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15:57:03 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/12/08-sparql-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/12/08-sparql-irc ←
15:57:08 <LeeF> zakim, room for 6?
Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, room for 6? ←
15:57:10 <Zakim> ok, LeeF; conference Team_(sparql)15:57Z scheduled with code 772775 (SPARQL) for 60 minutes until 1657Z
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, LeeF; conference Team_(sparql)15:57Z scheduled with code 772775 (SPARQL) for 60 minutes until 1657Z ←
15:57:20 <LeeF> rrsagent, make logs world
Lee Feigenbaum: rrsagent, make logs world ←
15:57:22 <LeeF> thanks
Lee Feigenbaum: thanks ←
15:57:39 <Zakim> Team_(sparql)15:57Z has now started
Zakim IRC Bot: Team_(sparql)15:57Z has now started ←
15:57:46 <Zakim> +SteveH
Zakim IRC Bot: +SteveH ←
15:57:49 <Zakim> +LeeF
Zakim IRC Bot: +LeeF ←
15:58:30 <Zakim> +kasei
Zakim IRC Bot: +kasei ←
15:58:35 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller] ←
15:58:44 <AndyS> zakim, IPcaller is me
Andy Seaborne: zakim, IPcaller is me ←
15:58:44 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it ←
15:58:48 <LeeF> pgearon, going to join us?
Lee Feigenbaum: pgearon, going to join us? ←
15:59:22 <pgearon> coincidentally, I'm dialing now
Paula Gearon: coincidentally, I'm dialing now ←
15:59:26 <SteveH> can we have error message returns on the agenda? there was a lot of discussion on the list, but not recently
Steve Harris: can we have error message returns on the agenda? there was a lot of discussion on the list, but not recently ←
15:59:34 <pgearon> normal number?
Paula Gearon: normal number? ←
15:59:37 <LeeF> yup
Lee Feigenbaum: yup ←
15:59:39 <LeeF> code 772775
Lee Feigenbaum: code 772775 ←
16:00:04 <Zakim> +pgearon
Zakim IRC Bot: +pgearon ←
16:02:11 <kasei> Zakim, pick an editor
Gregory Williams: Zakim, pick an editor ←
16:02:11 <Zakim> I don't understand 'pick an editor', kasei
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'pick an editor', kasei ←
16:02:12 <kasei> :)
Gregory Williams: :) ←
16:02:18 <LeeF> :D
Lee Feigenbaum: :D ←
16:03:51 <LeeF> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/protocol-1.1/
Lee Feigenbaum: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/protocol-1.1/ ←
16:03:52 <LeeF> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/protocol-1.1/#update-operation
Lee Feigenbaum: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/protocol-1.1/#update-operation ←
16:04:33 <LeeF> topic: content of an update request
16:04:39 <LeeF> """
Lee Feigenbaum: """ ←
16:04:40 <LeeF> Abstractly, the contents of the In Message of SparqlProtocol's update operation is an
Lee Feigenbaum: Abstractly, the contents of the In Message of SparqlProtocol's update operation is an ←
16:04:40 <LeeF> instance of an XML Schema complex type, called st:update-request, composed of one further
Lee Feigenbaum: instance of an XML Schema complex type, called st:update-request, composed of one further ←
16:04:40 <LeeF> part: one SPARQL update string. The SPARQL update string,
Scribe problem: the name 'part' does not match any of the 64 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ahmed Ezzat Alexandre Passant Andrea Westerinen Andrei Lopatenko Andy Seaborne Axel Polleres Bijan Parsia Birte Glimm Bryan Thompson Carlos Buil Aranda Chimezie Ogbuji Cui Tao Daniel Schutzer Dave Beckett David Charboneau David Newman Davide Palmisano Dhanapalan Kulandai Vadivel Dirk Colaert Dirk-Willem van Gulik Edward Thomas Elias Torres Enrico Franconi Eric Prud'hommeaux Frank Careccia Fred Zemke Gregory Williams Hiroyuki Sato Ivan Mikhailov Jacek Kopecký Jari Vänttinen Jean-François Baget Jeen Broekstra Jeff Pollock John Clark Jos De Roo Kendall Clark Kevin Wilkinson Lee Feigenbaum Luke Wilson-Mawer Matthew Perry Michael Smith Michele Minno Nicholas Humfrey Nico Michaelis Nophadol Jekjantuk Olivier Corby Orri Erling Paula Gearon Prateek Jain Rachel Yager Roland Schwaenzl Sandro Hawke Sergio Tessaris Simon Johnston Souripriya Das Steve Harris Sven Groppe Timo Westkämper Tommi Koivula Yoshio Fukushige Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown part: one SPARQL update string. The SPARQL update string, [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ] ←
16:04:40 <LeeF> identified by one update type, is defined by
Lee Feigenbaum: identified by one update type, is defined by ←
16:04:40 <LeeF> [SPARQL] as "a sequence of characters in the language defined by the [SPARQLUpdate] grammar, starting with the SPARQLUpdate
Lee Feigenbaum: [SPARQL] as "a sequence of characters in the language defined by the [SPARQLUpdate] grammar, starting with the SPARQLUpdate ←
16:04:43 <LeeF> production".
