edit

RDF Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 15 May 2013

Seen
Andy Seaborne, Antoine Zimmermann, David Wood, Eric Prud'hommeaux, Gavin Carothers, Gregg Kellogg, Guus Schreiber, Patrick Hayes, Peter Patel-Schneider, Pierre-Antoine Champin, Sandro Hawke, Souripriya Das, Ted Thibodeau, Yves Raimond
Scribe
Sandro Hawke
IRC Log
Original
Resolutions
  1. to accept the minutes of the 08 May telecon: https://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/rdf-wg/2013-05-08 link
  2. Datasets can use blank nodes as graph names, not just IRIs. link
  3. Publish the latest (https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/json-ld/raw-file/default/spec/WD/json-ld-api/20130516/index.html) JSON-LD Algorithms and API 1.0 specification as a 2nd Last Call link
Topics
14:59:46 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/05/15-rdf-wg-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/05/15-rdf-wg-irc

14:59:48 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world

14:59:50 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 73394

14:59:50 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute

14:59:51 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
14:59:51 <trackbot> Date: 15 May 2013
15:00:05 <AndyS> zakim, this is 73394

Andy Seaborne: zakim, this is 73394

15:00:05 <Zakim> ok, AndyS; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, AndyS; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM

15:00:19 <Zakim> +??P19

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P19

15:00:31 <Zakim> +Guus_Schreiber

Zakim IRC Bot: +Guus_Schreiber

15:00:31 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller]

15:00:36 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P19 is me

Yves Raimond: Zakim, ??P19 is me

15:00:37 <Zakim> +yvesr; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +yvesr; got it

15:00:39 <AndyS> zakim, IPCaller is me

Andy Seaborne: zakim, IPCaller is me

15:00:40 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it

15:01:06 <pfps> zakim, who is on the phone?

Peter Patel-Schneider: zakim, who is on the phone?

15:01:06 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.408.992.aaaa, yvesr, Guus_Schreiber, AndyS

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see +1.408.992.aaaa, yvesr, Guus_Schreiber, AndyS

15:01:09 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software

Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software

15:01:14 <pfps> zakim, aaaa is me

Peter Patel-Schneider: zakim, aaaa is me

15:01:14 <Zakim> +pfps; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +pfps; got it

15:01:17 <Zakim> +Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro

15:01:20 <TallTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

15:01:21 <Zakim> +TallTed; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +TallTed; got it

15:01:23 <TallTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

15:01:23 <Zakim> TallTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: TallTed should now be muted

15:01:37 <TallTed> TallTed has changed the topic to: RDF WG -- current agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2013.05.15

Ted Thibodeau: TallTed has changed the topic to: RDF WG -- current agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2013.05.15

15:02:17 <Zakim> + +1.415.686.aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.415.686.aabb

15:02:25 <gkellogg> zakim, I am aabb

Gregg Kellogg: zakim, I am aabb

15:02:25 <Zakim> +gkellogg; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +gkellogg; got it

15:02:33 <Zakim> + +1.540.538.aacc

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.540.538.aacc

15:02:34 <Zakim> +??P33

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P33

15:02:42 <AZ> Zakim, aacc is me

Antoine Zimmermann: Zakim, aacc is me

15:02:42 <Zakim> +AZ; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AZ; got it

15:03:07 <davidwood> Zakim, aacc is me

David Wood: Zakim, aacc is me

15:03:08 <Zakim> sorry, davidwood, I do not recognize a party named 'aacc'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, davidwood, I do not recognize a party named 'aacc'

15:03:21 <AZ> Zakim, ??P33 is me

Antoine Zimmermann: Zakim, ??P33 is me

15:03:21 <Zakim> +AZ; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AZ; got it

15:03:30 <davidwood> Zakim, aacc is me

David Wood: Zakim, aacc is me

15:03:30 <Zakim> sorry, davidwood, I do not recognize a party named 'aacc'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, davidwood, I do not recognize a party named 'aacc'

15:03:36 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here?

David Wood: Zakim, who is here?

15:03:37 <Zakim> On the phone I see pfps, yvesr, Guus_Schreiber, AndyS, TallTed (muted), Sandro, gkellogg, AZ, AZ.a

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see pfps, yvesr, Guus_Schreiber, AndyS, TallTed (muted), Sandro, gkellogg, AZ, AZ.a

15:03:37 <Zakim> On IRC I see AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, gkellogg, pfps, AndyS, Guus, davidwood, TallTed, manu1, sandro, trackbot, yvesr, manu, ericP, mischat

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, gkellogg, pfps, AndyS, Guus, davidwood, TallTed, manu1, sandro, trackbot, yvesr, manu, ericP, mischat

15:03:56 <davidwood> Zakim, AZ.a is me

David Wood: Zakim, AZ.a is me

15:03:56 <Zakim> +davidwood; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +davidwood; got it

15:04:03 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here?

David Wood: Zakim, who is here?

