topic: Role for object

(No events recorded for 18 minutes)

4. Role for object

21:02:48 <Steven> Alessio: I think we can put role to good use on the object element

Scribe problem: the name 'Alessio' does not match any of the 7 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Steven Pemberton Roland Merrick Richard Schwerdtfeger Unknown Bleeken Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Alessio: I think we can put role to good use on the object element ←

21:03:00 <Steven> <object role="audio" type="application/x-shockwave-flash">

21:03:22 <Steven> Alessio: Becauserole is contextual

Unknown Alessio: Because role is contextual ←

21:03:28 <Steven> s/role/ role/

21:04:16 <Steven> Steven: This is because several mediaformats you don't know if it is video or audio etc?

Steven Pemberton: This is because several mediaformats you don't know if it is video or audio etc? ←

21:04:22 <Steven> Aleesio: Yes, exactly

Unknown Alessio: Yes, exactly ←

21:05:34 <Steven> Alessio: I don't like the use of all these new elements.

Unknown Alessio: I don't like the use of all these new elements. ←

21:05:48 <Steven> s/Alees/Aless/

21:06:22 <Steven> Steven: I'd like to think longer, but it looks convincing

Steven Pemberton: I'd like to think longer, but it looks convincing ←

21:06:32 <Steven> Alessio: You can do the same with images

Unknown Alessio: You can do the same with images ←

21:07:01 <alessio> object -> role -> type

Unknown alessio: object -> role -> type ←

21:08:42 <Steven> Alessio: I was looking for a solution for identifying media

Unknown Alessio: I was looking for a solution for identifying media ←

21:09:41 <Steven> Steven: I'd like Mark, as implementer, to comment on this as well (he's not here at the moment)

Steven Pemberton: I'd like Mark, as implementer, to comment on this as well (he's not here at the moment) ←

21:10:37 <Steven> ACTION: Alessio to send a message about identifying media using role

ACTION: Alessio to send a message about identifying media using role ←

21:12:16 <oedipus> +1 to alessio's role for object idea

Unknown oedipus: +1 to alessio's role for object idea ←

21:19:55 <Steven> sort of wrapping up Shane

(No events recorded for 7 minutes)

sort of wrapping up Shane ←

21:20:00 <Steven> Talking about future meetings

Talking about future meetings ←

21:20:09 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

21:20:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/09-xhtml-minutes.html Steven

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/09-xhtml-minutes.html Steven ←

21:27:48 <Steven> Roland: So I propose we meet three times a year

(No events recorded for 7 minutes)

Roland Merrick: So I propose we meet three times a year ←

21:28:07 <Steven> ... and break the link with the Forms WG, in order to make the locations easier for this group

... and break the link with the Forms WG, in order to make the locations easier for this group ←

21:28:52 <Steven> Alessio?

Alessio? ←

21:29:20 <Steven> Roland: So maybe Venice in February

Roland Merrick: So maybe Venice in February ←

21:29:48 <Steven> Steven: I had pencilled in June for Amsterdam

Steven Pemberton: I had pencilled in June for Amsterdam ←

21:31:01 <Tina> Late Feb, in such a case, if possible :)

Unknown Tina: Late Feb, in such a case, if possible :) ←

21:31:35 <Steven> If you promise to come :-)

If you promise to come :-) ←

21:32:21 <Steven> Roland: Then we have three European meetings in a row

Roland Merrick: Then we have three European meetings in a row ←

21:32:53 <Tina> Ah, promise ... that'll be difficult. Depends on my better half :)

Unknown Tina: Ah, promise ... that'll be difficult. Depends on my better half :) ←

21:33:56 <alessio> here I am

Unknown alessio: here I am ←

21:34:21 <Steven> Roland: So where could we go for June? (In the USA?)

Roland Merrick: So where could we go for June? (In the USA?) ←

21:34:27 <Steven> Steven: New York?

Steven Pemberton: New York? ←

21:34:32 <Steven> CSB: A bit hot

Unknown CSB: A bit hot ←

21:34:45 <Steven> Steven: Google?

Steven Pemberton: Google? ←

21:34:52 <oedipus> ah, but then i can accomodate a few people at my place...

Unknown oedipus: ah, but then i can accomodate a few people at my place... ←

21:35:03 <Steven> Where oedipus?

Where oedipus? ←

21:35:11 <oedipus> NYC

Unknown oedipus: NYC ←

21:35:32 <alessio> mmmm... in venice usually february is still "burning" for carnival :)

Unknown alessio: mmmm... in venice usually february is still "burning" for carnival :) ←

21:35:32 <Steven> Steven: There is a certain value to clustering where people are based

Steven Pemberton: There is a certain value to clustering where people are based ←

21:35:42 <oedipus> i live 15 miles from central park in new jersey (a.k.a. joisey)

Unknown oedipus: i live 15 miles from central park in new jersey (a.k.a. joisey) ←

21:35:52 <Steven> Carnival is early this year right?

Carnival is early this year right? ←

21:36:01 <alessio> yes

Unknown alessio: yes ←

21:36:13 <Steven> So when is Venice restful again?

So when is Venice restful again? ←

21:36:27 <alessio> surely it will be full of people

Unknown alessio: surely it will be full of people ←

21:36:39 <alessio> what about venice in june?

Unknown alessio: what about venice in june? ←

21:36:52 <Steven> A bit hot in June surely?

