edit

RDF Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 22 May 2013

Agenda
http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2013.05.22
Seen
Andy Seaborne, Antoine Zimmermann, Arnaud Le Hors, Charles Greer, David Wood, Eric Prud'hommeaux, Gavin Carothers, Gregg Kellogg, Guus Schreiber, Ivan Herman, Manu Sporny, Patrick Hayes, Peter Patel-Schneider, Sandro Hawke, Souripriya Das, Yves Raimond
Chair
Guus Schreiber
Scribe
Peter Patel-Schneider
IRC Log
Original
Resolutions
  1. accept minutes of last meeting link
  2. resolution about blank nodes from last week [ http://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/rdf-wg/2013-05-15#resolution_2 ] is withdrawn and ISSUE-131 is opened to track the question link
  3. The value space of rdf:langString has the language tag in lower case; in the lexical form, the language tag MAY be converted to lower case (as RDF 1.0 says, but not everyone does). link
Topics
14:57:54 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/05/22-rdf-wg-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/05/22-rdf-wg-irc

14:57:56 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world

14:57:58 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 73394

14:57:58 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes

14:57:59 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
14:57:59 <trackbot> Date: 22 May 2013
14:58:20 <Guus> chair: Guus
15:00:28 <Arnaud> Arnaud has changed the topic to: RDF WG -- current agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2013.05.22

Arnaud Le Hors: Arnaud has changed the topic to: RDF WG -- current agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2013.05.22

15:00:48 <AZ> akim, who is here?

Antoine Zimmermann: akim, who is here?

15:00:52 <AZ> Zakim, who is here?

Antoine Zimmermann: Zakim, who is here?

15:00:52 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, AZ

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, AZ

15:00:53 <Zakim> On IRC I see ScottB, Arnaud, pfps, AZ, gkellogg, Zakim, RRSAgent, Guus, ivan, AndyS, davidwood, gavinc, manu1, sandro, trackbot, yvesr, manu, ericP, mischat

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see ScottB, Arnaud, pfps, AZ, gkellogg, Zakim, RRSAgent, Guus, ivan, AndyS, davidwood, gavinc, manu1, sandro, trackbot, yvesr, manu, ericP, mischat

15:00:56 <pfps> zakim, this is rdf-wg

Peter Patel-Schneider: zakim, this is rdf-wg

15:00:56 <Zakim> sorry, pfps, I do not see a conference named 'rdf-wg' in progress or scheduled at this time

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, pfps, I do not see a conference named 'rdf-wg' in progress or scheduled at this time

15:01:12 <Guus> zakim, this will be 73394

Guus Schreiber: zakim, this will be 73394

15:01:12 <Zakim> ok, Guus; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start now

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Guus; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start now

15:01:27 <sandro> trackbot, start meeting

Sandro Hawke: trackbot, start meeting

15:01:28 <pfps> zakim, who is here?

Peter Patel-Schneider: zakim, who is here?

15:01:28 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, pfps

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, pfps

15:01:29 <Zakim> On IRC I see ScottB, Arnaud, pfps, AZ, gkellogg, Zakim, RRSAgent, Guus, ivan, AndyS, davidwood, gavinc, manu1, sandro, trackbot, yvesr, manu, ericP, mischat

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see ScottB, Arnaud, pfps, AZ, gkellogg, Zakim, RRSAgent, Guus, ivan, AndyS, davidwood, gavinc, manu1, sandro, trackbot, yvesr, manu, ericP, mischat

15:01:30 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world

15:01:32 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 73394

15:01:32 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start now

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start now

15:01:33 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
15:01:33 <trackbot> Date: 22 May 2013
15:01:51 <AndyS> zakim, this is 73394

Andy Seaborne: zakim, this is 73394

15:01:51 <Zakim> ok, AndyS; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, AndyS; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM

15:02:02 <Zakim> +gkellogg

Zakim IRC Bot: +gkellogg

15:02:06 <AndyS> zakim, who is on the phone?

Andy Seaborne: zakim, who is on the phone?

15:02:06 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus_Schreiber, ??P15, pfps, GavinC, Sandro, [IPcaller], gkellogg

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Guus_Schreiber, ??P15, pfps, GavinC, Sandro, [IPcaller], gkellogg

15:02:19 <AndyS> zakim, IPcaller is me

Andy Seaborne: zakim, IPcaller is me

15:02:19 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it

15:02:26 <AZ> Zakim, ??P15 is me

Antoine Zimmermann: Zakim, ??P15 is me

15:02:26 <Zakim> +AZ; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AZ; got it

15:02:30 <Guus> zakim, ??P15 is AZ

Guus Schreiber: zakim, ??P15 is AZ

15:02:30 <Zakim> I already had ??P15 as AZ, Guus

Zakim IRC Bot: I already had ??P15 as AZ, Guus

15:03:19 <Zakim> +Ivan

Zakim IRC Bot: +Ivan

15:03:21 <Zakim> +Arnaud

Zakim IRC Bot: +Arnaud

15:03:22 <Zakim> +davidwood

Zakim IRC Bot: +davidwood

15:04:39 <pfps> i can scribe if necessary

Peter Patel-Schneider: i can scribe if necessary

15:05:04 <pfps> scribenick: pfps

(Scribe set to Peter Patel-Schneider)

15:05:32 <Zakim> +??P30

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P30

15:05:56 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P30 is me

Yves Raimond: Zakim, ??P30 is me

15:05:56 <Zakim> +yvesr; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +yvesr; got it

