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SPARQL Working Group

Minutes of 08 December 2010

Seen
Andy Seaborne, Gregory Williams, Lee Feigenbaum, Paula Gearon, Steve Harris
IRC Log
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Resolutions

None.

Topics

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15:57:03 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/12/08-sparql-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/12/08-sparql-irc

15:57:08 <LeeF> zakim, room for 6?

Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, room for 6?

15:57:10 <Zakim> ok, LeeF; conference Team_(sparql)15:57Z scheduled with code 772775 (SPARQL) for 60 minutes until 1657Z

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, LeeF; conference Team_(sparql)15:57Z scheduled with code 772775 (SPARQL) for 60 minutes until 1657Z

15:57:20 <LeeF> rrsagent, make logs world

Lee Feigenbaum: rrsagent, make logs world

15:57:22 <LeeF> thanks

Lee Feigenbaum: thanks

15:57:39 <Zakim> Team_(sparql)15:57Z has now started

Zakim IRC Bot: Team_(sparql)15:57Z has now started

15:57:46 <Zakim> +SteveH

Zakim IRC Bot: +SteveH

15:57:49 <Zakim> +LeeF

Zakim IRC Bot: +LeeF

15:58:30 <Zakim> +kasei

Zakim IRC Bot: +kasei

15:58:35 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller]

15:58:44 <AndyS> zakim, IPcaller is me

Andy Seaborne: zakim, IPcaller is me

15:58:44 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it

15:58:48 <LeeF> pgearon, going to join us?

Lee Feigenbaum: pgearon, going to join us?

15:59:22 <pgearon> coincidentally, I'm dialing now

Paula Gearon: coincidentally, I'm dialing now

15:59:26 <SteveH> can we have error message returns on the agenda? there was a lot of discussion on the list, but not recently

Steve Harris: can we have error message returns on the agenda? there was a lot of discussion on the list, but not recently

15:59:34 <pgearon> normal number?

Paula Gearon: normal number?

15:59:37 <LeeF> yup

Lee Feigenbaum: yup

15:59:39 <LeeF> code 772775

Lee Feigenbaum: code 772775

16:00:04 <Zakim> +pgearon

Zakim IRC Bot: +pgearon

16:02:11 <kasei> Zakim, pick an editor

Gregory Williams: Zakim, pick an editor

16:02:11 <Zakim> I don't understand 'pick an editor', kasei

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'pick an editor', kasei

16:02:12 <kasei> :)

Gregory Williams: :)

16:02:18 <LeeF>  :D

Lee Feigenbaum: :D

16:03:51 <LeeF> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/protocol-1.1/

Lee Feigenbaum: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/protocol-1.1/

16:03:52 <LeeF> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/protocol-1.1/#update-operation

Lee Feigenbaum: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/protocol-1.1/#update-operation

16:04:33 <LeeF> topic: content of an update request

1. content of an update request

16:04:39 <LeeF> """

Lee Feigenbaum: """

16:04:40 <LeeF> Abstractly, the contents of the In Message of SparqlProtocol's update operation is an

Lee Feigenbaum: Abstractly, the contents of the In Message of SparqlProtocol's update operation is an

16:04:40 <LeeF> instance of an XML Schema complex type, called st:update-request, composed of one further

Lee Feigenbaum: instance of an XML Schema complex type, called st:update-request, composed of one further

16:04:40 <LeeF> part: one SPARQL update string. The SPARQL update string,

Scribe problem: the name 'part' does not match any of the 64 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ahmed Ezzat Alexandre Passant Andrea Westerinen Andrei Lopatenko Andy Seaborne Axel Polleres Bijan Parsia Birte Glimm Bryan Thompson Carlos Buil Aranda Chimezie Ogbuji Cui Tao Daniel Schutzer Dave Beckett David Charboneau David Newman Davide Palmisano Dhanapalan Kulandai Vadivel Dirk Colaert Dirk-Willem van Gulik Edward Thomas Elias Torres Enrico Franconi Eric Prud'hommeaux Frank Careccia Fred Zemke Gregory Williams Hiroyuki Sato Ivan Mikhailov Jacek Kopecký Jari Vänttinen Jean-François Baget Jeen Broekstra Jeff Pollock John Clark Jos De Roo Kendall Clark Kevin Wilkinson Lee Feigenbaum Luke Wilson-Mawer Matthew Perry Michael Smith Michele Minno Nicholas Humfrey Nico Michaelis Nophadol Jekjantuk Olivier Corby Orri Erling Paula Gearon Prateek Jain Rachel Yager Roland Schwaenzl Sandro Hawke Sergio Tessaris Simon Johnston Souripriya Das Steve Harris Sven Groppe Timo Westkämper Tommi Koivula Yoshio Fukushige Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown part: one SPARQL update string. The SPARQL update string, [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

