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RDF Web Applications Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 21 April 2011

Agenda
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2011Apr/0105.html
Present
Ivan Herman, Ted Thibodeau, Steven Pemberton, Nathan Rixham, Manu Sporny, Knud Möller, Benjamin Adrian, Thomas Steiner
Chair
Manu Sporny
Scribe
Manu Sporny
IRC Log
Original
Resolutions

None.

Topics
13:19:52 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/04/21-rdfa-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/04/21-rdfa-irc

13:19:54 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world

13:19:56 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7332

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 7332

13:19:56 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start in 41 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start in 41 minutes

13:19:57 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Web Applications Working Group Teleconference
13:19:57 <trackbot> Date: 21 April 2011
13:47:10 <manu1> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2011Apr/0105.html
13:47:39 <manu1> Chair: Manu
13:48:16 <manu1> Present: Ivan, Ted, Steven, Nathan, Manu, Knud, Benjamin, Thomas
13:59:56 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has now started

(No events recorded for 40 minutes)

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFa()10:00AM has now started

14:00:03 <Zakim> +Knud

Zakim IRC Bot: +Knud

14:00:24 <Knud> zakim, mute me

Knud Möller: zakim, mute me

14:00:24 <Zakim> sorry, Knud, muting is not permitted when only one person is present

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, Knud, muting is not permitted when only one person is present

14:00:48 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software

Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software

14:01:00 <Zakim> +??P9

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P9

14:01:03 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

14:01:03 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it

14:01:11 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip

Ivan Herman: zakim, dial ivan-voip

14:01:11 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made

14:01:12 <Zakim> +Ivan

Zakim IRC Bot: +Ivan

14:01:13 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

14:01:13 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted

14:01:26 <manu1> zakim, ??P9 is me

Manu Sporny: zakim, ??P9 is me

14:01:26 <Zakim> +manu1; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +manu1; got it

14:02:58 <Knud> zakim, mute me

Knud Möller: zakim, mute me

14:02:58 <Zakim> Knud should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Knud should now be muted

14:03:37 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-office

Steven Pemberton: zakim, dial steven-office

14:03:37 <Zakim> I am sorry, Steven; I do not know a number for steven-office

Zakim IRC Bot: I am sorry, Steven; I do not know a number for steven-office

14:03:47 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-work

Steven Pemberton: zakim, dial steven-work

14:03:47 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven; the call is being made

14:03:48 <Zakim> +Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: +Steven

14:04:23 <Steven> zakim, who is here?

Steven Pemberton: zakim, who is here?

14:04:23 <Zakim> On the phone I see Knud (muted), MacTed (muted), manu1, Ivan, Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Knud (muted), MacTed (muted), manu1, Ivan, Steven

14:04:24 <Zakim> On IRC I see Knud, Benjamin, Steven, MacTed, Zakim, RRSAgent, ivan, danbri, webr3, manu1, manu, trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see Knud, Benjamin, Steven, MacTed, Zakim, RRSAgent, ivan, danbri, webr3, manu1, manu, trackbot

14:05:38 <Zakim> +tomayac

Zakim IRC Bot: +tomayac

14:06:35 <Zakim> -Knud

Zakim IRC Bot: -Knud

14:06:57 <manu1> scribe: manu1

(Scribe set to Manu Sporny)

14:07:13 <Zakim> + +49.630.138.9.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: + +49.630.138.9.aaaa

14:07:14 <Zakim> +Knud

Zakim IRC Bot: +Knud

14:07:16 <manu1> Topic: F2F at TPAC

1. F2F at TPAC

14:07:21 <Knud> zakim, mute me

Knud Möller: zakim, mute me

14:07:21 <Zakim> Knud should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Knud should now be muted

14:07:37 <Benjamin> zakim, I am aaaa

Benjamin Adrian: zakim, I am aaaa

14:07:37 <Zakim> +Benjamin; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Benjamin; got it

14:07:57 <manu1> Ivan: The charter doesn't say that we need to have a F2F, but I wonder if we could do one at TPAC?

Ivan Herman: The charter doesn't say that we need to have a F2F, but I wonder if we could do one at TPAC?

14:08:06 <tomayac> zakim, who is on the phone?

Thomas Steiner: zakim, who is on the phone?

14:08:06 <Zakim> On the phone I see MacTed (muted), manu1, Ivan, Steven, tomayac, Benjamin, Knud (muted)

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see MacTed (muted), manu1, Ivan, Steven, tomayac, Benjamin, Knud (muted)

14:08:23 <manu1> Ivan: TPAC is the week of October 31st

Ivan Herman: TPAC is the week of October 31st

14:08:44 <manu1> Ivan: We have lots of F2F meetings there - it would be nice because there will be lots of HTML5 and WebApps folks there.

Ivan Herman: We have lots of F2F meetings there - it would be nice because there will be lots of HTML5 and WebApps folks there.

14:09:02 <manu1> Ivan: I think it would be a great opportunity, perhaps the only one, where this group could have discussion w/ those folks.

Ivan Herman: I think it would be a great opportunity, perhaps the only one, where this group could have discussion w/ those folks.