15:06:23 <Zakim> +Souri

Zakim IRC Bot: +Souri

15:06:28 <ivan> http://www.w3.org/2008/04/scribe.html

Ivan Herman: http://www.w3.org/2008/04/scribe.html

15:06:48 <gkellogg> http://www.w3.org/2009/CommonScribe/manual.html

Gregg Kellogg: http://www.w3.org/2009/CommonScribe/manual.html

15:06:52 <AndyS> agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2013.05.22
15:06:56 <pfps> scribe: pfps
15:06:59 <Zakim> + +1.707.874.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.707.874.aaaa

15:07:08 <pfps> topic: Admin

1. Admin

15:07:08 <cgreer> zakim, aaaa is me

Charles Greer: zakim, aaaa is me

15:07:08 <Zakim> +cgreer; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +cgreer; got it

15:07:26 <pfps> subtopic: Minutes

1.1. Minutes

15:07:46 <pfps> proposed: accept minutes of last meeting minus one resolution (see agenda)

PROPOSED: accept minutes of last meeting minus one resolution (see agenda)

15:07:49 <AZ> "There are some format problems with the chatlog" it says

Antoine Zimmermann: "There are some format problems with the chatlog" it says

15:08:12 <pfps> PROPOSED: accept minutes of last meeting minus one resolution (see agenda)

PROPOSED: accept minutes of last meeting minus one resolution (see agenda)

15:08:38 <pfps> pfps: minutes looked acceptable to me

Peter Patel-Schneider: minutes looked acceptable to me

15:08:56 <pfps> RESOLVED: accept minutes of last meeting

RESOLVED: accept minutes of last meeting

15:09:43 <AndyS> So we are opening issue-131 then?  It's just "raised" currently.

Andy Seaborne: So we are opening ISSUE-131 then? It's just "raised" currently.

15:10:00 <pfps> guus: resolution about blank nodes as graph names should be withdrawn

Guus Schreiber: resolution about blank nodes as graph names should be withdrawn

15:10:19 <sandro> guus: I'll make issue-131 "open"

Guus Schreiber: I'll make ISSUE-131 "open" [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:10:20 <Zakim> +??P7

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P7

15:10:28 <manu> zakim, I am ??P7

Manu Sporny: zakim, I am ??P7

15:10:28 <Zakim> +manu; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +manu; got it

15:10:29 <Zakim> +PatH

Zakim IRC Bot: +PatH

15:10:36 <Arnaud> I fixed the formatting errors in the minutes of May 15

Arnaud Le Hors: I fixed the formatting errors in the minutes of May 15

15:11:10 <pfps> guus: resolution about blank nodes from last week is withdrawn and ISSUE-131 is opened to track the question

Guus Schreiber: resolution about blank nodes from last week is withdrawn and ISSUE-131 is opened to track the question

15:11:10 <pfps> RESOLVED: resolution about blank nodes from last week [ http://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/rdf-wg/2013-05-15#resolution_2 ] is withdrawn and ISSUE-131 is opened to track the question

RESOLVED: resolution about blank nodes from last week [ http://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/rdf-wg/2013-05-15#resolution_2 ] is withdrawn and ISSUE-131 is opened to track the question

15:11:21 <manu> zakim, who is making noise?

Manu Sporny: zakim, who is making noise?

15:11:32 <Zakim> manu, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Guus_Schreiber (14%), AndyS (100%), davidwood (9%)

Zakim IRC Bot: manu, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Guus_Schreiber (14%), AndyS (100%), davidwood (9%)

15:12:02 <pfps> subtopic: Actions

1.2. Actions

15:12:26 <pfps> pfps: I pushed quite a few actions to pending review - they all should be done by recent edits to Concepts or Semantics

Peter Patel-Schneider: I pushed quite a few actions to pending review - they all should be done by recent edits to Concepts or Semantics

15:12:56 <gavinc> Close ACTION-260

Gavin Carothers: Close ACTION-260

15:12:56 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-260 Gather data for resolving the turtle feature-at-risk..

Trackbot IRC Bot: Closed ACTION-260 Gather data for resolving the turtle feature-at-risk..

15:13:51 <sandro> close action-264

Sandro Hawke: close ACTION-264

15:13:51 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-264 Find the history and suggest phrasing for Concepts.

Trackbot IRC Bot: Closed ACTION-264 Find the history and suggest phrasing for Concepts.

15:13:52 <pfps> Close ACTION-264

Close ACTION-264

15:13:52 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-264 Find the history and suggest phrasing for Concepts.

Trackbot IRC Bot: Closed ACTION-264 Find the history and suggest phrasing for Concepts.

15:14:01 <pfps> sandro: action 264 is obsolete

Sandro Hawke: ACTION-264 is obsolete

15:14:24 <pfps> guus:  please record status in action note

Guus Schreiber: please record status in action note

15:14:34 <pfps> Topic: Concepts and Semantics LC drafts

2. Concepts and Semantics LC drafts

15:15:01 <pfps> Pat: Semantics needs some work to account for comments from peter

Patrick Hayes: Semantics needs some work to account for comments from peter

15:15:42 <pfps> Peter: I looked over Concepts and it looks in good shape, modulo one issue

Peter Patel-Schneider: I looked over Concepts and it looks in good shape, modulo one issue

15:16:25 <pfps> Guus: ISSUE-131 and language tags, language tags first

Guus Schreiber: ISSUE-131 and language tags, language tags first

15:17:01 <sandro> topic: Language Tags

3. Language Tags

15:17:52 <pfps> Andy: proposal is to define a value space for rdf:langString and do some more fixups

Andy Seaborne: proposal is to define a value space for rdf:langString and do some more fixups

15:17:55 <pfps> q+

q+

15:17:56 <sandro> andy: rdf:LangString becomes a normal data type except for ...

