edit

SPARQL Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 15 September 2009

Present
Andy Seaborne, Lee Feigenbaum, Gregory Williams, Simon Schenk, Alexandre Passant, Luke Wilson-Mawer, Steve Harris, Birte Glimm, Ivan Herman, Axel Polleres, Eric Prud'hommeaux, Paula Gearon, Chimezie Ogbuji, Orri Erling, Prateek Jain
Chair
Lee Feigenbaum
Scribe
Alexandre Passant
IRC Log
Original
Resolutions
  1. Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-09-08, noting Axel's regrets link
Topics
<LeeF> Present: AndyS, LeeF, kasei, SimonS, AlexPassant, Luke_Wilson-Mawer, SteveH, bglimm, ivanh, AxelPolleres, EricP, pgearon, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Orri_Erling, Prateek (PrateekJain-WSU) Jain
13:53:23 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/09/15-sparql-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/09/15-sparql-irc

13:53:25 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world

13:53:27 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 77277

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 77277

13:53:27 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes

13:53:28 <trackbot> Meeting: SPARQL Working Group Teleconference
13:53:29 <trackbot> Date: 15 September 2009
13:53:30 <LeeF> zakim, this will be SPARQL

Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, this will be SPARQL

13:53:30 <Zakim> LeeF, Team_(sparql-func)13:02Z is already associated with an irc channel; use 'move SPARQL to here' if you mean to reassociate the channel

Zakim IRC Bot: LeeF, Team_(sparql-func)13:02Z is already associated with an irc channel; use 'move SPARQL to here' if you mean to reassociate the channel

13:53:34 <LeeF> Chair: LeeF
13:54:40 <LeeF> LukeWM, are you available as backup scribe if necessary?

Lee Feigenbaum: LukeWM, are you available as backup scribe if necessary?

13:54:48 <LeeF> hmm, the scribe list is getting a little unmaintained

Lee Feigenbaum: hmm, the scribe list is getting a little unmaintained

13:55:01 <LukeWM> yes, sure LeeF

Luke Wilson-Mawer: yes, sure LeeF

13:55:27 <AndyS> SimonS - I don't think it has been created.  Coudl you create a file in that dir and cvs ci it in (CVS knows nothing about directories :-()

Andy Seaborne: SimonS - I don't think it has been created. Coudl you create a file in that dir and cvs ci it in (CVS knows nothing about directories :-()

13:55:49 <LeeF> thanks, LukeWM

Lee Feigenbaum: thanks, LukeWM

13:56:03 <SimonS> ok, thanks AndyS

Simon Schenk: ok, thanks AndyS

13:56:41 <Zakim> SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started

13:56:47 <Zakim> +??P2

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P2

13:57:01 <AndyS> zakim, ??P2 is me

Andy Seaborne: zakim, ??P2 is me

13:57:01 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it

13:57:04 <Zakim> + +1.617.960.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.617.960.aaaa

13:57:23 <LeeF> zakim, aaaa is me

Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, aaaa is me

13:57:24 <Zakim> +LeeF; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +LeeF; got it

13:57:42 <Zakim> +kasei

Zakim IRC Bot: +kasei

13:58:19 <kasei> is today a 90 minute call?

Gregory Williams: is today a 90 minute call?

13:58:29 <Zakim> + +049261287aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: + +049261287aabb

13:58:40 <SimonS> Zakim, aabb is me

Simon Schenk: Zakim, aabb is me

13:58:40 <Zakim> +SimonS; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +SimonS; got it

13:58:53 <Zakim> +??P22

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P22

13:58:56 <Zakim> +??P24

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P24

13:58:57 <AlexPassant> Zakim, ?P22 is me

Alexandre Passant: Zakim, ?P22 is me

13:58:57 <Zakim> sorry, AlexPassant, I do not recognize a party named '?P22'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, AlexPassant, I do not recognize a party named '?P22'

13:59:02 <AlexPassant> Zakim, ??P22 is me

Alexandre Passant: Zakim, ??P22 is me

13:59:02 <Zakim> +AlexPassant; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AlexPassant; got it

13:59:28 <LukeWM> zakim, ??P24 is Garlik

Luke Wilson-Mawer: zakim, ??P24 is Garlik

13:59:28 <Zakim> +Garlik; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Garlik; got it

13:59:35 <AlexPassant> yep

Alexandre Passant: yep

13:59:39 <LeeF> Scribe: AlexPassant

(Scribe set to Alexandre Passant)

13:59:42 <LeeF> Scribenick: AlexPassant
13:59:55 <LukeWM> zakim, Garlik has LukeWM,SteveH

Luke Wilson-Mawer: zakim, Garlik has LukeWM,SteveH

14:00:01 <LeeF> zakim, who's on the phone?

Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, who's on the phone?

14:00:04 <Zakim> +LukeWM, SteveH; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +LukeWM, SteveH; got it

14:00:06 <Zakim> On the phone I see AndyS, LeeF, kasei, SimonS, AlexPassant, Garlik

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see AndyS, LeeF, kasei, SimonS, AlexPassant, Garlik

14:00:08 <Zakim> Garlik has LukeWM, SteveH

Zakim IRC Bot: Garlik has LukeWM, SteveH

14:00:14 <Zakim> + +0186528aacc

Zakim IRC Bot: + +0186528aacc

14:00:25 <bglimm> Zakim, +0186528aacc is bglimm

Birte Glimm: Zakim, +0186528aacc is bglimm

14:00:30 <Zakim> +bglimm; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +bglimm; got it

14:00:31 <ivanh> zakim, dial ivanh-voip

Ivan Herman: zakim, dial ivanh-voip

14:00:32 <Zakim> ok, ivanh; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivanh; the call is being made

