<LeeF> present: bijan, lee, eric, axel, alex, KjetilK, andy, steve, LukeWM, prateek, iv_an_ru, john-l, SimonS, kasei, pgearon
13:57:04 <LeeF> trackbot, start meeting
Lee Feigenbaum: trackbot, start meeting ←
13:57:06 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world ←
13:57:08 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 77277
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 77277 ←
13:57:08 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes ←
13:57:09 <trackbot> Meeting: SPARQL Working Group Teleconference
13:57:09 <trackbot> Date: 19 May 2009
Trackbot IRC Bot: Date: 19 May 2009 ←
14:03:55 <bijan> 41#
(No events recorded for 6 minutes)
Bijan Parsia: 41# ←
14:04:08 <bijan> http://www.w3.org/2002/01/UsingZakim
Bijan Parsia: http://www.w3.org/2002/01/UsingZakim ←
<LeeF> chair: LeeF
<LeeF> agenda: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2009-05-19
<LeeF> scribenick: bijan
(Scribe set to Bijan Parsia)
14:06:35 <LeeF> topic: admin
14:06:42 <LeeF> PROPOSED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-04-28
PROPOSED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-04-28 ←
14:07:03 <AxelPolleres> +1
Axel Polleres: +1 ←
14:07:13 <LeeF> RESOLVED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-04-28
RESOLVED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-04-28 ←
14:07:13 <bijan> bijan has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2009-05-19
bijan has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2009-05-19 ←
14:07:37 <bijan> AndyS: Pity that the new minutes don't group actions
Andy Seaborne: Pity that the new minutes don't group actions ←
14:07:44 <bijan> LeeF: Pester Sanrdo.
Lee Feigenbaum: Pester Sanrdo. ←
14:08:18 <bijan> LeeF: Meeting next week, same bat time, same bat channel, chime as scribe
Lee Feigenbaum: Meeting next week, same bat time, same bat channel, chime as scribe ←
14:08:25 <bijan> Topic: Liasons
14:08:34 <bijan> LeeF: Anything we need to know?
Lee Feigenbaum: Anything we need to know? ←
14:08:36 <bijan> Crickets.
Crickets. ←
14:08:48 <AxelPolleres> q+ on rdf-text
Axel Polleres: q+ on rdf-text ←
14:08:51 <bijan> ericP: Lots of hot rdf:text action
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Lots of hot rdf:text action ←
14:08:51 <AlexPassant> q+ to ask about Social Web XG liaison
Alexandre Passant: q+ to ask about Social Web XG liaison ←
14:08:54 <LeeF> q- aadd
Lee Feigenbaum: q- aadd ←
14:09:02 <LeeF> q- +1.312.863.aadd
Lee Feigenbaum: q- +1.312.863.aadd ←
14:09:42 <bijan> ...What I can gather is that people are ok with inferred rdf:text being invisible to sparql query. But AndyS gave 3 proposals and I was in favor of 1. AndyS could you list them?
...What I can gather is that people are ok with inferred rdf:text being invisible to sparql query. But AndyS gave 3 proposals and I was in favor of 1. AndyS could you list them? ←
14:09:43 <LeeF> q-i AxelPolleres
Lee Feigenbaum: q-i AxelPolleres ←
14:09:52 <bijan> AndyS: Now? Is it agenda sane?
Andy Seaborne: Now? Is it agenda sane? ←
14:10:13 <bijan> AxelPolleres: We are due to set up a telecon with all the related parties on it. Soon.
Axel Polleres: We are due to set up a telecon with all the related parties on it. Soon. ←
14:10:34 <bijan> LeeF: Let's defer to the looped people until we have a proposed resolution.
Lee Feigenbaum: Let's defer to the looped people until we have a proposed resolution. ←
14:10:46 <bijan> ...Any non-looped callers want to talk about it?
...Any non-looped callers want to talk about it? ←
14:10:50 <bijan> <crickets>
<crickets> ←
14:10:55 <SteveH> not sure if I'm in the loop or not... I was
Steve Harris: not sure if I'm in the loop or not... I was ←
14:10:59 <LeeF> ack AlexPassant
Lee Feigenbaum: ack AlexPassant ←
14:10:59 <Zakim> AlexPassant, you wanted to ask about Social Web XG liaison
Zakim IRC Bot: AlexPassant, you wanted to ask about Social Web XG liaison ←
14:11:21 <bijan> AlexPassant: There's a new XG on Social Web and I'd like to be the liaison for that
Alexandre Passant: There's a new XG on Social Web and I'd like to be the liaison for that ←
14:11:28 <bijan> LeeF: Superfantastic!
Lee Feigenbaum: Superfantastic! ←
14:11:30 <AndyS> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-text/2009AprJun/0083.html
Andy Seaborne: -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-text/2009AprJun/0083.html ←
14:11:45 <bijan> Topic: F2F1 recap
14:11:52 <AlexPassant> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/
Alexandre Passant: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/ ←
14:11:52 <LeeF> -> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-05-06
Lee Feigenbaum: -> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-05-06 ←
14:11:56 <LeeF> -> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-05-07
Lee Feigenbaum: -> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-05-07 ←
14:12:18 <LeeF> -> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/FeatureProposal
Lee Feigenbaum: -> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/FeatureProposal ←
14:12:20 <bijan> LeeF: The minutes are about ready, see links.