Lee Feigenbaum: production". ←
16:04:44 <LeeF> """
Lee Feigenbaum: """ ←
16:04:50 <AndyS> AndyS: Issue: what does a client send for a SPARQL Update request? www-form or application/sparql-update and a body
Andy Seaborne: Issue: what does a client send for a SPARQL Update request? www-form or application/sparql-update and a body [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ] ←
16:05:58 <LeeF> http://sparql/endpoint?update=<contents of update request>
Lee Feigenbaum: http://sparql/endpoint?update=<contents of update request> ←
16:06:20 <SteveH> q+
Steve Harris: q+ ←
16:06:35 <LeeF> ack SteveH
Lee Feigenbaum: ack SteveH ←
16:06:53 <LeeF> SteveH: 4store & 5store use POST form encoding
Steve Harris: 4store & 5store use POST form encoding [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ] ←
16:07:26 <AndyS> application/x-www-form-urlencoded vs application/sparql-update
Andy Seaborne: application/x-www-form-urlencoded vs application/sparql-update ←
16:07:27 <kasei> you can post to that, but the update= part isn't the post data.
Gregory Williams: you can post to that, but the update= part isn't the post data. ←
16:08:13 <LeeF> LeeF: never an intention to do it over GET
Lee Feigenbaum: never an intention to do it over GET [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ] ←
16:08:18 <AndyS> You can mix and match : some in ?x=, some in body as x=
Andy Seaborne: You can mix and match : some in ?x=, some in body as x= ←
16:08:29 <LeeF> POST /uri
Lee Feigenbaum: POST /uri ←
16:08:29 <LeeF> ...
Lee Feigenbaum: ... ←
16:08:34 <LeeF> update=.....
Lee Feigenbaum: update=..... ←
16:09:23 <AndyS> Fuseki uses request=
Andy Seaborne: Fuseki uses request= ←
16:11:41 <LeeF> AndyS: if we put whttp:inputSerialization of application/sparql-update, can we POST the update request directly?
Andy Seaborne: if we put whttp:inputSerialization of application/sparql-update, can we POST the update request directly? [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ] ←
16:12:14 <LeeF> SteveH: we did it this way because it seemed easier for clients at the time
Steve Harris: we did it this way because it seemed easier for clients at the time [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ] ←
16:12:18 <LeeF> AndyS: depends on the client
Andy Seaborne: depends on the client [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ] ←
16:12:27 <LeeF> ... in ruby without extra gems, doing straight POST is easier
Lee Feigenbaum: ... in ruby without extra gems, doing straight POST is easier ←
16:14:45 <LeeF> AndyS: if it's a form you can't stream a massive load straight into the database
Andy Seaborne: if it's a form you can't stream a massive load straight into the database [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ] ←
16:15:05 <LeeF> LeeF: straight post of update request wouldn't allow other parameters
Lee Feigenbaum: straight post of update request wouldn't allow other parameters [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ] ←
16:15:10 <LeeF> AndyS: other parameters could go in query string
Andy Seaborne: other parameters could go in query string [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ] ←
16:15:16 <LeeF> LeeF: not sure how that works in WSDL specification
Lee Feigenbaum: not sure how that works in WSDL specification [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ] ←
16:17:24 <kasei> I would like to see support for both.