14:00:34 <Zakim> +ivanh

Zakim IRC Bot: +ivanh

14:00:39 <bglimm> Zakim, mute me

Birte Glimm: Zakim, mute me

14:00:42 <Zakim> bglimm should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bglimm should now be muted

14:01:12 <Zakim> +AxelPolleres

Zakim IRC Bot: +AxelPolleres

14:01:24 <Zakim> +EricP

Zakim IRC Bot: +EricP

14:01:40 <ivanh> zakim, mute me

Ivan Herman: zakim, mute me

14:02:06 <Zakim> ivanh should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: ivanh should now be muted

14:02:12 <kasei> Zakim, mute me

Gregory Williams: Zakim, mute me

14:02:18 <AxelPolleres> zakim, mute me

Axel Polleres: zakim, mute me

14:02:40 <Zakim> kasei should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: kasei should now be muted

14:02:42 <Zakim> + +1.540.412.aadd

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.540.412.aadd

14:02:48 <Zakim> AxelPolleres should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: AxelPolleres should now be muted

14:03:00 <pgearon> Zakim, aadd is me

Paula Gearon: Zakim, aadd is me

14:03:06 <kasei> muting with Zakim is going to be a hassle if it's always this slow...

Gregory Williams: muting with Zakim is going to be a hassle if it's always this slow...

14:03:10 <AxelPolleres> Zakim, unmute me

Axel Polleres: Zakim, unmute me

14:03:26 <ivanh> zakim, unmute me

Ivan Herman: zakim, unmute me

14:03:34 <Zakim> +pgearon; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +pgearon; got it

14:03:41 <chimezie> zakim, mute me

Chimezie Ogbuji: zakim, mute me

14:03:44 <Zakim> AxelPolleres should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: AxelPolleres should no longer be muted

14:03:45 <AlexPassant> LeeF: 60 minutes call (instead of 90 minutes initially planned)

Lee Feigenbaum: 60 minutes call (instead of 90 minutes initially planned)

14:03:46 <LeeF> topic: admin

1. admin

14:03:48 <AlexPassant> topic: admin stuff

2. admin stuff

14:03:51 <LeeF> PROPOSED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-09-08

PROPOSED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-09-08

14:03:56 <Zakim> ivanh should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: ivanh should no longer be muted

14:03:59 <ericP> q+ to ask if we should schedule 90min calls at 13:30Z

Eric Prud'hommeaux: q+ to ask if we should schedule 90min calls at 13:30Z

14:04:02 <Zakim> +Chimezie_Ogbuji

Zakim IRC Bot: +Chimezie_Ogbuji

14:04:04 <Zakim> Chimezie_Ogbuji should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Chimezie_Ogbuji should now be muted

14:04:32 <AlexPassant> AxelPolleres: Regrets to be added to the previous minutes

Axel Polleres: Regrets to be added to the previous minutes

14:04:42 <ericP> q-

Eric Prud'hommeaux: q-

14:04:42 <LeeF> RESOLVED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-09-08, noting Axel's regrets

RESOLVED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-09-08, noting Axel's regrets

14:05:07 <LukeWM> axelsfamily++

Luke Wilson-Mawer: axelsfamily++

14:05:08 <ivanh> +1 to Axel

Ivan Herman: +1 to Axel

14:05:18 <pgearon> congrats

Paula Gearon: congrats

14:05:41 <LeeF> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/F2F2

Lee Feigenbaum: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/F2F2

14:05:45 <AlexPassant> LeeF: Update on the F2F status, please edit the wiki

Lee Feigenbaum: Update on the F2F status, please edit the wiki

14:06:10 <AlexPassant> ... Liaisons ?

... Liaisons ?

14:06:10 <ivanh> q+

Ivan Herman: q+

14:06:14 <LeeF> ack ivanh

Lee Feigenbaum: ack ivanh

14:06:28 <AlexPassant> ivanh: RIF will go to CR very soon

Ivan Herman: RIF will go to CR very soon

14:06:39 <AlexPassant> ... conditional approval need to check with other groups for comments

... conditional approval need to check with other groups for comments

14:06:43 <AlexPassant> ... but no comments expected

... but no comments expected

14:06:55 <LeeF> topic: FPWD

3. FPWD

14:06:59 <AlexPassant> ... happened yesterday

... happened yesterday

14:07:02 <AxelPolleres> on RIF: Axel still following up, LC comments closed, going to Cand. Rec ... ah, ivanh reporting already

Axel Polleres: on RIF: Axel still following up, LC comments closed, going to Cand. Rec ... ah, ivanh reporting already

14:07:20 <SimonS> http://userpages.uni-koblenz.de/~sschenk/sparql-update-1.0/Overview.xml

Simon Schenk: http://userpages.uni-koblenz.de/~sschenk/sparql-update-1.0/Overview.xml

14:07:31 <AlexPassant> SimonS: First draft of the update

Simon Schenk: First draft of the update

14:07:39 <AlexPassant> ... issues to put it in cvs

... issues to put it in cvs

14:07:58 <bglimm> q+ to ask about entailment regimes and updates (deletes)

Birte Glimm: q+ to ask about entailment regimes and updates (deletes)

14:08:02 <SimonS> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/update-1.0/

Simon Schenk: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/update-1.0/

14:08:06 <bglimm> Zakim, unmute me

Birte Glimm: Zakim, unmute me

14:08:07 <Zakim> bglimm should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bglimm should no longer be muted

14:08:21 <AlexPassant> ... slightly outdated version, current status: started from the member submission + wiki content

... slightly outdated version, current status: started from the member submission + wiki content

14:08:33 <AlexPassant> ... discussions on the ML that not yet reflected on the doc (besides wiki content)

