Meeting Record

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RDF-in-XHTML Task Force

Minutes of 31 May 2007

Agenda

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007May/0060.html

Seen

Unknown Ben_Adida, Unknown Ralph, Unknown RalphS, Unknown Steven, Unknown markbirbeck, Unknown steven-617

Regrets

Unknown Shane

Chair

Unknown Ben

IRC Log

Original

Resolutions

None.

Topics

Action Item Review
Summary of Recent Presentations
State of Documents
Splitting the RDFa design into core + dialect specifics
RDFa @resource attribute

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15:00:17 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc ←

15:00:25 <RalphS> zakim, this will be rdfa

Scribe problem: the name 'RalphS' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown RalphS: zakim, this will be rdfa ←

15:00:32 <Zakim> ok, RalphS; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start now

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, RalphS; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start now ←

15:00:53 <RalphS> Meeting: RDF-in-XHTML Task Force

15:01:06 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started ←

15:01:08 <RalphS> Chair: Ben

Scribe problem: the name 'Ben' does not match any of the 0 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names:

15:01:12 <Zakim> +Ralph

Zakim IRC Bot: +Ralph ←

15:01:27 <Zakim> +Ben_Adida

Zakim IRC Bot: +Ben_Adida ←

15:01:41 <steven-617> zakim, dial me

Scribe problem: the name 'steven-617' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown steven-617: zakim, dial me ←

15:01:41 <Zakim> ok, steven-617; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, steven-617; the call is being made ←

15:01:43 <Zakim> +Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: +Steven ←

15:01:51 <steven-617> ha it worked

Unknown steven-617: ha it worked ←

15:02:14 <RalphS> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007May/0060.html

15:02:41 <Steven> zakim, who is here?

Scribe problem: the name 'Steven' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Steven: zakim, who is here? ←

15:02:41 <Zakim> On the phone I see Ralph, Ben_Adida, Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Ralph, Ben_Adida, Steven ←

15:02:42 <Zakim> On IRC I see benadida, Zakim, RRSAgent, RalphS, Steven, kwijibo_, markbirbeck, ShaneM

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see benadida, Zakim, RRSAgent, RalphS, Steven, kwijibo_, markbirbeck, ShaneM ←

15:02:51 <RalphS> Regrets: Shane

Scribe problem: the name 'Shane' does not match any of the 0 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names:

15:02:51 <Steven> Regrets+Shane

Unknown Steven: Regrets+Shane ←

15:03:13 <RalphS> Regrets+ Simone, Michael

Unknown RalphS: Regrets+ Simone, Michael ←

15:03:23 <Zakim> +??P22

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P22 ←

15:03:31 <markbirbeck> zakim, i am ?

Scribe problem: the name 'markbirbeck' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown markbirbeck: zakim, i am ? ←

15:03:31 <Zakim> +markbirbeck; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +markbirbeck; got it ←

15:04:36 <RalphS> -> http://www.w3.org/2007/04/23-rdfa-minutes previous 2007-04-23

Unknown RalphS: -> http://www.w3.org/2007/04/23-rdfa-minutes previous 2007-04-23 ←

15:05:11 <RalphS> Topic: Action Item Review

1. Action Item Review

15:05:51 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben to discuss Primer and Use Cases as Note, Syntax and Test Cases as REC, at SWD WG meeting [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/16-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]

ACTION: Ben to discuss Primer and Use Cases as Note, Syntax and Test Cases as REC, at SWD WG meeting [recorded in ACTION-14]">http://www.w3.org/2007/04/16-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-14] ←

15:06:02 <RalphS> -- done

Unknown RalphS: -- done ←

15:06:15 <RalphS> Ben: I was supposed to followup with an email summarizing the status

Scribe problem: the name 'Ben' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Ben: I was supposed to followup with an email summarizing the status [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

15:06:47 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben send email to SWD WG list summarizing RDFa document status

ACTION: Ben send email to SWD WG list summarizing RDFa document status ←

15:06:55 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben to schedule new telecon time starting May 7 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/23-rdfa-minutes.html#action18]

ACTION: Ben to schedule new telecon time starting May 7 [recorded in ACTION-18]">http://www.w3.org/2007/04/23-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-18] ←

15:06:57 <RalphS> -- done

Unknown RalphS: -- done ←

15:07:07 <RalphS> ACTION: Mark to write up a consistent story on the @SRC attribute [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/23-rdfa-minutes.html#action17]

ACTION: Mark to write up a consistent story on the @SRC attribute [recorded in ACTION-17]">http://www.w3.org/2007/04/23-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-17] ←

15:07:10 <RalphS> -- continues

Unknown RalphS: -- continues ←

15:07:48 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben start a list of RDF/XML features that are not supported by RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action01]

ACTION: Ben start a list of RDF/XML features that are not supported by RDFa [recorded in ACTION-01]">http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#ACTION-01] ←

