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RDF Web Applications Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 28 July 2011

Agenda
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2011Jul/0058.html
Seen
Gregg Kellogg, Henri Bergius, Knud Möller, Manu Sporny, Niklas Lindström, Shane McCarron, Stéphane Corlosquet, Ted Thibodeau, Thomas Steiner
Guests
Stéphane Corlosquet, Henri Bergius, Niklas Lindström
Chair
Manu Sporny
Scribe
Thomas Steiner
IRC Log
Original
Resolutions
  1. Remove @profile feature from the RDFa Core specification with the caveat that the issue will be re-opened if ePub, OpenDoc, IPTC, or other communities have an issue with its removal. link
Topics
13:56:59 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/07/28-rdfa-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/07/28-rdfa-irc

13:57:01 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world

13:57:03 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7332

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 7332

13:57:04 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Web Applications Working Group Teleconference
13:57:04 <trackbot> Date: 28 July 2011
13:57:04 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes

13:57:06 <manu1> Chair: Manu
13:57:06 <manu1> Guest: Stéphane (scor) Corlosquet
13:57:06 <manu1> Guest: Henri (bergie) Bergius
13:57:06 <manu1> Guest: Niklas (lindstream) Lindström
13:57:50 <manu1> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2011Jul/0058.html
13:57:58 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has now started

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFa()10:00AM has now started

13:58:05 <Zakim> +??P14

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P14

13:58:22 <lindstream> zakim, I am ??P14

Niklas Lindström: zakim, I am ??P14

13:58:22 <Zakim> +lindstream; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +lindstream; got it

13:58:30 <Zakim> +??P17

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P17

13:58:33 <manu1> zakim, I am ??P17

Manu Sporny: zakim, I am ??P17

13:58:33 <Zakim> +manu1; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +manu1; got it

13:59:44 <Zakim> +??P19

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P19

13:59:53 <gkellogg> zakim, i am ??P19

Gregg Kellogg: zakim, i am ??P19

13:59:54 <Zakim> +gkellogg; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +gkellogg; got it

14:00:24 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software

Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software

14:00:31 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

14:00:33 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it

14:00:35 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

14:00:37 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted

14:00:44 <MacTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes

Ted Thibodeau: RRSAgent, draft minutes

14:00:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/28-rdfa-minutes.html MacTed

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/28-rdfa-minutes.html MacTed

14:00:57 <MacTed> RRSAgent, make logs public

Ted Thibodeau: RRSAgent, make logs public

14:02:19 <Zakim> + +1.781.866.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.781.866.aaaa

14:02:36 <Zakim> + +3539149aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: + +3539149aabb

14:02:43 <Zakim> + +358.405.25aacc

Zakim IRC Bot: + +358.405.25aacc

14:02:50 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me

14:02:50 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted

14:02:52 <Knud> zakim, i am aabb

Knud Möller: zakim, i am aabb

14:02:52 <Zakim> +Knud; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Knud; got it

14:02:57 <bergie> zakim, I am aacc

Henri Bergius: zakim, I am aacc

14:02:57 <Zakim> +bergie; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +bergie; got it

14:03:01 <bergie> zakim, mute me

Henri Bergius: zakim, mute me

14:03:01 <Zakim> bergie should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bergie should now be muted

14:03:37 <Knud> zakim, mute me

Knud Möller: zakim, mute me

14:03:37 <Zakim> Knud should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Knud should now be muted

14:04:02 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here?

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's here?

14:04:02 <Zakim> On the phone I see lindstream, manu1, gkellogg, MacTed, +1.781.866.aaaa, Knud (muted), bergie (muted)

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see lindstream, manu1, gkellogg, MacTed, +1.781.866.aaaa, Knud (muted), bergie (muted)

14:04:04 <Zakim> On IRC I see scor, Knud, tomayac, Zakim, RRSAgent, lindstream, MacTed, danbri, bergie, gkellogg, manu1, manu, trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see scor, Knud, tomayac, Zakim, RRSAgent, lindstream, MacTed, danbri, bergie, gkellogg, manu1, manu, trackbot

14:04:16 <scor> zakim, I'm aaaa

Stéphane Corlosquet: zakim, I'm aaaa

14:04:16 <Zakim> I don't understand 'I'm aaaa', scor

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'I'm aaaa', scor

14:04:24 <MacTed> Zakim, aaaa is scor

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, aaaa is scor

14:04:27 <Zakim> +scor; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +scor; got it

14:04:29 <scor> zakim, aaaa is me

Stéphane Corlosquet: zakim, aaaa is me

14:04:31 <Zakim> sorry, scor, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, scor, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'

14:05:00 <manu1> zakim, who is on the call?