16:04:40 <LeeF> identified by one update type, is defined by

Lee Feigenbaum: identified by one update type, is defined by

16:04:40 <LeeF> [SPARQL] as "a sequence of characters in the language defined by the [SPARQLUpdate] grammar, starting with the SPARQLUpdate

Lee Feigenbaum: [SPARQL] as "a sequence of characters in the language defined by the [SPARQLUpdate] grammar, starting with the SPARQLUpdate

16:04:43 <LeeF> production".

Lee Feigenbaum: production".

16:04:44 <LeeF> """

Lee Feigenbaum: """

16:04:50 <AndyS> AndyS: Issue: what does a client send for a SPARQL Update request?  www-form or application/sparql-update and a body

Andy Seaborne: Issue: what does a client send for a SPARQL Update request? www-form or application/sparql-update and a body [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ]

16:05:58 <LeeF> http://sparql/endpoint?update=<contents of update request>

Lee Feigenbaum: http://sparql/endpoint?update=<contents of update request>

16:06:20 <SteveH> q+

Steve Harris: q+

16:06:35 <LeeF> ack SteveH

Lee Feigenbaum: ack SteveH

16:06:53 <LeeF> SteveH: 4store & 5store use POST form encoding

Steve Harris: 4store & 5store use POST form encoding [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

16:07:26 <AndyS> application/x-www-form-urlencoded   vs   application/sparql-update

Andy Seaborne: application/x-www-form-urlencoded vs application/sparql-update

16:07:27 <kasei> you can post to that, but the update= part isn't the post data.

Gregory Williams: you can post to that, but the update= part isn't the post data.

16:08:13 <LeeF> LeeF: never an intention to do it over GET

Lee Feigenbaum: never an intention to do it over GET [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

16:08:18 <AndyS> You can mix and match : some in ?x=,  some in body as x=

Andy Seaborne: You can mix and match : some in ?x=, some in body as x=

16:08:29 <LeeF> POST /uri

Lee Feigenbaum: POST /uri

16:08:29 <LeeF> ...

Lee Feigenbaum: ...

16:08:34 <LeeF> update=.....

Lee Feigenbaum: update=.....

16:09:23 <AndyS> Fuseki uses request=

Andy Seaborne: Fuseki uses request=

16:11:41 <LeeF> AndyS: if we put whttp:inputSerialization of application/sparql-update, can we POST the update request directly?

Andy Seaborne: if we put whttp:inputSerialization of application/sparql-update, can we POST the update request directly? [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

16:12:14 <LeeF> SteveH: we did it this way because it seemed easier for clients at the time

Steve Harris: we did it this way because it seemed easier for clients at the time [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

16:12:18 <LeeF> AndyS: depends on the client

Andy Seaborne: depends on the client [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

16:12:27 <LeeF> ... in ruby without extra gems, doing straight POST is easier

Lee Feigenbaum: ... in ruby without extra gems, doing straight POST is easier

16:14:45 <LeeF> AndyS: if it's a form you can't stream a massive load straight into the database

Andy Seaborne: if it's a form you can't stream a massive load straight into the database [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

16:15:05 <LeeF> LeeF: straight post of update request wouldn't allow other parameters

Lee Feigenbaum: straight post of update request wouldn't allow other parameters [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

16:15:10 <LeeF> AndyS: other parameters could go in query string

Andy Seaborne: other parameters could go in query string [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

16:15:16 <LeeF> LeeF: not sure how that works in WSDL specification

Lee Feigenbaum: not sure how that works in WSDL specification [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

16:17:24 <kasei> I would like to see support for both.

Gregory Williams: I would like to see support for both.