... discussions on the ML that not yet reflected on the doc (besides wiki content)

14:08:36 <AlexPassant> ... then clean up

... then clean up

14:09:04 <AlexPassant> LeeF: good idea would be to mention where are the current issues

Lee Feigenbaum: good idea would be to mention where are the current issues

14:09:20 <AlexPassant> ... referencing wiki page with open issues

... referencing wiki page with open issues

14:09:26 <AlexPassant> SimonS: Adding an issue section

Simon Schenk: Adding an issue section

14:09:31 <AlexPassant> ... for issues unrelated to the features

... for issues unrelated to the features

14:09:37 <AlexPassant> ... and mention other issues inline

... and mention other issues inline

14:09:39 <Zakim> + +1.937.775.aaee

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.937.775.aaee

14:09:44 <kasei> ummmm... i seem to be listed as an editor on that update-1.0 page(?)

Gregory Williams: ummmm... i seem to be listed as an editor on that update-1.0 page(?)

14:10:30 <LeeF> update-1.0 is out of date

Lee Feigenbaum: update-1.0 is out of date

14:10:37 <LeeF> the other URL has the most up to date one, kasei

Lee Feigenbaum: the other URL has the most up to date one, kasei

14:10:40 <LeeF> afaict

Lee Feigenbaum: afaict

14:10:44 <pgearon> I wasn't available to help Simon on this iteration. Hoping to pick up the slack with the next one.

Paula Gearon: I wasn't available to help Simon on this iteration. Hoping to pick up the slack with the next one.

14:10:46 <kasei> ok, just as long as that's been fixed :)

Gregory Williams: ok, just as long as that's been fixed :)

14:11:11 <AndyS> -> http://jena.hpl.hp.com/~afs/sparql-1.1.html is combined query and update.

Andy Seaborne: -> http://jena.hpl.hp.com/~afs/sparql-1.1.html is combined query and update.

14:11:51 <AlexPassant> SimonS: another internal iteration

Simon Schenk: another internal iteration

14:12:02 <AlexPassant> LeeF: e-mail to be sent later

Lee Feigenbaum: e-mail to be sent later

14:12:09 <AlexPassant> ... good practice for each document

... good practice for each document

14:12:42 <AlexPassant> ... discuss in the group, then publish

... discuss in the group, then publish

14:12:59 <AlexPassant> ... anybody not involved in X should review X, etc.

... anybody not involved in X should review X, etc.

14:14:08 <AlexPassant> LeeF: anything needed from the group to query editors ?

Lee Feigenbaum: anything needed from the group to query editors ?

14:14:24 <AlexPassant> SteveH: stuff around select syntax

Steve Harris: stuff around select syntax

14:14:43 <AlexPassant> ... can be reolved after FPWD

... can be reolved after FPWD

14:14:47 <AndyS> +1

Andy Seaborne: +1

14:15:19 <LeeF> ack  bglimm

Lee Feigenbaum: ack bglimm

14:15:19 <Zakim> bglimm, you wanted to ask about entailment regimes and updates (deletes)

Zakim IRC Bot: bglimm, you wanted to ask about entailment regimes and updates (deletes)

14:15:41 <AlexPassant> bglimm: Enteilement regime : will it be left open on the update document ?

Birte Glimm: Enteilement regime : will it be left open on the update document ?

14:15:50 <chimezie> zakim, please unmute me

Chimezie Ogbuji: zakim, please unmute me

14:15:50 <Zakim> Chimezie_Ogbuji should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Chimezie_Ogbuji should no longer be muted

14:16:02 <chimezie> entailment regimes only appply to 'active' graphs, so I'm not sure if it is impacted

Chimezie Ogbuji: entailment regimes only appply to 'active' graphs, so I'm not sure if it is impacted

14:17:09 <AxelPolleres> +1 to defer update semantics for higher entailments to entailment regime TF

Axel Polleres: +1 to defer update semantics for higher entailments to entailment regime TF

14:17:15 <LeeF> ISSUE: How can other entailment regimes plug in their semantics to SPARQL/Update?

ISSUE: How can other entailment regimes plug in their semantics to SPARQL/Update?

14:17:15 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-40 - How can other entailment regimes plug in their semantics to SPARQL/Update? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/40/edit .

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ISSUE-40 - How can other entailment regimes plug in their semantics to SPARQL/Update? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/40/edit .

14:17:46 <bglimm> Zakim, mute me

Birte Glimm: Zakim, mute me

14:17:46 <Zakim> bglimm should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bglimm should now be muted

14:17:47 <LeeF> q?

Lee Feigenbaum: q?

14:18:04 <LeeF> topic: Service Description

4. Service Description

14:18:04 <AlexPassant> LeeF: anything else about the documents themselves ?

Lee Feigenbaum: anything else about the documents themselves ?

14:18:22 <AlexPassant> LeeF: would like to reach a decision about the discovery mechanism

Lee Feigenbaum: would like to reach a decision about the discovery mechanism

14:19:03 <AlexPassant> ... polls - speak if you are concerned by any of the proposals

... polls - speak if you are concerned by any of the proposals

14:19:08 <kasei> I'd like to see options 8 and 7' (the RDFa one) be discussed in addition to the ones we've already had strawpolls on.

Gregory Williams: I'd like to see options 8 and 7' (the RDFa one) be discussed in addition to the ones we've already had strawpolls on.

