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Scribe problem: the name 'RalphS' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, RalphS; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)9:00AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes ←

Scribe problem: the name 'Steven_' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'mhausenblas' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Steven, mhausenblas, Shane, Ralph, Mark, Ben_Adida ←

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see benadida, ShaneM, Steven_, mhausenblas, RRSAgent, Zakim, RalphS ←

Scribe problem: the name 'Wing' does not match any of the 0 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names:

Scribe problem: the name 'Ben' does not match any of the 0 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names:

Scribe problem: the name 'benadida' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Zakim IRC Bot: Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Ralph ←

Scribe problem: the name 'Ralph' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'ralphs' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'Ben' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Ben: I am moving to California, so would appreciate a later telecon time [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

ACTION: MarkB to work rdf:label back into RDFa syntax when using @content [recorded in ACTION-25]">http://www.w3.org/2007/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-25] ←

Scribe problem: the name 'Mark' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Mark: can make a proposal in email [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

ACTION: Wing add a property to the test case schema for tracking origin and approval of an individual test [recorded in ACTION-11]">http://www.w3.org/2007/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-11] ←

Unknown Ralph: Wing wanted a reminder to actually update the documents [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

ACTION: Ben start a list of RDF/XML features that are not supported by RDFa [recorded in ACTION-01]">http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#ACTION-01] ←

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, Steven_, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you ←

Scribe problem: the name 'Michael' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Michael: I was planning to get back to this after test suite work [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

ACTION: Ben to include agenda item for approval of existing tests [recorded in ACTION-02]">http://www.w3.org/2007/03/12-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-02] ←

ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in ACTION-04]">http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#ACTION-04] ←

Unknown Ben: I do have regular conversations with Science Commons. Thus far nothing has come up that's not already covered in Use Cases [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

Unknown Ben: I'd like to look over the open issues I extracted and confirm they are still open [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

Unknown Michael: regarding use cases, I saw a solicitation for summer interns [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

Unknown Ben: I do continue to prod Science Commons to sponsor more RDFa-related projects [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

Scribe problem: the name 'Steven' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Michael: I'd like to see some tools for generating RDFa from templates [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

ACTION: Elias to look for cases where plain literal is more of a common use. [recorded in ACTION-24]">http://www.w3.org/2007/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-24] ←

ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM [recorded in ACTION-10]">http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#ACTION-10] ←

ACTION: Mark produce more examples of applicability of n-ary relations from IPTC documents [recorded in ACTION-08]">http://www.w3.org/2006/10/23-htmltf-minutes.html#ACTION-08] ←

ACTION: Steven to put together sample XHTML2 doc with all mime type, etc. [recorded in ACTION-01]">http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#ACTION-01] ←

Unknown Ben: Mike Linksvayer, CTO of Creative Commons, sent mail asking what DOCTYPE declaration would appear [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

Unknown Steven: I think that's just a naming issue [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

Scribe problem: the name 'Shane' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Shane: modularization works by creating a hybrid document type with its own DOCTYPE declaration [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

Unknown Ralph: Mike Linksvayer's question is exactly ISSUE-28 [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

Scribe problem: the name 'ShaneM' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

ACTION: MarkB to ask Shane to make his document public [recorded in ACTION-23]">http://www.w3.org/2007/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-23] ←

Unknown Shane: I did not realize that there was a problem with using the HTML Member-only area [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

Unknown Steven: part of the XHTML2 WG transition will be to move all our drafts to public space [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

Unknown Shane: there are some outstanding actions the XHTML2 WG wants to address [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

Unknown RalphS: ... a module is like a function library; it's a freestanding list of components ←

Unknown RalphS: ... architecturally it was gratifying to see that stuff designed back in 1999 does support this ←

Unknown RalphS: ... I believe this is correctly implemented both as DTD and XML Schema ←

Unknown RalphS: ... I feel this is ready to go public, module a handful of issues I posted to the XHTML2 WG ←

Unknown RalphS: ... I expect the XHTML2 WG can resolve these within a couple of days ←

Unknown Steven: this will work out-of-the-box in the W3C HTML validator [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

Unknown RalphS: ... but we should warn the W3C Webmaster that we're going to use this ←

Unknown Ben: will it be a dropdown in the validator? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

Unknown Shane: as an exercise, I temporarily changed the System Identifier in a test document to something known to the W3C validator and it did access the DTD [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

Unknown Ben: what are the consequences of viewing a document like this in current browsers? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

Unknown Steven: a DTD declaration does trigger "standards mode" in deployed browsers but they don't complain [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

Unknown RalphS: ... obviously, they don't do anything with hrefs on other elements ←

Unknown RalphS: ... and the DOM won't necessarily contain all the attributes ←

Unknown Ben: what's the reason for allowing href everywhere in this module? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

Unknown Steven: RDFa needs it, like @rel everywhere [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

Unknown Ben: just to be devil's advocate, <li href=..."> won't appear as a link [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

Unknown Steven: right, but the syntax document specifies it [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

Unknown Ben: I thought we were not going to try to add @href everywhere for XHTML 1.1 module [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

Unknown Steven: yes, a long time ago we thought it wouldn't be possible but Shane figured out how to do it [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

Unknown Ben: but if @href is not rendered as a link, should we still do it? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

Unknown Steven: I don't see it as a problem [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

Unknown RalphS: ... people shouldn't expect @href to render as a link everywhere, just with A ←

Unknown Ben: I expect some negative feedback on that [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

Unknown Shane: The RDFa spec does not require every @HREF to be clickable [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

