14:36:08 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/01/19-rdfa-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/01/19-rdfa-irc ←
14:36:10 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world ←
14:36:12 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7332
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 7332 ←
14:36:12 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start in 24 minutes
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start in 24 minutes ←
14:36:13 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Web Applications Working Group Teleconference
14:36:13 <trackbot> Date: 19 January 2012
15:00:42 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has now started
(No events recorded for 24 minutes)
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFa()10:00AM has now started ←
15:00:49 <Zakim> +scor
Zakim IRC Bot: +scor ←
15:00:52 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software ←
15:01:01 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me ←
15:01:01 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it ←
15:01:04 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me ←
15:01:04 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted ←
15:01:23 <Zakim> + +1.540.961.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.540.961.aaaa ←
15:01:27 <Zakim> - +1.540.961.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.540.961.aaaa ←
15:01:34 <Zakim> +??P25
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P25 ←
15:01:54 <Zakim> +??P27
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P27 ←
15:01:58 <manu1> zakim, I am ??P27
Manu Sporny: zakim, I am ??P27 ←
15:01:58 <Zakim> +manu1; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +manu1; got it ←
15:02:07 <niklasl> zakim, I am ??P25
Niklas Lindström: zakim, I am ??P25 ←
15:02:07 <Zakim> +niklasl; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +niklasl; got it ←
15:02:20 <manu1> zakim, who is on the call?
Manu Sporny: zakim, who is on the call? ←
15:02:20 <Zakim> On the phone I see scor, MacTed (muted), niklasl, manu1
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see scor, MacTed (muted), niklasl, manu1 ←
15:02:34 <Zakim> + +1.612.217.aabb
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.612.217.aabb ←
15:02:40 <ShaneM> zakim, I am aabb
Shane McCarron: zakim, I am aabb ←
15:02:40 <Zakim> +ShaneM; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +ShaneM; got it ←
15:02:56 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
Ivan Herman: zakim, dial ivan-voip ←
15:02:56 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made ←
15:02:58 <Zakim> +Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: +Ivan ←
15:03:51 <manu1> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2012Jan/0024.html
15:04:03 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me ←
15:04:21 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted ←
15:04:25 <MacTed> scribenick: MacTed
(Scribe set to Ted Thibodeau)
15:04:28 <MacTed> scribe: Ted
15:09:06 <MacTed> Agenda review, one change, discuss HTML+RDFa document conformance at end of call
Agenda review, one change, discuss HTML+RDFa document conformance at end of call ←
15:09:07 <manu1> Topic: ISSUE-84: fragment identifiers
15:09:07 <MacTed> manu1: This issue has been re-opened because the TAG has new language that they'd like to use. Do we want to use the new language as requested by the WWW TAG? http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2011Dec/0055.html
Manu Sporny: This issue has been re-opened because the TAG has new language that they'd like to use. Do we want to use the new language as requested by the WWW TAG? http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2011Dec/0055.html ←
15:09:52 <ShaneM> The spec now says: In some of the examples below we have used IRIs with fragment identifiers that are local to the document containing the RDFa fragment identifiers shown (e.g., 'about="#me"'). This idiom, which is also used in RDF/XML [RDF-SYNTAX-GRAMMAR] and other RDF serializations, gives a simple way to 'mint' new IRIs for entities described by RDFa and therefore contributes considerably to the expressive power of RDFa.
Shane McCarron: The spec now says: In some of the examples below we have used IRIs with fragment identifiers that are local to the document containing the RDFa fragment identifiers shown (e.g., 'about="#me"'). This idiom, which is also used in RDF/XML [RDF-SYNTAX-GRAMMAR] and other RDF serializations, gives a simple way to 'mint' new IRIs for entities described by RDFa and therefore contributes considerably to the expressive power of RDFa. ←
15:10:12 <MacTed> No concerns about new language.