14:09:07 <Knud> Ivan: in St. Clara, CA

Ivan Herman: in St. Clara, CA [ Scribe Assist by Knud Möller ]

14:09:18 <tomayac> +1 for ivan proposition!

Thomas Steiner: +1 for ivan proposition!

14:09:21 <manu1> Ivan: Would be good to have some people there.

Ivan Herman: Would be good to have some people there.

14:09:39 <manu1> Manu: Sounds like a good idea

Manu Sporny: Sounds like a good idea

14:09:51 <manu1> Ivan: I can make it

Ivan Herman: I can make it

14:09:55 <manu1> Steven: I may be able to make it.

Steven Pemberton: I may be able to make it.

14:10:13 <Knud> I would love to, but find it unlikely that I'll have funding for it

Knud Möller: I would love to, but find it unlikely that I'll have funding for it

14:10:18 <manu1> Tom: I think I'll be there.

Thomas Steiner: I think I'll be there.

14:10:32 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me

14:10:32 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted

14:11:03 <manu1> Ted: It's possible that I may be able to make it.

Ted Thibodeau: It's possible that I may be able to make it.

14:11:19 <Zakim> +??P31

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P31

14:11:22 <manu1> Ivan: We might also have the RDB2RDF WG having a meeting there as well.

Ivan Herman: We might also have the RDB2RDF WG having a meeting there as well.

14:11:24 <webr3> Zakim, i am ??p31

Nathan Rixham: Zakim, i am ??p31

14:11:24 <Zakim> +webr3; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +webr3; got it

14:11:29 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

14:11:30 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted

14:11:32 <manu1> Ivan: RDF WG is still pending.

Ivan Herman: RDF WG is still pending.

14:11:51 <manu1> Ivan: Registration deadline is April 30th - a little more than a week.

Ivan Herman: Registration deadline is April 30th - a little more than a week.

14:12:02 <manu1> Ivan: Maybe we can poll the group on e-mail and have a final decision.

Ivan Herman: Maybe we can poll the group on e-mail and have a final decision.

14:12:43 <manu1> Manu: I think having 4-5 people there would be a good turnout.

Manu Sporny: I think having 4-5 people there would be a good turnout.

14:13:59 <manu1> Manu: If we time it correctly, it would be right before we enter LC with the API docs.

Manu Sporny: If we time it correctly, it would be right before we enter LC with the API docs.

14:14:13 <manu1> Topic: Update on changes to the RDF API

2. Update on changes to the RDF API

14:14:44 <Benjamin> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/sources/rdf-api/Overview-src.html

Benjamin Adrian: http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/sources/rdf-api/Overview-src.html

14:15:06 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+

14:15:20 <manu1> Nathan: I've made the changes I sent to the group - changed 'term' to be 'alias' - removed the 'base' functionality from profile

Nathan Rixham: I've made the changes I sent to the group - changed 'term' to be 'alias' - removed the 'base' functionality from profile

14:15:59 <manu1> Nathan: Removed 'import from graph' - constraint on prefixes/terms as valid NCNames has been removed.

Nathan Rixham: Removed 'import from graph' - constraint on prefixes/terms as valid NCNames has been removed.

14:16:24 <manu1> Nathan: a prefix is a string that doesn't have any whitespace - so is a term - you can distinguish between term/prefix - CURIEs have a colon in them

Nathan Rixham: a prefix is a string that doesn't have any whitespace - so is a term - you can distinguish between term/prefix - CURIEs have a colon in them

14:17:29 <manu1> Benjamin: I changed the document - extended the abstract, wrote an introduction, similar to the RDFa API - I added a "design considerations" section, changed the concept stack a bit - described some goals of the API

Benjamin Adrian: I changed the document - extended the abstract, wrote an introduction, similar to the RDFa API - I added a "design considerations" section, changed the concept stack a bit - described some goals of the API

14:18:19 <manu1> Benjamin: Need to talk w/ Nathan a bit on this - wrote examples and use cases - wrote 3 examples - described them using text - I wanted to make a JavaScript code example for the first example, but for the last two, I was missing functionality

Benjamin Adrian: Need to talk w/ Nathan a bit on this - wrote examples and use cases - wrote 3 examples - described them using text - I wanted to make a JavaScript code example for the first example, but for the last two, I was missing functionality

14:18:44 <manu1> Benjamin: The persistence of a graph within a single HTTP request - don't know if you can take a graph w/ you across multiple HTTP requests.

Benjamin Adrian: The persistence of a graph within a single HTTP request - don't know if you can take a graph w/ you across multiple HTTP requests.

14:19:16 <manu1> Benjamin: At the moment, we cannot access remote SPARQL endpoints via "DESCRIBE" or "CONSTRUCT" queries - seems like something we'd want to have in there.

Benjamin Adrian: At the moment, we cannot access remote SPARQL endpoints via "DESCRIBE" or "CONSTRUCT" queries - seems like something we'd want to have in there.

14:20:27 <webr3> there is the vocabulary with a property in it, "rdfa:term"

Nathan Rixham: there is the vocabulary with a property in it, "rdfa:term"

14:20:53 <manu1> Ivan: This is a minor comment - read the minutes on the issue of 'term' - don't have an issue calling it 'alias' in the API - do we want to have this terminology the same across all documents?