A bit hot in June surely? ←

21:37:14 <oedipus> warmer than amsterdam, though :-)

Unknown oedipus: warmer than amsterdam, though :-) ←

21:37:44 <alessio> roberto (scano) has told me that may/june should be good

Unknown alessio: roberto (scano) has told me that may/june should be good ←

21:41:14 <alessio> anyway, from second week of february it could be more "human" to organize

Unknown alessio: anyway, from second week of february it could be more "human" to organize ←

21:42:01 <alessio> if you plan to make june's FTF in US

Unknown alessio: if you plan to make june's FTF in US ←

21:43:12 <Tina> Basically I am in London for business likely first and second week of feb. 3rd and 4th I should be avail. for Venice, if all goes well and my clients do not panic.

Unknown Tina: Basically I am in London for business likely first and second week of feb. 3rd and 4th I should be avail. for Venice, if all goes well and my clients do not panic. ←

21:43:57 <Tina> June, now, that's abit too far to plan! :)

Unknown Tina: June, now, that's abit too far to plan! :) ←

21:46:55 <alessio> carnival is from january 25th to february 5th

Unknown alessio: carnival is from january 25th to february 5th ←

21:48:36 <Roland__> how about week beginning 11 Feb?

Roland Merrick: how about week beginning 11 Feb? ←

21:48:43 <Steven> ROland: How about this: Venice Feb, New York/Boston in June, and France in October

Roland Merrick: How about this: Venice Feb, New York/Boston in June, and France in October ←

21:49:24 <Steven> s/ROland/Roland/G

s/ROland/Roland/G (warning: replacement failed) ←

21:50:06 <Tina> Although the later in Feb the better.

Unknown Tina: Although the later in Feb the better. ←

21:50:52 <Roland__> then how about Feb 18-20?

Roland Merrick: then how about Feb 18-20? ←

21:51:00 <Steven> Sounds like a plan Alessio

Sounds like a plan Alessio ←

21:51:02 <alessio> better

Unknown alessio: better ←

21:51:33 <Steven> *  18-20 Feb Venice

* 18-20 Feb Venice ←

21:51:56 <Steven> * Mid June NY or Boston

* Mid June NY or Boston ←

21:52:39 <alessio> good, so we can propose it to PF and RDFa too if you agree...

Unknown alessio: good, so we can propose it to PF and RDFa too if you agree... ←

21:52:43 <Steven> * s/Mid/16-18/

* s/Mid/16-18/ ←

21:53:07 <Steven> * October France

* October France ←

21:53:29 <Nick> http://www.w3.org/2008/10/TPAC/Overview.html

Scribe problem: the name 'Nick' does not match any of the 7 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Steven Pemberton Roland Merrick Richard Schwerdtfeger Unknown Bleeken Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Nick: http://www.w3.org/2008/10/TPAC/Overview.html ←

21:56:12 <Steven> So we need a volunteer for hosting in June

Roland Merrick: So we need a volunteer for hosting in June ←

21:56:27 <Steven> s/So/Roland: So/

21:56:36 <Steven> Steven: Hmm, Shane maybe ;-)

Steven Pemberton: Hmm, Shane maybe ;-) ←

21:56:44 <Steven> Bye Tina

Bye Tina ←

21:56:47 <Steven> Thanks for being here

Thanks for being here ←

21:56:53 <alessio> goos night tina :)

Unknown alessio: good night tina :) ←

21:58:00 <alessio> s/goos/good/

22:09:42 <Steven> ADJOURNED

(No events recorded for 12 minutes)

ADJOURNED ←

22:09:51 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

22:09:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/09-xhtml-minutes.html Steven

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/09-xhtml-minutes.html Steven ←

22:10:11 <oedipus> goodnight ladies and gentlemen, it was a pleasure...

Unknown oedipus: goodnight ladies and gentlemen, it was a pleasure... ←

22:10:56 <alessio> have a good night, gregory :)

Unknown alessio: have a good night, gregory :) ←

22:11:05 <oedipus> you, too, alessio!

Unknown oedipus: you, too, alessio! ←

22:11:38 <oedipus> thanks steven for being so open to remote participation -- i greatly appreciate it

Unknown oedipus: thanks steven for being so open to remote participation -- i greatly appreciate it ←

22:12:04 <alessio> me too, really

Unknown alessio: me too, really ←

22:12:08 <Steven> It worked! Thanks for being here

It worked! Thanks for being here ←

22:12:33 <oedipus> my pleasure -- THIS is a WG i look forward to working with when i boot my PC!

Unknown oedipus: my pleasure -- THIS is a WG i look forward to working with when i boot my PC! ←

22:12:54 <Steven> That's what I like to hear!

That's what I like to hear! ←

22:13:08 <Steven> We have had a lot of good comments from people here in the halls

We have had a lot of good comments from people here in the halls ←

22:13:26 <alessio> great!

Unknown alessio: great! ←

22:13:42 <Steven> Bye all!

Bye all! ←

22:13:44 <oedipus> yeah, that's the bit i miss very much -- i'll probably type/talk to you tomorrow at the (final?) ARIA meeting

Unknown oedipus: yeah, that's the bit i miss very much -- i'll probably type/talk to you tomorrow at the (final?) ARIA meeting ←

22:16:55 <alessio> bye all... ciao a tutti!

Unknown alessio: bye all... ciao a tutti! ←

Formatted by CommonScribe