None.
13:54:23 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/05/06-rdfa-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/05/06-rdfa-irc ←
13:54:27 <manu> trackbot, setup meeting
Manu Sporny: trackbot, setup meeting ←
13:54:27 <trackbot> Sorry, manu, I don't understand 'trackbot, setup meeting'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, manu, I don't understand 'trackbot, setup meeting'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help ←
13:55:51 <ivan> trackbot, prepare telcon
Ivan Herman: trackbot, prepare telcon ←
13:55:53 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world ←
13:55:55 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7332
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 7332 ←
13:55:55 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes ←
13:55:56 <trackbot> Meeting: RDFa Working Group Teleconference
13:55:56 <trackbot> Date: 06 May 2010
13:57:07 <manu> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2010May/0038.html
13:57:12 <manu> Chair: Manu
13:57:34 <manu> Present: Ivan, Knud, MarkB, Toby, Benjamin, Shane, Manu
13:58:25 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has now started
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFa()10:00AM has now started ←
13:58:41 <manu> zakim, code?
Manu Sporny: zakim, code? ←
13:58:41 <Zakim> the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), manu
Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), manu ←
13:58:44 <Zakim> +[MIT528]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[MIT528] ←
13:58:55 <Zakim> +Toby
Zakim IRC Bot: +Toby ←
13:59:02 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
Ivan Herman: zakim, dial ivan-voip ←
13:59:02 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made ←
13:59:03 <Zakim> +Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: +Ivan ←
13:59:06 <Zakim> +??P1
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P1 ←
13:59:07 <tinkster1> zakim, who's making noise?
Toby Inkster: zakim, who's making noise? ←
13:59:08 <manu> zakim, I am ??P1
Manu Sporny: zakim, I am ??P1 ←
13:59:08 <Zakim> +manu; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +manu; got it ←
13:59:18 <Zakim> tinkster1, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P1 (5%)
Zakim IRC Bot: tinkster1, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P1 (5%) ←
13:59:20 <ivan> zakim, who is noisy?
Ivan Herman: zakim, who is noisy? ←
13:59:32 <tinkster1> zakim, mute p1.
Toby Inkster: zakim, mute p1. ←
13:59:32 <Zakim> sorry, tinkster1, I do not know which phone connection belongs to p1
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, tinkster1, I do not know which phone connection belongs to p1 ←
13:59:36 <Zakim> ivan, listening for 14 seconds I could not identify any sounds
Zakim IRC Bot: ivan, listening for 14 seconds I could not identify any sounds ←
13:59:52 <manu> zakim, I am ?P1
Manu Sporny: zakim, I am ?P1 ←
13:59:52 <Zakim> sorry, manu, I do not see a party named '?P1'
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, manu, I do not see a party named '?P1' ←
13:59:59 <manu> zakim, I am ??P1
Manu Sporny: zakim, I am ??P1 ←
13:59:59 <Zakim> sorry, manu, I do not see a party named '??P1'
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, manu, I do not see a party named '??P1' ←
14:00:05 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
Ivan Herman: zakim, who is here? ←
14:00:05 <Zakim> On the phone I see [MIT528] (muted), Toby, Ivan, manu
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see [MIT528] (muted), Toby, Ivan, manu ←
14:00:06 <Zakim> On IRC I see Knud, dongmei, trackbot, RRSAgent, Zakim, Benjamin, manu, tinkster1, markbirbeck, ivan, tinkster
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see Knud, dongmei, trackbot, RRSAgent, Zakim, Benjamin, manu, tinkster1, markbirbeck, ivan, tinkster ←
14:00:12 <Zakim> +Benjamin
Zakim IRC Bot: +Benjamin ←
14:00:23 <manu> zakim, who is on the call?
Manu Sporny: zakim, who is on the call? ←
14:00:23 <Zakim> On the phone I see [MIT528] (muted), Toby, Ivan, manu, Benjamin
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see [MIT528] (muted), Toby, Ivan, manu, Benjamin ←
14:01:07 <Zakim> +Knud
Zakim IRC Bot: +Knud ←
14:01:34 <markbirbeck> zakim, code?
Mark Birbeck: zakim, code? ←
14:01:34 <Zakim> the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck
Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck ←
14:02:07 <Zakim> +ShaneM
Zakim IRC Bot: +ShaneM ←
14:02:15 <Zakim> +markbirbeck
Zakim IRC Bot: +markbirbeck ←
14:07:49 <tinkster> Scribenick: tinkster
(No events recorded for 5 minutes)
(Scribe set to Toby Inkster)
14:07:55 <tinkster> Topic: High-level overview of RDFa DOM API
14:08:16 <manu> http://code.google.com/p/backplanejs/wiki/RdfaDomApi
Manu Sporny: http://code.google.com/p/backplanejs/wiki/RdfaDomApi ←
14:10:43 <tinkster> Manu: we'll be going through Mark's proposals - high level first, then the details.
Manu Sporny: we'll be going through Mark's proposals - high level first, then the details. ←
14:11:25 <tinkster> Mark: apologies to Benjamin and Manu, who have put a lot of work into this, while I've not had time to put my ideas down concretely.