15:04:03 <Zakim> On the phone I see pfps, yvesr, Guus_Schreiber, AndyS, TallTed (muted), Sandro, gkellogg, AZ, davidwood

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see pfps, yvesr, Guus_Schreiber, AndyS, TallTed (muted), Sandro, gkellogg, AZ, davidwood

15:04:06 <Zakim> On IRC I see AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, gkellogg, pfps, AndyS, Guus, davidwood, TallTed, manu1, sandro, trackbot, yvesr, manu, ericP, mischat

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, gkellogg, pfps, AndyS, Guus, davidwood, TallTed, manu1, sandro, trackbot, yvesr, manu, ericP, mischat

15:04:15 <pfps> q+

Peter Patel-Schneider: q+

15:04:18 <pfps> q-

Peter Patel-Schneider: q-

15:04:29 <AZ> Zakim, mute me

Antoine Zimmermann: Zakim, mute me

15:04:29 <Zakim> AZ should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: AZ should now be muted

15:05:00 <TallTed> q?

Ted Thibodeau: q?

15:05:22 <TallTed> Zakim, unmute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me

15:05:22 <Zakim> TallTed should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: TallTed should no longer be muted

15:05:23 <davidwood> ack AZ, davidwood

David Wood: ack AZ, davidwood

15:05:39 <sandro> zakim, who is muted?

Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is muted?

15:05:40 <Zakim> I see AZ muted

Zakim IRC Bot: I see AZ muted

15:05:42 <davidwood> Zakim, unmute me

David Wood: Zakim, unmute me

15:05:42 <Zakim> davidwood was not muted, davidwood

Zakim IRC Bot: davidwood was not muted, davidwood

15:05:47 <AZ> Zakim, unmute me

Antoine Zimmermann: Zakim, unmute me

15:05:47 <Zakim> AZ should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: AZ should no longer be muted

15:05:48 <Zakim> +Souri

Zakim IRC Bot: +Souri

15:05:50 <TallTed> Zakim, AZ is davidwood

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, AZ is davidwood

15:05:50 <Zakim> +davidwood; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +davidwood; got it

15:06:01 <TallTed> Zakim, who's here?

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's here?

15:06:01 <Zakim> On the phone I see pfps, yvesr, Guus_Schreiber, AndyS, TallTed, Sandro, gkellogg, davidwood.a, davidwood, Souri

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see pfps, yvesr, Guus_Schreiber, AndyS, TallTed, Sandro, gkellogg, davidwood.a, davidwood, Souri

15:06:03 <Zakim> On IRC I see AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, gkellogg, pfps, AndyS, Guus, davidwood, TallTed, manu1, sandro, trackbot, yvesr, manu, ericP, mischat

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, gkellogg, pfps, AndyS, Guus, davidwood, TallTed, manu1, sandro, trackbot, yvesr, manu, ericP, mischat

15:06:11 <AZ> david, sorry to have used your identity

Antoine Zimmermann: david, sorry to have used your identity

15:06:15 <Guus> zakim, mute me

Guus Schreiber: zakim, mute me

15:06:15 <Zakim> Guus_Schreiber should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Guus_Schreiber should now be muted

15:06:49 <AZ> Zakim, davidwood is me

Antoine Zimmermann: Zakim, davidwood is me

15:06:49 <Zakim> +AZ; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AZ; got it

15:07:08 <davidwood> Zakim, davidwood.a is me

David Wood: Zakim, davidwood.a is me

15:07:08 <Zakim> +davidwood; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +davidwood; got it

15:07:11 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?

Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is on the call?

15:07:11 <Zakim> On the phone I see pfps, yvesr, Guus_Schreiber (muted), AndyS, TallTed, Sandro, gkellogg, davidwood, AZ, Souri

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see pfps, yvesr, Guus_Schreiber (muted), AndyS, TallTed, Sandro, gkellogg, davidwood, AZ, Souri

15:08:16 <Zakim> +[GVoice]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[GVoice]

15:08:18 <davidwood> Zakim, pick a victim

David Wood: Zakim, pick a victim

15:08:18 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose TallTed

Zakim IRC Bot: Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose TallTed

15:08:38 <Zakim> +??P37

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P37

15:08:39 <TallTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

15:08:39 <Zakim> TallTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: TallTed should now be muted

15:08:41 <sandro> scribe: sandro

(Scribe set to Sandro Hawke)

15:08:49 <davidwood> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 08 May telecon:

David Wood: PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 08 May telecon:

15:08:49 <davidwood>

David Wood:

15:08:49 <davidwood>    https://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/rdf-wg/2013-05-08

David Wood: https://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/rdf-wg/2013-05-08

15:09:11 <davidwood> RESOLVED to accept the minutes of the 08 May telecon:   https://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/rdf-wg/2013-05-08

David Wood: RESOLVED to accept the minutes of the 08 May telecon: https://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/rdf-wg/2013-05-08

15:09:19 <davidwood> Review of action items

David Wood: Review of action items

15:09:19 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/pendingreview

David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/pendingreview

15:09:19 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open

David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open

15:09:21 <pfps> Minutes are fine

Peter Patel-Schneider: Minutes are fine

15:09:25 <sandro> RESOLVED: to accept the minutes of the 08 May telecon:   https://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/rdf-wg/2013-05-08

RESOLVED: to accept the minutes of the 08 May telecon: https://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/rdf-wg/2013-05-08

15:09:31 <pchampin> zakim, ??P37 is me

Pierre-Antoine Champin: zakim, ??P37 is me

15:09:31 <Zakim> +pchampin; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +pchampin; got it

15:09:53 <davidwood> close ACTION-215

David Wood: close ACTION-215

15:09:53 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-215 Provide update to RDF semantics within two weeks..