Manu Sporny: zakim, who is on the call?

14:05:00 <Zakim> On the phone I see lindstream, manu1, gkellogg, MacTed, scor, Knud (muted), bergie (muted)

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see lindstream, manu1, gkellogg, MacTed, scor, Knud (muted), bergie (muted)

14:05:06 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

14:05:09 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted

14:05:12 <Zakim> +tomayac

Zakim IRC Bot: +tomayac

14:06:42 <manu1> scribenick: tomayac

(Scribe set to Thomas Steiner)

14:07:28 <tomayac> manu1: Do we need to discuss http://structured-data.org/ ?

Manu Sporny: Do we need to discuss http://structured-data.org/ ?

14:07:41 <tomayac> gkellogg: no news, continous work, but not ready for release yet

Gregg Kellogg: no news, continous work, but not ready for release yet

14:08:20 <tomayac> manu1: Tantek Çelik from Microformats community and Philip Jägenstedt and Henri Sivonen from Microdata community have been added to the structured-data code repository as admins. We are attempting to build bridges - hopefully this is a good first step.

Manu Sporny: Tantek Çelik from Microformats community and Philip Jägenstedt and Henri Sivonen from Microdata community have been added to the structured-data code repository as admins. We are attempting to build bridges - hopefully this is a good first step.

14:09:17 <manu1> Topic: Proxy vocabularies via @vocab

1. Proxy vocabularies via @vocab

14:09:43 <lindstream> https://gist.github.com/1092350

Niklas Lindström: https://gist.github.com/1092350

14:09:48 <manu1> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2011Jul/0048.html

Manu Sporny: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2011Jul/0048.html

14:10:02 <Zakim> +??P48

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P48

14:10:16 <ShaneM> zakim, who is here?

Shane McCarron: zakim, who is here?

14:10:16 <Zakim> On the phone I see lindstream, manu1, gkellogg, MacTed (muted), scor, Knud (muted), bergie (muted), tomayac, ??P48

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see lindstream, manu1, gkellogg, MacTed (muted), scor, Knud (muted), bergie (muted), tomayac, ??P48

14:10:19 <Zakim> On IRC I see ShaneM, scor, Knud, tomayac, Zakim, RRSAgent, lindstream, MacTed, danbri, bergie, gkellogg, manu1, manu, trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see ShaneM, scor, Knud, tomayac, Zakim, RRSAgent, lindstream, MacTed, danbri, bergie, gkellogg, manu1, manu, trackbot

14:10:22 <ShaneM> zakim, I am ??P48

Shane McCarron: zakim, I am ??P48

14:10:22 <Zakim> +ShaneM; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +ShaneM; got it

14:11:00 <tomayac> Niklas talks us through https://gist.github.com/1092350 - Basically a Proxy Vocabulary would allow people to define uber-vocabularies, like http://schema.org/ , but also ensure that there is a clear mechanism of mapping those vocabularies to dc, foaf, sioc or other more widely used vocabularies.

Niklas talks us through https://gist.github.com/1092350 - Basically a Proxy Vocabulary would allow people to define uber-vocabularies, like http://schema.org/ , but also ensure that there is a clear mechanism of mapping those vocabularies to dc, foaf, sioc or other more widely used vocabularies.

14:11:56 <tomayac> manu1: this almost looks like a re-invention of rdfa profiles. not saying it's a bad thing, just want to understand why we have things like map:ProxyTerm and map:ProxyClass.

Manu Sporny: this almost looks like a re-invention of rdfa profiles. not saying it's a bad thing, just want to understand why we have things like map:ProxyTerm and map:ProxyClass.

14:12:06 <Knud> should this be part of the RDFa spec, or a separate spec (a W3C note?) that do we reference?

Knud Möller: should this be part of the RDFa spec, or a separate spec (a W3C note?) that do we reference?

14:12:12 <tomayac> lindstream: it grew from that (RDFa Profiles). similarity is intentional.

Niklas Lindström: it grew from that (RDFa Profiles). similarity is intentional.