Lee Feigenbaum: The minutes are about ready, see links. ←
14:13:09 <bijan> ...we've decided to work on some things and we decided on a naming scheme, i.e., SPARQL/*, e.g., SPARQL/Query SPARQL/Update
...we've decided to work on some things and we decided on a naming scheme, i.e., SPARQL/*, e.g., SPARQL/Query SPARQL/Update ←
14:13:38 <bijan> ...Sublanguages are independently versions, thus DAWG SPARQL/Query is 1.0 and our SPARQL/Query is 1.1
...Sublanguages are independently versions, thus DAWG SPARQL/Query is 1.0 and our SPARQL/Query is 1.1 ←
14:13:50 <bijan> ...Something about subselect or something
...Something about subselect or something ←
14:14:20 <bijan> ...Following AndyS's suggestion we'll have a wiki design template for all sorts of spec development.
...Following AndyS's suggestion we'll have a wiki design template for all sorts of spec development. ←
14:14:22 <bijan> ...Questions?
...Questions? ←
14:14:37 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Template:DesignQL
Axel Polleres: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Template:DesignQL ←
14:15:01 <AxelPolleres> Example:
Axel Polleres: Example: ←
14:15:02 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Design:SubSelect
Axel Polleres: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Design:SubSelect ←
14:15:09 <bijan> LeeF: Let's go over status of Actions both to close ones that are read and to shame people who are slackin'
Lee Feigenbaum: Let's go over status of Actions both to close ones that are read and to shame people who are slackin' ←
14:15:34 <iv_an_ru> :( I'm late with sub-SELECT samples :(
Ivan Mikhailov: :( I'm late with sub-SELECT samples :( ←
14:15:59 <bijan> ...Right now the tracker is set up so anyone can close actions (not axioms). But the chairs would prefer that people would not *close* actions when done but set them to "pending review" so the chairs have an easier time with bookkeeping.
...Right now the tracker is set up so anyone can close actions (not axioms). But the chairs would prefer that people would not *close* actions when done but set them to "pending review" so the chairs have an easier time with bookkeeping. ←
14:16:13 <LeeF> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/actions/open
Lee Feigenbaum: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/actions/open ←
14:16:19 <LeeF> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/actions/pendingreview
Lee Feigenbaum: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/actions/pendingreview ←
14:17:08 <SteveH> q+ to say about action URI
Steve Harris: q+ to say about action URI ←
14:17:14 <bijan> LeeF: Also, Bijan explained that tracker will track email about an action or issue if you include anywhere in an email (ISSUE|ACTION):d+ where :d+ is the relevant action/issue number
Lee Feigenbaum: Also, Bijan explained that tracker will track email about an action or issue if you include anywhere in an email (ISSUE|ACTION):d+ where :d+ is the relevant action/issue number ←
14:17:23 <bijan> ...so please do this!
...so please do this! ←
14:17:24 <LeeF> ack SteveH
Lee Feigenbaum: ack SteveH ←
14:17:24 <Zakim> SteveH, you wanted to say about action URI
Zakim IRC Bot: SteveH, you wanted to say about action URI ←
14:17:43 <SteveH> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/actions/13
Steve Harris: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/actions/13 ←
14:17:47 <bijan> SteveH: It also picks up uris of the action/issue
Steve Harris: It also picks up uris of the action/issue ←
14:18:07 <bijan> LeeF: Cool.
Lee Feigenbaum: Cool. ←
14:18:12 <bijan> q+ to pimp it
q+ to pimp it ←
14:18:20 <LeeF> ack bijan
Lee Feigenbaum: ack bijan ←
14:18:20 <Zakim> bijan, you wanted to pimp it
Zakim IRC Bot: bijan, you wanted to pimp it ←
14:18:31 <LeeF> bijan: OWL experience is that this is super duper useful
Bijan Parsia: OWL experience is that this is super duper useful [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ] ←
14:18:42 <Zakim> -EricP
Zakim IRC Bot: -EricP ←
14:19:01 <bijan> Topic: Pending review actions
14:19:26 <Zakim> +EricP
Zakim IRC Bot: +EricP ←
14:19:36 <bijan> LeeF: ACTION-14 (bijan). It's done.
Lee Feigenbaum: ACTION-14 (bijan). It's done. ←
14:19:43 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-14
Lee Feigenbaum: trackbot, close ACTION-14 ←
14:19:43 <trackbot> ACTION-14 Send mail about issues in specifying OWL in SPARQL semantics closed
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-14 Send mail about issues in specifying OWL in SPARQL semantics closed ←
14:20:26 <bijan> LeeF: ACTION-18 (Axel). We'll talk about this later in the call. It's good.
