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Scribe problem: the name 'Steven' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Zakim IRC Bot: I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, Steven ←

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 57 minutes ←

Scribe problem: the name 'ShaneM' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'ralph' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown ShaneM: why oh why can I never get this stupid thing to tell me what I want? ←

Scribe problem: the name 'Ralph' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Ralph ←

Unknown ShaneM: I see that now. it should be as forgiving as possible imho... ←

Scribe problem: the name 'markbirbeck' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'msporny' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

ACTION: Ben to update RDFa schedule to include CR [recorded in ACTION-01]">http://www.w3.org/2008/03/13-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-01] ←

ACTION: Manu to enable EARL output in RDFa Test Harness [recorded in ACTION-13]">http://www.w3.org/2008/03/13-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-13] ←

ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki [recorded in ACTION-12]">http://www.w3.org/2008/03/13-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-12] ←

ACTION: Ben followup with Fabien on getting his RDFa GRDDL transform transferred to W3C [recorded in ACTION-01]">http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-01] ←

ACTION: Ben to respond to ISSUE-87 [recorded in ACTION-09]">http://www.w3.org/2008/02/28-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-09] ←

ACTION: Manu write a response to Christian Hoertnagl for ISSUE-7 [recorded in ACTION-09]">http://www.w3.org/2008/02/21-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-09] ←

Scribe problem: the name 'Manu' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

ACTION: Mark/Shane include ISSUE-89 correction in Changes section [recorded in ACTION-11]">http://www.w3.org/2008/03/06-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-11] ←

Scribe problem: the name 'Shane' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Shane: I forgot to update the Changes section after making the other correction [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown Steven: we'd have to re-issue a spec [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown Ralph: ... normally media type specifications are issued via IETF as an RFC ←

Unknown Ralph: ... the change would be something like "the document may include RDFa" ←

Unknown Ralph: ... I think this is almost daft; I don't see why it's necessary ←

Unknown Ralph: ... you can scrape loads of metadata out of existing documents ←

Unknown ShaneM: The current media type document explicitly includes XHTML family markup languages ←

Scribe problem: the name 'Ben' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Ben: we haven't changed anything about the media, have we? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown Steven: if someone uses our module in another language, are they also going to have to change their media type registration? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown Ben: the main argument seems to be that HTML didn't update when GRDDL became a REC [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown Ralph: ... the claim will be that GRDDL introduced no new attributes ←

Unknown Shane: our media type application/xml+xhtml is specifically meant to be extended [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown Ralph: is there enough indirection from the mime type registration to the XHTML specification at W3C such that when W3C changes XHTML definition we don't have to change the mime registration? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown Shane: we don't need to do anything [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown Ralph: can we update an XML Schema document for XHTML? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown msporny: +1 - in agreement with being able to create new XML documents using XHTML modules ←

Unknown Ben: given XHTML modularization, one can cobble together a bunch of modules into a new schema [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown Ralph: we're not being asked to change the media type, but to update the registration [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown Steven: "With respect to XHTML Modularization [XHTMLMOD] and the existence ←

Unknown Steven: of XHTML based languages (referred to as XHTML family members) ←

Unknown Steven: that are not XHTML 1.0 conformant languages, it is possible that ←

Unknown Steven: 'application/xhtml+xml' may be used to describe some of these ←

Unknown Steven: documents. However, it should suffice for now for the purposes of ←

Unknown Steven: 'application/xhtml+xml' content use the user agent conformance ←

Scribe problem: the name 'Mark' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Mark: if TAG would be happy with a link to a GRDDL transform [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown ShaneM: I think that the issue is that the TAG wants a way to know that a document contains extractable meta data ←

Unknown msporny: So, are you saying that we do @version="XHTML+RDFa 1.0" in the current RDFa Syntax Document? ←

Unknown msporny: are you saying that we do that in addition to @profile and the DTD type? ←

Unknown Ben: do we agree the TAG is wrong on the need to update the media type? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown ShaneM: The declaration does not help address the real TAG issue, which is that they want to know when a resource contains triples. ←

Unknown Steven: we had to combine several documents and were forced to go through Last Call again [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown Ralph: ... there's no processor to write; the processors are schema or dtd processors ←