Gregory Williams: I would like to see support for both. ←
16:23:45 <LeeF> ACTION: Lee to look up how whttp:inputSerialization="application/sparql-update" would work and whether additional parameters could be included in the request URI query string
(No events recorded for 6 minutes)
ACTION: Lee to look up how whttp:inputSerialization="application/sparql-update" would work and whether additional parameters could be included in the request URI query string ←
16:23:46 <trackbot> Created ACTION-341 - Look up how whttp:inputSerialization="application/sparql-update" would work and whether additional parameters could be included in the request URI query string [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2010-12-15].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-341 - Look up how whttp:inputSerialization="application/sparql-update" would work and whether additional parameters could be included in the request URI query string [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2010-12-15]. ←
16:25:00 <LeeF> topic: Other arguments in update protocol requests
16:25:29 <AndyS> USING and USING NAMED -- affect the WHERE part of an operation (not set whole request)
Andy Seaborne: USING and USING NAMED -- affect the WHERE part of an operation (not set whole request) ←
16:25:45 <pgearon> like LeeF, I expected we would have similar names in the protocol
Paula Gearon: like LeeF, I expected we would have similar names in the protocol ←
16:25:57 <SteveH> me too
Steve Harris: me too ←
16:26:11 <SteveH> ...but we've not implemented it
Steve Harris: ...but we've not implemented it ←
16:33:43 <LeeF> LeeF: what do we do if WSDL does not give us a way to specify that one of the arguments (the update request string) get POSTed directly in the content body and the other two arguments get communicated in the query string
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Lee Feigenbaum: what do we do if WSDL does not give us a way to specify that one of the arguments (the update request string) get POSTed directly in the content body and the other two arguments get communicated in the query string [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ] ←
16:33:55 <LeeF> AndyS & SteveH: let's cross that bridge if/when we get to it
Lee Feigenbaum: AndyS & SteveH: let's cross that bridge if/when we get to it ←
16:34:18 <LeeF> SteveH: concerned that mixing POST body content and query string parameters won't sit well with some systems
Steve Harris: concerned that mixing POST body content and query string parameters won't sit well with some systems [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ] ←
16:34:56 <LeeF> SteveH: concerned that will be tough with some server tool sets
Steve Harris: concerned that will be tough with some server tool sets [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ] ←
16:35:51 <AndyS> RFC 3986 : Section 3 -> queryString is valid in any URI
Andy Seaborne: RFC 3986 : Section 3 -> queryString is valid in any URI ←
16:36:13 <LeeF> LeeF: when this gets into the document, we can ask for implementor feedback on POSTing with body content and arguments in the parameters
Lee Feigenbaum: when this gets into the document, we can ask for implementor feedback on POSTing with body content and arguments in the parameters [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ] ←
16:38:34 <LeeF> topic: response content
16:38:59 <LeeF> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/60
Lee Feigenbaum: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/60 ←
16:39:13 <LeeF> for update requests that succeed
Lee Feigenbaum: for update requests that succeed ←
16:39:28 <LeeF> 200 response code?
Lee Feigenbaum: 200 response code? ←
16:40:21 <LeeF> no concept of update return values in SPARQL Update language
Lee Feigenbaum: no concept of update return values in SPARQL Update language ←
16:40:33 <LeeF> AndyS: fuseki returns text/plain with human-oriented success message
Andy Seaborne: fuseki returns text/plain with human-oriented success message [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ] ←
16:41:05 <LeeF> ... 204 (no content)
Lee Feigenbaum: ... 204 (no content) ←
16:41:30 <AndyS> Case 1 : form => 200 and text Case 2 : direct POST => 204
Andy Seaborne: Case 1 : form => 200 and text Case 2 : direct POST => 204 ←
16:41:36 <pgearon> Mulgara (which has its own protocol for the moment), sends back 20x responses. If relevant, an extra header is added for extra info. (eg. triples inserted)
Paula Gearon: Mulgara (which has its own protocol for the moment), sends back 20x responses. If relevant, an extra header is added for extra info. (eg. triples inserted) ←
16:43:06 <LeeF> SteveH: we return 200 and text/plain content
Steve Harris: we return 200 and text/plain content [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ] ←
16:44:29 <kasei> I'd be happy with SHOULD 200 with text/plain, allowing people to add more structured data and/or use other 2XX values if they have a good reason to...