Lee Feigenbaum: ACTION-18 (Axel). We'll talk about this later in the call. It's good. ←
14:20:39 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-18
Lee Feigenbaum: trackbot, close ACTION-18 ←
14:20:39 <trackbot> ACTION-18 Write up a use case on !ASK in FILTERS to emulate negation closed
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-18 Write up a use case on !ASK in FILTERS to emulate negation closed ←
14:21:13 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-20
Lee Feigenbaum: trackbot, close ACTION-20 ←
14:21:13 <trackbot> ACTION-20 Send CONSTRUCT in FROM clause use case to mailing list re: ISSUE-7 closed
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-20 Send CONSTRUCT in FROM clause use case to mailing list re: ISSUE-7 closed ←
14:21:43 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-24
Lee Feigenbaum: trackbot, close ACTION-24 ←
14:21:43 <trackbot> ACTION-24 Explain potential design regarding aggregate functions with multiple answers for mixed datatypes re ISSUE-16 closed
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-24 Explain potential design regarding aggregate functions with multiple answers for mixed datatypes re ISSUE-16 closed ←
14:22:22 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-25
Lee Feigenbaum: trackbot, close ACTION-25 ←
14:22:22 <trackbot> ACTION-25 Setup wiki template and feature stub pages based on slide 11 of http://jena.hpl.hp.com/~afs/SPARQL-F2F1-AFS.pdf closed
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-25 Setup wiki template and feature stub pages based on slide 11 of http://jena.hpl.hp.com/~afs/SPARQL-F2F1-AFS.pdf closed ←
14:22:24 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-26
Lee Feigenbaum: trackbot, close ACTION-26 ←
14:22:24 <trackbot> ACTION-26 Stub out an initial example of a filled in feature template pending completion of ACTION-25 closed
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-26 Stub out an initial example of a filled in feature template pending completion of ACTION-25 closed ←
14:23:02 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-27
Lee Feigenbaum: trackbot, close ACTION-27 ←
14:23:02 <trackbot> ACTION-27 Ask in DERI about whether RDF Forms/pushback uses WHERE in updates closed
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-27 Ask in DERI about whether RDF Forms/pushback uses WHERE in updates closed ←
14:23:21 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-30
Lee Feigenbaum: trackbot, close ACTION-30 ←
14:23:21 <trackbot> ACTION-30 Provide 3 uses cases on wiki closed
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-30 Provide 3 uses cases on wiki closed ←
14:23:53 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-13
Lee Feigenbaum: trackbot, close ACTION-13 ←
14:23:53 <trackbot> ACTION-13 Write up how/whether assignment is subsumed by projected expressions + subqueries (tentative, with LukeWM) closed
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-13 Write up how/whether assignment is subsumed by projected expressions + subqueries (tentative, with LukeWM) closed ←
14:24:13 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-29
Lee Feigenbaum: trackbot, close ACTION-29 ←
14:24:13 <trackbot> ACTION-29 Provide FOAF update use case on wiki closed
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-29 Provide FOAF update use case on wiki closed ←
14:25:29 <bijan> Topic: Review Template:DesignQL
14:25:32 <bijan> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Template:DesignQL
http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Template:DesignQL ←
14:26:16 <bijan> LeeF: We can use this to put competing designs and even language side by side. AndyS?
Lee Feigenbaum: We can use this to put competing designs and even language side by side. AndyS? ←
14:27:13 <bijan> AndyS: This is a bit tuned for the query language. Design early and often for concrete direction. <<Gives a blow by blow over template>>
Andy Seaborne: This is a bit tuned for the query language. Design early and often for concrete direction. <<Gives a blow by blow over template>> ←
14:28:03 <AndyS> "design early - design often"
Andy Seaborne: "design early - design often" ←
14:28:33 <bijan> LeeF: And people should feel free to add bits to arbitrary sections.
Lee Feigenbaum: And people should feel free to add bits to arbitrary sections. ←
14:28:54 <LeeF> -> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Design:SubSelect
Lee Feigenbaum: -> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Design:SubSelect ←
14:29:11 <bijan> LeeF: Check out AndyS's first example for SubSelect
Lee Feigenbaum: Check out AndyS's first example for SubSelect ←
14:29:46 <bijan> Topic: F&R document update?
14:30:04 <AlexPassant> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/features/
Alexandre Passant: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/features/ ←
14:30:30 <bijan> LeeF: Who's the audience? Potential implementors? WG wannabees? Users? AC reps?
Lee Feigenbaum: Who's the audience? Potential implementors? WG wannabees? Users? AC reps? ←
14:30:50 <bijan> ...My answer is that this should target implementors and WG wannabees.
...My answer is that this should target implementors and WG wannabees. ←
14:31:25 <AndyS> +1 to keeping syntax up-to-date -- it caused people some confusion last time when we left old syntax around.
Andy Seaborne: +1 to keeping syntax up-to-date -- it caused people some confusion last time when we left old syntax around. ←
14:31:34 <bijan> ...I think we should maintain the syntax in the document because these documents are like diamonds...forever. So we can avoid people who stumble on the F&R won't be confused.
...I think we should maintain the syntax in the document because these documents are like diamonds...forever. So we can avoid people who stumble on the F&R won't be confused. ←
14:31:35 <iv_an_ru> +1
Ivan Mikhailov: +1 ←
14:31:48 <SteveH> I suspect the F&R should avoid syntax whereever possible
Steve Harris: I suspect the F&R should avoid syntax whereever possible ←
14:31:59 <bijan> ...However, I don't intend the N&F isn't a primer. So, concise, technical document.