Andy Seaborne: rdf:LangString becomes a normal data type except for ... [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:17:58 <sandro> q+

Sandro Hawke: q+

15:18:08 <Guus> ack pfps

Guus Schreiber: ack pfps

15:18:09 <PatH> q+

Patrick Hayes: q+

15:18:26 <pfps> peter: what's the difference?

Peter Patel-Schneider: what's the difference?

15:18:50 <pfps> andy: currently abstract syntax doesn't correspond with what systems do

Andy Seaborne: currently abstract syntax doesn't correspond with what systems do

15:18:54 <sandro> andy: in the current rdf-concepts the abstract syntax messes around with the language tags

Andy Seaborne: in the current rdf-concepts the abstract syntax messes around with the language tags [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:19:23 <pfps> peter: the proposal is to do something different for language tags in the abstract syntax

Peter Patel-Schneider: the proposal is to do something different for language tags in the abstract syntax

15:19:53 <pfps> andy: yes, the abstract syntax doesn't mess with language tags

Andy Seaborne: yes, the abstract syntax doesn't mess with language tags

15:20:06 <pfps> andy: then it doesn't have to be built in

Andy Seaborne: then it doesn't have to be built in

15:20:16 <pfps> peter: I don't understand how this can be

Peter Patel-Schneider: I don't understand how this can be

15:20:17 <gavinc> (The abstract syntax DOES mess with language tags today)

Gavin Carothers: (The abstract syntax DOES mess with language tags today)

15:20:52 <Zakim> +EricP

Zakim IRC Bot: +EricP

15:20:53 <sandro> pfps: The way to make langstring not built in, you have to make it not-special.

Peter Patel-Schneider: The way to make langstring not built in, you have to make it not-special. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:21:10 <Zakim> -manu

Zakim IRC Bot: -manu

15:21:14 <pfps> peter: rdf:langString is special the only way to make it not built-in is to make it completely non-special

Peter Patel-Schneider: rdf:langString is special the only way to make it not built-in is to make it completely non-special

15:21:33 <sandro> PatH: The weird part is that it has two strings in its lexical space instead of one.

Patrick Hayes: The weird part is that it has two strings in its lexical space instead of one. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:21:46 <pfps> peter: the proposal is then to make it half-special?

Peter Patel-Schneider: the proposal is then to make it half-special?

15:22:07 <pfps> andy: and also to remove lowercasing of language tags in the abstract syntax

Andy Seaborne: and also to remove lowercasing of language tags in the abstract syntax

15:22:15 <pfps> sandro:  what is the difference?

Sandro Hawke: what is the difference?

15:22:19 <pfps> q+

q+

15:22:25 <Guus> ack sandro

Guus Schreiber: ack sandro

15:22:39 <pfps> sandro: what are the testcases? number of triples? entailment? anything else??

Sandro Hawke: what are the testcases? number of triples? entailment? anything else??

15:22:56 <ivan> issue-131?

Ivan Herman: ISSUE-131?

15:22:56 <trackbot> ISSUE-131 -- How can one create an RDF dataset without being a web server? -- open

Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-131 -- How can one create an RDF dataset without being a web server? -- open

15:22:56 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/131

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/131

15:23:03 <Guus> ack PatH

Guus Schreiber: ack PatH

15:23:08 <pfps> peter:  it appears to me that the number of triples will change but no entailments will

Peter Patel-Schneider: it appears to me that the number of triples will change but no entailments will

15:23:11 <sandro> { <a> <b> "chat"@fr, "chat"@FR }

Sandro Hawke: { <a> <b> "chat"@fr, "chat"@FR }

15:23:20 <sandro> that's two triples in andy's proposal

Sandro Hawke: that's two triples in andy's proposal

15:23:33 <ericP> q?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: q?

15:23:47 <pfps> pat: several issues: 1/ upper vs lowercase 2/ unspecial 3/ built-in

Patrick Hayes: several issues: 1/ upper vs lowercase 2/ unspecial 3/ built-in

15:24:15 <pfps> pat: we could not require rdf:langString in RDF entailment

Patrick Hayes: we could not require rdf:langString in RDF entailment

15:24:21 <gavinc> sandro, that's two triples in raptor, 4store, jena, rdflib, ...

Gavin Carothers: sandro, that's two triples in raptor, 4store, jena, rdflib, ...

15:24:37 <ericP> q+ to add minor issues around case-preserving and impl burden of BCP-sensitive normalization

Eric Prud'hommeaux: q+ to add minor issues around case-preserving and impl burden of BCP-sensitive normalization

15:24:51 <Guus> ack pfps

Guus Schreiber: ack pfps

15:24:52 <pfps> pat: I don't care about 1, we can't do 2, and I don't care about 3

Patrick Hayes: I don't care about 1, we can't do 2, and I don't care about 3

15:25:50 <pfps> peter: the hardest thing from the point of Semantics is to handle language tags specially

Peter Patel-Schneider: the hardest thing from the point of Semantics is to handle language tags specially

15:26:14 <pfps> andy: isn't there special stuff for language tags?

Andy Seaborne: isn't there special stuff for language tags?

15:26:17 <pfps> peter: not really

Peter Patel-Schneider: not really

15:26:21 <Guus> ack ericP

Guus Schreiber: ack ericP

15:26:21 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to add minor issues around case-preserving and impl burden of BCP-sensitive normalization

Zakim IRC Bot: ericP, you wanted to add minor issues around case-preserving and impl burden of BCP-sensitive normalization

15:26:44 <pfps> eric: implementers care about case

Eric Prud'hommeaux: implementers care about case

15:27:00 <gavinc> It isn't one triple! It's two triples, and I can't see any implementations that make it one :P

Gavin Carothers: It isn't one triple! It's two triples, and I can't see any implementations that make it one :P

15:27:06 <pfps> sandro: rdf 1.0 is confusing

Sandro Hawke: rdf 1.0 is confusing

15:27:21 <gavinc> I agree, RDF 1.0 says it's one.