Trackbot IRC Bot: Closed ACTION-215 Provide update to RDF semantics within two weeks..

15:09:56 <pfps> That's an old aciton that was done quite some time ago (action 215)

Peter Patel-Schneider: That's an old aciton that was done quite some time ago (ACTION-215)

15:10:21 <davidwood> close ACTION-262

David Wood: close ACTION-262

15:10:21 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-262 Add text to Concepts that bad language tag is a syntax error.

Trackbot IRC Bot: Closed ACTION-262 Add text to Concepts that bad language tag is a syntax error.

15:10:50 <davidwood> ACTION-261?

David Wood: ACTION-261?

15:10:50 <trackbot> ACTION-261 -- Patrick Hayes to add wording to Semantics to again define the merge of two RDF graphs -- due 2013-05-08 -- OPEN

Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-261 -- Patrick Hayes to add wording to Semantics to again define the merge of two RDF graphs -- due 2013-05-08 -- OPEN

15:10:50 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/261

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/261

15:11:28 <davidwood> Topic: LC Drafts of Concepts and Semantics

1. LC Drafts of Concepts and Semantics

15:11:29 <sandro> davidwood: I think action-261 is done.     can you confirm, pfps?

David Wood: I think ACTION-261 is done. can you confirm, pfps?

15:11:29 <sandro> pfps: not at the moment

Peter Patel-Schneider: not at the moment

15:11:45 <davidwood> Sandro's suggestion: blank nodes as named graph labels

David Wood: Sandro's suggestion: blank nodes as named graph labels

15:11:45 <davidwood> 	▪	http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013May/0120.html

David Wood: ▪ http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013May/0120.html

15:12:53 <pfps> action 261 is done - I'm marking it pending

Peter Patel-Schneider: ACTION-261 is done - I'm marking it pending

15:12:53 <trackbot> Error finding '261'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/users>.

Trackbot IRC Bot: Error finding '261'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/users>.

15:13:46 <davidwood> Sandro: The RDF WG decided that the thing in the forth column in a quad can only be a URI (not a literal or a blank node).  However, the LDP WG highlighted that blank nodes could be useful to define a PATCH.

Sandro Hawke: The RDF WG decided that the thing in the forth column in a quad can only be a URI (not a literal or a blank node). However, the LDP WG highlighted that blank nodes could be useful to define a PATCH. [ Scribe Assist by David Wood ]

15:13:54 <sandro> { :insert <#i>;  :delete <#d> }   <#i> { .... }   <#d>  {.... }

{ :insert <#i>; :delete <#d> } <#i> { .... } <#d> {.... }

15:15:35 <pfps> does SPARQL consume datasets?  If not, there is no problem at all

Peter Patel-Schneider: does SPARQL consume datasets? If not, there is no problem at all

15:15:42 <sandro> q?

q?

15:15:53 <sandro> queue=

queue=

15:16:16 <pfps> q?

Peter Patel-Schneider: q?

15:16:19 <yvesr> that answers it, thank you :)

Yves Raimond: that answers it, thank you :)

15:16:49 <pfps> q+

Peter Patel-Schneider: q+

15:16:53 <AndyS> Clarification -- PATCH /url does give a base

Andy Seaborne: Clarification -- PATCH /url does give a base

15:17:31 <sandro> davidwood: Andy, thoughts?

David Wood: Andy, thoughts?

15:18:13 <davidwood> Andy: A PATCH must be defined against a base URL.

Andy Seaborne: A PATCH must be defined against a base URL. [ Scribe Assist by David Wood ]

15:20:14 <sandro> AndyS: I don't think this is a great way to do patch, as seen in my example

Andy Seaborne: I don't think this is a great way to do patch, as seen in my example

15:21:39 <sandro> sandro: I'm not saying this a complete design for patch, just that we should enable it.

Sandro Hawke: I'm not saying this a complete design for patch, just that we should enable it.

15:22:19 <sandro> davidwood: this isn't about LDP -- it's about whethe we are over-constraining RDF by forcing the 4th column of a quad to be a URI

David Wood: this isn't about LDP -- it's about whethe we are over-constraining RDF by forcing the 4th column of a quad to be a URI

15:22:20 <yvesr> davidwood, +1 - it's not really about PATCH, but about overconstraining RDF

Yves Raimond: davidwood, +1 - it's not really about PATCH, but about overconstraining RDF

15:22:44 <sandro> davidwood:So what are your thoughts on that, Andy?

David Wood: So what are your thoughts on that, Andy?

15:23:15 <sandro> andy: I don't have the energy to go through all this again

Andy Seaborne: I don't have the energy to go through all this again

15:23:38 <sandro> andy: I want this WG to finish.   I'd rather not re-open this issue, because it could take a lot of time.

Andy Seaborne: I want this WG to finish. I'd rather not re-open this issue, because it could take a lot of time.

15:23:49 <sandro> eric: Let's just nail it today?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: Let's just nail it today?

15:24:30 <sandro> andy: Lack of practical experience.