...However, I don't intend the N&F isn't a primer. So, concise, technical document. ←
14:32:05 <AlexPassant> +1 for updating syntax when the WG agrees on it
Alexandre Passant: +1 for updating syntax when the WG agrees on it ←
14:32:12 <KjetilK> Zakim, unmute me
Kjetil Kjernsmo: Zakim, unmute me ←
14:32:15 <SteveH> q+
Steve Harris: q+ ←
14:32:16 <Zakim> KjetilK should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: KjetilK should no longer be muted ←
14:32:51 <bijan> kjetil: My primary concern is how it'll be seen by people outside the SPARQL community. Current stuff is a bit terse.
Kjetil Kjernsmo: My primary concern is how it'll be seen by people outside the SPARQL community. Current stuff is a bit terse. ←
14:33:19 <bijan> LeeF: I sorta agree. I don't know what sort of review to expect. I think it's ok to presume familiarity with SPARQL
Lee Feigenbaum: I sorta agree. I don't know what sort of review to expect. I think it's ok to presume familiarity with SPARQL ←
14:33:22 <bijan> q+
q+ ←
14:33:26 <LeeF> ack SteveH
Lee Feigenbaum: ack SteveH ←
14:34:00 <bijan> SteveH: I think we should avoid putting in speculative syntax whenever possible. Showing what can't be done is ok, but people *will* implement any scrap of anything no matter what the disclaimers.
Steve Harris: I think we should avoid putting in speculative syntax whenever possible. Showing what can't be done is ok, but people *will* implement any scrap of anything no matter what the disclaimers. ←
14:34:13 <bijan> LeeF: What about linking out to existing implementations.
Lee Feigenbaum: What about linking out to existing implementations. ←
14:34:27 <bijan> SteveH: That should be ok. But w3.org makes people crazy.
Steve Harris: That should be ok. But w3.org makes people crazy. ←
14:34:31 <LeeF> ack bijan
Lee Feigenbaum: ack bijan ←
14:34:38 <KjetilK> q+
Kjetil Kjernsmo: q+ ←
14:34:56 <LeeF> bijan: recommend narrow scope, don't worry about general audience (which would cause a lot of extra work)
Bijan Parsia: recommend narrow scope, don't worry about general audience (which would cause a lot of extra work) [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ] ←
14:35:02 <SteveH> +1 to not worrying about general audience, meant to say that too
Steve Harris: +1 to not worrying about general audience, meant to say that too ←
14:35:11 <LeeF> ack KjetilK
Lee Feigenbaum: ack KjetilK ←
14:35:27 <bijan> KJetilK: I'm worried that people will come and say it's not well motivated.
Kjetil Kjernsmo: I'm worried that people will come and say it's not well motivated. ←
14:35:31 <bijan> I don't think it's a worry.
I don't think it's a worry. ←
14:35:59 <bijan> LeeF: I'm not too worried about it. I expect most feedback from the implementors community.
Lee Feigenbaum: I'm not too worried about it. I expect most feedback from the implementors community. ←
14:36:19 <bijan> Also, if someone does have a question, we can deal with it as it arises.
Also, if someone does have a question, we can deal with it as it arises. ←
14:36:30 <KjetilK> Zakim, mute me
Kjetil Kjernsmo: Zakim, mute me ←
14:36:30 <Zakim> KjetilK should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: KjetilK should now be muted ←
14:36:37 <bijan> Topic: Feature overview: Feature:Negation
14:36:49 <bijan> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:Negation
http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:Negation ←
14:37:26 <bijan> LeeF: So, let's follow the F2F pattern. First get a sense of existing implementions. Fine design issues and start workign on it.
Lee Feigenbaum: So, let's follow the F2F pattern. First get a sense of existing implementions. Fine design issues and start workign on it. ←
14:37:59 <bijan> ...Start with overview. Take it to email. Move things back to telecon on a "obvious need" basis.
...Start with overview. Take it to email. Move things back to telecon on a "obvious need" basis. ←
14:38:54 <bijan> ...Kicking off negation discussion. You can do just about all the use cases in S/Q 1.0 using optional and notbound. Which is so ugly I'd rather watch videos of parasitic wasps emerging from their catapiller hosts.
...Kicking off negation discussion. You can do just about all the use cases in S/Q 1.0 using optional and notbound. Which is so ugly I'd rather watch videos of parasitic wasps emerging from their catapiller hosts. ←
14:39:18 <bijan> ...There are several design out there, but I'd like to know what people do now.
...There are several design out there, but I'd like to know what people do now. ←
14:39:35 <LeeF> zakim, who's here?
Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, who's here? ←
14:39:35 <Zakim> On the phone I see john-l, AxelPolleres, AndyS, kasei (muted), pgearon, SimonS, KjetilK (muted), bijan, AlexPassant, Lee_Feigenbaum, [Garlik], prateek, EricP
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see john-l, AxelPolleres, AndyS, kasei (muted), pgearon, SimonS, KjetilK (muted), bijan, AlexPassant, Lee_Feigenbaum, [Garlik], prateek, EricP ←
14:39:37 <bijan> ...AndyS, do you have an implementation of simpler negation?