Ivan Herman: This is a minor comment - read the minutes on the issue of 'term' - don't have an issue calling it 'alias' in the API - do we want to have this terminology the same across all documents?

14:21:04 <manu1> Manu: We'd make the change across all documents.

Manu Sporny: We'd make the change across all documents.

14:21:44 <manu1> Ivan: This may be a painful change...

Ivan Herman: This may be a painful change...

14:21:53 <Zakim> -Benjamin

Zakim IRC Bot: -Benjamin

14:22:40 <Zakim> +Benjamin

Zakim IRC Bot: +Benjamin

14:22:55 <manu1> Manu: Well, we haven't had the discussion yet.

Manu Sporny: Well, we haven't had the discussion yet.

14:22:59 <webr3> that's my understanding too - generally it was "put it in the API document and we can discuss for core, if there's an issue then raise it on RDF API to turn it back to "term"

Nathan Rixham: that's my understanding too - generally it was "put it in the API document and we can discuss for core, if there's an issue then raise it on RDF API to turn it back to "term"

14:23:03 <manu1> Ivan: I would prefer not to make the change at this time.

Ivan Herman: I would prefer not to make the change at this time.

14:23:26 <manu1> Manu: Would you like the name to change from 'alias' back to 'term'.

Manu Sporny: Would you like the name to change from 'alias' back to 'term'.

14:23:43 <manu1> Nathan: That would be fine to change it back.

Nathan Rixham: That would be fine to change it back.

14:24:22 <manu1> Ivan: I wanted to understand Benjamin's comment - remote SPARQL stuff is a URI - from a parser point of view - it's a URI that will return RDF/XML that the parser will parse - what's the issue here?

Ivan Herman: I wanted to understand Benjamin's comment - remote SPARQL stuff is a URI - from a parser point of view - it's a URI that will return RDF/XML that the parser will parse - what's the issue here?

14:24:50 <manu1> Benjamin: It's not complicated to implement - but we should have a convenience method to the API - a method that performs a SPARQL query and returns a graph in our implementation.

Benjamin Adrian: It's not complicated to implement - but we should have a convenience method to the API - a method that performs a SPARQL query and returns a graph in our implementation.

14:25:36 <manu1> Ivan: Ah ok - it may be worth noting that LeeF has a small JavaScript library that is an interface to a SPARQL endpoint - you give a SPARQL query and it'll do all of the machinations to create a SPARQL query URL.

Ivan Herman: Ah ok - it may be worth noting that LeeF has a small JavaScript library that is an interface to a SPARQL endpoint - you give a SPARQL query and it'll do all of the machinations to create a SPARQL query URL.

14:25:38 <manu1> q+

q+

14:25:40 <manu1> ack ivan

ack ivan

14:25:51 <manu1> ack manu

ack manu

14:25:55 <webr3> q+ to say unsure it even needs to be in the api, that's a layer above

Nathan Rixham: q+ to say unsure it even needs to be in the api, that's a layer above

14:26:31 <manu1> ack webr3

ack webr3

14:26:31 <Zakim> webr3, you wanted to say unsure it even needs to be in the api, that's a layer above

Zakim IRC Bot: webr3, you wanted to say unsure it even needs to be in the api, that's a layer above

14:26:43 <manu1> Manu: I'm not sure if this is in scope for the RDF API...

Manu Sporny: I'm not sure if this is in scope for the RDF API...

14:26:56 <tomayac> the lib is called sparql.js: http://thefigtrees.net/lee/sw/sparql.js

Thomas Steiner: the lib is called sparql.js: http://thefigtrees.net/lee/sw/sparql.js

14:27:02 <ivan> -> http://thefigtrees.net/lee/sw/sparql.js Lee's liobrary

Ivan Herman: -> http://thefigtrees.net/lee/sw/sparql.js Lee's liobrary

14:27:11 <manu1> Nathan: It seems that whatever that is returned back is RDF in some form, so it's the job of a parser to parse it.

Nathan Rixham: It seems that whatever that is returned back is RDF in some form, so it's the job of a parser to parse it.

14:27:43 <manu1> Nathan: originally, parse() was left unconstrained - implementation detail on whether or not you allow remote graphs to be loaded.

Nathan Rixham: originally, parse() was left unconstrained - implementation detail on whether or not you allow remote graphs to be loaded.

14:28:03 <Benjamin> q+

Benjamin Adrian: q+

14:28:13 <manu1> Nathan: There is no reason why you couldn't have a SPARQL parser - the first parameter could be a SPARQL query or a URI.

Nathan Rixham: There is no reason why you couldn't have a SPARQL parser - the first parameter could be a SPARQL query or a URI.

14:28:19 <manu1> ack Benjamin

ack Benjamin

14:28:49 <manu1> Benjamin: I think an experienced developer would end up needing a SPARQL convenience mechanism... it's small, it would be good to have it.

Benjamin Adrian: I think an experienced developer would end up needing a SPARQL convenience mechanism... it's small, it would be good to have it.