Andy Seaborne: Lack of practical experience.

15:24:48 <sandro> andy: I'm trying not to re-open the whole debate

Andy Seaborne: I'm trying not to re-open the whole debate

15:25:24 <sandro> davidwood: Can I please have a list of all resolutions, Sandro?

David Wood: Can I please have a list of all resolutions, Sandro?

15:26:28 <sandro> davidwood: I think this would help JSON-LD.     it might help LDP.  I take Andy's point.

David Wood: I think this would help JSON-LD. it might help LDP. I take Andy's point.

15:27:21 <ericP>  _:statement1 dc:author "Bob" . _:statement1 { :TheMoon :madeOf :greenCheese } .

Eric Prud'hommeaux: _:statement1 dc:author "Bob" . _:statement1 { :TheMoon :madeOf :greenCheese } .

15:27:21 <sandro> greg: There's no open issue.     It was about use of JSON-LD for transient messages.

Gregg Kellogg: There's no open issue. It was about use of JSON-LD for transient messages.

15:27:31 <sandro> greg: which is much like this.

Gregg Kellogg: which is much like this.

15:27:41 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/JSON-LD_Features_at_Risk#Allow_blank_nodes_to_be_used_as_graph_name_or_property

David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/JSON-LD_Features_at_Risk#Allow_blank_nodes_to_be_used_as_graph_name_or_property

15:27:43 <gkellogg> gs/greg/gregg/

Gregg Kellogg: gs/greg/gregg/

15:27:56 <sandro> davidwood: It's an At Risk issue, but not recorded in issue tracker.

David Wood: It's an At Risk issue, but not recorded in issue tracker.

15:28:43 <sandro> greg: this would be a great way to resolve the issue.      and I think there is implementation experience.

Gregg Kellogg: this would be a great way to resolve the issue. and I think there is implementation experience.

15:28:48 <sandro> andy: who?

Andy Seaborne: who?

15:29:02 <sandro> greg: python,

Gregg Kellogg: python,

15:29:05 <sandro> greg: ruby

Gregg Kellogg: ruby

15:29:07 <davidwood> q?

David Wood: q?

15:29:27 <gkellogg> Python librdf, Ruby rdf.rb allow bnodes as graph names.

Gregg Kellogg: Python librdf, Ruby rdf.rb allow bnodes as graph names.

15:29:31 <sandro> AndyS: Internally, Jena doesn't care about this.    It doesn't even mind bnodes as predicates.   It's just in publishing data that it gets restricted.

Andy Seaborne: Internally, Jena doesn't care about this. It doesn't even mind bnodes as predicates. It's just in publishing data that it gets restricted.

15:29:34 <davidwood> ack pfps

David Wood: ack pfps

15:29:37 <sandro> eric: same with SWObjects

Eric Prud'hommeaux: same with SWObjects

15:29:51 <sandro> PROPOSED: Datasets can use blank nodes as graph names, not just IRIs.

PROPOSED: Datasets can use blank nodes as graph names, not just IRIs.

15:30:04 <gkellogg> +1

Gregg Kellogg: +1

15:30:04 <sandro> +1

+1

15:30:06 <ericP> +1

Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1

15:30:08 <pfps> >0

Peter Patel-Schneider: >0

15:30:09 <TallTed> +0

Ted Thibodeau: +0

15:30:10 <yvesr> +0.5

Yves Raimond: +0.5

15:30:10 <AndyS> abstain

Andy Seaborne: abstain

15:30:16 <Souri> -1

Souripriya Das: -1

15:30:18 <AZ> 0

Antoine Zimmermann: 0

15:30:30 <sandro> davidwood: Souri?   Explain?

David Wood: Souri? Explain?

15:30:58 <pfps> q+

Peter Patel-Schneider: q+

15:31:33 <pfps> q-

Peter Patel-Schneider: q-

15:31:42 <pfps> q+

Peter Patel-Schneider: q+

15:32:01 <sandro> Souri: The way way interepreted balnk nodes earlier, we used rraph names to distinguish blank nodes.      I understand we're thinking of sharing blank nodes between graphs.   But earlier, they were separate.   That seems to be going away here, and that's going to cause issues.

Souripriya Das: The way way interepreted balnk nodes earlier, we used rraph names to distinguish blank nodes. I understand we're thinking of sharing blank nodes between graphs. But earlier, they were separate. That seems to be going away here, and that's going to cause issues.

15:32:11 <sandro> souri: I could put minus .5

Souripriya Das: I could put minus .5

15:32:22 <sandro> souri: I do not fully understand all the implications.

Souripriya Das: I do not fully understand all the implications.

15:32:24 <davidwood> ack pfps

David Wood: ack pfps

15:32:59 <sandro> pfps: My reading is that for months in the WG, it's been assumed that graphs can share blank nodes.

Peter Patel-Schneider: My reading is that for months in the WG, it's been assumed that graphs can share blank nodes.

15:33:34 <sandro> sandro: agreed.  I'll make that list of resolutions later today.

Sandro Hawke: agreed. I'll make that list of resolutions later today.

15:33:34 <gkellogg> LDP PATCH semantics would probably depend on BNodes being shared between graphs.

Gregg Kellogg: LDP PATCH semantics would probably depend on BNodes being shared between graphs.