...AndyS, do you have an implementation of simpler negation? ←
14:39:39 <Zakim> [Garlik] has SteveH, LukeWM
Zakim IRC Bot: [Garlik] has SteveH, LukeWM ←
14:39:40 <Zakim> On IRC I see Prateek, SteveH, LukeWM, pgearon, Zakim, SimonS, RRSAgent, AxelPolleres, john-l, bijan, AndyS, karl, AndyS_, LeeF, trackbot, iv_an_ru, kasei, kjetil, AlexPassant,
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see Prateek, SteveH, LukeWM, pgearon, Zakim, SimonS, RRSAgent, AxelPolleres, john-l, bijan, AndyS, karl, AndyS_, LeeF, trackbot, iv_an_ru, kasei, kjetil, AlexPassant, ←
14:39:43 <Zakim> ... KjetilK, ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: ... KjetilK, ericP ←
14:39:48 <kasei> Zakim, unmute me
Gregory Williams: Zakim, unmute me ←
14:39:48 <Zakim> kasei should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: kasei should no longer be muted ←
14:39:53 <bijan> AndyS: Nothing in release version. Most of my thoughts go back to UNSAID in DAWG.
Andy Seaborne: Nothing in release version. Most of my thoughts go back to UNSAID in DAWG. ←
14:40:07 <ericP> i implemented UNSAID in Algae2
Eric Prud'hommeaux: i implemented UNSAID in Algae2 ←
14:40:09 <ericP> it worked
Eric Prud'hommeaux: it worked ←
14:40:12 <ericP> .
14:40:38 <bijan> kasei: We do UNSAID.
Gregory Williams: We do UNSAID. ←
14:40:52 <bijan> pgearon: we have a minus operator.
Paula Gearon: we have a minus operator. ←
14:40:53 <AlexPassant> no negation in ARC2/SPARQL+
Alexandre Passant: no negation in ARC2/SPARQL+ ←
14:40:58 <bijan> LeeF: Is that like UNSAID?
Lee Feigenbaum: Is that like UNSAID? ←
14:41:06 <bijan> pgearon: sorta
Paula Gearon: sorta ←
14:41:12 <AndyS> q+ to ask about MINUS
Andy Seaborne: q+ to ask about MINUS ←
14:41:26 <AxelPolleres> Sesame/SeRQL has MINUS
Axel Polleres: Sesame/SeRQL has MINUS ←
14:41:40 <LeeF> ack AndyS
Lee Feigenbaum: ack AndyS ←
14:41:40 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask about MINUS
Zakim IRC Bot: AndyS, you wanted to ask about MINUS ←
14:41:41 <AxelPolleres> SimonS: Sesame/SeRQL has MINUS
Simon Schenk: Sesame/SeRQL has MINUS [ Scribe Assist by Axel Polleres ] ←
14:42:03 <bijan> AndyS: Is your minus a set based (each side has to have the same shape) or not?
Andy Seaborne: Is your minus a set based (each side has to have the same shape) or not? ←
14:42:22 <bijan> pgearon: It's set based. It's sorta like an inner join. I have a posting that describes that it detail.
Paula Gearon: It's set based. It's sorta like an inner join. I have a posting that describes that it detail. ←
14:42:30 <bijan> AndyS: Please send the pointer?
Andy Seaborne: Please send the pointer? ←
14:42:37 <bijan> pgearon: I'm looking for it.
Paula Gearon: I'm looking for it. ←
14:42:59 <bijan> bijan: None of the owl ones do, to my knowledge.
Bijan Parsia: None of the owl ones do, to my knowledge. ←
14:43:08 <SimonS> q+ to summarize MINUS in SeRQL
Simon Schenk: q+ to summarize MINUS in SeRQL ←
14:43:16 <bijan> LeeF: because I'm a sadist, glitter forces you to do it the waspy way
Lee Feigenbaum: because I'm a sadist, glitter forces you to do it the waspy way ←
14:43:22 <bijan> SteveH: We don't do it.
Steve Harris: We don't do it. ←
14:43:46 <bijan> Prateek: We don't have it.
Prateek Jain: We don't have it. ←
14:43:56 <LeeF> iv_an_ru, what does Virtuoso do for negation?
Lee Feigenbaum: iv_an_ru, what does Virtuoso do for negation? ←
14:43:59 <bijan> LeeF: Anyone know what Virtuoso?
Lee Feigenbaum: Anyone know what Virtuoso? ←
14:44:05 <bijan> AndyS: The might have exists?
Andy Seaborne: The might have exists? ←
14:44:09 <pgearon> I wrote about my description of MINUS in a blog post 2004-10-05: http://gearon.blogspot.com/2004/10/owlsameas-majority-of-today-was-spent.html
Paula Gearon: I wrote about my description of MINUS in a blog post 2004-10-05: http://gearon.blogspot.com/2004/10/owlsameas-majority-of-today-was-spent.html ←
14:44:11 <AxelPolleres> we had some very prototypical implementation of ASK in FILTERs ind dlvhex (LP engine based SPARQL implementation)... not released.