14:19:33 <kasei> Zakim, unmute me

Gregory Williams: Zakim, unmute me

14:19:33 <Zakim> kasei should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: kasei should no longer be muted

14:19:48 <AlexPassant> ... kasei to resume current status

... kasei to resume current status

14:20:01 <AlexPassant> kasei: did my best to summariwe the pros / cons of current proposals

Gregory Williams: did my best to summariwe the pros / cons of current proposals

14:20:22 <AlexPassant> ... optin 1: link header in http and/or html

... optin 1: link header in http and/or html

14:20:28 <AlexPassant> ... will link to a service description document

... will link to a service description document

14:20:56 <AlexPassant> ... option 2 : HTTP OPTION

... option 2 : HTTP OPTION

14:20:59 <AlexPassant> ... * vote against

... * vote against

14:21:03 <AlexPassant> ... 8 vote against

... 8 vote against

14:21:10 <SteveH> my objection to OPTION was cache related

Steve Harris: my objection to OPTION was cache related

14:21:30 <AlexPassant> ... difficult to query

... difficult to query

14:21:41 <AlexPassant> ... option 7: content negociation on the endpoint URI

... option 7: content negociation on the endpoint URI

14:21:45 <AlexPassant> ... 4/1/4

... 4/1/4

14:21:58 <AlexPassant> ... biggest point against would be the reactions of HTTP purists

... biggest point against would be the reactions of HTTP purists

14:22:26 <AlexPassant> ... as not identical resources will be described (e.g. web form)

... as not identical resources will be described (e.g. web form)

14:22:30 <AlexPassant> ... to be discussed:

... to be discussed:

14:22:45 <AlexPassant> ... option 7' RDFa version of the Service Description

... option 7' RDFa version of the Service Description

14:22:56 <AlexPassant> ... encoded in the HTML page / form

... encoded in the HTML page / form

14:23:12 <LeeF> q+ to ask if 7' has the opposite negative of option 7

Lee Feigenbaum: q+ to ask if 7' has the opposite negative of option 7

14:23:19 <AlexPassant> q+ for RDFa and (non-X)HTML

q+ for RDFa and (non-X)HTML

14:23:25 <AlexPassant> ... option 8

... option 8

14:23:31 <AlexPassant> ... implementation issues mentioned by Steve

... implementation issues mentioned by Steve

14:23:50 <AlexPassant> LeeF: Straw poll needed

Lee Feigenbaum: Straw poll needed

14:24:02 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller]

14:24:30 <AlexPassant> ... option 7' opposite negative of the conneg option

... option 7' opposite negative of the conneg option

14:24:42 <AlexPassant> ... return any sort of HTML just to encode the RDFa

... return any sort of HTML just to encode the RDFa

14:24:43 <SteveH> and the drafback of the conneg option

Steve Harris: and the drafback of the conneg option

14:24:46 <LeeF> ack me

Lee Feigenbaum: ack me

14:24:46 <Zakim> LeeF, you wanted to ask if 7' has the opposite negative of option 7

Zakim IRC Bot: LeeF, you wanted to ask if 7' has the opposite negative of option 7

14:24:46 <pgearon> This was my concern

Paula Gearon: This was my concern

14:24:56 <LeeF> q?

Lee Feigenbaum: q?

14:25:00 <LeeF> ack AlexPassant

Lee Feigenbaum: ack AlexPassant

14:25:00 <Zakim> AlexPassant, you wanted to discuss RDFa and (non-X)HTML

Zakim IRC Bot: AlexPassant, you wanted to discuss RDFa and (non-X)HTML

14:25:01 <ivanh> I agree with Lee, 7' is just a more detailed version of 7

Ivan Herman: I agree with Lee, 7' is just a more detailed version of 7

14:25:02 <AxelPolleres> q+ on Option 7' variations.

Axel Polleres: q+ on Option 7' variations.

14:25:49 <AlexPassant> AlexPassant: issue of RDFa in non-X HTML

Alexandre Passant: issue of RDFa in non-X HTML

14:25:57 <AlexPassant> ... more political than technical decision

... more political than technical decision

14:26:01 <AxelPolleres> ack me

Axel Polleres: ack me

14:26:01 <Zakim> AxelPolleres, you wanted to comment on Option 7' variations.

Zakim IRC Bot: AxelPolleres, you wanted to comment on Option 7' variations.

14:26:08 <AlexPassant> .. will imply that endpoints / forms should be XHTML

.. will imply that endpoints / forms should be XHTML

14:26:12 <SteveH> q+ to talk about reverse proxies

Steve Harris: q+ to talk about reverse proxies

14:26:18 <LeeF> ack AxelPolleres

Lee Feigenbaum: ack AxelPolleres

14:26:26 <AndyS> q+ on RDFa and who authors forms

Andy Seaborne: q+ on RDFa and who authors forms

14:26:29 <ivanh> q+

Ivan Herman: q+

14:26:37 <kasei> I suppose GRDDL is also an option.

Gregory Williams: I suppose GRDDL is also an option.

14:26:45 <ivanh> q-

Ivan Herman: q-

14:26:55 <AlexPassant> AxelPolleres: content negociation could return pure RDF or HTML+RDFa

Axel Polleres: content negociation could return pure RDF or HTML+RDFa

14:27:08 <LeeF> q?

Lee Feigenbaum: q?

14:27:33 <LeeF> ack AndyS

Lee Feigenbaum: ack AndyS

14:27:33 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to comment on RDFa and who authors forms

Zakim IRC Bot: AndyS, you wanted to comment on RDFa and who authors forms

14:27:53 <AlexPassant> AndyS: people may not have complete control on the URL of the endpoint

Andy Seaborne: people may not have complete control on the URL of the endpoint

14:28:13 <AxelPolleres> what I meant is, independent of whether content negotiation is supported, we allow both RDFa+HTML or pure RDF/XML as as service descriptions.

Axel Polleres: what I meant is, independent of whether content negotiation is supported, we allow both RDFa+HTML or pure RDF/XML as as service descriptions.