14:13:20 <Knud> q+

Knud Möller: q+

14:13:37 <tomayac> manu1: Proxy Vocabularies are a post-processing step

Manu Sporny: Proxy Vocabularies are a post-processing step

14:14:04 <tomayac> manu1: wondering why not just using rdfs instead of map?

Manu Sporny: wondering why not just using rdfs instead of map?

14:14:21 <gkellogg> +1 to talk about diff with rdfs

Gregg Kellogg: +1 to talk about diff with rdfs

14:14:51 <gkellogg> q+ to talk about diff with rdfs

Gregg Kellogg: q+ to talk about diff with rdfs

14:15:47 <Knud> zakim, unmute me

Knud Möller: zakim, unmute me

14:15:47 <Zakim> Knud should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Knud should no longer be muted

14:15:48 <manu1> ack Knud

Manu Sporny: ack Knud

14:16:08 <tomayac> knud: do you think this should be a part of rdfa, or a best practice?

Knud Möller: do you think this should be a part of rdfa, or a best practice?

14:16:28 <lindstream> q+

Niklas Lindström: q+

14:16:41 <tomayac> lindstream: i don't see this as a part of rdfa

Niklas Lindström: i don't see this as a part of rdfa

14:16:45 <manu1> ack gkellogg

Manu Sporny: ack gkellogg

14:16:45 <Zakim> gkellogg, you wanted to talk about diff with rdfs

Zakim IRC Bot: gkellogg, you wanted to talk about diff with rdfs

14:17:00 <tomayac> gkellogg: this can be more generic than just rdfa

Gregg Kellogg: this can be more generic than just rdfa

14:17:12 <tomayac> gkellogg: it includes some of the rdf entailment rules

Gregg Kellogg: it includes some of the rdf entailment rules

14:17:23 <tomayac> gkellogg: you don't need something like owl:sameas which requires multiple iterations at times and is NP Complete.

Gregg Kellogg: you don't need something like owl:sameas which requires multiple iterations at times and is NP Complete.

14:18:03 <tomayac> gkellogg: Proxy Vocabularies are simpler - we probably do want something normative about it

Gregg Kellogg: Proxy Vocabularies are simpler - we probably do want something normative about it

14:18:05 <manu1> ack lindstream

Manu Sporny: ack lindstream

14:18:33 <tomayac> lindstream: it would be good to publish a note apart from the rdfa spec

Niklas Lindström: it would be good to publish a note apart from the rdfa spec

14:18:45 <tomayac> lindstream: there might be a need for this pattern elsewhere

Niklas Lindström: there might be a need for this pattern elsewhere

14:19:09 <manu1> q+ to respond directly to Knud's question

Manu Sporny: q+ to respond directly to Knud's question

14:19:28 <tomayac> lindstream: not sure if it's better than mixing vocabularies, but imho it's very valuable

Niklas Lindström: not sure if it's better than mixing vocabularies, but imho it's very valuable

14:19:28 <Knud> q+

Knud Möller: q+

14:19:46 <manu1> ack manu1

Manu Sporny: ack manu1

14:19:46 <Zakim> manu1, you wanted to respond directly to Knud's question

Zakim IRC Bot: manu1, you wanted to respond directly to Knud's question

14:20:05 <tomayac> manu1: we should say something normative about it

Manu Sporny: we should say something normative about it

14:20:34 <tomayac> manu1: mapping might be done differently by google, facebook, etc.

Manu Sporny: mapping might be done differently by google, facebook, etc.

14:21:02 <tomayac> manu1: there's an opportunity to be specific on how we expect follow your nose to work.

Manu Sporny: there's an opportunity to be specific on how we expect follow your nose to work.

14:21:04 <manu1> ack knud

Manu Sporny: ack knud

14:21:21 <tomayac> knud: not yet completely convinced

Knud Möller: not yet completely convinced

14:21:47 <tomayac> knud: a stand-alone doc might be more useful

Knud Möller: a stand-alone doc might be more useful

14:22:24 <tomayac> knud: facebook and google don't seem to want people to mix vocabularies, also microdata people think uber-vocabularies would be easier

Knud Möller: facebook and google don't seem to want people to mix vocabularies, also microdata people think uber-vocabularies would be easier

14:22:58 <manu1> q+

Manu Sporny: q+

14:23:08 <tomayac> knud: being able to mix vocabularies was our main motiviation to introduce profiles

Knud Möller: being able to mix vocabularies was our main motiviation to introduce profiles