Axel Polleres: we had some very prototypical implementation of ASK in FILTERs ind dlvhex (LP engine based SPARQL implementation)... not released. ←
14:44:20 <pgearon> (skip the first section on owl:sameAs)
Paula Gearon: (skip the first section on owl:sameAs) ←
14:44:21 <iv_an_ru> we have subqueries and ! operator, that's enough
Ivan Mikhailov: we have subqueries and ! operator, that's enough ←
14:44:28 <SimonS> http://www.openrdf.org/doc/sesame2/users/ch09.html#d0e2194
Simon Schenk: http://www.openrdf.org/doc/sesame2/users/ch09.html#d0e2194 ←
14:44:37 <iv_an_ru> We don't have MINUS or UNSAID
Ivan Mikhailov: We don't have MINUS or UNSAID ←
14:44:50 <bijan> SimonS: I checked the docs and found that minus is set based in Seqrl and exists which is Not ASK
Simon Schenk: I checked the docs and found that minus is set based in Seqrl and exists which is Not ASK ←
14:44:54 <iv_an_ru> We've never seen requests for them
Ivan Mikhailov: We've never seen requests for them ←
14:45:18 <bijan> SimonS: Minus is an operator that takes two queries and from the results of the first query remove the elements of the second query.
Simon Schenk: Minus is an operator that takes two queries and from the results of the first query remove the elements of the second query. ←
14:45:41 <bijan> ...EXISTS is NOT ASK filter
...EXISTS is NOT ASK filter ←
14:46:00 <pgearon> sounds like the two sets must bind the same variables, is that right?
Paula Gearon: sounds like the two sets must bind the same variables, is that right? ←
14:46:12 <bijan> LeeF: I presume a good deal of discussion will revolve around which sort, but we're going to defer.
Lee Feigenbaum: I presume a good deal of discussion will revolve around which sort, but we're going to defer. ←
14:46:24 <bijan> ...From what we've just heard and discussion on the list there are three designs:
...From what we've just heard and discussion on the list there are three designs: ←
14:46:40 <bijan> ...1) Binary operator that acts on subqueries (SERQL Minus)
...1) Binary operator that acts on subqueries (SERQL Minus) ←
14:46:55 <bijan> ...2) Binary operator *in* a graph pattern (e.g., UNSAID)
...2) Binary operator *in* a graph pattern (e.g., UNSAID) ←
14:47:40 <bijan> ...3) Not exists approach (filter based). AndyS pointed out in email that it wouldn't be exactly the semantics of the compositional form. So maybe a different name
...3) Not exists approach (filter based). AndyS pointed out in email that it wouldn't be exactly the semantics of the compositional form. So maybe a different name ←
14:47:58 <bijan> LeeF: Does that design space seem right?
Lee Feigenbaum: Does that design space seem right? ←
14:48:08 <bijan> pgearon thinks the FILTER based approach is similar to a SQL left-outer-join
pgearon thinks the FILTER based approach is similar to a SQL left-outer-join ←
14:48:23 <bijan> LeeF: Silence is UNSAID assent
Lee Feigenbaum: Silence is UNSAID assent ←
14:48:34 <SteveH> I don't understand pgearon's point
Steve Harris: I don't understand pgearon's point ←
14:48:57 <bijan> ...We need to decide between these.
...We need to decide between these. ←
14:49:07 <AndyS> FILTER/EXISTS is very like SQL EXISTS.
Andy Seaborne: FILTER/EXISTS is very like SQL EXISTS. ←
14:49:34 <iv_an_ru> AndyS, the similarity is advantage ;)
Ivan Mikhailov: AndyS, the similarity is advantage ;) ←
14:49:37 <LeeF> ISSUE: Should negation be done via a binary operator on subqueries, a binary operator within graph patterns, or a filter+subquery?
ISSUE: Should negation be done via a binary operator on subqueries, a binary operator within graph patterns, or a filter+subquery? ←
14:49:37 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-29 - Should negation be done via a binary operator on subqueries, a binary operator within graph patterns, or a filter+subquery? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/29/edit .
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ISSUE-29 - Should negation be done via a binary operator on subqueries, a binary operator within graph patterns, or a filter+subquery? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/29/edit . ←
14:50:18 <bijan> LeeF: Get we get some voluteers for UNSAID and MINUS to talk designs on the mailing list.
Lee Feigenbaum: Get we get some voluteers for UNSAID and MINUS to talk designs on the mailing list. ←
14:50:19 <bijan> q+
q+ ←
14:50:23 <bijan> ericP: Plus contrasts
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Plus contrasts ←
14:50:29 <LeeF> q- SimonS
Lee Feigenbaum: q- SimonS ←
14:50:31 <SimonS> q-
Simon Schenk: q- ←
14:50:35 <bijan> q-
q- ←
14:50:42 <bijan> bijan: Email or design template
Bijan Parsia: Email or design template ←
14:50:46 <AxelPolleres> ISSUE-29 relates to ISSUE-5 (how again do I bring trackbot to link that?)