16:23:45 <LeeF> ACTION: Lee to look up how whttp:inputSerialization="application/sparql-update" would work and whether additional parameters could be included in the request URI query string

(No events recorded for 6 minutes)

ACTION: Lee to look up how whttp:inputSerialization="application/sparql-update" would work and whether additional parameters could be included in the request URI query string

16:23:46 <trackbot> Created ACTION-341 - Look up how whttp:inputSerialization="application/sparql-update" would work and whether additional parameters could be included in the request URI query string [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2010-12-15].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-341 - Look up how whttp:inputSerialization="application/sparql-update" would work and whether additional parameters could be included in the request URI query string [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2010-12-15].

16:25:00 <LeeF> topic: Other arguments in update protocol requests

2. Other arguments in update protocol requests

16:25:29 <AndyS> USING and USING NAMED -- affect the WHERE part of an operation (not set whole request)

Andy Seaborne: USING and USING NAMED -- affect the WHERE part of an operation (not set whole request)

16:25:45 <pgearon> like LeeF, I expected we would have similar names in the protocol

Paula Gearon: like LeeF, I expected we would have similar names in the protocol

16:25:57 <SteveH> me too

Steve Harris: me too

16:26:11 <SteveH> ...but we've not implemented it

Steve Harris: ...but we've not implemented it

16:33:43 <LeeF> LeeF: what do we do if WSDL does not give us a way to specify that one of the arguments (the update request string) get POSTed directly in the content body and the other two arguments get communicated in the query string

(No events recorded for 7 minutes)

Lee Feigenbaum: what do we do if WSDL does not give us a way to specify that one of the arguments (the update request string) get POSTed directly in the content body and the other two arguments get communicated in the query string [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

16:33:55 <LeeF> AndyS & SteveH: let's cross that bridge if/when we get to it

Lee Feigenbaum: AndyS & SteveH: let's cross that bridge if/when we get to it

16:34:18 <LeeF> SteveH: concerned that mixing POST body content and query string parameters won't sit well with some systems

Steve Harris: concerned that mixing POST body content and query string parameters won't sit well with some systems [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

16:34:56 <LeeF> SteveH: concerned that will be tough with some server tool sets

Steve Harris: concerned that will be tough with some server tool sets [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

16:35:51 <AndyS> RFC 3986 : Section 3 -> queryString is valid in any URI

Andy Seaborne: RFC 3986 : Section 3 -> queryString is valid in any URI

16:36:13 <LeeF> LeeF: when this gets into the document, we can ask for implementor feedback on POSTing with body content and arguments in the parameters

Lee Feigenbaum: when this gets into the document, we can ask for implementor feedback on POSTing with body content and arguments in the parameters [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

16:38:34 <LeeF> topic: response content

3. response content

16:38:59 <LeeF> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/60

Lee Feigenbaum: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/60

16:39:13 <LeeF> for update requests that succeed

Lee Feigenbaum: for update requests that succeed

16:39:28 <LeeF> 200 response code?

Lee Feigenbaum: 200 response code?

16:40:21 <LeeF> no concept of update return values in SPARQL Update language

Lee Feigenbaum: no concept of update return values in SPARQL Update language

16:40:33 <LeeF> AndyS: fuseki returns text/plain with human-oriented success message

Andy Seaborne: fuseki returns text/plain with human-oriented success message [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

16:41:05 <LeeF> ... 204 (no content)

Lee Feigenbaum: ... 204 (no content)

16:41:30 <AndyS> Case 1 : form => 200 and text Case 2 : direct POST => 204

Andy Seaborne: Case 1 : form => 200 and text Case 2 : direct POST => 204

16:41:36 <pgearon> Mulgara (which has its own protocol for the moment), sends back 20x responses. If relevant, an extra header is added for extra info. (eg. triples inserted)

Paula Gearon: Mulgara (which has its own protocol for the moment), sends back 20x responses. If relevant, an extra header is added for extra info. (eg. triples inserted)

16:43:06 <LeeF> SteveH: we return 200 and text/plain content

Steve Harris: we return 200 and text/plain content [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

16:44:29 <kasei> I'd be happy with SHOULD 200 with text/plain, allowing people to add more structured data and/or use other 2XX values if they have a good reason to...