Gregory Williams: I'd be happy with SHOULD 200 with text/plain, allowing people to add more structured data and/or use other 2XX values if they have a good reason to... ←
16:46:52 <LeeF> What if we just say MUST return a 2xx response code
Lee Feigenbaum: What if we just say MUST return a 2xx response code ←
16:47:08 <SteveH> yup
Steve Harris: yup ←
16:48:49 <kasei> 202 is accepted
Gregory Williams: 202 is accepted ←
16:48:52 <kasei> 201 is created
Gregory Williams: 201 is created ←
16:50:28 <AndyS> HTTP spec says 200 or 204 for POST , also 201 and 303
Andy Seaborne: HTTP spec says 200 or 204 for POST , also 201 and 303 ←
16:50:52 <AndyS> Ahh - POST - 303 - GET design
Andy Seaborne: Ahh - POST - 303 - GET design ←
16:51:21 <kasei> to avoid hitting reload causing problems
Gregory Williams: to avoid hitting reload causing problems ←
16:55:09 <LeeF> topic: faults and error messages
16:55:14 <AndyS> Leef: can we not define anything specific, and suggest via examples?
Lee Feigenbaum: can we not define anything specific, and suggest via examples? [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ] ←
16:55:24 <AndyS> (for SC to POST)
Andy Seaborne: (for SC to POST) ←
16:55:51 <LeeF> What explicit faults do we define? For each fault, what HTTP response code does it correspond with? How can error messages / error details be communicated?
Lee Feigenbaum: What explicit faults do we define? For each fault, what HTTP response code does it correspond with? How can error messages / error details be communicated? ←
17:01:05 <LeeF> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2010Sep/0002.html
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Lee Feigenbaum: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2010Sep/0002.html ←
17:01:46 <LeeF> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2010Oct/0011.html
Lee Feigenbaum: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2010Oct/0011.html ←
17:03:24 <LeeF> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2010Oct/0009.html
Lee Feigenbaum: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2010Oct/0009.html ←
17:04:54 <LeeF> 1. Protocol specifies that error messages SHOULD be communicated in XHTML
Lee Feigenbaum: 1. Protocol specifies that error messages SHOULD be communicated in XHTML ←
17:05:09 <LeeF> 2. Tha XHTML should contain the details of the error in a predictable place
Lee Feigenbaum: 2. Tha XHTML should contain the details of the error in a predictable place ←
17:05:21 <LeeF> 2a. an element with a particular, well-known id="..."
Lee Feigenbaum: 2a. an element with a particular, well-known id="..." ←
17:05:26 <LeeF> 2b. with RDFa
Lee Feigenbaum: 2b. with RDFa ←
17:05:30 <LeeF> 2c. with a particular class
Lee Feigenbaum: 2c. with a particular class ←
17:08:33 <LeeF> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2010Oct/0023.html
Lee Feigenbaum: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2010Oct/0023.html ←
17:08:39 <AndyS> "406 Not Acceptable" seems the one
Andy Seaborne: "406 Not Acceptable" seems the one ←
17:08:40 <LeeF> -----> proposes extending SPARQL XML format
Lee Feigenbaum: -----> proposes extending SPARQL XML format ←
17:10:59 <SteveH> curl -I -H 'Accept: nonsuch/type' http://apache.org/
Steve Harris: curl -I -H 'Accept: nonsuch/type' http://apache.org/ ←
17:11:04 <SteveH> returns a 200, and some HTML
Steve Harris: returns a 200, and some HTML ←
17:13:06 <LeeF> final message in thread - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2010Oct/0035.html - suggests just getting text/plain errors
Lee Feigenbaum: final message in thread - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2010Oct/0035.html - suggests just getting text/plain errors ←
17:20:24 <AndyS> +1 to JSON-powered clients.
(No events recorded for 7 minutes)
Andy Seaborne: +1 to JSON-powered clients. ←
17:20:50 <LeeF> SteveH: Richard C's message seems to indicate that text/plain is the most common option
Steve Harris: Richard C's message seems to indicate that text/plain is the most common option [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ] ←
17:21:54 <pgearon> I'd like to see human text/plain for a human readable message, and optional X- headers for extra structured information
Paula Gearon: I'd like to see human text/plain for a human readable message, and optional X- headers for extra structured information ←
17:21:55 <LeeF> do nothing or suggest tex/tplain?
Lee Feigenbaum: do nothing or suggest tex/tplain? ←
17:22:05 <kasei> leaning slightly towards doing nothing for fear of blocking future decisions.