15:07:53 <RalphS> -- continues

Unknown RalphS: -- continues ←

15:08:03 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben to ask W3C about XML-DTD validation [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/16-rdfa-minutes.html#action19]

ACTION: Ben to ask W3C about XML-DTD validation [recorded in ACTION-19]">http://www.w3.org/2007/04/16-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-19] ←

15:08:04 <RalphS> -- continues

Unknown RalphS: -- continues ←

15:08:14 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben to flesh out the schedule and present for everyone's approval next week. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/16-rdfa-minutes.html#action17]

ACTION: Ben to flesh out the schedule and present for everyone's approval next week. [recorded in ACTION-17]">http://www.w3.org/2007/04/16-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-17] ←

15:08:16 <RalphS> -- continues

Unknown RalphS: -- continues ←

15:08:26 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]

ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in ACTION-04]">http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#ACTION-04] ←

15:08:27 <RalphS> -- continues

Unknown RalphS: -- continues ←

15:08:36 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben to take a look at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Jun/0001.html to see if issue has been resolved [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/12-rdfa-minutes.html#action17]

ACTION: Ben to take a look at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Jun/0001.html to see if issue has been resolved [recorded in ACTION-17]">http://www.w3.org/2007/03/12-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-17] ←

15:08:37 <RalphS> -- continues

Unknown RalphS: -- continues ←

15:08:49 <RalphS> ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]

ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM [recorded in ACTION-10]">http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#ACTION-10] ←

15:08:59 <RalphS> ACTION: Mark produce more examples of applicability of n-ary relations from IPTC documents [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/23-htmltf-minutes.html#action08]

ACTION: Mark produce more examples of applicability of n-ary relations from IPTC documents [recorded in ACTION-08]">http://www.w3.org/2006/10/23-htmltf-minutes.html#ACTION-08] ←

15:09:14 <RalphS> -- continues

Unknown RalphS: -- continues ←

15:09:37 <RalphS> Mark: that's connected to whether we drop reification

Scribe problem: the name 'Mark' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Mark: that's connected to whether we drop reification [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

15:09:38 <RalphS> ACTION: MarkB to work rdf:label back into RDFa syntax when using @content [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action25]

ACTION: MarkB to work rdf:label back into RDFa syntax when using @content [recorded in ACTION-25]">http://www.w3.org/2007/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-25] ←

15:09:41 <RalphS> -- continues

Unknown RalphS: -- continues ←

15:09:50 <RalphS> ACTION: MichaelH to do partitioning of TCs, freeze the XHTML1.1+RDFa, and invite implementors to comment. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/16-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]

ACTION: MichaelH to do partitioning of TCs, freeze the XHTML1.1+RDFa, and invite implementors to comment. [recorded in ACTION-13]">http://www.w3.org/2007/04/16-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-13] ←

15:09:52 <RalphS> -- continues

Unknown RalphS: -- continues ←

15:09:58 <RalphS> ACTION: Steven to put together sample XHTML2 doc with all mime type, etc. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]

ACTION: Steven to put together sample XHTML2 doc with all mime type, etc. [recorded in ACTION-01]">http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#ACTION-01] ←

15:10:04 <RalphS> -- continues

Unknown RalphS: -- continues ←

15:10:27 <RalphS> ACTION: Wing add a property to the test case schema for tracking origin and approval of an individual test [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]

ACTION: Wing add a property to the test case schema for tracking origin and approval of an individual test [recorded in ACTION-11]">http://www.w3.org/2007/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-11] ←

15:10:29 <RalphS> -- continues

Unknown RalphS: -- continues ←

15:11:12 <RalphS> Topic: Summary of Recent Presentations

2. Summary of Recent Presentations

15:11:36 <RalphS> Steven: there were lots of talks in which RDFa was mentioned

Unknown Steven: there were lots of talks in which RDFa was mentioned [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

15:11:43 <RalphS> ... I noted them on rdfa.info

Unknown RalphS: ... I noted them on rdfa.info ←

15:11:51 <RalphS> ... I was pumped that there was so much going on

Unknown RalphS: ... I was pumped that there was so much going on ←

15:11:56 <RalphS> Ralph: +1

Scribe problem: the name 'Ralph' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Ralph: +1 [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

15:12:09 <RalphS> Steven: it was great to see how much was being done with RDFa

Unknown Steven: it was great to see how much was being done with RDFa [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

15:12:41 <RalphS> Ralph: there were several talks using RDFa from people I didn't know were using it

Unknown Ralph: there were several talks using RDFa from people I didn't know were using it [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

15:13:22 <RalphS> ... my reaction was 'we should just finish this quickly with minimal changes'

Unknown RalphS: ... my reaction was 'we should just finish this quickly with minimal changes' ←