Gavin Carothers: I agree, RDF 1.0 says it's one.

15:27:23 <pfps> andy: rdf 1.0 is clear that language tags are lowercased

Andy Seaborne: rdf 1.0 is clear that language tags are lowercased

15:27:30 <gavinc> But everyone doesn't.

Gavin Carothers: But everyone doesn't.

15:27:39 <pfps> andy: and there is a test case

Andy Seaborne: and there is a test case

15:27:53 <PatH> andy is muffled hard to hear

Patrick Hayes: andy is muffled hard to hear

15:27:57 <AZ> In RDF 1.0: "Plain literals have a lexical form and optionally a language tag as defined by [RFC-3066], normalized to lowercase"

Antoine Zimmermann: In RDF 1.0: "Plain literals have a lexical form and optionally a language tag as defined by [RFC-3066], normalized to lowercase"

15:28:12 <sandro> sandro: I don't think the language in the RDF 1.0 clear at all.

Sandro Hawke: I don't think the language in the RDF 1.0 clear at all. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:28:13 <pfps> eric: we could say normalize to BCP recommended form (which would be annoying)

Eric Prud'hommeaux: we could say normalize to BCP recommended form (which would be annoying)

15:28:53 <pfps> andy: i would like there to be two triples

Andy Seaborne: i would like there to be two triples

15:29:09 <gavinc> 4store is... amusing in this area ;)

Gavin Carothers: 4store is... amusing in this area ;)

15:29:12 <sandro> "Note: The case normalization of language tags is part of the description of the abstract syntax, and consequently the abstract behaviour of RDF applications. It does not constrain an RDF implementation to actually normalize the case."

Sandro Hawke: "Note: The case normalization of language tags is part of the description of the abstract syntax, and consequently the abstract behaviour of RDF applications. It does not constrain an RDF implementation to actually normalize the case."

15:29:13 <pfps> andy: if there is one, then there is the issue of what surface form to keep

Andy Seaborne: if there is one, then there is the issue of what surface form to keep

15:29:47 <Zakim> +??P7

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P7

15:29:53 <manu> zakim, I am ??P7

Manu Sporny: zakim, I am ??P7

15:29:53 <Zakim> +manu; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +manu; got it

15:29:53 <pfps> andy: but it is required to act as if it did normalize

Andy Seaborne: but it is required to act as if it did normalize

15:30:47 <ericP> q?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: q?

15:30:52 <pfps> sandro: so in practice it's like 1 and 01 - sparql let's implementations vary

Sandro Hawke: so in practice it's like 1 and 01 - sparql let's implementations vary

15:31:21 <pfps> andy: the SPARQL test cases are quite specific

Andy Seaborne: the SPARQL test cases are quite specific

15:31:43 <gavinc> One reason why it "works" in RDF 1.0 is that XML says that language tags can only be BCP 47 valid language tags, which includes case... but is not the SAME case as the abstract syntax expects

Gavin Carothers: One reason why it "works" in RDF 1.0 is that XML says that language tags can only be BCP 47 valid language tags, which includes case... but is not the SAME case as the abstract syntax expects

15:31:48 <sandro> andy: SPARQL weasels around this by saying you can normalize on l0ading.

Andy Seaborne: SPARQL weasels around this by saying you can normalize on l0ading. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:31:54 <PatH> q+

Patrick Hayes: q+

15:32:15 <Guus> ack PatH

Guus Schreiber: ack PatH

15:32:21 <sandro> sandro: I think we need to do something wealy like that in RDF as well.

Sandro Hawke: I think we need to do something wealy like that in RDF as well. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:32:48 <pfps> pat: where is the SPARQL test case that give two results, for 1 and 01

Patrick Hayes: where is the SPARQL test case that give two results, for 1 and 01

15:33:04 <pfps> andy: it depends on where and whether entailment is in force

Andy Seaborne: it depends on where and whether entailment is in force

15:33:06 <sandro> andy: In a FILTER then value matching applies; in graph matching 1.0 and 1.00 look different.

Andy Seaborne: In a FILTER then value matching applies; in graph matching 1.0 and 1.00 look different. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:33:22 <pfps> pat: in practice then normalizing is wrong

Patrick Hayes: in practice then normalizing is wrong

15:33:32 <ericP> -> http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/REC-rdf-concepts-20040210/#dfn-plain-literal Plain literals have a lexical form and optionally a language tag as defined by [RFC-3066], normalized to lowercase.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: -> http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/REC-rdf-concepts-20040210/#dfn-plain-literal Plain literals have a lexical form and optionally a language tag as defined by [RFC-3066], normalized to lowercase.

15:33:47 <pfps> sandro: no, systems can normalize on input, so you can't figure out what is going on

Sandro Hawke: no, systems can normalize on input, so you can't figure out what is going on

15:33:47 <sandro> sandro: So what about SPARQL UPDATE?    Insert 1.0 does it match 1.00 ???

Sandro Hawke: So what about SPARQL UPDATE? Insert 1.0 does it match 1.00 ??? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:33:49 <PatH> q-

Patrick Hayes: q-

15:33:57 <ericP> q+

Eric Prud'hommeaux: q+

15:34:03 <pfps> guus:  can we make progress?

Guus Schreiber: can we make progress?