Unknown Ralph: so the schema document we would update to add a transform URI is held up in this process? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown ShaneM: Note that I dont think this schema technique is valid. It would mean that EVERY xhtml document generated triples. We don't mean that. ←

ACTION: Ben to follow up on media type discussion with Steven, Ralph, and TAG ←

Unknown Manu: we need to resolve XMLLiteral first; all the new tests depend on that [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown Ben: I agree with Mark that the abstract RDF graph contains XML literals in canonical form [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown Ralph: ... however, in practice a parser always returns some serialization of RDF ←

Unknown Ralph: ... so even if there was a parser that always stores a canonical representation internally it is still permissible for that internal representation to be re-serialized in non-canonical form ←

Unknown Ralph: ... so if the output of an RDF parser is _a_ valid serialization, it doesn't matter whether the canonicalization was actually done in an internal step ←

Unknown Mark: yes, and Ivan gave the example of an RDF serialization that uses ' instead of " [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown Ralph: ... it's valid serialization but is it a true representation of the RDF graph? ←

Unknown Ralph: ... RDFa is defined in terms of RDF, not in terms of a serialization of RDF ←

Unknown Ralph: ... we have to describe the result of _parsing_ and this is clearly defined ←

Unknown Ralph: ... when the result is output, the canonicalization does not apply ←

Unknown Ralph: ... the spec can say that in the abstract graph the result is canonicalized ←

Unknown Mark: but Ivan also notes that you need to preserve the namespaces [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown Ralph: ... and preserving the namespaces is exactly what canonicalization does ←

Unknown Ralph: ... it would be wrong to drop the namespaces from the XML output ←

Unknown Ben: yes, it has to be _a_ serialization, not the canonical one [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown Mark: at the start of the thread I said we could dump the namespaces on the toplevel element [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown Ben: maybe there was mis-communication [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown Mark: the 'apex' node; the [outermost] element in the fragment [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown Ralph: ... but if there's a text node then you have to scan inside it ←

Unknown Ben: so we agree that the only thing we need to do is put the namespaces somewhere so that the result yields the same canonicalization [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown Ralph: ... but then Ivan added that this is more than he wants to have to do in his parser ←

Unknown Ralph: ... so I propose that either we do the analysis on the content or drop the whole idea ←

Unknown Shane: is there a belief that the RDF that is emitted by an RDFa compatible parser needs to be isomorphic to itself in some way? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown Ralph: ... do I need to be able to turn the triples back into RDFa in some way? ←

Unknown Ralph: ... if someone were to go from RDFa to RDF and then wanted to go back to RDFa, not necessarily in the same markup (presentation information will be lost) ←

Unknown Ralph: ... if you've parsed triples out of an RDFa document you should be able to reserialize in RDFa ←

Scribe problem: the name 'benadida' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Ralph: I believe Ivan is right, the answer to Johannes is "yes, the xmlns should have been included in that test case." [ Scribe Assist by Unknown benadida ] ←

Unknown ShaneM: introduce a wrapper element with no semantics to carry the namespace declarations ←

Scribe problem: the name 'xh' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown xh: wrapper xmlns:foo= xmlns:bar= .... [ Scribe Assist by Unknown ShaneM ] ←

Unknown Manu: are we going to say that we do need to preserve the namespaces? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown Ralph: I do absolutely think we need to preserve the namespaces [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown benadida: <div xmlns:svg="..."><span property="dc:title"><p>Title</p><svg:x>...</svg:x></span></div> ←

Unknown Ben: consider the example above; the namespace is declared outside the title markup [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown Ralph: ... if we don't follow something like the XML literal rules we might loose the svg namespace ←

Unknown Mark: the xml literal starts with the SPAN [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown Ralph: ... this would make it clear that there's always an apex node ←

Unknown Ralph: ... but as Shane notes, you don't know what's going to receive your RDF data ←

Unknown msporny: <div xmlns:svg="..." property="foo:bar"><svg:x>...</svg:x><svg:y>...</svg:y><svg:z>...</svg:z></span></div> ←

Unknown Ralph: ... the good news is that we do have all the namespaces in our processing ←