14:29:05 <manu1> Ivan: I think we should look at Lee's JavaScript and see what he did.

Ivan Herman: I think we should look at Lee's JavaScript and see what he did.

14:29:35 <webr3> this is a scoping thing we need to discuss then, because it went from a nice friendly linked data api, down to two apis (rdfa and rdf) and then to a very core api focussed on rdf library developers, and on interop between - not an end user api

Nathan Rixham: this is a scoping thing we need to discuss then, because it went from a nice friendly linked data api, down to two apis (rdfa and rdf) and then to a very core api focussed on rdf library developers, and on interop between - not an end user api

14:30:06 <manu1> Ivan: I'm a bit unclear if we could just provide an example library for doing SPARQL queries.

Ivan Herman: I'm a bit unclear if we could just provide an example library for doing SPARQL queries.

14:30:12 <tomayac> there's also spark by denny vrandecic et al: http://km.aifb.kit.edu/sites/spark/docs/

Thomas Steiner: there's also spark by denny vrandecic et al: http://km.aifb.kit.edu/sites/spark/docs/

14:31:08 <manu1> Ivan: Do we have a query mechanism in RDF API?

Ivan Herman: Do we have a query mechanism in RDF API?

14:31:12 <webr3> rdfa yes

Nathan Rixham: rdfa yes

14:31:15 <webr3> rdf no

Nathan Rixham: rdf no

14:31:20 <manu1> Nathan: You can reduce a set of triples down to a subset.

Nathan Rixham: You can reduce a set of triples down to a subset.

14:31:32 <manu1> Nathan: ... but there is no query() mechanism yet.

Nathan Rixham: ... but there is no query() mechanism yet.

14:31:53 <manu1> Nathan: This document has changed to be a very core API - tailored toward library implementers.

Nathan Rixham: This document has changed to be a very core API - tailored toward library implementers.

14:32:25 <manu1> Nathan: The end-user APIs are up to the libraries themselves.

Nathan Rixham: The end-user APIs are up to the libraries themselves.

14:32:51 <manu1> Nathan: We allow others to innovate on top of the RDF API

Nathan Rixham: We allow others to innovate on top of the RDF API

14:33:10 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+

14:33:20 <manu1> Nathan: We need to decide on a single viewpoint of where we are headed with the RDF API.

Nathan Rixham: We need to decide on a single viewpoint of where we are headed with the RDF API.

14:33:37 <manu1> Ivan: I agree w/ Nathan - the RDF API is the core stuff - that's the layer we're working with.

Ivan Herman: I agree w/ Nathan - the RDF API is the core stuff - that's the layer we're working with.

14:33:53 <manu1> Ivan: We have the RDFa API... there may be something in the middle that is missing.

Ivan Herman: We have the RDFa API... there may be something in the middle that is missing.

14:34:07 <manu1> Ivan: Maybe Nathan is saying that we leave the stuff in the middle to the community - we don't design it.

Ivan Herman: Maybe Nathan is saying that we leave the stuff in the middle to the community - we don't design it.

14:34:10 <webr3> q+

Nathan Rixham: q+

14:34:27 <manu1> Ivan: Perhaps we want to standardize it if we find something useful... I don't think we should do SPARQL query interface.

Ivan Herman: Perhaps we want to standardize it if we find something useful... I don't think we should do SPARQL query interface.

14:34:29 <manu1> ack ivan

ack ivan

14:34:47 <manu1> Ivan: I think people will build the SPARQL query interfaces - I'd like to take stuff like Projections out of the RDFa API

Ivan Herman: I think people will build the SPARQL query interfaces - I'd like to take stuff like Projections out of the RDFa API

14:35:28 <Benjamin> q+ to discuss the possibility to carry triples in a Graph along multiple HTTP Requests

Benjamin Adrian: q+ to discuss the possibility to carry triples in a Graph along multiple HTTP Requests

14:35:28 <manu1> Ivan: until now, I didn't think about SPARQL and queries... let's postpone the issue until we have a more thorough discussion about what exactly the core RDF API is doing.

Ivan Herman: until now, I didn't think about SPARQL and queries... let's postpone the issue until we have a more thorough discussion about what exactly the core RDF API is doing.

14:35:46 <manu1> ISSUE: Should the RDF API have a query() mechanism that is capable of loading remote documents.

ISSUE: Should the RDF API have a query() mechanism that is capable of loading remote documents.

14:35:46 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-91 - Should the RDF API have a query() mechanism that is capable of loading remote documents. ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/91/edit .

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ISSUE-91 - Should the RDF API have a query() mechanism that is capable of loading remote documents. ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/91/edit .

14:35:59 <manu1> ISSUE: Should the RDF API support SPARQL?

ISSUE: Should the RDF API support SPARQL?

14:36:00 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-92 - Should the RDF API support SPARQL? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/92/edit .

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ISSUE-92 - Should the RDF API support SPARQL? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/92/edit .