15:13:53 <RalphS> Steven: we shouldn't keep it a moving target

Unknown Steven: we shouldn't keep it a moving target [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

15:14:35 <RalphS> ... Fabien mentioned RDFa in his GRDDL talk

Unknown RalphS: ... Fabien mentioned RDFa in his GRDDL talk ←

15:14:50 <RalphS> Mark: things are speeding up

Unknown Mark: things are speeding up [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

15:15:36 <RalphS> ... people doing RDF work when they want to do something that relates to HTML will consider microformats, e-RDF, and RDFa and seem to be seeing why RDFa is more useful

Unknown RalphS: ... people doing RDF work when they want to do something that relates to HTML will consider microformats, e-RDF, and RDFa and seem to be seeing why RDFa is more useful ←

15:16:11 <RalphS> ... FireFox operator support for RDFa is an indication of adoption

Unknown RalphS: ... FireFox operator support for RDFa is an indication of adoption ←

15:18:19 <RalphS> Mark: Elias' presentation was one of the clearest I've heard

Unknown Mark: Elias' presentation was one of the clearest I've heard [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

15:18:26 <RalphS> ... Elias didn't focus on the syntax

Unknown RalphS: ... Elias didn't focus on the syntax ←

15:18:53 <RalphS> ... Elias went directly to 'what does RDFa do for you?'

Unknown RalphS: ... Elias went directly to 'what does RDFa do for you?' ←

15:19:06 <RalphS> ... value proposition was very clear

Unknown RalphS: ... value proposition was very clear ←

15:19:23 <RalphS> Steven: Elias showed how easy it is to add a new vocabulary

Unknown Steven: Elias showed how easy it is to add a new vocabulary [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

15:20:10 <RalphS> ... operator adds things like add-to-calendar for microformats; Elias showed the same thing for RDFa

Unknown RalphS: ... operator adds things like add-to-calendar for microformats; Elias showed the same thing for RDFa ←

15:22:14 <RalphS> Topic: State of Documents

3. State of Documents

15:22:26 <RalphS> Ben: primer is more-or-less stable, with a few comments

Unknown Ben: primer is more-or-less stable, with a few comments [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

15:22:35 <RalphS> Steven: urgent that we add @REV

Unknown Steven: urgent that we add @REV [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

15:22:52 <RalphS> Ben: we'll likely have to add @RESOURCE also

Unknown Ben: we'll likely have to add @RESOURCE also [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

15:23:33 <RalphS> Steven: we've already decided @REV so it's high priority to include it in the primer

Unknown Steven: we've already decided @REV so it's high priority to include it in the primer [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

15:23:56 <RalphS> Steven: I'm working on the syntax document

Unknown Steven: I'm working on the syntax document [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

15:24:38 <RalphS> Ben: I can be ready to resume editing on syntax document in a couple of weeks

Unknown Ben: I can be ready to resume editing on syntax document in a couple of weeks [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

15:24:55 <RalphS> ... the source is the XMLSPEC (.xml) version

Unknown RalphS: ... the source is the XMLSPEC (.xml) version ←

15:25:30 <RalphS> Steven: the work on the syntax doc is to bring it up-to-date w.r.t. our decisions

Unknown Steven: the work on the syntax doc is to bring it up-to-date w.r.t. our decisions [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

15:25:47 <RalphS> Mark: I'm willing to help work on the syntax doc

Unknown Mark: I'm willing to help work on the syntax doc [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

15:27:09 <RalphS> Ben: we should aim to be done before November

Unknown Ben: we should aim to be done before November [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

15:27:29 <RalphS> ... if SWD has a f2f in November, that should be the last WG vote we need

Unknown RalphS: ... if SWD has a f2f in November, that should be the last WG vote we need ←

15:28:44 <RalphS> Topic: Splitting the RDFa design into core + dialect specifics

4. Splitting the RDFa design into core + dialect specifics

15:29:13 <RalphS> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007May/0031 PROPOSAL: Split RDFa into two pieces--core attributes, plus language-specific 'interpretations'

Unknown RalphS: -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007May/0031 PROPOSAL: Split RDFa into two pieces--core attributes, plus language-specific 'interpretations' ←

15:29:21 <RalphS> Mark: this proposal is more about a mindset

Unknown Mark: this proposal is more about a mindset [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

15:29:44 <RalphS> ... Ben captured the essence in one of his replies

Unknown RalphS: ... Ben captured the essence in one of his replies ←

15:30:26 <RalphS> ... having a structure may give us a framework for making decisions more quickly on issues such as @HREF everywhere

Unknown RalphS: ... having a structure may give us a framework for making decisions more quickly on issues such as @HREF everywhere ←