Gregory Williams: I'd be happy with SHOULD 200 with text/plain, allowing people to add more structured data and/or use other 2XX values if they have a good reason to...

16:46:52 <LeeF> What if we just say MUST return a 2xx response code

Lee Feigenbaum: What if we just say MUST return a 2xx response code

16:47:08 <SteveH> yup

Steve Harris: yup

16:48:49 <kasei> 202 is accepted

Gregory Williams: 202 is accepted

16:48:52 <kasei> 201 is created

Gregory Williams: 201 is created

16:50:28 <AndyS> HTTP spec says 200 or 204 for POST , also 201 and 303

Andy Seaborne: HTTP spec says 200 or 204 for POST , also 201 and 303

16:50:52 <AndyS> Ahh - POST - 303 - GET design

Andy Seaborne: Ahh - POST - 303 - GET design

16:51:21 <kasei> to avoid hitting reload causing problems

Gregory Williams: to avoid hitting reload causing problems

16:55:09 <LeeF> topic: faults and error messages

4. faults and error messages

16:55:14 <AndyS> Leef: can we not define anything specific, and suggest via examples?

Lee Feigenbaum: can we not define anything specific, and suggest via examples? [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ]

16:55:24 <AndyS> (for SC to POST)

Andy Seaborne: (for SC to POST)

16:55:51 <LeeF> What explicit faults do we define? For each fault, what HTTP response code does it correspond with? How can error messages / error details be communicated?

Lee Feigenbaum: What explicit faults do we define? For each fault, what HTTP response code does it correspond with? How can error messages / error details be communicated?

17:01:05 <LeeF> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2010Sep/0002.html

(No events recorded for 5 minutes)

Lee Feigenbaum: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2010Sep/0002.html

17:01:46 <LeeF> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2010Oct/0011.html

Lee Feigenbaum: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2010Oct/0011.html

17:03:24 <LeeF> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2010Oct/0009.html

Lee Feigenbaum: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2010Oct/0009.html

17:04:54 <LeeF> 1. Protocol specifies that error messages SHOULD be communicated in XHTML

Lee Feigenbaum: 1. Protocol specifies that error messages SHOULD be communicated in XHTML

17:05:09 <LeeF> 2. Tha XHTML should contain the details of the error in a predictable place

Lee Feigenbaum: 2. Tha XHTML should contain the details of the error in a predictable place

17:05:21 <LeeF> 2a. an element with a particular, well-known id="..."

Lee Feigenbaum: 2a. an element with a particular, well-known id="..."

17:05:26 <LeeF> 2b. with RDFa

Lee Feigenbaum: 2b. with RDFa

17:05:30 <LeeF> 2c. with a particular class

Lee Feigenbaum: 2c. with a particular class

17:08:33 <LeeF> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2010Oct/0023.html

Lee Feigenbaum: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2010Oct/0023.html

17:08:39 <AndyS> "406 Not Acceptable" seems the one

Andy Seaborne: "406 Not Acceptable" seems the one

17:08:40 <LeeF> -----> proposes extending SPARQL XML format

Lee Feigenbaum: -----> proposes extending SPARQL XML format

17:10:59 <SteveH> curl -I -H 'Accept: nonsuch/type' http://apache.org/

Steve Harris: curl -I -H 'Accept: nonsuch/type' http://apache.org/

17:11:04 <SteveH> returns a 200, and some HTML

Steve Harris: returns a 200, and some HTML

17:13:06 <LeeF> final message in thread - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2010Oct/0035.html - suggests just getting text/plain errors

Lee Feigenbaum: final message in thread - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2010Oct/0035.html - suggests just getting text/plain errors

17:20:24 <AndyS> +1 to JSON-powered clients.

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Andy Seaborne: +1 to JSON-powered clients.

17:20:50 <LeeF> SteveH: Richard C's message seems to indicate that text/plain is the most common option

Steve Harris: Richard C's message seems to indicate that text/plain is the most common option [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

17:21:54 <pgearon> I'd like to see human text/plain for a human readable message, and optional X- headers for extra structured information

Paula Gearon: I'd like to see human text/plain for a human readable message, and optional X- headers for extra structured information

17:21:55 <LeeF> do nothing or suggest tex/tplain?