Mark Birbeck: apologies to Benjamin and Manu, who have put a lot of work into this, while I've not had time to put my ideas down concretely. ←
14:12:50 <tinkster> ... Some of the things in my proposal are stuff we could have done with current API quite easily - e.g. using factories for creating objects.
... Some of the things in my proposal are stuff we could have done with current API quite easily - e.g. using factories for creating objects. ←
14:14:27 <tinkster> ... Creating a Store and a Parser and parsing data into the Store is perhaps a little longwinded, but helps us understand the architecture, and makes the API extensible for other parsers to be added in.
... Creating a Store and a Parser and parsing data into the Store is perhaps a little longwinded, but helps us understand the architecture, and makes the API extensible for other parsers to be added in. ←
14:14:57 <tinkster> ... Experience from XForms is that it's good to make the 'under the hood' stuff explicit.
... Experience from XForms is that it's good to make the 'under the hood' stuff explicit. ←
14:16:37 <tinkster> ... There's a risk that if you make things pluggable, they become too broad, but it opens up flexibility. Would be nice to plug in HTML5 web storage as a store, say, or plug in a Microformats parser.
... There's a risk that if you make things pluggable, they become too broad, but it opens up flexibility. Would be nice to plug in HTML5 web storage as a store, say, or plug in a Microformats parser. ←
14:18:37 <Benjamin> q+ to comment this
Benjamin Adrian: q+ to comment this ←
14:18:57 <manu> ack benjamin
Manu Sporny: ack benjamin ←
14:18:57 <Zakim> Benjamin, you wanted to comment this
Zakim IRC Bot: Benjamin, you wanted to comment this ←
14:18:57 <tinkster> Topic: High-level vs. Low-level DOM API
14:18:57 <tinkster> Manu: This architecture can be thought of as a two-level API. Most developers will probably just use the high-level stuff, but if they need to do anything complicated, they can drop down to the lower level.
Manu Sporny: This architecture can be thought of as a two-level API. Most developers will probably just use the high-level stuff, but if they need to do anything complicated, they can drop down to the lower level. ←
14:19:59 <tinkster> Benjamin: mutliple stores and multiple parsers is something that I think should be looked at as part of the RDF Triple Stores API, not the RDFa DOM API.
Benjamin Adrian: mutliple stores and multiple parsers is something that I think should be looked at as part of the RDF Triple Stores API, not the RDFa DOM API. ←
14:20:11 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
14:20:53 <manu> ack ivan
Manu Sporny: ack ivan ←
14:21:03 <tinkster> manu: It seems like we're integrating these two ideas. Maybe we can't do a good job on the RDFa DOM API without thinking about a Triple Store API.
Manu Sporny: It seems like we're integrating these two ideas. Maybe we can't do a good job on the RDFa DOM API without thinking about a Triple Store API. ←
14:22:03 <tinkster> ivan: Let's not let the charter stop us from doing a good job on the API.
Ivan Herman: Let's not let the charter stop us from doing a good job on the API. ←
14:23:11 <tinkster> ... there seem to be two ways of getting at the data - finding a resource and then getting the triples for it; and a stripped down SPARQL-like query interface.
... there seem to be two ways of getting at the data - finding a resource and then getting the triples for it; and a stripped down SPARQL-like query interface. ←
14:23:52 <markbirbeck> +
Mark Birbeck: + ←
14:23:55 <markbirbeck> q+
Mark Birbeck: q+ ←
14:24:18 <tinkster> Benjamin: the close relation between DOM nodes and triples is an RDFa-specific thing, so tied to the RDFa API, not a general triple store API.
Benjamin Adrian: the close relation between DOM nodes and triples is an RDFa-specific thing, so tied to the RDFa API, not a general triple store API. ←
14:24:34 <manu> ack markbirbeck
Manu Sporny: ack markbirbeck ←
14:27:27 <ShaneM> I agree with Mark that it is a common data store technique.
Shane McCarron: I agree with Mark that it is a common data store technique. ←
14:27:29 <manu> q+ to say we should be too pure about this
Manu Sporny: q+ to say we should be too pure about this ←
14:27:34 <tinkster> markbirbeck: this can be thought of as a triple store which allows per-triple metadata - the metadata could be a pointer to a DOM node in the case of RDFa, or some other bit of info for other triples.
Mark Birbeck: this can be thought of as a triple store which allows per-triple metadata - the metadata could be a pointer to a DOM node in the case of RDFa, or some other bit of info for other triples. ←
14:28:19 <markbirbeck> q+
Mark Birbeck: q+ ←
14:28:22 <manu> ack manu
Manu Sporny: ack manu ←
14:28:22 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to say we should be too pure about this
Zakim IRC Bot: manu, you wanted to say we should be too pure about this ←
14:29:59 <tinkster> Manu: the idea of attaching metadata to triples is very powerful; we need to talk about it, but perhaps not right now.
Manu Sporny: the idea of attaching metadata to triples is very powerful; we need to talk about it, but perhaps not right now. ←
14:30:04 <manu> ack markbirbeck
Manu Sporny: ack markbirbeck ←
14:31:18 <tinkster> manu: we need to have a gentler introduction - can we at least agree on that?