15:33:54 <sandro> souri: We are okay with that.  Graph names themselves being blank nodes --- that's not something we had assumed.

Souripriya Das: We are okay with that. Graph names themselves being blank nodes --- that's not something we had assumed.

15:34:01 <ericP> q?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: q?

15:34:23 <sandro> souri: so _:g1 { ... _:b1 ... }     I can interpret    it as _:g1__b1

Souripriya Das: so _:g1 { ... _:b1 ... } I can interpret it as _:g1__b1

15:34:33 <sandro> souri: I'll have to make something unique

Souripriya Das: I'll have to make something unique

15:34:36 <sandro> q+

q+

15:34:36 <ericP> q+

Eric Prud'hommeaux: q+

15:35:10 <AZ> RDF datasets do not have a formal semantics, so graph IRI, graph bnode, graph literal or graph schmuck, it's all equally meaningless...

Antoine Zimmermann: RDF datasets do not have a formal semantics, so graph IRI, graph bnode, graph literal or graph schmuck, it's all equally meaningless...

15:35:18 <pfps> I'm still confused.  Is the issue *just* consing up unique IDs for blank nodes within datasets?

Peter Patel-Schneider: I'm still confused. Is the issue *just* consing up unique IDs for blank nodes within datasets?

15:35:29 <sandro> souri: It's almost like graph is a name for a set of triple, ...   and then that itself becoming a blank node, it causes some difficulty in implement.  I'm fine with it -- I just wanted to let you know it's not the most desirable thing.

Souripriya Das: It's almost like graph is a name for a set of triple, ... and then that itself becoming a blank node, it causes some difficulty in implement. I'm fine with it -- I just wanted to let you know it's not the most desirable thing.

15:35:49 <davidwood> ack sandro

David Wood: ack sandro

15:35:49 <yvesr> one of the main issue i can see is around scoping - would probably need some semantics to back it up

Yves Raimond: one of the main issue i can see is around scoping - would probably need some semantics to back it up

15:36:25 <davidwood> ack ericP

David Wood: ack ericP

15:36:26 <sandro> sandro: you can skolemize

Sandro Hawke: you can skolemize

15:36:31 <sandro> sandro: I'm hearing consensus.

Sandro Hawke: I'm hearing consensus.

15:36:43 <sandro> eric: if souri has new information, he could bring that forward.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: if souri has new information, he could bring that forward.

15:36:49 <TallTed> there was a -1

Ted Thibodeau: there was a -1

15:37:40 <Souri> -0

Souripriya Das: -0

15:37:45 <sandro> RESOLVED: Datasets can use blank nodes as graph names, not just IRIs.

RESOLVED: Datasets can use blank nodes as graph names, not just IRIs.

15:38:06 <pfps> actions on concepts and semantics?

Peter Patel-Schneider: actions on concepts and semantics?

15:38:06 <davidwood> Language tags

David Wood: Language tags

15:38:06 <davidwood> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013May/0048.html

David Wood: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013May/0048.html

15:38:11 <sandro> davidwood: Souri (or anyone else) if you find a new problem with this, please say so.

David Wood: Souri (or anyone else) if you find a new problem with this, please say so.

15:38:23 <sandro> topic: Language Tags

2. Language Tags

15:38:25 <ericP> YES!!!! a thousand n3 use cases are now available to RDF

Eric Prud'hommeaux: YES!!!! a thousand n3 use cases are now available to RDF

15:38:30 <AndyS> q+ to ask we do this properly - change SPARQL

Andy Seaborne: q+ to ask we do this properly - change SPARQL

15:38:38 <davidwood> ack AndyS

David Wood: ack AndyS

15:38:38 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask we do this properly - change SPARQL

Zakim IRC Bot: AndyS, you wanted to ask we do this properly - change SPARQL

15:39:22 <gkellogg> TriG, NQuads

Gregg Kellogg: TriG, NQuads

15:39:30 <yvesr> ericP, now to re-vote on literal as subjects :)

Yves Raimond: ericP, now to re-vote on literal as subjects :)

15:39:57 <sandro> eric: Andy, do you want the action?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: Andy, do you want the action?

15:40:20 <sandro> I don't see how it's an erratum.

I don't see how it's an erratum.

15:41:29 <sandro> sandro: oh, okay, if it's called "RDF Dataset" in SPARQL, then yes, we should bring them into line some day.

Sandro Hawke: oh, okay, if it's called "RDF Dataset" in SPARQL, then yes, we should bring them into line some day.

15:41:31 <pfps> So the solution is to add a note in Concepts indicating that there is a difference.

Peter Patel-Schneider: So the solution is to add a note in Concepts indicating that there is a difference.

15:41:32 <sandro> sandro: so errata is fine.

Sandro Hawke: so errata is fine.

15:42:22 <AndyS> ACTION Andy Raise an erratum against SPARQL for the resolution that graph names can be blank nodes.

Andy Seaborne: ACTION Andy Raise an erratum against SPARQL for the resolution that graph names can be blank nodes.

15:42:22 <trackbot> Created ACTION-263 - Raise an erratum against SPARQL for the resolution that graph names can be blank nodes. [on Andy Seaborne - due 2013-05-22].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-263 - Raise an erratum against SPARQL for the resolution that graph names can be blank nodes. [on Andy Seaborne - due 2013-05-22].