14:36:06 <manu1> ack webr3

ack webr3

14:36:40 <manu1> Nathan: I agree w/ Ivan - we need 3 different layers of API - if we do anything else in the middle, it may pollute the RDFa API

Nathan Rixham: I agree w/ Ivan - we need 3 different layers of API - if we do anything else in the middle, it may pollute the RDFa API

14:37:19 <manu1> Nathan: We may end up merging complex implementation stuff into the RDFa API - it might become a mess over time.

Nathan Rixham: We may end up merging complex implementation stuff into the RDFa API - it might become a mess over time.

14:37:23 <manu1> Ivan: I fully agree

Ivan Herman: I fully agree

14:37:29 <manu1> ack Benjamin

ack Benjamin

14:37:29 <Zakim> Benjamin, you wanted to discuss the possibility to carry triples in a Graph along multiple HTTP Requests

Zakim IRC Bot: Benjamin, you wanted to discuss the possibility to carry triples in a Graph along multiple HTTP Requests

14:37:41 <manu1> Benjamin: Yes, I see your point

Benjamin Adrian: Yes, I see your point

14:38:00 <manu1> Benjamin: How do you carry triples as you go from page to page?

Benjamin Adrian: How do you carry triples as you go from page to page?

14:38:21 <webr3> shall I?

Nathan Rixham: shall I?

14:38:27 <manu1> Manu: Are we talking about a persistent triple store?

Manu Sporny: Are we talking about a persistent triple store?

14:38:30 <manu1> Benjamin: Yes

Benjamin Adrian: Yes

14:38:50 <manu1> Manu: So having a set of triples that follows you from Google, to Facebook, to Twitter.

Manu Sporny: So having a set of triples that follows you from Google, to Facebook, to Twitter.

14:39:32 <manu1> Ivan: There is an abstraction of a store - implementations may have different stores - by default you get an in-memory store, which can be piggybacked on top of a SQLite database... in Jena, that's up to the implementations.

Ivan Herman: There is an abstraction of a store - implementations may have different stores - by default you get an in-memory store, which can be piggybacked on top of a SQLite database... in Jena, that's up to the implementations.

14:39:44 <webr3> reference to old mail on topic: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2010Nov/0029.html

Nathan Rixham: reference to old mail on topic: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2010Nov/0029.html

14:40:03 <manu1> Ivan: It seems that this is up to the RDF Store... as far as the API goes, it may be what we want to define - the implementation may define something on top of the RDF API

Ivan Herman: It seems that this is up to the RDF Store... as far as the API goes, it may be what we want to define - the implementation may define something on top of the RDF API

14:40:11 <manu1> Ivan: This is not something that the API has to define.

Ivan Herman: This is not something that the API has to define.

14:40:34 <Benjamin> q+

Benjamin Adrian: q+

14:40:42 <webr3> q+ too :)

Nathan Rixham: q+ too :)

14:40:54 <manu1> Ivan: Clarification - the implementation could create a /type/ of store - persistent or in-memory.

Ivan Herman: Clarification - the implementation could create a /type/ of store - persistent or in-memory.

14:41:15 <manu1> Benjamin: What if we make it specific - you can ask for a persistent store.

Benjamin Adrian: What if we make it specific - you can ask for a persistent store.

14:41:23 <manu1> ack Benjamin

ack Benjamin

14:41:28 <manu1> ack too

ack too

14:41:28 <Zakim> too, you wanted to say )

Zakim IRC Bot: too, you wanted to say )

14:41:45 <manu1> Ivan: That makes the implementations much more complicated.

Ivan Herman: That makes the implementations much more complicated.

14:41:55 <manu1> Benjamin: Yes, but it's very useful.

Benjamin Adrian: Yes, but it's very useful.

14:41:59 <webr3> q+

Nathan Rixham: q+

14:42:55 <manu1> Manu: You wouldn't be able to do a full implementation of the RDF API in pure JavaScript if we required persistence.

Manu Sporny: You wouldn't be able to do a full implementation of the RDF API in pure JavaScript if we required persistence.

14:44:02 <manu1> Nathan: We have multiple types of stores - persistent via IndexDB, named graph stores, etc. that can be implemented.

Nathan Rixham: We have multiple types of stores - persistent via IndexDB, named graph stores, etc. that can be implemented.

14:44:52 <manu1> Nathan: Many different people w/ do it in many different ways... any interface that we define will not cover all of the use cases out there

Nathan Rixham: Many different people w/ do it in many different ways... any interface that we define will not cover all of the use cases out there

14:45:01 <manu1> Nathan: Persistent storage is out of scope for what we're doing.

Nathan Rixham: Persistent storage is out of scope for what we're doing.

14:46:20 <manu1> ISSUE: Should the RDF API support persistent storage?

ISSUE: Should the RDF API support persistent storage?

14:46:20 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-93 - Should the RDF API support persistent storage? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/93/edit .

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ISSUE-93 - Should the RDF API support persistent storage? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/93/edit .

14:48:06 <webr3> optional ?

Nathan Rixham: optional ?

14:48:08 <webr3> ?

Nathan Rixham: ?

14:48:49 <webr3> yes its in

Nathan Rixham: yes its in

14:48:57 <webr3> triple = ( node node node )

Nathan Rixham: triple = ( node node node )

14:49:00 <manu1> Nathan: There are a few bugs that I'd like to fix up.