Axel Polleres: ISSUE-29 relates to ISSUE-5 (how again do I bring trackbot to link that?) ←
14:50:50 <bijan> AndyS: at first, email is better.
Andy Seaborne: at first, email is better. ←
14:52:06 <Zakim> -kasei
Zakim IRC Bot: -kasei ←
14:52:11 <bijan> LeeF: I want to make the barrier to entry very low. So if they can put it in the template, great.
Lee Feigenbaum: I want to make the barrier to entry very low. So if they can put it in the template, great. ←
14:52:19 <bijan> AndyS: Email is nice because it's push.
Andy Seaborne: Email is nice because it's push. ←
14:52:40 <bijan> ericP: I'd love to work on UNSAID with SimonS since he has both
Eric Prud'hommeaux: I'd love to work on UNSAID with SimonS since he has both ←
14:52:45 <LeeF> ACTION: ericP to work with SimonS on explaining and comparing UNSAID and MINUS
ACTION: ericP to work with SimonS on explaining and comparing UNSAID and MINUS ←
14:52:45 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - ericP
Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - ericP ←
14:52:52 <LeeF> ACTION: Eric to work with SimonS on explaining and comparing UNSAID and MINUS
ACTION: Eric to work with SimonS on explaining and comparing UNSAID and MINUS ←
14:52:52 <trackbot> Created ACTION-32 - Work with SimonS on explaining and comparing UNSAID and MINUS [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2009-05-26].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-32 - Work with SimonS on explaining and comparing UNSAID and MINUS [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2009-05-26]. ←
14:53:15 <Zakim> +??P5
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P5 ←
14:53:23 <kasei> Zakim, P5 is me
Gregory Williams: Zakim, P5 is me ←
14:53:23 <Zakim> sorry, kasei, I do not recognize a party named 'P5'
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, kasei, I do not recognize a party named 'P5' ←
14:53:25 <bijan> LeeF: pgearon and kasei if you want to chime in, please do in email
Lee Feigenbaum: pgearon and kasei if you want to chime in, please do in email ←
14:53:55 <KjetilK> Zakim, ??P5 is kasei
Kjetil Kjernsmo: Zakim, ??P5 is kasei ←
14:53:55 <Zakim> +kasei; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +kasei; got it ←
14:54:06 <kasei> thanks KjetilK
Gregory Williams: thanks KjetilK ←
14:54:18 <bijan> LeeF: Any other questions or discussions about negation? iv_an_ru said on irc that they've received no request for negation in graph patterns. So contrasting experience?
Lee Feigenbaum: Any other questions or discussions about negation? iv_an_ru said on irc that they've received no request for negation in graph patterns. So contrasting experience? ←
14:54:31 <bijan> ericP: When I did it I didn't have subselects, so it was the only obvious way to do it.
Eric Prud'hommeaux: When I did it I didn't have subselects, so it was the only obvious way to do it. ←
14:54:39 <bijan> LeeF: Do you have a gut feeling now as to preference?
Lee Feigenbaum: Do you have a gut feeling now as to preference? ←
14:55:01 <SteveH> +1 to ericP
Steve Harris: +1 to ericP ←
14:55:05 <SteveH> my feeling too
Steve Harris: my feeling too ←
14:55:06 <bijan> ericP: SQL users are used to a subselect and a not. But to me it has a similar feel to an optional so prefer the ingraph thing
Eric Prud'hommeaux: SQL users are used to a subselect and a not. But to me it has a similar feel to an optional so prefer the ingraph thing ←
14:55:12 <SimonS> +1 to ericP
Simon Schenk: +1 to ericP ←
14:55:17 <bijan> LeeF: kasei?
Lee Feigenbaum: kasei? ←
14:55:40 <bijan> kasei: well, i don't have a lot of experience. I threw it it for kicks. I agree with ericP about the design.
Gregory Williams: well, i don't have a lot of experience. I threw it it for kicks. I agree with ericP about the design. ←
14:56:12 <bijan> LeeF: AndyS? When you had it what did you have?
Lee Feigenbaum: AndyS? When you had it what did you have? ←
14:56:16 <AxelPolleres> q+
Axel Polleres: q+ ←
14:56:24 <KjetilK> q+ to ask about optimisations
Kjetil Kjernsmo: q+ to ask about optimisations ←
14:56:33 <bijan> AndyS: It was UNSAID.
Andy Seaborne: It was UNSAID. ←
14:56:39 <iv_an_ru> I have no technical difficulties with MINUS, we have a similar thing in SQL, but I don't know whether it will be popular.
Ivan Mikhailov: I have no technical difficulties with MINUS, we have a similar thing in SQL, but I don't know whether it will be popular. ←
14:56:48 <LeeF> ack AxelPolleres
Lee Feigenbaum: ack AxelPolleres ←
14:57:06 <bijan> AxelPolleres: Does anyone have a preference *against* having both?
Axel Polleres: Does anyone have a preference *against* having both? ←
14:57:40 <bijan> LeeF: From scuttlebut, there are people who prefer minimality. For me, I'd only have both if there was a clear functional difference.