15:34:35 <gavinc> I am happy with the proposal as is.

Gavin Carothers: I am happy with the proposal as is.

15:34:43 <pfps> sandro: compatability says we be permissive

Sandro Hawke: compatability says we be permissive

15:35:06 <ericP> q-

Eric Prud'hommeaux: q-

15:35:10 <pfps>  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013May/0224.html

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013May/0224.html

15:36:02 <ericP> +1 to Andy's #2

Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1 to Andy's #2

15:36:09 <pfps> guus: second part of the proposal? any changes?

Guus Schreiber: second part of the proposal? any changes?

15:36:26 <ericP> +1 to the *spirit* of Andy's #2

Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1 to the *spirit* of Andy's #2

15:36:40 <gavinc> It already IS an exceptional case.

Gavin Carothers: It already IS an exceptional case.

15:36:40 <pfps> pat: this doesn't fit into the standard datatype model, so it has to be exceptional

Patrick Hayes: this doesn't fit into the standard datatype model, so it has to be exceptional

15:37:11 <gavinc> +1 to defining the value space of langString

Gavin Carothers: +1 to defining the value space of langString

15:37:15 <pfps> andy: this is all about the value space of lang string

Andy Seaborne: this is all about the value space of lang string

15:37:42 <AndyS> sec 8::    IL(E)= < sss, ttt >  ==>  IL(E)= < sss, lowercase(ttt) >

Andy Seaborne: sec 8:: IL(E)= < sss, ttt > ==> IL(E)= < sss, lowercase(ttt) >

15:37:50 <pfps> pat: langString is a special case, and there is no proposal to make it not so

Patrick Hayes: langString is a special case, and there is no proposal to make it not so

15:38:00 <sandro> PROPOSED: The value space of rdf:langString is the set of pairs (string, LC-lang) where LC-lang is a lowercase language tag.

PROPOSED: The value space of rdf:langString is the set of pairs (string, LC-lang) where LC-lang is a lowercase language tag.

15:38:14 <ivan> +1

Ivan Herman: +1

15:38:16 <davidwood> +1

David Wood: +1

15:38:17 <Souri> +1

Souripriya Das: +1

15:38:18 <ericP> +1

Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1

15:38:18 <sandro> +1 (but this doesn't settle everything about langString)

Sandro Hawke: +1 (but this doesn't settle everything about langString)

15:38:23 <gkellogg> +1

Gregg Kellogg: +1

15:38:30 <gavinc> +1 (someone else gets to go see if langMatchs is unhappy with that)

Gavin Carothers: +1 (someone else gets to go see if langMatchs is unhappy with that)

15:38:31 <Guus> +1

Guus Schreiber: +1

15:38:33 <AndyS> +1

Andy Seaborne: +1

15:38:52 <gavinc> Yay

Gavin Carothers: Yay

15:38:53 <gavinc> :D

Gavin Carothers: :D

15:40:09 <AZ> In RDF 1.1 Concepts: "Language-tagged strings have the datatype IRI http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#langString. No datatype is formally defined for this IRI because the definition of datatypes does not accommodate language tags in the lexical space. The value space associated with this datatype IRI is the set of all pairs of strings and language tags."

Antoine Zimmermann: In RDF 1.1 Concepts: "Language-tagged strings have the datatype IRI http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#langString. No datatype is formally defined for this IRI because the definition of datatypes does not accommodate language tags in the lexical space. The value space associated with this datatype IRI is the set of all pairs of strings and language tags."

15:40:52 <AndyS> concepts : 3.3 and notes on sec 5

Andy Seaborne: concepts : 3.3 and notes on sec 5

15:42:51 <davidwood> q+

David Wood: q+

15:43:48 <pfps> -1, because this proposal doesn't match the discussion

-1, because this proposal doesn't match the discussion

15:44:01 <pfps> eric: let's make them two triples

Eric Prud'hommeaux: let's make them two triples

15:44:15 <pfps> sandro: no, the proposal is to make the number of triples ambiguous

Sandro Hawke: no, the proposal is to make the number of triples ambiguous

15:44:44 <AZ> The proposal makes <s> <p> "aaa"@EN and <s> <p> "aaa"@en two triples

Antoine Zimmermann: The proposal makes <s> <p> "aaa"@EN and <s> <p> "aaa"@en two triples

15:45:14 <pfps> eric: so a SPARQL query would give one triple in 2004, but now would be either one or two

Eric Prud'hommeaux: so a SPARQL query would give one triple in 2004, but now would be either one or two

15:45:51 <pfps> eric: the motivation for allowing two triples is that implementations work this way

Eric Prud'hommeaux: the motivation for allowing two triples is that implementations work this way

15:46:08 <pfps> eric:  are there people who are counting on these two triples?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: are there people who are counting on these two triples?

15:46:14 <sandro> PROPOSED: The value space of rdf:langString has the language tag in lower case; the lexical form MAY be converted to lower case (as RDF 1.0 says, but not everyone does).

PROPOSED: The value space of rdf:langString has the language tag in lower case; the lexical form MAY be converted to lower case (as RDF 1.0 says, but not everyone does).

15:46:30 <pfps> eric: if there is enforcement then no one may care

Eric Prud'hommeaux: if there is enforcement then no one may care

15:46:36 <davidwood> q-

David Wood: q-

15:46:42 <sandro> q+

Sandro Hawke: q+

15:47:22 <sandro> PROPOSED: The value space of rdf:langString has the language tag in lower case; in the lexical form, the language tag MAY be converted to lower case (as RDF 1.0 says, but not everyone does).