Manu Sporny: we need to have a gentler introduction - can we at least agree on that? ←
14:31:34 <tinkster> ivan: no, we need to make it as tough as possible! </sarcasm>
Ivan Herman: no, we need to make it as tough as possible! </sarcasm> ←
14:32:26 <tinkster> manu: we need to keep up with facebook, etc stuff that's going on. perhaps use those vocabs in examples. we can mostly agree on that.
Manu Sporny: we need to keep up with facebook, etc stuff that's going on. perhaps use those vocabs in examples. we can mostly agree on that. ←
14:33:17 <tinkster> manu: i don't think we all agree on the need for a low-level and high-level API.
Manu Sporny: i don't think we all agree on the need for a low-level and high-level API. ←
14:33:48 <tinkster> Benjamin: the lowest level should be an RDFa level - there's a DOM with some RDFa attributes scattered about.
Benjamin Adrian: the lowest level should be an RDFa level - there's a DOM with some RDFa attributes scattered about. ←
14:34:07 <tinkster> Storing, querying and projecting should be the higher level.
Storing, querying and projecting should be the higher level. ←
14:35:16 <manu> q+ to discuss extraction vs. storage
Manu Sporny: q+ to discuss extraction vs. storage ←
14:35:29 <tinkster> ivan: we're looking at this from different perspectives - from an implementer vs user point of view. even in what benjamin is talking about, clearly a store and parser is needed on some kind.
Ivan Herman: we're looking at this from different perspectives - from an implementer vs user point of view. even in what benjamin is talking about, clearly a store and parser is needed on some kind. ←
14:36:03 <manu> ack manu
Manu Sporny: ack manu ←
14:36:03 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to discuss extraction vs. storage
Zakim IRC Bot: manu, you wanted to discuss extraction vs. storage ←
14:37:38 <tinkster> manu: benjamin's API looks mostly at extraction, not storage. Mark's approach is storage-oriented, in an effort to help compatibility between implementations.
Manu Sporny: benjamin's API looks mostly at extraction, not storage. Mark's approach is storage-oriented, in an effort to help compatibility between implementations. ←
14:38:41 <tinkster> markbirbeck: if you look at how HTML5 is evolving, a large part of the motivation is to nail down *exactly* how user-agents behave.
Mark Birbeck: if you look at how HTML5 is evolving, a large part of the motivation is to nail down *exactly* how user-agents behave. ←
14:39:04 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
14:39:07 <tinkster> ... at the very least, if we're not as specific, then we'll get a lot of flack.
... at the very least, if we're not as specific, then we'll get a lot of flack. ←
14:40:12 <manu> ack ivan
Manu Sporny: ack ivan ←
14:41:06 <manu> q+ to discuss implementation of current RDFa DOM API
Manu Sporny: q+ to discuss implementation of current RDFa DOM API ←
14:41:09 <tinkster> Topic: The RDFa DOM API Lifecycle/Environment
14:41:12 <tinkster> ivan: I'm not a browser programmer, but if I look at the current RDFa API document, that document, plus the RDFa Core spec seems to be clear enough.
Ivan Herman: I'm not a browser programmer, but if I look at the current RDFa API document, that document, plus the RDFa Core spec seems to be clear enough. ←
14:42:09 <tinkster> ... I can see there would be some issues about what data is available while the DOM is still loading, but I don't see why that justifies needing pluggable stores, etc.
... I can see there would be some issues about what data is available while the DOM is still loading, but I don't see why that justifies needing pluggable stores, etc. ←
14:43:14 <tinkster> manu: I've been looking at how to implement this in Firefox using the fuzz plugin based on librdfa. It looked like my implementation would have to be half C++, half Javascript.
Manu Sporny: I've been looking at how to implement this in Firefox using the fuzz plugin based on librdfa. It looked like my implementation would have to be half C++, half Javascript. ←
14:43:32 <tinkster> ... My concept of a data store seemed pretty different to Mark's.
... My concept of a data store seemed pretty different to Mark's. ←
14:44:19 <tinkster> ... Tying in triples to user data such as DOM node pointers make some things very easy; which would be difficult and probably buggy otherwise.
... Tying in triples to user data such as DOM node pointers make some things very easy; which would be difficult and probably buggy otherwise. ←
14:45:06 <tinkster> ivan: if I *only* want to implement support for RDFa, are all these layers still really needed?
Ivan Herman: if I *only* want to implement support for RDFa, are all these layers still really needed? ←
14:46:31 <tinkster> markbirbeck: putting aside stores and parsers for a while, we're left with two kinds of methods: getElementsByType sort of stuff; and the more complex query-like stuff.
Mark Birbeck: putting aside stores and parsers for a while, we're left with two kinds of methods: getElementsByType sort of stuff; and the more complex query-like stuff. ←
14:47:31 <tinkster> ... speaking as someone who's done a lot of Javascript, and is very interested in semweb technology, even I can't imagine using that query and triple stuff.
... speaking as someone who's done a lot of Javascript, and is very interested in semweb technology, even I can't imagine using that query and triple stuff. ←
14:47:45 <manu> q+ to discuss triple-based API.
Manu Sporny: q+ to discuss triple-based API. ←
14:48:03 <manu> q-
Manu Sporny: q- ←
14:48:13 <manu> q+ to discuss how knowing direction affects design.