Lee Feigenbaum: From scuttlebut, there are people who prefer minimality. For me, I'd only have both if there was a clear functional difference. ←
14:57:55 <bijan> AxelPolleres: Reversing it, is there use cases not covered by one but by the other
Axel Polleres: Reversing it, is there use cases not covered by one but by the other ←
14:57:57 <AndyS> I don't understand the usability of MINUS. We might be only a little bit better than OPTIONAL/!BOUND, but I hope Simon+Eric will show that to be a false worry.
Andy Seaborne: I don't understand the usability of MINUS. We might be only a little bit better than OPTIONAL/!BOUND, but I hope Simon+Eric will show that to be a false worry. ←
14:58:02 <bijan> ericP: [[scribe lost it]]
Eric Prud'hommeaux: [[scribe lost it]] ←
14:58:06 <iv_an_ru> I'm lazy, that's the only reason I have agains MINUS
Ivan Mikhailov: I'm lazy, that's the only reason I have agains MINUS ←
14:58:45 <LeeF> ack kjetil
Lee Feigenbaum: ack kjetil ←
14:58:45 <pgearon> AndyS, can you please elaborate?
Paula Gearon: AndyS, can you please elaborate? ←
14:58:47 <Zakim> KjetilK, you wanted to ask about optimisations
Zakim IRC Bot: KjetilK, you wanted to ask about optimisations ←
14:58:55 <AxelPolleres> UNSAID { } vs. FILTER ( !EXISTS { } ... any of the two more expressive?
Axel Polleres: UNSAID { } vs. FILTER ( !EXISTS { } ... any of the two more expressive? ←
14:59:02 <bijan> ericP: My suspicious that given that object of an UNSAID is a graph pattern you could stick a subselect there which is a scribe tormenting way to say "No".
Eric Prud'hommeaux: My suspicious that given that object of an UNSAID is a graph pattern you could stick a subselect there which is a scribe tormenting way to say "No". ←
14:59:12 <bijan> KjetilK: Does it matter for optimization?
Kjetil Kjernsmo: Does it matter for optimization? ←
14:59:29 <AxelPolleres> UNSAID { } vs. FILTER ( !EXISTS { } ... any of the two easieer to optimize?
Axel Polleres: UNSAID { } vs. FILTER ( !EXISTS { } ... any of the two easieer to optimize? ←
14:59:34 <bijan> ericP: My guess is that UNSAID is easier to optimize because you can exhaust possibilities more easily
Eric Prud'hommeaux: My guess is that UNSAID is easier to optimize because you can exhaust possibilities more easily ←
15:00:35 <AxelPolleres> what if the EXISTS is wrapped into a more complext FILTER expression? Is that the same as wrapping the complex filter inside the UNSAID pattern?
Axel Polleres: what if the EXISTS is wrapped into a more complext FILTER expression? Is that the same as wrapping the complex filter inside the UNSAID pattern? ←
15:00:49 <bijan> AndyS: I think any of the cases can be done with either. FILTER(!EXISTS... makes it easier to combine with other conditions. UNSAID controls the position of the negation. Optimization: it should be easy to spot when FILTER(!exists is the same as an UNSAID
Andy Seaborne: I think any of the cases can be done with either. FILTER(!EXISTS... makes it easier to combine with other conditions. UNSAID controls the position of the negation. Optimization: it should be easy to spot when FILTER(!exists is the same as an UNSAID ←
15:01:04 <SimonS> AxelPolleres: Outside of the UNSAID.
Axel Polleres: Outside of the UNSAID. [ Scribe Assist by Simon Schenk ] ←
15:01:14 <KjetilK> Zakim, mute me
Kjetil Kjernsmo: Zakim, mute me ←
15:01:14 <Zakim> KjetilK should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: KjetilK should now be muted ←
15:01:27 <Zakim> -AxelPolleres
Zakim IRC Bot: -AxelPolleres ←
15:01:33 <AndyS> {P} FILTER(!EXISTS{Q}) looks to me exactly the binary {P} UNSAID {Q} (he said boldly)
Andy Seaborne: {P} FILTER(!EXISTS{Q}) looks to me exactly the binary {P} UNSAID {Q} (he said boldly) ←
15:01:33 <LeeF> q?
Lee Feigenbaum: q? ←
15:01:45 <bijan> LeeF: Doesn't seem like a huge design space so we should be able to check each out and make progess.
Lee Feigenbaum: Doesn't seem like a huge design space so we should be able to check each out and make progess. ←
15:01:53 <AndyS> i.e. add {} to the lefty of filter form to foce order.
Andy Seaborne: i.e. add {} to the lefty of filter form to foce order. ←
15:01:55 <SteveH> AndyS, how sure of that are you?
Steve Harris: AndyS, how sure of that are you? ←
15:02:15 <AndyS> Very .. er .. reasonably
Andy Seaborne: Very .. er .. reasonably ←
15:02:17 <bijan> LeeF: Adjourned!
Lee Feigenbaum: Adjourned! ←
15:02:19 <SteveH> ah, yeah, with the extra {}s
Steve Harris: ah, yeah, with the extra {}s ←
15:02:29 <SteveH> that's a bit of a special case though
Steve Harris: that's a bit of a special case though ←
Formatted by CommonScribe