Nathan Rixham: There are a few bugs that I'd like to fix up.

14:49:05 <manu1> Nathan: before publication.

Nathan Rixham: before publication.

14:49:26 <manu1> Topic: RDF API Pure Graph Triples and Graph Literals

3. RDF API Pure Graph Triples and Graph Literals

14:49:53 <webr3> is the topic: graph literal, or subjects as literals etc too?

Nathan Rixham: is the topic: graph literal, or subjects as literals etc too?

14:51:12 <manu1> Manu: There are two issues: The first is that the RDF API allows literals in the subject and the predicate position - the API is generic and doesn't constrain graphs to the point that the RDF Concepts document does. The second is that we use the term "Graph Literal" when the RDF WG has had lots of conversations about what this term might be called and we do not want to seems as if we're making a decision before they figure out the proper name for this concept.

Manu Sporny: There are two issues: The first is that the RDF API allows literals in the subject and the predicate position - the API is generic and doesn't constrain graphs to the point that the RDF Concepts document does. The second is that we use the term "Graph Literal" when the RDF WG has had lots of conversations about what this term might be called and we do not want to seems as if we're making a decision before they figure out the proper name for this concept.

14:51:25 <webr3> see - http://jena.sourceforge.net/javadoc/com/hp/hpl/jena/graph/Triple.html

Nathan Rixham: see - http://jena.sourceforge.net/javadoc/com/hp/hpl/jena/graph/Triple.html

14:51:37 <manu1> Ivan: The point is that we have restrictions in RDF... Graph Literals are a very different thing.

Ivan Herman: The point is that we have restrictions in RDF... Graph Literals are a very different thing.

14:51:57 <webr3> q+

Nathan Rixham: q+

14:52:13 <manu1> Ivan: I'm uneasy - this is an API on what the RDF standard is... it allows /more/ than RDF - it's a little strange.

Ivan Herman: I'm uneasy - this is an API on what the RDF standard is... it allows /more/ than RDF - it's a little strange.

14:52:31 <manu1> Ivan: I don't think we should go beyond RDF with this spec.

Ivan Herman: I don't think we should go beyond RDF with this spec.

14:52:49 <manu1> Nathan: My main concern is that if we constrain the interface to match RDF, we will never have a compliant implementation.

Nathan Rixham: My main concern is that if we constrain the interface to match RDF, we will never have a compliant implementation.

14:52:59 <manu1> Nathan: I think most everybody will be more general with it.

Nathan Rixham: I think most everybody will be more general with it.

14:53:30 <manu1> Ivan: RDFlib implemented what RDF requires... they do optimization w/ the literals.

Ivan Herman: RDFlib implemented what RDF requires... they do optimization w/ the literals.

14:55:30 <Benjamin> q+

Benjamin Adrian: q+

14:55:35 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+

14:55:39 <webr3> "why do you want to force me not to have a literal in the subject position, in my own code, in my library, behind the interface?"

Nathan Rixham: "why do you want to force me not to have a literal in the subject position, in my own code, in my library, behind the interface?"

14:55:41 <webr3> ack webr3

Nathan Rixham: ack webr3

14:55:50 <manu1> ack webr3

ack webr3

14:56:00 <manu1> Manu: There is no reason to constrain the RDF API.

Manu Sporny: There is no reason to constrain the RDF API.

14:56:06 <manu1> Manu: ... that is the model.

Manu Sporny: ... that is the model.

14:56:27 <manu1> Benjamin: If we are going to generalize, we should talk about why we're doing it... It was very difficult to get into the API by just reading the WebIDL - it's very generic.

Benjamin Adrian: If we are going to generalize, we should talk about why we're doing it... It was very difficult to get into the API by just reading the WebIDL - it's very generic.

14:56:37 <webr3> q+ to mention a minor detail..

Nathan Rixham: q+ to mention a minor detail..

14:56:44 <ivan> ack Benjamin

Ivan Herman: ack Benjamin

14:57:57 <manu1> q+ to describe "literal as predicate"

q+ to describe "literal as predicate"

14:58:27 <manu1> Ivan: This is not clear that people want literals as predicates, not clear that people want a generic mechanism.

Ivan Herman: This is not clear that people want literals as predicates, not clear that people want a generic mechanism.

14:59:10 <manu1> Ivan: It's up to implementations to implement in a more generic way, the RDF API should constrain that - what we define is not an RDF API if we allow generic mechanisms like this - it's RDF+

Ivan Herman: It's up to implementations to implement in a more generic way, the RDF API should constrain that - what we define is not an RDF API if we allow generic mechanisms like this - it's RDF+

14:59:28 <manu1> Ivan: We are not doing this API work in isolation.

Ivan Herman: We are not doing this API work in isolation.

14:59:51 <manu1> Nathan: These were added after TimBL requested this generalized graph interface as well as Thomas Roessler

Nathan Rixham: These were added after TimBL requested this generalized graph interface as well as Thomas Roessler

15:00:22 <manu1> Nathan: When we discussed this, we decided to keep it in the API as long as possible to see if there was major push back from the community - if there was major pushback, we can take it out... if not, we leave it in.