Manu Sporny: q+ to discuss how knowing direction affects design. ←
14:48:15 <Benjamin> q+
Benjamin Adrian: q+ ←
14:48:21 <manu> ack manu
Manu Sporny: ack manu ←
14:48:21 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to discuss how knowing direction affects design.
Zakim IRC Bot: manu, you wanted to discuss how knowing direction affects design. ←
14:48:31 <tinkster> ... So how do we express queries to find out stuff like who foaf:knows whom without SPARQL-like complexity. getElementsByType is not enough.
... So how do we express queries to find out stuff like who foaf:knows whom without SPARQL-like complexity. getElementsByType is not enough. ←
14:50:14 <markbirbeck> q+
Mark Birbeck: q+ ←
14:50:15 <manu> ack benjamin
Manu Sporny: ack benjamin ←
14:50:18 <tinkster> manu: we need to give people an idea of the direction we're going. A lot of programmers and going to be asking for things like "get me the list of things that are people on the page, I want to do something with them".
Manu Sporny: we need to give people an idea of the direction we're going. A lot of programmers and going to be asking for things like "get me the list of things that are people on the page, I want to do something with them". ←
14:50:46 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
14:51:27 <tinkster> Benjamin: I agree that we need to provide flexible query interfaces - the filter functions are designed to solve that; I don't see what more is needed.
Benjamin Adrian: I agree that we need to provide flexible query interfaces - the filter functions are designed to solve that; I don't see what more is needed. ←
14:51:28 <manu> q+ to discuss Triple-based API
Manu Sporny: q+ to discuss Triple-based API ←
14:51:33 <manu> ack markbirbeck
Manu Sporny: ack markbirbeck ←
14:51:41 <tinkster> ... RDFa is RDF-based and we shouldn't ignore RDF's data model.
... RDFa is RDF-based and we shouldn't ignore RDF's data model. ←
14:51:59 <ShaneM> I agree with Benjamin that it is really important that the RDF data model still be available and related to the triples in the store.
Shane McCarron: I agree with Benjamin that it is really important that the RDF data model still be available and related to the triples in the store. ←
14:53:36 <tinkster> markbirbeck: the RDF data model is intentionally very abstract. why would you want to reflect that in a more constrained environment? what programmers want is objects or dictionary-like items.
Mark Birbeck: the RDF data model is intentionally very abstract. why would you want to reflect that in a more constrained environment? what programmers want is objects or dictionary-like items. ←
14:54:30 <Benjamin> q+ to quickly respond
Benjamin Adrian: q+ to quickly respond ←
14:54:35 <tinkster> ... RDF is a means to an end, not an end in itself.
... RDF is a means to an end, not an end in itself. ←
14:55:10 <manu> ack ivan
Manu Sporny: ack ivan ←
14:56:22 <markbirbeck> q+
Mark Birbeck: q+ ←
14:56:55 <manu> ack manu
Manu Sporny: ack manu ←
14:56:55 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to discuss Triple-based API
Zakim IRC Bot: manu, you wanted to discuss Triple-based API ←
14:57:17 <tinkster> ivan: I am lost. I don't see any major philosophical differences here. The current API is more or less a close equivalent to what's used everywhere already.
Ivan Herman: I am lost. I don't see any major philosophical differences here. The current API is more or less a close equivalent to what's used everywhere already. ←
14:57:47 <tinkster> manu: We do need a triple-based API, and also projections.
Manu Sporny: We do need a triple-based API, and also projections. ←
14:58:01 <manu> ack benjamin
Manu Sporny: ack benjamin ←
14:58:03 <Zakim> Benjamin, you wanted to quickly respond
Zakim IRC Bot: Benjamin, you wanted to quickly respond ←
14:58:42 <manu> ack markbirbeck
Manu Sporny: ack markbirbeck ←
14:58:54 <tinkster> Benjamin: the RdfObject interface in the current document seems to do this already.
Benjamin Adrian: the RdfObject interface in the current document seems to do this already. ←
14:59:59 <tinkster> markbirbeck: RdfObject is benjamin and manu's interpretation of what I was talking about a while ago, but it doesn't go as far as I wanted to go.
Mark Birbeck: RdfObject is benjamin and manu's interpretation of what I was talking about a while ago, but it doesn't go as far as I wanted to go. ←
15:00:05 <manu> +1 to dealing with strings by default, typing if you want to be more specific.
Manu Sporny: +1 to dealing with strings by default, typing if you want to be more specific. ←
15:00:42 <tinkster> ... The need an API where programmers don't need to fuss about what's a resource and what's a plain literal.
... The need an API where programmers don't need to fuss about what's a resource and what's a plain literal. ←
15:00:43 <manu> q+ to discuss type conversion
Manu Sporny: q+ to discuss type conversion ←
15:01:12 <manu> q-
Manu Sporny: q- ←
15:01:22 <manu> q+ to end the call (formally), but continue (informally)
Manu Sporny: q+ to end the call (formally), but continue (informally) ←
15:02:10 <tinkster> ... what we want is an API that people will want to use so much that they go and add RDFa to their pages.
... what we want is an API that people will want to use so much that they go and add RDFa to their pages. ←
15:03:06 <Zakim> -Toby
Zakim IRC Bot: -Toby ←
15:03:08 <manu> q+ to discuss type conversion - philisophical differences aren't as big as they may seem.