14:28:19 <kasei> q+ to ask AndyS a followup question

Gregory Williams: q+ to ask AndyS a followup question

14:28:27 <LeeF> ack kasei

Lee Feigenbaum: ack kasei

14:28:27 <Zakim> kasei, you wanted to ask AndyS a followup question

Zakim IRC Bot: kasei, you wanted to ask AndyS a followup question

14:28:44 <AlexPassant> kasei: will it affect the HTTP headers of the page

Gregory Williams: will it affect the HTTP headers of the page

14:28:50 <AlexPassant> AndyS: would have less effet

Andy Seaborne: would have less effet

14:28:57 <AlexPassant> ... data is more under control of the service provider

... data is more under control of the service provider

14:29:03 <LeeF> AxelPolleres, I don't understand what you mean by independent of content negotiation. How would this look without content negotiation?

Lee Feigenbaum: AxelPolleres, I don't understand what you mean by independent of content negotiation. How would this look without content negotiation?

14:29:05 <pgearon> +q to ask about RDFa processors in JS

Paula Gearon: +q to ask about RDFa processors in JS

14:29:10 <ivanh> q+

Ivan Herman: q+

14:29:18 <AlexPassant> kasei: proxy ownership issue

Gregory Williams: proxy ownership issue

14:29:24 <chimezie> in ruling these out are we considering these mutually exclusive options?

Chimezie Ogbuji: in ruling these out are we considering these mutually exclusive options?

14:29:42 <LeeF> ack pgearon

Lee Feigenbaum: ack pgearon

14:29:42 <Zakim> pgearon, you wanted to ask about RDFa processors in JS

Zakim IRC Bot: pgearon, you wanted to ask about RDFa processors in JS

14:30:10 <LeeF> ack ivanh

Lee Feigenbaum: ack ivanh

14:30:16 <AlexPassant> pgearon: any RDFa library in javascript ?

Paula Gearon: any RDFa library in javascript ?

14:30:19 <AlexPassant> LeeF: yes

Lee Feigenbaum: yes

14:30:28 <AlexPassant> ivanh: would like to put the RDFa issue aside for a moment

Ivan Herman: would like to put the RDFa issue aside for a moment

14:31:03 <AxelPolleres> +1 to ivanh, allowing RDFa is orthogonal to conneg

Axel Polleres: +1 to ivanh, allowing RDFa is orthogonal to conneg

14:31:21 <kasei> ivanh: isn't this exactly why encoding in RDFa would be a good thing? just one representation of the resource, but with RDF in it.

Ivan Herman: isn't this exactly why encoding in RDFa would be a good thing? just one representation of the resource, but with RDF in it. [ Scribe Assist by Gregory Williams ]

14:32:23 <AlexPassant> LeeF: acknowledge the option of people returning form makes it a little easier

Lee Feigenbaum: acknowledge the option of people returning form makes it a little easier

14:32:36 <AlexPassant> ... purist would argue that there is no for in the conneg

... purist would argue that there is no for in the conneg

14:32:51 <LeeF> q?

Lee Feigenbaum: q?

14:33:08 <AlexPassant> ... separate proposal on the content negociation ?

... separate proposal on the content negociation ?

14:33:18 <chimezie> i think 'self-describing' service resource is more conservative than pure content negotiation

Chimezie Ogbuji: i think 'self-describing' service resource is more conservative than pure content negotiation

14:33:26 <kasei> q+

Gregory Williams: q+

14:33:30 <AlexPassant> why cannot we describe the form in the conneg. RDF ?

why cannot we describe the form in the conneg. RDF ?

14:33:40 <SteveH> yes, strawpoll

Steve Harris: yes, strawpoll

14:33:51 <LeeF> ack kasei

Lee Feigenbaum: ack kasei

14:34:04 <ivanh> q+

Ivan Herman: q+

14:34:04 <AlexPassant> kasei: possible proposal, RDFa without conneg

Gregory Williams: possible proposal, RDFa without conneg

14:34:15 <AlexPassant> ... complaints of the purists as it's not the same resource

... complaints of the purists as it's not the same resource

14:35:02 <AlexPassant> LeeF: do not see RDFa as required

Lee Feigenbaum: do not see RDFa as required

14:35:12 <AlexPassant> ... strawpoll on connect with RDFa as an option

... strawpoll on connect with RDFa as an option

14:35:14 <LeeF> ack ivanh

Lee Feigenbaum: ack ivanh

14:35:47 <AlexPassant> ivanh: issue is not RDF/RDFa but what is the URI of the resource

Ivan Herman: issue is not RDF/RDFa but what is the URI of the resource

14:35:56 <chimezie> though i don't think the alternative should require RDFa but be  one where we *dont* do con neg but encourage RDFa

Chimezie Ogbuji: though i don't think the alternative should require RDFa but be one where we *dont* do con neg but encourage RDFa

14:36:07 <LeeF> zakim, who's on the phone?

Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, who's on the phone?

14:36:07 <Zakim> On the phone I see AndyS, LeeF, kasei, SimonS, AlexPassant, Garlik, bglimm (muted), ivanh, AxelPolleres, EricP, pgearon, Chimezie_Ogbuji, +1.937.775.aaee, [IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see AndyS, LeeF, kasei, SimonS, AlexPassant, Garlik, bglimm (muted), ivanh, AxelPolleres, EricP, pgearon, Chimezie_Ogbuji, +1.937.775.aaee, [IPcaller]

14:36:10 <Zakim> Garlik has LukeWM, SteveH

Zakim IRC Bot: Garlik has LukeWM, SteveH

14:36:19 <LeeF> zakim, who's speaking?

Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, who's speaking?