14:23:09 <manu1> ack manu1

Manu Sporny: ack manu1

14:23:29 <tomayac> knud: but it seems that the big players don't want / need this, though

Knud Möller: but it seems that the big players don't want / need this, though

14:23:52 <tomayac> manu: I'm concerned about the W3C process

Manu Sporny: I'm concerned about the W3C process

14:24:23 <lindstream> q+

Niklas Lindström: q+

14:24:25 <tomayac> manu1: pushing this separately as a REC is out of charter

Manu Sporny: pushing this separately as a REC is out of charter

14:24:38 <tomayac> manu1: we can put it in the rdfa core spec, but there are also issues with doing that - we may be too specific to RDFa - Proxy Vocabularies are a more general solution.

Manu Sporny: we can put it in the rdfa core spec, but there are also issues with doing that - we may be too specific to RDFa - Proxy Vocabularies are a more general solution.

14:24:53 <tomayac> manu1: we can always publish it as a note and people can either ignore or use it

Manu Sporny: we can always publish it as a note and people can either ignore or use it

14:25:07 <tomayac> lindstream: i didn't ask to be normative about this

Niklas Lindström: i didn't ask to be normative about this

14:25:21 <manu1> ack lindstream

Manu Sporny: ack lindstream

14:25:58 <gkellogg> q+

Gregg Kellogg: q+

14:26:00 <Knud> zakim, mute me

Knud Möller: zakim, mute me

14:26:00 <Zakim> Knud should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Knud should now be muted

14:26:03 <manu1> ack gkellogg

Manu Sporny: ack gkellogg

14:26:05 <tomayac> manu1: I would be fine with publishing as a note

Manu Sporny: I would be fine with publishing as a note

14:26:34 <ShaneM> q+ to ask what problem are we trying to solve?

Shane McCarron: q+ to ask what problem are we trying to solve?

14:26:57 <tomayac> gkellogg: doing it in a non-normative way might result in everyone just doing it their way

Gregg Kellogg: doing it in a non-normative way might result in everyone just doing it their way

14:27:03 <manu1> ack ShaneM

Manu Sporny: ack ShaneM

14:27:04 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to ask what problem are we trying to solve?

Zakim IRC Bot: ShaneM, you wanted to ask what problem are we trying to solve?

14:27:05 <tomayac> gkellogg: might lead to confusion

Gregg Kellogg: might lead to confusion

14:27:31 <tomayac> shanem: we created this WG with a set of use cases and a plan to address them

Shane McCarron: we created this WG with a set of use cases and a plan to address them

14:27:57 <tomayac> shanem: if we come to the end without addressing the use cases, we should just say we don't address them

Shane McCarron: if we come to the end without addressing the use cases, we should just say we don't address them

14:28:37 <tomayac> manu1: we were very concerned about vocabulary mixing

Manu Sporny: we were very concerned about vocabulary mixing

14:28:46 <MacTed> +1

Ted Thibodeau: +1

14:28:54 <tomayac> shanem: if we come out of this without a way to do it, i feel like we have not done our job

Shane McCarron: if we come out of this without a way to do it, i feel like we have not done our job

14:29:26 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me

14:29:26 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted

14:29:39 <tomayac> manu1: does not be normative mean you (OpenLink) wouldn't put it in Virtuouso

Manu Sporny: does not be normative mean you (OpenLink) wouldn't put it in Virtuouso

14:30:37 <Knud> vocabulary mixing can always be done with @prefix, right?

Knud Möller: vocabulary mixing can always be done with @prefix, right?

14:30:55 <tomayac> macted: not necessarily, @prefix doesn't allow term re-mixing?

Ted Thibodeau: not necessarily, @prefix doesn't allow term re-mixing?

14:31:22 <tomayac> manu1: would proxy vocabularies be a good replacement?

Manu Sporny: would proxy vocabularies be a good replacement?