Manu Sporny: q+ to discuss type conversion - philisophical differences aren't as big as they may seem. ←
15:03:21 <manu> scribenick: manu
(Scribe set to Manu Sporny)
15:03:53 <manu> Ivan: I'm confused about the argument - you're saying we shouldn't type... but then we need to use DOM Nodes?
Ivan Herman: I'm confused about the argument - you're saying we shouldn't type... but then we need to use DOM Nodes? ←
15:04:04 <Zakim> -Knud
Zakim IRC Bot: -Knud ←
15:04:07 <manu> Ivan: If I'm an RDFa author, I need to know about differences between IRI and Blank Nodes.
Ivan Herman: If I'm an RDFa author, I need to know about differences between IRI and Blank Nodes. ←
15:04:11 <manu> ack manu
ack manu ←
15:04:34 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to end the call (formally), but continue (informally) and to discuss type conversion - philisophical differences aren't as big as they may seem.
Zakim IRC Bot: manu, you wanted to end the call (formally), but continue (informally) and to discuss type conversion - philisophical differences aren't as big as they may seem. ←
15:06:02 <manu> Topic: RDFa DOM API - Philosophical Design Choices
15:06:06 <manu> Manu: I don't think there are as large philosophical differences as people think.
Manu Sporny: I don't think there are as large philosophical differences as people think. ←
15:06:21 <manu> Ivan: Yes
Ivan Herman: Yes ←
15:06:29 <manu> Benjamin: (something that sounded like sure)
Benjamin Adrian: (something that sounded like sure) ←
15:06:37 <Benjamin> yes :)
Benjamin Adrian: yes :) ←
15:06:41 <manu> Mark: Sure, so perhaps we can get into implementation details now.
Mark Birbeck: Sure, so perhaps we can get into implementation details now. ←
15:07:05 <manu> Mark: To talk about typing, people are going to need to instantiate IRIs, and PlainLiterals, etc.
Mark Birbeck: To talk about typing, people are going to need to instantiate IRIs, and PlainLiterals, etc. ←
15:07:17 <manu> Ivan: Wait, where does it create a problem on the API level?
Ivan Herman: Wait, where does it create a problem on the API level? ←
15:07:46 <manu> Mark: I'm concerned that people have to create Types before people do a query.
Mark Birbeck: I'm concerned that people have to create Types before people do a query. ←
15:08:30 <manu> Mark: Why not just check both? Is it a literal? Is it a resource?
Mark Birbeck: Why not just check both? Is it a literal? Is it a resource? ←
15:08:39 <manu> Manu: I agree that we don't need to type everything.
Manu Sporny: I agree that we don't need to type everything. ←
15:10:00 <manu> Manu: Why not allow strings as input, but proper datatyped objects back to the developer?
Manu Sporny: Why not allow strings as input, but proper datatyped objects back to the developer? ←
15:10:13 <manu> Mark: Yes, sounds good - not saying let's forget about IRIs, PlainLiterals, etc.
Mark Birbeck: Yes, sounds good - not saying let's forget about IRIs, PlainLiterals, etc. ←
15:11:44 <manu> Manu: So, has your ideas about this changed a bit, Benjamin?
Manu Sporny: So, has your ideas about this changed a bit, Benjamin? ←
15:12:12 <Benjamin> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/sources/rdfa-dom-api/#rdf-triple-list
Benjamin Adrian: http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/sources/rdfa-dom-api/#rdf-triple-list ←
15:12:53 <manu> Benjamin: Yes, we have some concepts that are similar - RDFTripleList and Store are similar.
Benjamin Adrian: Yes, we have some concepts that are similar - RDFTripleList and Store are similar. ←
15:13:30 <manu> Manu: Let's spec out a Store, then...
Manu Sporny: Let's spec out a Store, then... ←
15:13:40 <manu> Benjamin: Important to have iterators...
Benjamin Adrian: Important to have iterators... ←
15:15:02 <manu> Manu: Yes, we need to have mechanisms for low-memory environments.
Manu Sporny: Yes, we need to have mechanisms for low-memory environments. ←
15:15:23 <manu> Mark: Just because you have a store doesn't mean you need to actually store everything in it.
Mark Birbeck: Just because you have a store doesn't mean you need to actually store everything in it. ←
15:17:00 <manu> Manu: Well, what I'm concerned about is spec'ing what happens when the DOM changes.
Manu Sporny: Well, what I'm concerned about is spec'ing what happens when the DOM changes. ←
15:17:19 <manu> Mark: DOM3 XPATH has the concept of snapshots... we could use something from that.
Mark Birbeck: DOM3 XPATH has the concept of snapshots... we could use something from that. ←
15:18:01 <manu> Manu: So, we should have some iterator based mechanism in the DOM API.
Manu Sporny: So, we should have some iterator based mechanism in the DOM API. ←
15:18:40 <manu> Manu: What about pluggable parsers? Do we want to support that?
Manu Sporny: What about pluggable parsers? Do we want to support that? ←
15:18:58 <manu> Mark: At a high level, we can say "parse the document" without specifying what happens underneath.