No concerns about new language. ←
15:10:12 <manu1> PROPOSAL: Adopt the WWW TAG proposed language on fragment identifiers and place it into RDFa Core 1.1
PROPOSED: Adopt the WWW TAG proposed language on fragment identifiers and place it into RDFa Core 1.1 ←
15:10:14 <manu1> +1
Manu Sporny: +1 ←
15:10:16 <niklasl> +1
Niklas Lindström: +1 ←
15:10:16 <ShaneM> +1
Shane McCarron: +1 ←
15:10:23 <ivan> +1
Ivan Herman: +1 ←
15:10:33 <MacTed> MacTed: +1
Ted Thibodeau: +1 ←
15:10:35 <scor> +1
Stéphane Corlosquet: +1 ←
15:10:37 <ivan> RESOLVED: Adopt the WWW TAG proposed language on fragment identifiers and place it into RDFa Core 1.1
RESOLVED: Adopt the WWW TAG proposed language on fragment identifiers and place it into RDFa Core 1.1 ←
15:10:51 <manu1> Topic: ISSUE-125: Refine CURIE syntax
15:11:04 <manu1> https://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/125
Manu Sporny: https://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/125 ←
15:12:47 <MacTed> manu: SPARQL & Turtle use a different CURIE definition than current RDFa; request is that RDFa be aligned to the others
Manu Sporny: SPARQL & Turtle use a different CURIE definition than current RDFa; request is that RDFa be aligned to the others ←
15:13:51 <niklasl> q+
Niklas Lindström: q+ ←
15:14:11 <MacTed> ... concern is that requested revision differs from Turtle and SPARQL by explicitly disallowing http:// (and possibly some other scheme patterns)
... concern is that requested revision differs from Turtle and SPARQL by explicitly disallowing http:// (and possibly some other scheme patterns) ←
15:14:39 <manu1> ack niklasl
Manu Sporny: ack niklasl ←
15:15:24 <MacTed> niklasl: not quite clear on what's allowed and not, by these syntaxes... forward slashes seem to require backslash-escaping
Niklas Lindström: not quite clear on what's allowed and not, by these syntaxes... forward slashes seem to require backslash-escaping ←
15:15:52 <MacTed> ... Gavin appears to have misinterpreted some docs
... Gavin appears to have misinterpreted some docs ←
15:17:29 <MacTed> ivan: I sympathize with the goal of same syntax across RDFa, SPARQL, & Turtle; but if request is to put an extra restriction in RDFa, not sure that's needed
Ivan Herman: I sympathize with the goal of same syntax across RDFa, SPARQL, & Turtle; but if request is to put an extra restriction in RDFa, not sure that's needed ←
15:18:34 <manu1> Here's the definition they'd like us to use: http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-sparql11-query-20120105/#rPN_PREFIX
Manu Sporny: Here's the definition they'd like us to use: http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-sparql11-query-20120105/#rPN_PREFIX ←
15:18:42 <MacTed> manu: I think this group would agree that 1 syntax for CURIEs across all specs/languages would be good. I'm concerned about ways that the requested definition differs from Turtle and SPARQL.
Manu Sporny: I think this group would agree that 1 syntax for CURIEs across all specs/languages would be good. I'm concerned about ways that the requested definition differs from Turtle and SPARQL. ←
15:20:26 <scor> does the current RDFa syntax definition for CURIEs allow http:// ?
Stéphane Corlosquet: does the current RDFa syntax definition for CURIEs allow http:// ? ←
15:21:12 <ShaneM> I am not in favor of making changes to this at this time.
Shane McCarron: I am not in favor of making changes to this at this time. ←
15:21:14 <niklasl> scor: I'm afraid so
Stéphane Corlosquet: I'm afraid so [ Scribe Assist by Niklas Lindström ] ←
15:21:23 <MacTed> ivan: sees 2 concerns from Gavin. 1 = discrepancy between RDFa and SPARQL/Turtle CURIE def; 2 = prefix restriction(s)
Ivan Herman: sees 2 concerns from Gavin. 1 = discrepancy between RDFa and SPARQL/Turtle CURIE def; 2 = prefix restriction(s) ←
15:24:26 <MacTed> (...discussion...) suggested syntax BNF in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2012Jan/0025.html would disallow many currently acceptable CURIEs
(...discussion...) suggested syntax BNF in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2012Jan/0025.html would disallow many currently acceptable CURIEs ←
15:25:41 <ShaneM> this BNF is making my eyes bleed
Shane McCarron: this BNF is making my eyes bleed ←
15:28:07 <MacTed> (...discussion...) schema.org extensions via '/' would be invalidated by this syntax... so would dbpedia. That is if someone wanted to do this: schema:Person/Engineer/ElectricalEngineer they couldn't without escaping the slashes like so: schema:Person\/Engineer\/ElectricalEngineer ... people using schema.org are not going to understand why they have to backslash escape that stuff... and they don't have to with RDFa today.