14:36:29 <Zakim> LeeF, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: AndyS (9%), LeeF (14%), ivanh (59%)

Zakim IRC Bot: LeeF, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: AndyS (9%), LeeF (14%), ivanh (59%)

14:37:22 <AlexPassant> ... the resource = the service description

... the resource = the service description

14:37:29 <AxelPolleres> Would that be the Option which is now being discussed? "RDFa+HTML or RDF/XML at the �service endpoint� URL are both valid ways to serve the service description"�?

Axel Polleres: Would that be the Option which is now being discussed? "RDFa+HTML or RDF/XML at the �service endpoint� URL are both valid ways to serve the service description"�?

14:38:03 <chimezie> I think ivanh is saying that unless the RDFa uses the endpoint URI explicitely, the issue of what we are identifying doesn't come up

Chimezie Ogbuji: I think ivanh is saying that unless the RDFa uses the endpoint URI explicitely, the issue of what we are identifying doesn't come up

14:38:16 <LeeF> zakim, aaee is Prateek

Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, aaee is Prateek

14:38:17 <Zakim> +Prateek; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Prateek; got it

14:38:19 <LeeF> zakim, IPCaller is Orri

Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, IPCaller is Orri

14:38:19 <Zakim> +Orri; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Orri; got it

14:38:31 <LeeF> q?

Lee Feigenbaum: q?

14:38:37 <SteveH> can I talk before the poll

Steve Harris: can I talk before the poll

14:38:38 <SteveH> ?

Steve Harris: ?

14:38:59 <LeeF> ack SteveH

Lee Feigenbaum: ack SteveH

14:38:59 <Zakim> SteveH, you wanted to talk about reverse proxies

Zakim IRC Bot: SteveH, you wanted to talk about reverse proxies

14:39:00 <AlexPassant> LeeF: strawpoll on option: SD served via conneg w/ pure RDF + RDFa in XHTML

Lee Feigenbaum: strawpoll on option: SD served via conneg w/ pure RDF + RDFa in XHTML

14:39:16 <AlexPassant> SteveH: reverse proxies become very common

Steve Harris: reverse proxies become very common

14:39:22 <AlexPassant> ... esp w/ webservices, etc.

... esp w/ webservices, etc.

14:39:39 <AlexPassant> ... problem is that the SPARQL endpoint cannot get the URL it is called from

... problem is that the SPARQL endpoint cannot get the URL it is called from

14:39:46 <ivanh> zakim, drop me

Ivan Herman: zakim, drop me

14:39:46 <Zakim> ivanh is being disconnected

Zakim IRC Bot: ivanh is being disconnected

14:39:48 <Zakim> -ivanh

Zakim IRC Bot: -ivanh

14:39:53 <AlexPassant> ... unambiguously pointing back to the client

... unambiguously pointing back to the client

14:39:55 <ivanh> zakim, dial ivanh-voip

Ivan Herman: zakim, dial ivanh-voip

14:39:55 <Zakim> ok, ivanh; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivanh; the call is being made

14:39:57 <Zakim> +ivanh

Zakim IRC Bot: +ivanh

14:40:45 <AxelPolleres> q+ to ask steveh whether this isn't an orthogonal issue? remember we discussed that the discription itself can use a bnode for the endpoint.

Axel Polleres: q+ to ask steveh whether this isn't an orthogonal issue? remember we discussed that the discription itself can use a bnode for the endpoint.

14:40:54 <AlexPassant> ericP: any way to talk about the URI even with the proxy

Eric Prud'hommeaux: any way to talk about the URI even with the proxy

14:41:03 <AxelPolleres> ack me

Axel Polleres: ack me

14:41:03 <Zakim> AxelPolleres, you wanted to ask steveh whether this isn't an orthogonal issue? remember we discussed that the discription itself can use a bnode for the endpoint.

Zakim IRC Bot: AxelPolleres, you wanted to ask steveh whether this isn't an orthogonal issue? remember we discussed that the discription itself can use a bnode for the endpoint.

14:41:05 <AndyS> Return a bnode, not <foo> (semi :-)

Andy Seaborne: Return a bnode, not <foo> (semi :-)

14:41:17 <AlexPassant> AxelPolleres: orthogonal issue ?

Axel Polleres: orthogonal issue ?

14:41:27 <SteveH> I can have a proxy URI which is <http://foo.com/bar> where the endpoint is <http://bar.com/baz>

Steve Harris: I can have a proxy URI which is <http://foo.com/bar> where the endpoint is <http://bar.com/baz>

14:41:35 <AlexPassant> ... if we get the URI we get the description ?

... if we get the URI we get the description ?

14:41:46 <AlexPassant> ... discussions on the ML if the description itself whould be on a blank node

... discussions on the ML if the description itself whould be on a blank node

14:42:22 <chimezie> I can see the general confusion with identifying an endpoint behind a rev proxy, but i think empty URI ref handles it (as well a s con neg) but as Axel  said , it is orthogonal, because the descriptions don't have to reference the endpoint

Chimezie Ogbuji: I can see the general confusion with identifying an endpoint behind a rev proxy, but i think empty URI ref handles it (as well a s con neg) but as Axel said , it is orthogonal, because the descriptions don't have to reference the endpoint

14:43:31 <AlexPassant> SteveH: nothing suggest you may have a / at the end

Steve Harris: nothing suggest you may have a / at the end

14:43:50 <AxelPolleres> chime, the description *can* have a reference to the endpoint, but then rather by an attribute denoting the "official" endpoint URL, I'd say e.g. [a endpoint; endpointURL <http://endpointURL> ] .

Axel Polleres: chime, the description *can* have a reference to the endpoint, but then rather by an attribute denoting the "official" endpoint URL, I'd say e.g. [a endpoint; endpointURL <http://endpointURL> ] .