Nathan Rixham: When we discussed this, we decided to keep it in the API as long as possible to see if there was major push back from the community - if there was major pushback, we can take it out... if not, we leave it in.

15:00:34 <manu1> ack webr3

ack webr3

15:00:34 <Zakim> webr3, you wanted to mention a minor detail..

Zakim IRC Bot: webr3, you wanted to mention a minor detail..

15:00:38 <manu1> ack ivan

ack ivan

15:01:18 <webr3> ahh yes, "meaning" we're not working with meaning we're working with triples etc, meaning is added via interpretation, so who cares what it means in RDF.

Nathan Rixham: ahh yes, "meaning" we're not working with meaning we're working with triples etc, meaning is added via interpretation, so who cares what it means in RDF.

15:01:40 <webr3> and.. if RDF or RDF2 is make more generic in the future, why shouldn't this API be compatible? (and n3 compat)

Nathan Rixham: and.. if RDF or RDF2 is made more generic in the future, why shouldn't this API be compatible? (and n3 compat)

15:01:47 <webr3> s/make/made
15:02:09 <manu1> Ivan: So, I would certainly be opposed to have these documents be published and have these additional things be a part of a document as a part of a simple matter of fact... what we could do as a compromise is we could publish in present state and put big issue markers in the document stating whether or not we should go beyond RDF or not - something that the WG is not consensus on - we need...

Ivan Herman: So, I would certainly be opposed to have these documents be published and have these additional things be a part of a document as a part of a simple matter of fact... what we could do as a compromise is we could publish in present state and put big issue markers in the document stating whether or not we should go beyond RDF or not - something that the WG is not consensus on - we need...

15:02:11 <manu1> ...feedback. Or, we could remove it and put in an issue and a note.... we need feedback.

...feedback. Or, we could remove it and put in an issue and a note.... we need feedback.

15:02:18 <manu1> Ivan: We should discuss this with RDF WG.

Ivan Herman: We should discuss this with RDF WG.

15:02:21 <manu1> q+

q+

15:02:39 <manu1> Ivan: I don't know how I would explain in the RDF API document to have something that goes beyond RDF.

Ivan Herman: I don't know how I would explain in the RDF API document to have something that goes beyond RDF.

15:02:44 <manu1> ack manu

ack manu

15:02:47 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to describe "literal as predicate" and to

Zakim IRC Bot: manu, you wanted to describe "literal as predicate" and to

15:03:30 <webr3> Ivan, pfps also said the same, but didn't object just said "can you change it so it doesn't say interface for the "RDF concepts", change that intro sentence and he'd be happy "interfaces for working with RDF" or such like

Nathan Rixham: Ivan, pfps also said the same, but didn't object just said "can you change it so it doesn't say interface for the "RDF concepts", change that intro sentence and he'd be happy "interfaces for working with RDF" or such like

15:04:58 <webr3> s/GraphLiteral/TripleSet ?

Nathan Rixham: s/GraphLiteral/TripleSet ? (warning: replacement failed)

15:05:48 <manu1> Manu: I would like to use this to trigger a discussion in the RDF community.

Manu Sporny: I would like to use this to trigger a discussion in the RDF community.

15:06:15 <webr3> q+

Nathan Rixham: q+

15:06:36 <Benjamin> q+

Benjamin Adrian: q+

15:06:37 <manu1> Ivan: I don't think we should go there - let's not provoke another group by coming out with a draft that coins the term "GraphLiteral"

Ivan Herman: I don't think we should go there - let's not provoke another group by coming out with a draft that coins the term "GraphLiteral"

15:06:40 <manu1> ack webr3

ack webr3

15:07:09 <manu1> Nathan: Can we do a quick straw poll - who would object to generalized triples - who would object to GraphLiteral.

Nathan Rixham: Can we do a quick straw poll - who would object to generalized triples - who would object to GraphLiteral.

15:07:31 <manu1> ack Benjamin

ack Benjamin

15:07:57 <manu1> Benjamin: I think what matters is what we can accomplish w/ the API - we are discussing functionality w/o use cases.

Benjamin Adrian: I think what matters is what we can accomplish w/ the API - we are discussing functionality w/o use cases.

15:07:59 <MacTed> +1

Ted Thibodeau: +1

15:08:32 <MacTed> use cases drive features ("requirements").  features should not drive use cases.

Ted Thibodeau: use cases drive features ("requirements"). features should not drive use cases.

15:09:21 <webr3> primary use cases were the same interfaces being able to be used by reasoners and sparql implementations and for n3 compat (because you know, one lib will handle all this)

Nathan Rixham: primary use cases were the same interfaces being able to be used by reasoners and sparql implementations and for n3 compat (because you know, one lib will handle all this)

15:11:52 <manu1> Ivan: The problem I have is that we're doing more than RDF. It is very important that the RECs that W3C produces are consistent with one another.

Ivan Herman: The problem I have is that we're doing more than RDF. It is very important that the RECs that W3C produces are consistent with one another.