15:42:36 <sandro> action: sandro find the history and suggest phrasing for Concepts

ACTION: sandro find the history and suggest phrasing for Concepts

15:42:36 <trackbot> Created ACTION-264 - Find the history and suggest phrasing for Concepts [on Sandro Hawke - due 2013-05-22].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-264 - Find the history and suggest phrasing for Concepts [on Sandro Hawke - due 2013-05-22].

15:42:37 <Zakim> +PatH

Zakim IRC Bot: +PatH

15:43:21 <davidwood> Language tags as values

David Wood: Language tags as values

15:43:21 <davidwood> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013May/0112.html

David Wood: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013May/0112.html

15:44:25 <sandro> andy: There are couple of ways to treat language tags.     We could take it out of the syntax issues.

Andy Seaborne: There are couple of ways to treat language tags. We could take it out of the syntax issues.

15:44:45 <sandro> andy: that would license systems to decide how much of langstring to implement

Andy Seaborne: that would license systems to decide how much of langstring to implement

15:45:12 <sandro> andy: I think the same can be done for xsd:string -- it doesnt have to be required for implementation

Andy Seaborne: I think the same can be done for xsd:string -- it doesnt have to be required for implementation

15:45:19 <sandro> q+

q+

15:46:14 <sandro> davidwood: People seem to like this proposal

David Wood: People seem to like this proposal

15:46:29 <sandro> davidwood: Need a WG resolution on this

David Wood: Need a WG resolution on this

15:46:34 <davidwood> q?

David Wood: q?

15:46:39 <davidwood> ack sandro

David Wood: ack sandro

15:47:35 <sandro> sandro: I THINK this just enables a new kind of implentaiton, not changing any existing ones

Sandro Hawke: I THINK this just enables a new kind of implentaiton, not changing any existing ones

15:47:42 <pfps> q+ to disagree with Sandro

Peter Patel-Schneider: q+ to disagree with Sandro

15:47:48 <sandro> davidwood: I don't think this changes any existing implementations

David Wood: I don't think this changes any existing implementations

15:47:57 <pfps> q+ ... in a certain way

Peter Patel-Schneider: q+ ... in a certain way

15:48:31 <ericP> -> http://www.w3.org/mid/20130507104945.GB28539@w3.org a proposal for language tag case-insensitivity which does not lean on a value mapping

Eric Prud'hommeaux: -> http://www.w3.org/mid/20130507104945.GB28539@w3.org a proposal for language tag case-insensitivity which does not lean on a value mapping

15:48:31 <davidwood> ack pfps

David Wood: ack pfps

15:48:31 <Zakim> pfps, you wanted to disagree with Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: pfps, you wanted to disagree with Sandro

15:48:36 <PatH> q+

Patrick Hayes: q+

15:48:38 <sandro> AndyS: I don't think it would license some behaviors that are currently not licensed, that's all.

Andy Seaborne: I think it would license some behaviors that are currently not licensed, that's all.

15:49:05 <sandro> pfps: So suppose I want to write a new impl, and I don't lile lang tag string, so I'm going to ignreo @

Peter Patel-Schneider: So suppose I want to write a new impl, and I don't lile lang tag string, so I'm going to ignreo @

15:49:12 <sandro> sandro: that wouldnt be a turtle parser

Sandro Hawke: that wouldnt be a turtle parser

15:50:04 <AndyS> ericP -- it's ambiguous as to one or two triples in the graph -- depends when tests are done.

Andy Seaborne: ericP -- it's ambiguous as to one or two triples in the graph -- depends when tests are done.

15:50:11 <sandro> s/AndyS: I don't think/AndyS: I think/
15:50:42 <ericP> q?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: q?

15:51:17 <sandro> sandro: I agree, using rdf:PlainLiteral would be simpler here, but that would involve some backtracking.

Sandro Hawke: I agree, using rdf:PlainLiteral would be simpler here, but that would involve some backtracking.

15:51:17 <ericP> q+ to ask how the plain literal solution is a solution

Eric Prud'hommeaux: q+ to ask how the plain literal solution is a solution

15:51:40 <sandro> pat: It would get rid of the strange characters.

Patrick Hayes: It would get rid of the strange characters.

15:52:05 <davidwood> ack PatH

David Wood: ack PatH

15:52:16 <davidwood> ack ericP

David Wood: ack ericP

15:52:16 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to ask how the plain literal solution is a solution

Zakim IRC Bot: ericP, you wanted to ask how the plain literal solution is a solution

15:52:21 <PatH> q-

Patrick Hayes: q-

15:52:21 <sandro> david: We might run a few minutes late that noon ET.

David Wood: We might run a few minutes later than noon ET.

15:52:47 <AndyS> LANG("abc") = xsd:string and LANG("abc"@en) = rdf:langString.

Andy Seaborne: LANG("abc") = xsd:string and LANG("abc"@en) = rdf:langString.