14:43:50 <kasei> how is <> different in this respect from <?serviceDescription> ?

Gregory Williams: how is <> different in this respect from <?serviceDescription> ?

14:43:58 <AlexPassant> LeeF: SD doesn't need to refer to the service with that URI ?

Lee Feigenbaum: SD doesn't need to refer to the service with that URI ?

14:44:07 <AlexPassant> SteveH: depends on the exact defintion of the SD

Steve Harris: depends on the exact defintion of the SD

14:44:14 <AlexPassant> ... able to talk about the endpoint

... able to talk about the endpoint

14:44:28 <AlexPassant> ... e.g. fetch the service description: needs to know what we're talking about

... e.g. fetch the service description: needs to know what we're talking about

14:44:56 <LeeF> q?

Lee Feigenbaum: q?

14:45:11 <SteveH> base <http://foo.com/bar> + <?foo> gives <http://foo.com/?foo>

Steve Harris: base <http://foo.com/bar> + <?foo> gives <http://foo.com/?foo>

14:45:30 <SteveH> kasei, ^^

Steve Harris: kasei, ^^

14:45:31 <LeeF> option 7': conneg + option to return RDFa for service descriptin in hTML

Lee Feigenbaum: option 7': conneg + option to return RDFa for service descriptin in hTML

14:45:39 <SteveH> +1

Steve Harris: +1

14:45:42 <kasei> +1

Gregory Williams: +1

14:45:50 <bglimm> 0

Birte Glimm: 0

14:45:51 <LeeF> 0

Lee Feigenbaum: 0

14:45:51 <ericP> -1

Eric Prud'hommeaux: -1

14:45:52 <LukeWM> +1

Luke Wilson-Mawer: +1

14:45:54 <AlexPassant> +1

+1

14:45:55 <chimezie> +1

Chimezie Ogbuji: +1

14:45:56 <pgearon> -1

Paula Gearon: -1

14:45:56 <ivanh> 0

Ivan Herman: 0

14:45:59 <SimonS> +1

Simon Schenk: +1

14:46:02 <AxelPolleres> +1

Axel Polleres: +1

14:46:04 <AndyS> 0

Andy Seaborne: 0

14:46:31 <Prateek> 0

Prateek Jain: 0

14:47:21 <chimezie> RDFa, doesn't require use of accept headers

Chimezie Ogbuji: RDFa, doesn't require use of accept headers

14:47:53 <kasei> q+

Gregory Williams: q+

14:47:58 <SteveH> AlexPassant, you need to implement proper conneg to implement the sparql results spec + json anyway, and many people do that

Steve Harris: AlexPassant, you need to implement proper conneg to implement the sparql results spec + json anyway, and many people do that

14:48:36 <AlexPassant> SteveH: I mean *real* proper conneg (see previous thread on the LOD mailing lists, really a pain to get it clean)

Steve Harris: I mean *real* proper conneg (see previous thread on the LOD mailing lists, really a pain to get it clean)

14:49:07 <LeeF> ack kasei

Lee Feigenbaum: ack kasei

14:49:41 <SteveH> +1 to kasei

Steve Harris: +1 to kasei

14:49:41 <LukeWM> q+

Luke Wilson-Mawer: q+

14:49:57 <AlexPassant> kasei: query form in the HTML is a different issue

Gregory Williams: query form in the HTML is a different issue

14:50:09 <AlexPassant> ericP: pb is that we can have 2 descriptions of the same resource

Eric Prud'hommeaux: pb is that we can have 2 descriptions of the same resource

14:50:24 <AlexPassant> kasei: pushing for the HTML form or for the service description ?

Gregory Williams: pushing for the HTML form or for the service description ?

14:50:24 <LukeWM> ack me

Luke Wilson-Mawer: ack me

14:50:27 <LeeF> ack LukeWM

Lee Feigenbaum: ack LukeWM

14:51:25 <AlexPassant> LeeF: option 8 - new protocol verb, e.g. endpoint?servicedesc

Lee Feigenbaum: option 8 - new protocol verb, e.g. endpoint?servicedesc

14:51:26 <LukeWM> AlexPassant, I think that kasei had already said it.

Luke Wilson-Mawer: AlexPassant, I think that kasei had already said it.

14:51:42 <LukeWM> LukeWM: can we just mandate that there is no query form.

Luke Wilson-Mawer: can we just mandate that there is no query form. [ Scribe Assist by Luke Wilson-Mawer ]

14:51:53 <AlexPassant> ... issue: nothing to refer to the URI if using reverse proxy

... issue: nothing to refer to the URI if using reverse proxy

14:52:29 <SteveH> q+

Steve Harris: q+

14:52:51 <LeeF> ack SteveH

Lee Feigenbaum: ack SteveH

14:54:09 <LeeF> . /sparql?serviceDescription

Lee Feigenbaum: . /sparql?serviceDescription

14:54:18 <SteveH> -0.5

Steve Harris: -0.5

14:54:19 <AlexPassant> +1

+1

14:54:21 <pgearon> +1

Paula Gearon: +1

14:54:21 <ericP> 0

Eric Prud'hommeaux: 0

14:54:23 <LukeWM> 0

Luke Wilson-Mawer: 0

14:54:24 <ivanh> -1

Ivan Herman: -1

14:54:25 <AndyS> +1

Andy Seaborne: +1

14:54:27 <AxelPolleres> 0

Axel Polleres: 0

14:54:28 <LeeF> '0

Lee Feigenbaum: '0

14:54:28 <kasei> 0

Gregory Williams: 0

14:54:29 <bglimm> 0

Birte Glimm: 0

14:54:30 <chimezie> 0

Chimezie Ogbuji: 0

14:54:32 <SimonS> 0

Simon Schenk: 0

14:55:33 <Prateek> 0

Prateek Jain: 0

14:55:42 <ivanh> my feeling is that if I want to use the query endpoint to query into the service description it seems to be a bit too convoluted to be worth it...