PROPOSED: The value space of rdf:langString has the language tag in lower case; in the lexical form, the language tag MAY be converted to lower case (as RDF 1.0 says, but not everyone does).

15:47:50 <gavinc> BCP 47 says that en-US is a BCP language tag, and en-us isn't :P

Gavin Carothers: BCP 47 says that en-US is a BCP language tag, and en-us isn't :P

15:47:59 <sandro> eric: BCP-47 says language strings are case insensitive.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: BCP-47 says language strings are case insensitive. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:48:04 <pfps> sandro: BCP-47 says that language tags are case insensitive

Sandro Hawke: BCP-47 says that language tags are case insensitive

15:49:03 <davidwood> Section 2.1.1 of BCP 47:  "At all times, language tags and their subtags, including private use

David Wood: Section 2.1.1 of BCP 47: "At all times, language tags and their subtags, including private use

15:49:03 <davidwood>    and extensions, are to be treated as case insensitive"

David Wood: and extensions, are to be treated as case insensitive"

15:49:49 <davidwood> +1

David Wood: +1

15:49:52 <sandro> +1

Sandro Hawke: +1

15:49:54 <gkellogg> +1

Gregg Kellogg: +1

15:49:57 <ivan> +1

Ivan Herman: +1

15:49:57 <gavinc> +1

Gavin Carothers: +1

15:49:58 <AndyS> +0.5

Andy Seaborne: +0.5

15:50:01 <PatH> +1

Patrick Hayes: +1

15:50:02 <pfps> -0, because this is a change that I don't think needs to be made

-0, because this is a change that I don't think needs to be made

15:50:09 <yvesr> +0.5

Yves Raimond: +0.5

15:50:13 <Souri> q+

Souripriya Das: q+

15:50:20 <sandro> RESOLVED: The value space of rdf:langString has the language tag in lower case; in the lexical form, the language tag MAY be converted to lower case (as RDF 1.0 says, but not everyone does).

RESOLVED: The value space of rdf:langString has the language tag in lower case; in the lexical form, the language tag MAY be converted to lower case (as RDF 1.0 says, but not everyone does).

15:50:21 <AZ> +0.5

Antoine Zimmermann: +0.5

15:50:22 <sandro> q-

Sandro Hawke: q-

15:50:31 <ericP> -> http://tools.ietf.org/html/bcp47#section-2.1.1 "At all times, language tags and their subtags ... are to be treated as case insensitive: there exist conventions for the capitalization of some of the subtags, but these MUST NOT be taken to carry meaning.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: -> http://tools.ietf.org/html/bcp47#section-2.1.1 "At all times, language tags and their subtags ... are to be treated as case insensitive: there exist conventions for the capitalization of some of the subtags, but these MUST NOT be taken to carry meaning.

15:50:34 <Souri> question - if I use { ?x :attrName "color"@en-us} in SPARQL what is the expected output if data presented was: _:b1 :attrName "color"^^EN-us

Souripriya Das: question - if I use { ?x :attrName "color"@en-us} in SPARQL what is the expected output if data presented was: _:b1 :attrName "color"^^EN-us

15:50:36 <ericP> "

Eric Prud'hommeaux: "

15:50:48 <pfps> david: I'll put this into concepts

David Wood: I'll put this into concepts

15:51:25 <sandro> action: david to implement the langString resolution in rdf-concepts AND ENJOY IT

ACTION: david to implement the langString resolution in rdf-concepts AND ENJOY IT

15:51:25 <trackbot> Created ACTION-265 - Implement the langString resolution in rdf-concepts AND ENJOY IT [on David Wood - due 2013-05-29].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-265 - Implement the langString resolution in rdf-concepts AND ENJOY IT [on David Wood - due 2013-05-29].

15:51:30 <gavinc> ericP, Yep :D

Gavin Carothers: ericP, Yep :D

15:51:40 <pfps> guus: section 3 of proposal

Guus Schreiber: section 3 of proposal

15:51:42 <PatH> souri, it has to match in that case.

Patrick Hayes: souri, it has to match in that case.

15:51:55 <gavinc> However the ABNF is case sensitive, and has lovely rules like sgn-BE-NL

Gavin Carothers: However the ABNF is case sensitive, and has lovely rules like sgn-BE-NL

15:52:21 <pfps> andy: section 1 loosens requirements for RDF processors

Andy Seaborne: section 1 loosens requirements for RDF processors

15:52:45 <pfps> andy: there are no conformance issues being raised

Andy Seaborne: there are no conformance issues being raised

15:53:08 <PatH> q+

Patrick Hayes: q+

15:53:13 <pfps> sandro: syntax processors need to be able to handle the special syntax for rdf:langString

Sandro Hawke: syntax processors need to be able to handle the special syntax for rdf:langString

15:53:32 <pfps> andy: Semantics says that processors must recognize rdf:langString

Andy Seaborne: Semantics says that processors must recognize rdf:langString

15:53:36 <Souri> thx Pat, so every RDF implementation is required to at least keep it in the form _:b1 :attrName "color"^^en-us, but optionally, in addition, it may also store _:b1 :attrName "color"^^EN-us.

Souripriya Das: thx Pat, so every RDF implementation is required to at least keep it in the form _:b1 :attrName "color"^^en-us, but optionally, in addition, it may also store _:b1 :attrName "color"^^EN-us.