15:30:47 <RalphS> ... criteria for deciding

Unknown RalphS: ... criteria for deciding ←

15:31:03 <RalphS> ... propose that changing the host language is out of scope

Unknown RalphS: ... propose that changing the host language is out of scope ←

15:31:26 <Steven> q+

Unknown Steven: q+ ←

15:31:46 <RalphS> ... but we have more flexibility with new attributes we create

Unknown RalphS: ... but we have more flexibility with new attributes we create ←

15:32:25 <RalphS> ... so mindset is to distinguish between attributes that already exist in the host language and new attributes we've added

Unknown RalphS: ... so mindset is to distinguish between attributes that already exist in the host language and new attributes we've added ←

15:33:13 <RalphS> ... future host languages, e.g. XHTML2, can learn from RDFa experience and adopt features

Unknown RalphS: ... future host languages, e.g. XHTML2, can learn from RDFa experience and adopt features ←

15:33:26 <RalphS> ... core document describes key features

Unknown RalphS: ... core document describes key features ←

15:33:41 <RalphS> ... syntax document is effectively a dialect for a specific host language

Unknown RalphS: ... syntax document is effectively a dialect for a specific host language ←

15:34:49 <RalphS> Steven: concerned if the genericity would be lost; could one still implement a generic RDFa processor that is host language-independent?

Unknown Steven: concerned if the genericity would be lost; could one still implement a generic RDFa processor that is host language-independent? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

15:35:01 <RalphS> ... wouldn't like to add special rules for particular languages

Unknown RalphS: ... wouldn't like to add special rules for particular languages ←

15:35:11 <RalphS> ... not sure that it makes sense to talk about a 'host language'

Unknown RalphS: ... not sure that it makes sense to talk about a 'host language' ←

15:35:30 <RalphS> ... unless we put attributes into a separate namespace, what's the notion of a host language?

Unknown RalphS: ... unless we put attributes into a separate namespace, what's the notion of a host language? ←

15:35:40 <RalphS> ... @ABOUT doesn't exist in XHTML1.1, for example

Unknown RalphS: ... @ABOUT doesn't exist in XHTML1.1, for example ←

15:35:58 <RalphS> ... I've always viewed these as a coherent set of attributes, designed for XHTML2

Unknown RalphS: ... I've always viewed these as a coherent set of attributes, designed for XHTML2 ←

15:36:07 <RalphS> Ben: if we follow this rule, @REL everywhere also doesn't work

Unknown Ben: if we follow this rule, @REL everywhere also doesn't work [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

15:36:28 <RalphS> Mark: yes, just as you've argued against @HREF everywhere

Unknown Mark: yes, just as you've argued against @HREF everywhere [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

15:36:46 <RalphS> Ben: my argument against @HREF everywhere is that authors expect @HREF to be clickable

Unknown Ben: my argument against @HREF everywhere is that authors expect @HREF to be clickable [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

15:37:09 <Steven> q+

Unknown Steven: q+ ←

15:37:33 <RalphS> ... if there's an @HREF that is not human-navigable, does this start to make a separate RDF navigation branch different from the human-navigational branch?

Unknown RalphS: ... if there's an @HREF that is not human-navigable, does this start to make a separate RDF navigation branch different from the human-navigational branch? ←

15:37:50 <RalphS> ... @HREF on a span would only be there for RDFa, not for human navigation

Unknown RalphS: ... @HREF on a span would only be there for RDFa, not for human navigation ←

15:38:08 <RalphS> ... this is the start of parallel metadata rather than marking-up what the user already sees

Unknown RalphS: ... this is the start of parallel metadata rather than marking-up what the user already sees ←

15:38:35 <markbirbeck> q+

Unknown markbirbeck: q+ ←

15:38:46 <RalphS> Steven: I say this is a feature; if you want clickable behaviour, use A, otherwise if you're happy that it's not clickable, use some other element

Unknown Steven: I say this is a feature; if you want clickable behaviour, use A, otherwise if you're happy that it's not clickable, use some other element [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

15:39:09 <RalphS> Ben: as an HTML author, if I want to mark up existing text as data I can add @REL

Unknown Ben: as an HTML author, if I want to mark up existing text as data I can add @REL [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

15:39:24 <RalphS> ... but using @HREF on a SPAN that isn't clickable is purely for the machine, not for the human

Unknown RalphS: ... but using @HREF on a SPAN that isn't clickable is purely for the machine, not for the human ←

15:39:29 <RalphS> ... like LINK in HEAD

Unknown RalphS: ... like LINK in HEAD ←

15:39:39 <RalphS> ... separating human stuff from machine stuff

Unknown RalphS: ... separating human stuff from machine stuff ←

15:40:06 <RalphS> Steven: the semantics don't disappear; the browser could still do something, such as provide a menu

Unknown Steven: the semantics don't disappear; the browser could still do something, such as provide a menu [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

15:40:20 <RalphS> ... it only happens not to be clickable at the point in the page

Unknown RalphS: ... it only happens not to be clickable at the point in the page ←