15:52:48 <pfps> my proposal is that Concepts doesn't have plain literals any more, instead it uses rdf:plainLiteral

Peter Patel-Schneider: my proposal is that Concepts doesn't have plain literals any more, instead it uses rdf:plainLiteral

15:52:52 <davidwood> s/late that/later than/
15:53:29 <sandro> eric: The problem we're trying to address is that historically, if you give triples with "foo"@EN, rdf said that was the same literal as "foo"@en.   And BCP-47 says DONT case-fold.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: The problem we're trying to address is that historically, if you give triples with "foo"@EN, rdf said that was the same literal as "foo"@en. And BCP-47 says DONT case-fold.

15:54:38 <sandro> pfps: rdf:PlainLiteral says the lexical space of the language tag does not have to be lower case, but the value space has it lower case.

Peter Patel-Schneider: rdf:PlainLiteral says the lexical space of the language tag does not have to be lower case, but the value space has it lower case.

15:54:45 <Zakim> -AndyS

Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS

15:54:51 <sandro> we lost AndyS

we lost AndyS

15:55:08 <AndyS> zakim cut me off!

Andy Seaborne: zakim cut me off!

15:55:13 <sandro> pat: the std rules of lang tags would only apply to the value space

Patrick Hayes: the std rules of lang tags would only apply to the value space

15:55:33 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller]

15:55:39 <AndyS> zakim, IPCaller is me

Andy Seaborne: zakim, IPCaller is me

15:55:39 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it

15:56:51 <sandro> eric: Proposal that the value space have case folded version.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: Proposal that the value space have case folded version.

15:57:01 <sandro> eric: Proposal that these are compared case-insentively

Eric Prud'hommeaux: Proposal that these are compared case-insentively

15:57:20 <sandro> sandro: I don't think we understand this well enough right now.

Sandro Hawke: I don't think we understand this well enough right now.

15:57:34 <sandro> pat: look at rdf:PlainLiteral spec carefully during the week.

Patrick Hayes: look at rdf:PlainLiteral spec carefully during the week.

15:57:40 <davidwood> q?

David Wood: q?

15:57:56 <sandro> AndyS: SPARQL already committed to something, because we understood there would not be rdf:LangString any more.

Andy Seaborne: SPARQL already committed to something, because we understood there would be rdf:LangString .

15:58:06 <sandro> s/not//
15:58:10 <ericP>  2013-05-15T15:52:47Z <AndyS> LANG("abc") = xsd:string and LANG("abc"@en) = rdf:langString.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: 2013-05-15T15:52:47Z <AndyS> LANG("abc") = xsd:string and LANG("abc"@en) = rdf:langString.

15:58:15 <sandro> s/any more//
15:58:33 <pfps> what is rdf:langString??

Peter Patel-Schneider: what is rdf:langString??

15:59:03 <sandro> AndyS: rdf:langString is in the docs right now.

Andy Seaborne: rdf:langString is in the docs right now.

15:59:09 <davidwood> Topic: LC for  JSON-LD API

3. LC for JSON-LD API

15:59:13 <sandro> Pat: It's the ugly thing I want to get rid of.  :-)

Patrick Hayes: It's the ugly thing I want to get rid of. :-)

15:59:19 <AZ> Andy, you mean DATATYPE("abc"@en) = rdf:langString  ?

Antoine Zimmermann: Andy, you mean DATATYPE("abc"@en) = rdf:langString ?

15:59:35 <ericP> i was wondering that

Eric Prud'hommeaux: i was wondering that

15:59:58 <sandro> greg: Briefly, the LC2 of JSON-LD-API failed to be published yesterday, so we have a chance to put in two AT RISK notes.

Gregg Kellogg: Briefly, the LC2 of JSON-LD-API failed to be published yesterday, so we have a chance to put in two AT RISK notes.

16:00:12 <sandro> ... one on Native Types for Number, and other other for how to reference Futures

... one on Native Types for Number, and other other for how to reference Futures

16:00:26 <AndyS> Currently, rdf:langString is defined in MT (I'm suggesting it go in concepts with the other datatypes mentioned)

Andy Seaborne: Currently, rdf:langString is defined in MT (I'm suggesting it go in concepts with the other datatypes mentioned)

16:00:28 <gkellogg> PROPOSAL: Publish the latest (

PROPOSED: Publish the latest (

16:00:29 <gkellogg> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/json-ld/raw-file/default/spec/WD/json-ld-api/20130516/index.html

Gregg Kellogg: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/json-ld/raw-file/default/spec/WD/json-ld-api/20130516/index.html

16:00:30 <gkellogg> ) JSON-LD Algorithms and API 1.0 specification as a 2nd Last Call

Gregg Kellogg: ) JSON-LD Algorithms and API 1.0 specification as a 2nd Last Call

16:00:31 <gkellogg> Working Draft on Thursday, May 16th 2013 with a Last Call period of 3 weeks.

Gregg Kellogg: Working Draft on Thursday, May 16th 2013 with a Last Call period of 3 weeks.

16:00:35 <sandro> .. we don't want to resolve these today, just put in the issue markers.

.. we don't want to resolve these today, just put in the issue markers.

