Meeting Record

There are some format problems with the chatlog. Please correct them and reload this page. They are labeled on this page in a red box, like this message.

It may be helpful to

Scribe problem: the name 'msporny' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, msporny; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 14 minutes ←

Scribe problem: the name 'Manu Sporny' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'ShaneM' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown ShaneM: FWIW I am at the XHTML 2 WG meeting now and it might be challenging to attend this meeting too ←

Scribe problem: the name 'Ben Adida' does not match any of the 0 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names:

Scribe problem: the name 'Steven' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'Steven Pemberton' does not match any of the 0 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names:

Scribe problem: the name 'Shane McCarron' does not match any of the 0 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names:

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', msporny. Try /msg RRSAgent help ←

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I'm logging. I don't understand 'make public', msporny. Try /msg RRSAgent help ←

Scribe problem: the name 'Ralph' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'Ralph Swick' does not match any of the 0 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names:

Scribe problem: the name 'Manu Sporny' does not match any of the 0 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names:

Scribe problem: the name 'ShaneM' does not match any of the 5 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Unknown Swick Unknown Sporny Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'msporny' does not match any of the 5 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Unknown Swick Unknown Sporny Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'Ralph' does not match any of the 5 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Unknown Swick Unknown Sporny Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Ralph: There are two remaining technical points that need to be clarified. ←

Unknown Ralph: regarding document conformance, the concern is around SHOULDs for the DOCTYPE and @profile. ←

Unknown Ralph: My proposal after the conversation with Tim is to put the reference to DOCTYPE and @profile into a non-normative appendix ←

Unknown Ralph: The reasoning is that these are both for the convenience of implementations that need these facilities. They are not required for the document to assert it has triples. ←

Unknown Ralph: Neither DOCTYPE nor @profile are essential for asserting triples. ←

Scribe problem: the name 'Ben' does not match any of the 5 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Unknown Swick Unknown Sporny Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'Shane' does not match any of the 5 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Unknown Swick Unknown Sporny Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Shane: I though this was about SHOULD/MUST for detection of triples. ←

Unknown Ralph: Not really, each of the three was meant to assert whether or not the document asserts the triples. ←

Unknown Ben: we all agree that triples are kicked off via the namespace document [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown Shane: The constraints from XHTML modularization have nothing to do with triple generation. ←

Unknown Shane: They have to do with the announcement of the type of document that is being delivered. ←

Unknown Shane: We always provide a way for document authors to specify the type of document they're delivering. ←

Unknown Ralph: The GRDDL spec is clear that either @profile or namespace document is sufficient. We're doing the namespace document, so we're covered there. ←

Unknown Ben: I thought we were always clear about changing the definition of XHTML with modularization. ←

Unknown Ralph: There's another way to look at it... we need to consult with XHTML 2 WG. ←

Unknown Ralph: The spec currently says SHOULD, and what we're being told is that SHOULD is confusing. ←

Unknown Ralph: SHOULD means that implementations should complain if documents don't have this, but we're not attempting to be that strong. ←

Unknown Ralph: It's not clear what the triple protocol is with these three SHOULDs. ←

Unknown Shane: It is possible that XHTML2 WG is using the term SHOULD in a way that other groups use it... and if that's the case we should change it. ←

Unknown Shane: We don't think that SHOULD means "agents should complain". If that's the case, we should be saying "MAY". ←

Unknown Shane: Usually MAY is an optional behavior, and is a warning to implementers to not depend on the behavior. ←

Unknown Shane: We now have @version - it would be nice to say MUST include @version. ←

Unknown Shane: Define a document type and define a method to detect that triples could be extracted from the document. ←

Unknown Ralph: The definition of the markup language is done through the namespace URL. ←

Scribe problem: the name 'Manu' does not match any of the 5 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Unknown Swick Unknown Sporny Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Manu: So we have DOCTYPE and then we have @version and we have @profile. ←

Unknown Manu: In the future, it seems like people want to get rid of DOCTYPE. So isn't @version going to be necessary in the future? ←

Unknown Ralph: If somebody creates a schema that produces different triples, we would be uncomfortable with that. You must state the @version if you want to be clear. ←

Unknown Ben: Is there going to be a way to follow your nose using a combination of the default namespace and @version. ←

Unknown Ralph: If the namespace document identified triples that mapped to the @version, then you could follow your nose. ←

Unknown Ben: So DOCTYPE and @profile are not necessary, but @version could be. ←

Unknown Ralph: If we say that @version is a MUST, then we might be suggesting that the XHTML1 triples were always there. ←

Unknown Ben: No @version should be a SHOULD, and the XHTML1 triples have always been there. ←

Unknown Shane: There is a difference between stating the document type and stating that there are triples in the document. ←

Unknown Ben: We now have a consistent internal story, what do we need to do to the current document. ←

Unknown Ben: If the namespace document contains a GRDDL @profile, the document does not. ←

Unknown Shane: GRDDL states that you should use @profile in XHTML documents. ←

Unknown Ben: GRDDL makes most sense at the namespace level, not the instance level. ←