Unknown Mark: the RDF Concepts spec could be read as "an XML Literal is something that could be canonicalized", not "something that _is_ canonicalized" [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown msporny: <div xmlns:svg="..." property="foo:bar"><svg:x>...</svg:x><svg:y>...</svg:y><svg:z>...</svg:z></div> ←

Unknown Ben: a wild idea ... suppose there is no apex node; there's a few pseudo-apex nodes siblings [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown Ben: if it's easy enough to put the namespaces on one apex node, let's just put them on each of the sibling nodes [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown Ralph: ... so a warning that XMLLiterals without an apex node might cause xml:lang to be lost ←

Unknown Mark: taking that line of modification, could take the DIV and call it the apex node by dropping @property [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown Ben: the resulting asymmetry between XML literal and plain literal bothers me [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown Ralph: ... you couldn't have an apex node that is different from the actual markup ←

Unknown Manu: I don't necessarily agree with the approach of using the apex node [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown Ben: it's an XML literal, just if there's no apex node we can't carry xml:lang to the toplevel text nodes. We can carry xml:lang and namespaces to the sibling elements [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown Mark: this point is also made in the RDF Concepts document [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown Ralph: ... so RDF Concepts notes you have to explicitly add an apex node to preserve xml:lang ←

Unknown Ben: so we just stuff xml:lang into as many toplevel elements as we can [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown Shane: you also have to push the default xmlns [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown Mark: you have to push all the currently in-scope namespace mappings, since you don't know which might be used [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown Manu: we're going to include the xmlns in all top-level elements of the literal? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown Manu: I agree with this. It's just a big pain to implement. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown Mark: this can be done with string parsing; it doesn't require an XML parser [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown Shane: about this solution, let's say a child element has the xmlns declaration already. we have to check if it's there. ←

ACTION: Manu to add test cases for xmlliterals with namespace preservation, including one where the xmlliteral re-declares one of the namespaces ←

PROPOSE that we resolve "the RDFa syntax does not need any change with respect to XMLLiterals. We note that the easy way to generate a valid serialization of the XMLLiteral is to dump the namespaces and xml:lang into all top-level elements of the xml literal, including xmlns, watching out for redeclarations." ←

RESOLVED the RDFa syntax does not need any change with respect to XMLLiterals. We note that the easy way to generate a valid serialization of the XMLLiteral is to dump the namespaces and xml:lang into all top-level elements of the xml literal, including xmlns, watching out for redeclarations. ←

Scribe problem: the name 'Ben_Adida' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were +1.763.767.aaaa, Ralph, ShaneM, msporny, Ben_Adida, +0208761aabb, markbirbeck, Steven ←

Scribe problem: the name 'Ben' does not match any of the 0 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names:

Scribe problem: the name 'Ralph, Ben' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

ACTION: Ben to update RDFa schedule to include CR [recorded in ACTION-01]">http://www.w3.org/2008/03/13-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-01] [1] ←

ACTION: Manu to enable EARL output in RDFa Test Harness [recorded in ACTION-13]">http://www.w3.org/2008/03/13-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-13] [2] ←

ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki [recorded in ACTION-12]">http://www.w3.org/2008/03/13-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-12] [3] ←

ACTION: Ben followup with Fabien on getting his RDFa GRDDL transform transferred to W3C [recorded in ACTION-01]">http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-01] [4] ←

ACTION: Ben to respond to ISSUE-87 [recorded in ACTION-09]">http://www.w3.org/2008/02/28-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-09] [5] ←

ACTION: Manu write a response to Christian Hoertnagl for ISSUE-7 [recorded in ACTION-09]">http://www.w3.org/2008/02/21-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-09] [6] ←

ACTION: Mark/Shane include ISSUE-89 correction in Changes section [recorded in ACTION-11]">http://www.w3.org/2008/03/06-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-11] [7] ←

ACTION: Ben to follow up on media type discussion with Steven, Ralph, and TAG [8] ←

ACTION: Manu to add test cases for xmlliterals with namespace preservation, including one where the xmlliteral re-declares one of the namespaces [9] ←

RDF in XHTML Task Force

Minutes of 20 March 2008

1. Action Review

2. Media Type / Self-Describing Web

3. Test Cases

4. XML Literal