15:12:08 <webr3> that won't happen though, we know it, for bc reasons

Nathan Rixham: that won't happen though, we know it, for bc reasons

15:12:12 <manu1> Ivan: We need to have this discussion in the RDF WG. We have to be consistent.

Ivan Herman: We need to have this discussion in the RDF WG. We have to be consistent.

15:12:25 <webr3> rdf won't change, out of charter, you told us that already

Nathan Rixham: rdf won't change, out of charter, you told us that already

15:12:32 <webr3> so what's to discuss?

Nathan Rixham: so what's to discuss?

15:13:06 <MacTed> "graph identifier"?

Ted Thibodeau: "graph identifier"?

15:13:28 <manu1> Ivan: This creates huge modelling issues if we allow literals as subjects/predicates.

Ivan Herman: This creates huge modelling issues if we allow literals as subjects/predicates.

15:13:31 <webr3> graoh identifier = name, not set of triples

Nathan Rixham: graph identifier = name, not set of triples

15:13:40 <webr3> s/graoh/graph
15:14:55 <webr3> we had that constrain baked in to interfaces, rather than text

Nathan Rixham: we had that constrain baked in to interfaces, rather than text

15:15:59 <manu1> Ivan: Today, there is a literal that could appear in the subject position...

Ivan Herman: Today, there is a literal that could appear in the subject position...

15:16:03 <manu1> Benjamin: We need to talk about this in the text.

Benjamin Adrian: We need to talk about this in the text.

15:16:33 <webr3> manu: i agree

Manu Sporny: i agree [ Scribe Assist by Nathan Rixham ]

15:17:11 <webr3> okay

Nathan Rixham: okay

15:17:12 <manu1> Ivan: Let's put this into the document and review the document.

Ivan Herman: Let's put this into the document and review the document.

15:17:16 <Benjamin> ok

Benjamin Adrian: ok

15:18:07 <webr3> k

Nathan Rixham: k

15:18:30 <webr3> can i call it "TripleSet" or something?

Nathan Rixham: can i call it "TripleSet" or something?

15:18:49 <Zakim> -Benjamin

Zakim IRC Bot: -Benjamin

15:18:56 <manu1> Manu: Ok, Nathan will make the change to constrain the RDF API to not allow literals as subjects, but keep the IDL generic.

Manu Sporny: Ok, Nathan will make the change to constrain the RDF API to not allow literals as subjects, but keep the IDL generic.

15:19:23 <webr3> "GBox" ?

Nathan Rixham: "GBox" ?

15:19:34 <manu1> Ivan: Let's try to find other terms for Graph stuff...

Ivan Herman: Let's try to find other terms for Graph stuff...

15:19:44 <manu1> Manu: I'm fine w/ GBox - wait for RDF WG to finalize the terms.

Manu Sporny: I'm fine w/ GBox - wait for RDF WG to finalize the terms.

15:19:55 <webr3> "TripleSet"?

Nathan Rixham: "TripleSet"?

15:20:24 <MacTed> links to terminology definitions are wonderful things

Ted Thibodeau: links to terminology definitions are wonderful things

15:20:36 <manu1> Ivan: Don't put in loaded terms... you should put in a note in a document making it clear that the terminology used here is under heavy discussion in the RDF WG.

Ivan Herman: Don't put in loaded terms... you should put in a note in a document making it clear that the terminology used here is under heavy discussion in the RDF WG.

15:20:57 <manu1> Ivan: We should say that we'll use whatever terminology that the RDF WG will want to use.

Ivan Herman: We should say that we'll use whatever terminology that the RDF WG will want to use.

15:21:21 <manu1> Nathan: As long as we say that it is a set of triples...

Nathan Rixham: As long as we say that it is a set of triples...

15:22:06 <webr3> ACTION nathan to generate fpwd draft of RDF API following minutes of today

Nathan Rixham: ACTION nathan to generate fpwd draft of RDF API following minutes of today

15:22:06 <trackbot> Created ACTION-74 - Generate fpwd draft of RDF API following minutes of today [on Nathan Rixham - due 2011-04-28].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-74 - Generate fpwd draft of RDF API following minutes of today [on Nathan Rixham - due 2011-04-28].

15:22:20 <webr3> cheers

Nathan Rixham: cheers

15:22:27 <Zakim> -Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: -Steven

15:22:28 <MacTed> ciao

Ted Thibodeau: ciao

15:22:29 <Zakim> -MacTed

Zakim IRC Bot: -MacTed

15:22:30 <Zakim> -tomayac

Zakim IRC Bot: -tomayac

15:22:30 <Zakim> -Ivan

Zakim IRC Bot: -Ivan

15:22:31 <Zakim> -webr3

Zakim IRC Bot: -webr3

15:22:31 <Zakim> -manu1

Zakim IRC Bot: -manu1

15:22:35 <Zakim> -Knud

Zakim IRC Bot: -Knud

15:22:36 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFa()10:00AM has ended

15:22:38 <Zakim> Attendees were Knud, MacTed, Ivan, manu1, Steven, tomayac, +49.630.138.9.aaaa, Benjamin, webr3

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were Knud, MacTed, Ivan, manu1, Steven, tomayac, +49.630.138.9.aaaa, Benjamin, webr3



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