Mark Birbeck: At a high level, we can say "parse the document" without specifying what happens underneath. ←
15:19:19 <manu> Mark: At the very least, the store has .add() method with (subject, predicate, object) - it's RDF compliant.
Mark Birbeck: At the very least, the store has .add() method with (subject, predicate, object) - it's RDF compliant. ←
15:19:47 <manu> Mark: A parser does whatever it does, but you bind the parser to a store... as long as it can get to the .add() method, it can do whatever it likes - parse Microformats, Microdata, RDFa, whatever.
Mark Birbeck: A parser does whatever it does, but you bind the parser to a store... as long as it can get to the .add() method, it can do whatever it likes - parse Microformats, Microdata, RDFa, whatever. ←
15:20:18 <manu> Mark: Benjamin said we don't have to talk about Microformats... but if we support this, we do that automatically.
Mark Birbeck: Benjamin said we don't have to talk about Microformats... but if we support this, we do that automatically. ←
15:20:28 <manu> Mark: So, we can allow different parsers to connect to the store.
Mark Birbeck: So, we can allow different parsers to connect to the store. ←
15:20:48 <manu> Mark: I'm imagining that a lot of these low-level functions would still be there on the Store and the Parser API.
Mark Birbeck: I'm imagining that a lot of these low-level functions would still be there on the Store and the Parser API. ←
15:21:04 <manu> Benjamin: I like the idea of exposing the .add() function.
Benjamin Adrian: I like the idea of exposing the .add() function. ←
15:21:13 <manu> Benjamin: I think we should specify it only for RDFa...
Benjamin Adrian: I think we should specify it only for RDFa... ←
15:21:46 <manu> Benjamin: We can say, this is the hook where you plug in your parser into our API. People might be clever enough to think about other languages.
Benjamin Adrian: We can say, this is the hook where you plug in your parser into our API. People might be clever enough to think about other languages. ←
15:22:02 <manu> Benjamin: I don't think there is any need to talk about that...
Benjamin Adrian: I don't think there is any need to talk about that... ←
15:22:28 <manu> Ivan: I think there is a packaging issue here - I think there are two documents here...
Ivan Herman: I think there is a packaging issue here - I think there are two documents here... ←
15:23:15 <manu> Ivan: I think even in the technical document, it makes sense to separate beginning concepts from advanced concepts.
Ivan Herman: I think even in the technical document, it makes sense to separate beginning concepts from advanced concepts. ←
15:24:04 <manu> Ivan: We could talk about Microformats/Microdata in the beginning section... but we might not need to talk about that because beginning people might not care.
Ivan Herman: We could talk about Microformats/Microdata in the beginning section... but we might not need to talk about that because beginning people might not care. ←
15:24:09 <manu> Mark: There are three levels of users...
Mark Birbeck: There are three levels of users... ←
15:24:19 <manu> Mark: Two Javascript layers, and one layer of RDF.
Mark Birbeck: Two Javascript layers, and one layer of RDF. ←
15:24:31 <markbirbeck> An example of use of add():
Mark Birbeck: An example of use of add(): ←
15:24:33 <Zakim> -[MIT528]
Zakim IRC Bot: -[MIT528] ←
15:24:37 <markbirbeck> / Create a Google Maps geocoder object
Mark Birbeck: / Create a Google Maps geocoder object ←
15:24:37 <markbirbeck> var geocoder = new google.maps.Geocoder();
Mark Birbeck: var geocoder = new google.maps.Geocoder(); ←
15:24:37 <markbirbeck> / Set up a function to geocode an address and add the lat/long to a store
Mark Birbeck: / Set up a function to geocode an address and add the lat/long to a store ←
15:24:37 <markbirbeck> function geocode( store, subj, address ) {
Mark Birbeck: function geocode( store, subj, address ) { ←
15:24:38 <markbirbeck> geocoder.geocode( { 'address': address }, function(results, status) {
Mark Birbeck: geocoder.geocode( { 'address': address }, function(results, status) { ←
15:24:38 <markbirbeck> if (status == google.maps.GeocoderStatus.OK) {
Mark Birbeck: if (status == google.maps.GeocoderStatus.OK) { ←
15:24:40 <markbirbeck> store.add("default", subj, "http://www.w3.org/2003/01/geo/wgs84_pos#lat",
Mark Birbeck: store.add("default", subj, "http://www.w3.org/2003/01/geo/wgs84_pos#lat", ←
15:24:42 <markbirbeck> results[0].geometry.location.lat());
Mark Birbeck: results[0].geometry.location.lat()); ←
15:24:44 <markbirbeck> store.add("default", subj, "http://www.w3.org/2003/01/geo/wgs84_pos#long",
Mark Birbeck: store.add("default", subj, "http://www.w3.org/2003/01/geo/wgs84_pos#long", ←
15:24:46 <markbirbeck> results[0].geometry.location.long());
Mark Birbeck: results[0].geometry.location.long()); ←
15:24:48 <markbirbeck> }
Mark Birbeck: } ←
15:24:50 <markbirbeck> });
Mark Birbeck: }); ←
15:24:52 <markbirbeck> return;
Mark Birbeck: return; ←
15:24:54 <markbirbeck> }
Mark Birbeck: } ←
15:25:31 <Benjamin> q+
Benjamin Adrian: q+ ←
15:25:32 <manu> Mark: This allows people like Google to distribute Javascript libraries that add information to the Stores.