Lee Feigenbaum: do nothing or suggest tex/tplain?

17:22:05 <kasei> leaning slightly towards doing nothing for fear of blocking future decisions.

Gregory Williams: leaning slightly towards doing nothing for fear of blocking future decisions.

17:22:28 <kasei> :|

Gregory Williams: :|

17:28:07 <AndyS> RFC1867 HTTP file upload

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Andy Seaborne: RFC1867 HTTP file upload

17:33:58 <AndyS> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5789

(No events recorded for 5 minutes)

Andy Seaborne: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5789

17:34:41 <SteveH> PATCH http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5789

Steve Harris: PATCH http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5789

17:36:07 <kasei> I think we should punt on this

Gregory Williams: I think we should punt on this

17:37:05 <LeeF> """

Lee Feigenbaum: """

17:37:06 <LeeF> If

Lee Feigenbaum: If

17:37:06 <LeeF>    the operation does not modify the resource identified by the Request-

Lee Feigenbaum: the operation does not modify the resource identified by the Request-

17:37:06 <LeeF>    URI in a predictable way, POST should be considered instead of PATCH

Lee Feigenbaum: URI in a predictable way, POST should be considered instead of PATCH

17:37:06 <LeeF>    or PUT.

Lee Feigenbaum: or PUT.

17:37:07 <LeeF> """

Lee Feigenbaum: """

17:37:26 <kasei> oof

Gregory Williams: oof

17:38:28 <kasei> you get the SD

Gregory Williams: you get the SD

17:40:48 <LeeF> pgearon: thinks PATCH is very good for sparql update over the protocol

Paula Gearon: thinks PATCH is very good for sparql update over the protocol [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

17:40:56 <LeeF> general like of PATCH, extra status codes, etc.

Lee Feigenbaum: general like of PATCH, extra status codes, etc.

17:41:05 <LeeF> general feeling that it might be too new for us to take up at this point in time

Lee Feigenbaum: general feeling that it might be too new for us to take up at this point in time

17:41:13 <LeeF> observation that PATCH requires atomicity

Lee Feigenbaum: observation that PATCH requires atomicity

17:41:31 <LeeF> observation about lack of clarity around what the Request-URI is and how that affects appropriateness of PATCH

Lee Feigenbaum: observation about lack of clarity around what the Request-URI is and how that affects appropriateness of PATCH

17:42:05 <kasei> yeah

Gregory Williams: yeah

17:42:08 <LeeF> SteveH: protocol document should point out that doing a GET on the endpoint gives you the SD

Steve Harris: protocol document should point out that doing a GET on the endpoint gives you the SD [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

17:43:37 <LeeF> kasei: should be a SHOULD

Gregory Williams: is a SHOULD [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

17:44:07 <LeeF> SteveH: discourage people from doing backup/restore on the store by doing GET/PUT on the endpoint

Steve Harris: discourage people from doing backup/restore on the store by doing GET/PUT on the endpoint [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

17:44:12 <kasei> s/should be/is/ in the current SD document
17:45:59 <Zakim> -LeeF

Zakim IRC Bot: -LeeF

17:46:01 <Zakim> -SteveH

Zakim IRC Bot: -SteveH

17:46:02 <Zakim> -pgearon

Zakim IRC Bot: -pgearon

17:46:06 <LeeF> RRSAgent, make minutes

Lee Feigenbaum: RRSAgent, make minutes

17:46:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/08-sparql-minutes.html LeeF

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/08-sparql-minutes.html LeeF

17:46:10 <Zakim> -AndyS

Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS

17:46:13 <Zakim> -kasei

Zakim IRC Bot: -kasei

17:46:14 <Zakim> Team_(sparql)15:57Z has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: Team_(sparql)15:57Z has ended

17:46:15 <Zakim> Attendees were SteveH, LeeF, kasei, AndyS, pgearon

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were SteveH, LeeF, kasei, AndyS, pgearon

17:46:28 <LeeF> RRSAgent, make minutes public

Lee Feigenbaum: RRSAgent, make minutes public

17:46:28 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', LeeF.  Try /msg RRSAgent help

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', LeeF. Try /msg RRSAgent help

17:46:32 <LeeF> RRSAgent, make logs world

Lee Feigenbaum: RRSAgent, make logs world



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