14:32:02 <tomayac> shanem: i would agree

Shane McCarron: i would agree

14:32:12 <tomayac> macted: not sure what problem is being resolved

Ted Thibodeau: not sure what problem is being resolved

14:33:18 <tomayac> manu1: option 1 = modify prefix, 2 = use vocab, but limits to one vocabulary

Manu Sporny: option 1 = modify prefix, 2 = use vocab, but limits to one vocabulary

14:33:46 <tomayac> manu1: proxy vocabulary allows for mixing via a big über vocabulary

Manu Sporny: proxy vocabulary allows for mixing via a big über vocabulary

14:34:10 <ShaneM> q+ to ask for a clarification on @vocab

Shane McCarron: q+ to ask for a clarification on @vocab

14:34:24 <manu1> ack shanem

Manu Sporny: ack shanem

14:34:24 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to ask for a clarification on @vocab

Zakim IRC Bot: ShaneM, you wanted to ask for a clarification on @vocab

14:34:45 <tomayac> shanem: if I'm a semantic data processing engine, and I see a term called 'foo', I'm gonna follow my nose to the profile document

Shane McCarron: if I'm a semantic data processing engine, and I see a term called 'foo', I'm gonna follow my nose to the profile document

14:35:14 <lindstream> q+

Niklas Lindström: q+

14:35:16 <tomayac> shanem: when I do that, I see that 'foo' maps to 'foaf:name'. Shouldn't a hardcore semantic data processing engine be doing that anyway?

Shane McCarron: when I do that, I see that 'foo' maps to 'foaf:name'. Shouldn't a hardcore semantic data processing engine be doing that anyway?

14:35:32 <manu1> ack lindstream

Manu Sporny: ack lindstream

14:35:34 <tomayac> manu1: in theory this is how it works, in practice - I don't think there are many people doing that.

Manu Sporny: in theory this is how it works, in practice - I don't think there are many people doing that.

14:35:52 <tomayac> lindstream: it is true that we already have all the semantic mechanisms there

Niklas Lindström: it is true that we already have all the semantic mechanisms there

14:36:11 <manu1> q+ to add normative statements to @vocab

Manu Sporny: q+ to add normative statements to @vocab

14:36:21 <tomayac> lindstream: it is more or less putting a focus on how to do it. Proxy Vocabularies are a middle-ground between hardcore entailment/reasoning and dumb processing. If we want this stuff to work well in browsers, we can't expect an NP Complete solution to get traction.

Niklas Lindström: it is more or less putting a focus on how to do it. Proxy Vocabularies are a middle-ground between hardcore entailment/reasoning and dumb processing. If we want this stuff to work well in browsers, we can't expect an NP Complete solution to get traction.

14:37:18 <gkellogg> q+

Gregg Kellogg: q+

14:37:30 <tomayac> shanem: if the semweb isn't doing this yet, then probably they never will. who needs the hint?

Shane McCarron: if the semweb isn't doing this yet, then probably they never will. who needs the hint?

14:37:38 <tomayac> lindstream: the non-hardcore engines

Niklas Lindström: the non-hardcore engines

14:37:45 <tomayac> shanem: but they don't seem to care

Shane McCarron: but they don't seem to care

14:37:51 <tomayac> lindstream: fair enough...

Niklas Lindström: fair enough...

14:37:52 <manu1> ack manu1

Manu Sporny: ack manu1

14:37:52 <Zakim> manu1, you wanted to add normative statements to @vocab

Zakim IRC Bot: manu1, you wanted to add normative statements to @vocab

14:38:15 <tomayac> manu1: what if we said normatively that you should use proxy vocabularies if you plan to do an uber vocabulary?

Manu Sporny: what if we said normatively that you should use proxy vocabularies if you plan to do an uber vocabulary?

14:38:28 <lindstream> q+

Niklas Lindström: q+

14:39:07 <tomayac> manu1: we shouldn't have to say this

Manu Sporny: we shouldn't have to say this

14:39:23 <manu1> ack gkellogg

Manu Sporny: ack gkellogg

14:39:24 <tomayac> manu1: we expect people that use vocab to make sure that people can follow their nose

Manu Sporny: we expect people that use vocab to make sure that people can follow their nose

14:39:43 <tomayac> gkellogg: we have to remember that there's a difference between processing and reasoning

Gregg Kellogg: we have to remember that there's a difference between processing and reasoning

14:40:07 <tomayac> gkellogg: if we ever want to have browser vendors to do stuff with this, reasoning won't be the way

Gregg Kellogg: if we ever want to have browser vendors to do stuff with this, reasoning won't be the way

14:40:08 <ShaneM> text from the role spec about vocabluaries: It is possible to define additional role values. Such values must be defined in their own vocabulary. The URI associated with that vocabulary should resolve to a resource that allows for the machine and human discovery of the definition of the roles in the vocabulary. One format that achieves this is the RDFa Profile as defined in [RDFA-CORE].