16:01:00 <sandro> PROPOSAL: Publish the latest (https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/json-ld/raw-file/default/spec/WD/json-ld-api/20130516/index.html) JSON-LD Algorithms and API 1.0 specification as a 2nd Last Call

PROPOSED: Publish the latest (https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/json-ld/raw-file/default/spec/WD/json-ld-api/20130516/index.html) JSON-LD Algorithms and API 1.0 specification as a 2nd Last Call

16:01:01 <sandro> +1

+1

16:01:06 <gkellogg> +1

Gregg Kellogg: +1

16:01:11 <TallTed> +1

Ted Thibodeau: +1

16:01:12 <AndyS> +1

Andy Seaborne: +1

16:01:13 <PatH> +1

Patrick Hayes: +1

16:01:16 <yvesr> +1

Yves Raimond: +1

16:01:19 <pfps> +0 (lacking knowledge)

Peter Patel-Schneider: +0 (lacking knowledge)

16:01:34 <davidwood> +1

David Wood: +1

16:01:49 <davidwood> FEATURE AT RISK 1 is handled by https://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/rdf-wg/2013-05-15#resolution_2

David Wood: FEATURE AT RISK 1 is handled by https://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/rdf-wg/2013-05-15#resolution_2

16:01:50 <sandro> RESOLVED: Publish the latest (https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/json-ld/raw-file/default/spec/WD/json-ld-api/20130516/index.html) JSON-LD Algorithms and API 1.0 specification as a 2nd Last Call

RESOLVED: Publish the latest (https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/json-ld/raw-file/default/spec/WD/json-ld-api/20130516/index.html) JSON-LD Algorithms and API 1.0 specification as a 2nd Last Call

16:02:07 <sandro> davidwood: Any other business?

David Wood: Any other business?

16:02:07 <davidwood> Topic: AOB

4. AOB

16:02:15 <davidwood> q?

David Wood: q?

16:02:21 <pfps> no comments on semantics

Peter Patel-Schneider: no comments on semantics

16:02:29 <Zakim> -pfps

Zakim IRC Bot: -pfps

16:02:41 <sandro> ADJOURNED

ADJOURNED

16:02:48 <Zakim> -Souri

Zakim IRC Bot: -Souri

16:02:49 <Zakim> -gkellogg

Zakim IRC Bot: -gkellogg

16:02:49 <Zakim> -davidwood

Zakim IRC Bot: -davidwood

16:02:50 <Zakim> -TallTed

Zakim IRC Bot: -TallTed

16:02:50 <Zakim> -Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro

16:02:52 <Zakim> -AZ

Zakim IRC Bot: -AZ

16:02:53 <PatH> byeee

Patrick Hayes: byeee

16:03:11 <Zakim> -Guus_Schreiber

Zakim IRC Bot: -Guus_Schreiber

16:03:13 <Zakim> -AndyS

Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS

16:03:33 <Zakim> -ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: -ericP

16:05:02 <Zakim> -pchampin

Zakim IRC Bot: -pchampin

16:31:52 <AndyS> There are no action items for working through the consequences of the resolution on blank nodes for named graphs.

(No events recorded for 26 minutes)

Andy Seaborne: There are no action items for working through the consequences of the resolution on blank nodes for named graphs.

16:37:59 <Zakim> -PatH

(No events recorded for 6 minutes)

Zakim IRC Bot: -PatH

16:42:59 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, yvesr, in SW_RDFWG()11:00AM

Zakim IRC Bot: disconnecting the lone participant, yvesr, in SW_RDFWG()11:00AM

16:43:00 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended

16:43:00 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.408.992.aaaa, Guus_Schreiber, yvesr, AndyS, pfps, Sandro, TallTed, +1.415.686.aabb, gkellogg, +1.540.538.aacc, Souri, AZ, davidwood, ericP, pchampin, PatH

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were +1.408.992.aaaa, Guus_Schreiber, yvesr, AndyS, pfps, Sandro, TallTed, +1.415.686.aabb, gkellogg, +1.540.538.aacc, Souri, AZ, davidwood, ericP, pchampin, PatH

17:40:49 <gavinc> While we're at it why not just replace all the nodes with blank nodes?

(No events recorded for 57 minutes)

Gavin Carothers: While we're at it why not just replace all the nodes with blank nodes?

17:41:18 <gavinc> Everything is a variable! It's very unconstrained

Gavin Carothers: Everything is a variable! It's very unconstrained

17:41:20 <gavinc> Everything is a variable! It's very unconstrained

Gavin Carothers: Everything is a variable! It's very unconstrained

17:55:01 <AndyS> Hmm - this will be the only place where [] is allowed and is a unique parse term - everywhere else it's a possible blankNodePropertyList

(No events recorded for 13 minutes)

Andy Seaborne: Hmm - this will be the only place where [] is allowed and is a unique parse term - everywhere else it's a possible blankNodePropertyList

17:55:47 <AndyS> (well, I find it interesting)

Andy Seaborne: (well, I find it interesting)

18:03:33 <gavinc>  _:b {_:b rdf:value _:b } is very strange.

(No events recorded for 7 minutes)

Gavin Carothers: _:b {_:b rdf:value _:b } is very strange.

18:08:37 <AndyS> Currently, I'm merely updating RIOT parser without putting extra code on the critical path for NT and NQ.

(No events recorded for 5 minutes)

Andy Seaborne: Currently, I'm merely updating RIOT parser without putting extra code on the critical path for NT and NQ.



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