15:40:29 <RalphS> ... if the author wanted it clickable, she would have used A

Unknown RalphS: ... if the author wanted it clickable, she would have used A ←

15:40:45 <RalphS> Mark: what's confusing to me is that the criteria for changing the syntax are currently hard to nail down

Unknown Mark: what's confusing to me is that the criteria for changing the syntax are currently hard to nail down [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

15:40:57 <RalphS> ... one person's "easy" is not easy or obvious to another

Unknown RalphS: ... one person's "easy" is not easy or obvious to another ←

15:41:31 <RalphS> ... in the past few days we've found examples, like Joost and Yahoo!, where authors are using @HREF exactly as it's intended

Unknown RalphS: ... in the past few days we've found examples, like Joost and Yahoo!, where authors are using @HREF exactly as it's intended ←

15:42:02 <RalphS> ... we're having difficulty agreeing on this, so my proposal is to rely on the host language for the interpretation

Unknown RalphS: ... we're having difficulty agreeing on this, so my proposal is to rely on the host language for the interpretation ←

15:42:09 <RalphS> ... if host language allows @REL everywhere, fine

Unknown RalphS: ... if host language allows @REL everywhere, fine ←

15:42:50 <RalphS> ... the additional attributes we invent can have more general rules

Unknown RalphS: ... the additional attributes we invent can have more general rules ←

15:43:09 <RalphS> ... so if we want @REL everywhere, we'd need to add our own REL attribute

Unknown RalphS: ... so if we want @REL everywhere, we'd need to add our own REL attribute ←

15:43:35 <RalphS> Ben: I admit there's some logical inconsistency versus starting fresh with a clean design

Unknown Ben: I admit there's some logical inconsistency versus starting fresh with a clean design [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

15:43:54 <RalphS> ... no one has said that @REL everywhere is problematic

Unknown RalphS: ... no one has said that @REL everywhere is problematic ←

15:44:22 <RalphS> Mark: but it's the same issue with @HREF everywhere

Unknown Mark: but it's the same issue with @HREF everywhere [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

15:44:48 <RalphS> Ben: I liked @RESOURCE as a solution; I think of @RESOURCE as parallel to @CONTENT

Unknown Ben: I liked @RESOURCE as a solution; I think of @RESOURCE as parallel to @CONTENT [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

15:45:12 <RalphS> ... CONTENT="..." is an indication of a need to override the human-readable text with different machine-readable version

Unknown RalphS: ... CONTENT="..." is an indication of a need to override the human-readable text with different machine-readable version ←

15:45:44 <RalphS> ... @RESOURCE is similar; the author can't easily make the human=readable form clickable

Unknown RalphS: ... @RESOURCE is similar; the author can't easily make the human=readable form clickable ←

15:45:55 <RalphS> Mark: gets into issues I didn't want to bring up right now

Unknown Mark: gets into issues I didn't want to bring up right now [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

15:46:21 <RalphS> ... rdfs:label is about preserving contents

Unknown RalphS: ... rdfs:label is about preserving contents ←

15:46:41 <RalphS> ... mirror situation is that @RESOURCE and @HREF on the same element should both be parsed

Unknown RalphS: ... mirror situation is that @RESOURCE and @HREF on the same element should both be parsed ←

15:46:57 <RalphS> ... RDFa core does not have a notion of 'clickability'

Unknown RalphS: ... RDFa core does not have a notion of 'clickability' ←

15:47:22 <RalphS> ... moving up to the HTML layer we find attributes that may have RDFa interpretations

Unknown RalphS: ... moving up to the HTML layer we find attributes that may have RDFa interpretations ←

15:47:43 <RalphS> ... we can decide which of the HTML features have an RDFa interpretation

Unknown RalphS: ... we can decide which of the HTML features have an RDFa interpretation ←

15:48:01 <RalphS> ... @REL and @REV are in HTML space and we can define their RDFa interpretation

Unknown RalphS: ... @REL and @REV are in HTML space and we can define their RDFa interpretation ←

15:48:27 <RalphS> ... the profile (dialect) can say whether @REL is permitted everywhere

Unknown RalphS: ... the profile (dialect) can say whether @REL is permitted everywhere ←

15:49:06 <RalphS> Ben: trying to consider this from the viewpoint of HTML, acknowledging that I'm not an HTML expert ...

Unknown Ben: trying to consider this from the viewpoint of HTML, acknowledging that I'm not an HTML expert ... [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

15:49:25 <RalphS> ... consider a chunk of HTML today that has <SPAN HREF="...">

Unknown RalphS: ... consider a chunk of HTML today that has <SPAN HREF="..."> ←

15:49:31 <RalphS> ... today that is not clickable.