Unknown Ralph: We had that in there mostly for broken GRDDL implementations. ←

Unknown Ralph: So the solution to the deployment issue is to add an non-normative appendix. ←

Unknown Ralph: About the procedural concern about this being substantiative, we can mark it as a feature at risk. ←

Unknown Ben: This is editorial because if you build an implementation of RDFa, it will still work after this change is in there. ←

Unknown Ralph: We have 3 items that are SHOULD and none of them are necessary to find triples. ←

Unknown Shane: We have an appendix now that defines the DTD and is normative. ←

Unknown Shane: The SHOULD about the DTD should be removed to an appendix. We already say that you SHOULD use DOCTYPE. ←

Unknown Ralph: The appendix says here is the normative system identifier if you want to use it. ←

Unknown Ralph: We could leave it implicit that the way you use it is to put DOCTYPE in there. ←

Scribe problem: the name 'PROPOSE' does not match any of the 5 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Unknown Swick Unknown Sporny Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown PROPOSE: move the two items "SHOULD be a DOCTYPE" and "SHOULD be a @profile" from Section 4.1 to a new Informational Appendix "Deployment Advice" [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown Ben: So it sounds like we have an appendix that has current deployment advice. Use DOCTYPE and @profile if you want. ←

Scribe problem: the name 'benadida' does not match any of the 5 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Unknown Swick Unknown Sporny Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

RESOLVED: move the two items "SHOULD be a DOCTYPE" and "SHOULD be a @profile" from Section 4.1 to a new Informational Appendix "Deployment Advice" ←

Unknown Ben: I'll chat with Mark and Steven about this to make sure they're okay with this. ←

Unknown Ralph: There is no W3C recommendation that sufficiently defines [default graph] ←

Unknown Ralph: What we mean in this case is that the document has asserted these triples. ←

Unknown Ralph: Any other triples that the processor might choose to find, in this version of the spec, the document has not asserted. ←

Unknown Ben: We went through this several times, so changing the language might not work well for everybody. ←

Unknown Ralph: We don't say that the [default graph] holds the triples that are asserted by this document. ←

Unknown Shane: A conforming RDFa Processor MUST make available to a consuming application a single [RDF graph] containing all possible triples generated by using the rules in the Processing Model section. This is called the [default graph]. ←

Unknown PROPOSE: add "The [default graph] is the graph of triples that are asserted by the document according to this specification." [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown Ralph: We are saying that the document asserts a certain set of triples, we are not saying that they do not assert any other triples. ←

Unknown Shane: "For the avoidance of doubt, tThe [default graph] is the graph of triples that are asserted by the document according to this specification." ←

Unknown PROPOSE: add "The RDF semantics of the document include the triples that are in the [default graph]." [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown PROPOSE: add "This specification uses the term [default graph] to mean the graph of triples that are asserted by the document." [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown ShaneM: For the avoidance of doubt, the default graph contains all of the triples ←

Unknown Ben: When we say [default graph] we don't mean all triples asserted by all languages. We mean ONLY the triples generated by the RDFa specification. ←

Unknown Ralph: We are saying that document authors that use the processing model that we have described here are asserting triples. ←

Unknown Ben: We shouldn't allow this specification to allow OTHER triples defined in other documents to be placed into the [default graph] ←

Unknown benadida: he [default graph] is the graph of triples that, according to this specification, are asserted by the document. ←

Unknown PROPOSE: This specification uses the term <tref>default graph</tref> to mean all of the triples asserted by a document according to the <a href="#s_model">Processing Model</a> section. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown ShaneM ] ←

Unknown ShaneM: <p><must>A conforming RDFa Processor MUST make available to a consuming application ←

Unknown ShaneM: a single <tref>RDF graph</tref> containing all possible triples generated by ←

Unknown ShaneM: using the rules in the <a href="#s_model">Processing Model</a> section. This is called ←

Unknown ShaneM: the <tdef>default graph</tdef>, and only contains the triples asserted by a document that are within this single RDF graph.</p> ←

Unknown ShaneM: <p><must>A conforming RDFa Processor MUST make available to a consuming application ←

Unknown ShaneM: a single <tref>RDF graph</tref> containing all possible triples generated by ←

Unknown ShaneM: using the rules in the <a href="#s_model">Processing Model</a> section.</must> ←

Unknown ShaneM: <tdef>default graph</tdef> to mean all of the triples asserted by a document according to the <a href="#s_model">Processing Model</a> section.</p> ←

Replace sentence "This is called the [default graph]" with "This specification uses the term <tref>default graph</tref> to mean all of the triples asserted by a document according to the <a href="#s_model">Processing Model</a> section." ←

RESOLVED: Replace sentence "This is called the [default graph]" with "This specification uses the term <tref>default graph</tref> to mean all of the triples asserted by a document according to the <a href="#s_model">Processing Model</a> section." ←

Unknown ShaneM: DTD defined in <a href="#a_xhtmlrdfa_dtd">Appendix A</a>. If a document author wants ←

Unknown ShaneM: to faciliate such validation, they may include the following ←

RDF in XHTML Task Force

Minutes of 19 June 2008

1. TimBL's comments

2. Default Graph Language per TimBL's comment.