(...discussion...) schema.org extensions via '/' would be invalidated by this syntax... so would dbpedia. That is if someone wanted to do this: schema:Person/Engineer/ElectricalEngineer they couldn't without escaping the slashes like so: schema:Person\/Engineer\/ElectricalEngineer ... people using schema.org are not going to understand why they have to backslash escape that stuff... and they don't have to with RDFa today. ←
15:29:39 <scor> ivan: it's only for external parties willing to extend these types
Ivan Herman: it's only for external parties willing to extend these types [ Scribe Assist by Stéphane Corlosquet ] ←
15:29:44 <ivan> http://schema.org/docs/extension.html
Ivan Herman: http://schema.org/docs/extension.html ←
15:29:47 <scor> not on schema.org itself
Stéphane Corlosquet: not on schema.org itself ←
15:30:45 <scor> we should bounce the / issue back to Gavin and the RDF WG
Stéphane Corlosquet: we should bounce the / issue back to Gavin and the RDF WG ←
15:31:03 <scor> re the use of / in DBpedia and schema.org extensions
Stéphane Corlosquet: re the use of / in DBpedia and schema.org extensions ←
15:31:09 <MacTed> manu: We've now confirmed two real-world use cases requiring unescaped slashes in CURIEs, with third-party extensions of schema.org and dbpedia:/resource/Albert_Einstein - if we limit the syntax, we limit the ability to shorten URIs, and that's the whole purpose of CURIEs. We can't accept a solution that requires characters like /, & and ? to be backslash escaped... it's too restrictive.
Manu Sporny: We've now confirmed two real-world use cases requiring unescaped slashes in CURIEs, with third-party extensions of schema.org and dbpedia:/resource/Albert_Einstein - if we limit the syntax, we limit the ability to shorten URIs, and that's the whole purpose of CURIEs. We can't accept a solution that requires characters like /, & and ? to be backslash escaped... it's too restrictive. ←
15:31:39 <manu1> PROPOSAL: Accept the SPARQL 1.1 Query Language definition of PN_LOCAL and PN_PREFIX for CURIEs in RDFa 1.1
PROPOSED: Accept the SPARQL 1.1 Query Language definition of PN_LOCAL and PN_PREFIX for CURIEs in RDFa 1.1 ←
15:31:50 <manu1> -1
Manu Sporny: -1 ←
15:31:53 <scor> -1
Stéphane Corlosquet: -1 ←
15:32:03 <ivan> -1
Ivan Herman: -1 ←
15:32:05 <ShaneM> -1
Shane McCarron: -1 ←
15:32:21 <ShaneM> I am a big fan of dbpedia reference
Shane McCarron: I am a big fan of dbpedia reference ←
15:32:23 <niklasl> +0
Niklas Lindström: +0 ←
15:32:47 <MacTed> Ted: +0
Ted Thibodeau: +0 ←
15:33:00 <manu1> RESOLVED: Reject the SPARQL 1.1 Query Language definition of PN_LOCAL and PN_PREFIX for CURIEs in RDFa 1.1
RESOLVED: Reject the SPARQL 1.1 Query Language definition of PN_LOCAL and PN_PREFIX for CURIEs in RDFa 1.1 ←
15:34:43 <ShaneM> q+ about why this is all a bad idea
Shane McCarron: q+ about why this is all a bad idea ←
15:35:12 <niklasl> q+
Niklas Lindström: q+ ←
15:35:32 <manu1> ack niklasl
Manu Sporny: ack niklasl ←
15:35:39 <niklasl> I still have concerns about this, outlined here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2012Jan/0027.html
Niklas Lindström: I still have concerns about this, outlined here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2012Jan/0027.html ←
15:37:45 <ShaneM> BTW we published the CURIE spec as a note when the XHTML working group shut down: http://www.w3.org/TR/curie/
Shane McCarron: BTW we published the CURIE spec as a note when the XHTML working group shut down: http://www.w3.org/TR/curie/ ←
15:40:40 <MacTed> (...discussion...) colon as separation character is where the trouble lies, but fixing that is an enormous task touching many specs, the discussion would be unending and all to solve a problem that we've never heard anybody complain about. The proposed solution is worse than what we have in RDFa right now.