Unknown RalphS: ... today that is not clickable. ←

15:49:43 <RalphS> ... if it becomes clickable in XHTML2, that might not be what I wanted

Unknown RalphS: ... if it becomes clickable in XHTML2, that might not be what I wanted ←

15:50:06 <RalphS> Steven: 'clickable' does not necessarily mean the XHTML2 browser would render it in blue with an underline

Unknown Steven: 'clickable' does not necessarily mean the XHTML2 browser would render it in blue with an underline [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

15:50:22 <RalphS> ... don't confuse the ability to dereference an @HREF with the rendering presentation

Unknown RalphS: ... don't confuse the ability to dereference an @HREF with the rendering presentation ←

15:50:33 <RalphS> ... only A would give blue underlined presentation

Unknown RalphS: ... only A would give blue underlined presentation ←

15:50:43 <RalphS> Mark: I think @RESOURCE is the best solution anyway

Unknown Mark: I think @RESOURCE is the best solution anyway [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

15:51:02 <RalphS> ... if we have @HREF as the definer of the object then we have no way of defining an object that is not clickable

Unknown RalphS: ... if we have @HREF as the definer of the object then we have no way of defining an object that is not clickable ←

15:51:10 <RalphS> ... so reintroducing @RESORUCE gets us out of this

Unknown RalphS: ... so reintroducing @RESORUCE gets us out of this ←

15:51:45 <RalphS> ... more broadly, it would help us to have a better sense of which level we're playing with when we discuss a change

Unknown RalphS: ... more broadly, it would help us to have a better sense of which level we're playing with when we discuss a change ←

15:52:13 <RalphS> Ben: every time we've been forced to compromise; @REL has felt so 'right' to many people

Unknown Ben: every time we've been forced to compromise; @REL has felt so 'right' to many people [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

15:52:23 <RalphS> ... we've had to deal with varied expectations of HTML

Unknown RalphS: ... we've had to deal with varied expectations of HTML ←

15:52:43 <RalphS> ... and we have had to consider the general public's reaction even if we don't know how to measure it very carefully

Unknown RalphS: ... and we have had to consider the general public's reaction even if we don't know how to measure it very carefully ←

15:53:13 <RalphS> Mark: I'm not necessarily opposed to @REL everywhere, just trying to point out the proposed core principle

Unknown Mark: I'm not necessarily opposed to @REL everywhere, just trying to point out the proposed core principle [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

15:53:47 <RalphS> ... I'm suggesting that @REL should not be a core RDFa attribute; it remains an HTML attribute to which we give an RDFa interpretation

Unknown RalphS: ... I'm suggesting that @REL should not be a core RDFa attribute; it remains an HTML attribute to which we give an RDFa interpretation ←

15:54:21 <RalphS> ... and instruct Shane that when he produces a DTD, in addition to adding @ABOUT, etc., he permits @REL, @REV everywhere

Unknown RalphS: ... and instruct Shane that when he produces a DTD, in addition to adding @ABOUT, etc., he permits @REL, @REV everywhere ←

15:54:44 <RalphS> ... we don't necessarily have to restructure the documents to identify 'core' vs. 'host' features

Unknown RalphS: ... we don't necessarily have to restructure the documents to identify 'core' vs. 'host' features ←

15:55:28 <RalphS> ... currently the only cases where we modify HTML are @REL and @REV everywhere

Unknown RalphS: ... currently the only cases where we modify HTML are @REL and @REV everywhere ←

15:56:24 <RalphS> Ben: what will the XHTML2 specification recommend to browsers when they find @HREF on a SPAN?

Unknown Ben: what will the XHTML2 specification recommend to browsers when they find @HREF on a SPAN? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

15:56:49 <RalphS> Steven: the browser shouldl make the @HREF accessible in some way but not as a blue underline; only A should render as a blue underline

Unknown Steven: the browser shouldl make the @HREF accessible in some way but not as a blue underline; only A should render as a blue underline [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

15:56:58 <RalphS> Ben: that makes me more comfortable

Unknown Ben: that makes me more comfortable [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

15:57:26 <RalphS> ... but if RDFa proposes @HREF everywhere that still feels like we're stepping into the scope of HTML

Unknown RalphS: ... but if RDFa proposes @HREF everywhere that still feels like we're stepping into the scope of HTML ←

15:57:45 <RalphS> ... whereas @REL everywhere doesn't have any [rendering] behavior

Unknown RalphS: ... whereas @REL everywhere doesn't have any [rendering] behavior ←

15:58:25 <RalphS> Topic: RDFa @resource attribute

5. RDFa @resource attribute

15:58:33 <RalphS> Ben: there seems to be support for this on the list

Unknown Ben: there seems to be support for this on the list [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

15:58:40 <RalphS> Steven: I see it as a complication

Unknown Steven: I see it as a complication [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

15:58:57 <RalphS> ... sometimes you have to use @resource and sometimes @href so you need a rule to know which to use