15:54:01 <pfps> pat: we now have something special that is being stuck in Semantics for rdf:langString

Patrick Hayes: we now have something special that is being stuck in Semantics for rdf:langString

15:54:08 <pfps> andy: but that's already in Section 8

Andy Seaborne: but that's already in Section 8

15:54:16 <pfps> sandro: it already was a test case

Sandro Hawke: it already was a test case

15:54:26 <sandro> So RDF Simple Entailment:    <a> <b> "chat"@FR    ENTAILS   <a> <b> "chat"@fr

Sandro Hawke: So RDF Simple Entailment: <a> <b> "chat"@FR ENTAILS <a> <b> "chat"@fr

15:54:29 <Zakim> -davidwood

Zakim IRC Bot: -davidwood

15:54:43 <pfps> andy: D-entailments include rdf:langString

Andy Seaborne: D-entailments include rdf:langString

15:54:51 <pfps> guus: time

Guus Schreiber: time

15:54:57 <pfps> pat: I don't care either way

Patrick Hayes: I don't care either way

15:55:27 <pfps> guus: part 3?

Guus Schreiber: part 3?

15:56:10 <Guus> ack sandro

Guus Schreiber: ack sandro

15:56:18 <Souri> q-

Souripriya Das: q-

15:56:48 <Guus> ack PatH

Guus Schreiber: ack PatH

15:56:50 <AndyS> PROPOSAL: remove "other than rdf:langString and xsd:string"

PROPOSED: remove "other than rdf:langString and xsd:string"

15:57:03 <sandro> agreed observation:   <a> <b> "chat"@FR    ENTAILS   <a> <b> "chat"@fr     IF you recognize rdf:langString.    Whether that's in RDF Simple Entailment isn't decided yet.

Sandro Hawke: agreed observation: <a> <b> "chat"@FR ENTAILS <a> <b> "chat"@fr IF you recognize rdf:langString. Whether that's in RDF Simple Entailment isn't decided yet.

15:57:10 <AndyS> PROPOSAL: remove "other than rdf:langString and xsd:string" in "RDF processors are not REQUIRED to recognize any datatype IRIs other than rdf:langString and xsd:string"

PROPOSED: remove "other than rdf:langString and xsd:string" in "RDF processors are not REQUIRED to recognize any datatype IRIs other than rdf:langString and xsd:string"

15:57:26 <sandro> +1

Sandro Hawke: +1

15:57:28 <pfps> -1

-1

15:57:29 <Souri> +1

Souripriya Das: +1

15:57:42 <pfps> -0.5

-0.5

15:57:48 <PatH> 0

Patrick Hayes: 0

15:58:02 <Souri> +0

Souripriya Das: +0

15:58:05 <yvesr> 0

Yves Raimond: 0

15:58:07 <ivan> 0

Ivan Herman: 0

15:58:08 <AZ> +0

Antoine Zimmermann: +0

15:58:09 <gkellogg> 0

Gregg Kellogg: 0

15:58:15 <AndyS> (section 7 of MT)

Andy Seaborne: (section 7 of MT)

15:58:19 <pfps> pfps: there is all this stuff for rdf:langString so we should require it

Peter Patel-Schneider: there is all this stuff for rdf:langString so we should require it

15:58:20 <AZ> actually +0.5

Antoine Zimmermann: actually +0.5

15:58:31 <AndyS> +1

Andy Seaborne: +1

15:58:33 <gavinc> +1

Gavin Carothers: +1

15:58:56 <PatH> +1

Patrick Hayes: +1

15:59:21 <gavinc> note that xsd:strings are NOT for binaries

Gavin Carothers: note that xsd:strings are NOT for binaries

15:59:31 <pfps> pfps: there was a discussion last week about using strings for binaries, and this change validates that very, very, very bad usage

Peter Patel-Schneider: there was a discussion last week about using strings for binaries, and this change validates that very, very, very bad usage

15:59:31 <sandro> pfps: The reason to keep it:  discussion last week on xsd:string for binaries.    This change validates that.

Peter Patel-Schneider: The reason to keep it: discussion last week on xsd:string for binaries. This change validates that. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:00:02 <sandro> pfps: If you allow RDF implementations to treat strings as uninterpreted, then you're allowing zeros in them.

Peter Patel-Schneider: If you allow RDF implementations to treat strings as uninterpreted, then you're allowing zeros in them. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:00:13 <sandro> andy: By you can put NUL into integers!

Andy Seaborne: By you can put NUL into integers! [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:00:28 <sandro> pat: It's just an ill formed integer

Patrick Hayes: It's just an ill formed integer [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:00:37 <AZ> BTW, currently, Simple semantics implies:   {<s> <p> "chat"@FR}   does not entail   {<s> <p> "chat"@fr}

Antoine Zimmermann: BTW, currently, Simple semantics implies: {<s> <p> "chat"@FR} does not entail {<s> <p> "chat"@fr}

16:00:53 <sandro> <a> <b> "\u0000"^^xs:int     is a syntactically valid RDF triple.

Sandro Hawke: <a> <b> "\u0000"^^xs:int is a syntactically valid RDF triple.

16:01:14 <Zakim> -manu

Zakim IRC Bot: -manu

16:01:24 <AndyS> q+

Andy Seaborne: q+

16:01:30 <sandro> guus: Not comfortable accepting this resolution yet.