Gregory Williams: leaning slightly towards doing nothing for fear of blocking future decisions. ←
17:22:28 <kasei> :|
Gregory Williams: :| ←
17:28:07 <AndyS> RFC1867 HTTP file upload
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Andy Seaborne: RFC1867 HTTP file upload ←
17:33:58 <AndyS> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5789
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Andy Seaborne: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5789 ←
17:34:41 <SteveH> PATCH http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5789
Steve Harris: PATCH http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5789 ←
17:36:07 <kasei> I think we should punt on this
Gregory Williams: I think we should punt on this ←
17:37:05 <LeeF> """
Lee Feigenbaum: """ ←
17:37:06 <LeeF> If
Lee Feigenbaum: If ←
17:37:06 <LeeF> the operation does not modify the resource identified by the Request-
Lee Feigenbaum: the operation does not modify the resource identified by the Request- ←
17:37:06 <LeeF> URI in a predictable way, POST should be considered instead of PATCH
Lee Feigenbaum: URI in a predictable way, POST should be considered instead of PATCH ←
17:37:06 <LeeF> or PUT.
Lee Feigenbaum: or PUT. ←
17:37:07 <LeeF> """
Lee Feigenbaum: """ ←
17:37:26 <kasei> oof
Gregory Williams: oof ←
17:38:28 <kasei> you get the SD
Gregory Williams: you get the SD ←
17:40:48 <LeeF> pgearon: thinks PATCH is very good for sparql update over the protocol
Paula Gearon: thinks PATCH is very good for sparql update over the protocol [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ] ←
17:40:56 <LeeF> general like of PATCH, extra status codes, etc.
Lee Feigenbaum: general like of PATCH, extra status codes, etc. ←
17:41:05 <LeeF> general feeling that it might be too new for us to take up at this point in time
Lee Feigenbaum: general feeling that it might be too new for us to take up at this point in time ←
17:41:13 <LeeF> observation that PATCH requires atomicity
Lee Feigenbaum: observation that PATCH requires atomicity ←
17:41:31 <LeeF> observation about lack of clarity around what the Request-URI is and how that affects appropriateness of PATCH
Lee Feigenbaum: observation about lack of clarity around what the Request-URI is and how that affects appropriateness of PATCH ←
17:42:05 <kasei> yeah
Gregory Williams: yeah ←
17:42:08 <LeeF> SteveH: protocol document should point out that doing a GET on the endpoint gives you the SD
Steve Harris: protocol document should point out that doing a GET on the endpoint gives you the SD [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ] ←
17:43:37 <LeeF> kasei: should be a SHOULD
Gregory Williams: is a SHOULD [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ] ←
17:44:07 <LeeF> SteveH: discourage people from doing backup/restore on the store by doing GET/PUT on the endpoint
Steve Harris: discourage people from doing backup/restore on the store by doing GET/PUT on the endpoint [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ] ←
17:44:12 <kasei> s/should be/is/ in the current SD document
17:45:59 <Zakim> -LeeF
Zakim IRC Bot: -LeeF ←
17:46:01 <Zakim> -SteveH
Zakim IRC Bot: -SteveH ←
17:46:02 <Zakim> -pgearon
Zakim IRC Bot: -pgearon ←
17:46:06 <LeeF> RRSAgent, make minutes
Lee Feigenbaum: RRSAgent, make minutes ←
17:46:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/08-sparql-minutes.html LeeF
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/08-sparql-minutes.html LeeF ←
17:46:10 <Zakim> -AndyS
Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS ←
17:46:13 <Zakim> -kasei
Zakim IRC Bot: -kasei ←
17:46:14 <Zakim> Team_(sparql)15:57Z has ended
Zakim IRC Bot: Team_(sparql)15:57Z has ended ←
17:46:15 <Zakim> Attendees were SteveH, LeeF, kasei, AndyS, pgearon
Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were SteveH, LeeF, kasei, AndyS, pgearon ←
17:46:28 <LeeF> RRSAgent, make minutes public
Lee Feigenbaum: RRSAgent, make minutes public ←
17:46:28 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', LeeF. Try /msg RRSAgent help
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', LeeF. Try /msg RRSAgent help ←
17:46:32 <LeeF> RRSAgent, make logs world
Lee Feigenbaum: RRSAgent, make logs world ←
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