Unknown RalphS: ... sometimes you have to use @resource and sometimes @href so you need a rule to know which to use ←

15:59:04 <RalphS> Mark: I'm suggesting that both would be parsed

Unknown Mark: I'm suggesting that both would be parsed [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

15:59:32 <RalphS> Steven: I prefer to use @HREF everywhere

Unknown Steven: I prefer to use @HREF everywhere [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

15:59:47 <RalphS> ... we can't ask for this behavior in XHTML 1.1

Unknown RalphS: ... we can't ask for this behavior in XHTML 1.1 ←

16:00:20 <RalphS> ... all that's happening in XHTML2 is that the spec will ask the browser to let the user do _something_ with @HREF on SPAM

Unknown RalphS: ... all that's happening in XHTML2 is that the spec will ask the browser to let the user do _something_ with @HREF on SPAN ←

16:00:25 <RalphS> s/SPAM/SPAN/

16:00:41 <RalphS> ... XHTML2 will just make the content a little more accessible to users

Unknown RalphS: ... XHTML2 will just make the content a little more accessible to users ←

16:00:53 <RalphS> Mark: but there would be no way to create a non-clickable resource

Unknown Mark: but there would be no way to create a non-clickable resource [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

16:01:15 <RalphS> ... Ben argued at length against having to repeat the data in @HREF

Unknown RalphS: ... Ben argued at length against having to repeat the data in @HREF ←

16:01:29 <RalphS> ... my view now is that @HREF is a special case of @RESOURCE

Unknown RalphS: ... my view now is that @HREF is a special case of @RESOURCE ←

16:01:42 <RalphS> ... @RESOURCE is abstract, purely about the metadata

Unknown RalphS: ... @RESOURCE is abstract, purely about the metadata ←

16:01:56 <RalphS> ... @HREF makes it accessible to the user

Unknown RalphS: ... @HREF makes it accessible to the user ←

16:04:31 <RalphS> Steven: perhaps we need a URI scheme that signals that something is *not* dereferencable?

Unknown Steven: perhaps we need a URI scheme that signals that something is *not* dereferencable? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

16:04:39 <RalphS> Ralph: I hope you mean that as a joke

Unknown Ralph: I hope you mean that as a joke [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

16:04:54 <RalphS> ... perhaps we have different notions of what "dereference" means

Unknown RalphS: ... perhaps we have different notions of what "dereference" means ←

16:05:12 <RalphS> Ben: let's progress the discussion in mail

Unknown Ben: let's progress the discussion in mail [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

16:05:50 <RalphS> Ralph: do we have a clear place where our open issues are documented?

Unknown Ralph: do we have a clear place where our open issues are documented? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

16:05:57 <RalphS> Ben: We're using tracker

Unknown Ben: We're using tracker [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

16:06:29 <benadida> ACTION: Ben to review tracker issues and add @resource, @href, @src, profile if not there already

ACTION: Ben to review tracker issues and add @resource, @href, @src, profile if not there already ←

16:07:23 <Zakim> -Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: -Steven ←

16:07:23 <RalphS> next meeting: next week, same time

Unknown RalphS: next meeting: next week, same time ←

16:07:24 <Zakim> -markbirbeck

Zakim IRC Bot: -markbirbeck ←

16:07:24 <Zakim> -Ben_Adida

Scribe problem: the name 'Ben_Adida' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Zakim IRC Bot: -Ben_Adida ←

16:07:34 <RalphS> (i.e. June 7)

Unknown RalphS: (i.e. June 7) ←

16:07:38 <RalphS> [adjourned]

Unknown RalphS: [adjourned] ←

16:07:41 <Zakim> -Ralph

Zakim IRC Bot: -Ralph ←

16:07:44 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended ←

16:07:45 <Zakim> Attendees were Ralph, Ben_Adida, Steven, markbirbeck

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were Ralph, Ben_Adida, Steven, markbirbeck ←

16:07:49 <RalphS> rrsagent, please make record public

Unknown RalphS: rrsagent, please make record public ←

16:07:53 <RalphS> rrsagent, please draft minutes

Unknown RalphS: rrsagent, please draft minutes ←

16:07:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-minutes.html RalphS

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-minutes.html RalphS ←

16:08:48 <RalphS> rrsagent, bye

Unknown RalphS: rrsagent, bye ←

16:08:48 <RRSAgent> I see 16 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-actions.rdf :

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see 16 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-actions.rdf : ←

16:08:48 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to discuss Primer and Use Cases as Note, Syntax and Test Cases as REC, at SWD WG meeting [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/16-rdfa-minutes.html#action14] [1]

ACTION: Ben to discuss Primer and Use Cases as Note, Syntax and Test Cases as REC, at SWD WG meeting [recorded in ACTION-14]">http://www.w3.org/2007/04/16-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-14] [1] ←