Mark Birbeck: This allows people like Google to distribute Javascript libraries that add information to the Stores. ←
15:26:01 <manu> Mark: This'll be people like Facebook/Google/Yahoo that'll integrate this stuff in their libraries, to push data into the triplestore.
Mark Birbeck: This'll be people like Facebook/Google/Yahoo that'll integrate this stuff in their libraries, to push data into the triplestore. ←
15:26:04 <manu> ack benjamin
ack benjamin ←
15:26:47 <manu> Benjamin: I like this use case - working with this use case everyday. I think we should focus on the DOM.
Benjamin Adrian: I like this use case - working with this use case everyday. I think we should focus on the DOM. ←
15:29:09 <manu> Manu: What if we store it in a different graph?
Manu Sporny: What if we store it in a different graph? ←
15:29:37 <manu> Mark: Well, that's what I'm getting at - stores are a collection of named graphs - "default" in the example above is a named graph.
Mark Birbeck: Well, that's what I'm getting at - stores are a collection of named graphs - "default" in the example above is a named graph. ←
15:30:03 <manu> Mark: If I go off to twitter and get tweets from a number of people, I want to get the tweets and put them in a triple store.
Mark Birbeck: If I go off to twitter and get tweets from a number of people, I want to get the tweets and put them in a triple store. ←
15:30:20 <manu> Mark: The store is the basic library to be used for data when building web-based applications.
Mark Birbeck: The store is the basic library to be used for data when building web-based applications. ←
15:30:39 <manu> Ivan: I think we are talking about two different things here - that's the issue.
Ivan Herman: I think we are talking about two different things here - that's the issue. ←
15:30:53 <manu> Ivan: Mark, you're talking about a general, generic RDF API for Javascript users - that's fine.
Ivan Herman: Mark, you're talking about a general, generic RDF API for Javascript users - that's fine. ←
15:31:07 <manu> Ivan: Benjamin, what you're talking about is strictly what is needed for the RDFa DOM API.
Ivan Herman: Benjamin, what you're talking about is strictly what is needed for the RDFa DOM API. ←
15:31:33 <manu> Ivan: It comes back to the level of differentiation we had in the charter.
Ivan Herman: It comes back to the level of differentiation we had in the charter. ←
15:32:32 <manu> Ivan: Maybe this comes back to what Manu said in the beginning - this RDFa API needs to take into account the entire environment.
Ivan Herman: Maybe this comes back to what Manu said in the beginning - this RDFa API needs to take into account the entire environment. ←
15:33:14 <manu> q+ to talk about what does/doesn't go in the RDFa DOM API document.
q+ to talk about what does/doesn't go in the RDFa DOM API document. ←
15:33:46 <manu> Mark: I'm saying that we need some of these interfaces... at the top level, I don't see how we can do this with the current API.
Mark Birbeck: I'm saying that we need some of these interfaces... at the top level, I don't see how we can do this with the current API. ←
15:36:21 <markbirbeck> q+
Mark Birbeck: q+ ←
15:36:52 <manu> ack manu
ack manu ←
15:36:54 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to talk about what does/doesn't go in the RDFa DOM API document.
Zakim IRC Bot: manu, you wanted to talk about what does/doesn't go in the RDFa DOM API document. ←
15:37:08 <manu> Manu: This seems to be a discussion about what to talk about in the API - we can just talk about RDFa in the RDFa DOM API
Manu Sporny: This seems to be a discussion about what to talk about in the API - we can just talk about RDFa in the RDFa DOM API ←
15:37:19 <Benjamin> q+
Benjamin Adrian: q+ ←
15:37:32 <manu> Manu: but it is important to think bigger - think about the environment.
Manu Sporny: but it is important to think bigger - think about the environment. ←
15:37:51 <manu> Mark: What I was hearing from Benjamin was that we shouldn't support these things - not allow the modification of the triple store.
Mark Birbeck: What I was hearing from Benjamin was that we shouldn't support these things - not allow the modification of the triple store. ←
15:38:04 <manu> Mark: Where did this triple come from? Is it in the default graph?
Mark Birbeck: Where did this triple come from? Is it in the default graph? ←
15:38:18 <manu> Mark: Do we strive for making this type of functionality possible, and then solve the problems as they come up?
Mark Birbeck: Do we strive for making this type of functionality possible, and then solve the problems as they come up? ←
15:38:38 <manu> Mark: Or, do we say - our goal is simply to give people access to triples in an RDFa page.
Mark Birbeck: Or, do we say - our goal is simply to give people access to triples in an RDFa page. ←
15:38:42 <manu> Mark: I think we need to resolve that.
Mark Birbeck: I think we need to resolve that. ←
15:39:00 <manu> ack markbirbeck
ack markbirbeck ←
15:39:03 <manu> ack benjamin
ack benjamin ←
15:39:10 <manu> Topic: RDFa DOM API Document Structure
15:39:13 <manu> Benjamin: I would recommend to make both, but in separate documents.
Benjamin Adrian: I would recommend to make both, but in separate documents. ←
15:39:45 <manu> Benjamin: I think your approach is good, but it's not part of the RDFa DOM API - let's publish what you're talking about as the RDF Triplestore API and publish them both.