Unknown Ralph: it might make sense to revisit our expectations w.r.t @HREF everywhere and what would render as clickable [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

Unknown ShaneM: Actually, the xhtml-rdfa spec requires that conforming user agents make @href clickable. ←

Scribe problem: the name 'markbirbeck' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown RalphS: ... but I understood our goals for the XHTML 1.1 module as "do as much as we could of the full design with the constraints of 1.1 modularizaion" ←

Unknown RalphS: ... so I'm pleased if Shane has found a way to support more of the full design ←

Unknown Ben: [example of DIV, with bnode becoming the triple object] [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

Unknown Mark: in the XHTML2 WG discussion, some things were added back in the 1.1 module that this TF had removed thinking it couldn't be done [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

Unknown Mark: should we try to put in all the features we can and then add a separate issue on creating a lighter profile? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

Unknown RalphS: ... we can discuss whether we need a lighter profile that conforms more closely to HTML ←

Unknown Ben: yes, that's exactly my concern [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

Unknown RalphS: ... even if our DTD allows META in the body, current browsers will relocate the elements in the DOM to the head ←

Unknown RalphS: ... @HREF on non-anchor elements is a different, lesser, kind of conflict with HTML but may still cause unexpected results ←

Unknown Mark: the idea is to say "if you form your document in this way, it will work in the following environments" [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

Unknown RalphS: ... recent conversation with Dave Raggett about server-side processing ←

Unknown RalphS: ... rather than going to the lowest common denominator, let's consider [profile] guidelines ←

Unknown Michael: sounds like 'levels' to me [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

Unknown RalphS: ... I'd like to see semweb agents being able to see more @HREF objects ←

Unknown Steven: regarding META and LINK in body ... [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

Unknown RalphS: ... a few weeks ago a concern was raised about relying on elements in the XHTML namespace ←

Unknown RalphS: ... there's still room in the design space there; I'd like to investigate decoupling these more ←

Unknown Ben: from the viewpoint of an HTML author, I would find it surprising that RDFa would change how things are expected to be rendered [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

Unknown Steven: what rendering do you think will change? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

Unknown Ben: an HTML author will think of RDFa only as an extension to add metadata [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

Unknown ShaneM: xhtml-rdfa says: "ctuation occurs as the default action of a [DOM] DOMActivate event for the element on which the attribute occurs (for instance as the result of the user clicking on the associated element). If elements contained within an element using an href also use an href attribute, the User Agent must provide a mechanism for actuating any of these "nested" URIs." ←

Unknown Ralph: if we permit HTML authors to add @HREF now and understand that it doesn't change rendering, then if XHTML2 later comes along and makes all @HREFs clickable, will we create traps for document authors? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

Unknown Steven: I believe the spec does and should specify somewhere that all @HREFs are dereferenceable [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

Unknown Mark: the question is whether XHTML2 specifying that all @HREFs are clickable should carry forward to RDfa [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

Unknown RalphS: ... not sure this causes the kind of shock Ralph is describing ←

Unknown Ben: the way we have pitched RDFa is to add structure to marked-up HTML [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

Unknown RalphS: ... with adding @HREF everywhere in a 1.1 module, we're doing more than just adding structure ←

Unknown RalphS: ... I'd prefer sticking with 'wherever @HREF is currently permitted, RDFa adds structure' ←

Unknown RalphS: ... I worry about people who understand HTML in a certain way now ←

Unknown Ralph: I suggest a new open issue "Should we allow @HREF everywhere?" [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

Unknown Mark: the real question is "Should @HREF everywhere be clickable?" [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

Unknown Shane: I'd make that more specific -- should a conforming user agent make all @HREFs clickabale? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

ACTION: Ben to add issue to issues list and start discussion with previous reference and issue reference ←

Unknown Mark: the link Michael cited is to an already-resolved issue [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

Unknown Ben: in February 2006 we weren't talking about XHTML 1.1 [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

Unknown Shane: yes, we were not envisioning this for XHTML 1.1 a year ago [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

Unknown Mark: I can include RDFa in my [W3C track] talk [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

Unknown Steven: RDFa is a part of xh, right? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

Unknown Ben: will you show some copy-and-paste examples with in-context RDFa? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

Unknown RalphS: ... the fact that you can right-click and get triples in context should be shown ←

Unknown RalphS: ... I'm still considering how far to go in describing similarities with microformats and all the things that FireFox plug-ins currently do with microformats ←

Unknown Michael: it would be helpful to encourage people who plan to use RDFa to help with promotion [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

Unknown Ben: I have to cancel my WWW2007 attendance due to my house move [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

Unknown Ben: next week is Easter holiday in Europe [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

Unknown Ralph: regrets for 16 April; it's a Massachusetts holiday and I'll be helping at the Boston Marathon [ Scribe Assist by Unknown RalphS ] ←

Unknown RalphS: [DONE] ACTION: Mark produce RDFa XHTML 1.1 module and spec [recorded in ACTION-06]">http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes.html#ACTION-06] ←

Unknown RalphS: [DONE] ACTION: Mark produce RDFa XHTML 1.1 module using XML Schema [recorded in ACTION-06]">http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes.html#ACTION-06] ←

Scribe problem: the name 'Ben_Adida' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were Steven, +043316876aaaa, mhausenblas, Ralph, Shane, +44.442.076.89.aabb, Mark, Ben_Adida ←

RDF-in-XHTML TF

Minutes of 02 April 2007

1. Convene

2. Action Items

3. XHTML 1.1 Module for RDFa

4. WWW2007