16:08:48 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc#T15-05-51

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc#T15-05-51 ←

16:08:48 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben send email to SWD WG list summarizing RDFa document status [2]

ACTION: Ben send email to SWD WG list summarizing RDFa document status [2] ←

16:08:48 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc#T15-06-47

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc#T15-06-47 ←

16:08:48 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to schedule new telecon time starting May 7 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/23-rdfa-minutes.html#action18] [3]

ACTION: Ben to schedule new telecon time starting May 7 [recorded in ACTION-18]">http://www.w3.org/2007/04/23-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-18] [3] ←

16:08:48 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc#T15-06-55

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc#T15-06-55 ←

16:08:48 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Mark to write up a consistent story on the @SRC attribute [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/23-rdfa-minutes.html#action17] [4]

ACTION: Mark to write up a consistent story on the @SRC attribute [recorded in ACTION-17]">http://www.w3.org/2007/04/23-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-17] [4] ←

16:08:48 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc#T15-07-07

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc#T15-07-07 ←

16:08:48 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben start a list of RDF/XML features that are not supported by RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action01] [5]

ACTION: Ben start a list of RDF/XML features that are not supported by RDFa [recorded in ACTION-01]">http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#ACTION-01] [5] ←

16:08:48 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc#T15-07-48

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc#T15-07-48 ←

16:08:48 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to ask W3C about XML-DTD validation [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/16-rdfa-minutes.html#action19] [6]

ACTION: Ben to ask W3C about XML-DTD validation [recorded in ACTION-19]">http://www.w3.org/2007/04/16-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-19] [6] ←

16:08:48 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc#T15-08-03

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc#T15-08-03 ←

16:08:48 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to flesh out the schedule and present for everyone's approval next week. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/16-rdfa-minutes.html#action17] [7]

ACTION: Ben to flesh out the schedule and present for everyone's approval next week. [recorded in ACTION-17]">http://www.w3.org/2007/04/16-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-17] [7] ←

16:08:48 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc#T15-08-14

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc#T15-08-14 ←

16:08:48 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04] [8]

ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in ACTION-04]">http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#ACTION-04] [8] ←

16:08:48 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc#T15-08-26

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc#T15-08-26 ←

16:08:48 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to take a look at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Jun/0001.html to see if issue has been resolved [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/12-rdfa-minutes.html#action17] [9]

16:08:48 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc#T15-08-36

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc#T15-08-36 ←

16:08:48 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10] [10]

ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM [recorded in ACTION-10]">http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#ACTION-10] [10] ←

16:08:48 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc#T15-08-49

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc#T15-08-49 ←

16:08:48 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Mark produce more examples of applicability of n-ary relations from IPTC documents [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/23-htmltf-minutes.html#action08] [11]

ACTION: Mark produce more examples of applicability of n-ary relations from IPTC documents [recorded in ACTION-08]">http://www.w3.org/2006/10/23-htmltf-minutes.html#ACTION-08] [11] ←

16:08:48 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc#T15-08-59

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc#T15-08-59 ←

16:08:48 <RRSAgent> ACTION: MarkB to work rdf:label back into RDFa syntax when using @content [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action25] [12]

ACTION: MarkB to work rdf:label back into RDFa syntax when using @content [recorded in ACTION-25]">http://www.w3.org/2007/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-25] [12] ←

16:08:48 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc#T15-09-38

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc#T15-09-38 ←

16:08:48 <RRSAgent> ACTION: MichaelH to do partitioning of TCs, freeze the XHTML1.1+RDFa, and invite implementors to comment. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/16-rdfa-minutes.html#action13] [13]

ACTION: MichaelH to do partitioning of TCs, freeze the XHTML1.1+RDFa, and invite implementors to comment. [recorded in ACTION-13]">http://www.w3.org/2007/04/16-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-13] [13] ←

16:08:48 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc#T15-09-50

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc#T15-09-50 ←

16:08:48 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Steven to put together sample XHTML2 doc with all mime type, etc. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action01] [14]

ACTION: Steven to put together sample XHTML2 doc with all mime type, etc. [recorded in ACTION-01]">http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#ACTION-01] [14] ←

16:08:48 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc#T15-09-58

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc#T15-09-58 ←

16:08:48 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Wing add a property to the test case schema for tracking origin and approval of an individual test [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html#action11] [15]

ACTION: Wing add a property to the test case schema for tracking origin and approval of an individual test [recorded in ACTION-11]">http://www.w3.org/2007/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-11] [15] ←

16:08:48 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc#T15-10-27

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc#T15-10-27 ←

16:08:48 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to review tracker issues and add @resource, @href, @src, profile if not there already [16]

ACTION: Ben to review tracker issues and add @resource, @href, @src, profile if not there already [16] ←

16:08:48 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc#T16-06-29

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc#T16-06-29 ←

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