Shane McCarron: text from the role spec about vocabluaries: It is possible to define additional role values. Such values must be defined in their own vocabulary. The URI associated with that vocabulary should resolve to a resource that allows for the machine and human discovery of the definition of the roles in the vocabulary. One format that achieves this is the RDFa Profile as defined in [RDFA-CORE].

14:40:22 <manu1> ack lindstream

Manu Sporny: ack lindstream

14:40:52 <tomayac> lindstream: since vocab is used to turn the term into a uri, you should be able to get info on what it is

Niklas Lindström: since vocab is used to turn the term into a uri, you should be able to get info on what it is

14:41:26 <ShaneM> I am happy to add text to RDFa Core that indicates the URI for @vocab must resolve and SHOULD resolve to a resource that ... (see above)

Shane McCarron: I am happy to add text to RDFa Core that indicates the URI for @vocab must resolve and SHOULD resolve to a resource that ... (see above)

14:41:56 <tomayac> lindstream: hardcore semweb engines follow their noses, others don't

Niklas Lindström: hardcore semweb engines follow their noses, others don't

14:42:26 <tomayac> manu1: seems like we have come full circle here, this stuff should just work in an "ideal world" - however, we are not operating in that and some guidance would be good.

Manu Sporny: seems like we have come full circle here, this stuff should just work in an "ideal world" - however, we are not operating in that and some guidance would be good.

14:43:55 <tomayac> shanem: if the community is unable to figure out follow your nose reliably, the semantic web community has failed miserably in explaining it correctly. How is this problem? We're just writing a small spec on top of the sem web stack - isn't this the responsibility of the larger semweb community?

Shane McCarron: if the community is unable to figure out follow your nose reliably, the semantic web community has failed miserably in explaining it correctly. How is this problem? We're just writing a small spec on top of the sem web stack - isn't this the responsibility of the larger semweb community?

14:44:16 <lindstream> q+

Niklas Lindström: q+

14:45:13 <ShaneM> Ted: put it in the primer

Ted Thibodeau: put it in the primer [ Scribe Assist by Shane McCarron ]

14:45:27 <tomayac> shanem: we are now endlessly complicating

Shane McCarron: we are now endlessly complicating

14:46:29 <Knud> isn't there a W3C document somewhere called "the self-describing web"?

Knud Möller: isn't there a W3C document somewhere called "the self-describing web"?

14:46:33 <ShaneM> the sem web coord group may surprise you and point you at an existing spec that describes follow your nose

Shane McCarron: the sem web coord group may surprise you and point you at an existing spec that describes follow your nose

14:46:50 <ShaneM> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/selfDescribingDocuments.html

Shane McCarron: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/selfDescribingDocuments.html

14:47:06 <Knud> yes, that

Knud Möller: yes, that

14:48:09 <ShaneM> q+ to clarify whether we want language in rdfa core that indicates that a vocab should include an RDFa definition of the vocab

Shane McCarron: q+ to clarify whether we want language in rdfa core that indicates that a vocab should include an RDFa definition of the vocab

14:48:21 <manu1> ack lindstream

Manu Sporny: ack lindstream

14:48:51 <MacTed> it just seems that we're doing s/@profile/@proxyvocab/g

Ted Thibodeau: it just seems that we're doing s/@profile/@proxyvocab/g

14:49:05 <MacTed> not really changing what's happening -- just the term for it

Ted Thibodeau: not really changing what's happening -- just the term for it

14:49:07 <tomayac> manu1: the semweb coordination group might be a good candidate for publishing this doc

Manu Sporny: the semweb coordination group might be a good candidate for publishing this doc

14:49:24 <manu1> ACTION: Manu to raise @profile and Proxy Vocabulary issue with SWCG.

ACTION: Manu to raise @profile and Proxy Vocabulary issue with SWCG.

14:49:25 <trackbot> Created ACTION-88 - Raise @profile and Proxy Vocabulary issue with SWCG. [on Manu Sporny - due 2011-08-04].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-88 - Raise @profile and Proxy Vocabulary issue with SWCG. [on Manu Sporny - due 2011-08-04].

14:49:50 <ShaneM> q?

Shane McCarron: q?

14:49:54 <manu1> ack shanem

Manu Sporny: ack shanem

14:49:54 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to clarify whether we want language in rdfa core that indicates that a vocab should include an RDFa definition of the vocab

Zakim IRC Bot: ShaneM, you wanted to clarify whether we want language in rdfa core that indicates that a vocab should include an RDFa definition of the vocab

14:50:20 <tomayac> shanem: do you want me to put that sentence (above) in the spec?