Guus Schreiber: Not comfortable accepting this resolution yet. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:01:35 <pfps> guus: there does not appear to be obvious consensus

Guus Schreiber: there does not appear to be obvious consensus

16:02:00 <pfps> pfps: it would be nice to have some consensus forming via email

Peter Patel-Schneider: it would be nice to have some consensus forming via email

16:02:12 <pfps> guus:  can we have discussion of 131 via email this week

Guus Schreiber: can we have discussion of 131 via email this week

16:02:13 <pfps> topic: Moving Forward

4. Moving Forward

16:02:24 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+

16:02:40 <pfps> guus: we want LC drafts of Concepts and Semantics by mid-June

Guus Schreiber: we want LC drafts of Concepts and Semantics by mid-June

16:03:08 <pfps> andy: W3C team please remind us what happens if we miss the end of the extension

Andy Seaborne: W3C team please remind us what happens if we miss the end of the extension

16:03:14 <pfps> ivan: we will be in deep trouble

Ivan Herman: we will be in deep trouble

16:03:25 <AndyS> ack me

Andy Seaborne: ack me

16:03:35 <gavinc> Turtle? :(

Gavin Carothers: Turtle? :(

16:03:46 <pfps> guus: we need to resolve these issues next week

Guus Schreiber: we need to resolve these issues next week

16:04:16 <pfps> pat: these issues need to implemented in documents, so they need to be implemented

Patrick Hayes: these issues need to implemented in documents, so they need to be implemented

16:04:32 <pfps> ivan: if Semantics isn't ready by the end of next week then I can't review it

Ivan Herman: if Semantics isn't ready by the end of next week then I can't review it

16:04:36 <AndyS> ack ivan

Andy Seaborne: ack ivan

16:04:38 <pfps> guus: is Semantics close?

Guus Schreiber: is Semantics close?

16:04:54 <pfps> pfps: there are a few things that need to be resolved

Peter Patel-Schneider: there are a few things that need to be resolved

16:05:15 <pfps> pat: I hope that these can be fixed on Friday

Patrick Hayes: I hope that these can be fixed on Friday

16:05:22 <AZ> I will review Semantics

Antoine Zimmermann: I will review Semantics

16:06:03 <pfps> guus: the initial review can be done next week

Guus Schreiber: the initial review can be done next week

16:06:11 <pfps> ivan: i will do my best

Ivan Herman: i will do my best

16:06:12 <pfps> topic: PrEfIx

5. PrEfIx

16:06:30 <gavinc> PrEfIx?

Gavin Carothers: PrEfIx?

16:06:46 <ericP> wHaT AbOuT It?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: wHaT AbOuT It?

16:06:55 <PatH> thanks antoine

Patrick Hayes: thanks antoine

16:07:16 <pfps> gavin: we are trying to wrap things up

Gavin Carothers: we are trying to wrap things up

16:07:29 <pfps> sandro: it's not a complete blocking issue

Sandro Hawke: it's not a complete blocking issue

16:07:51 <pfps> gavin: test cases is waiting on a resolution

Gavin Carothers: test cases is waiting on a resolution

16:08:26 <PatH> +1 to whatever y'all are talking about.

Patrick Hayes: +1 to whatever y'all are talking about.

16:08:40 <pfps> sandro: I don't think everyone has looked at it

Sandro Hawke: I don't think everyone has looked at it

16:08:46 <pfps> gavin: please comment on the mailing list

Gavin Carothers: please comment on the mailing list

16:09:06 <pfps> pat: can we get a summary

Patrick Hayes: can we get a summary

16:09:31 <pfps> sandro: we should follow the W3C recommendation

Sandro Hawke: we should follow the W3C recommendation

16:09:38 <pfps> ivan: I don't buy that

Ivan Herman: I don't buy that

16:09:38 <Zakim> -cgreer

Zakim IRC Bot: -cgreer

16:10:06 <pfps> gavin: OK I'll write a message

Gavin Carothers: OK I'll write a message

16:10:19 <Zakim> -yvesr

Zakim IRC Bot: -yvesr

16:11:11 <pfps> gavin: I haven't seen arguments on the positions

Gavin Carothers: I haven't seen arguments on the positions

16:11:12 <pfps> topic: Adjourn

6. Adjourn

16:11:23 <pfps> guus: adjourn !

Guus Schreiber: adjourn !

16:11:24 <Zakim> -PatH

Zakim IRC Bot: -PatH

16:11:26 <Zakim> -GavinC

Zakim IRC Bot: -GavinC

16:11:28 <Zakim> -Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro

16:11:30 <Zakim> -Arnaud

Zakim IRC Bot: -Arnaud

16:11:33 <Zakim> -gkellogg

Zakim IRC Bot: -gkellogg

16:11:37 <Zakim> -AZ

Zakim IRC Bot: -AZ

16:11:38 <Zakim> -Souri

Zakim IRC Bot: -Souri

16:11:42 <Guus> trackbot, end meeting

Guus Schreiber: trackbot, end meeting

16:11:42 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, list attendees

16:11:42 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Guus_Schreiber, pfps, GavinC, Sandro, gkellogg, AndyS, AZ, Ivan, Arnaud, davidwood, yvesr, Souri, +1.707.874.aaaa, cgreer, manu, PatH,

Zakim IRC Bot: As of this point the attendees have been Guus_Schreiber, pfps, GavinC, Sandro, gkellogg, AndyS, AZ, Ivan, Arnaud, davidwood, yvesr, Souri, +1.707.874.aaaa, cgreer, manu, PatH,

16:11:46 <Zakim> ... EricP

Zakim IRC Bot: ... EricP

16:11:50 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, please draft minutes

16:11:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/05/22-rdf-wg-minutes.html trackbot

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/05/22-rdf-wg-minutes.html trackbot

16:11:51 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, bye

16:11:51 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/05/22-rdf-wg-actions.rdf :

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/05/22-rdf-wg-actions.rdf :

16:11:51 <RRSAgent> ACTION: david to implement the langString resolution in rdf-concepts AND ENJOY IT [1]

ACTION: david to implement the langString resolution in rdf-concepts AND ENJOY IT [1]

16:11:51 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/05/22-rdf-wg-irc#T15-51-25

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/05/22-rdf-wg-irc#T15-51-25



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