Ivan Herman: my feeling is that if I want to use the query endpoint to query into the service description it seems to be a bit too convoluted to be worth it...

14:55:54 <AlexPassant> LeeF: most support for conneg / RDFa: i.e. return SD at the URL of the endpoint

Lee Feigenbaum: most support for conneg / RDFa: i.e. return SD at the URL of the endpoint

14:56:06 <kasei> +1 to LeeF's characterization of option 7

Gregory Williams: +1 to LeeF's characterization of option 7

14:56:11 <SteveH> +1

Steve Harris: +1

14:56:17 <SteveH> we dont need to mention conneg

Steve Harris: we dont need to mention conneg

14:56:33 <AndyS> RDFa is a mention of best practice?  Did I hear right?

Andy Seaborne: RDFa is a mention of best practice? Did I hear right?

14:57:03 <kasei> and/or GRDDL or just serving plain RDF...

Gregory Williams: and/or GRDDL or just serving plain RDF...

14:57:04 <AlexPassant> ... debate on recipes , which ones do we want to include

... debate on recipes , which ones do we want to include

14:57:05 <SteveH> ...arguably an HTML form is the way you describe the endpoint access method in HTML

Steve Harris: ...arguably an HTML form is the way you describe the endpoint access method in HTML

14:57:10 <ivanh> I do think the document should mandate RDFa

Ivan Herman: I do think the document should mandate RDFa

14:57:17 <AlexPassant> ... editorial latitude

... editorial latitude

14:57:22 <AndyS> +1 to plain RDF as 1st class choice.

Andy Seaborne: +1 to plain RDF as 1st class choice.

14:57:29 <AlexPassant> +1 for Lees proposal and mention of RDFa in the doc

+1 for Lees proposal and mention of RDFa in the doc

14:57:56 <chimezie> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/selfDescribingDocuments.html#RDFSection

Chimezie Ogbuji: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/selfDescribingDocuments.html#RDFSection

14:58:08 <AlexPassant> topic: AOB

5. AOB

14:58:16 <AxelPolleres> ISSUE-28

Axel Polleres: ISSUE-28

14:58:17 <AlexPassant> SimonS: issue with update + entailment

Simon Schenk: issue with update + entailment

14:58:20 <AlexPassant> ... issue 28

... ISSUE-28

14:58:53 <SteveH> ericP, sure

Steve Harris: ericP, sure

14:59:13 <AlexPassant> ... e-mnail to be sent in the week

... e-mnail to be sent in the week

14:59:15 <AxelPolleres> Can you paste the URI?

Axel Polleres: Can you paste the URI?

14:59:19 <ivanh> yep, issues 28 and 40 are the same...

Ivan Herman: yep, issues 28 and 40 are the same...

14:59:50 <Zakim> -Chimezie_Ogbuji

Zakim IRC Bot: -Chimezie_Ogbuji

14:59:57 <AlexPassant> LeeF: please update the F2F and SELECT query syntax comments are welcome on the mailing list

Lee Feigenbaum: please update the F2F and SELECT query syntax comments are welcome on the mailing list

14:59:59 <ivanh> better more than none:-)

Ivan Herman: better more than none:-)

15:00:01 <Zakim> -Orri

Zakim IRC Bot: -Orri

15:00:02 <ivanh> zakim, drop me

Ivan Herman: zakim, drop me

15:00:02 <Zakim> ivanh is being disconnected

Zakim IRC Bot: ivanh is being disconnected

15:00:04 <Zakim> -ivanh

Zakim IRC Bot: -ivanh

15:00:04 <Zakim> -LeeF

Zakim IRC Bot: -LeeF

15:00:05 <LukeWM> bye

Luke Wilson-Mawer: bye

15:00:10 <AlexPassant> bye

bye

15:00:13 <bglimm> bye

Birte Glimm: bye

15:00:14 <Zakim> -Prateek

Zakim IRC Bot: -Prateek

15:00:17 <Zakim> -bglimm

Zakim IRC Bot: -bglimm

15:00:19 <Zakim> -AxelPolleres

Zakim IRC Bot: -AxelPolleres

15:00:20 <SimonS> Paul, could you stay for a second?

Simon Schenk: Paul, could you stay for a second?

15:00:32 <LeeF> AlexPassant, thanks for scribing

Lee Feigenbaum: AlexPassant, thanks for scribing

15:00:35 <LukeWM> ericP, do you mind if I listen in to this discussion?

Luke Wilson-Mawer: ericP, do you mind if I listen in to this discussion?

15:00:40 <ericP> not at all

Eric Prud'hommeaux: not at all

15:00:41 <Zakim> -AlexPassant

Zakim IRC Bot: -AlexPassant

15:00:45 <ericP> please

Eric Prud'hommeaux: please

15:00:45 <LukeWM> cool

Luke Wilson-Mawer: cool

15:04:43 <Zakim> -SimonS

Zakim IRC Bot: -SimonS

15:10:21 <kasei> (still listening in) it's not the case that the endpoint necessarily dereferences a FROM

(No events recorded for 5 minutes)

Gregory Williams: (still listening in) it's not the case that the endpoint necessarily dereferences a FROM

15:11:07 <LeeF> AlexPassant, can you take a shot at the minutes as per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2009AprJun/0406.html ?

Lee Feigenbaum: AlexPassant, can you take a shot at the minutes as per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2009AprJun/0406.html ?

15:17:42 <Zakim> -AndyS

(No events recorded for 6 minutes)

Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS



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