Shane McCarron: do you want me to put that sentence (above) in the spec?

14:50:22 <Knud> RDFa or other RDF?

Knud Möller: RDFa or other RDF?

14:50:30 <tomayac> shanem: objections? none

Shane McCarron: objections? none

14:50:33 <Knud> zakim, unmute me

Knud Möller: zakim, unmute me

14:50:33 <Zakim> Knud should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Knud should no longer be muted

14:50:53 <ShaneM> The URI associated with that vocabulary should resolve to a resource that allows for the machine and human discovery of the definition of the roles in the vocabulary. One format that achieves this is the RDFa Profile as defined in [RDFA-CORE].

Shane McCarron: The URI associated with that vocabulary should resolve to a resource that allows for the machine and human discovery of the definition of the roles in the vocabulary. One format that achieves this is the RDFa Profile as defined in [RDFA-CORE].

14:51:47 <lindstream> q+

Niklas Lindström: q+

14:51:50 <ShaneM> RDFa Profiles are collections of terms, prefix mappings, and/or default  vocabulary declarations.  A profile is either intrinsically  known to  the parser, or it is loaded as an external document and processed. These documents must be defined in an approved RDFa Host Language (currently XML+RDFa and XHTML+RDFa [XHTML-RDFA]).  They may also be defined in other formats (e.g., RDF/XML [RDF-SYNTAX-GRAMMAR],  or Turtle [TURTLE]). RDFa Profiles are referenced via @profile

Shane McCarron: RDFa Profiles are collections of terms, prefix mappings, and/or default vocabulary declarations. A profile is either intrinsically known to the parser, or it is loaded as an external document and processed. These documents must be defined in an approved RDFa Host Language (currently XML+RDFa and XHTML+RDFa [XHTML-RDFA]). They may also be defined in other formats (e.g., RDF/XML [RDF-SYNTAX-GRAMMAR], or Turtle [TURTLE]). RDFa Profiles are referenced via @profile

14:52:00 <manu1> ack lindstream

Manu Sporny: ack lindstream

14:52:17 <tomayac> lindstream: i agree. it is just a uri

Niklas Lindström: i agree. it is just a uri

14:52:39 <tomayac> Topic: Removing @profile

2. Removing @profile

14:52:39 <tomayac> manu1: are we ok with removing profile entirely from rdfa core?

Manu Sporny: are we ok with removing profile entirely from rdfa core?

14:53:02 <tomayac> manu1: with the assumption that the vocabulary stuff will be cleared

Manu Sporny: with the assumption that the vocabulary stuff will be cleared

14:53:09 <MacTed> q+

Ted Thibodeau: q+

14:53:28 <manu1> ack macted

Manu Sporny: ack macted

14:53:58 <tomayac> macted: we don't seem to have a clear understanding of what the problem is

Ted Thibodeau: we don't seem to have a clear understanding of what the problem is

14:54:03 <Knud> q+

Knud Möller: q+

14:54:04 <lindstream> q+

Niklas Lindström: q+

14:54:08 <manu1> ack knud

Manu Sporny: ack knud

14:54:23 <tomayac> knud: the problem with profile is that rdfa core requires it to be resolved

Knud Möller: the problem with profile is that rdfa core requires it to be resolved

14:54:30 <tomayac> knud: what if it can't ?

Knud Möller: what if it can't ?

14:54:45 <tomayac> knud: vocab does not have to be resolved, it can be, though

Knud Möller: vocab does not have to be resolved, it can be, though

14:55:19 <manu1> ack lindstream

Manu Sporny: ack lindstream

14:55:32 <tomayac> manu1: to clarify: RDFa Profiles via @profile is a 'must pre-process' mechanism, Proxy Vocabularies via @vocab is a 'may post-process' mechanism

Manu Sporny: to clarify: RDFa Profiles via @profile is a 'must pre-process' mechanism, Proxy Vocabularies via @vocab is a 'may post-process' mechanism

14:55:45 <ShaneM> not MAY pre-process.  CAN post-process.

Shane McCarron: not MAY pre-process. CAN post-process.