(...discussion...) colon as separation character is where the trouble lies, but fixing that is an enormous task touching many specs, the discussion would be unending and all to solve a problem that we've never heard anybody complain about. The proposed solution is worse than what we have in RDFa right now. ←
15:41:32 <ShaneM> I am actually not opposed to preventing a slash as a first character of a reference
Shane McCarron: I am actually not opposed to preventing a slash as a first character of a reference ←
15:44:39 <manu1> PROPOSAL: Prevent a slash as the first character in the reference part of a CURIE.
PROPOSED: Prevent a slash as the first character in the reference part of a CURIE. ←
15:42:56 <ivan> 0
Ivan Herman: 0 ←
15:44:41 <manu1> -1
Manu Sporny: -1 ←
15:44:47 <ivan> 0
Ivan Herman: 0 ←
15:45:02 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
15:45:16 <MacTed> (...discussion...) past specs allowed what we're considering disallowing... which means we're doing something that is backwards incompatible
(...discussion...) past specs allowed what we're considering disallowing... which means we're doing something that is backwards incompatible ←
15:45:28 <manu1> ack ivan
Manu Sporny: ack ivan ←
15:46:02 <MacTed> (...discussion...) current refinement suggestions are further departure from CURIE specs in SPARQL and Turtle, not alignment... if we are to align these specifications, resolving to not allow a slash as the first character in the reference part of a CURIE is a bad way to start the discussion. We should coordinate more on RDF WG on this, but this is not for RDFa 1.1.
(...discussion...) current refinement suggestions are further departure from CURIE specs in SPARQL and Turtle, not alignment... if we are to align these specifications, resolving to not allow a slash as the first character in the reference part of a CURIE is a bad way to start the discussion. We should coordinate more on RDF WG on this, but this is not for RDFa 1.1. ←
15:47:34 <ShaneM> 0
Shane McCarron: 0 ←
15:47:39 <niklasl> +1
Niklas Lindström: +1 ←
15:47:39 <ivan> -0
Ivan Herman: -0 ←
15:47:55 <MacTed> Ted: +0
Ted Thibodeau: +0 ←
15:48:01 <scor> -0
Stéphane Corlosquet: -0 ←
15:48:55 <MacTed> Manu: We don't have consensus on this, we've discussed all of this before, no new information... let's move on.
Manu Sporny: We don't have consensus on this, we've discussed all of this before, no new information... let's move on. ←
15:49:59 <manu1> Topic: Use of RDFa in XML-based languages
15:50:11 <ivan> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2012Jan/0031.html
Ivan Herman: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2012Jan/0031.html ←
15:50:11 <MacTed> manu: Yes, this was my comment. I don't think that we should limit that RDFa attributes in XML documents MUST be in the XHTML namespace... authors are just not going to do that. We should instead say that RDFa attributes can be in the 'no namespace'.
Manu Sporny: Yes, this was my comment. I don't think that we should limit that RDFa attributes in XML documents MUST be in the XHTML namespace... authors are just not going to do that. We should instead say that RDFa attributes can be in the 'no namespace'. ←
15:54:11 <MacTed> Shane: What about clashes w/ languages that use stuff like @href and @src? Maybe we should allow them in XHTML namespace as well, so attributes can be used in both 'no namespace' and xhtml namespace... processors much check both.