Benjamin Adrian: I think your approach is good, but it's not part of the RDFa DOM API - let's publish what you're talking about as the RDF Triplestore API and publish them both. ←
15:40:21 <manu> Manu: if that's where consensus is, then I'm fine with it.
Manu Sporny: if that's where consensus is, then I'm fine with it. ←
15:40:53 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
15:40:54 <manu> Mark: I think it would be a shame to do that... but I could live with it.
Mark Birbeck: I think it would be a shame to do that... but I could live with it. ←
15:40:57 <manu> ack ivan
ack ivan ←
15:41:10 <manu> Ivan: If we separate these two things, it gives us more freedom.
Ivan Herman: If we separate these two things, it gives us more freedom. ←
15:41:28 <manu> Ivan: If we look at what I can an RDF API, then we can/should add features that RDF power-users would use as well.
Ivan Herman: If we look at what I can an RDF API, then we can/should add features that RDF power-users would use as well. ←
15:42:39 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
15:43:19 <manu> Manu: Let's keep this all in the same document for now... split it later if needed.
Manu Sporny: Let's keep this all in the same document for now... split it later if needed. ←
15:43:45 <manu> Ivan: I think there are things that are good to separate - by separating the RDF API into a separate document, we can ask the SemWeb community about it.
Ivan Herman: I think there are things that are good to separate - by separating the RDF API into a separate document, we can ask the SemWeb community about it. ←
15:44:42 <ivan> zakim, drop me
Ivan Herman: zakim, drop me ←
15:44:42 <Zakim> Ivan is being disconnected
Zakim IRC Bot: Ivan is being disconnected ←
15:44:44 <Zakim> -Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: -Ivan ←
15:44:51 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
Ivan Herman: zakim, dial ivan-voip ←
15:44:51 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made ←
15:44:53 <Zakim> +Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: +Ivan ←
15:45:36 <manu> Ivan: So, by separating the document into something that is clearly RDF specific, there are a number of communities that we need to discuss this with - TimBL will want to give input on this.
Ivan Herman: So, by separating the document into something that is clearly RDF specific, there are a number of communities that we need to discuss this with - TimBL will want to give input on this. ←
15:46:00 <manu> Ivan: The RDF Storage API isn't even Javascript specific...
Ivan Herman: The RDF Storage API isn't even Javascript specific... ←
15:46:50 <manu> Manu: So, we go forward with all of this in the same document and split it into two documents in the future.
Manu Sporny: So, we go forward with all of this in the same document and split it into two documents in the future. ←
15:49:06 <manu> Manu: So it sounds like we have a general direction that we agree with...
Manu Sporny: So it sounds like we have a general direction that we agree with... ←
15:52:52 <ShaneM> q+ to talk about documentation integration
Shane McCarron: q+ to talk about documentation integration ←
15:53:57 <manu> Manu: How are we going to do the merge?
Manu Sporny: How are we going to do the merge? ←
15:54:09 <ShaneM> zakim, ack me
Shane McCarron: zakim, ack me ←
15:54:09 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to talk about documentation integration
Zakim IRC Bot: ShaneM, you wanted to talk about documentation integration ←
15:54:11 <Zakim> I see ivan on the speaker queue
Zakim IRC Bot: I see ivan on the speaker queue ←
15:54:15 <manu> ack ivan
ack ivan ←
15:56:24 <ShaneM> do you envision a separate short name? should this be on the W3C server somewhere?
Shane McCarron: do you envision a separate short name? should this be on the W3C server somewhere? ←
15:57:27 <Benjamin> q+
Benjamin Adrian: q+ ←
15:59:24 <ShaneM> I am out of cycles for today. sorry!
Shane McCarron: I am out of cycles for today. sorry! ←
15:59:48 <Zakim> -ShaneM
Zakim IRC Bot: -ShaneM ←
15:59:52 <ivan> guys, I have to go
Ivan Herman: guys, I have to go ←
16:00:03 <ivan> zakim, drop me
Ivan Herman: zakim, drop me ←
16:00:05 <Zakim> Ivan is being disconnected
Zakim IRC Bot: Ivan is being disconnected ←
16:00:07 <Zakim> -Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: -Ivan ←
16:06:57 <manu> Manu: Ok, so sounds like we'll do the following: Mark will translate his document to ReSpec and let us know when each section is done.
(No events recorded for 6 minutes)
Manu Sporny: Ok, so sounds like we'll do the following: Mark will translate his document to ReSpec and let us know when each section is done. ←
16:07:48 <manu> Manu: Benjamin and I will merge the completed sections to the current RDFa DOM API document
Manu Sporny: Benjamin and I will merge the completed sections to the current RDFa DOM API document ←
16:08:12 <manu> Manu: for sections that we don't agree on, we'll have to discuss on the W3C telecons.
Manu Sporny: for sections that we don't agree on, we'll have to discuss on the W3C telecons. ←
16:08:32 <manu> Manu: Sound good?
Manu Sporny: Sound good? ←
16:08:54 <manu> Manu: (notes no disagreements)
Manu Sporny: (notes no disagreements) ←
Formatted by CommonScribe