14:56:02 <ShaneM> And, FWIW, it was ALWAYS this way (@vocab)

Shane McCarron: And, FWIW, it was ALWAYS this way (@vocab)

14:57:08 <gkellogg> Without giving some guidance on /how/ to process @vocab, nothing will happen. We should have text indicating /what/ should be in the doc pointed to by @vocab with simple processing rules.

Gregg Kellogg: Without giving some guidance on /how/ to process @vocab, nothing will happen. We should have text indicating /what/ should be in the doc pointed to by @vocab with simple processing rules.

14:58:12 <gkellogg> A potential issue with multiple @vocab definitions is that each sub-graph needs to be processed using different rules.

Gregg Kellogg: A potential issue with multiple @vocab definitions is that each sub-graph needs to be processed using different rules.

14:59:27 <tomayac> manu1: we would have almost the same functionality covered by @profile and @vocab if we did 'may post-process' for both of them. We only need one solution. Both allow vocabulary mixing.

Manu Sporny: we would have almost the same functionality covered by @profile and @vocab if we did 'may post-process' for both of them. We only need one solution. Both allow vocabulary mixing.

14:59:40 <lindstream> q+

Niklas Lindström: q+

15:00:15 <tomayac> shanem: you can declare prefix mappings, this wouldn't be possible in a post-process world

Shane McCarron: you can declare prefix mappings, this wouldn't be possible in a post-process world

15:00:15 <tomayac> manu1: That is true - we would have to ensure that @prefix allowed one to declare terms.

Manu Sporny: That is true - we would have to ensure that @prefix allowed one to declare terms.

15:01:19 <manu1> ack lindstream

Manu Sporny: ack lindstream

15:02:12 <manu1> PROPOSAL: Remove @profile feature from the RDFa Core specification with the caveat that the issue will be re-opened if ePub, OpenDoc, IPTC, or other communities have an issue with its removal.

PROPOSED: Remove @profile feature from the RDFa Core specification with the caveat that the issue will be re-opened if ePub, OpenDoc, IPTC, or other communities have an issue with its removal.

15:02:37 <Knud> +1

Knud Möller: +1

15:02:39 <tomayac> +1

+1

15:02:41 <manu1> +1

Manu Sporny: +1

15:02:41 <lindstream> +1

Niklas Lindström: +1

15:02:42 <gkellogg> +1

Gregg Kellogg: +1

15:02:49 <MacTed> +1

Ted Thibodeau: +1

15:02:52 <scor> +1 for removal

Stéphane Corlosquet: +1 for removal

15:02:57 <bergie> +1

Henri Bergius: +1

15:03:02 <ShaneM> +1

Shane McCarron: +1

15:03:10 <manu1> RESOLVED: Remove @profile feature from the RDFa Core specification with the caveat that the issue will be re-opened if ePub, OpenDoc, IPTC, or other communities have an issue with its removal.

RESOLVED: Remove @profile feature from the RDFa Core specification with the caveat that the issue will be re-opened if ePub, OpenDoc, IPTC, or other communities have an issue with its removal.

15:03:23 <Zakim> -bergie

Zakim IRC Bot: -bergie

15:03:25 <Zakim> -MacTed

Zakim IRC Bot: -MacTed

15:03:27 <Zakim> -gkellogg

Zakim IRC Bot: -gkellogg

15:03:28 <Zakim> -Knud

Zakim IRC Bot: -Knud

15:03:33 <Zakim> -tomayac

Zakim IRC Bot: -tomayac

15:03:37 <Zakim> -scor

Zakim IRC Bot: -scor

15:10:03 <tomayac> rrsagent, draft minutes

(No events recorded for 6 minutes)

rrsagent, draft minutes

15:10:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/28-rdfa-minutes.html tomayac

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/28-rdfa-minutes.html tomayac

15:11:14 <tomayac> zakim, bye

zakim, bye

15:11:14 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were lindstream, manu1, gkellogg, MacTed, +1.781.866.aaaa, +3539149aabb, +358.405.25aacc, Knud, bergie, scor, tomayac, ShaneM

Zakim IRC Bot: leaving. As of this point the attendees were lindstream, manu1, gkellogg, MacTed, +1.781.866.aaaa, +3539149aabb, +358.405.25aacc, Knud, bergie, scor, tomayac, ShaneM

15:11:22 <tomayac> rrsagent, draft minutes

rrsagent, draft minutes

15:11:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/28-rdfa-minutes.html tomayac

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/28-rdfa-minutes.html tomayac



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