Shane McCarron: What about clashes w/ languages that use stuff like @href and @src? Maybe we should allow them in XHTML namespace as well, so attributes can be used in both 'no namespace' and xhtml namespace... processors much check both. ←
15:55:16 <MacTed> General agreement on changes, no opposition.
General agreement on changes, no opposition. ←
15:56:24 <MacTed> Niklas: We should warn authors about conflicts in 'no namespace'.
Niklas Lindström: We should warn authors about conflicts in 'no namespace'. ←
15:58:59 <manu1> PROPOSAL: Change XML+RDFa such that RDFa attributes are defined in 'no namespace' and XHTML namespace and also caution authors that they must pay attention to XML-based languages where the RDFa attributes and Host Language attributes may overlap.
PROPOSED: Change XML+RDFa such that RDFa attributes are defined in 'no namespace' and XHTML namespace and also caution authors that they must pay attention to XML-based languages where the RDFa attributes and Host Language attributes may overlap. ←
16:00:16 <ivan> +1
Ivan Herman: +1 ←
16:00:19 <manu1> +1
Manu Sporny: +1 ←
16:00:22 <MacTed> Ted: +1
Ted Thibodeau: +1 ←
16:00:24 <ShaneM> +1
Shane McCarron: +1 ←
16:00:25 <niklasl> +1
Niklas Lindström: +1 ←
16:00:36 <scor> +1
Stéphane Corlosquet: +1 ←
16:00:38 <manu1> RESOLVED: Change XML+RDFa such that RDFa attributes are defined in 'no namespace' and XHTML namespace and also caution authors that they must pay attention to XML-based languages where the RDFa attributes and Host Language attributes may overlap.
RESOLVED: Change XML+RDFa such that RDFa attributes are defined in 'no namespace' and XHTML namespace and also caution authors that they must pay attention to XML-based languages where the RDFa attributes and Host Language attributes may overlap. ←
16:01:23 <manu1> Topic: @resource in RDFaLite 1.1
16:03:53 <MacTed> Ivan: We need to make a decision on whether or not we're going to replace @about with @resource in RDFa Lite 1.1
Ivan Herman: We need to make a decision on whether or not we're going to replace @about with @resource in RDFa Lite 1.1 ←
16:04:53 <MacTed> Manu: To avoid another LC, we should note it clearly in the document that we /may/ do this after LC, so folks should weigh in on it during LC. That'll cover us from having to do another LC.
Manu Sporny: To avoid another LC, we should note it clearly in the document that we /may/ do this after LC, so folks should weigh in on it during LC. That'll cover us from having to do another LC. ←
16:04:53 <MacTed> Ivan: We need to make this decision eventually.
Ivan Herman: We need to make this decision eventually. ←
16:06:53 <MacTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
RRSAgent, draft minutes ←
16:06:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/01/19-rdfa-minutes.html MacTed
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/01/19-rdfa-minutes.html MacTed ←
16:06:56 <MacTed> RRSAgent, make logs public
RRSAgent, make logs public ←
16:06:57 <Zakim> -Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: -Ivan ←
16:06:59 <Zakim> -manu1
Zakim IRC Bot: -manu1 ←
16:07:04 <MacTed> trackbot, end meeting
trackbot, end meeting ←
16:07:04 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, list attendees ←
16:07:04 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been scor, MacTed, +1.540.961.aaaa, manu1, niklasl, +1.612.217.aabb, ShaneM, Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: As of this point the attendees have been scor, MacTed, +1.540.961.aaaa, manu1, niklasl, +1.612.217.aabb, ShaneM, Ivan ←
16:07:07 <Zakim> -scor
Zakim IRC Bot: -scor ←
16:07:07 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, please draft minutes ←
16:07:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/01/19-rdfa-minutes.html trackbot
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/01/19-rdfa-minutes.html trackbot ←
16:07:08 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, bye ←
16:07:08 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see no action items ←
16:07:09 <Zakim> -ShaneM
Zakim IRC Bot: -ShaneM ←
16:07:10 <Zakim> -niklasl
Zakim IRC Bot: -niklasl ←
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